That Did Not Age Well • EP218
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Hello friends and One Tree Hill family. Wow. We are on season two, episode 18, The Lonesome Road.

I don't know what to say, but wow. I know what I'm going to say. You know what I'm going to say. I know what you're going to say. This show originally aired April 26, 2005. Let me give you the synopsis, and then we'll really get into it.

On his way home from seeing Haley, which if you remember from last week really didn't go well, Nathan stops to visit Taylor, hoping for some fun and maybe more gross. Meanwhile, Anna gets a surprise visit from her old girlfriend. Oh my God, what good scenes these were. And is inspired to finally come out to her parents' house.

Lucas works with Andy to try to bring Dan down. Karen puts her foot down with Brooke, who gets grounded. And Peyton and Jake continue to hide baby Jenny from Nikki. Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. Well, much like our episode this week, where there was no Haley to be found, Joy is being a cool mom and is, like, on a school field trip going cross-country right now. So we're just going to have to talk about her. Yeah, absolutely.

She's taken Maria on a pretty rad adventure, and we just couldn't make today work. So we'll miss her like we did then when she went on tour and we stayed home without her. God, it just, the show loses something without her. It really does. And we felt it in this episode. Can I just say it? Can I just, I hate this episode. I know. I hate this episode. It is my least favorite.

Favorite episode. The misogyny is strong. Yeah, there's just a lot that isn't good enough.

Like you said, the Anna scenes in this episode should have been served up on a golden platter because they are beautiful. And Daniela Alonso is like finally getting this like grand opus of her character coming full circle. Yeah. And it just gets lost in the bullshit. It's interesting. So I was thinking about this as I was watching it because for our friends at home, we normally watch movies.

these episodes together. We get on Zoom, if we're not, you know, obviously in the same city, and we watch them together. That's where all the reaction videos come from. And sometimes we're very shocked by things. We didn't need reactions for this one. We really didn't. They needed to be buried. But, you know, then we jump into the podcast and we talk about it because we've just done it together. We've all been scribbling notes and laughing about things. And

And because this week's crazy for us, Joy's on the road, we've all got a bunch of stuff going on, we had to watch the episode separately. So, Hillary, you were like, this is ridiculous. You were like, I was so mad yesterday. You were like, this 20-minute Coyote Ugly sequence, this is all bullshit.

And here's what's wild. So I was like prepped. I didn't remember what this episode was. You told me. So I was prepped for it. And when the sequence started, I was like, oh man, is this my like internalized misogyny from the early 2000s that I think this is kind of cute. And then I was like, eh, oh, yep. I see what, I see what my sister's talking about. Cause the cute has ended. Now it's gross. Now,

these poor girls whose you know names nobody even knew who got hired to be Taylor's co-workers are like smacking their asses in gratuitous close-ups oh and it's still going for minutes and minutes and minutes and minutes and minutes and I was like yeah and let it be known those girls lovely

They're good dancers, beautiful girls. Oh, yeah. They deserved lines. We're not criticizing them. No, not even a little. It's what the people in charge decided to do with minutes of screen time with a bunch of young women. They took it from like a cute...

a potentially cute moment. Yeah. And made it just about, like, gyrating bodies and booty close-ups. Butts. With no, to your point, no dialogue for these girls, no fun bar banter, no, oh, that's the brother-in-law. Like, nothing that advanced the story. And I just really didn't like it. See, I wouldn't steer you wrong, baby. I know you never would. I know.

But I was like, oh my God, I'm going to have to tell her I don't hate it. And I was like, oh, I went from not hating it to really hating it. I see. Look, I loved Coyote Ugly when it came out. Me too. And I bought leather pants at the Wilson's Leather in the mall with such a quickness because I was working at the Buffalo Wing factory back home in Virginia and was like, I'm going to bartend in leather pants too. You know, in the middle of summer because that's hot. But this...

There's a male gaze and there's a male lens that we've talked about quite a lot. And so there's good stuff in this episode that gets grody because you're looking at it through that male lens. Like Brooke not knowing how to mop in this episode and being down on her hands and knees. Yeah.

Made me so mad, Sophia. I know it did. I know it did. I gotta say, I think, again, I was prepped. It's like when you go to a movie thinking it's gonna be great and it isn't, you're let down. But when somebody tells you it's not great, you're like, actually, I thought it was kind of good. I thought the scene...

And I forgot about it. I forgot shooting that. So the memory that came with it made me laugh so hard. I thought Brooke Davis having no idea how to mop a floor and using a sponge, like looking up me as her, looking up at Lucas going, is that wrong? I burst out laughing. I was like, this to me is funny. But I also was like, well, it's going to make Hillary so mad. I'm just like, why do we have this girl that just accomplished so much? I know.

Back on her hands and knees. I know. Like, how do we get that girl back on her knees? I will say what I didn't like about it was the way that it was shot. Yes, that's what I'm saying! It had me positioned in a way with a man standing behind me that I thought was not classy. I thought the shots and the humor then, again, in the camera angle, and this is sort of a production note,

That I didn't like. I was like, guys, you could have put the camera in a space where my head was like level with his chest, not with his groin. Like, that's gross. And to your point, that's male gish. That just, as an actor especially, you don't know that's happening to you because you're not behind the monitor. You can't see the angle. And that was what I didn't like. I liked...

The innocence of, you know, the Brooke Davis who's never done chores. But I didn't like that. The comedy of that is adorable. And there was a way to do it in an adorable way. And you on your knees with a man looming, a boy looming over you. I didn't like that. There's a punchline in there that doesn't have to be said out loud, but the viewer sees it, you know? And it's...

Yes. And to your point, I think that this is an important conversation. Like we all are better when we are willing to examine nuance and when we're willing to be honest and frank about what's good and what's not.

