Dare You To Move • EP108
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First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl drama about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our Comet Girl. Cheering for the right team. You could be the smart girl fashion but you're tough girl. You could sit with us girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. Drama, drama queens, drama queens.

Will, Will. Wow, that was a really strong episode. Because the episode, I mean, good God, it on the one hand, so ugly and over the top awful. And then it like,

luring's around to this really beautiful tender sweet yeah place and it's it's just kind of wild yeah makes you kind of forget well let's just get into it yeah let's get into it episode eight the search for something more aired originally on november 11th 2003

And oh, wasn't this a doozy? Hoping to have fun, Brooke and Peyton attend a college party. But the situation gets bad when a guy named Gabe drugs Peyton and everything goes to hell in a handbasket. Word. That wasn't part of the write-up, but it was just how I felt about the episode. Yeah, guys. Torture.

Okay, so we started talking about this the second the episode ended. And Soph was just in the midst of being like, oh, my God, what sweet, tender, lovely things. But then we remember, oh, there was this. Wait, it started. Heinous, heinous stuff at the beginning of the episode. So terrible. Yeah, I really wish there had been more. I wish we had kind of been able to take a whole episode or at least, you know, to work out that storyline and everything.

all the implications of that because it's just, it felt a little glossed over. Well, yeah. I mean, if you have never been assaulted and you're writing an episode about assault, it is really easy to be like, hey man, nothing happened. Your

you're fine. Wake up the next day and put on your backpack and go to school. Right. The reality of that, we all know, is baloney. And so, you know, if this show was made today, they would be definitely, like, reporting this. Because if he's going to roofie Peyton, he's going to roofie other people. Yeah. I mean, he had a pack. Yeah. It wasn't the first or last time. No. No, and then, like,

The realization, even if nothing happens, the realization that something could have gone really, really bad is enough to really, really affect you in a very negative way. It makes you so distrustful. And so, you know, even Peyton being affectionate with Lucas, I don't know that that's like a natural reaction, you know, for Peyton.

For me, I'm like, how about nobody touch me for like a good long time? Yeah. There is something that's so deeply traumatic about the realization as a young woman that you move through the world and by more people than you thought are looked at as prey rather than as a person. And we really did just gloss over that. The one thing that I do...

think they did well, essentially ignoring what happened. Like the one sort of peek in that I thought was really interesting was in the time that, you know, Brooke and Lucas are waiting for Peyton to wake up. They, they allowed for just a little smidge of room for the shame and the self blame that women feel for stuff like this. Yeah. And to see Brooke blame herself for,

Felt important because so many women do that. But what also bothers me is that there was no, it's like they wanted to get just a little close to it. They didn't want to get into the reality, which is what would the shame be that Peyton carried? What would the fear be? What would the post-traumatic stress look like? They didn't want to deal with any of that, but yeah,

I also think about how in 2003, this wasn't a conversation a lot of people were having. Oh, my God. No way. So it's like weirdly, it's sort of progressive that we talked about it. And also it feels like we dropped the ball. I remember senior year Beach Week. We all went down to like if you graduated in Virginia, you'd go to the beaches in North Carolina for senior year Beach Week. And so all our friends went to like Myrtle Beach.

Yeah.

And it was because we were like, well, bad things happen. Like we don't want anything bad to happen. And sure enough, a girl that we were friends with got roofied down in Myrtle Beach. And so we hear about it through like the trickle, you know, we didn't have cell phones, but you hear it, you know, the trickle of information. And my girlfriend went out that night and like hooked up with some people that we didn't know. And we stayed, we were looking for her all night. I was furious, furious, furious.

And so, yeah, for this just to kind of like get glossed over and it's like, well, on to the next party. You know, how many parties have we done on the show eight episodes in? And like there's there's like bad stuff at every party. Yeah. And the assumption that just because Peyton has walked into his room and, you know, is looking at records that she must suddenly be interested in hooking up with him. I remember when I was 18.

I remember when I was living in New York and I was 20 and hanging out with a group of friends, guys and girls mixed. And there was this guy who was older in the group, probably like 27, 28. And he was a big, tall guy. And we were walking down the street and I don't know what I said, something kind of flirty and was like just being I was just, you know, being like I do with my girlfriends. I mean, I was just being flirty.

oh my god my heart is pounding i'm like sweating even talking about this baby it's so funny how it's like and i just remember he he grabbed me he picked me up and shoved me against a wall and pressed his whole body up against me and he said you better be careful talking like that and none of them all everybody kind of just like stopped like

And then he like, he just held me for a minute up against the wall. And then he set me down and then just kind of like, it was, you know, like, oh, I taught her a lesson. Ha ha. Didn't say that, but that was the attitude. And, and I just kind of like, I remember just having to let, let the emotion just drop off of me because I couldn't process it because I,

All my friends were there and they all didn't know what to do. And it was all just so like, yeah, yeah, all right, all right, all right. And then move on, bring up the next topic of conversation and just keep walking. But that moment has stuck with me my whole life. That feeling of like, I'm not safe to just be myself because it might incite violence. Trigger somebody. It's really scary.

