106. Best Of: Using Skills From Improv to Master Your In-The-Moment Communication
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Across our many Think Fast, Talk Smart episodes, a few themes have emerged repeatedly. Focus on your audience and their needs. Be present in the moment. Listen intently. Be concise and clear. The seeds of these ideas can be heard way back in our very first episode. As we approach our hundredth, we thought it would be both fun and educational to go back to episode number one, where I chat with my colleagues, friends,

and improvisation mentors Dan Klein and Adam Tobin. I especially love when we talk about being open to offers people make and being willing to be obvious. I invite you to listen in and learn from this best of episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. When we think about our communication at work, we tend to focus on our presentations and meeting contributions.

that we know we should spend time preparing and practicing for. But if you think about it, most of our professional communication is spontaneous in nature. It's providing feedback in the moment, answering questions, introducing people. These spur-of-the-moment communication events can be as important, if not even more important, than our planned high-stakes communications. For most people, these impromptu situations are quite challenging.

I am thrilled to invite two experts and good friends here today to talk about how we can become more comfortable and confident in these spur-of-the-moment situations. Let me start by introducing Adam Tobin. Adam's a senior lecturer in film and media studies here at Stanford University, and he's a teacher in continuing studies. Dan Klein is also a lecturer at Stanford, both at the Graduate School of Business, as well as theater and performance studies. And Dan also is an instructor at the d.school.

Adam and Dan, thanks for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here. We all are involved with situations where the students we teach or the clients we coach feel challenged by spontaneous speaking. Can you share a little bit about where you think that challenge comes from? Why is this type of speaking so hard?

There's a moment when we feel that the pressure is on. It's like everyone's attention is on us and we have to perform. And the moment we have that self-conscious awareness, it's like our brain starts to short circuit. We go into a different set of systems. We're thinking about ourself. We're thinking about how it looks, how we did.

Sometimes we see this with improvisers specifically. There's another problem where if the pressure's on and you think you did really well, that also short circuits your ability to be present and in the moment. And it's amazing. People can shut down or sometimes people can talk too much. Yeah. Or they can get, you know, their voice can get high or their voice can get low. It's like their mind body is running away from them. It's doing everything except kind of

what they need to do in the moment. But we are expert at that because for most of the time we're improvising. You know, nobody wakes up and writes the script of the day and everyone else goes along with that script. We're actually experts at improvising. It's just when we get put on the spot

And when Adam says we are experts, he doesn't mean me and Adam. He means like humanity. We are experts. We are experts. That's true. You are. That's why you're here. We just want to make sure. But everyone. We all are experts. And we see this in lots of high stakes situations. I think of athletes who for years have been practicing what they do. But in that high stakes situation, that pitch, that putt, where all of a sudden they fail or they struggle because of that over awareness that you're talking about.

You know, before we start getting into specific tips and tricks about how to manage in these situations, I really think a lot of what you guys teach has to do with mindset and approach. Would you guys like to talk about that approach that you take? One of my favorite stories is that

When I first moved to the Bay Area before GPS, that's how ancient it was. I would go to San Francisco and every time I would get lost every single time. And it wasn't until the seventh or eighth time that I got lost. And I looked up and I said, I don't know where I am, but I've been lost here before. And if I just make a right and a right, I'll get back on the freeway and I know how to get home. And.

For me, that was a mindset shift. That was, I don't need to have all the answers. I need to be present enough to kind of find a way to solve the answers. You know, I need to be okay enough, comfortable enough being uncomfortable that I can plug in. And

And our mentor, Patricia Ryan Madsen, who wrote this great book, Improv Wisdom, when I told her that story, she said, no, no, no, you've missed the point. The point is to get lost on purpose and discover what you find. And for me, that was another mindset shift. I love that. I've been trying to run a little bit more in my life. This is I probably started running after GPS. So.

And I find that it's really exciting to go out and try to get a little bit lost. Right. I was running near my house the other day in Oakland, and I was going to go the way I know to get home. And I thought, I'll just get a little bit lost. And I turned right, and literally half a block, they made a native plants park in between two streets. It was 10 yards away from where I was. Right.