And that's kind of what this episode is. Like, the Anna stuff was really good. The way that they were gross to those girls who they didn't even give any dialogue in the coyote ugly ripoff was not good. The humor in the Brooke and Lucas scene, when he says, Brooke, this is a mop. Like, there was some gold. You know, is that wrong? I'm never going to stop thinking about it. There was some comedic gold there. That was good. Because you mined for it. Because you did it. Thank you. I will take it.

Like that was good, but then the way it was shot was bad. And it, I think for us, all of us really, it's always good to go back and look at

How we can examine those dualities in things we've done, work we've done, experiences we've had, you know, whatever the thing might be that you're looking at so that you can more quickly spot the good and the bad in the present and try to filter out the bad. So, you know, there were things about the episode I liked and man, there were things I really did not.

Well, maybe we'll set the table with this because, guys, just so you know, Sophia and I conferred before we taped this podcast because I was like, I don't want to be Debbie Downer, man. I don't want to be like, this one sucks, but also this one sucks. But then we also were like, okay, well, what else was going on in 2005 that was questionable? Because there's a ton of questionable shit in this episode. You know, like Peyton tells like a white trash joke that, ugh.

Yeah, it doesn't feel great. It's cringy. It's cringy. But back then, you know, people were still saying all sorts of inappropriate stuff. And so we pulled up a list. Hold on. We've got a list of 2005 movies and songs. So we wanted to know what was popular then that might be a little cringy now. We've evolved. We've got the top movies of 2005 were Into the Blute.

Hitch, The Dukes of Hazzard, Wedding Crashers, and American Pie Band Camp. I mean, there's a lot of dick jokes in those movies. So many dick jokes in all of these things. But they're hits! They had a theme. And then the songs of 2005. Don't Ya? by the Pussycat Dolls. Oh my god. Gold Digger by Kanye West. My Humps.

The Opus by the Black Eyed Peas. It's art. Just a Little Bit by 50 Cent. Candy Shop by 50 Cent. He had a big year. And Drop It Like It's Hot by Snoop Dogg, which I will say stands the test of time. That is a classic. That one can still get it. That one can still. And therein is the duality. It's like...

It's like it could be a whole era of dick jokes and songs about boobs and butts. Yeah. The drop it like it's hot is... Iconic. Cool. I'd like to keep the drop it like it's hot and veto the misogyny and the Confederate flag permanently. That's what I'd like. I think those should go away. Yeah.

But we should keep Snoop. I mean, God, the Super Bowl halftime show. Yeah. Come on. We all outed ourselves this year at the Super Bowl. Oh, my God. It just...

Made me so happy. My son thought I was so cool because I'd met so many of them from MTV. And Gus is like, you've met these people? And I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Mom's cool, dude. You don't even fucking know. 2005 was weird. I mean... It was weird. Also...

Where? I know we've talked about this, but really the meme mopping scene. I was like, where are the rest of my pants? Girl. There was such an enormous space between where my shirt ended and where my pants began. I think that's why people started getting tramp stamp tattoos just to like bridge the gap. To bridge that giant gap of just pale flesh. Oh, man. It's not too late. We could still get those. I don't think I want one.

I've thought about where I might want my next tattoo. I just don't think that's ever going to be a place for me. You know what I would like to do, though? I think perhaps...

we should make some temporary tattoos and maybe have one for like a week that'd be fun that's a good idea yeah i'm gonna do that for a week also are we allowed to say that is that a term that lives in 2005. again tramp stamp you know we've talked about yucky we always called those tank tops wife beaters which is like no there's a whole learning curve that is good it's a good thing

And so we are going to accept that we love our show. We love the characters on our show. We don't like certain elements. We don't like certain words that are used. The white trash thing really made me feel awful in this episode. Yeah, I really didn't like that. No, it's disgusting. Friends, we all...

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The more you love, the more you'll find. From the new to the pre-loved and waiting to be loved. The timeless classics to the one of ones and everything in between. Yeah, eBay. It's the place for new, pre-loved, vintage, and rare fashion. eBay. Things people love. How in the same show, then, do you have this storyline with Anna? Let's talk about the glowing moment of the show. I have two. Okay. Anna and Darby...

Yes. And Jake and Whitey. Oh, yeah, that was a good scene. That was good. Really winning moments. But yes, let's start with Anna. I am...

I just love watching Daniela work. And it's funny, this episode gave me the same feeling I had when she came on Animal Kingdom. Did you watch that show? That AMC show? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I love that show. And when she came on, I was like, oh my God, Daniela. And it was such a joy to see her embodying that character, you know, this young mom. And

It's really interesting having seen her, you know, in a more recent project to go back and watch her and just be like, God, you can see the, you can just see it in her all the way back to 2005. She's so present and vulnerable. And what I like so much is that she's not afraid to hide the struggle and

That Anna is going through. She doesn't, you know, memorize her lines in a way where they just tumble out. She finds the words. And, you know, when for again, for the folks at home, when you've shot a scene 18 times to make it look spontaneous, you know, requires some technical skill. And I just love watching her.

Yeah. Well, and Darby coming on, this character of Darby played by Sprague Graydon. I've seen Sprague Graydon in so many different things. In everything. I hope I'm saying her name right, because I get self-conscious about that. But...

We've done like four different shows together. She was on One Tree Hill, White Collar, Lethal Weapon, and Grey's Anatomy. And so whatever casting director casts these shows, they're like, yes, these are the kinds of girls that we like. Yeah. Well, also they're like, when you need somebody to come in for an episode and really hit a home run, it's pretty great. Get her. So talented. She was beautiful. It's a part that could have gone...

