Smoke and Mirrors • EP211
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Welcome back, friends and family. Today we are discussing season two, episode 11, The Heart Brings You Back.

It originally aired January 25th, 2005. This episode put me in all my feels, you guys. Haley is surprised when her older sister Taylor comes to town, but not as shocked as Nathan, who recognizes Taylor from his past. Meanwhile, Brooke and Felix decide to become boyfriend and girlfriend. God, she's so sad about it.

While Jake surprises Peyton when he shows up in Tree Hill and Anna confides a deep secret to Lucas. Guys, I got to be honest. We often skip the recap when we watch episodes together. And I don't know what it was about this week. We ran it and I was watching the recap and literally I'm sitting there on mute going, oh my God, Jake's back. That's right. Wait, Felix said he'd protect Brooke's heart, but you can tell she doesn't want to say yes. Oh, and then Lucas is in the door. I forgot. And Dan is...

And then there's the reveal of Dan working with Jules in Depth to the Carrot. Oh, so dastardly. I actually wrote down all of the recap. For some reason, I never think about the recap. But I was like, okay, here's where we left off. It was a lot of drama. It almost felt like a cliffhanger episode, didn't it? Yeah. What was the break? Was this the last episode before the holiday break? Because remember we would take a big chunk of time off? Yeah.

I think it must have been. Because, yeah, so much happened leading up to this episode. And then this episode's exhausting. Like the list of things that happened to everybody in this episode. Everybody's getting some, though. You know it's going to be an episode about big feelings because it starts with the sky opening up. Like a downpour begins and you're like, oh, everybody's about to have a bad day. When it rains in Trio, everyone's going to cry. Yeah, man. Oh, my God.

It's a metaphor. I love that. Something about, where is it? Oh, yeah, because Jake walks out. Okay, well, first of all, where we left off, we have Keith loved Jules, but she's with Dan. Peyton calls Rick for drugs, but Jake is back! Exclamation point, exclamation point. Lucas wants Brooke, but he finds her kissing Felix. Haley runs off with Chris. And then we have Deb confesses to Karen. So can we start with the most exciting part of all of this, which is Jake is back. Guys, I love it.

I love Jake Tagalski. The way he walks up with the thunder. It's like the thunder from the storm is surrounding him and the lightning and flashes on his face. And he just stands there staring at you. He says, who the hell are you? Yeah.

Sticks up for Peyton, gets rid of Rick. Yeah. And you guys have that big embrace. I love a high school boy who will chase off a drug dealer. Do you know what I mean? Like that's a grown ass man. And this high school kid's like, I'm going to kick your ass. You know, like that's that's like BDE. That's strong, man. I'm into it. Yeah, it's yeah, it's major. I also love that.

As if we needed any more proof that Rick is a creep. Again, he goes, oh, high school girls. It's like, no, stop saying that. You sound like a pedophile. I mean, but maybe he is. Treehill had some weirdies. I'm sure there was like some underground scene that Rick hung out in. I don't like it. I didn't like it at all. Your chemistry with Brian Greenberg in all the episodes, but this one in particular, having him back, it was like,

He's so soulful. We've talked before how he's like real life Lucas, right? Yeah. He's so soulful and thoughtful and he's perfect to play a grown up single dad at that age. And the way that he sweeps you up in his arms, the way he looks at you and talks to you and takes care of you. Guys, I'm just like, I'm so into Endgame, Peyton and Jake. I'm sorry. Don't hate me. I know this is him. No.

Can we have both, though? Like the fan base gets really mad if they seem like if I seem like I'm leaning in one direction or another or, you know. I know. I know. Because they misdirected me, you know, like I was told that Peyton and Jake were endgame. And I don't know if that was a misdirect on our creators part or if that's what they thought was going to happen at the time. And then they changed their mind later. I don't know. I was a child. Yeah.

But I think Peyton deserves to have her cake and eat it too. So why can't they both be endgame, you know? I agree. And it was interesting to me. Spicy. You know, listen, that movie Sliding Doors was great. I think this is the sliding doors of Tree Hill. Sliding doors.

Oh my God. What a reference. I did love that movie. I loved that movie. And I do think it's really interesting because, you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but we all put things together far down the line in the experience of making this show together. And after the show went off the air, we're like,

realizing that like we all got told different things. Oh, yeah. About who was endgame, who was what. Like they told each of us we were endgame with different people. None of us knew what was really coming. But I got to say of all the misdirects that the writers gave to us as performers, the one I'm actually the saddest about is the Peyton and Jake misdirect. George Clooney, it's all his fault. He took Jake from us.

Brian Greenberg was a really good friend in real life. And so anytime I went to L.A., he's the person who would like pick me up from my shitty hotel and make sure that like we were doing something cool. And so that energy, that kind of like I'm going to take care of you energy made performing together really easy because I had a natural trust with him. And we were friends, which we know is the basis of the best relationships.

Yeah. So that buddy energy is strong, but Peyton and Jake get to turn it up to 11. Yeah. You know something I really loved? I loved, and it becomes a device throughout the episode. There's...

With every group of characters, there are these pacts about keeping each other's secrets. Oh, yeah. There's an energy of, let's lean into trust, and if you protect me, I'll protect you. There's a lot of vulnerability in this episode. And one of the things I really loved is that as the script was written and as it was directed, they used these misdirects of imagination and dreams to show how vulnerable people were feeling.