And I had a walk in nature completely transported. And I would have never had that if my mindset wasn't get a little bit lost, like take the slightly less traveled path.

And in speaking, if you're present, if you go just a little bit someplace you hadn't gone before, it may feel terrifying at first, but you're only going to discover new things that way. That I think is really the crux of what hinders a lot of people in these situations is that ability to let go. There is such pressure to do it right. The expectation is that I've been asked to do this or I need to do this.

And I want to do it right. And I know in your experience and in a lot of the improvisation that you bring to the work you do, letting go of the getting it right is really important. So can you share some ideas about how we get out of our own way? There's a wonderful saying that comes from the world of improv, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but this notion of dare to be dull.

And when I have the audacity to be in front of my MBA students and say, dare to be dull, and it sucks the air right out of the room because I immediately have to follow it up with why. And would one of you like to help articulate why daring to be dull is so liberating? It's exactly that. It's liberating because it takes the pressure off. We are so driven to be interesting. Our mentor, Patricia Ryan Madsen,

She had a mentor in improvisation is Keith Johnstone. So he's like our grand mentor. And he great wise. He said these like our fear of being seen as unoriginal is one of the most inhibiting fears that we carry.

And so the idea of like dare to be dull or be obvious, be obvious is the most powerful creative mantra that there is. He said, when you're trying to be original, you sound like everyone else trying to be original. But when you're obvious, you're yourself. And that's what's genuine. And if the obvious thing you say is what everyone else was thinking, then they'll just think you're brilliant for saying it. And if your obvious thing is different, then that's actually genuinely original. Right.

Right. And that obvious thing is is kind of your voice. Right. But it's also it's also true. You're not putting on any kind of fake version of yourself to try to impress people. You're actually dealing with what's going on, what's in your head, what your reaction to the thing is. There's another message that we got from Keith Johnstone and from Patricia that I've personally found really powerful.

And I use it in my teaching all the time. And that is shoot for average and fail cheerfully.

And when I tell students that, especially here at Stanford, these high achieving students, I can tell that they don't really believe it. They laugh, they're sort of guarded, and they're still sort of holding themselves back. But over the course of 10 weeks of practicing doing this, of doing it with other people, of getting the experience of that playful support, being able to fail and have it still work out, I start to see the armor crack. I

I see them kind of emerge and show up as themselves, which is something that they've been holding back. There's so much pressure to be outstanding and original and break the paradigm. The truth is that we can't actually get to those spaces if we're protecting ourselves. We need to allow ourselves to play and discover and be authentic and

I think those skills can be learned over time. You know, you can, as Dan said, the more you do it, the more you tap into something kind of true instead of trying to wow everybody with this false version. I really think this is critical to take the time to learn.

understand how much pressure we put on ourselves and how much judging we do of ourselves that gets in the way of us actually being able to do what it is we want to do. And that notion of reflecting on what happens if it doesn't go well, accepting the failure, really is liberating.

We are certainly not saying that this is the only way to communicate. All of us agree. There are situations where we need to do what we traditionally do, prepare, plan, the wording has to be right, but to flex these other muscles and be able to have another approach so we can choose in certain situations to turn off

the evaluation and the judging in Act in Another Way. Well, in Patricia's book, in the opening, she says, you know, when I go to a surgeon, I certainly want a surgeon who is prepared and schooled up and knows what they're doing. But I also want, if something goes wrong, for them to be able to be present and improvise. You know, also, I would like that surgeon to be able to talk to me about what's going on. Yeah.