It could have gone sideways. You know, sometimes you don't know when you're only doing one episode of a show. She plays this, like, beautifully nuanced character in just one episode. Like, she...

She should have had four episodes to kind of play this out and check in and dance around Anna and figure out their feelings. She gets it done in one. She's got the great scene with Lucas where Anna doesn't really know how to introduce her and then goes for it.

Yeah. Frankly, I'm jealous that Lucas got all those scenes. Like, I'm like, where's Peyton? She's been the one, like, defending her. I know. You're like, excuse me, this is my friendship. But it was important to see a boy accepting of this friendship in 2005 when this was still an uncomfortable conversation to have. And to have a boy celebrate it, you know, and be like, I'm going to miss you as a friend. Yeah.

The work that Chad got to do in that storyline, I'm jealous of. I know. It was really, really nice for him. And I do think it's important that...

We are more accustomed to women modeling vulnerability and acceptance with each other. And so to have a boy do it, to teach viewers that, you know, these two girls who'd been in love were not a punchline does feel important, especially in 2005. You know, it hit me so hard that.

Because we were talking in advance of this about what's changed. And in one of the later scenes between Darby and Anna, when Darby's explaining to Anna how she came out to her own parents and what went well and what was hard, and she talked about, you know, it was hard to see some of their dreams vanish. Like getting married. Oh, my God. Sophia, that was horrible. It broke me because... And I went, wow, wow.

There are kids who are watching One Tree Hill now who didn't experience 2005 when if you were in a queer couple, you couldn't get married. It was illegal in our lifetime. Yes. It was illegal for two people who are in love with each other to marry each other.

Which is so insane. It's insane. And the idea that you couldn't have children, that that was a dream that went away. God, I'm so glad you said that because I wrote it down here in my notes. And yes, like you, I was floored because the change in our lifetime is

is vast and I hope it continues to get better and better and better. And it's always going to be a fight. It just is. And so we're down for the fight and I'm proud that we were on a show that was a part of the fight, you know, in the early days. But yeah, that reality is, it still feels icky. Yeah. Well, and look, you know, we're, we're here to analyze our show and,

But it does feel in this particular moment, while we're analyzing a show that's pretty evergreen, we are talking about change and progress. And there are laws happening all around the U.S. right now where there are political parties trying to roll back equal and civil rights for people.

There are elected officials campaigning against gay marriage, which is such an annoying thing to say. Marriage is marriage is marriage. Stop it. And but, you know, because we're talking about groups of people who are denied their rights because of who they are, which, you know, is unconstitutional. But here we are, to your point, Hillary, we're going to have to keep fighting this fight. There are also elected officials in our country right now who are saying that

They want to roll back the law that made interracial marriage legal. I know. Oh, my God. I saw that. Like, y'all, this is crazy. And so this does feel like if there was ever a moment to remind the folks at home, please get involved in your communities. Please make sure you are registered to vote. Even if, you know, whatever the next election cycle might be, there's two candidates in every race, right? Like...

Maybe you don't have a perfect candidate, but please show up and vote for the candidates who are on the side of progress and equality. Because if we don't.

We are going to risk going back to a time where people who are in love have to look at each other and say, we will never be able to get married. We will never be able to have kids. And the fight of our lifetime has been to undo that injustice. And you can see how recent it was. We were talking about it on our show in 2005. We cannot go back.

There are Annas and Darbys in every community. Yes. Whether they're out to you or they're out to the whole community or they've kept it to themselves. And so if you love our show and you love these characters and you can empathize with what they're going through, then yeah, get up, fight for them. That is important. Show up for people and show up for people with love because there's a lot of people out there who are showing up with a lot of hate.

Yeah, they're so loud. And they're so noisy. And I think I think we can I think we can remind not only ourselves because we do it for each other. Yeah. I mean, you know, we talk about this, the articles we text each other, the shit we get fired up about. I was sending you guys articles this morning about Wilmington. Just like, what are we doing? But, you know, I think not only can we do we do that in our friendship with each other, but I think that the

the sort of friendship of spirit that our show has created for us and for our viewers and our fans and all of our Wintry Hill friends, I think we can use that as an example to show up in love as well. So Gus and I talk about this a lot, and maybe we'll get away from our how much I dislike this episode, with the exception of the Anna storyline, by venturing into this, but my son wants to be a director. And, you know, he's like, I'm going to make horror movies. Mm-hmm.

And I have these conversations with him at a young age, like, why? Why do you want to make a horror movie? And he's like, well, I think they're fun. It's like, okay, but like, what's your message? What's the real thing that's scary? Like, what are you making this about? And so that is something that even on our teen drama, like teen dramas are dorky, guys. We know. We never won an Emmy for One Tree Hill. Yeah.

If we advanced the ball for people like Anna, if we opened the door for people to have conversations that used to be uncomfortable, that are maybe less uncomfortable, that's more important. And so the why, and I do think our show sometimes did a very good job of...

Being dorky and thereby making these conversations not intimidating. It's like, oh, well, if these little ding-dongs can do it, you know, we can have this hard talk. I can go to my parents, you know? It's actually really interesting you say that. We were, gosh, it was in an early episode of Good Sam. Yeah.

I only remember because Edwin and I had to go to this like fancy restaurant and our characters were going on a date. And then we see our dads there and we're like, our dads are in cahoots. And we had this lovely woman who's not our normal set photographer. She was filling in because our normal gal was away with her family. And she was an older lady. She was like in her 60s. And she said to me on the way out after we wrapped, you know, it was like one in the morning. We're all going to the vans to go home. And she says,

Hey, you know, I just really want to thank you. Your show, One Tree Hill, was really impactful for me because my granddaughter loved it.

