Time After Time • EP215
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We're going to make a podcast. We got season two, episode 15. Oh, yeah. Unopened letter to the world. Now, the original air date for this was February 22nd, 2005. And our synopsis is the students of Tree Hill High make a time capsule to that they expect to be open in 50 years. That's a long time from now. So Anna struggles with what to reveal about herself.

Nathan continues down his downward spiral and Peyton and Jake. Is there anything else to say but that? Go on their first date. I'm blushing just thinking about it. And Brooke really starts to think about what she can do as president. I want to start this by saying this.

I felt the Haley void. Like we knew there were going to be episodes that Haley was not in and joy. It really bothered me a couple episodes ago when you said you felt like they were testing the waters to see if the show could float without you. And to me, the answer is a firm no. Like I, I really miss the energy that you bring and it's,

it balances our dynamic in a way that I think is really important. Yeah. I missed you this episode. Oh, thanks. I missed Haley in this episode too. Being able to be more objective now and sitting back and watching us. Oh, I miss that. There's a, there's a groundedness. There's a grounded thread that she, even in her, even in her confusion about where she is, who she wants to be, that what choices she wants to make, there's still just something grounded about her that,

I think helps with the tone of everything in the show. And yeah, I missed her too. It feels weird. Everybody talking about her and she's not there to defend herself. Like there's never a check in. Yeah. But you know what I will say works. I'm like, oh yeah. The void we're feeling is the chasm that actually gives way for Nathan and Lucas to both be such a mess. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, like these boys are drowning without you, the romantic interest and the best friend. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't like it. And I guess that's why...

It works. You know, shitty guy in charge aside. I guess that's why they were doing it. It like actually works. They're like, what happens if she leaves? And it's like, oh, everything falls apart. Oh, it's sad. Yeah. It's really sad. I cried twice watching this episode. Me too. Guys, there were no secrets left in this episode. It all came spilling out everywhere. It was just beautiful. Like a big mess. A big, beautiful mess. And this was one of those episodes where they really tapped into...

what I think our show did at its strongest, which is when the writing of all the vignettes tied together and you get this bookend of Whitey watching his younger self. Fun fact, that was Barry Corbin's son with a buzz cut playing young Whitey. And we all cried at the end when Whitey cried. But you see all these little moments like, you know,

You call Peyton calls Jacob Fox and then you cut to Karen and she says to Andy, he won't outfox me. And then Brooke and Lucas and Felix are talking about surprises. And then it cuts to Erica Marsh saying surprise. And like all these little things, they did such a good job kind of giving you these slices of life of everyone. And in watching it, you know, the way the fans do, I'm like, look at all these people doing dumb shit without Haley around. Yeah.

Yeah. We need our mother. I mean, aside from Peyton and Jake, that is. You guys were cute. Let's talk about it. I can't even. That scene in the hallway by the lockers. You smell insanely good today. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

I was losing my mind. Hillary's covering her face. And you, by the way, trying to be cool and being like, that's presumptuous. Guys, there was zero acting happening. And like, we were such good friends. He friend zoned me so.

And so I would have to be like, yeah, cool. No, I'm definitely not looking forward to these scenes where we have to kiss. Ew, gross. You're my friend. But everyone, including Greenberg, knew that I thought he was the fucking cat's pajamas. I love you, Hillary. I did. I had a boyfriend at the time. And I remember Greenberg would like fly into Wilmington.

and like, be like, Hey, can I like stash my guitar at your house? I just don't want to leave. And I'd be like, yeah, sure. Whatever you want, dude. Like my house is your house. Cool. My boyfriend would come from work. Be like, who is this? Get it out of here. He's not hanging out here. Um, no Greenberg is that guy that all the girls wanted and all the boys wanted to be. Cause he's just effortlessly cool. He's,

so naturally masculine in that kind of like, in that way that just makes you swoon, like the romance novel way that makes you swoon, the lean in and knowing how to say, but it's not fake. That's a thing. We've seen it so many times, especially on CW shows where guys show up and they do the thing that's supposed to be sexy. They do, they do the lean and the eyebrow goes up and they lean in the doorframe and they're just like, constipated because it's so forced.

It is so natural from him, from BG, man. It just comes right from his gut. It's so good. And it's not, there's no push behind it. He's not trying to prove it. And like, isn't that swagger when somebody just is and it's low key and he's a little quieter than everybody else and it makes you want to lean in and listen. Are we plants? Is that what's happening? Yeah.

Listen, he laughs at himself. And that's what's so great is that when he's like, hey, man, I'm a single dad. I'm a high school dropout. I'm getting ready to go on my first date since my daughter was born. I'm a catch, right? Yeah. You know, that's how he is in real life, too. Like, he is able to laugh at himself in a way that disarms other people. And specifically for Peyton, who does have so many trust issues. Yeah. Who has so many walls up.