And the misdirect of Peyton falling asleep and thinking she dreamt that Jake showed up. And then he's in her room just watching over her. I loved it so much. And then there's the misdirect of Hayley. Hayley on the bus. On the bus. Oh, my God. And then...

I was like, she doesn't have a toothbrush. What is she doing? Where is she going? And then you realize. I totally forgot that was a dream. Yes. And then you realize she thought about getting on the bus, but didn't. And even the, it wasn't, it wasn't a dream, but the misdirect for Lucas of coming to tell Brooke and open up and tell her about his feelings. And then she's with Felix, but you see how sad Brooke is about it. Yeah. Like these misdirects and these, these sort of bubbling moments of potential. I loved that.

as a device around everybody's secrets. I like how all the different kind of like romantic entanglements represent different things too. I mean, obviously like the Felix Brook thing is a physical relationship. It is a, you know, there's even like a financial element to it that is a power play. Then the Jake Payton thing is very much like we're buddies. Like I tell you my hard stuff and like you help me and

And then the Haley, I'm calling him Tyler, fucking Chris Keller stuff. But that sexual tension and that,

weirdness is so like talent based and artistic connection, which is a very intense connection, especially when you're young. You know, these are three very different relationships and they're all going to pan out differently. But I've had all three of those relationships in my life. And I think it's same. I think the person you land on should probably be a mix of all three. Right. Right.

Yeah. One can hope. One of the things I love too is watching the relationships change as people feel more secure. Like...

Or insecure. True. Like you see Nathan and Haley having a rift and being pulled apart by this energy. You see Peyton and Jake leaning into their safety and security and into the platonic nature of their relationship. Not that it isn't charged with romantic feeling, just that they haven't crossed that line yet. And one of the things I loved about

in the mirroring of that, like with Hillary, with you saying to Greenberg, will you just stay here just to sleep? I liked seeing... Oh, it like broke my heart. But I loved seeing by the end of the episode when Brooke stands up for herself with Felix and says, I don't like that you're doing this. I know you probably don't mean anything by it, but I don't want to be my mother. Yeah. And

And he says, well, just stay, you know, I don't want to go home. Everything's hard for me, but I don't want what exists in my house. And he says, stay tonight. And she says, no, I'm not in the mood. And he says, stay anyway. And he offers her just sleep here with him. Yeah.

It's such a powerful thing to just be held by someone. Oh, my God. I just loved it. Well, that's the line at the end of Waitress, you know, where she's talking to her baby and she's like, dear baby, I hope that you meet someone who just holds you for 30 minutes straight and doesn't try to kiss you. Oh, God. Excuse me while I get my tissue. Listen. Oh, God.

That was always kind of my favorite part of relationships when I was younger is that very tender space between...

Between crossing that boundary, like getting to know someone enough to trust them that you could sleep next to them and then crossing that boundary. And I would make that last as long as humanly possible. Oh, yeah. Stretch it out. Don't touch me. Don't touch me. You can touch me. Oh, gosh. I've definitely done that. Like, just come over and just be here. We don't need to do anything. It doesn't have to be sexual. It just...

the comfort of having you hold me or be next to me or feeling like that warm body that of someone that you love and a heart that you are connected to. It's so powerful. And I think there's something really beautiful about allowing room for that because I

Physical intimacy also has the capacity to be a distraction. Oh, yeah. It's really easy to not talk to someone or get to know them if you're making out with them the whole time you're in a room. It's Pandora's box because the second you start that... Yes. How many of us have stayed in relationships way longer than we should have because the physical was just so great? Yeah. You know what I mean? No comment, Joy. Yeah.

Or think about when you were younger and maybe you allowed something to turn into a relationship that outlasted what it should have because you felt like that's what being physical with someone meant. Oh, yeah, that I have to be your girlfriend. No, dude, I just wanted to kiss for like 10 minutes and now you turned it into a thing. Just make up. You ruined it. You ruined it.

And so there's been so much like jumping into bed on our show. So, so, so, so much. So there is something that is very pleasing to me that Peyton, that Hillary Burton, the 22 year old, how old

22, 23? Yeah, 22. Was finally getting her way. Like, you know, we could have a relationship with a dude where it doesn't involve, you know, sucking face and riding around on each other and he can just be nice. Lucas actually makes a, says a quote in this episode. It's a Tennessee Williams quote. At the top, yeah. I wish I'd written it down, but it was something about lonely, how basically the idea is if every, if there are so many lonely people in the world, it would be, um,

unimaginably selfish to be lonely alone. Oh, yeah. It really got me. Well, what I loved about it, again, all these characters, there's something about, to me, really good writing creates these circles that connect and you don't see them coming. And that quote at the beginning, right as the rain is starting and everyone is feeling like raw nerves emotionally, does that full circle moment in the end

when he's the only one who knows Anna's secret, she trusts him to hold her secret. And he looks at her in that beautiful slow-mo sequence on the quad. God, I wish we had more of those on our show. And he says, are you feeling left out? And she nods and he says, you want to feel left out together? And they link arms and they walk off. And it's, it's,

It's a teenager's way to reference to another teenager that Tennessee Williams quote, let's be lonely together. Yeah. My heart. That is something that has been actually really...

has created a monumental shift in my life when I really started understanding that the key, when I feel lonely, the key is not for me to go deeper inside and feel lonelier. The key is to reach out and not ask, not necessarily call people and say, hey, I feel lonely. Can we hang out? Which sometimes I just do because you know what? We all just need a moment like that. That's how we started FaceTiming each other at the beginning of the pandemic. It was like, guys!

