This One’s Cursed • EP116
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Guys, welcome to another episode of Drama Queens.

We just watched the worst episode so far. Let's just cut to the chase. I need wine. Yeah. Listen, we're all opening bottles of wine because it's too much to bear. This was episode 16. It was called First Cut is the Deepest. And it's a deep, nasty cut. I'm embarrassed that this is the episode we had Sheryl Crow come on. Me too. Like, she had to have read this script. Oh.

We were so excited when we saw the title for this episode because we're like, yay, it's the Cheryl Crow episode. It aired March 2nd of 2004. The synopsis is that Nathan must choose which parent to live with after Dan and Deb's divorce and Lucas meets a newcomer who has deeper ties to Treehill than expected. This is going to be a long pour, friends. Hold on.

Incidentally, we are drinking our FitVine wine. Thanks, guys. Huzzah. So this, yeah, this was an embarrassing episode. And we got a lot of information that we'd been looking for, but boy, did we have to sift through some shit. Did we?

We got one. We got one piece of information we'd been looking for, and we got a lot of repeat exposition. Yeah. This was like an entire episode that could have been condensed into two scenes, I feel like. There was nothing new. We didn't learn anything new. It was dripping with misogyny, as Sophia said, while we were watching the episode. And...

We introduced this new character played by Emmanuelle Vaugé, who we all love. She's so fun. But it was just seemed kind of so random. And then, of course, we learn at the end that she's Jenny's mom. But that piece of information, plus the Deb piece, were really the only things that we got out of this episode. It's so strange to me. Oh, and the Dan and Keith contract thing. Yeah, yeah. That was so just like blip.

We'll get into all of it. I have trouble with this episode so much, and we're going to get into it. I think it's important to remember it was 2004 at this point, and the rules for what boys did on TV was very, very different back then. So for all the people out there that are like, no!

You're making fun of Lucas. First of all, he's terrible in this episode. But second of all, we are looking at this through a lens of 2021 and we are grown up ladies and we are allowed to just wag our finger at this because it is gross. So let's let's get into it. This felt to me like the height and...

This was, as you said, Hillary, this is the height of trying to compete with Gossip Girl and the OC when they were on the air. Yeah, this was deep OC. It was a lot of salacious. There was, it seemed like maybe not a lot of effort put into the dialogue, which was frustrating. You can tell in the first scene when we're all in the quad. And I think none of us are really, I'm not committing to my dialogue. I'm like, I'm going to say these words because if I don't say them, then we've got to do it again. But yeah.

Yeah. They're so clunky and weird. And it's like, yeah, it was just a strange scripting. I mean, listen, everybody, for you guys who are listening along and you're like, oh, I don't want this to be a downer. I don't want to just listen to you guys complain. I get it. I don't want to complain either. So we're going to find our nuggets in here. We're going to find our golden nuggets and the things that we love. Are we going to go mining? Let's go. Let's go mining. Let's go mining.

But, you know, it is important to acknowledge when something was not up to snuff, like not up to standard. And it makes us appreciate the moments that were great on our show so much more when we can compare it to moments like these. This is a dud. It's really true.

I think there's really something to that. Like, you know, we watch the episode and then we always take a snack break. In tonight's case, it was a let's all grab a glass of wine break. And a quesadilla. And a quesadilla. Don't forget. I was joy...

Before you came back, I was telling Hill that the episode was so terrible that I just stress ate my whole dinner while we were watching it. We watched you do it. I was like, huh? But it's actually really funny because I ran in the other room and Grant was like, how was it? And I was like, it's the worst episode we've done so far. Yeah, by far. If there are any fans out there that think that episode 16 is their favorite episode, please tell us because I'd love to know why. Save us.

I've never heard anyone say that they love this episode. I would like to talk about Deb. The best performance of the episode. Great. She was great. Hands down. Yeah. I was really bothered that this was her big secret, that she...

fell in love with another man while she was married to someone who is abusive, narcissistic, just torturing her mentally, emotionally, constantly, using her son against her. You know, we've seen Dan's behavior. And the fact that as a human being, she would get

Mm-hmm.

he's just so awful to her. I don't know. Help me. Talk me through this. And that they wrote it in a way where it was the thing she could never reveal because she would be the bad one, not the abusive husband who's financially controlling, who, by the way, has almost, if not definitely cheated on her before. Like the idea that it would make her unlovable. She'd be shunned. Even the

Even the way that the writers wrote Nathan's dialogue after the reveal. Nathan's response. Oh, my God. Saying, you are the reason dad is like this with me. You caused him to torture me. You made dad act like this. When we saw Dan's whole family, we saw the episode with Royal. We know where he comes from. We get it. And the fact that, oh, heaven forbid, a woman...

She did. She. Excommunicator. Listen, y'all heard me in the last episode. I don't care. I don't. Yeah. No. I'm cheering on a Deb Scott affair because one, it's her taking her future into her own hands and,

What really bothered me is how Barbara played this really well. Because she walked into the room with Nathan and was terrorized by the idea of having to admit this. And so what that informs us is...