What he is able to provide is like a really safe, gentle space. I mean, in the bedroom, Jake finds condoms and it leads them not to having sex, but to having this really vulnerable conversation. And you admitted in the sweetest way that, you know, you're nervous. And he's just like, let's take it slow. Yeah. Oh,

And you said it, Hillary. I literally, I wrote it down. It's in my notes. You said, name a more perfectly scripted boy character. And Joy and I both went, can't. Nope. Honestly, like the boys on Dawson's Creek, the boys on Gossip Girl, you know, on like any of the other shows. I'm sorry. Jake Jagielski gets the trophy. He's king of cool. Yeah. He is indeed. King of cool. You told him he got cool points for that. And he is.

you know, we obviously love Jake Jagielski very much. And it's a lot easier to come in and play an arc of a really great character than it is to like have to do it every single episode for 10 years. You know, the other boys really got put through the ringer because it's like, how do we constantly find interesting things for them to do? And so because Jake was limited to, you know, what is it? Three seasons, you know,

His stuff is really quality. It's really controlled. And his narrative is strong. And he never has to do any like weird B storylines that undermine. I mean, he didn't never have to eat a heart. Yeah. It's like he doesn't have to do any dumb shit. So he can just stay true to who he is without having to be like, what are we going to do this week with Jake Jagielski? But I think that conversation in the bedroom was important. And I, I,

Yeah.

If like we try to portray an accurate version of what teenage sexuality is. And so you can have lost your virginity in high school and still not be like a sex machine. Yeah. You know, the idea that Peyton is, is specific in her, um,

look, I did this. That doesn't mean I'm going to do it every time. Yeah. I love that. I love setting that example. Yeah. And I think that's a really important thing for us to look at because, you know, we listen to you guys and we read all your questions and we read all your feedback. And somebody said something that got us all talking offline about how

You know, some of the ways we've talked about our characters experiences made somebody think like, well, am I supposed to be ashamed that I had sex in high school? This was a question from a listener. And we were like, oh, my God, no, that's not the point. The point when we talk about this stuff is that we as young women.

were being put in sexual situations we didn't agree to by a bunch of men old enough to be our dads. And it felt very upsetting. And it felt like a lot of that, a lot of that stuff, especially for Brooke Davis, certainly at moments for Peyton,

felt like grown male fantasy of teenage girls. And it was hard for us. And I think that's why we find like the Haley and Nathan becoming an intimate sexual couple to be beautiful. And it's exactly why I'm so glad that you said what you just said, Hillary, because it's like,

Look, you do what you want to do, but don't let anyone in the world say that because you're not ready, something's wrong with you or because you have, you're just supposed to be ready for it all the time. Like that's not how people are. Yeah. And it's, it's so nice. I think for us to be getting to a point where these characters are

are becoming more real women with real complex experiences rather than like, you know, tiger beat poster girls in cheerleading uniforms that like, let me rip that shirt off. Yeah. Like, ew, gross. And so suddenly I feel like I'm actually watching teenagers again and it's, it's so sweet. Why do you guys think that all started to happen? I mean, I know we were sort of putting up

fights and having conversations. It wasn't always a fight. Sometimes it was a conversation. There were maybe more women in the writer's room. I'm not sure. Maybe you guys know more about what was going on there than I do. I mean, think that our performances are better when we're doing things that we like. Do you know what I mean? It's like, yeah,

There was a certain element of like, let's play to each other's strengths, whether that's in the writer's room or that's on set. And so I can see in us as young actresses on the show, I can see in the boys, like in Chad's confessional in this episode when he's talking about the brother stuff. Yeah. Chad loves his brothers in real life.

And so Chad talking about brotherhood in this episode, that's real to him. And that performance is great. And so for us, Brooke Davis doing the leadership stuff and like being inspired and being more, that's real. Yeah. And talking about these major trust issues. That's real. You singing is real, you know? So the things that we...

that we got to explore that were closest to us i think are the things that we really thrived in that's a great point so if you really came alive as brooke in in a new way i think not i don't know if it's been i feel like it's been happening over the course of the episodes but i saw something different in this one of and i loved how lucas was encouraging brooke's uh in intellectual growth

And just the way that you, it was seeing Brooke turn this corner in her life and realizing that she's worth so much more, which it's, again, it's not something that we've never seen her have this moment before. I think I was just really recognizing her sink into it for the first time. Do you have memories about this episode or what, how the storyline started to change for you once she became class president? Yeah, totally. I, I felt closer to her and I,

I remember shooting that party. And, you know, Hillary, you were like, why are there all these Goss kids there? That was kind of random. Hot Topic threw up every customer they had in North Carolina. And they're like, send them to the Tree Hill set. We need more beanies. Oh, my God.

We need more ripped fishnets. It was great. And I think, you know, they did it to make it very clear that this wasn't like a normal Treehill party. Everything looked different. The music was different. And...

I remember how sweet it felt. You know, we were at the point where, like, we couldn't totally go out in town anymore without being recognized and, like, things happening. And I don't know. This isn't a judgment of the people who recognize us for being on TV. This is my feelings as an anxious person. That got really hard for me. Like, it gave me a lot of social anxiety. Well, because they expected you to be Brooke Davis out in public. Yeah. Well, yeah, and...

And I think I've done enough pondering on the privilege of being in people's homes with them. But what happens when you're in someone's home with them every week is that you're real familiar to them. But to you, they're still strangers. And it got very strange for me, the combination of

of being familiar and also being Brooke Davis, who was very sexualized, a lot of people would touch me. Yeah. In ways that made me very uncomfortable. And, and,

It took me years to figure out how to start setting boundaries around that stuff with strangers because I like never wanted to ruin anyone's day. But I say all of this to illustrate like it tugged on my heartstrings seeing Brooke and Lucas and Mouth and Anna kind of find their way to that side room at the party. Yeah. And Brooke seeing Erica like that and going, I'm not having a good time.