I know, but I really miss you guys. I'm scared. Overall, I'm generally too, unfortunately, too proud to tell people that I actually need help. But what does make a difference for me is just checking in. Like if I just stop thinking so much about myself and my loneliness and my wallowing in my own and just start checking in with my friends. Hey, how are you? What's going on with you?

I'm so encouraged. I'm either encouraged by the positive things that are happening in my friend's life, or I feel comforted knowing that someone else may be going through something similar to me and we can do it together, you know? Yeah.

It's the key. It truly is the key to getting out of loneliness. It's shifting the focus. Joy, I agree with you 100% because I tend to go into a rabbit hole in my own head. And to claw your way out, you have to reach for someone else. And so, especially in the last two years, I've had so many times where I'm like, oh, I should call and check on someone so I just stop being self-loathing. I'll hate myself less.

I reach out and try to help somebody else. Yeah. I can hate myself later, but right now I got to make a phone call. Focus is on you. That's the key. But you know what it makes me think about too? And it's something I really cherish, not only about our friendships in our lives and offline, but about the things we're willing to do when we show up together online or in public or on this podcast. Yeah.

I have learned at our conventions and through our socials and all these things that our willingness as women to talk about that kind of loneliness, self-loathing, the human experience of sadness has also offered, I think in the way our show did to our community,

our fans will say, oh, well, if you guys are going through this, then I'm not weird. Nothing is wrong with me if I'm going through it too. Yeah. And I think there's something so beautiful about...

being a little vulnerable about your experience because your brain tells you people are going to go, Ooh, that's a lot and lean out. Yeah. But when you're, when you're open, everybody goes, Oh, you too. And they lean in. Yeah. And what a gift. Yeah. Yeah. We got to break that barrier. There's so there's just, everybody's looking at somebody else going, man, they really have their life together. They've really, actually, this is a quote that Anna wrote.

Yes. Oh, shoot. It's in the next episode, guys. I'm going to say it anyway and we can talk about it, but it is in the next episode. Say it. Say it. But she says she and Lucas are walking down by the river court. Not river court. The river? The waterfront. Yeah, the river. Okay.

She says, look at all these people. They figured out what they want and they managed to find it. And it's such a perfect myth. We all think that. We all look around and we're like, look at all these people who figured out what they want and they managed to get it. And it's a lie. Everyone is searching for something. We need that bullhorn. It's a lie. Yeah.

Is the next episode of our podcast called A Perfect Myth? Because I like it. A Perfect Myth. It is because everybody falls into the trap and now we've got social media backing us up because everybody gets to post the highlights of life and it looks like it's the real thing. I mean, even when we had our New York Times thing came out and it was very exciting and it was like, wow, you know, we had a great morning. But you know what else? I still had to go shovel.

in my backyard. I'm still dealing with some personal drama with, you know, so-and-so and over here. And then I'm dealing with, you know, school drama and some medical drama. And I'm just in my sweats and I'm tired and I need more... It was like a three-cup day. And, you know, it's just...

And then I'm getting emails like, you're the hottest thing ever. Oh, my God, look at you. Like, you're so hot right now. And I'm like, yeah, let me tell you. Let me just snap a photo real quick of how hot I am right now. Yeah. Not. Not. Yes, you are. I don't feel the hype of anything. But you don't feel the hype. You just feel normal life. And everyone else is looking at you perceiving something that's not real.

Hype is other people's perception and it is not your reality. Totally. I mean, I still had to sit in the school pickup line, y'all. You know? I think I posted, guys, I fell in donkey shit that day. Like I was just like, it came out and everyone was being all sexy and I'm just like, this is so gross. I should have taken the New York Times and just like posted it in my windshield at least driving into school so I could be like, guys, look, I cleaned up once. We did it. That's right.

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Let's talk about other characters on the show in that vein. Because I remember when Haley's sister Taylor was introduced and was so sexual right out of the gates with Nathan. And it was inappropriate because she's older and he's a high school boy and all this stuff. And I, God, I don't even know who said it. Joy, it might have been you. But I remember...

kind of chafing at the whole thing a little bit. And someone within our like female circle was like, that's not a slut. That's not a whore or a tramp. That's a, that's a chick with some sad stuff going on.

And all that projection, all that putting on the lotion, all that like flirting and whatever, you don't know what's going on inside of a character like Taylor. And I don't know if we discover it down the road, but it's hard to watch as an adult because now you see like a little kid. Now you see like a little early 20-something that's just a disaster. Yeah.

One of the things I thought Lindsay McKeon did beautifully with that is she does give you that visceral feeling. You're like, why are you just like putting your body everywhere in front of your sister's husband? Like, what are you doing? It's so overt. And again and again and again. And then...

when she finally tells her secret to Nathan, which she'll only do, by the way, because she holds a secret over him. She knows she can lord his first sexual experience over him. So when she opens up to him at the beach house about being such a lost soul that she's had an affair with her college professor, his marriage is destroyed, her college career is destroyed, everything is ruined. Which, by the way, it shouldn't be. FYI. Ah.