When Dan found out that she was leaving him for someone else, he threatened her so severely that she panicked and came back. This was done in 2003, in a time when you could divorce your husband and still have custody of your child, whether that's shared custody or sole custody, whatever. Yeah.

Um, but whatever he said to her when she announced, I love someone else was enough for her to be so scared. She came back and she said it. Yeah. She said, when I realized I could lose you. Yeah. I came back. Why would she lose him? Like that doesn't make any sense.

But, you know, in whatever way Dan would do what Dan does and threaten her and say she was an unfit mother and tell lies about her. Like we've seen him do it already. That's why he's living with him. She wasn't willing to lose Nathan. And and then for Nathan to say for them to have written, let's clarify, this is the writing. Yeah.

For them to have written that Nathan's reaction is all of this is your fault. Like, oh, I didn't like it. It really, to me, I was like the reek of misogyny in this. It's so gross. Hey, if this is a triggering storyline for anybody that's listening, if you're in a bad spot, there are resources. And the mythology that like you'll lose your kids and that your life is over and you're a scorned woman, you know, like,

all of that's bullshit. You know, there are great resources out there and all you got to do is Google them. Find your safe space, but it is always better to choose safety and happiness and joy. And I hate that Deb didn't do that. And now maybe some of her behavior in the later seasons is making sense because we're seeing the trauma unfold. And,

And I didn't recognize it as a younger viewer. Me either. I didn't know that that is what happens in marriages because I was a kid, you know? Yeah. Meanwhile, Lucas, by the way, gets to... And look, I'm sorry. I know you guys don't want us bagging on Lucas, but look, it's good for a character to have an arc. And right now his flaws are glaring and that's okay. But what bothers me about this whole scenario is on one hand, we're seeing Deb, who is...

And she's, you know, trying to figure out, trying to find her way in life. And she's in an abusive relationship. Let's make no qualms about that. And she's in an abusive relationship.

And then we've got Lucas, on the other hand, who's been playing the field with both girls and gets to kind of get off scot-free. Yeah, they're mad at him, but like his mom is all like, oh, it's okay. Don't worry. Everything's going to be fine. You know? Oh, and he gets to take home a cute girl from a bar and like mess around with her and have fun at the carousel. It's so double standard. This episode is the bullseye.

Boy fantasy. It is absolutely the boy fantasy because Dan, his control over everyone is on full display in this episode. He's got control over Deb. He's got control over Nathan giving him the car. He's a, where's my thank you? He's got control over Lucas because I saved your life. Where's my thank you? And he's got control over Keith now. Yes. And so that's his fantasy. And then Lucas...

From the first scene that we see him, like, run into Brooke, and he's like, we didn't mean to hurt you. Like, first of all. We? We? Bro. Peyton was saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

You pick her at her most vulnerable when she thinks her dad is dead and like get her to admit, okay, yes, I like you. What do you want from me? And then convince her that your soulmate's like, it's gotta be us. And then you drag her into the best friend fight. I just, I own Peyton's mistakes, but like it's a hard one for me to swallow when he's like, hey man, it was me and Peyton this whole time. We were just, you know, plotting against you. Sorry. I think what's hard to watch is

Because like you said, when we were kids trying to figure out how to do this, we were going to work and doing the things written for our characters. So I was like, you're both betrayers and this, that, and the other. But watching it now, I feel for these young girls in like your older aunt who you asked the questions to that you never would ask your mom. I have that kind of energy for all of these girls. And my God, it makes me crazy that...

We didn't see at the time that what was happening. And again, guys, we have to separate anybody's like, you know, personal adoration of the show from what was written for us to do. Yeah. And the writers wrote a very long and very toxic and very gentle pressuring message.

Lucas pressured Peyton in a way that's not okay. A guy who loves you isn't supposed to do that to you. And the betrayal that comes out of that

For him to then throw on her evenly, it does, from girl camp, it feels upsetting. What do you mean when you say the pressure that he's putting on her? Like what Hillary's talking about, how that character was written for episodes and episodes and episodes. We're meant to be together. We're meant to be together. You do want to be with me, right? He goes at her physically, right?

When she is in a state of almost dissociative trauma, her dad might be dead. She has to go to the morgue and see a dead body. Yeah. And it's just so, it's a kind of pressure. It is again, and I know this stuff can be very triggering, but it's,

We've all been taught to fear the scary guy in the alley, the horrible thing that can happen, a sexual assault, like Law & Order SVU style. And what we've come to find is that so many more women who experience that experience it from an intimate partner or as a date rape scenario. And the energy of this, while I'm not saying that that's what was written for Lucas to do to Peyton, what I am saying is it's on the spectrum of intimate partner abuse. Right.