So then my daughter started watching it with her and then I started watching it with them. And it got three generations of us talking to each other. And my granddaughter started talking to us about the things going on in her life that she would never open up about before. And I just thought, man, those are the kind of shows I want to be a part of that just help families talk to each other.

Yeah, there's, you know, that's literally all our show was. It's just people talking to each other. I loved it. Okay, so here's what I want to get. I want to get your take on Karen just being, like, so angry. Okay, all the women in this episode are just turned up to 11. It's like how a man thinks a woman talks. And so Karen's, like, super fucking mad. Yeah, super mad. Also...

Like what they did with Taylor being like, yeah, I was just testing you. I wasn't really going to have sex with you. Ew. That was the thing. It was like so many of the choices that women were making in this were really bothering me. It was like all of a sudden Brooke went from being like, oh, I'm doing the designated driving thing. And I'm also, you know, school president to like party, party, party, party, party, drunk. And it was like, well, this felt like a little bit of a back.

which I would understand if there was like a reason for it. Yeah. You know, you know, what's interesting. I hear you on that. And I think, look at the end of the day, like kids are kids. And if you're the designated driver one weekend, maybe one of your friends is the designated driver the next weekend. I mean, it's like now that we're so distant from high school, we want to be like, no, you don't need that. But then I think about it and I'm like, yeah, a lot of kids partied in high school. Okay. Um, so, uh,

I think what was missing for me was more of the space filler. Like, what I would have appreciated is if you'd seen Brooke go to the party with Bevan and make the decision. And Bevan would be like, you haven't been out with us in, you know, two months. I'll drive you home. I won't drink. And then you'd see Brooke make the decision to, like, party and...

And, you know, you'd notice the time and she'd be like, okay, I'll just stay for 30 more minutes. And you'd see Karen like waiting for her at the cafe. But we couldn't do any of that because there was a 17 minute long sequence of dancing on a bar. We lost all the scenes we needed. I wanted to see.

Party, damn it. Damn it. Damn it. Yeah, yeah. How you fill those 41, 42 minutes is very important. Yeah, because if we'd done a better job at telling the story about a young girl who's trying to juggle her social life, her work responsibilities, her class presidency, her DW not I initiative. Living in a new house. Yeah, that would have been cool. But we like...

We kind of cheated and we fast forwarded through some things that would have been, I think, meaningful to see. Talk about meaningful things. Yes, 100%. And seeing Karen panic that like, oh no, Brooke is going to become another one of me.

you know, under my roof. I promised her parents that I would take care of her. Instead, she's just like at your door yelling at you and like mad at you for buying makeup. How much did you love the Marc makeup commercial? That product placement's so mad about it. I'm like, I had to do a commercial for a brand for free and that's rude.

And I want to say Joy is the one that actually did the cover of Mark Magazine. Did she? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I did one with Lala Anthony when it first came out at MTV. And then Joy, I'm pretty sure, did a cover for Mark Magazine. But they had her out on the road. And they're like, well, we'll have Brooke have a huge treasure trove of Mark cosmetics. All this makeup. Which, by the way, doesn't make any sense because...

She says to Karen in one scene, like, ooh, I spent the money you gave me. And then she's like, look at all the stuff I bought. And it's like, well. Yeah. That felt weird. That felt weird to me. It was the first subscription makeup. Yeah. It was like Mary Kay, but for, it was Mary Kay, but for young people. Yes, it was Mary Kay. And so it was essentially like all these sites that we order from now. It's amazing. Time travel. I will say, though, I did love this.

What Moira and I got to do, the way that she explained, you know, chores and things and getting to play a little bit of the genuine confusion of like, well, what do you mean? So I pick one, like how do I pick one? How does it work, ma'am? And there was like, it was sweet for me to look back and go, ah, I...

I chose to play that with her in a way that was tender and earnest rather than like bitchy and affected. Exactly. And I really, I loved it. I was like, oh, I had some good instincts going in this episode. You did. Because it could have been another example of females being written as, you know, intolerable, really. There's so many of those like... Intolerable, entitled, like...

Yeah, there's so many things in this script where I'm just like, where was the girl in the room to guide this? But thankfully, we had people on set that could guide things, you being one of them. I struggled a lot. Like, if we're taking screen time away from storylines to have the butts and the boobs...

Jake doing the whole custody thing with his daughter without a parent present? What lawyer is going to meet with a 16, 17-year-old kid without a parent present? And again, these two beautiful storylines, Anna and Darby, Anna coming out to her parents, and then Jake and his...

being caught truly in a rock between a rock and a hard place you know it's so easy when we think about you know the law and and issues to go well there's a right and a wrong and this is very black and white life is gray it's muddy it's mixed and jake doesn't have a good option he has a bad option and a really bad option and brian played it so beautifully and i

I just thought there, I was like, why aren't we spending more time here with this? And why didn't we, you know, hire at least one actor to play one of his parents? We didn't even need both. You're right. It was so weird. His mom or his dad could have been there. Or maybe he had two dads. Like, I don't know. One parent of any kind could have been there. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, Brian took a story that was so mustache twirling. You know, Nikki's been written so one note as just like this conniving, you know, basically like girl Dan. Just like awful, awful, awful. Yeah. Very little nuance to that character. And she makes it interesting and she does a good job. And she's like, that is my daughter. And you know what? She is entitled to know her daughter. Yeah. Yeah.

