Hot Topic • EP121
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First of all, you don't know me. We're all high school drama girl drama about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. You can be smart, go fashion, but you're tough, girl. You can sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens, drama queens.

All right, you guys, this is episode 21, titled The Leaving Song. It originally aired May 4th, 2004. This was a whopper, friends. The synopsis is just the tip of the iceberg. Lucas is shocked to learn that Dan once asked Karen for joint custody of Lucas when he was a baby. Meanwhile, Peyton panics after Nikki kidnaps Jake's baby while she's babysitting, and

synopsis doesn't even touch on the huge big perverted elephant in the room which is the porn plot huge porn plot they didn't want anybody not tuning in because the word porn was in the screen in the caption so they they just decided to remove that story i'm sure i mean i mean they didn't want the parents to know exactly exactly we can't let them know we're normalizing porn for their teenage daughters that'd be crazy insane

say. Well, let's talk about all the other stuff first because, you know, the porn's going to take a long time. So we're going to make people wait for the porn of it all. Just hold on, friends. Hold your horses. So we take notes, right? And my very first note. I've got a whole note file. From the top of the episode was where the hell is Karen's family? Yeah. What is up with that? Fans have brought this up. As

As she's having this conversation about what was going through her head at 18 and how Dan, you know, she was having to save Lucas from Dan. It's just like, where's her mom and dad? Because they would have been in the thick of that decision-making process as well.

Yeah, it's really strange that they just never show. I don't remember ever meeting Karen's parents. I mean, and I don't remember an explanation either. Did they die or were they just horrendous people and she didn't want them in her life?

I mean... Because they obviously lived in Tree Hill. Yeah, because she grew up there. And it's weird that a girl, you know, obviously Karen's storyline is she got knocked up in high school. She had this baby at 17 or 18 years old. Where is her family? Mm-hmm. Yeah, because really they'd be involved, right? Well, do we... Jake Jagielski talks a lot about his parents and his parents helping him with Jenny, but do we ever meet Jake's parents either? Mm-mm.

Because they're working like three jobs apiece. Right. We know they're hustling. Right, right, right, right. Okay, but hold on. Then that gives us a little bit of liberty here. If we're going to cast Karen's parents, who do we cast as like Lucas's grandparents, Karen's parents? That's such a good question. Who's got like strong Irish vibes like Moira? Like Brendan Gleeson? Yeah.

He would have been around at that time at the right age. Grandpa Gleason? That's right. Yeah, who else? Brian, what's his name on Succession? Oh, the patriarch on Succession. What is his name? He's so good. He's so good. I keep, I'm drawing a blank.

You know who I love for every mom character ever is Becky Ann Baker. She played the mom in Freaks and Geeks, and she was the mom on Girls. And she's like the mom in everything. And the TV show that I did with Sarah Wayne Kelly's down in Savannah, Georgia, she played the mom, and I geeked out really hard. And she's got like the red hair and is like all shucks, mom. And I can see Karen coming from someone super...

super kind like that. You know, someone who's like, I love the mom game. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I could see that too.

Or like a civil shepherd. Civil shepherd's older than Moira, right? But that's a great storyline. She would be amazing. Yeah. Like the reason Moira's not talking to her mother is because it's like... You know what I mean? She's a Jessica Lange or a civil shepherd. Yeah. That would have been so great. I love civil shepherds. Brian Cox from Succession. That's his name. That's who we're thinking of. Brian Cox. You guys, I would...

faint like my ringside match whatever cage match boxing fight whatever sport thing mine would be to watch Jessica Lange and Moira Kelly act together boom done I'm in yeah I gotta know what that side of the family is yeah vapor we just never never find out well Lucas doesn't seem too concerned with it since he's deciding to go off

With Keith by the end of the episode, which is a really big deal. And I thought Chad really performed that scene well because it could have...

He could have played the whole arc very differently where he's was angry with her for lying and then decides to go with Keith or almost out of retaliation for Karen. But yeah, but I love that he didn't play it that way and that it was out of, you know, he was trying to really break it to her gently and be kind and yeah. Oh God. You could see how much pain she was in when he said that. Yeah. You could tell that it hurt. And what I loved about the way he did it too, is he started with his own stuff and,

You know, he was talking, obviously, and what was the word we were using? He was sort of alluding to something with Peyton. Oh, yeah. It was such a weird conversation. He's like, I'm going to make some changes tomorrow. Wanted to see you before I did it. That's like, what? What does that mean? But then when he goes to see Karen and Keith...

He opens with seeing things from her perspective and how sometimes you really need to figure out how to undo your mistakes and that he needs to do that. And that he's not proud of the person that he's been behaving as recently. And that's such a beautiful omission of...

Fault. Fallibility. And the fact that we not only see it in Lucas in this episode, but we really see it for the first time in Karen. We've never seen Karen screw up before. Ever. I mean, she's been like a martyr, you guys. She's a liar. I love it. Yeah, we saw her party a little bit, but we haven't seen her really admit something. Drinking beers and doing cheers. Beers and cheers. I'm still not over it. Beers and cheers. Cheers.

- That was so good. - You know what else I really felt for, and there was such good acting in those emotional scenes for Chad doing all the stuff Lucas had to do, but I really felt for Chad and for James because they had to run in this entire episode.

Oh, that's right. They were running with weight plates. They were running in the streets. Doing all those push-ups. Oh, you guys. Workout scenes are the worst because they're like a minute long in the episode. Yeah. But they take like eight hours to film. It's like workout scenes and eating scenes are kind of on par because either way, you're just exhausted by the end of it. I say the same thing about kissing scenes. I'm done. It's been too much. Too much.