And I know I've been there and that's not a good time either. It all just felt cathartic for me. And I've so often been the person who's gotten other people home. Yeah. And just like camp counseled my way through things. And yeah, I don't know. I loved...

Being at this point with her where she didn't need to, like, be the party, cheer everyone on, make everyone take shots. She was like, I'm actually just not feeling this, and I want to go home and read a book. And I loved it. She was excited to get home and just flip through that book that Lucas gave her. I know she was. And then the metaphor of, like, the quote that she's reading is,

You know, she's talking about, you know, don't let the things of the past get in the way of the future. And Lucas has given her this beautiful book that is looking to her future, her presidency. And Felix has thrown her this like raging weird party that is very much her past. And these boys are now embodying past and future. And so we know what she's gonna do.

I love it. I love it. And I think she's finding purpose at the same time as Lucas is really reclaiming his nobility. You know, he was a character who lost his way in season one. And here he is being a good guy. And he's showing up for Keith and he's showing up for Nathan. And he's showing up for Hayley even while she's gone. Yeah. And that trajectory for them feels so much more...

rooted in integrity than like two people who just decided to hook up a year ago, you know? Yeah. It's kind of cool. Friends, we all...

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Well, sometimes you have to take a couple steps back. Do you know what I mean? There have been people in my life where it's like, oh, we kissed. And they're like, oh, what an asshole. And then you don't talk for a little while. And then you come back and you slowly rebuild. You know? And it's like, oh, actually, there are things that are lovely about you that don't involve, you know, swap and spit. And let's, you know, get to know those things. And...

I think Brooke and Lucas are a great example of that because it was real hot and heavy, real fast in season one with no real payoff, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I just, I like it. And Brooke Davis invented Uber. I don't know what else to say about it. Girl!

God, it's coming. DWI. Just working on safe rides. What is it? Did you say an app? Just launch that app and we can only hire drivers that were like student government presidents because we know they won't sexually assault you. I'm so weirded out with like, you know, pickup apps because I'm like, you know, I see all the news and I'm just like, this is the worst. Love for a high school senior who just needs like a job to pick me up.

That would honestly be very sweet. Yeah. I just love that she saw Erica in that place. God, and I love Brooke and Erica together. Oh, God. I love them. I said that when we were watching it. Wow. What a great team. They're so good. And this idea that she took Erica home from a party and...

came up with this idea you know yeah she's like there has to be something here so she sits working on her laptop and comes up with a safe ride program i just love it let's talk about this party the felix party is he part of like a secret weirdo club what do you mean because there were so many randos at the party where'd he find all those people he went to the mall he went to atopic

Such a weird scene for a high school party, too, because they also all seemed older. Yeah. In a way. But it wasn't college kids. It was like the coffeehouse kids that do slam poetry. I mean, literally who I hung out with in high school. But in terms of weird parties for Tree Hill. It was weird. Also interesting that Anna had no feedback about it. Like they didn't write anything.

Anna having any sort of commentary or judgment on her brother's friends, which now in hindsight feels like a miss. She's just like, this is...

Felix? Felix is a secret freak, dude. I'm telling you. You're probably right. What if he's dancing with glow sticks in his basement? Like when he like leaves. Or like those flaming balls on strings. But remember he used to also like beatbox when we would be filming. Oh yeah, that's right. He's just downstairs with glow sticks like beatboxing. Beatboxing. Doing weird stuff. Doing weird stuff. What's the weirdest party you ever went to in high school? Ooh.

I wasn't really, I didn't really get invited to a lot of parties. Well, joy, you were working on a soap opera. You were going to like adult things. Yeah. I was a little bit of a grownup. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to remember. Oh, you know what I did do? Um, I remember spending, uh, I hung out with Jessica Beal on her 17th birthday in New York. Cause we were both on, we were both,

Why was I in that circle? I can't remember because I wasn't on the show yet. You were hanging out with the CW, with the WB girls. I think I was 18 or 19. I was on a soap at the time, yeah. And yeah, it was like an all night. I remember going, she had a limo and going to different clubs and-

That sounds fun. She was a sweetheart. I loved her. Jessie Beals. Cool. Yeah. But I just remember it was like at four o'clock in the morning, us, the limo pulling over and going into another club. And I was like, oh guys, I'm going home. I can't, I don't do this stuff. So late.

Yeah, that's tomorrow, Joy. You did a good job. It's tomorrow morning. You did great. I really lasted as long as I could. But I think that's the craziest thing I remember. The wildest night? Wildest night. It was the wildest night you ever had. We hit up a lot of different places, though. It was fun. Yeah, so fun. Or like the weirdest party that you ended up at.

I don't even know. I mean, high school for us, because I went to that little all-girls school, and then there were, like, other all-boys schools around. And so it was always, like, a house party where people would get together, and then it was always a big deal. Like, if we were going from Pasadena and the kids who, like, went to Loyola downtown, there were, like, kids from the west side who went there. You were allowed to go downtown? Well, we wouldn't go downtown. But, like, that's where one of the boys' schools was, and so...

It would be like, oh, the West Side Boys are having a party in the Palisades on Saturday. And I was always the designated driver. I was always like, my mom will kill me. She's scary. I'll drive. And I've got the minivan. Yeah, no, truly. I was just like, pile in the truck. Let's go.