And it's really hard to watch. It's taking advantage of someone who needs a friend really bad. You know, I don't doubt that.

like Lucas and Peyton are endgame they obviously saw something in each other they found safety in each other it is a very messy bumpy road to get there yeah and they're teenagers you're supposed to screw up but what he is doing is not okay in 2021 and he admits it in this episode

bar. You know, we caught so much for calling out Lucas in these episodes for doing this exact thing. And then literally he's in the bar with Nikki and she says, do you got a girlfriend? And he says, well, I had to, you know, like,

So for all of you who gave me an earful, I see you and I raise you a night of the blue post where he admits it in this episode. So I feel vindicated personally. Absolutely. And listen, I like what you said. You know, these two characters, the really magical stuff we see in the beginning is why Lucas and Peyton are end games.

It's why they wind up in a good place. But I think what's hard for us as women, who as we've also talked a lot about, it's 2021, we have more language, more understanding, more data. We understand the nuance of abusive relationships and all of these things, these themes we're talking about in the show. And to look back on it, it's not just like cringey. It's hard to watch because we see things that are toxic and

Being modeled as romantic. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also like, guys, we, you know, we also saw behind the scenes from people who were in the position of writing this stuff, a lot of toxic, um,

Behavior. Behavior, communication, just outlook on the world, outlook on women. We saw all that happening in real time, in real life. And knowing that those people were the ones, some of those people were the ones in charge of writing the material that we were performing. It is a little harder for us to just look at it objectively and say, oh, Lucas was blah, blah, blah, or just this or just that, because we know that.

what was behind the personalities writing some of this stuff. And so if it seems like we're exaggerating or, you know, blowing it out of proportion, we have a behind the, you know, the scrim perspective. The great Oz. Yeah. I was going to say, pay no attention to the man behind the scrim, but please do. Like, please do see, you know. Yeah.

This is a little bit more than just what was on screen. And so I think that's a lot of what we're reacting to. And it's also a good thing for people to think about in real life, too, as they're going about their relationships and scenarios where, I don't know if it's partnerships or friendships or whatever, just to recognize that there's always...

It's always a little bit more than just what you see on the surface. Yeah, that's a good point, Joy. I'm glad that you said that. Well said. Yes. It's, you know, the one... It was so dark for the first few scenes of this episode because we were all just grimacing. And then it was the scene in the cafe with Joy where she says the line, it was just like old times, minus one spleen and I... Ha ha ha!

so good. Like, Hayley did not have anything to do this episode. Everybody else is, like, dealing with, like, chaos and having sex on carousels, and Hayley's just like, hey, you guys, here's show of crows in town. Show of crow. Did you know show of crows in town? I wonder who's gonna guest star in this episode. Interesting. Also, let's just be real. First of all, the hilarity of trying to win tickets on eBay, and you're like, the eBay snipers. DSL!

Yeah, I've got a high-speed internet connection. Sweet baby Nathan. Oh, my God. Wow. And the, like, purity of the less technical times matched to you at the end when she's like, how much do I owe you for the coffee? When Nathan's like, you're being so awkward. And you go, a song, a cup of song. Like, wow.

So bold. Can you imagine someone actually saying that to Sheryl Crow? I love that about Haley. I love that about her. She totally would do that. Friends, we all.

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I don't know what I would do. Somebody was like, if you sing for me right now, I'll give you whatever, blah, blah, blah. If I give you this curry, Joy, this curry that you enjoyed for dinner for free, will you sing us a song? Free curry. I'd have to be really in the mood. I'd have to be in the mood. But Sheryl Crow was in the mood. She was so sweet when she came in. A lot of people were there. Everybody kind of... We all showed up. We were hiding in corners.

Actually, guys, I said that when we watched the episode for everybody listening at home. We all were shocked because Karen's cafe was more packed than it's ever been for anything. And then we realized in the scene that it was supposed to be empty. But we all remember that night as like 100 people being there because we were. We were just hiding off camera. Yeah. Where were we? I feel like we were all tucked away in the corners of actually over where the table was where...

Moira and I and Chad all had that one scene earlier. I think everybody was kind of on that side. And we were like, people were sitting on the bar and behind the bar because the dollies, the big pieces of equipment, y'all, that the cameras rest on, they're kind of like big heavy wagons. The dollies were in front of the actual countertop. And so we were all, I mean, people might as well have been hanging from the rafters trying to watch her sing. She probably thought we were such dorks.

How much money did they have to pay Sheryl Crow to come on to season one of One Tree Hill? I'll tell you one thing that was in her deal that I know had to have been in her deal was that she scored the whole episode. Like they used her. I don't know if she scored it, but like they used only her music for the whole episode. It was only her songs. Yeah. That makes sense. So smart. Yeah, I would have done that. And her guitarist, Jeff, is somebody actually I ended up writing with a couple years later, a year or so later when I got my contract with Epic Records. I remember.