No, it does suck because you have to do it from so many different camera angles, which means that you're sprinting. You know, if they see it on TV once, you're doing it like 30 times. Yeah. In every setup. No, we didn't have to do that for the cheerleading. Thank God. Thank God. They were really good together. Chad and Moira play so well together. And you can see Chad's deep respect for her on camera because... Big time.

I know from working with him that he would cry on my coverage. The camera wouldn't even be pointed at him. He would be emoting just so that I could also do my performance. And so I see kind of that...

That reciprocity in his scenes with Moira. And that's an important thing for us to have learned in season one and us to have experienced from our older acting counterparts in season one because it set the tone for us as the show went on. Like, oh, this is how you show up for one another. And for him to be able to do all this heavy lifting emotionally with Moira, I feel like I lucked out down the road because we got to have similar like parenting conversations in season six.

But yeah, they play so nicely together. They really do. In the last episode, he gets caught slutting it up. Hold on. What did Brooke say? He out-slutted the both of us. That's what Brooke says in this episode. That's so good. That's right. That's right. I caught that little throwaway line. He out-slutted the both of us. He sure did. He got caught. And so this idea that Dan Scott was once a good boy that went down a dark path and

His wheels are turning this whole episode. Like, yeah, my God, is that where I'm headed? Well, and he's getting more and more opportunity. Lucas is to witness the dynamic of Dan and Nathan. And what a hard thing that must be to hold up that mirror and say, what parts of Dan Scott are in me? What parts of that man who is a bully and a brute are,

And who steamrolls the people he claims to love. Am I like him? Am I like him?

Who are we? Who am I? Where does this habit come from? I mean, there are so many things that are in a family lineage that get passed down through generations without anyone nurturing it into them. It's just there. Yeah. Yeah, go. Totally unrelated to our show, but oh my God, a woman that I've worked with, a fabulous makeup artist, last year, and I won't say who, but her story is so good and she tells everyone, so I'll just keep her name private. But she found out last year

She's our age and found out she has a secret sister she never knew about. And her secret sister lives in Australia and is also a makeup artist. Get out of town. Like nature versus nature. That's so weird. Right? And when they met, they were just like, oh my God, this is, wait, there's something in, there's something in us. Like we do the same job and we never knew each other. So yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. It makes sense to me that you could look at the person whose genes you share and go, how much of me is me and how much of me is you? Well, sure. And the idea that Dan wanted him. Oof.

He says some things towards the beginning of the episode that really made me sad because it seemed like he felt responsibility for Dan going toxic. Like, had I only been in his life, he wouldn't have gotten so hardened against Karen. Or it was almost like he was worried that the rejection that Dan dealt with when Karen was like, that's okay, hard pass. Yeah.

is what sent him down his ugly path. And kids do that. Kids will always find a way to blame themselves. Yeah. That's the thing I think is interesting because when we were watching the episode, we were like, God, that's way too much for a kid to take on. But it makes sense because as a kid, you often think if something bad has happened that you're involved in, it must be your fault. And what I think...

Is really interesting is for us now as adults to watch it and go, oh, if Dan hadn't been a dickhead, he would have said, OK, I'm not going to win in court. Let me prove myself. Let me show up. Let me support anyway. Let me show up anyway. Yeah. But instead he went on the war path and.

It's interesting to see him in this moment, in this episode, because as Paul plays him, it's like his 18 years of a war path has slammed him into a wall. Because he sees Nathan and Lucas bonding genuinely. It's so fun to watch. It's so fun. It is. It's so fun. But it is interesting to see how much it upsets him. And even Whitey calls him out on it. God, Barry's so good. When he laughs at Paul, I just am twinkled. Twinkled in his face.

I loved all the chess playing between those characters. All the adults, there was some chess happening in this episode. It was really fun to see. And I was really happy to see Brooke and Peyton back together again. Girlfriend. You know, as Nathan and Lucas were spending time together and becoming friends, there was some really nice bonding happening there. So my son is mystified by them all.

I don't even know if Gus has actually ever spent time in a mall before. I mean, we live in a really small town, so it's not like there's a lot of malls at our disposal. But for him, when he sees it, it automatically takes him to like a vintage place. He's like, that's where kids used to go, which is horrible. We really did. But like, do kids still go to malls? Is that like a thing that people still do? Just to walk the loop? I don't know.

I don't know. I actually don't know. To go walk around and see who you see. Oh, my God. You guys, we've seen so much trouble. So see, on our last episode, Emmanuel was telling us that what kids in Canada would do is park parties. Mm-hmm. Which, do you know about this? Park parties? We hadn't really heard about this. Yeah. Yeah. In Pasadena, you had park parties? Oh, by the way, God, we had, like, parking lot parties. You'd, like, go to the Rose Bowl and hang out in the parking lot at night. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But I don't know. I can't imagine. I don't know what they do now. What was your shop at the mall? What was your favorite shop? Ooh,

I wanted to be cool enough to visit Hot Topic all the time, but every time I went in there, I was like, what am I going to do with these fishnet stockings? I don't know what to do with these. I was really into like, God, guys, think about it. When we were in junior high and high school, wet seal always had glittery tops. Oh, my God, you were allowed to shop there?

I'm so done. Like on strict supervision. Yeah. And Bath and Body Works?