Yeah, by the way, the professor's fault. But anyway, you see what her suffering is. And she really, she let the veneer of being this stunningly beautiful, sexy woman down.

For long enough that it got uncomfortable. And then she cracked another joke about how sexy he was. And I was like, oh, my God, watching this as an adult. Yeah. I hurt for her. I hurt for this girl. And I saw what you're talking about, Hillary. Smoke and mirrors, man. It's all smoke and mirrors.

Oh, and oh, that's so true. What about that shot at the end when she's in the shower in the steam in the mirror? And looking at Nathan. It is a smoke in mirrors. It's like that's a perfect metaphor. I love that shot too. It was such a beautiful shot. Oh my gosh. The scene that when she wipes the steam away and she looks at Nathan, you can see her bad habits going, I want that. That'll make me feel better. And you can see the trust that

And you see how touched he is and scared of being touched by this experience with her, Nathan is, and he chooses Haley. You literally see him look his past in the eye and go...

Nope. I used to be that. And I'm going to move over here. And I love the choice you made joy of being in a cute sweater and an apron. You literally dressed yourself as so opposite to Taylor in that scene. And when Nathan goes over, even though Haley's unaware of what's going on, you can see the, the gratitude on your face that he's, he's chosen to show up for you in that moment. And it is,

It killed me, the triangle happening there. And I thought Lindsay played it really, really well.

That got me too. It really did. The choice, like Haley looking like Betty Crocker in the kitchen and Nathan just walking up. How can I help you? Oh man, it was such a great, that's in my notes too. It's such a great arc for Nathan in this episode because why was he hanging out with her anyway? He was spending all day with her going to the beach. Like, well, I mean, I guess he was kind of doing the same thing that Haley's doing with Chris in a way of just exploring. Yeah.

Yeah. He was getting his ego fed. He was being reminded that like, he's a hot guy. Yeah. He was already feeling a little abandoned by Haley. So he needed some attention. And that was where he always used to go. It was just find a girl, find somebody who thinks I'm hot and get some attention. Well, let's talk about Lindsay McKeon because I, when she came in, um,

I mean, first of all, this has nothing to do with Lindsay, but it is, I guess, a bit of a grievance that I have with those in charge, which is that the women, with the exception of Maria Menounos, who is still moderately falls into this category on some level, but not the same. But we had this every

female guest star, we had this parade of sexy, slutty bad girls. Baby, are you saying there was a hooker with a heart of gold fetish happening on our show? Like, what is going on? Literally every single Peyton has slept with everybody. This is the first time she's not like jumping in a situation with somebody. Brooke is a hooker with a heart of gold. Emmanuel was a hooker with a, you know, like...

Yeah, that's a fantasy that our bosses had. It's just so creepy. And then we've got this, you know, then Taylor comes to town and she's kind of like throwing herself around. And, you know, then we've got, I mean, down the line, you can just keep counting down the line.

What they did, you know, with Danielle's character and even Elizabeth Arnois' character eventually. Like, it just, and it's exhausting. It was so, I think because this was like the third female guest spot that felt that way. It just, I don't know, it just finally hit it with me. I was like, God, this is so annoying. Enough.

I do want to talk about Lindsay because I really like Lindsay a lot. Yeah, she's cool. As a person, I really like her as an actress. I think she's incredibly underrated. I wish we had her on the show today. I guess we didn't think about that. Maybe we could get her soon. Yeah, she's back plenty in this show, so we'll get her back. But...

Lindsay's a really thoughtful actress. She's really prepared. And what's so great about working with her is not only is she super prepared, but she's also very in the moment, which I think is kind of hard to find, especially in the TV world, to have somebody who's really...

knows all their lines, knows the blocking, but also has ideas and is capable of changing them in a moment depending on what she's getting from the other actor in the scene. She doesn't have everything sort of structured and rigid. She wasn't afraid. She didn't come in, which is hard to do on a show like ours. It's really popular. The energy that she had to get involved with to come onto our show, like we are a tornado. Yes.

Yeah.

And to have a guest star come on a TV show and have the confidence to just speak up, have their ideas, and hold their own space. Yeah. As an actor, it's such a relief to be in a scene with an actor like that. And it's funny, I'm realizing, because maybe my memory doesn't serve me, but I don't think I really got to ever act with her. I really feel like most of it was between you guys, surely. But as you're talking about your experience of watching her do that...

The first thought that comes to mind for me is how freeing that would have felt to be reminded by someone because we were in a situation where we were so often told to disavow our power. Yeah. Oh, my God. I would have loved to have been just like rocking with her on set and have her be like, no, you're not going to do that. Like, what are you?

What a gift that would have been. She really did have cool older sister energy for me during this episode because, oh, Greenberg had just come back. I was like so pumped. And then they knew each other. Like, I think she dated one of Greenberg's friends or something. Oh, right.