Oh, baby, I'm so sorry. I mean, I don't know. I don't know any person. I don't know any woman that hasn't had that moment. That's why I'm saying it because it's so common. We all have experienced things like that. And guys don't, so many men don't understand that that's...

They think, oh, we're being naive. It's like, no, we're not. We just don't think that somebody's going to look at us that way and think of us only in that way. That's where I think the complexity comes into is that it's not us being naive. It's not us, quote unquote, putting ourselves in a dangerous situation. What the fuck is a dangerous situation? Going to the grocery store? Like, anything. It's literally just us being in the world and you get... It's like getting...

hit it's like getting t-boned in a car you have no idea that someone coming at you is has run a red light because you are obeying the rules like yeah the that's what's frustrating about these kinds of dynamics is um

The lack of understanding that it's just what we're met with for existing. Well, and also the tone that this episode sets. So we're doing this interview. I had to do it today and it'll come out, you know, I don't know. It'll come out a little bit after this episode airs.

And they asked her, like, well, what things tonally did you have a problem with in 2003? And like, guys, there's a bunch, you know, as we watch. And so it was hard to, like, rattle it off in the moment. And this episode is, like, blaring because the girls start off going to shop in a lingerie store. And the result is that she's sexually assaulted.

Right. And nowhere in there is the conversation like, baby, you did not ask for this. You know, it is just assumed, well, you dressed in cheetah print like a slut at a party. You went to a college party. And this is what happens, you know. And so just have a drink. Sleep it off, girl. You know, don't sleep it off. Report it.

you know, like get checked up on that shame that makes you feel like this is going to plague me forever. And I'm not going to be believed. You will feel better having reported it, whether you're believed or not, you will know that you have done what you needed to do. Um,

Yeah, it's gross. I wish that we'd done a better job with that. We did good stuff with other things in this episode, but that was like a big... Strong episode overall, but I agree. Yeah, but you do, you see where the sort of glaring holes are. And this, I think, is part of what we've all talked about in the past, and I'm sure we will continue to, but, you know, the lack of upper level representation in the, you know, group of producers or writers of any women, right?

Yeah. To say, hey, you're missing something about our experience. You're using a stereotype or a theme rather than telling the truth. And I feel really grateful for...

As I have in other episodes so far with our show, but that we're able to talk about this stuff and kind of unpack what worked and what didn't. Because my hope is that people who watched the show who also went, that doesn't feel right, can have a little bit of a place to come to and, you know, a better answer or at least feel better.

in what was probably, you know, for some people, uncomfortable to watch because they had had really similar experiences. Well, there's trigger warnings on shows now, right? Do they go back and put trigger warnings on, like, old shows? I don't think so. I didn't see one when we started this episode. I guess not. I mean, because that... By the way, that was triggering for all of us to watch. Like, we all watched it through, like, our hands. Just kind of like...

Hated every minute of that. Yeah, it wasn't fun. So if that was triggering for you, you know, so many of you guys have trusted us with your narratives and with the things that have happened in your personal lives. And so, like, aside from the show, we hope girl to girl that

you feel like you have the resources and the support system to deal with it. Because it's lingering. It's not a let's go to school the next day situation. No, it should not feel like that. Yeah, you should have a space where you can unpack that. And I do think it's really worth, you know, highlighting what you said, Hill, about the importance of

reporting I think we've all in our own ways experienced the reality of not being listened to in the way we wanted to when we did report things that happened to us

But what I will say is what it enables you to do, maybe you'll have the best outcome and hopefully, you know, the Me Too movement and so much of the legal progress we're seeing means that people are better listened to than we were in the experiences each of us is thinking about right now that's making our chests feel tight. But the thing you can hold on to, even if you don't get the outcome you deserve, is when you have spoken your truth, when you have told people what happened,

Everybody knows. And they either know they showed up for you or they know they failed you. And I genuinely believe that that is part of the larger reckoning that's happening in society that's going to make systems and procedures change overall. People have to know how prevalent this stuff is.

And so, you know, take your time, do it in your own way, make sure you're protecting yourself and your energy and that you feel safe and that you feel held. But if any, if anybody who's with us today is questioning whether or not they should open up about something or seek recourse, I hope you feel empowered to do so because you deserve it. Yeah, I agree. 100%.