Oh, my God. And the body shop. You got to smell like orange sickle, man. You guys, my... Okay, so when I was in high school, I've told you before, I was in love with this boy for like ever. He was my best friend. And the day of graduation, he was having a graduation party, which I was not invited to. What? What? Okay, broke my heart. But... We're going to cyber stalk him later, Joy. You're going to give us his name. Yeah. Yeah.

I was determined to kiss him before high school was over because I'd been in love with him since I was like 13. I was so determined. It was like, can't hardly wait. So I went, I had gone to Bath and Body Works in the mall and I had gotten some sort of like summer berry chapstick and you better believe I smothered my lips in that shit. Yeah. God bless. God bless, man. Oh my God.

I think I had somebody drop me off or drive me. Maybe one of my parents. I don't know. Somebody drove me over there. And I rang the doorbell and he came out. And it was so weird because I was like, clearly I'm not supposed to be here because you didn't invite me, which I was too nervous. I was just too insecure to ask. Yeah, at this age, I'm like, what the f***, man? Why didn't you invite me to your party? I thought we were best friends. But

But, you know, back then, I don't know. I just thought, oh, he doesn't really like me. He's just putting up with me. So this is his party. I got to give him a space. I mean, I still have no idea why, but it doesn't matter. But I remember ringing the doorbell and he came out. You don't seem bothered at all. I'm not fucking bothered, guys. I'm not bothered. It's okay. Everything's fine now, guys. I'm not scarred for life.

You've paid to process trauma for decades, friends. We're still doing it. Yeah. Okay, so wait. But I kissed him on his front porch. You did? I kissed him. I totally kissed him on his front porch. Did you warn him or did you just go in for it? I just was like, congratulations. And I just went in for it. I made the move. He got a mouthful of berry flavored wax, I'm sure. And, you know, and then I was like, he said, thank you. Oh, God.

Every person we kiss should say thank you. I agree. That's right, damn it. Thank you. This is a heartbreaking story. I want to fist fight this person. Listen, if you've still got your berry lip gloss, I'll kiss the shit out of you. I think that is adorable.

And it's every teen movie. I'm going to pull my Hot Topic and Wet Seal in the mall. I'm going to ring the doorbell. Oh, my God. I wore the hell out of some Hot Topic. In fact, I'm going to.

I continued to wear Hot Topic while we were on this show. Like, other people had stylists and would, like, go to showrooms and, like, borrow pretty clothes. And literally for the teen people, like, for the Teen Choice Awards, and also for some other f***ing party I went to, I went and got clothes at Hot Topic. And on the red carpet, they asked, they're like, what are you wearing? And my manager about peed her pants when I was like, oh, Hot Topic.

You can't say that, Hillary. Oh my God. Now I'm like that older lady that would probably still wear clothes from Hot Topic. Friends, we all...

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Okay, but speaking of the mall, Hillary, I mean, especially with kids, do you, did you freak out a little bit still when you go to the mall or maybe when Gus was younger or if you just go with George? Do you get a little freaked out that if you turn around to like smell some perfume, somebody's going to steal her?

I am going to level with you. I hate my performance in this episode of like, oh no, where's Jenny? Because clearly I'm not a mother. Well, like while we filmed this. And I was like, acting scared is so dumb. I hate it. It's like so fake. Not good at it. I could act the hell out of that scene right now because the trauma of having a child disappear even for like two seconds is

It's like this internal thing that happens to you where it makes your like butt pucker and your blood run cold and you're just like, yeah. And so, yeah, I don't take my kids to crowded places because they're too cute.

Someone was going to take them. They're going to want them. I mean, I just train her. It's like, listen, if somebody tries to steal you, kick and scream as loud as you possibly can. And I run her through scenarios like, what if somebody comes up to you in a public place with a knife and they're like, come with me, kid, or I'll stab you. What are you going to do? You know, we talk about it. Is that what you talk about in the car on the way to school? Okay, honey, we're going to do some role playing today. Today, it's like acting, but for safety. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, my parents made us do drills. Yeah. Mine did too. Hardcore. Yeah, for sure. Do you guys remember in Rush Hour, the Jackie Chan, Chris Tucker movie, when that little girl gets kidnapped and she kicks and screams? You made her watch that? Yeah. I was like, you see what this little girl's doing? That's what you do. You go crazy. I love it. Yeah. No, the mall thing is scary. But Sophia, do you remember that day of shooting in the mall with baby Jenny? Because I just remember...

Like, having to pretend to be scared, and then when they would yell, cut, we'd have to be all, like, fun with everyone walking around, you know? So they didn't think that we were pretentious. And so the duality of feelings that day was just like... That was a really crowded mall. Yeah, it's actually...

I've learned it's really hard when you're working in a public place to be able to protect the energy that you need for the scene. Because you're right, when you cut, everyone assumes like, I'm going to go talk to you now. And it's like, hey, I'm supposed to pretend a baby was kidnapped. Like I kind of can't, I can't. I can't be cheery and then be traumatized and then be cheery. And it's like, it's psychological torture. And I remember feeling really...

really self-conscious whenever we had to do any very emotional scene in the mall. I was like, I don't feel safe doing this.

Yeah. Well, I need like a corner to cry in. And we had a real baby and like, you don't want her to start crying. Like Grace was such a good baby. And you can see she never looks into lens. She always looks to like whoever the coverage is going to like, that baby could work. It is actually. Cause it's always the baby in the scene. That's like looking up at the boom microphone and you're like, this is a TV show. Like there's something in the air. You know what?