And so we would go out after work, like while you guys were shooting. I remember going to Firebelly with her and Greenberg. And they, like, I just sat there like the high school kid because they were like talking about parties they'd gone to and like all these people that they knew that I didn't know these were her people. And I felt like such a little goober. And so in real life, she was Taylor. You know, like I was so just like, oh, she's cool. Like she's part of that scene. I guess I'll go.

sit in my haunted house and crochet. But also, by the way, really interested in people. Like she is a curious person, which I find to be incredibly attractive that she would love to, she wants to just hear about you. And she asks really interesting questions and just a true artist. So I love, and I love what she did with Taylor because again,

It was written as this very two-dimensional, just show up and stick your tits out and smile. And maybe raise an eyebrow here and there. And what fabulous eyebrows. And be the perfect villain that we... Amazing eyebrows. And she brought so much more to it. She brought those levels so that we did understand the damage, that it wasn't just some...

Well, how informative about Haley's family, though? Because that's been our beef with the girls on the show, is that the boys have fully formed families. And Sophia, you've said this publicly. You're like, we were... What were we, purses? Little dogs? And...

And so we've met Haley's parents, but we also know she comes from this huge family. Like, okay, how many siblings? How many boys? How many girls? So to see this glimpse into her family, now it makes sense that her parents were like, oh, you're so responsible because we see what the comparison is. Like we see what this other energy is.

And we get the first glimpse, thanks to Taylor, of where Haley's responsibility comes from. You know, when Nathan's so surprised by her and Taylor's a little offended that Nathan doesn't know anything about her.

She says, well, you know, it's because Haley blames me for the pressure she puts on herself. I was such a screw up that she had to be the perfect kid. And it's the first time that we learn that there's a family dynamic behind Haley's ethics, that it isn't just this girl who's always been this way, that there might be a pain point underneath, that she might want to not be such a good girl all the time. Yeah.

And that felt exciting to me. Yeah. And that really leads us into Haley and Chris, because that's a huge part of where that's coming from for her. She's never acted out because there was no space for her to act out. Her parents were probably dealing with so much craziness from Taylor and whoever else in the family that.

Haley was like, okay, I just, as long as I can walk the straight line, straight and narrow, keep everybody in place, nobody will be mad at me and I won't cause grief in anybody's life. Joy, I've seen a compilation of Haley just like punching people and like slapping people. And like,

You hit so many people on our show. Yeah, what the hell? You're a physical woman. And now we know it's because you've got this gangster sister who's just like, I bet you guys pulled each other's hair and punched and hit each other. Like there was no safe backseat in the James family car. No way. That surprised me when Haley grabbed Taylor's ear. I was like, oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, physical. Yeah.

It felt nice to see people not just standing around talking. Actually, I was glad. The ear grab is so delicious. It's like sisterly, right? It is. It's such a familial gesture and you see it and you go, yep, I know what that is. Yep. It's so good. I love looking at this, the dynamic of the sisters and especially for all the women in this episode, girls trying to figure out

How to be themselves, how to deal with pressure, how to kind of navigate bumping into the boxes they've been put in. You know, everyone's kind of hitting the edges and you see Taylor...

trigger that for Haley. We learn a little bit about Haley's perfectionism and the root of it. You see so much of it with Peyton trying to figure out how to come back from this loneliness, how to not fall into messes with Rick. And you see it with Brooke trying to stay away from the edge that feels like it's too much like her parental dynamic. And I love...

What Lindsay brings to the episode and what another phenomenal guest star who I feel like we just, you know, we praise her all the time because we're obsessed with her. Daniela. Yeah. What she does is Anna in that scene with the two of you, Hillary, when she comes in confessing to Peyton that Lucas ended it and she says, I don't know what I'm doing, Peyton. And you say, none of us do. And she says, do you think there's something wrong with me? Oh, baby. Oh, baby. Oh, baby.

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It's sort of become a non-negotiable in the last couple of years for me. You know, the same way that when I wanted to start getting in shape for the first time, I hired a personal trainer to show me the ropes of the gym and teach me how to not hurt myself while also getting stronger physically.

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You know, putting like OJ in little freezer things or what it would feel like to cut into a watermelon when you'd run inside and it was like 100 degrees out and you had cold fruit. I don't know. Does it make you feel snacky? The summer heat? Oh, yeah. I mean, when I think summer heat hit me with one of those rocket pops.

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articulate who they were in their teenage years or their early adult years. And so I take that very seriously. There is a part of me, you know, like Peyton is like, it's cool. It's cool. There's a part of me that wonders if Jake hadn't just come to town.

Oh, like if there had been a vacuum, right? Where Peyton, what would that have been? Cause that overlap is just so severe and there's no room for any exploration with Anna. But if Jake wasn't around, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What would that have looked like? You know, filling that void. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

I also love the way that you played it in exactly that thing, saying it's cool because you were so immediately giving her safety and

And I agree. I think at the end of the day, you know, we've just been talking about the dynamic that there were a bunch of people who wanted girls to be archetypes of male fantasy on our show. So they weren't really going to let girls have identity with other women in that way. Well, they wanted the kiss to be hot. Yeah. I mean, I totally wanted that kiss to be hot. And it's,

It's not like when teenagers kiss for the first time, when grownups kiss for the first time, it's largely awkward. We kiss for a living. That's what we do. And it's sometimes you catch an ear or, you know, like a jar, you know, but you got to be your teeth hit pain.