I remember that. Yeah, they hooked me up with that guy, Jeff, and he was such a sweetheart. We wrote some fun stuff together. And I was just super stoked to be working with anybody that had worked with Cheryl. Oh, my God. Besides Billy Joel, she was like my mecca. Did you use her music as audition songs? Because I did. Oh, and karaoke songs. Oh, girl! Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I remember there was like a girl group that was getting like formulated in the nineties in DC at the Kennedy center. That's where they were doing the auditions. And I had to go audition. Right. And my first audition song was like an ace of bass song. And they were like, you did it kid. You did it. Uh, you're coming back for a callback, you know? And it was, it was so gross and like predatory. And, but then my callback song was all I want to do is have some

And it's so cool that she came on our show because she imprinted on us, what, in like our middle school years, right? Naturally. You know, she's a really big deal. And I wish that we'd all gotten to hang out with her because she would have been one of those older chicks that would have imparted some wisdom. I can feel it. I think so, too.

I wish we could have asked her some questions. I wish so too. I mean, I wish we had been able to have more time with her and just chat, but she was really sweet and I think we were all really nervous. I was way too nervous to talk to her about music or anything, but I should have. She had an album, I think, it wasn't

it wasn't the globe sessions. Cause that was the super popular one that really broke out, but she had one that was kind of darker. I think maybe it was just called 1996 or it was just called Sheryl Crow. I'm not sure. That song is so heartbreaking. First cut is the deepest. Like, Oh yeah. That I've, I've cried to that song. I want to say there was a breakup during our one tree hill tenure that involved that song breaking my heart over and over again. And yeah, she was amazing.

You know what else I loved in this episode? I loved the... I mean, I know it's a rough time. You know, Peyton and Brooke, by the way, winding up drinking together. Cheersing that Lucas went home with another girl is so... Again, the writing is so insane. But Hillary, we did a great job in that scene. You know, here's the thing. If we got to hang out at Blue Post all night, we had a great time. We had a great time. It was fine. We were like definitely playing skee-ball when they were changing camera lenses, for sure. Yeah.

But I did love the kind of sweet, quiet moment with our other favorites. We were robbed with Peyton and Jake. And you making the mobile for Jenny was really, really cute. So sweet. But again, so this show, like, so...

through stuff, you know? Yeah. Joy made such a good point when we were watching the episode. She's like, God, you know, you talked about Succession. Yeah. One of my favorite shows on HBO. So what I love about Succession, and it's not everyone's cup of tea, no show is, but what I really love about Succession is that you get to know the characters and even though they all sort of have these, they're all kind of bad guys in a way. They're awful. Yeah, yeah. But you feel

In love with them because of their humanity, because it takes so long to see things unfold that in between all the bad choices, you see the good possibilities. I mean, it's the reason that people fall in love with unhealthy partners, right? Because you see all the good possibilities right before the horrible choice that they inevitably make. There's seven good days before that eighth bad day. Right. Oh, yeah. And

But what's great about it is it draws you in. It triggers that part of the human brain that loves a cliffhanger because we want to solve a mystery. We want to see what's going to happen. And TV has really leveled up. And why Succession is an example of that is because they really take a long time. It's a slow burn to reveal all of these story points and the plot points as they twist and turn. Right.

And the more I watch our show, the more I'm getting whiplash with all of the how fast everything is happening. And it's a shame because we've got good actors. We've got interesting characters. We've got a beautiful setting and a great setup for story. But because we're blowing through it so fast, we're missing out on the anticipation.

and the, you know, all the excitement that you get from just slowly wandering through a journey and then boom, getting surprised by a twist and turn. How good, how juicy would it have been if for

two or three whole episodes. We saw Keith stressing about money, going through other avenues of trying to get a loan, admitting it to Karen, her looking at her finances, figuring out what would happen if she took out a second mortgage on the cafe, him saying, I'm not going to let you do it. The slow burn, the slow burn, the slow burn. Dan finding out ahead of time and like plotting and waiting. And what if Dan let people think like he really was going to do the right thing? What

if we thought for two episodes Dan was gonna do the right thing and and then the oh he's your boss that guy showed up it would it would hurt so much worse it would be so much deeper and what about introducing uh uh Nikki yeah three episodes before with like these weird little moments and she's in and out and we're like oh we've got this new character and who is she and why is she here yeah and the reveal and

Yeah, it's just a lot. I mean, do you guys think it was because we were constantly on the bubble and always afraid that like they were always afraid that we were going to get canceled? So they were just trying to shove everything in. A hundred percent. Here's what's also insane is that now that we've spoken to so many other people who were on shows in the same era as our show, everyone was always told they were on the bubble and it was a it was a ploy. It wasn't a real thing. Isn't that sexy?

so bad, guys. It's like finding out about Santa. It's just like, what? We could have been having fun instead of stressed out. Instead of being so scared all the time. Well, so the Jake of it all is hard for me because I see how much fun I'm having with Greenberg. I see how much fun Peyton and Jake are having together. I see how much fun

But Peyton literally just dive bombed her one friendship, like her one true love, Brooke. You know, that relationship has imploded over Lucas and Peyton's already like watching movies with Jake. I just it as a former teenage girl, I was a teenage girl, believe it or not.

when you are in love with someone, you don't automatically get your head turned by someone else when it falls apart. There is a mourning process. And I think having so many male writers was a detriment because that process was never really explored. You know, Brooke just goes straight to like scorched earth and is like, I'm going to destroy everything. And you're the loser and you're a loser and you're a loser. But you know,