You know what I do love? I love not only that she was such a good baby to work with because we were babies ourselves, but I love what got us to the mall. That scene of you and me in the morning on the quad when Lucas comes up and tries to talk to Peyton and she's like, no. And then you come and join me and we both in perfect sync throw this look back over our left shoulders like, wow. And I was like, oh, the girls are back. Yeah.

It was just so fun. For girls back in time. Exactly. It's a great way to team up with a girl. I did it once at summer camp. Okay, this is my favorite. I went to summer camp, and there was another girl in our acting program that was an alpha. We were both alphas, and we didn't know how we felt about one another. So I start kissing this boy, and next thing I know, she pulls me aside, and she's like, you kissing Matt? And I was like, yeah. She's like, I'm kissing Matt.

And so at lunch the next day, she sat down with him at lunch and they were having a conversation. And then I sat down with him at lunch and I just casually said like, what's up?

You know, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I just wanted to talk to Matt because we were making out last night. And we had the whole thing planned. And she stood up and was like, wait, you two have been kissing? And I was like, of course. Are you two kissing? The whole cafeteria, like, stops. And this boy is about to piss his pants. Stop it! Well, it was an arts camp, friends. The entire arts camp was aware that he was too time in the both of us. So then at the talent show at the end of the week, which we did at the end of the week every week,

the dancers acted out the scenario. Like people came out and sang songs about it. She and I performed cell block tango and we used his real name. That bastard never cheated on a girl ever again. But I can say humiliation. Humiliation is good medicine. It was such a bonding experience because in another world I would have vilified her. You know, just like, oh, she's after the guy that I'm kissing. But

But to team up with another chick and be like, no, actually, he's the bad guy. He's the one that's playing the both of us and knows exactly what he's doing. It was an important life lesson. Always check in with your girls. Check in with the other girl. It's important. I love this. I love it. I made a movie about it once. I'm like, you're literally describing the plot of John Tucker Mostow and I love it.

Oh, my God. Did you guys end up killing him in that movie? Like what happened in that movie? No, we didn't kill him. I mean, we killed his confidence and we murdered his ego. That counts. It's so fun. I like that too. And I think that is such a good, it's such a good lesson to like make sure that you, you know, you're holding the right people accountable.

Well, and it just makes for good juicy TV because now we get to go to the mall and we get to go to Wet Seal and Hot Topic. Were they trying to make us go into Victoria's Secret? Like, why are we staying in front of a bra store? Boring. Boring. Typical. And by the way, why do we keep, I guess it was just the era, but like, why is there always a fat joke?

Why? I missed it. What was the fat joke in the episode? What was it? So when we're in the mall, Brooke looks to Peyton and I say, you can come in here and watch me try on bras and complain about how fat I am. Yeah. I,

And I'm like, you were like a size zero. Yeah. I'm like, I've never been skinnier than I was when I was 22. Let's relax. Oh, my God. This is like when I watch, I still love I Love Lucy and I watch I Dream of Jeannie sometimes with my daughter. But sometimes there's these jokes that just come out of, you're like, oh, my God, that's right. The world was just a different place back then. It was acceptable or stereotypical, I guess, for women to...

talk about how fat they are or whatever else it meant. I guess I thought that girls, I don't know. I don't know that I ever had that conversation with a girlfriend of mine. No, I was always way too proud. Yeah. Girls, you look great wherever you are, whoever you are, you look great. Try on the bras. Hell yeah. What I've had to realize is that

The the spaces we can get into with ourselves where we're being self-critical when I go like, I don't like this. I don't like that. I feel gross because of I'm like, but says who who told me this? Someone told me this. Yeah. Something or someone told me this. And what is the point? Well, yeah. I mean, maybe it's from unrealistic expectations in society, some of which come from.

Porn. Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. Girl. And here we are. Here we are. Joy, you handled this whole porn narrative with precision. Like, Haley is a time traveler. We've said it before. We're going to say it again. She's the only person that makes sense to me in this whole show, including my own character. Totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah.

I'm going to throw my hat in that ring. Absolutely. Oh, boy. I remember getting the script. I remember getting the script, and it was very different. Really? I fought hard for the material that we ended up with, actually. Good for you. Because I don't remember specifics, but I do remember getting the script, and it was all –

Everything that happened, which is what you were talking about while we were watching it, Hillary, about Haley getting sort of gaslit by everybody she was talking to, everyone telling her, it's not a big deal. Relax, relax, relax. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah. And by the end of it, there was some sort of watered down, like, I think actually at the end of the original script, it was something like,

What Peyton says to Haley in the bedroom, which was, if you've got his heart, you've got more than any of those other girls ever did. You've got his heart. And Haley was some way satisfied with that answer. And I had a real... I had many long battles about this episode and how I was going to play the performance. Because I...

it's so hard when you're on a TV show, cause it's not a movie where you get to know what it is. There's no time and you don't, things progress so quickly. So I would just remember that I, I changed a lot of those lines on the day, specifically the stuff in the apartment. And I remember going home and after I got the script, I made, I fought for the changes that, that they would allow for,

ahead of time. And then when I got there on the day, whatever else I wanted to change, I just did because I just wasn't- Joy, were you being difficult? I was being fucking difficult because I felt a responsibility to young women out there. Look, we're not talking about

Adults looking at porn. I have many opinions on that topic, but when we're talking about teenagers, which was our demographic, that's a demographic I felt a responsibility to. And that those are the people that I knew were watching the show and they were going to be impacted by what, what we portrayed. Yeah.