This story that Greenberg has to tell is like so bad where he's talking about Nikki falling asleep in the car and baby Jenny in the back with no blanket shivering, shivering, they're sitting outside of a bar, you know, it's horrible. And it was just so horrible that it also made me feel like.

like whoever crafted this episode hates women. Like there's just so much stuff in here that the woman is either the one yelling or angry or f***ing up or there's just so much misogyny just so easily sprinkled throughout this episode that I don't know. I don't know. I really struggled with

the reality of that story because it would be bad enough if she just like you know let jenny be in a dirty diaper for a really long time you know what i mean but they always had to turn it up to like crazy and it made me wonder like is that how they think women are well you know what i think is interesting too you saying that like because we talk a lot about how

When you make television, you know, of any kind, like, you need drama. Of course. You need something for characters to go through. But sometimes I think that that requirement for heightened reality can make us a little desensitized to how problematic it is.

have average quote average things can be like you saying what if she'd left jenny in a dirty diaper all night and you know if someone had suggested that there was a writer saying well that's not a big enough deal it is though and it is yeah you know neglect is a big deal and i am very curious about why there is a tendency in so much storytelling

to need the neglect, the failure, whatever the problem is, to always be a 10 out of 10, an 11 out of 10. They take it so far that weirdly I'm in this moment wondering if it makes us almost less sensitive to the smaller aggressions or issues that people go through.

Well, so listen, if you're watching a TV show and the bad guy, I'm saying that in quotes, does something that's not turned up to 11, maybe it's a four or a five, and it's something that you've done in your life, it's going to affect the way you watch that show or how you feel about that character. And so I personally, in watching things...

when the aggressions are microaggressions because it's like way more relatable to my life. Yeah. And so I like that. It's like, you know. Well, you can't divest from it. You can't go, oh, I would never. I would never. Oh, clutch my pearls, never. Look, I would never park a car

outside of a bar and sleep with my kid in the middle of winter, you know, with the frost on the windows, right? But when I watch certain TV shows or like somebody raises their voice with their children and it's traumatic, then you as a parent have to be like, oh God, have I been scary? Have I raised, and of course I've raised my voice, but it affects me more to see how it plays out on screen. Yes. I think Nikki's just,

Emmanuel is such a good actress and she's done what she could do with this writing where Nikki is just bad news. And I would have preferred if like she was working a shift somewhere and fell asleep in the car with Jenny. Like if she had like a.

if she had a thing, if she was studying, you know, she's in college or was in college. But if there was something that wasn't just so evil, you know, women, not every woman is evil. Taylor's seducing Nathan. Nikki's trying to kidnap Jenny. You know, it just all feels kind of meh, meh. Yeah. Not my favorite. Yeah, it is. It's really just so dialed up.

We also talked about how we had so many young writers, too. And so, you know, we really grew to love our writers as we got to know them, and a lot of them being male writers. But when you're young, you just kind of have to do whatever is on the board because you're trying to keep your job. You're trying to secure more episodes in the future. Yeah.

It almost felt like Hunger Games in the writing room on our show because everyone was jockeying for the credit, you know? 100%. I mean, I'll never forget one of the writers that I think you're referring to, who I won't mention by name just until I catch up with him and then see if he cares if I say who he is or not. But I remember...

you know, sitting all the way flash forward to season eight when, you know, we thought we were wrapping the show before we knew we were going to come back for the final 13 of nine. And I remember sitting at a, you know, bar top having dinner with two of the guys who'd been writing on our show from the beginning who started out, you know, basically like as grunts in the writing room. And they shared with me some stories that I didn't know. And they talked about

you know, things they'd heard about in LA, like starting in season one, you know, like when creepy, he, who we do not speak of on our show, who was inappropriate with so many people, but it was real inappropriate with me, like real handsy. And it got kind of,

I just like had a knee jerk reaction and I hit him like hard. What I didn't know is that he went back to the writer's room, like hemming and hawing and screaming. I think the phrase that sticks out to me and I quote was, who does that entitled little bitch think she is? And one of the guys said, I don't know, maybe she thinks she's entitled to not get her ass grabbed by her boss. Like, right. Yes. Trying to break the tension in the room.

And then was summarily told, you know, do you like having a job here? And it turned into a big fight. And they talked about how they all learned really quickly that defending us could mean they got fired and they were scared. And I'm sure there are people who will say, well, they should have done it anyway. No. But, you know, it's not black and white. It's really hard.

I compare it to living in a haunted house, Soph. People are like, how'd you live in a haunted house in North Carolina for so long? And it's like, it doesn't happen every day. Exactly. Right? It happens like once every three months and it's like, whoa, that was scary. And then it goes back to normal. And that's how it is when you're working in a toxic environment is that it's okay sometimes. Some days are okay. Some days are beautiful. And some days are really terrible. It's, I think it mirrors, toxic working environments really mirror abusive relationships. Yeah.

Yeah. There is often love there, at least for one person. And it's the cycle. It's the roller coaster. You never know when it's coming. And so what I appreciated, you know, to circle back to the story I started to tell, what I appreciated about that conversation is I got to hear from these men who were our friends, who did become really good defenders of ours as they got more

solid in their footing, share with me about the things they'd loved about our job and about working together and the things they carried shame about. Saying, you know, I remember this and it has been burned into my brain and I think about it a lot. And I'm really sorry I didn't have better tools then. And I just want you to know I think about it. And it was so meaningful to me

And it's through that lens, like we were talking earlier about the nuance, right? Like the good and the bad, and you have to be willing to be honest about all of it. It's through that lens of accepting that more than one thing can be true at the same time. Yeah. That I feel like I can look back and go, yeah, I get it. There's things I wish I'd done differently, and there's things I'm really proud of that I did. And it's all jumbled together. But I think that the more...

sort of tolerant we can become of each other and the more vulnerable we can be about what we wish we could go back and change would be incredible because then we can, we can certainly at least use the lessons to change the course of the future.

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The glimmers are there. What would it have looked like if a woman had put these pieces together? Because Chad's stuff is good in this episode. Like his stuff with you is like light and funny. His stuff with Anna is lovely. And then his stuff with Dan is all like, mwahaha. Yeah.