Peyton is the perfect person for her to have, you know, made that move because Peyton is for sure the least judgmental character on this whole show. I mean, she is just like welcomes people with open arms and their mess, I think because she's just acutely aware of her own mess. So she has no judgment for anyone else. Well, unless it's Haley kissing somebody and then Peyton's got a strong idea. No, but that's different. Judging someone is different than discernment and being aware of judgment.

what is something that's right and wrong and being willing to say that's right and wrong. Put that on a bumper sticker. Judgment is different than discernment. That is. Yes. That's deep. It is. Because a lot of people, and that's a game a lot of people will play with you. Don't judge me. Don't judge me. It's like if you're being an asshat to borrow Anna's great line. Yeah.

And, you know, somebody's got to be able to call you on it. It doesn't mean they're judging you. It means they have discernment. They're aware that you're being an asshat and they're going to say it out loud because somebody's got to be willing to say it. Yeah. And so I always see Peyton that way. She's willing to call a spade a spade, but I never saw her as judgmental at all, like totally the opposite. So it was a perfect, it was a perfect safe space for Anna. And I thought you did that really well.

Thanks. Yeah, I loved it. And I and I loved not only that, that your initial reaction was, hey, it's cool. It might not be how I feel, but it's cool. Like, you didn't want her to feel ashamed or threatened. And the last thing that you say to her is absolutely not. Don't be afraid to be who you are.

But Anna is so closed off because she's so afraid that she's running. She ran from her last town. She's running from you. Well, she doesn't know. There's no safe space for her to just explore. And that's the thing. It's like, it's so scary when you're a kid. But I actually think that it's the way Peyton reacts to her that enables her to go and be honest with Lucas at the end. Don't you find that's the case, though? It's like, I know I have harbored big secrets in my life.

And the work to tell one person, like there's this toxic thing in me. It makes it so much easier to tell the second person and then the third person. And then you have a community, you know, like it's finding that right first person is a pretty big first step, but it's, you know, it becomes a domino. Shame is so intense. Shame is like, it's, I think it's like the Achilles heel for so many of us. And shame,

It doesn't even always have to be well-founded shame. Sometimes it's just a shame that we've created in our minds because of what society tells us or our family or whatever we think is right or wrong or whatever. But yeah, it's so important to be able to share. But shame is really scary. Yeah. And sometimes I feel like it can be so difficult sometimes.

to confront the thing that you're ashamed of until someone can touch it or hold up a mirror to you. And I think for me, it was very interesting. I didn't quite remember this episode's dynamic with Brooke and Felix. Oh my God. I remember being so annoyed about, I was so annoyed that they made us like do a MasterCard commercial. That was kind of all I remembered. But,

I was at a scene in the restaurant. But what what hit me and what I'm really thinking about now, as you say, that joy is Felix, because of his parents, economic privilege is kind of the one person who can hold up a mirror to Brooke about what she's losing. And he becomes her unlikely confidant.

in talking about how all my parents are doing is fighting. They're fighting violently. They're breaking things in the house. They're sleeping in separate zones. This is intense stuff for a child to be going through. And for whatever reason, she doesn't take it to Haley. She doesn't take it to Peyton. She feels ashamed. But Felix is touching it. It's like he has a finger in the wound. And I think it's why for the first time,

she is able to identify verbally and maybe for the first time emotionally that she has felt very secure

Because of money in her family. And now that she feels like everything is falling apart, she doesn't want to seek it out because it would make her a version of herself that she doesn't want to be. Yeah. And it's only because he's forcing her to confront her shame that she can realize that and try to choose something else.

Wow. You know what that made me think of also talk about full circle in this episode is that how shame really just increases loneliness because it keeps separating you from people because you don't feel seen because you won't allow yourself to be seen. And the way that the loneliness also ties in with everybody sort of feeling this sense of being alone and

Is it because they're holding on to their own secrets? They won't just open up and share. And it's a really interesting cautionary tale to me watching Brooke and Felix, because here's a girl who is harboring some shame and is feeling lonely, and she just opens up to the wrong person. I mean, this guy, I'm sorry. Let me read this Felix quote. You're with me now. I'm going to take care of you. If I...

Girls. Don't do it. Or guys, whoever you're with. If your partner says that line to you, I've just, I personally have never heard anything good come from that. It's so, God, it's so creepy. It's so patriarchal. Demeaning. And patronizing. Yeah.

You're with me now. I'm going to take care of it. I've got it. Don't you worry little girl. I've got it. Do you think this is what happened? Poor Brooke. This is who's available to her and so she's just getting caught up. Lucas is trying to get in there and I think that's probably

Probably what Brooke's shame is because like the nicer Felix is to her, there is a shame in knowing that maybe you're gaming someone a little bit. Like, have you dated someone that you don't necessarily want to be dating, but you're just like, this is what I'm supposed to do. Oh yeah. Yeah. So, but there's shame in that because you know the other shoe's going to drop at some point, right? Like it's not sustainable. Yes.

I also think Lucas hurt Brooke so badly that you can see it in that scene on the quad where he comes to talk to her. And then, you know, Felix comes in at the end and there's he doesn't actually get to tell Brooke. Lucas doesn't actually get to tell Brooke how he feels. Yeah. You can see how painful it is for her to be near him. When Lucas is nice to Brooke, it hurts her.

Because it reminds her of what he did in a way. And Felix isn't exactly what she wants, but he's never betrayed her. And I think it's a very human thing to try to choose something that doesn't feel like it could kill you. It's good on paper. Also, Lucas... Yeah. Yeah.