I believe that Maureen is no joke. Your mom is scary, man. My mom is so scary. She's awesome. My mom was just like, if you think you're ever going to get one over on me, you won't. And if you ever get drunk at a party, don't trust your idiot friends. Call me and I'll come pick you up. But you only won't be in trouble if I come pick you up. And I was like, well, I'll get in trouble or my mom will come pick me up. And that's social Sue. So I just can't do this anymore.

I think I got drunk like five times in high school. Oh my God, you got drunk in high school? I wish. I was just outside of Los Angeles. Kids were getting drunk like every night. That's gross. I was like, everyone made fun of me for being such a good intuitive. I remember like when we lived there, people were like, there's kids in LA who do cocaine in middle school. And I was like, well, we gotta get out of here. I never saw any of that. What was your craziest party, Hillary? I never saw any of that, but.

See, we go to the West side. I'm trying to think of crazy part. You know, once I had cast parties after shows, come on, rap parties. Oh my God. I mean, yeah, those weren't necessarily wild. When we moved to Wilmington,

That's when my party game was strong. Because we were like, people had snakes and we were lighting things on fire. It was a whole scene. You came from New York where the bars are open until 4 in the morning on the weekends. You were in the 4 a.m. game. I came from Party Central. I would say the weirdest party I ever went to was when I was 18 or 19 at MTV and Gideon Yago

who did nudes on TRL was a smoke show. I thought you said nudes. Well, I wish. And I was like, where is this going? So Gideon Yago was the Jake Jagielski of MTV. Like the perfect dudes. He went to Columbia. He was so smart. He did like rock the vote. Like he was just so cool, like beyond cool and so handsome.

And he invited me to like a party in an abandoned building. And I was like, okay. Okay. I had a boyfriend, of course. And so we go to this like party, you know, in an abandoned, like,

pretty sure like there was no power in this building. Like it was so weird. And we rolled up and everyone was like rave dancing and it was like really like thumpy music. It also like plastic all over the place, just like on the walls. And it was like a Dexter kill room. It was so fucking weird. But Gideon is the one who introduced me to this scene. And I was like, I have to pretend like, I think this is so cool. He's so cool. Um,

And I remember like leaving being so relieved that I hadn't embarrassed myself. Like when you're in a scene like that, all you want to do is escape without being the butt of the joke. A hundred percent. That's it. That's it. And when you're young and you're at a party, like you're especially that age, you're just insecure. And the person who you put on a pedestal invites you. You're just like, how am I going to get through the next two hours of this?

I have to go. Sometimes in situations like that, it's the anticipation that kills me. Like, oh man, I recently met someone who I just think is so cool. And I've thought that this person was cool forever. I can't tell you guys. Well, I'll tell you. You're going to tell us who. I'll tell you after, but I'm not going to tell the world. And I was like, we have this one thing in common and it's kind of weird. I'm going to come up with a really funny joke and it's going to be great.

And then we met and we had the best conversation. And then she brought up the thing and completely in the, in the most charming way, like undercut the opportunity for the joke. But I was, I had been thinking about this joke for two weeks. And so I told the joke anyway.

You guys, it got so weird. She just kind of looked at me and then I was like, well, you know, I just was I've been thinking about that for a while. And now I sound like a starter. You guys, it got weirder and worse. And so I guess the moral of the story is that my awkward parties were not in high school. They're happening to me now as adults. I'm not allowed. I'm not allowed in public anymore. I'm just not.

I love it so much. Oh, it was bad. We all geek out for different people. Sometimes it's Sophia's mystery friend. Sometimes it's

Gideon Yago slash Jake Jagielski. Gideon Yago in a Dexter murder rave? Joy, who do you geek out for? Who is it? You know who I geeked out about. He lived in an apartment building right next to me. Oh, that's right. Okay, never mind. Anyway, secrets. I cannot talk about that. Secrets. You guys can't know about this stuff. But I did have... Here's one funny thing. I do remember when I lived in New York and I went to a party for...

Nantucket Film Festival because I was doing a reading at the Nantucket Film Festival, which they never invited me back to because I was such a weird, I was so geeky about everybody there.

But I was like, I remember talking, I had this very serious conversation on a balcony of a New York apartment with a massive view over Tribeca, you know, of the river. And I was talking with Fisher Stevens out on the patio for like 20, 25 minutes. And he was great. And then I walked inside and I started talking with Tate Donovan and he gave me his number. Tate's a babe. I know. And then I went home and then the next day I was like, okay, okay.

I'm going to call him. And I did. And I left a message and I thought it was very charming. And then he never called me back. Oh, what? Because I was not charming. I was so awkward and so like babbling over myself and just had no... I bet you weren't, but I feel you. No, let me tell you. The thing about when I...

run into a man that I am attracted to, all my like cool laid back joy goes away. And I suddenly become like, I don't know. My tongue doesn't fit in my mouth. I don't know how to talk. I might, I don't know how to stand. It's just so stupid. What am I do with my body? What are arms? Where do they go? No, forget about it. Well, good. All right. So we're going to throw some really comfortable parties, ladies.

After all the awkward partying we've done. Hey, we should take this opportunity to say we're going to throw a really comfortable party on March 23rd with Brian Greenberg. And we hope all of you join us. I just wanted to throw that in there. It's like a slide into home base. Just, you know, slide it in. And you can get tickets to our wonderful party on loopedlive.com. That's looped, L-O-O-P-L-I-V-E, loopedlive.com.