Maybe that's why Dan's such a good character in our show, because that's who was really pulling the strings. Like, that's the character they could connect with the most. Maybe. Yeah. That's... I actually really like that theory. I also... It was funny because watching the Lucas and Dan dynamic, I'm sitting here going, wait, like, when did it turn? They're suddenly at odds? Dan suspects... Look at, like... It's a sudden shift, but I...

I want to know more. I want to know what's going to happen. But now they're using all these weird literary metaphors about villains. That's so weird. I'm like, what? Wait, I thought that, I thought Dan loved having him there. I don't know. I don't know what's happening, but I need to know more.

Well, once the Keith secret is out, right, that's what Lucas was kind of protecting, I suppose. He makes the comment to Dan at some point where he's like, I'm just here so I can get my medication. Like, that's the only reason I'm saying that. Yeah, you're paying for my meds and I need them to stay alive. Yeah.

And then you're right. Like all the very exposition-y like book references, like I didn't know you were a fan of Arthur Conan Doyle. He's like, well, Moriarty's the villain. That's one interpretation. I was like, what's happening? Yeah. Yeah. Someone had just read that book and was like, guys, we should use this one. But then, you know, there's, there's this incredibly sweet element and it, and it,

connects through from the last episode where Lucas has made it clear to other people that he has feelings for Brooke, but he's not putting it on her, which I think is another really important thing to have a boy model. And when he's laughing about, you know, her cleaning the floor with a sponge and he says, you know, Brooke, this is a mop. He says that he will split the chores with her. And she says, you would do that for me? And he says, anything for you. And it's this moment where...

He's confessing his feelings, but not kind of running her over with them. And it's the first time you see her register it. Like, wait, what? And it's generous. He's done all these generous things to help her, given her his room and, you know, he's showing up to make sure she's okay. He's the one who says, Karen cares about you enough to ground you. Yeah. These are all new lessons for her.

It's nice to see the similarities between what Luke is doing for Brooke and then what Andy is doing for Karen and Lucas. Because the second Lucas finds stuff, he trusts this new boyfriend of his mom enough to go and be like, what are we going to do? Yeah. And he's like, I got to... It's cool. I got to do this. And Andy's like, no, we got to do this. And...

that's not necessarily a gift to Lucas. That's a gift to Lucas's mom. It's like, I'm going to handle your shit for you. So you don't even have to think about it. And so then for Lucas to turn around and do it with Brooke, that's what you do. You help people carry their bags. That's love. It's really, it's really refreshing. And it, it interestingly, as much as I hated, you know, the,

villainous vixen on steroids thing that they always did to Taylor. Mm-hmm. Lindsay McKeon is so damn charming. She's good, man. God, she's so good. I wish they would have given her, like, words. Give her words. Like, real, more real things to do. But I will say that as much as I hated, you know, the gaze of the dynamic that she was asked to play, I really did like...

the simplicity of that moment for Nathan when he says, I can't do this. And she says, because of Haley. And he says, no, because of me. And, and Nathan is saying, or he doesn't say no, but he says, because of me, he doesn't want to be that guy. He doesn't want to

fall back on his old validation tricks, which is very much what Brooke's gone through too. I don't just want to be validated by what I used to use to validate myself. It's a cool thing in a yucky storyline. It's a cool moment to have a guy say, no, I want to be a better man. And both of these brothers in their own way are trying to learn to be better men. Yeah. Yeah.

I liked seeing James blow off steam. I mean, that was fun. But yeah, I don't know. That whole bit was just like weird. She did such a good job with what she had because the whole thing of like, you know, you haven't been labeled yet.

And I have. And so I'm just going to double down and I'm going to commit to the thing that I am. I'm a party. But you're not there yet, kiddo. Yeah, you have a chance. I wish it had come more from her as the older person than Nathan rejecting her. Do you know what I mean? It was like, it was like,

They're going for it together. And then he rejects her because she's the sultry vixen. And her comeback is, well, I wasn't going to kiss you anyway. Yeah. It's all male, but it's all male fantasy. It's what you were saying. It's like, it's the, it's the gross older guy with the pen. It's his dream of how available a hot girl would be to him. And it's just like, not, it's not reality. I,

I would have loved instead is if they'd gone upstairs and she had just put on like a kettle and like made him tea or, you know, like had been like, okay, you've had your fun. Do you feel better? Okay. Now here's what's going to happen. And instead it just got taken right to the edge there when it even what was going on was crossing a boundary, you know? Yeah.

I certainly don't want to think, ooh, yuck. Can you imagine that in real life? Just like, no. No? Jinx? No. No. It is a hard pass. Hard pass. But Taylor coming down the next day and encouraging him to pick. I wish that conversation happened the night before. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say. Yes, I agree. And again, credit to her, Lindsay delivered everything.

so much under it. She, she personalized that idea of humans who self sabotage sometimes when, when, when human beings feel like they are beyond redemption, sometimes they go even further toward that, which has hurt them. And, and I thought she did all of this great work to, to give more quality to those words and,

But I do, I agree with you. I would have loved if when they got upstairs and he was like coming up after her thinking it was going to be a thing, she'd walked into the room and turned around with just like a blank face. Like, all right, cut the shit. Yeah. Did you have fun flirting with my friends? Did you have fun dancing on the bar? What's really going on? Like, yeah, if you're behaving this way, you're in pain. Let's talk about it. It would have been so unexpected. It would have been a cooler turn.