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I was really proud of Haley in this episode. Yeah. How she handled it. Well, this script really wanted to normalize it. That's what the script wanted to do. They wanted Peyton to normalize it and Nathan to normalize it and Lucas to normalize it. And Haley, with all of these friends, being like, babe, it's fine.

stands, stands firm. And that's important because she knew what her comfort level was. She knew what her boundaries were. If you're a single adult person and you're watching porn that is created by creators who are in control of their own content and are empowered, like great, fine. But if you're in a relationship where

And you are in a sexual relationship with someone and they feel like a boundary is being crossed by you consuming this content. Even if you're not in a sexual relationship. I mean, that's what the whole thing with Nathan and Haley was. If you're in a emotionally intimate relationship with someone, you have to check in with their boundaries. If they're like, fine, I don't care. You know, like no big deal. Great. Yeah. If it makes them uncomfortable, then it's cheating. Yeah.

Yes. Well, and something I find really interesting, you know, everyone who's listening at home, we jumped into some shares in between watching this episode and having this conversation with you all now. And we were sharing some articles we've read and some things that we've heard and some experiences we've had and things that our friends have been through. And, you know, something I find fascinating is an article from like 10 years ago now.

that said that 36% of, and they had just interviewed men and women for this. And yeah, it was a very heteronormative situation. And I get that, but I only have the stat I have is that 36% of women feel like discovering that their partner has a pornography habit is as betraying as discovering cheating.

Yeah.

That means that Haley's reaction or any of our reactions or any of your reactions, if you feel the same and you've been gaslit by someone saying a version of it's normal, this is how I'm being patient, whatever. And it works.

And it really doesn't feel normal to you. We just want you to know you're not alone and that that's okay. You are entitled to feel your feelings, whether your feelings are, I feel really empowered by this. This taught me about my body or I really don't like this. And I feel like it's unhealthy. Your feelings are your feelings and that's okay.

I think it's also important to acknowledge that pornography is an addiction for many people because it activates the pleasure centers of the brain and that it's

Then you, it becomes a compulsive practice because it influences what activities, what stimulation you need to get turned on. You need more and more of it. It's like any substance or anything that scientifically we have scientific evidence of the chemical reaction in your brain and your body when you're watching something like this. And especially for teenagers where your bodies are developing, your brain is developing, you're

um perspective on intimacy what a woman is who what she's worth what she's you know what her body is for or not for um you know what how you're supposed to um how you do feel rather than how you're supposed to feel you know how what what things there's just there are so many um

There are so many things happening inside of you as a young developing person. And to introduce porn as the major, the major player of what sex looks like at that age is so the major teacher. It's just really devastating, I think. And I'm so glad that we were able to not just normalize it in this episode, but I think we came to a conclusion that it wasn't okay. Yeah.

Well, and I didn't like, you know, full disclosure, I found someone stashed before when I was young. And it was like, what is this? And when I confronted them, they were like, well, I didn't use it. And they talked about it like it was a tool.

Right? And that's what Nathan does in this episode. He talks about it like it's a tool. And for me, you know, I knew girls who were, you know, dancers. I knew girls who I'd grown up with who got into, you know...

different lines of work than what I was doing. And I felt conflicted because what they were doing for work was vilified. And yet I was kissing people on TV and like creating emotions for viewers at home. And so I was like, oh, is what I'm doing a version of that? Is it like a PG version of that? Yeah, you've mentioned that before. Just sorting that out.

It's confusing.

understanding that in porn, those are real people. They're not a tool. Those are young women, young men who we don't know how they got into this line of work. If it was something that they chose for themselves, fantastic. If they like what they're doing, fantastic. There is a percentage of people who have been plied into that trade. And so a huge percentage.

And that was really frustrating for me as a young person to hear someone talk about them. Like, they're just tools, you know? I think, you know, there's been a big conversation nationally about OnlyFans. Yeah, that's right. And that's people, there's a lot of people on there creating their own content that they're in total control of, which is very, very different than what porn looked like in 2004 when we were doing this episode, you know? It was a very different industry. Yeah.

Well, and since, you know, porn became this multi-billion dollar annual, you know, top earning global industry, we've also had conversations about it. I mean, we've examined it. We've started to see groups of women beginning to make what they define as very feminist porn as the antithesis of the kind of porn that Haley caught Nathan watching. Oh.

Oh, because of the stuff Nathan's looking at is like grody. Yeah. And and the idea, you know, women said, well, if it's only going to be done through this male lens, that's really dangerous to us, then we have to make our own.

And so I guess I still, though, my question is, does it still create the same problem? You know, because you're still it's still the chemical reaction of you're activating the reward center of your brain and cheapening it continually until you don't need another person there. It's just there.

I feel like that there's no other road and there's no other end to that road, except that it's got to negatively impact your intimacy at some point. I don't know the answer. And I think it's really healthy for us to...

that and to also admit that it's conflicting. I mean, I know like asexual people that don't want to have sex with anybody and are like, I just want to watch my porn and be alone. And I great. Like, yeah, that's fine. But teen,

Teenagers are a different deal. Yeah. And there are people who heal from sexual trauma by rediscovering that they have intimate desire, whether that's viewing something or working with, you know, even all the way to working with sexologists, with doctors who help them do this work. Yeah. There are so many versions, but I think you hit on something really important, Joy, which is the notion of addiction. If porn becomes like a slot machine. The norm.