I think if you get expert enough in your material, then that frees you up to be more connected, more conversational because you know deep down, I know this. Right. You know, sometimes we'll do an exercise where we'll have somebody tell the story of their name, just some story about their name, first name, middle name, last name, whatever, or tell a story about what they did this weekend. And

remind them that when you're an expert on the material, you don't have to have every word perfectly staged. If you build a comfort in your material, then you can be a little more free-flowing in how you present it. Being present-oriented is really critical in what I'm hearing us discuss. And I know a lot of improvisation requires or invites that kind of present orientation. So I'd

I'd like to hear from each of you a bit about how present orientation helps in spontaneous moments. And also let's include in that this notion of listening. Many of us in a Q&A situation where people are asking us questions,

or asking for our feedback feel that in that moment we are being challenged, that we are being evaluated. Attacked. Attacked in some cases. And I know improv has a lot to say about this notion of offers and opportunities. Do you want to make mention of that? I think that reframing these situations as a positive versus a negative can make a big difference.

Yeah. I mean, one of the improvisers mantras is that there are always offers coming at us from all different directions and that we should notice those offers. So an improviser goes on stage with absolutely nothing planned and just the posture of their partner coming on stage will say, ah, that person is just a little slumped or that person is a little proud.

And I'll notice that and I'll treat it as an offer. And now I'll have a sense of what we're beginning to do on stage. So there are these offers everywhere. And our audiences, for sure, are giving us offers all the time. Yeah. In the moment when an audience member is challenging, when they ask a question that might have an aggressive tone to it, something that might put you on the defensive, especially if you're not that confident about that.

that specific area. One of the things that I learned as a facilitator, I was taught and I've seen it happen over and over again. That person is the most engaged. That's what they're showing you. They are engaged and they are the best opportunity. It's not a fight. You're not going to fight with them, but they're an opportunity. So take that energy, get delighted. Whenever something goes wrong on the improv stage,

improvisers just get excited. They love, they get their eyes light up and they go, oh good, what can we do with this? It's live. It's an opportunity. It's new information. I am surprised that I'm the one that has to say this, but yes and. Yeah. Isn't that what it's all about? Yeah. Right. So someone challenging you, someone being sort of negative or a problem, we're instantly reframing that. And I've seen it many times.

The person who has the most challenging question is most likely to be your champion. They're the one who is going to be your biggest supporter when you work with them and are able to engage and turn around. The other thing I learned was when they ask a question that has a lot of energy behind it, don't answer. Say, tell me more or say, what thoughts do you have about that? Like, let them keep talking because sometimes

You're just misinterpreting that negative energy. It's just they're fired up in another way. And the other thing, this is a story I tell in the class that Matt and I teach together. There was a time where I was pitching a TV show and the person I pitched it to said to me, tell me why this isn't a sci-fi story.

And I thought, this isn't a sci-fi story. It never occurred to me. Like, maybe there's some element. And I said, why do you say that? And it turned out that that person's boss had been burned by the last three sci-fi stories that they had made. What this person was doing was actually asking me for ammunition that he could then take to his boss's

to sell my story. You know, he was solving a problem that I didn't even know existed. And so rather than seeing that question as an attack, see it as this person is bringing information from like outside of my headspace, right? Like I wasn't aware of this. By bringing that question, he's bringing his concerns and he was actually trying to help me.

What I love so much about that story is it brings together many of the things we talked about. You had to be present in the moment to see that that's what was going on. You had to take the offer that he was giving you and see it as an offer, that there was something of value there. So you really had to be present. You had to listen and have that mindset. And I did paraphrase. I said, or I asked a question back, as Dan said, you know, tell me more. Why? Where is this coming from?

And it turned out the deeper source was something useful to both of them. I think for folks who find themselves in situations where they're handling objections or taking questions, this advice and guidance is critical. You have to listen. You have to be open. You have to see how this is now an opportunity to expand and extend versus to just defend and entrench. I mean, one thing that was very powerful that I learned was from you, Matt, which is

to make this into a conversation rather than a performance. And that mindset shift of I'm presenting, I'm in front of a group, but it's much more like I'm in a conversation where I'm putting information out, you're giving information back, I'm taking that in and moving it forward. And that's a way to kind of demystify or take the anxiety out of these situations. Absolutely. Being conversational always, I think, is beneficial.

