Dan the Man • EP114
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It's pajama week on Drama Queens! Woo! We are together!

I hope you were able to join us for our live event, which was super flirty. Oh, so fun. Yeah. But now that we've gotten to work in pajamas, I don't know why we would ever work in normal clothes again. Yeah, I feel like this needs to become our new staple. Yeah. We loved it, and we decided that since we're together for the weekend, we might as well just be in pajamas and drink champagne the whole time. Glamour! Cheers! Well...

Today, we've been... Sophia, you do it because you said that. Go ahead. She does. Guys, normally when we have our favorite friends and guests come on the show, you know, we get on here, the three of us, we talk about the episode, we recap, and then we welcome them in. But we have been talking about today's guest. I think...

Every single time we've gotten together since we started this. And we really just want to get him in the room. So we'll talk about the episode with him. Please welcome our favorite bad dad, Paul Johansson as Dan Scott. Come on, PJ. Where you at? Bad dad. Look how handsome he is.

Paul, you are so swarthy. Look at this bone structure. I love you. Where's my drink? Where is it? A toast to Paul Johansson, who was our favorite

Nine connoisseur on the set of One Tree Hill. You took care of all of us. You made sure we got home safely. Best advice giver. I mean, talk about advice giver. Oh, my gosh. We love you so much. Thank you. You were always our champion. You were like the cool big brother we all wished we'd had. You're the reason that any of us knows how to drink wine. And honestly, you... Oh, I don't want to...

Go for it. Do it. Do it. We've had an emotional morning. We've had a really emotional morning. Paul, you were really like, you were our North Star. You were the man who kept us safe. I agree. So hi, and we love you. Thank you. Oh, wow. We've been crying all day. It's not bad in real life, guys. He's really lovely. He's really the best. We love you so much, Paul. You always looked out for us. It's very sweet and very...

It's important for me to hear that from you. Thank you for saying that, all of you. It means a lot. I don't know. I mean, I just want to, well, first off, I want to say that, you know, I know that Willie was really close to, I know especially you helped. And I know that I've been a few times at Chris Noth's house and a few places. And what an amazing soul of a man. Just a beautiful person.

And so I feel your loss and I want to tell you that. Well, it feels really nice to be with,

our OTH family, you know, like our white collar family is so awesome and so strong. And it's so weird to think that casting directors have so much control over the friendships and the families that we form, but it's true. And, you know, to run into the arms of the girls here today and to, you know, talk with you, it feels good to be surrounded by our chosen family. And, you know, because the casting really kind of,

nailed it on this one yeah yeah like for all of us what a plan well we want to talk about your career because you when did you start acting you were a young whippersnapper like we were when you what was it soap i mean take us through how you got started well oh my gosh it is it's a bizarre story but it's those are the best ad nauseum um

I was in love with a girl.

That does it. In Canada. And I was in college and I thought I was going to be playing in the NBA and I was playing on the Canadian national team, traveling the world and having these beautiful experiences with all these basketball players and thought I was going to go to the Olympics and I got cut. The reason I got cut, and I will say this, I really believe this in my heart, was my girlfriend and I broke up a week before the Olympic training period started. When I got there, my

- This is like a storyline from the show. - Yeah, it was. I'm really Nathan. And the coach said, "I just, I can't take you with us." And during that time I was in these classes in Vancouver, these theater sports. Remember the theater sports where we would go and do improv comedy? - Oh yeah, like improv stuff. - Back in the day, right?

And there was a guy in there named Jason Priestley. And there's a couple other actors. Just that guy. Just that guy. And we were all nobodies and we'd auditioned for some crazy Hollywood thing. And two days after I got back to Vancouver, after I was cut from the Olympic team, I thought my life was over and I lost my girlfriend. My life was over. And it was like, and this guy called me from Hollywood and said, Hey,

I'd like you to fly you to LA and I want to see if you and I, um, you know, can maybe, uh, uh, um, have, we'll see if you're, if you're, if what I think you could be in this industry. And, um, I saw a tape you did in Vancouver and, uh, and, and I, so I called this guy and I said, who is this guy that just called me? And should I be worried? And what's this about? He goes, yeah, I'm producing. You should go, you should go to Hollywood. Cause it's before you could Google people. I mean, you didn't know if it was like an escort service, Paul.