Something's wrong. If anything becomes the thing you can't get through your day without. And it still didn't explain why like punk and disorderly site was mixed in with all the porn, you know? Yeah. Well, it doesn't do any work. Yeah. He doesn't really have to own up to anything. I wonder if he will in the next episode. I don't think he does. I feel like maybe we touch on it once, but I, I think it ended sort of, um,

at a draw because that was the best that I could get in my fight with the boys that were writing this stuff. Which also, by the way, looking back now as an adult, wouldn't they value a young woman in her early 20s opinion about...

women are and how women feel about pornography. Why would they not welcome that? Why did I have to fight tooth and nail? I went home crying. I was like, it was constant arguments with them about everything. Joy, why do you have to be so difficult? Why can't you just do what you're being asked to do? It's in the script. Just show up and say your lines. That's always what they said to us.

That's the problem is they look at you and they go, we hired you to act. And it's like, no, you hired me to be a person. Yeah. I'm supposed to embody this whole person. Yeah. You hired me to find the truth on the page. You want me to make a real person? No. Otherwise, get an animation. Which one of their wives, you know, they always pull stuff from real life. I want to know which one of their wives found their stash in the

And they were like, we have to normalize this. Let's make Nathan, the likable one now, do it. You know? Right, right. He's come so far. We'll make the cute kid do it. But he did have pictures of Peyton. And that was something else, wasn't it? And they were recent. They were recent. They were recent. That's what I'm realizing. Because in my brain, I got to be honest, when we watched it, I was like, well, she used to be his girlfriend. But when you just said Punk and Disorderly was in the search history...

whoa that changes yeah big deal everything and and like Haley had just gone to Peyton to get advice like that's the double whammy is it's like oh this is the girl I'm confiding in and you're you're still looking at her camera which had been down for like a month she had only just turned it back on oh man wait why do we

Are we sure those weren't photos from before that he just saved? Yes, because mixed in with the shot. Because at the top of the episode, remember, we all cringed. Because Peyton was like, oh, I forgot that camera was on. I shouldn't change in front of that. Wah, wah. Yeah, yeah. But mixed in, you see a shot of Peyton wearing the shirt that she'd just worn within the shower shots. So they're all like, they're from the same day.

It's like a recent deal. It's super gross. Yeah, it's gross. And I wish that that had been addressed too. I mean, it was... Baby, you could only fight so many fights.

Yeah. I know. That's a pretty wild one, though, to let slide. Well, it was also... This is also why it was important to me that I didn't throw a fit when Haley saw those things, because I think that was the stereotype they were looking for, was the, how dare you? Like, I gave you my heart, and if that's not enough for you, then I'm not enough for you. Slam the door, you know? Because that's what they...

the people who are writing this stuff for their perspective of women overreacting, throwing a fit, hysterical. God. Difficult. Oh my God. That's the one, two punch. Guys, we're just having a stereotype party over here. Yeah.

Oh, my God. No, you played it. Honestly, Joy, I can't tell you enough. You played it so well. And the changes that you made were so appropriate. That is a verbatim conversation that could happen right now in 2021. Yeah. You know, like, it was important then, and it's important now. And you created a new normal for girls to have boundaries. Because that also...

I talk about my version of feminism, which is like, I'm not sleeping with anybody. Like, if you want to get this, good luck, you know? And that was always my version of feminism because at that time, there was a male initiative to create this new wave of like, I'm a free girl. It was the Girls Gone Wild. It was the Maxim stuff. It was the Victoria's Secret, like, angels parades. You know, like, there was this...

version of feminism that was being sold to us that was like, hey, if you want to be empowered, you should be loose like boys. Like you should screw around like boys and be super sexual like boys. That'll make you equal. And it always made me so uncomfortable. And so Haley's a time traveler now coming in with that 21 to 21 perspective of like, no, no, this is precious. Like what you're looking at right here is precious. It deserves more. Yeah.

earn it and i'm glad my daughter has a hayley in her life oh it's awesome i dated a guy once that um when we first started going out he used to have these he thought it was tasteful um photos of like it was like a model it's basically naked models on the wall wait he had them in his house in his house like in the kitchen

It's so gross. And I kept being like, you have to take these down. This is so, like, what are you, 18 years old? Take these down. Why are these? Ew. Anyway, it should have been a red flag, but it was fine. And so what I did was I ended up, he wouldn't take them down. He was really fighting for his, I don't know, whatever. For his autonomy. You are not. Sorry.

So I ordered off Amazon a giant poster of a guy in the ocean with his briefs on, but his enormous was obviously visible. Can't handle it. They can't handle it. I hung this giant poster right over the toilet in my house. I love you, Joy. So that every time he went to the bathroom, he had to sit there and stare at it. I love that. Oh, yes.

Eventually it worked. I love that so much. Yeah, that's genius. I mean, it's such an awkward conversation to have. But with your partner, it is an important conversation to have. Yeah, you got to talk about this stuff. Nathan, I don't love his reaction to this at all. But we know that he's still dealing with...

Maybe it's their way of showing that he's still got a little bit of Dan in him, you know? Because you do come at him very Deb. You're like, I'm going to be low-tones.

I'm going to escalate the situation, you know? But I will leave you immediately. But I will leave you and take all your money. You can keep the trophy. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that even though we, you know, we kind of landed on a fuzzy, you know, wish wash with Nathan on that, at least I feel strong about where Haley ended up and that she set her boundary and set a good example. And, you know, I'm proud of that. I had actually completely forgotten about this episode. Yeah.