Peyton went from being with Nathan to being sort of with Luke right away. And then now all of a sudden it's like this Jake thing is happening. And it's like, is her only value in being with a person, like being with a dude? That's hard. That's, I mean, I'm sure that's something that we deal with in real life, but I would have appreciated if Jake had gotten the respect he deserved and

And there would have been a little bit of breath between the, you know, chapters of dudes. Yeah, that's a great point. I do think it's interesting when people say, you know, why is representation so important? It's stuff like this. You know, if there had been more women in positions of power, I think maybe that would have been different. I think maybe someone would have said, you got to give her a minute. Like, she's going to go home and cry under her pillow. Right? That's right.

scene we're missing like where's Peyton at home weeping over this yeah by the way where was Brooke's opportunity to like weep over this yeah Brooke never cries right like at home by herself and it's weird and it's like and if she's not gonna cry if she's the kind of person that's gonna refuse I won't allow this to get me so sad or whatever I want to know about that and I want to know why why is she like that you know yeah also did you guys have nosy teachers at school

No. No, I had a camp counselor once who I thought was...

Sweet. Like she was invested a little bit more than others, but I didn't have nosy teachers. My teachers knew every boy that I kissed, every boy that I talked to. What? Like my teachers always knew what I was involved in. It's kind of great. Oh, it was so great. And when it would go sideways, like they were completely invested in it. Like, and it was incredibly sweet, you know? And so they would pull you aside lovingly.

And like, try to give you some good advice and, you know, steer you in the right direction. There's nobody at Tree Hill High that is saying either to the girls, like, babe, this ain't worth it. This ain't it. Or conversely, like saying to Lucas, dude, you were trying to date two girls at once. Like, that's gross. Don't do that. You know, Whitey's just concerned about his position on the team and their winning record, you know? Yeah.

You know what? I wonder if that's why it lands on us and made us all so upset watching this. Because there is no one...

Not only holding any of these kids to account, but even just giving them advice. I mean, you said it. Even Karen's like, oh, kid, cute. Oh, my God. That's the worst. Her son. Yeah. Okay. So at the end of this night, Lucas has pissed off both girls. He's gone missing. He left his phone at home, so he's unreachable. He has gone to a bar. He's reeking of alcohol. He's drinking on his pain meds. He goes and he...

He's sex with a stranger on a carousel in a mall, breaking and entering. And then when he comes home- He has way too much bronzer on. For God's sake. When he comes home- What is wrong with this boy? His mother doesn't say, where the hell were you? Why do you smell like beer? Why do you smell like this cheap perfume? You know? She's like- No, he gets away with it. She's like, Luke, I'm so glad we've had this talk. This was productive. Yeah.

Like, wherever my son is right now ain't happening, bro. Not happening. No way. No. God. How do we fix it, you guys? I mean, how do we, like, how do we look with rose-colored glasses on this episode? Well, I don't know if we look on this episode with rose-colored glasses.

But I will say it helps me to know where we're going. Yeah. It helps me to know who these characters turn into. It helps me to know that even though there was a clearly, like, misogynistic, abusive, gross lens on this episode, our show does supersede that. It does...

learn over the years to advocate better for women and for us. Like, not always. Not, you know, we are very honest about the flaws here, but I have to say that that's kind of the only way I can deal with it. And I will say, I will say, the one sort of stellar moment for me in the mess of how so many people get treated in this episode, I actually did think there was great writing in

In the scene where Lucas comes to Brooke. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. You crushed it. That's a good scene. You know, we... I'm just going to put it out there. We had been pushing back for the first 15 episodes of this season. We were like, don't take our clothes off and don't make us do weird stuff. And this episode felt a little bit like, okay, you girls want to be the prudes? Cool. We'll let you be the prudes and we'll bring in someone else.

And the performances that came out of that between Barbara and between you ripping Lucas a new asshole and between Joy being this like great plucky best friend that is like, why are you being so weird? You know, that scene in the cafe between you and Lucas and Karen is fantastic. You know, you kept the levity of the show going. And so I like watching the female performances in spite of what was on the page.

It makes me feel good about what we did as a unit. Me too. And it's interesting to find, like you said, Joy, the rose colored glasses for me are the wins inside of the mess, right?

And kind of the eye of the storm of this for me is a girl finally beginning to know her worth. And when Brooke looks at Lucas and says, I used to feel inferior to you. Yeah. Oh, great. And she realizes that she let all these ideas, she felt small around this boy. She felt like she wasn't smart enough or good enough or whatever.

well read enough or didn't know enough about music. And she just looks at him and is like, but I'm a good person and you're not. Right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, God, that's a win for girls who've been through whatever version of this. And if we're doing roses and thorns and the whole episode is a thorn, that would be my rose. Do you know what my rose is? Um,

Nikki in the bar with her pickup lines was so dreamy for me. When she says, nice eye contact, that was a pickup line that I'd never heard before, friends. Me neither. No. Yeah. I've also never seen that magic trick before. Wait, but here's the thing. I have. Really? Somebody in the writer's room was like, I know a magic trick. We got to work it into the episode. This is hot. 100%.