I mean, you were very tall and handsome and you still are. Oh my God. Well, I was a different person then. And I had no interest in acting. I was just doing it for fun and I was just running around. But this guy flew me to Hollywood in 1980. It was so long ago that it doesn't have a number. That's a long time. He got there and he picked me up in a limousine and took me to one of his theaters. No way. Is it a limo?

He sent a limo. He had three, he owned three or four little 99 seat equity waiver theaters that he owned. And all of his actors in his group had to do two plays a year. We all, and so he introduced me to some actors. I met Gregory Harrison. I met some other guys. Oh, wow. Greg Johnson.

Austin's dad, right? Or your dad. My dad. He's very handsome. He's also very tall and handsome. And it was at this theater. He was doing a play called Child's Play at the West Coast Playhouse. And anyway, so Frank just basically said, look, he goes, after a couple of days, I like you. He put me up at the Beverly Joy. We had dinner there the other night. The Beverly. Oh, yeah. The Garland. That's right.

when I cut the Beverly Garland. I love the Beverly Garland. She's such a glamorous lady. Oh, yes. And he said, I'm going to put you in acting classes, movement classes, definitely voice classes. It's a hatred Canadian accent.

Sorry, but it's got to go. Sorry. And he literally just believed in me and Jason too. And so he paid for an apartment for me and Jason. He gave us a car to drive. No strings attached.

No strings attached. No, no, no. Back then it was about building talent. It was about getting it like. Can you imagine? What? I've never heard of such a thing. They wanted you trained. They wanted you to do theater. I did a repertory Shakespeare company.

He wanted you to be trained. And then he would let you audition. But not after a year or two of real training. Like you couldn't even audition. Wow. You just don't focus on making money. Focus on getting good. Yeah. And he kind of, he groomed a lot of actors and actresses that way. And he built a really nice stable. He had a good living. Unfortunately, four years later on the set of my stepmothers to space alien, the Kim Basinger movie, he had an accident and died. Oh no.

I didn't get to sort of show him that I became Dan Scott. Paul, he'd be so proud of you. I mean, you really are a Shakespearean bad guy with all those layers of I'm good, I'm bad. Yeah, you can do everything. I mean, that's why your career expanded so many various genres and just...

I feel like you could go into any time period. You can play a good guy. You can play a bad guy. You're so talented. And I think it's largely because you're such a curious person and the way that your outlook is on the world. You're constantly asking questions and learning about people. I've never been in a taxi with you where you didn't want to talk to the driver and ask them about their life and where they're from. No.

the janitor who's cleaning up the, you know, Coke that somebody spilled in the corner. You want to talk to that guy. Paul always does invite the waiter to sit at the table and have a drink when the shift ends. Cause you know, we're going to shut the place down. Like being in Paris with Paul. And he's just like, we'll save one for you here. Let's go ahead and like order it right now. You sit down when you're done. I'm going to need a job and I want to make sure they can put it. No,

I mean, Paul, you were the reason we became such good friends with Hank at Deluxe. He became like our local, you know, our local uncle in town who gave us all the info on Wilmington. And I was thinking about you when I moved to Chicago. There's a restaurant there that before it was trendy, had a thing where you could buy a six pack for the kitchen on the menu. That's amazing. And I was like, do these people know Paul Johanson? What's going on here? I just...

Every time I see someone be so generous with people that way, I always think of you.