All right. So that's the icky stuff, guys. It's so icky. Shake it out. Yeah. Barf. Because there's really lovely stuff in here. Yeah. Well, one of them is Brooke really redeems herself in this episode. Like, not only a 180, it's like an 1180. You know what I mean? It is just pirouettes of difference from the last episode. Even the way we wake up together. And I'm like, oh, but you and Lucas were having a time. It's like...

I feel like they did that to Brooke a lot where they were like, we really need someone to do some inappropriate shit. Next episode, just pretend it didn't happen. And I was like, this is okay. I love that she shows up at Nathan's house in that corduroy blazer and buttoned up turtleneck. And the turtleneck. And she's like, I'm really trying to change my karma. Yes, yes. Oh, that was so sweet. I'm just, you know, trying to appease the gods. Hillary, I love that you were like, she's pagan. She's pagan, guys. She's always been witchy. We knew it. Ooh.

But I did, I loved that. The, also sort of the permission to, you know, own up to your failures and try to make it better. Yeah. Yeah.

I loved her sending you guys on a scavenger hunt. I forgot that I was the one that did that. That was a cute date. It was a cute date. What did they call it though? They called it a serial date? Is that a real term? Wouldn't it be a progressive date? No, I thought it was like a scavenger. I'm going to look it up. Is serial date a real thing? Because it sounds dangerous.

serial dating. Well, it immediately made me think of a serial killer, which is like not the point of the romantic lift in the episode. No, I'm getting like Excel charts, you know, like I'm not seeing anything. Is that an old timey word? It's old timey. That's what it is. Yeah, it must be. What do the kids call those dates now?

Kids don't date now. They just text each other. Yeah, they like Snapchat. That was so fun. I don't, you know, I remember, I remember filming some of that, the night walks and stuff. But again, it's hard. So much of this stuff blurs together for me because we've spent so many nights outside on the streets, you know, filming stuff. So yeah, but I loved watching it. I loved watching Nathan and Haley really,

find each other for the first time and Haley standing up for herself and being like, I'm not putting up with this shit. I was saying when we were watching it, I would not have had that confidence, especially when Tim and the basketball players come to the table and Nathan totally denies that they're on a date. And I would have...

I would have just been like, oh, yeah, no, it's fine, whatever. I would have imploded. Yeah, exactly. Just fallen inward with shame. Yeah, but you have to act cool on the surface. Then I would have gone home and cried and felt awful. But the fact that Haley was just like, yeah, no. You know what? For a girl that like, what do we think Haley's background is in dating? You know, like for a girl who is not practiced dating.

in dating for her to come out of the gate. So like, oh, no, no, no. These are the rules. To the captain of the basketball team, right? He's like the guy. I just dropped my pen. He's the guy. That's how much she meant it. She's like, he's throwing things. He's like the big superstar stud on campus. And she is like, feels awkward and feels like, you know, is he really going out with me? And this is crazy, but she's not willing to sacrifice her integrity. Yeah.

and what she believes about herself and her confidence for this guy. Oh, so, so baller. Just love her. Yeah, she's really fantastic this episode. When you're watching it, Joy, do you feel like you're watching yourself or do you feel like you're watching a different person? I don't feel like I'm watching myself. Really? I know that it's me. And sometimes there's a little electrical current that goes between me and the screen. And I'm like, oh, I feel...

I remember that I was feeling awkward or, you know, and I have a little muscle memory. But overall, I don't have a lot of actual memories of being behind the scenes. And there's a lot of stuff I watch. I'm like, I have no recollection of being in that location. I don't know, saying those words, whatever. All these lamps. I just wear all these lamps. I would have said something if I recognized the lamps. Yeah.

Yeah. No, it feels like somebody else, but I recognize the emotions of all the things I was feeling as a person back then. This is kind of a long-winded answer, sorry. But I did. I felt really insecure back then and really like awkward. So I think I feel it still in my body. So do you feel like you're watching yourself or like a different animal? No, I really don't. It feels so strange. What's really interesting is I can see...

In episodes seven and eight, I can see my terror and fear about I've never really done this before. I've gone and done an episode or a scene. I can see that relaxing. I don't feel like I'm pushing as hard to like be good at being Brooke. Yeah. But I also like I just it's so odd because I yeah, I remember like.

how strange and insecure I felt and also how weird it was to feel that way inside of playing the captain of the cheerleading squad who's this super overtly ballsy girl, you know? Friends, we all...

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feels like a breath of fresh air to me. Like to walk in the door, kick off my shoes, immediately flop onto the couch, put my feet up on the coffee table. It feels like I'm in a cozy little cave and it's all mine. Oh, it's the best. The couch for me is my happy place. And just recently, actually, we were in the market for a new couch.