100%. Somebody's kid did it in science class. They brought it into the writer's room and showed everybody and they were like, we gotta put this in this show. And also she's just playing with matches the whole time. She's a pyromaniac.

Sophia, while we watched that, was like, she's bad. She plays with fire. She's bad. Well, because you were like, why does she keep lighting things on fire? And I was like, it's how we know she's bad. Like, who did this? So great. But by the way, hats off to Emmanuel. Who we love. We love her. And she came in and she just...

She committed to everything, but you can see on her face that she always felt like she had the upper hand. Yeah. Yeah, she always felt in control. She was. And, you know, it's funny because we had been pushing back and we had been saying we feel really uncomfortable. And the big threat was, well, we'll bring in somebody else. And Emmanuel was like...

these girls are little girls. I'm a grown-up. And she was playing someone over 18. You know, that's the difference. Yeah. And she was like, I like myself. I look badass. I feel great about this. And we were like, oh my God, she's amazing. More power to her. We love her. I think they thought we were going to hate her. And instead...

We loved her. I think so, too. I think we were all, like, drawn to her. Oh, yeah. I had lunch with her one time, and she was so... Like, just in the middle of the shoot, we just went out and grabbed some lunch, and she was, like... She's just so interesting, so well-traveled, so well-read. Yeah. She's very magnetic. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really liked her. I liked her a lot, too. Why didn't we keep her? Well, you know...

Who knows? So, haha, jokes on them. My roses also broke at the door. I loved, I loved, I just loved that moment. I really did. And it still spoke to the girl inside of me that gets nervous around men I'm attracted to. And I'm like, my tongue swells up six sizes because I don't know how to talk. And I'm like, I don't know what to do with myself. Wait, is that your tell? Is that how we know you like somebody now when we're all together? Okay.

All right. We're on to you now, Joy. No, it doesn't actually. But I do get I do kind of clam up and I get I just start to feel I don't know. It's like it's a little girl thing of feeling inferior and feeling like I'm not good enough for whatever reason. I'm working on it. But but I loved that moment at the door that that really was so cool for me.

to watch. And it still spoke to me even all these years later. Loved it. You did a really good job with that, Soph. That was... Yeah, thanks. And we were all so cold and stressed out this episode. I can see the stress on all of us in this episode. And, guys...

Like knowing what a wet North Carolina winter feels like and all of our hands are in our pockets and our bodies are just like super tense and we can't move our mouths. It's just, oh, cursed episode. Is that we'll call this the cursed episode. That'll be the title of the podcast. Exactly. This one is cursed. Cursed.

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Do we have any listener questions? Oh, that's a great idea. Okay, this one's from Alexa. Alexa asks, I've always wondered what it was like for each of you when the show grew in popularity. What was the most overwhelming part of your stardom? Was there anything you had to change about your daily routines? Oh, interesting. I mean, I don't know. We were living in Wilmington, so it's a little different.

Sophia, you were in L.A. more than any of us. Was L.A. a different, like? No, L.A. was actually always easier just because there's more industry and people seem to care less. I can certainly go first because I think I'm probably the person with the worst social anxiety. Baby, we'll take care of you. I'm like, outside is hard. That was always really hard for me because there was this

What I realized was that there was an expectation for me to be like loud and into it and wanting to party like Brooke. And I love to go out and adventure with groups of people I know, but the...

The inward bound from strangers was really hard for me. And I actually, that apartment that I loved so much, I had to move. Oh, that's right. Because people figured out that I lived there and then I could never get into my home without someone literally standing in between me and my front door. And when you're a single girl being alone for the first time. It's so scary. It made me feel really, really unsafe. And I'm

I still feel like deeply unsafe when just normal boundaries aren't respected, but that was pretty scary. So yeah, I mean, my daily routine was I had to move out of my apartment and move somewhere else. So that was kind of a bummer. Hillary, did you have any? Well, I think Peyton helped me establish boundaries because I'd been the VJ at MTV that would like

go out into Times Square and be in the crowd. And I was always with people and it was not a big deal when people would be touching me. And I will say that like post 9-11, um,

I probably had some PTSD about it. Big crowds became really scary to me because it was a threat. It was like a danger. And I didn't ever think that I would be the thing that a crowd would collect around. That like us filming together would be the thing. Because before I was always the person just covering the crowd, if that makes sense. I was peripheral.

And so when we kind of got thrust into the center of things, that was terrifying because there wasn't ever an exit strategy. And I'm always the person that's looking for an exit strategy. And so that was kind of weird. But because Peyton was so confrontational and so flip, you know, it afforded me the luxury of being able to do that in real life. And so if someone was crossing boundaries, I could say, hey, Peyton,

Fuck you. And like they laugh because it was what they wanted, you know. And so it it gave me a lot of freedom to be ornery in a way that was protective.