Also, Lucas probably feels to Brooke like it's like, you know, with shame, it's hard to admit something that you're ashamed about to someone who you think maybe is better than you in a way. And with Felix, he's so obviously a screw up in so many ways that admitting the shameful stuff to Felix is maybe feel safer, less embarrassing. There's nothing I can tell you because you're a train wreck. I can tell you anything.

I don't know. What do you think about that? Am I right? Or is that like... No, I think you're definitely right because there's no stakes. You know, it's like I can confide in you because I really don't give a f**k if you think I'm right or wrong. Right. And with Lucas, it's not that she thinks he's better than her. That's the wrong phrasing. It's just that...

It matters. What Lucas thinks of her really matters to her. I don't know that Brooke really cares what Felix thinks of her because she could walk away just as easily. Brooke gave her heart to Lucas and he stepped on it. Yeah. So now she has a broken heart in her hands and someone's being really tender with it. And she's like, this feels nice. Yeah. But it's the heart's still broken.

It's just, they're not in the same realms of experience. And I think it is, again, I just keep coming back to how human this episode felt to me. All these people having these really vulnerable human experiences. And I see her just having this human experience of my heart's broken and I have to figure out what to do with it. I can't snap my fingers and make it feel whole. So I'm doing my best. I'm trying my best here.

Yeah. Yeah. Makes me so sad. What about another? You know who was not, who was actively letting out her shame to someone who really matters is Deb. Yeah. Yes. It's hard. I mean, that's an adult taking the exact same scenario, but actually, you know, trying to own up to her mistake and going to the person that matters the most and sharing the news. Oof, that was rough.

Yeah, well, I mean, and so if you think about the other side of that, the Karen of it all, she also is kind of juggling two boys the same way that Brooke is. And it's, I just found out that Keith, who was my person without being my person, definitely slept with like my sort of best friend. Like, you know, they haven't put a label on it, but they're, you know, she and Deb are incredibly close now.

And they're business partners. Come on, that's insult to injury. Dan leaves her for Deb and now Keith sleeps with Deb. Oh, I didn't even think about that part. Come on. Oh my God, I didn't either. Oh, it's an old wound. That's a... Wow, wow, wow. Oh, that band-aid just flew off. Which actually makes so much sense for how intensely Karen reacts to that. Yes. Given that she never wanted to be with Keith anyway. Yeah. Right. Oh, man.

Oh, no, that hurts. That's an old wound compounded by a new wound because when she calls Andy and hears some chick on the phone, you know, it's shame. Oh, poor Karen. But honestly, like the shame of being cheated on, the shame of like being betrayed, it's not even something you did, but you carry it. And so Karen is carrying that from when she was what, 17 years old?

So to feel it again, like the first time she puts herself out there is mortifying. Well, and the interesting thing is, and Karen is representative of this for so many women.

When men behave badly, women are the ones who get branded for it. Women are the ones who get blamed for it. And women are the ones who get asked about it for all fucking eternity instead of the men who did it. Yeah. And it is so toxic. It's like such a side effect of a toxic patriarchal system. It's like, talk to him about it. I don't want to fucking talk about this. I don't want to talk about the loser I dated in high school or college. Like, leave me out of this shit.

Karen did ask. Karen did ask. She was the one that went to Deb and said, did you sleep with Keith? If she didn't want to know, she shouldn't have asked. But do you really think in any world she thought it actually happened? Or do you think she was warning her friend, hey, Dan's telling lies about you?

I don't think she thought in a million years that would have ever happened. Like if someone came to me and they're like, Hey, Hillary, joy slept with so-and-so. The first thing I would do is run to you and be like, babe, I heard that you slept with so-and-so. Isn't that crazy? And you'd be like, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah.

Super crazy. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's a good girlfriend move that Karen did. True. Backfired hard. Yeah, it did backfire. Yeah, I wish maybe it would have been. Yeah, I guess I guess that's true. That's the only way to keep the storyline going is if she asked the way that she did sort of meaning that. Yeah, I guess that's it. Because then at that point, once you lie.

Then I get why Deb was trying to like clean the slate, but there's a big part of me that's just like, why tell her to move on? Oh God, she would have never known.

And what, but it's not like she's, if she was still, if she was dating Keith, that's a different conversation. But the fact that they're just friends, there's nothing, nothing ever happened. There's, it's kind of none of her business. I don't know. Do you think that Deb assumes that they, that Karen and Keith hooked up at some point? Do you think it's like, hey, Keith's getting married. You know, we've both been with him. Crazy, right? You know, like, I don't know that they've ever really talked about it. I don't think so either. I also think, and I think it's very easy to say as viewers, right?

That's not appropriate. No one has the right to feel that way, but we're human. Yeah. Yeah. And people feel territorial. They feel loyalty. They feel we have feelings that aren't rational about our relationships. And so Karen doesn't really have a right to be mad about who Keith's sleeping with. But Karen also, she does have a right to her own emotions. Yeah. She's got this whole weird thing with Keith and it's like,

I actually sort of loved the messy humanity of it because I was like, oh, her feelings are on display. Yeah. Listen, once we got a glimpse of like Irish Moira in that episode where she screamed at Chad, we're like, show us more. Yes. More, more, more, more, more.