We've talked about a lot of really interesting, useful skills that people can use to feel more comfortable speaking in a spontaneous way. I'm curious if both of you would be willing to be a little spontaneous. We end each of these podcasts. No, no, no, no. No, we talked about this. No, not this. Ah.

All right. So indulge me then. I mean, yes and yes. So I'm going to ask each of you three questions that we end each podcast with. So we'll alternate back and forth. So and we'll switch who goes first. So one of you will truly be being spontaneous. So Dan, I'm going to start with you. If you were to capture the best communication advice you've ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be?

Adam already said it earlier. I just want to pull it back in. It is not about you.

Nice. Very good. Adam, same question to you. What five to seven words would be on your slide title? That was yours? It's not about you. It's about them. Oh, okay. Well, we'll give you credit. That's all right. That's all right. So Adam, since you're a little less original, we'll give you the question number two. But I was present and average. And I failed cheerfully. Who is the communicator that you admire and why?

You know who I really enjoy is Trevor Noah, the new, I knew it's been years now, host of The Daily Show. And his autobiography audiobook is just amazing. But what I like about him is a mix of he does seem always present. He seems always him. You know, you really feel his voice, but he can speak clearly.

With authority, he can speak sometimes crassly or glibly or sometimes like really kind of profoundly. And so I enjoy the range that he brings. And yet it's always him. So that authenticity. Yeah. Yeah. And specificity and naturalness. Yeah. I really enjoy watching him. So, Dan, who's a communicator that you admire and why? I'm going to go a little bit obscure here. Almost everything.

20 years ago, I went to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. There's a British comedian storyteller named Daniel Kitson who was hosting, there was an event called Late and Live. And Late and Live was notorious because it was at midnight and the crowd would be packed and it was, and you get a random collection of standup comics and they were handling hecklers, just pure, like that was the culture of that environment. And Daniel was the host of it.

And he was so masterful at playing with what people would shout out. He would disarm them so easily. He was so present, not high status, not aggressive, very calm and comfortable, but so comfortable in his own skin. And he would name exactly what was there in the room. That's cool. That's cool.

That's cool. So usually the third question that I ask, ask the person to give three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe. But I'm going to turn this into a little bit of an improv game. So instead of each of you telling three, let's each, and I'll play as well, say one ingredient that you would put in the recipe. So Adam, what's one thing you would put in? Cinnamon. Oh, excellent. No, I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. Um, yeah.

How do I say this? You build up a trust in yourself over time. And by by putting yourself out there in safer ways and then increasingly you get more and more comfort. I think I think ultimately having some trust in yourself is is a really powerful ingredient. Dan.

Here's something we haven't quite talked about, but it fits in everything. Plan the talk, be ready, do the research, think about the audience and their needs. But in the moment when you're delivering, use an opportunity to pay attention, like meet people beforehand in the room, have some quick conversations, listen to the speaker right before you and use something from the room in your talk. You don't have to change everything you're going to do, but reference something that's come up on that day

in that moment so that your talk is particular to that space and that instant in time. - I like this notion of trust yourself, be ready. And I would add to this,

have fun. We put a lot of pressure on ourselves. I'll never forget when I went for my first martial arts black belt, somebody I trust and a mentor, right before I went to do the test, he looked at me and said, have fun. And I was in total, utter shock. How can this be fun? This is something that's going to be torturous. But taking that approach really made a big difference. I think those three ingredients would make for a wonderful, spontaneous speaker.

Thank you for that. And thank you for joining today. I really hope that people listening in take to heart the advice that we gave. It's about the approach you take. It's about having that open mindset, being present, listening, relying on structure, trusting in yourself. Taken together, those are the skills that will help somebody become a better spontaneous speaker. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you.

You've just listened to Think Fast, Talk Smart, a podcast produced by Stanford's Graduate School of Business. For more information and episodes, visit gsb.stanford.edu or subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts. You can find us on social media at Stanford GSB. Hi, Matt here. Quick question for you. When was the last time you took a step back from your daily life and took the time to invest in yourself and your education?

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