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Or a creamsicle. You know, when the ice cream truck rolled by, it was, let's get out there and grab some cold treats. Stacked. Yeah, I think what I've realized, sadly, as an adult, is that mostly when I wanted a cold treat, I probably just needed to drink water. I think I'm learning because, you know, summer is heating up, as it does every year. And the thing that gives me my hydration fix and my treat is...

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Now that we've established we're all terribly awkward at parties, I want to talk about my two favorite awkward people at Felix's awkward party. Who? Hands down, Anna and Mal. Oh, they're cute. Oh, yeah. I love them. Their little friendship and them breaking into the school and then deciding. When Mal goes, it would be wrong to watch this, right? Maybe just a couple of minutes. Ah.

I love Brooke's confession that she would be with somebody like Marvin McFadden. Like Senator McFadden. That's priceless. So juicy. Juicy. No idea. Caught me so off guard that when Brooke said it, I felt like I was mouth. And I was like, say what? Yeah. I know.

Oh my God. And then when he says to Anna in the hall at the end, he goes, just don't hit on Brooke. I have enough competition for her. I know that was so cute. Their little friendship. But I just, I thought Daniela did such a gorgeous job in her confessional. And then the opportunity to have it again and for her to lean into who she is and be clearer about herself

Why she doesn't like the labels and how she doesn't have the answers. God, I just thought it was beautiful. Man, I loved that the message of this one thing doesn't define me.

That, I thought, is really powerful and beautiful and so much better than her original confession or moment or whatever you want to call it with that camera. I just read this really wonderful editorial that was posted on Twitter. So I wish I knew who actually wrote it. And it was about gay characters on television.

And how, you know, we're almost 20 years out from when this episode originally aired. And some things have changed, which is awesome. Some things have not. And we're seeing a lot of that right now play out in the news and also in television. You know, there are more gay characters on TV now, but that doesn't necessarily always mean that they're better.

Or that they're well written. And a lot of times gay characters can be used as like the punchline. They can be used as just kind of like checking the box. And that's really frustrating. And so there was a writer who was talking about the gay characters that make an impact on.

to her as a gay writer. And she was like, it's the ones that don't have it figured out. You know, it's, it's the characters that are in their process of discovery and who are a little bit messy. And I appreciate that Anna doesn't just come out swinging, you know, and allows room for discovery because when you are a teenager, you,

I grew up with kids that have known since they were very, very little. And that's awesome. And I want that kind of reassurance and self-awareness for my friends. But there are also people who arrived at it later and really struggled because high school is all about being performative, right? And so if you're not performing something that's true to you, it gets very muddy. So

That process of discovery is really important. And gay characters on TV that take the walk with the viewers are vital. And Anna, I love her for this. And she's just so earnest. There's nothing false about Daniela. No. Yeah, that's true. And I loved the...

I loved the earnestness and the nervousness in her first pass. You know, hopefully 50 years from now, it won't be a big deal. I'm bisexual. If it's still a big deal, surprise. You know, like, what's it all going to mean? And then she realized that that wasn't what she wanted to say. And in that second pass...

After she admitted to mouth, oh, God, when she said, I thought I'd feel liberated. Instead, I'm back here. I'm back in the closet. What a line. Oh, sweet. It was just so sweet. And you realize that it's for so many people in this moment of life, whenever they're coming out happens, it's a little bit of coming out and then a little bit of back to safety and a little bit more. You got to test the waters, man. Yeah. And see if you have a safe person. Yeah.

If not even a group of safe people, do you have one safe person? Yeah. It's so valuable. The message that it's okay to be messy and take your time and explore. You don't have to have everything right and sort it out right now, especially for high school.

This measure of perfection is just so tough. We really, just so you guys at home know, have been trying to get Daniela on this show. Unfortunately, she's kind of in demand right now, and she's working like crazy. She's so busy. Literally every episode, we're like, can we have her now? Can we have her now? Can we have her now? I would have loved to have her for this. I know. Yeah.

I know. I feel like we should talk about this episode with her when she finally can make it work. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be great. It's just so good. And you know, when you said that thing, Joy, you just reminded me when you said it's so important to show people it's okay to be messy. Yeah.

everyone's a little bit of a mess in this episode. And some of it's painful. You know, Nathan's in pain. Some of it's beautiful. You know, Jake's trying to figure himself out and Peyton's trying to figure out if she can be vulnerable with Jake. I'll figure Jake out. I'll figure his ass out. Yeah, you will. Yeah, you will. But I love these kids just trying to figure it out in this time capsule. And...

And even Brooke trying to figure herself out saying, you know, there's this double standard and it sucks. Like guys are allowed to be like this and we're not. And God, I hope you guys fix that because it makes it really hard for the girls to figure it out. Brooke's time capsule monologue is so dope. Yeah, I loved it. We get to do monologues often. It really felt like going back to theater.

Because everyone was assigned, I'm going to do my monologue. Yeah. And you just had to sit in that room and you had to do it all in one pass, you know? And Brooke's monologue was awesome. Because you just see like boss Brooke show up. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

I loved it. I wish Haley had gotten a monologue. You never did one as like a... No, I wish they would have like had me mail one in for the school or something. That would have been fun. What would Haley have said in her monologue? Gosh. Like at that point in her life, she's kissed sweet, sweet pillow lips, Chris Keller. I think Haley would say...