Well, you know what else was on display? Peyton's bangs, which I loved. You guys, it's so much breakage. It looked healthy and fine to me. Listen, the only thing that saved my ass is that Scarlett Johansson had a mullet in this year. Like she intentionally cut a mullet.

And I was just like, yeah, yeah, me too. I'm just going to copy her. Hillary, no. I'm sorry. But they were like those cute little Sandra Dee, Audrey Hepburn bangs. And I thought they were really flattering on your face and very sort of wispy and girlish. And I just loved it. It was so retro. Guys, are we going to all cut bangs this year? Have we gotten to that chapter of our life? Joy, you just cut bangs.

I did. I've got long bangs. We're going to, I love that. We're going to get there. Hill. You were, you were asleep already the other night. I rapped really late. I was on FaceTime with joy and literally being like, wait, don't go. Okay. Okay. Yeah. We fully plotted exactly. And then she like twisted them off. I was like, okay, I'm going to do it. Oh, yes. Yes.

I have this big cowlick here. Yeah. And I've cut bangs not once, but twice in my life. Your bangs were fabulous on the show. Oh, yeah. I loved my bangs, but I've also learned the hard way that they require a lot of maintenance when you have a cowlick on one half of your forehead. Because I wake up in the morning and this half sits like this and this half goes like this. Yeah. So what I got from a very nice hairdresser that I've worked with, which changed my life,

I had a hairdresser look at me and go, why do you keep cutting them? I'll just get you a set. And I was like, what? Oh, yeah, that's right. Literally just a clip-in pair of bangs. I can have them whenever I want. And then they go away. Yeah. They make them in gray. They make them in whatever color you want them to be. No, actually, yes. There's a couple specific companies that do this, Hill. You could definitely get some. I mean, I love your Bridget Barjo bangs right now. Guys, let's get ourselves bangs. We deserve this. Bangs!

Yeah, Peyton, listen, that's how you know any woman is like going through maybe like a transition phase. I've got to cut this hair and I've got to cut it right now. Now.

Right now. But you know what the other thing is? Okay, here's one of the great things about cutting bangs. And not just bangs, but like I found I had to do some layers and all that. Because the thing is, if I go to a hairdresser and they do this to me, even if it looked exactly the way it does right now, I'm going to nitpick. I'm going to find something wrong with it. And then I'm going to be mad at them. But if I do it myself, I've got nobody else to blame but me. So I can handle being mad at me. Oh my God. Yeah.

That's the title of this episode. I can handle being mad at me. Like, we all handle our own bang mess. It's other people's mess that is, like, really confusing. I know. Don't confuse me. I can't deal with it. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Oh, you guys. Well, I really did love this episode. Yeah, same. I think we found some really good. I loved it. We dug in there and found some good gold in there. Yeah.

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You go to eBay. Seriously, there you'll be reunited with that designer goddess of your dreams, that iconic Gucci handbag authenticated by experts no less. And with that in mind, you might let a fun Prada mini bag catch your attention. But at eBay, wandering eyes are always welcome. So if you happen to also find the perfect cheetah print dress to go with that bag, we'll just call it fate, baby. So go ahead and let's take you down a Y2K adventure. Flirt with the endless possibilities, baby tees that say I'm

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The more you love, the more you'll find. From the new to the pre-loved and waiting to be loved. The timeless classics to the one of ones and everything in between. Yeah, eBay. It's the place for new, pre-loved, vintage, and rare fashion. eBay. Things people love. Friends, Symbiotica is a supplement brand that we love and trust. You've heard Hillary say, we're science fair kids. We love research. We love hacking our health. And for me in particular, I love,

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For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast, Misspelling.

When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, babes. Let's spin that wheel. Let's spin. Most likely to...

What do we got? Oh, oh, well. This is so obvious to me, the answer. Go ahead, guys. Oh, yeah. Somebody read it. Tell us. Soph, you read it. Okay. Who is most likely to star in their own reality TV show? Antoine. Antoine. Yeah. You're right. All the Domino's conventions in Las Vegas. Oh, yeah. And the basketball games. I watch that show every week. Yeah. Yeah.

He does. He does. And you know, what's so funny, joy. When you said that you were like, this is obvious. I was like, I mean, I guess Taylor James would have been on the bachelor, right? She feels like the character or like who wants to marry a millionaire, you know, like let's take it one step. She would have won too, by the way. Yeah. Oh,

Those are two answers. You guys with our production company, should we just do a TV show about Antoine? Just like, yeah. All right. We need some, some executive can call us right now. We've got the show. Yes. That's it. Well, I,

Our next episode is a season two episode number 12 called between order and randomness. Oh, something between order and randomness. That sounds like my life every day. We thank you for joining us for this scintillating conversation and interesting. These are some interesting topics we explored. I could go, I could go for hours longer on this. If I do say so myself. Wow.

Anyway, we love you guys. Thank you so much. Bye. Love you. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at drama queens OTH or email us at drama queens at I heart radio.com. See you next time. We school drama girl drama about them high school queen and our comic girl cheering for the right team. Drama queen. Drama queen.

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Take this as your sign to pencil in a vacay this fall and turn back to school season into back to beach season. Go to cheapcaribbean.com to find your next all-inclusive vacay offer and September 5th.

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For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