Ordered one off Wayfair. We're very excited. It got delivered. You know, it's white glove. They bring it in. They set it up for you. We sat down on it and oh, it was not the couch we had hoped for. It could not have been easier to return the couch. We let them know. People showed up. They took it out. And then we found a different couch we liked and we love it. So they make it as easy as possible. I think it really all boils down to the fact that there's just no better feeling than loving your home.

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We had some really big kisses in this episode. I know. Like monumental game changing kisses. And that is the stuff when people are like, how do you weigh the good stuff and the bad stuff? I'm like, listen, we're putting the bad stuff out there because we deserve that.

But also it helps people to know for the future, you know, how to contact them. It's transparent and honest. It's healing. It's informative for others. It's great. But it's fun to watch these episodes where we get to celebrate the big good stuff and the Nathan and Haley just like epic kiss in your front yard. Can you tell us about that day? Do you remember?

Oh my God. It was so good. Yeah. Did you know that it was going to be a big deal that day when you were filming it? I knew it felt like a big deal within that storyline. I knew that was like a moment that we had kind of all been waiting for. I don't know.

No, I didn't. I mean, I certainly didn't know they were going to put that Switchfoot song with it, which was... A Walk to Remember had just come out too, I think, around that time. So there was that other, that Switchfoot song. I don't know if it was in that, if that same song was in A Walk to Remember or if it was a different one of their songs, but they were a huge band at the time. And so to get that song put...

at that moment, it was such a big deal. Such a big deal. Such a big deal. And I was kind of nervous.

And because I hadn't had a lot of onscreen kisses. What? I've seen the beautiful video that was cut together on Twitter. Joy, it's my favorite thing ever. That was just with him, though. I hadn't had a lot except other with Paul Anthony Stewart, my co-star on Guiding Light. You were so sexy in all of those make out scenes that you did with that other dude. And I remember watching it like, how old were we when that happened?

I was 17. But what's kind of great is like your kiss with Nathan is so different from Peyton's interaction with him, which is so fun to watch as a viewer. Like, oh, there he is. You know, you bring out the hymn.

It was a great way for him to redeem himself after that awful moment at the table. They had this really sweet night and the bad part of his character kicked in and he betrayed her and denied that they were on a date and she left. And I love that that was a really vulnerable move for him. It wasn't like...

oh, I'm just going to like, I'm a big, tough guy. He's like, he wasn't an ego move. Like, oh, I'll kiss her and then I'll win her over. It was like a genuine, what else could I possibly do? How can I let this girl know how much I like her? And he just went for it. Big, big deal. We all cheered. Oh, it was so fun. It was such a great feeling. I was like, I have such a crush on Nathan and Haley. It's just really fun to watch. Did you have a kiss in real life like that? You guys, did you ever have one that you knew was like,

Nailed it! Yeah. Especially at her dad age. Yeah. It's interesting, too. You know, we were talking about this as we were watching all this, like this hero moment for Nathan and Haley and this boy kind of having to find his integrity. And then we had this kind of aha moment where we were like, wait a minute. For years, we basically were told that, like, Brooke and Peyton were fighting over Lucas. Oh!

And you guys going back to watch it, the three of us are sitting here going, oh, I'm sorry. This boy is playing these two girls. Let's have a talk about integrity for a moment. But I didn't see it at the time, which is also such a statement about like how we tell stories to girls. No.

Oh my God. Like he is flirting and being sweet and cute and opening up his feelings with both of them. Yep. It's, I was like, to his credit, he is so good at being like the charming listener. Right. Yeah. And the one that tells you you're special, you know, those are dangerous boys. The ones that can say like, girl, you're so special. Yeah.

right? And then say to like 10 girls. I mean, look, I want to make room for the fact that he's a teenage boy too, this character. And he, you know, he's also going to be confused and who do I like? And I like this about this girl and this about that girl. And I don't know. That's reality too. It is complicated. But man, I just realized that again, the narrative always became like, well, these girls fighting over this boy. And it's like, actually this boy was like

He was unclear. Showing up for both of these women. Haney.

We needed to pick a lane, guys. Yeah. We needed to pick a lane. Listen, when I was in high school, so when I was in high school, senior year, my girlfriend, my best friend and I were dating these college boys two years older than us. Oh. And it's like the summer before senior year and we're feeling so cool. And the boys were also best friends. And they got together and decided they wanted to switch. Right.

So my boyfriend pulled her aside and her boyfriend was like, hey, can I talk to you during my lunch break at work? And she's like, go, go. You know, he's not calling me as often. Go talk to him. And I was like, yes, of course, I'll go be your ambassador. And this son of a bitch decided to be like, I think that we've made a mistake. And they tried to do a switcheroo. And so...