That's awesome. I still utilize that. I wish I had that luxury. Yeah, you were the nice girl. I know everybody expected Haley to be so nice, but I also grew up with a lot of issues with boundaries, but my way of dealing with it was not to... I would go on the offense and like... I was rude. I was just like, don't invade my space. Leave me alone. Don't, you know, I don't...

And I think also I was a New Yorker before I got this show. I mean, I had lived in LA for a year, but I grew up in Jersey and in the city and I felt like a New Yorker. And in New York, people aren't,

weird about it. It's just like, hey girl, I watch you on my stories, you know, like love seeing you. Hey, what's up? And you're like, what's up? You know, and you just say, hey, what's up? And you keep on walking. But having people, yeah, find out where you live, follow the van home, which happened a lot in Wilmington. You know, people in restaurants coming up and talking to you in the middle of your meal and you're trying to have a private conversation. And I didn't know how to handle it. I didn't know what to do. And my

My answer to feeling suddenly forced into a situation I didn't want to be in was to shut it down immediately. I didn't have the tools to learn how to be gracious about it or, you know, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You know, I'm just having a private moment right now, but I'd love to come talk with you afterward, you know, or whatever. I didn't have those tools. I didn't know. There was no one to teach us that. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think that was hard. That was a long lesson to learn because you just don't know what to do. What do you do? And I don't know. It's awkward. Yeah. It takes a long time to learn what those boundaries are. And by the way, we're all pleasers. All three of us are pleasers. And so it is hard. It's really hard. And it's hard also to learn how to set a boundary and then not

lose sleep for the next three nights feeling guilty about it. Oh, yes. You know? It's so hard. I think I finally had to realize if, you know,

A friend of mine said this to me was like, if you worked at a tech company and eight people were over your shoulder, tapping you on the shoulder going, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? You'd be like, stop it. Yeah. But like, for some reason, when you're an entertainer, you're not supposed to do that. And so I had to learn what, what my boundaries were. Like, I'm not going to get up from my meal with my family, but if you're here, when we're done, I'll see you at the door. Like things that could create that, um,

But it's also, you've got, I mean, it might be like, you could be nice to the first three people and then the fourth person and then the fifth person. And by the time you get to the seventh person in the day and you're just like tired of being interrupted and maybe you're having a hard day and maybe there's some crazy shit happening in your life. It's just, it's hard. Oh my God, that's joy. That's the worst. When you've got shit happening in your life, which by the way, we were in our early twenties. There was shit happening in our life every other day. And so having...

Having to do that and also be like pleasing and like, hey, everybody. Yeah, of course I want to take a picture. I loved taking pictures of people. But then I also, I mean, I don't think it's a secret. I started smoking, too, because I realized that if I was smoking, no one would talk to me. And I was like, oh, really? Oh, my God, Joy. What? Wow. What is this magic trick? When I would hang out, because Peyton can do bad things, because Peyton Sawyer is bad.

her and Nikki should have fallen in love instead of falling in hate. That's the thing. It's like, and I wasn't even smoking half the time. I was just like holding it because when you're doing that, you're unapproachable. Right. But if you're just standing outside looking at your phone or like doing whatever, you're totally approachable. And so, yeah, if you want to carry around a pack of Virginia slims and look, and look real unapproachable, that's the trick. Wow.

Oh, I had no idea. That's a good trick. Yeah, sometimes people will post pictures of those days on the internet and I'm so embarrassed, but I'm also like, you know what?

I was 22. What do you want from me? That was a mess. Yeah. I'm trying to figure it out. Whatever. I'm a grown up now. What a great question. It's, it's fun to think about that stuff. It's also a little cringy because I know I was, I'm sure that I was rude to some people that I wish I hadn't been. Probably not, Joy. Too hard to, I was just like, you know, shut it down and nope, I can't. Nope. Sorry. No, thank you. Don't, you know, I'm busy or whatever. Cause I just didn't, you know, whatever. We didn't know. Well, I think it's also, it is really worth repeating that

You can't be all things to all people at all times. And especially in a town like ours, there's two sides to every coin, right? And like, what an amazing thing that during spring break weeks, we'd have 500 people outside of the cell. Oh my God, I forgot about spring break. You know, well, but to realize how much your show means, but also you can't get through town with 500 people following you around. There's a point where you have to go, you gotta back up, you gotta stop. I'm just...

I can't also working like we're working long hours and, and going out and chit chatting with fans. It actually sucks a lot of energy out of us, but then we also have to still go back and do our job, which is why I hardly ever went out and took photos with fans because it's not because I was a

to it, it was that I knew how much energy it would suck out of me. And I knew that I still had a whole day of workload ahead of me that I wouldn't be able to do my job properly if I had like released all that energy out to other people. Well, especially because you're an introvert, you know? Yeah, that's what I mean. It sucks a lot of energy out of me. I made it kind of my thing where I was like at work, I will come when I can. And outside of here, please respect my personal life.