Well, you painted a very sweet picture of me. It's going to be hard to live up to that. It's accurate. But you can't see yourself, but we see you very well. It's true. And all that experience, you know, has given you such a breadth and an ability to tap into the vast amount of human experience, which you really brought to Dan. And one of the great things about Dan was that, I mean, arguably he was the most, you

with the largest trajectory on the show of change. And I mean, I think all the layers that you brought to him, it could have just been one note, but instead he became an iconic character that ended up having this great story of redemption by the end. And that took nine seasons to get there. But,

But let's start at the beginning because we don't have... Yeah, what was your teen drama experience? Because you worked on shows like ours in the 90s. Well, I think the closest resemblance was 90210, which was in its day...

I mean, it's scandalous. Yes. Yeah. It built the TV studio for Fox. It really did. I mean, it was it was the the link that, you know, that really started it all off for them. But, you know, I remember going places with Jason and when Jason hosted Saturday Night Live and when Luke was hosting shows and they were and the amount of fans that would show up.

you know, pre, you know, social media, you know, it was about being there and experience it. And they didn't have their phones all up. They were like engaging. And it was really, really kind of phenomenal to watch. Can you guys imagine being in a club and seeing Paul, Jason Priestley, and Luke Perry all walk in? Like I,

Even if they weren't famous, like that many good looking men in one space. Yeah. Like you had a great time, right? Falling over. Best time ever. I mean, you know, honestly, I wish I could, if I could do one thing with One Tree Hill, I wish I could go back and have more awareness of myself as like my, because, you know, we,

We had so little off time. We worked so hard on that show. We were there so much. I wish that I would have spent more time kind of

productive in my off time. You know, I was trying to have a life with you guys and I was 15 years older than you guys. I was trying to have a life, trying to find my place in a city, you know, where I'm, you know, like you guys, I, you know, I often don't feel like I have a place. And so I try to create one. And so the people that became my friends were you guys, even though we were so much different,

different in age, it was kind of remarkable to watch you guys go through so many things I'd seen Jason go through or Luke or Shannon or any of those guys had gone through. And it was amazing to see how different you guys handled it than they did. They were in Hollywood growing up and you were in Wilmington. We probably dodged a bullet.

I think so, too. I mean, you guys are, you know, salt of the earth kind of people and so are they. And I think but I think the mechanics of the industry are hard, you know, and they take a lot out of you. So maybe that distance was in a weird way what made it kind of a special experience for me, you know. Friends, we all.

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Can you tell us how you got the part? Like, how did- Oh, yeah. What was the thing? How'd it go? The part I think Brian Robbins gave it to me. I played basketball with Brian and James Lafferty in this entertainment league, the basketball league. You guys knew each other before? I played in a few games. The E-League. And he hated me. He was like, I was cocky and I had just finished playing. So I was like- Wait, who? James? James?

Well, everybody kind of hates it. Okay. I mean, George Clooney threw the ball at my head. I mean, people didn't know.

That's the name of your memoir, Paul. George Clooney threw the ball at my head. Yeah. I actually like George quite a bit. I just remember that I was the cocky guy that was actually a real basketball player. It was my dream to be in the NBA. I had some shots at it. I had some pro shots to play. And this guy called me from Hollywood at the right time and pulled me away from that. Yeah.

so I was really, really, I was really good. You know, I haven't played basketball in 15 years. So I mean, I'm a dad now. It's a completely different game. You play, it's getting to school on time morning. Yeah. You know, which is a chore as Joy will probably know. It's a,

But no, but I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think that basketball was my road in and playing with James and playing with Brian Robbins to get back to the question. I think Brian saw that I was super competitive. And inside of me is that sort of like that, that Michael Jordan thing where nobody likes him, but they all want him on their team. Yeah. Winner. And that's how I was as an athlete.

And it doesn't translate well to life. It doesn't translate well to sports.