I totally buy teenage boys being just like dumb and messy. Here's the deal. Don't date the charming boy. Date mouth. Date mouth. Oh my God. The beginning establishment of Brooke and mouth friendship. So cute. And she is like,

I'm always so happy when we see Brooke being like an actual little baby. And when she sits down and like, they, they joke about his nickname and she's like, well, that was my, you know, my nickname at camp. And then she goes, cause I slept with my mouth open. It's like so innocent and sweet. She's just a little tadpole in that scene. Just like,

And seeing our guys, our basketball guys on the court, seeing Vaughn and Antoine and Cullen. That was so cool to see them. That return. It was important to return that element. It's like they got away from it. We had like three party episodes in a row. We did. Weird. That were all about the rich kids. And it was just like, okay, I get it. But the element that Vaughn, who played Fergie, and...

Cullen and Antoine brought to it, like, it's just so much richer when you have that duality, you know? Them being insulted that Lucas has blown them off. That was important. Those are big feelings. And I don't remember what happens in the later episodes, but I hope they really give him hell for that. Because he's not being a good friend. Yeah. Yeah.

I loved the reminder that that's where he comes from. That's where he belongs. Those are his people, you know, and they're the ones that are always there for him in spite of all the new things that are happening in his life. Like his cell phone. Cell phone. You got a cell phone? Remember when that was like a shocking thing for someone to have a cell phone? How old were you guys when you got your first cell phones?

There was like a car phone that my parents would put in the car, right? They had to like plug into the app like the the lighter. But I didn't get my own personal cell phone till I'd worked at MTV for like a year and a half, two years. I used to have to call into MTV on pay phones like in the subway to be like, do you guys need me to work this week?

Um, cause yeah, that was the only way I could get ahold of people. Oh, I love that. My parents were so paranoid. Once I got a driver's license, they were like, you are getting a cell phone and it will stay turned off in your purse. And you will turn it on if you are ever in a car accident for emergencies only. Like it was such a thing. And then, you know, cut to a year later, I'm like, like,

T9 texting people like one, two, H. Oh my God. Hitting the letters multiple times. Over and over and over again. When did you get here, Joy? I remember that. I was, I think I was 17, 16 or 17, probably 17 when I moved out and got my apartment. Did you had a cell phone and not just a landline?

Yeah, because I was, well, I was riding the bus into the city to work. Like, I had my own apartment. I was going to my senior year of high school. Oh, my God, Joy. You really were a tree hill kid. Yeah, I was a total adult. Like, yeah, packed up the house, got out.

Crazy. My story is so crazy. But yeah, I would take the bus into Manhattan because I had an apartment in Hackensack, New Jersey. And, you know, my mom got me a cell phone and it was one of those that looked like a, you know, like a double. It was like this thing. Right. Like the Zach Morris from Saved by the Bell phone. Yeah, actually. What it looked like was this thing, you know. Yeah.

Amazing. Giant recorder. Zach Morris. Yeah, no, listen, my son just watched Zoolander with their like talking on the little teeny tiny phones. And Gus was like, do you still have those, mom? Do you still have them in the attic? Oh, I got them. Oh.

I've got some boxes of old phones. Gus Morgan is here for it. How do we feel about this whole Karen leaving for Florence so more of it can have a baby situation? I love it so much.

They said Italy 47 times in this episode. Italy, Italy, Italy, Italy. In fact, I think Chad once said, don't go to the Italy because he said, don't not go to the Italy because blah, blah, blah. I think that's what I heard. It's funny. Who do you think played the Italian man on the voicemail? Because that was not an Italian person. That was not an Italian person. There was like a grip on the show. Yes, you know that was someone on the crew who they were like, do this, it'll be so funny. Wait, maybe it was Mike Leone. I don't know.

I was going to say, do you think it was Leon? I bet you it was. Because Mike, so for everyone listening, Mike Leon was our wonderful script supervisor. What a just lovely and delicious human. Yeah, man. The best heart. And he was always tasked with, you know, if there were phone calls or anything in a scene where the other person obviously wasn't there, he'd have to read everything.

the dialogue on the other end of the phone. He always had to do... He played more parts on One Tree Hill than any other human. That's right. He truly did. So I would love to know if that was his voice. Is it Italian a man that called about a cooking school? He's calling me back. Chef Boyardee's on the phone. He did spend a lot of time in Italy. You know, we obviously had to get Moira out for a bit because she was literally about to have a baby. And I got to be honest...