Right. As opposed to the push up against the wall, heavy breathing. Oh, Lindsay, she's so good, man. She knows how to make that work. And again, we we weren't in positions back then to really like push back against too much. You get hired to play the hot girl. You got to play the hot girl. You know, that's your gig. Now we know that smart is hot and and bossy is hot. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

That's why when Twitter first came out, I started that smartest sexy hashtag. I'm like, you know what's hot? You sure did. I sure did. I'm like, you know what's hot? Being smart. Your brain is hot. The rest of it is like window dressing. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. And that's what I think about that. The end of the episode...

Anna leaving. With Anna and her parents. Is there anything that we missed? Dan's bag of money. Hold on. Oh, yeah. Dan's creepy money laundering, whatever that is. I loved Anna taking Darby's advice and practicing her speech in her mirror. Yes. And the way they did that reveal shot that she was no longer in front of the mirror, but she was in front of her parents, and you just saw them blurry in the mirror. Yes. I thought that was a beautiful...

directing choice that's like that's cool camera work something that really also stood out to me that I found myself so surprised by and I know this is like splitting hairs but you know I love words she says mom dad you know I love you but there's something I have to tell you and I was like oh my god what a

What a thing to specifically choose because so many people, especially in 2005 thought, I love you, but I'm going to tell you something about myself and you might not love me anymore. It broke my heart. Yeah. Like if my eventual kid kids ever had to say to me, mom, this is this thing about my identity. I don't want there to be a butt in that sentence. Yeah.

I don't want them to feel that pressure. The assumption is I'm going to say something that ruins that love. Instead of I love you and I have something I want to tell you. I love you and there's something I've been keeping from you because I'm scared. The I love you, but I can't. I wrote but in huge letters in my notes. It just it. I don't know. It killed me.

I wish we'd gotten to keep her after this. Like, that's what killed me is I was like, we made all this progress, right?

She went through the whole journey. Yeah. And now she's going back to boarding school. I know. How important would it have been for like teens that really connected with Anna to have her there? Yeah, to have her there, to have her out at Tree Hill High, to have her, you know, fall in love, to have somebody at school be shitty to her about her identity and one of us punch him in the nose. Like it would have been great to have had her there.

Yeah, she's worth more than just the journey of getting there. Like, let's see the rest of it. Maybe if she'd put on leather pants and done a Coyote Ugly dance. You could have kept her. God. Babe, that's what we're going to do for our 40th birthday this summer is we are going to dance on a frickin' bar in little tiny baby pants. I'm in. Really tight, like painted on leather pants. I'm in. Are those bars still open in New York?

I don't know, but let's go find one. It was a moment. I bet they'd let us do it at our old haunts if we just asked. Oh, yeah. Hey, guys, can we climb on here? Do you mind if we just get up on this bar? I'll Clorox wipe the bottom of my boots real quick.

It's back to school season for the kiddos, which means it's the perfect time to get your vacay on. Beaches are empty, resorts are quiet, and cheap Caribbean vacations has fall vacay deals up to, wait for it, 45% off. Plus, you can score more site-wide savings and take an extra $50 off your booking now through September 5th. Take it now.

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For decades, the Mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

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All right. Do we have fan questions? We do. This week? We sure do. Oh, there we go. Okay. Well, this is funny. Letitia wants to know, if we got a tattoo together to celebrate our days in Wilmington, what would it be? We've decided where it won't be. The Tramp stamp. Soph's like, no. No. That piece of skin remains like the day I was born. It will always be sweet and pale and tender. Sweet baby flesh. I don't know.

What would it be? I mean, we've been talking a lot about this. Is it, are we getting a raven? Are we getting a crown? Are we getting Roman numerals? We don't know yet, guys. We want to know what tattoos y'all are getting. Can you send us some art, please? I love seeing those at conventions. It's so nice. Someone comes up and they've got like, people always leave on their arm. And I'm like, oh, we're right here. But we're back here. Somebody sent one the other day of...

Like this is the place like right here, like under their collarbone that I thought was very pretty. Interesting. I like a long slender shoulder tattoo. Oh, here? I know. Yeah.

one of my guy friends has a tattoo that starts under his ear and comes down to whatever muscle this is and then goes down to the shoulder bone and it is so pretty all i think about though now because all my tattoos are white because i never wanted to have them have to get them covered at work and then i got this stupid one on my arm in black i mean i love it it's beautiful but the time i have to spend in the hair and makeup chair every morning i'm like it wasn't worth it it

it just wasn't worth it so now anytime i think about where i might want a tattoo i think how exposed is it and how often will i have to add an hour to my morning to get it covered

You got to put it in places where if you ever get asked to do a nude scene in the future, you're like, oh, man, I'm so sorry. I got all these tattoos. I can't. You should probably just get a body double. I just recently got this huge tattoo on my hip. I didn't know it was going to be that big. It is. It was for my friend's 40th birthday. So...

Those, that's there now. I got one hip left for us. And then. All right. Are we the kind of girls that get like thigh tattoos now? Maybe. I think they're kind of sexy. I don't know. I do too. You know what? I really do think we need to make some temporary ones and just stick them all over us and figure out where we like them.

Try some things out. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, you guys send us some ideas. We'll get it turned into temporary tattoos. We'll try some things out. Maybe we'll even get you guys some. If you want some temporary tattoos, maybe we should just make them. I think we ought to. I think we ought to. All right, Leticia. What else do we have? Michelle wants to know, what's your favorite thing about Peyton, Brooke, and Haley's friendship? And what's your favorite thing about your friendship between you all in real life?

I like that we all give each other space to be good at different stuff. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, Peyton, Brooke, and Haley all did that. Yeah. And I think that we do that in real life. Like, look, all three of us like to sing, but we know Joy's the real singer. Yeah. That's her thing. Yeah. We all are super involved in advocacy, but, like, you're the senator. Like, that's your thing. Mm-hmm.