So it was the thing that actually made me feel free being able to go do that. We have one other question from Kristen that is, when you had musical artists on the show, did you ever get to talk or hang out with them? You know, I feel like we've talked about Gavin. Like, Gavin came to play pool with us at the bars. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I had a mega crush on Grace Potter. Oh, yeah. She was awesome. Girl. And she came out with like me and Beth Crocombe, I think, one night. And I was just like, oh, my God, she's so cool. She's so cool. Yeah. I loved her. The folks stayed on the show a bit. I mean, we were all too scared to say anything to Sheryl Crow. But

But as the years went on, you know, Kate Vogel became a character. Oh, my God, yeah. Tyler Hilton was a character. So it was so fun because we got to have... Pete Wentz. Oh, my God, sweet Pete. Like, we got to have all these wonderful relationships and friendships with people who initially came on the show for their music. Yeah.

And don't forget Bethany Joy Lenz. Bethany Joy Lenz! I liked our fake music friend, Kevin Federline. Like, Kevin lip synced. He did not really sing on the show. And we'll tell that story when we get there because it's one of my favorite stories from the show. But we went out to, what was that bar that was on the corner of Front Street and then like where Riverview Suites are?

All I remember is being in this bar very late at night and Kevin Federline buying everyone shots and being so lovely and so fun and so like... He was awesome. He was...

I was so mad they cast him and then he ended up being so lovely. And so, oh, Nick Lachey was really great too, by the way. Remember Nick came on? We had a good run. We had a good run with the Sagers. We did. Oh, what fun we had. Okay, so here's my question to piggyback that. If we could have any musical performer on that would also have to have dinner with us and hang out with us after the fact, who would we have? Oh, man.

This is really tough, Hillary. I know. Listen, I only ask the hard-hitting questions. That's hard. Pete Yorn, I feel like, would be cool to chill with. Are you going to kiss Pete Yorn? I don't know. I haven't listened to his music in many, many years, but I don't know why his name just popped up. I looked up Pete Yorn not long ago, Joy, and he has the same exact hair that he had in 2000, like the long hair. And I was like, God bless.

Oh, that's awesome. I hear Sean Mullins is pretty cool too. Remember that guy? Guys, I just want to have dinner with Stevie Wonder. So I pick Stevie Wonder.

That's a good one. That'd be amazing. I mean, look, I had an answer, but you said Stevie and my brain went straight to Stevie Nicks and I was like, oh, yes, the Queen Witch herself. I mean, there's so many legends. There's so many legends. Well, I was going to say Boy George because when I was in high school, I was obsessed with Boy George. And I think if we're going to be drama queens and add a layer of bitch to this show, he's

He's the queen. I love that. Yeah. All right. Those are good questions. Y'all want to spin a wheel? Yeah, let's do that. Shall we spin a most likely wheel? I mean, honestly, where did Pete Yorn come from? Why is that in my brain? I don't know, but I'm about to listen to him as soon as we're done. Now I'm going to go. I know. Now I'm going to go listen to Pete Yorn. Okay, folks, give it to him, Soph. Who's most likely to end up in prison? I think in this episode, Lucas, brother is drinking underage.

Breaking and entering. Indecent exposure in a public place. Oh, yeah. Totally. You're right. Breaking the law. Yeah. Wait, who's most likely to get arrested in like...

Nikki for sure would have been arrested as an accessory. So they're both going to jail. Yeah. Yeah. And statutory rape. But that's a different story, guys. We're not going to get into that. Oh, man. I like him young. Can we live that line? That was awful. That's how you know it's a bunch of dudes being like, you know what? I wish the hot girl in college had said to me when I was in high school. Gross. Gross. So gross. I mean, in real life.

I don't know. Most likely to get arrested? Lee Norris. No, we say Lee Norris for everything, but by the way, Lee is the one who at like two o'clock in the morning is like heckling from across the street like,

Do we have any like hippies who would be like at the, you know, real, I sound like such an old person calling somebody a hippie. You know, people who would like stand in picket lines and who would be like, you know, in the front, somebody who'd get arrested for. Sophia. Sophia's our Jane Fonda. I guess Sophia would be. Yeah. Yeah.

You're for real going to get arrested on a protest line at some point. Have you before? I've been threatened. No, I've been threatened with arrest on a protest line multiple times. But there's just like a couple of key phrases you need to learn about your rights. And then they're like, ah, that one's read the law. And they move on. What are they? Educate us. Oh, well, I'll write you up a whole document. There's multiple to learn, but they're not hard to memorize. Exciting. Maybe we'll post it in the stories as a resource. Yeah.

Can you imagine? The protest resource. I like that. Oh my God. Yeah. All right. It's you and Lucas. You guys are trouble. One is political. I'm down. One is perverted. I'm down. Damn the man. Damn the man. Next episode, number 17. We have Spirit in the Night. It's going to be better, you guys. I believe in the next episode. I believe in us. It cannot be worse than this. Well,

Here's the thing. We all end up in such awesome places. We got to turn it around at some point, right? Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully we'll be less cold. So let's see how the next episode shapes up. You guys have been awesome. Thanks for hanging out with us, guys. Thanks, darlings. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at DramaQueensOTH. Or email us at DramaQueens at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We love you.

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