They did not do a good job of hiding her pregnancy belly at all. No, they didn't care. It was like they just didn't care. Like she's standing there in a two shot with Craig at the airport. And I'm like, that woman is nine months pregnant.

pregnant. You're not even bothering to shoot above her tummy. What are you doing, guys? As a woman, I'm okay with this because I have not been let go from jobs, but kind of scripted out because I've been pregnant. And it's like, ah, boys never... Like, my husband didn't get scripted out when I got pregnant. Of course not. You know? And so...

as a woman, I love that they were just like, she's pregnant. What do you want us to do? You know, we're going to tell a story here. Close your eyes. Everybody just, yeah, suspend your imagination for a minute. You'll be fine. Part of me, I don't know. I think like loving camera work so much. I'm just like, come on guys, you could have, you could have started a steady cam shot over again. But,

But I will say I love, to your point, I love the fact that they were like, oh no, we'll cater to her. We will allow her to have her version of it all in this moment. Because it is such a strange thing that so many women get kind of pushed aside or treated like they're an inconvenience when they're

having families and and you know they're if they have male partners they never do no and so part of me loved that and then there's a part of me that's like wait a second so we we wrote her out for a while so she could go like have her baby and her maternity leave i sure hope she was pay or play because she deserved to you know have that guarantee i don't know

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Well, so this is a full circle story. So, you know, by the time I had George, I was real tender about pregnancy because I'd had so many miscarriages. And so the show I was working on was Lethal Weapon.

And they were, you know, they were great. We got a body double for me when I was pregnant with her. But then it was like, you can't do stunts. And then traveling back and forth across the country probably isn't the best idea. So like, why don't you sit this one out, Burton? But Clayne Crawford, who was the lead on that show, was taking such good care of me. And when I worked with him,

We recognized on the very first day we worked together that we had very similar training in like how you behave on set, who you talk to, who you defend, who you take care of, crew friendly. And I'm looking at him. I'm like, what have you worked on? Who do we know that's the same? And he's like, you know, Jojo?

And I was like, you better believe. So JoJo was our hairdresser on One Tree Hill. I want to know how many young actors went through the JoJo school of set etiquette.

Because we realized that we had the same hairdresser in common and she had groomed us to, you know, be team players and to get down and dirty and move your own cast chair and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But as we got to talking, he's like, you know, I almost did your show once. I was like, shut up. Really? Who'd you almost play?

And he's like, there was this date rapist that was supposed to attack your character. And I'm like, what? He was supposed to play Gabe in this episode. They flew him out to Wilmington. What? Yes. They flew him out. He went through all the fittings. He did all the things. And there was something about either like,

like hair or a goatee or like a thing that he needed for another job that our show wanted him to be totally clean shaven. And I think he had long sideburns or something. They were so obsessed with hair. And they, like, he's sitting there in a hotel room and they're like, all right, well, you're done.

And they were like, you have to make this decision. Either you do what we say or you're done here. And Cleen's not the kind of guy that's like, okay. He was like, all right, you guys, I don't care. And he went on his merry way. And so they brought in Mike Irwin to play Gabe, who I think is a great choice because he does come off as like not predatory. He's like, he looks safe.

It's such a surprise when he turns. You don't expect it from him. And both of the boys who played like Peyton's predators on this show, um, Matt Barr and Mike, they were both like lovely behind the scenes. Like so, so, so sweet. And so it's hard when you see someone that's so lovable, you know, get vilified. Um,

Yeah. But I love that Klain like finally admitted, he's like, I was supposed to tackle you and I'm really glad I didn't because it seems like gross. Isn't that weird? Full circle. Yeah, man. Wow. But I do want to go back to the kiss between Keith and Karen in the airport. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Also, they did such a good job teasing us because when they start talking and she says, you know, you told me I had good instincts and you think they're going to talk about admitting they're in love with each other. And then he says, you go first. And she says, I'm going to Italy.

I mean, we all had our hands over our mouths like, no, no, no. Tell her. And so then when it comes back around at the airport, my God, the payoff is delicious. So good. I can't figure out if Karen's like fucking with him. Like, is she? Why? Why would you think that? Because he has said, I love you. Okay. And so she knows, like,

I mean, I guess I'm just trying to figure out, is she trying to get him to say it sober?

Like, is it like, like, cause she keeps leaning in, in these conversations, you know? And I'm like, girl, you know how he feels. What are you doing? Because, but think about it. Okay. Think about it. You're in a situation, the guy that you've loved for so long in so many ways, and now you are having romantic feelings for is pissed drunk and tells you that he loves you. When you wake up the next morning, are you, you're not going to bring, it's like, you're too...

We're above bringing it up. I'm not going to bring that up.

Oh. Hey, bro. Remember that time you told me I was awesome? Is that true? No. Yeah. No. So because if it was just drunk, if he meant it, if it was just because he was feeling it in the moment, like she deserves more than that. She deserves more than a drunk and I love you. And so I think she was coaxing and hoping that it would, you know, come back out, but not. Hmm.