And when I started, as soon as she was on the computer and saw that I went, Oh my God, it's the porn episode. I forgot about this. And how's this going to go? And I'm, I'm happy to say I'm really proud of our work. So yeah, you did a really good job. And if you're going to watch porn, watch porn generated by women that actually teach you had a pleasure, a woman. Cause all the shit that was out in 2004 was fake. Like girls don't scream like that guys. It's not real. Um,

All those like noises and like the huffing and puffing and stuff. I'm just like, what? Ew. No. No. And let's maybe quit with all the weird, creepy, violent porn too. Let's like, let's bring a little intimacy back to intimacy, please. Oh, girls. I love talking about everything with you. It's really, well, yeah, it's pretty great. So there was girl talk in the cafe with Deb getting her divorce papers and Karen. Oh, that's right. Oh, and Deb admitting she was sad.

That was beautiful. I get it. Like, he did that narcissist thing that Joy pointed out last episode where it was like, I made you want me back. I left the watch at the house. You know, like she brings it to him and he makes such a snide remark. Like maybe it's payment. Like she's a prostitute. I hated that.

So gross. For her to still be sad after that, that's what I hate. Like, that should have been nail in the coffin. Oh my god, it was after that! Yeah. Yeah.

It's just, that's the nature of it. You don't get involved with somebody like that and, and be, and stay with them for 20, almost 20 years, I guess, 18 years, 16 years. You don't do that without the push and pull being something that you're addicted to. And even though you may know it's good that you're separating from that, you still chemically you're, you're still attached to,

And emotionally, you know, you still there's a part of you that you're going to be sad not to have the things that did feel good. Yeah. Well, Keith is going through that in this episode. It was the most heartbreaking line of the show is when he says to Karen, you got what you wanted and Lucas got what he wanted. But what about me? You know, it sucks because he'll never be Lucas's dad. Yeah. Yeah.

It was so honest the way he delivered that line. Just it was so vulnerable and real and a valid point and not trying to be selfish and not trying to say, oh, did I get out of it? I didn't get anything out of this. You know, no, it was really like, but honestly, I matter too. And what about what I need? I've got to take care of myself, which maybe is the first time he's really stood up for himself in many, many, many years because he's always putting other people first. Yeah. Yeah.

It was really sad. I mean, it's always going to be rubbed in his face that Dan is Lucas's real dad. And you can see he's got this paternal thing in him. Like, Keith should have a whole, you know, little basketball team of his own. You know, I don't think basketball is his sport. What do we think Keith's sport was? Maybe the reason that he doesn't is because he's been in love with Karen all the time. And, you know, that actually prevented him.

Like how many chicks did Keith pass up so he could like stay at home and watch movies with Karen and Lucas? Yeah. What could have been? I'm happy for him that he's going. It's beautiful. It's nice that he's going to have his own space. And I think pretty, it's a, it's a major moment when Lucas says, I want to go with Keith. I need what he needs. They both need to get out of Dan Scott's shadow.

Yeah, they do. And what was the reasoning for that? Like, do you remember why Chad had to leave? Was he doing a movie or something? You know, it's funny to watch these episodes. No, dude, they're setting up the cliffhanger for the finale. He's probably going to play the playoff game and then leave town. The playoff! That's what we said when he's like, I gotta leave. We're like, but the sports! What about the playoffs? What about the playoffs? And Jake is leaving? They're going to lose the

lose the playoffs. They lose Jake. They lose Lucas. They lose the game. Oh my gosh. They have to lose the game because Dan's coaching, right? Yeah, they've got to. Well, listen, Jake is leaving because George Clooney swept him and, you know, gave an HBO show. Thanks a lot, Clooney. Could

Could have had a great little romance arc, and you ruined it. I also didn't like that Peyton's dad and Jake standing on the wharf kind of looked alike. Like, they had the same, like, floppy hair. Yeah. Like, they just kind of had the same broad shoulders, and it was like, oh, this looks like a daddy complex. This is uncomfortable. I liked it. It felt right. It felt like they were right for each other because, you know.

He mirrors in a way the only man who's been there for her in her life, her dad. And there's like a connection. Oh, I thought it was sweet. I know. I remember filming that day and like genuinely being upset. Like, well, what do you mean you're not coming back? Like, you're going to go. You looked really upset. Cape, I was upset.

I'm not ashamed to admit it. I was upset. And I think, oh, oh, that's what they were doing, too. He had a whole camera crew that came and followed him around because they wrote our show into the HBO show. What was it even called? Because it was like a... Aiden America. Greenlight. No, it was Project Greenlight. Project Greenlight. But wasn't it called? No, How to Make...

How to make it in America. It was a scripted show, but the Project Greenlight thing was about an actor trying to make it, and it was...

It was Greenberg, but it was also a little, like, heightened. Like a caricature. We're going to have to make him – yeah, he's going to have to come and explain himself. Yeah. But they filmed, and I was all nervous because we'd done our MTV True Life, like, documentary, and we were fine to be ourselves. But, like, this was HBO. This was, like, a very big deal. Yeah.

Fancy. They're like, okay, you two just talk and make it normal. And I'm like, but it's not normal. He's leaving us. You're ruining everything. You're ruining it. So sad. I hope we get to talk about it with him soon.

We're at the season finale next week. Can you believe we're at the end of season one? I can't. This has been so fun, girls. I'm like so excited that we get to dive back in. But I, guys, I'm understanding how people can binge the show because what took us a year to create, like, I feel like we watched it in like a blip. For sure. Yeah.

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Sarah asks, as much as I loved all the romantic relationships and the friendships between the girls, the most compelling relationship to me was the relationship between Lucas and Nathan. I found it so special. That's cool. What are your thoughts on the development of their brotherhood and friendship over the course of the series? Hmm. What a nice question. Yeah.