Because when you're acting, you know, it's about being open to receive and then being brave enough to give that vulnerable part of yourself that you keep secret to yourself when you're alone in your house and you're crying over shit that nobody will understand. And that going, okay, here's what I got. You know, are you going to take it? And if they don't take it, you know, you're not going to have a good scene. You know, you're not going to have a good experience. But if they take it, it's on. Let's go there. Yeah. And that's for me, that's where I get.

juiced when I'm acting bring it you know you do direct the way a coach coaches team sports where it's like you need to show up for your teammates like I've heard you have that conversation before and like yelling from the sidelines god I never thought about it until just now but yeah you're you basketball coached us through all the seasons of one tree yeah

Get your head in the game. But what an amazing thing, too, because for you...

in this sort of parallel path to be a coach, but also to have had the beginning you had that you told us about, like, don't worry about the work, just get good. You're so good. You're such a good actor. You're such a good storyteller. So to have like one of the best actors and storytellers and scene partners you've ever worked with also be a team sport guy. Like no wonder

I wonder every time you were directing us, we were like, this is the best episode of the year. Yeah, the best. It was always such a relief when we knew you were directing, wasn't it? Well, the scene that stands out for me, the one scene from One Tree Hill I have on my reel is the scene that you directed of when Brooke and Peyton get into the physical altercation in... On the front lawn. On the front lawn. You directed that scene. That's the time that Sophia's skull got cracked. Yeah.

We accidentally headbutted, but the seat turned out great. That's the basketball coach in him. He's like, walk it off. Walk it off. It's good for me. Good. You guys got it? He was like, guys, that looked really real. We were both on the floor going, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow. Face. Face.

But that scene to me is my favorite scene of probably the whole series because we were doing real work and we were tapping into all the insecurities we had, all of the things that were real. You were encouraging us to use the real things to tell a powerful story for our audience. Yeah.

You guys brought it because one is the most important thing is in anything, sports or acting or anything, you were prepared. You didn't show up going, what are we doing today? To me, that drives me nuts. I go, what do you mean, what are we doing today? Like you have this fantastic talent.

like blueprint, it's called a script. What you're doing today, if you read it, it's really informative. And you guys showed up and you knew your lines, which is for me, it's like, that's just plain elbow grease and hard work. And there's no, there's an acting, I don't care who you are. Cause I mean, look again, anecdotally, another story, Joy's heard a thousand times. I love them. Tell them all. Yeah.

I was really close to what I think is one of the greatest improv actors of all time, Robert Downey Jr. Yeah. A little bit. We spent a lot of time studying, preparing him for Chaplin. He was very, very dear. And we had a lot of time together, you know, in the world of preparing for screen tests, auditions, movies. And he learned everybody's lines and his in the whole. He learned backwards and then he never said them.

He knew that he developed the character so well that when he got to the set, the character took over. So not that I think we needed to go that far in television. We don't have that kind of luxury to take 55 takes or a hundred takes. We take three or four and we take the best one, but to get the best three or four, you've got to show up ready to go to work, man. No,

No joke, you know, and it's not, it's not for the faint of heart because you put your heart out there every day. It's just hard work. And people who want to get the first thing I say is it's hard. Are you ready? Yeah. So that's the thing I'm very curious about because that, well, first just asterisk, I'm going to say super proud of us for being good students. Love that. Thanks teacher. Thank you. And, uh,

but my, my, my real, you know, sort of emotional question under the joke is I'm fascinated about that beginning because you're talking about the entertainment league and this basketball, this, this real, um, young competitive athlete in you who, as you speak about that, that version of you and your life at a whole, I'm like, well, you're clearly deeply emotionally untouched at this moment and you have been for a long time, but you

But, you know, in the beginning, you're saying that it was sort of that could be viewed as a negative, a hyper competitive streak in you that identified to our producer. That guy would be really good for Dan Scott. And then you're talking about how you have to show up and literally put your heart on the line, even when you're playing a bad guy, even when you're, you know, hand raised, even when you're playing a confident girl. You really have to be willing to kind of crack your chest open and see what comes out.

And so how did you, in the beginning of our show, figure out how to play this guy? Because Joy said it. Dan could have been so one note. Slightly whiplash. Yeah, you could have just been like a stereotypical bad guy. And you did a thing that...