She's just, she deserves better than having to bring it up herself. Do you think she's trying to get him to say, like, don't go to Italy? Like, stay here? Oh. Like, because that, I guess, is the conversation that really threw me, because she, I know what she's trying to tease out of him, but I don't know why then when he's like, you go first, she's like, okay, I'm going to talk to you about my ambitions. I think she was planning on talking to him about Italy the whole time. I do too. Let's be honest, as an ambitious woman...

What you want is to say, you told me something and it's what I want, but I'm not going to put my dream on hold for it. So I'm going to go do this thing I've been dreaming about doing. And are you going to be here waiting for me when I get back? Interesting. That's what she wants, right? Is for him...

to mean it long enough for her to go and have this thing for herself as an individual. I think that's why she kisses him right before she goes. Because she's like, I'm going to give you something to think about for the next six weeks. But you two made me laugh so hard when we watched it because you're like, she kisses him just to go stand in line. Like, three steps away.

He's like big epic kiss and then turns around and takes like four steps. And then it's like, well, I'll just be over here. The line is really long to get through security. The camera, you know, whatever they ended up doing, because they put the camera on a track. So you could tell that the way they pulled away from Craig's face, that they were trying to create the illusion of her walking away, looking over her shoulder at him or whatever. So, I mean, I think they tried to fix it, but.

I just don't understand why they didn't just remove the extras and just have her walk down a corridor. Why did no one fix and fix that? Like, we control that. Yeah, we control that. Why didn't anybody fix it? It was so weird. Yeah. But by the way, like, goodbyes at airports are that. It's just like, yeah, okay, I'm going to put all my shoes and my, like, doodads in a tub right now while you stand right there. Yeah. Okay, I'm still here. I'm still in line.

Okay. I'm still here. Say it 37 times. It's like running into somebody you know at the grocery store when you're at the beginning of the trip and then, you know, you pass them in every aisle. Ice cream, huh? Oh, love that mint chocolate chip. Sunday bacon, huh? There we go. Hey, what I liked in this episode that I started to clock in the last episode is that the

the interactions between the kids are starting to take on like a different weight because the adults are watching. So like the whole thing with Nathan and Haley outside of the cafe, even though we don't see them in that scene, it feels like more.

Because Karen and Keith just gave Haley the, like, oh, wink, wink inside. Like, who you mean out there? You know? Like, it just feels like the adults are having fun watching the kids navigate. But it also...

That pressure. I have felt that in real life of like, oh, my God, you know, I have to explain this to my parents when I get home. It gives what you're doing a certain air of accountability. Because you're going to get asked about it later. Yeah, I like that.

And it's just so charming to see them be like, oh, you guys, oh, you're going on a date? Cute. Oh, great. With Dan's son. Awesome. I couldn't have picked better for you. Great. This was also a great episode for music, not just the Switchfoot song, but the song at the end. Because it was the first time, at least I remember, as we've been watching this, really seeing music worked into the edit, that it was very specifically, you know, the slow-mo that they did with

Peyton and Brooke at the end and Lucas and the big kiss with Nathan and Haley. It felt very like it was the beginning of really understanding our tone as a show being so centered around the emotion that is evoked by music. Yes. I feel like we discovered it in this episode. Yeah. Music becomes emotional.

A character in this episode. That's right. And remains one through the rest of the show. It's weird to me how music became like a much bigger, because it wasn't in, you know, the pilot. Like, you know, we had cool songs. But-

We all got really involved with MTV, right? And Laguna Beach started airing. And you kind of started to get this really strong music influence in our genre in particular. And so, you know, Peyton pivoted entirely from being an artist to...

Yeah.

Oh, gosh. And being in the CD store, too. Remember? And that scene standing in the CD store. Like, I miss Sam Goody and Tower Records. Tower Records. Oh. Did you guys have Waxy Maxi in your town? No. Oh, that was our, yeah, that was our Virginia thing. We had a Waxy Maxi. Oh, yeah.

That was dope. Yeah, I remember like flirting with dudes over the racks of CDs and being like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. My biggest bully in high school who I had such a crush on, like he was so mean to me and I loved him. He owns a record store back home. And my girlfriends are like, you can't go. And I'm like, but what if he's nice to me this time? And they're like, sorry.

I will never be nice to you. Ever, ever, ever. Oh my God. I love that so much. No, but it makes total sense that he owns a record store. Yeah, of course. You're like, that's what did it. Oh, he was so brutal. There was the coolest record shop ever.

in Chicago that I used to go into all the time called Shuga. Shuga Records. And the guy who owns it is so lovely. And him and his wife have rescue dogs. And we became like dog friends. Yeah. And then he would save great presses of records that would come in for me. Ugh. Those are good friends to have. Those are good friends to have, man. All right. So...