I've always worked really hard and I've always tried to do my best and be the best person that I could be. And I've gone off the example of my parents and so many people around me. And I take all the cautionary tales around me that I see and I put them in my arsenal of what not to do. And I am the person that everyone comes to for advice. And the truth is,

I'm just a scared little girl and I don't have it all figured out. And I needed to take a minute and be reckless and be brave in a way that I've never been and be unsafe. So that's what I'm doing right now. And I really hope that there's forgiveness waiting for me on the other side.

Girl, you don't even need forgiveness. You don't even need it. No, but you know what? Look, people get hurt when you're messy and you have to apologize for that. And that's okay. I think that's part of life. I think actually forgiveness is an incredibly integral part of a functioning society. You have to be able to admit when you've made a mistake because we all do. Yeah. And then be able to forgive when someone has hurt you because you've made a mistake. That is a basic functional need for forgiveness.

for any community. It's a choice. Any person. It's not a magic thing. It's a choice. So when Haley went away, like this is something that's going to hurt Nathan. Everybody says it. You can see it coming. You as Joy, how did you feel about Haley's action of leaving? It was hard. Really? It was hard to...

support her because okay so me as joy when I was 20 or me as joy now well when you were look when I was 20 I'm greedy I mean look yes when I was 20 it was it was hard because I so much was Haley and was trying to do everything right and wanted to set the perfect example and didn't want to do the wrong thing and wanted I just wanted I cared about trying to be perfect

Me now definitely does not care. Done. But, you know, so yeah, bye. Um, I care about living a life of gratitude and, and, um, just soaking up every moment of every day that I can with the people that I love. And, um,

just trying to do the right thing out of, out of a place of gratitude, not out of a place of trying to check off all the boxes. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, that's the major difference. It's very Valjean and Javert. We really boil it. Oh my God. Joy, one of these days we're going to like reenact our Les Mis performance. Oh my God. Wendy,

Remember we did that? We ran through Les Mis in like six minutes. You and I. It was in Haley's apartment. It was for one of our PA's birthdays. Our PA Dawn. It was her birthday. And we were like, we're going to perform the entirety of Les Mis in six minutes during this turnaround. And we did it.

And so one day we'll redo that. But I see what you're saying. Like you're, you're softened now, like Jean Valjean from Les Mis. Yes. It's like, I was hard and I was, you know, angry. And then I was, I was also trying to live, live exactly right and do everything exactly the right way, which is a very legalistic and that sort of religious mindset. And now I think I've changed my, my, uh, I know I've changed my perspective massively. So now it's like, I've,

I feel like I'm living under this umbrella of grace where I'm just like, okay, so I can be a mess. And that's kind of the point. And I'm doing my best. And I'm just super grateful. So that's it. Anyway, we're kind of getting off track. Sorry. But I just feel like watching Haley walk away with Nathan.

I give her space for that now. Back then, it was a little harder to very long-windedly answer your question, Hillary. Yeah, I mean, I can see, like, because we were there. I mean, we were friends with you when we were 22 years old when we were doing this. Yeah. And in my head, I can hear you being like, that's not what a wife does. Like, I would never, you know? Like, you have always been...

firm about justice and like integrity. And so I can see you like reading the script and being like, what the fuck? Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. But I have room for her now. You got to make space for her. You also got to go on tour. So, you know. That's what I was just going to ask. What was it like? Because it's not like you were just sitting at home being like, I can't believe they wrote that. Like you were on tour. Yeah. It was super cool. You were out doing something cool. Was it, but was there like a conflict in it or was tour just so all encompassing and busy? Did you feel like you were betraying James? Yeah.

No, but I missed him. Yeah. No, I didn't feel like I was betraying James. I had a blast. I was having so much fun. I was definitely experimenting with a new side of my life and a part of me that I'd always wanted to see come alive. So it was a great opportunity. It was so much fun. I loved it.

doing stops of the tour and and being witness to that like yeah because they blew you guys out to come introduce the shows yeah i never got to do that no i never got to do that oh i went on the road i was on the tour bus and god i was just like my friends are so freaking cool i was pumped

Where were you? Were you shooting a movie or something? Because I didn't know Hillary because I didn't get to go. We didn't get to go in the beginning. It was only when the show was wrapped and then there were a couple more dates. Right after this season, I went. You were doing Secret Life, weren't you? That summer, weren't you? You were either doing that movie you did with Jason Ritter or the Secret Life of Bees. You were doing a movie that summer. I did the movie. I think you were on a movie. No, I did the movie in Louisiana.

after this where I met Elizabeth Arnois with it was Elizabeth Arnois and Amanda Seyfried because then when we come back like the next year Liz Arnois shows up to play Shelly because I was like I'm in a friend let me have her what was that movie called who knows come on it'll come to me

This is where we need to insert the Jeopardy music. Solstice. It was Solstice. Solstice. We did it. Were you guys sisters? No. Because you all kind of look alike. I played like the super like waspy, wears pastels like rich bitch. Oh, interesting. Incidentally, very similar to the character Hillary plays on Good Sam, which is also coming up on March 23rd. March 23rd.

You're right. The character I play on Good Sam is like the grown up version of who I was in Solstice. Just like, she's very fancy. Like I have a meeting to get to. I skipped a PTA meeting for this. Guys, I have a question. Okay.

How the hell does Dan know how to find everybody everywhere all the time? No, like seriously, I have a theory. Does Dan Scott Motors put trackers in the cars he sells? Did trackers exist in 2005? Yes. Don't you remember there was a big scandal because paparazzi who were working for TMZ had put trackers under Jessica Simpson's car? Oh my God, that's horrendous. No, you guys, this was...