I'm the farmer. Like we all everyone has bees, but I'm the one that's like really dirty. You know, you have like a full blown farm. So we give each other space and don't like step on each other with these passions because identity is something that's sacred. Yeah. And you know what I think is is special, too, is knowing we all have a lot of overlapping loves and.

Each of us who's kind of the expert at whatever we're expert at supports the others in coming toward our thing. Like I've seen a lot of friendships and I think especially among younger women because society teaches us that we are each other's competition, which is so dumb. I'm like, that's the ultimate misogynistic trick is to keep women fighting so we don't pay attention and like kick these guys' asses. Yeah.

I've seen female friendships get really tense when it's like, no, that's my thing. You're territorial. And one of the things I love so much about all of us is that it's like, oh, you want to try this thing I love? Come here. Let me tell you how I did it. Let me tell you what works. Let me tell you what to feed your bees. Let me tell you what it's it's very inclusive and welcoming. And I think that.

You know, our characters did versions of that on screen as well. And I think it's probably the reason why so many people talk about how they want friendships, like Brooke and Peyton and Haley's. And I just think like, oh man, we're so much better in real life than we are on TV. In real life?

We're not kissing the same dudes in real life, guys. We sure are not. Oh, God. We sure did dodge that bullet. I mean, at least I think we did. Yeah. Yeah, we dodged that. You know what I also will say that I really like? Because we're, you know, honest, blunt ladies. I like that we all really big up each other's husbands, too. Yes. It's important. It's really sweet. And, like, guys, we, like, we really go in on it. Like...

I'll send you guys a photo and you guys are like, Grant looks hot. Yeah. And like, you guys posted your thing about the booze launch and I was like, Hillary, Jeff looks freaking hot. He's a babe. We...

We go so hard for each other that now we like go really hard for each other's partners. Yeah, you have to be with the three of us. You can't just be with one of us. It's crazy. Yeah, no. It's like we're a package deal. And I love that it isn't just like, oh, he's being sweet or oh, he did that nice thing for you. Like we're, you know, we like...

we like what we like we like what we like i'm trying to think of what the word is i'm like it's not like we we don't flirt with it's that's not it but we we cheerlead all the things including like yes you you nailed it the children i don't know if i'm making any sense i can't find the words right no it makes total sense because you know your spouse always um is more supportive when they feel included

And we've been in relationships in the past where our partners either haven't felt included or felt slighted. Or felt jealous. Jealous, yeah. They're jealous of the time and stuff like that. And so I think we all make an effort to...

to love on each other's special people, whether it's kids or spouses or best friends or whatever, so that it's inclusive. So to answer Michelle's question, you know, collaboration over competitiveness and inclusivity is,

are, I think, the most important parts of our friendships. Just love up on your people's people. It makes everything play nice in the sandbox. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. We have one last question. Leah, the last OTH co-star you texted besides the three of you? I mean, I did that this morning. Mine's Brian Greenberg. I was on the phone with him yesterday.

I texted you and Daniil and Joy this morning. On our group thread. Yeah. We have a couple. Daniil. Yeah. Daniil. Yeah. Oh, man. Children's squad. We love our people. We're pretty lucky. Baby, you want to spin a wheel? I really want to spin a wheel. That's a good idea. Let's do it.

Let's do it. You know what? Hey, I'm proud of you because this episode was a real stinker for me and you helped me see the bright side. Thank you. I love that. All right. Our most likely to scream at a spider. Scream at a spider. I mean, in real life. I don't know. I don't I don't know.

All the chicks on our show were like dames, you know? Nobody was really a flower. No. There was just like a giant black widow in my garage. And one of my friends was over here like, oh my God! And I was like, let me just go get a board. I'll kill it. I'm going to get a cup and a piece of paper. I mean, I smashed the poisonous ones, but.

Yeah, I don't know. I've got a collection of their little corpses. You know who I would love to see have the like, ah, at a spider scene on our show? Would be Skills. I think Antoine would make that so funny. He's good at that physical comedy. Like if Skills were afraid of spiders, it would be completely unexpected and hilarious. And he would ad-lib something great. And it would just, yeah, it would be a very hilarious scene. Yeah.

Do we think Antoine's scared of spiders in real life? Probably not. He's so chill. He'd be like, whatever. There's no sissies on Tree Hill, friends. We don't have any. Tough as nails. What's our next episode, babe? We're getting close to the end of season two. We are. This is episode 19 coming up. Mm-hmm. It is I'm Wide Awake, It's Morning. Do we think it's going to get better? Do we think it's going to be like, I want my Haley back? I will say...

We've had these sort of cyclical moments where when we have a show that really creeps us out, often the next one is pretty good. Like, okay, I'm hoping that that's the way this is going to go. I can't wait. That 18 was just kind of a slightly unfortunate blip on the radar. Well, we found the silver linings. Thanks to you. My sweet sister who doesn't know how to mop. Yeah.

Loves a sponge. Loves a sponge. You guys are the best. We will see you next week. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at DramaQueensOTH. Or email us at DramaQueens at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. School drama girl drama got them high school queens. Pride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. DramaQueens. DramaQueens. Smart.

It's back to school season for the kiddos, which means it's the perfect time to get your vacay on. Beaches are empty, resorts are quiet, and cheap Caribbean vacations has fall vacay deals up to, wait for it, 45% off. Plus, you can score more site-wide savings and take an extra $50 off your booking now through September 5th. Take

Take this as your sign to pencil in a vacay this fall and turn back to school season into back to beach season. Go to cheapcaribbean.com to find your next all-inclusive vacay offer and September 5th. So I have some big news for vegans and vegetarians everywhere. It's Hellman's

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