We need to address the Deb of it all before we get into our superlatives, ladies. Oh, yeah. Deb makes this very grand offer to Karen, which we all were like, wow, trying to sort out while we were watching it. You know, I think, you know, we went from being roofied to this like big, huge, grandiose, you know, generous thing. So.

Yeah, we ran the gamut this episode. I don't know. How do you feel about that? Again, I think it's a bit of a device, like in the way that Brooke had to be a monster in episode seven to drive the drama. I think, you know, Moira is leaving because she's having a baby. So Karen has to go to Italy. But the cafe is a very central place for us as a location. And they're like, well, this would be kind of cool if Deb, you know, did her her karmic retribution. Oh, my God, it's actually hitting me in this moment. Brooke's whole thing.

thing is about fixing her karma. Ooh. And Deb, interestingly, is like paying back kind of a carnet debt with Karen and talks about how she didn't know about Karen then, but she knows now.

And Karen had been cheated from so much in life. She deserved this. Yeah. What a beautiful, graceful thing to do. I mean, and that is so consistent with who we've come to know and love about Deb or come to know her as and love about her, that she takes the high road and that she leads by example and is willing to sacrifice her time and

And in order to bridge a gap that has been a huge chasm in her family and in her community as well. It's a really incredible, self-sacrificial, gracious thing to do. I'm so impressed by her in this. Same. And what's hitting me now is last episode, she had the ultimate clap back with all the, you know, rude basketball moms. Yeah.

By putting all the Karen's goods out at the party and telling them that they all came from Karen's cafe and sort of snapping back at that judgment. And now she's just going to go and do this thing. It really is lovely the way they're having this unlikely friendship.

And the foreshadowing, which I know wasn't planned then, but it gave me so... It put me so squarely in my feelings, Joy, thinking about you and I ending this series as two women standing in that same window in that cafe, having built a life together. Yeah. And...

Like in that moment, looking at Karen and Deb, like I was like, oh my God, Brooke and Haley do that. Like these unlikely friends. It's, it's so, God, we got some really good stuff out of it all. Yeah. It's really special. Is there anything in the actual Karen's cafe space right now? Do we know? I don't know. Somebody's gonna find out, Brooke.

Hey, sleuthy friends. Can you tell us what's going on in our friend group? Yeah, what's there? Let us know. What's there? We need to know. Let's spin the wheel, girls. Come on. Spin it. Do it. Most likely to. Oh, there's some good ones popping up. Hold on. So a couple weeks ago, it was who is most likely to get lost in the woods. Yeah. And this one is who's most likely to get lost in their own neighborhood. Yeah.

I mean, characters. Let's think about character. Yes. I mean, yeah. Absolutely. That's sweet, girl. We need to have Bevan on because even though she's not like talking in the episodes yet, Bevan was there for all like every party ever. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Bevan's there. Yeah, Bevan's character, I would say, get lost in the woods. She's pretty, she's sharp. Yeah, character. Her character. Yeah. Well, but it's hard because they share a name. Yeah. So yes, Bevan the character, not Bevan the person. Who of our cast would get lost in their own neighborhood? Why do I want to say James?

Yeah. Bad sense of direction. No, I mean, he lived in that neighborhood where like all the houses look the same. I could never make it to James's house. Guys, it might be me. It might be me. Listen, there was a night when Jeff and I first started dating where he was all jazzed to get off work early.

and go to this restaurant. And I was like, I know where it is. I know where it is. We drove for an hour and a half. And I'm like, I'm like, it's on Wyoming street. It's on Wyoming. And he got so, it was like the first time he had to not like get frustrated with me. It was our first like lovers. I'm not frustrated. Um, yeah, yeah. And he, he, to this day still teases me. Anytime we get lost, he's like, is it on Wyoming? Yeah.

Wait, I love this detail about you. Yeah, I mean, this is why they made iPhones, right? I mean, can anybody read a map anymore? My Thomas guide is still somewhere. Oh, yeah, I've got that in a box. Yeah. Not that that's a shock to anyone. I'm too busy. A keepsake in a bin? You won't need a map to find us next week. We'll be right here. That was a good one, Joy. Oh, my God. Joy, you just came in with such a dad joke. Yeah.

That was fabulous. Look, you can always count on me for dad jokes. Oh my God. We love you all. I love you girls. I love you. Have a safe week. Love you so. We'll see you back for episode nine next week with arms outstretched. I wonder what happens in that one. Guess we'll find out. That's not that Creed song, is it? No, that's... With arms wide open. Oh my God.

All right. We'll see y'all next week. Bye-bye for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at DramaQueensOTH. Or email us at DramaQueens at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're school drama girl drama about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. DramaQueens. DramaQueens. Give us more.

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For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