This was a thing. They were doing it to like all. Yes, they were doing it to all these celebrities. There was a whole big lawsuit. I totally remember. And because everyone was like, how are they always finding these people in these like really weird private places? And I'm literally thinking to myself, I mean, I wasn't going to say it, but yes. So I was like, is Dan Scott like OG TMZ? Does he track people? Yeah.

What's going on? He's such a freak. It's just so weird that he shows up in church. Like, first of all, why is Dan go walking into a church? But he doesn't turn his phone off. I know. He's just so like, why would he be in there? Except that he's following Jules. Sometimes our show is so on the nose. It's just like Jules is in a church praying because she's in such a conundrum. Right. Like, all right. Guys, when I feel like shit and I want to talk to Jesus about it,

I'm just going to go to my bedroom. Like, yeah, I'm not going to go into a physical church. Me too. I usually go into the bathroom to cry alone. Magically, every single time I walk into the bathroom, like without fail for the last 11 years, your daughter's got a tracker on you. I love it. But Dan is so devious in this. And I was so unsettled when the boys got out of jail.

And it's clear that Lucas has shared everything with Nathan. Everything. And Dan, who is a man of secrets, says, good, I'm glad you told him. You're brothers. You know, like you should have told him.

And it just felt like really bad foreshadowing. Like, what is Dan going to spill to Keith? To Keith. Who's so vulnerable and so happy right now. Who just bought a house for him in Jules. Oh, he's so fragile. He's so fragile right now. And the boys get arrested just after Dan has said to Jules he's going to let this one go. And she says, I don't believe you. God.

Oh, yeah. It gave me the chills. Would you believe it? I was like, I don't like it. No. I mean, Maria looks so shattered sitting in that scene. I mean, she did a beautiful job just sitting in that church like that. She just looks broken and afraid. And it was like, that is how I felt on the inside when he said that. You told him you should have your brothers. Something bad's going to happen. I feel it.

I feel it coming. And she, in that scene, you guys are... I set you up, girl. I loved it. I'm picking up what you're putting down. No, but she has to express so much in those scenes because it is a little bit of a choppy storyline because it's like we just jump into it sometimes. And she has to express that she really does love Keith, that she's...

really wanting to be with him. She's afraid of this man who originally hired her and now is like lording this information over her head. Like it's a lot to articulate in these scenes without being able to say that. And so Maria with just like a disgusted look is just like, who are you? Yeah. What monster? Who did this to you?

You're terrible. Can we talk about the kiss, though? When Keith takes her by the hair, when he runs his hand through her hair and kisses her. Thanks, Keith. We all needed that tonight. Yeah, we needed the loving touch. Craig's earnest face in that scene. Guys, it makes me cringe. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I want to love it. It makes me run, run, run far, far away. What? What do you mean? What do you mean?

No. No. When a man buys you a house. Ernest, he's so eager. He's so needy. He so needs the validation of that. He's doing it right. It I don't know. Maybe this is my childhood trauma, guys. I don't know. I'm just if I can't deal with it.

It's not your vibe, Joy. I mean, I'm your friend and I know you well enough to know that you like a little like a dirt on the boot. You know what I mean? I like a little grouch. Yeah, I don't know. It's funny to me though because I'm like needy. I didn't read him giving her a house as needy. It feels needy. I'm listening. You're so non-judgmental. It feels needy like

He's not actually just giving it. He's he needs to be the hero. Me, my interpretation of it is that it's actually more about him needing the validation of being the guy who could provide this in this moment, who can show up and be, yes, Hillary, the hero.

And it doesn't just feel natural and authentic and just there. He's just trying so hard to be exactly what she needs that it really puts me off as a romantic interest. Sometimes these writers stress me out because adulting, right?

It takes a lot of effort. And we all know you don't buy a house in like three weeks. Oh, my God. Do you know what I mean? No. It takes so long to close on a house. So long. Also, if you could you imagine if you had just gotten engaged and the person who's supposed to be your partner goes, look at this giant decision I made without you. Yeah, that's a weird move. It's intense. I'd be like, what if I hate this kind of house? Yeah.

Are we stuck here? Like, yeah. Jeffrey had bought a house like two months before I met him. No. And so he had a house. And I was like, okay, I guess I live here now. That's weird. And the second he did a movie here in New York, like we'd been together, I don't know, maybe a year. And he was like, oh, there's a little teeny tiny log cabin for sale. I was like, done. We're moving. Done.

We bought this place and never went back to his house and lunch. Like, never went back. We went and finally, like, sold our shit.

And I walked outside and the neighbors were like, oh, hey, are you the new neighbors? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. We're the old neighbors. We're done here. Bye bye. No, there's a it's an energy thing. When you're in a new relationship, you make decisions together. Together. Yeah. Especially as big as a house. Property decisions take a solid eight months. Like, yeah. Yeah.

They take a long time. Yeah. I had a guy buy me flowers before a date once. Like they arrived a few hours before the date. And I was like, I got to go. I can't do this. No. Joy, I cannot wait for Sophie and I to debrief whoever you become serious about next. Like he'll come to us and we'll be like, hold on, hold on, hold on. No, no. There's some ground rules. So I can't even imagine like buying a house. Somebody buying you a house before you...

Oh my God. Be like, no, no, honey. No, no. The thing that you think is sweet. Don't do that. Don't do it. Don't do it. Ignore her. Oh my God. But that like, let's move on to the Andy then of it all. Cause Andy's showing up in a different way. And I love the way Andy shows up. I love the way he shows up. Yes. Yeah. Danger. He's dangerous.