It is nice. Well, I agree. I mean, it's hard to say anything beyond what we've seen for me, because I, you know, I haven't seen it, but. But I love where we're getting up to this point anyway, at the end of season one, to have had this conflict and this pain, and then they'll start to get out of it, and then they fall back into their old patterns. And now I feel like we're really in the moment where these two boys begin to find a real friendship, especially this week.

with Lucas saying, I finally am seeing how it is for Nathan with Dan. There's, there's, there's recognition. And I think that's a really beautiful foundation for any, any friendship, especially one born out of conflict.

Yeah. The sibling relationship is so complex. I mean, I have a lot of siblings and what we're seeing in this season is appropriate. You're going to go through seasons where you really, really get along and you're going to go through seasons where you're like, oh my God, how did we grow up in the same house? You know? And so to see Lucas and Nathan do that, you know, episode to episode, um,

It keeps me on my toes because I don't know, you know, the whole porn thing could have been a trigger for Luke to be like, you are a bad guy. Yeah, I knew it. I think his carousel activity prohibited him from being too judgmental. Yeah, I mean, it's good to see...

Them be able to confide in each other because the only two people on the planet that know what it's like to be Dan Scott's kids are those two dudes. Yeah. Yep. So true. And that's going to continue to hold them together. That's going to be a thread that binds them no matter where they go or what they, what they go through in life. They're always going to have this mutual bond.

I mean, trauma bond. Trauma. I hate that. But they also have the, what they're gaining from this is the shared experience of growing past. Yeah. They need, they, it seems that they've actually really needed each other in order to heal from the trauma and pain that Dan has caused both of them. And, and so maybe that's, she's right. I think Sarah's right. The, the,

Magic in the show is the story of redemption that we've, you know, stories of redemption that we always see and look for here that they needed each other. And that's the key. They were the key, the two of them for each other. Totally. Yeah. It's beautiful.

I like in this episode that Nathan pretty much defends Karen. He's like, Lucas wants to be an optimist. Like, we could have teamed up against him. And Nathan's like, no, no, dude. No, bro. We would have hated each other. We would have been at war. Your mom was right. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, you get to be idealistic because you weren't here. I was here. Trust me, it would have been terrible. Your ass is always greener, bro.

Yeah. Cool, cool. All right. We got another question from Brianna. She says, you've talked a lot about the other teen dramas that were popular when you started filming One Tree Hill. What other teen dramas have you watched or been a fan of, old or new? Also, if you could be on any other teen drama, old or new, what would it be? That is a good question. I mean, Felicity. Duh. You were on Felicity. Oh, yeah. Well, for an episode. But Felicity was like, that was the show. We were all, I mean...

We were all watching that, right? Yeah. Felicity was a big deal. Also, My So-Called Life. Oh, My So-Called

You guys, my favorite show of all time ever, ever is Freaks and Geeks. Freaks and Geeks. I just, it is my favorite. It's the most honest depiction of this tender age that I've ever seen on TV. Like Linda Cardellini's character, I felt in my bones because I wanted to hang out with like the bad boys, but I was also like a straight A student and doing student government and

And the awkward stuff that she has to deal with in that show, I was just like, thank God. Thank God this exists somewhere. And I feel so cheated that there were only two seasons of it. I know. Oh, I know. It kills me. I still hold out hope that one day they'll do a reunion show. Wouldn't that be so sweet? We're still waiting for it. It really would. We're still waiting for it. Come on, Judd Apatow. I love it. Give us what we want. All right, let's spin the wheel. Let's spin it. Ta-da!

We still need a theme song. Which fan is going to write us a spin the wheel theme song? Yeah. Get on it. Oh, my gosh. Do it, Soph. Who's most likely to go skinny dipping? I mean, in real life? Joy! She's pointing to herself like, done it. Been there. Done it. I like it. But only in a place where there's no strangers and just friends.

And just friends. Yeah. I don't mind strangers. Oh, I do. I'm so sure I'm strangers. Get out of here. Oh, my God. I just, like, spit all over my camera. I literally did a zigzag.

Listen, I went skinny dipping for the first time senior year beach week and the boys found out and they came and they stole our clothes. And so I had to walk. No, that's so good. Yeah. No towels, no clothes. It's like two o'clock in the morning. It's so good. And I had to walk. That's horrifying. And just like hope that there's no one away. Did you, did you grab some leaves off a tree or something? What did you do? Do you know, do you know what I found? Um,

Somebody's kid had left like a Mickey Mouse t-shirt, like size 2T at the pool, right? And so I grabbed this t-shirt because it was like a community pool in like the area of the beach where we were staying. Oh my God. I grabbed this little kid and I figured I needed to like cover up my business with that. And then I just used an arm to cover my boobs. And I was like, everyone's seen butts. And so it was a very precarious walk. Oh, you didn't step into it? No, it was a 2T, Joy! Ah!

Joy would have crafted a whole outfit. She's like, this is a seam ripper. Just bite it with my teeth and make it a skirt. Oh my God. Yeah. I don't do a whole lot of skinny dipping now, but there's time, friends. There's time. There's always time. That'll be our next slumber party. I can't wait. We hope you guys join us next week. We've got the season finale. It's episode number 22, The Games That Play Us, season one finale.

I can't even believe it. This was the first time we thought we were going to get canceled. So we're going to the playoffs. Everybody work. We're going. Go Ravens. All right. You guys have a great week. Have a good one. Bye. Bye. We're listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at drama queens, OTH or email us at drama queens at I heart radio.com. See you next time. School drama, girl, drama,

Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

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For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.