Yeah, the like, I sleep with a baseball bat in my room, like Italian part of me is like, that's the way I want a man to show up for me. Call and figure out what there is to get to destroy him. I love that Karen is finally on the warpath. She has been so steady and patient and kind and just be generous and setting an example for my son. And now no holds barred, man. She is just letting loose.

I mean, her in that freaking mediation meeting. Your ass Fred boy haircut. Your assiness. That's one of those things for our friends at home that really kills us when you know you're on...

television and you can't say words normal people use when they're angry so you just have to keep saying assy ass ass face because you can't swear and say like you mother fucker you took my kid you know god it's so it was she did it and she did it beautifully straight faced she did that straight faced yeah yeah i can't believe it and paul remained straight faced as well god bless

Someone was hurling that at me. I wouldn't take it. All right, I'm going through my notes here. Guys, we take so many notes when we watch these things. The Tim confessional, God bless Brett Claywell because he has to improvise so much of his stuff because they didn't really write for him. They would just say like, okay, go Brett, you know, and he would.

And I think he's so funny. And I wish that Tim was utilized more because he's a hoot. Okay, what else? Keith kissing Jules. We did that part. Sex is the easy part. Giving your heart to someone is the hard part. I had so many fans like ask me to write that out. Oh, really? Yeah. So I was like, that's a weird one.

Wait, what do you mean? When Peyton's like, sex is the easy part. It's giving your heart to someone that's the hard part. And people are like, can you write this out on a thing at a convention? And I'm like, oh, interesting. Okay. Okay. Hey, where are you going to put this is my question. You know what I want written out from this episode? I want the thing that Anna said at the end when she says, I'm just trying to find my way. I guess that part is timeless. Aw.

I was like, that's what I want fan art of. I want, I'm proud of me too. Oh, I loved that. Yeah. That's good. That was nice. I'm proud of you girls. I'm proud of you girls. And I'm proud of me too. I think we've all come a long way. Well, and then Nathan talking about Haley, if I love her and she loves me, what's there to figure out? Yeah. Yeah.

And I loved Lucas when they finally start talking again. And Luke says, your marriage wins out over some confused kiss. Remember the real Haley? Yes. Even when she's lesser too. Good advice. That gave us all chill bumps. Cause like, you know, nobody's perfect. If this was all about loving perfect people, no one would ever be loved ever. That is, that is good advice as well.

Guys, we've given you a lot to think about today. Hey, what kind of weirdo parties have you guys been to? Will you tell us? Yeah. Oh, my God. Bonus points if you have pictures from your weird high school parties. We want to see them. Tag us.

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You go to eBay. Seriously, there you'll be reunited with that designer goddess of your dreams, that iconic Gucci handbag authenticated by experts no less. And with that in mind, you might let a fun Prada mini bag catch your attention. But at eBay, wandering eyes are always welcome. So if you happen to also find the perfect cheetah print dress to go with that bag, we'll just call it fate, baby. So go ahead and let's take you down a Y2K adventure. Flirt with the endless possibilities, baby tees that say I'm

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The more you love, the more you'll find. From the new to the pre-loved and waiting to be loved. The timeless classics to the one of ones and everything in between. Yeah, eBay. It's the place for new, pre-loved, vintage, and rare fashion. eBay. Things people love. Friends, Symbiotica is a supplement brand that we love and trust. You've heard Hillary say, we're science fair kids. We love research. We love hacking our health. And for me in particular, I never...

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Should we spin a wheel? I think it's time. I think we should. I love Most Likely To. Most likely to say something inappropriate in a time capsule. Ooh. Most likely to become a travel blogger. This actually feels like Erica Marsh to me. I was going to say that. I love that. Yeah. I fully believe it. She's got that little host sensibility. You know she'd plan the shit out of a great itinerary. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I'm here in Italy. Oh my God. Isn't this gorgeous? I love her so much. Catherine Valence is so cool. But in real life, it's Kate Vogel. Kate Vogel went and lived in Paris and like did a whole blog about it. And it's like, that's right. Yeah. She's like a travel blogger and she does cool stuff. Is there anybody else in our cast that does that?

I mean, I feel like we all kind of travel a lot, but I don't know about blogging. Well, Sophia, you're always like, I'm fishing in Montana. I'm in Italy. I'm in Dubai. I do travel a lot, but I don't have the patience to be like, and then I boarded the L train. Like, I don't know. I'm not going to write a book about it. Hey, you know who has adventures and writes about them sometimes? Who? Brian Greenberg.

I knew you were going to say it. Oh, you mean the Brian Greenberg that's coming on our live event on March 23rd? On March 23rd. Just a pregame for our good Sam appearance. March 23rd is going to be a double up with your girls. And I hope you all are ready because it's going to be quite a special, special evening. And guys, next up on this show, we've got

Season 2, episode 16, somewhere a clock is ticking. I'm telling you, it's a ticking time bomb and it's damn Scott. Damn Scott? Am I okay? It's damn Scott! It's damn, damn Scott! We are only calling him damn Scott from now on. Damn Scott! Done. Love you guys, thanks for joining us. Mwah, mwah, mwah. See you next week. Bye!

listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at DramaQueensOTH or email us at DramaQueens at iHeartRadio.com See you next time.

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For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.