That really got us and it gets us every week. Every week we watch the show and we're like, God damn it, he's good. How did you carry your whole heart and your capacity for vulnerability and you're like hyper competitive Olympic guy? How does that fit in one box? How do you do that? It's a sensational question. And I'm really grateful that you thought to ask me that because it's so important to me

Because of our fans who made this podcast like the number one podcast because they're so loyal and they love, you know, they love you guys and they love the show and they deserve these kinds of questions. So thank you for that question. That's the right way to honor the work that we've done is to ask those questions. You know what I mean? So I'd love to humbly try to explain it in the way that I've always tried to explain this to people when I get in that conversation.

It's just, you know, Dan was a narcissist. But the truth about narcissists is that they're broken. They're not. They play out. Their biggest fear is to be called out or to be humiliated. To be humiliated or shamed is like execution for them.

So for Dan, he was so, so proud and so, so put together an external level on this incredibly aesthetic value that he puts out there for the world to see. But he is broken on the inside. I remember listening to your podcast to sort of prepare for this conversation. Who are we talking about, Paul? What were we saying? And things fired in my head when you're talking about me. You're talking about Gerald McCraney.

And Gerald McRae, those scenes with him, although I was really, really sick, I prepared to go into that to show why I was broken in that episode. But I didn't get the opportunity because... Paul, you were perfect in that episode. You looked like a broken kid. And I know you were sweating because you were sick, but you used it. That moment when Deb... What was going on? Deb was saying something to you and you looked at her like...

dude, stop it. Dad's looking. You were instantly a teenager again. A 14 year old boy. I don't remember what the conversation was, but I remember we all commented on that scene. We did.

Exactly. It's usually from parents. Narcissism comes from narcissistic parents. And what they do is they do all the loathing and the self-hatred, all that stuff. So in my mind, the way that I wanted to play down, the way they wanted to find that value. And by the way, you can't have this conversation without giving credit to the writing staff because they are...

the ones that are giving the great opportunities for you to find these moments. So I really always throw that out to the right side because they did discover. They understood Dan in a way that seemed there was an ease there, you know, and maybe that's because Dan was an adult and like having to remember what it's like to be a teenager is hard sometimes. But clearly someone understood Dan Scott on like a visceral level. I'm not touching that.

We'll let that one float. You go back to you, Paul. Go back to you. I said what I said.

- Oh my God. - New ones, that's what makes characters interesting. New ones. And I will say just to finish the point that I feel about that is that no truly powerful and interesting sort of, I wouldn't call him a villain, Dan wasn't a villain. Dan's biggest secret, which I will reveal, is that he deeply loved both Lucas and Nathan.

deeply, like so much that he pretended not to. My goal in every scene was to love them so much, but I have to be strong and don't show them. That's what the, that's the conflict in me in all those scenes. When did you decide that?

really early in season one when I wasn't sure how to play some scenes and how do I find depth? How do I find depth? How do I find a deeper value to this guy? I don't just want to play. When I went to the writers and I said, guys, I don't know. I mean, I feel like, you know, I should have, I would rather have been Keith. And they go, no, you don't want to be Keith. I'm like, yes. Keith's going to die. But the truth is, is they said, just trust us, trust us. But I wanted to be more than just a bad guy. And so the way that I thought would be interesting was,

was to kind of go to that other value and go, what is a bad guy really seen as? The truth is they're really freedom fighters in other countries. We call terrorists and all these other ideas. It's the opposite. So how do I play the opposite value and still be the bad guy? So play, I play deep devotion. Everything I did was for, was for Nathan's future. I fought for his future. He doesn't know as good as I know. So I'll take care of it for him. And then in that way, I cross over into those boundaries. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's relatable for a lot of parents who, you know, we... A lot of parents have the...

The light switch goes on, you know where to set the boundary between yourself and your child. And then there are parents that don't know where that boundary line is. And they overstep consistently because of this broken belief that they know better and they don't know how to just allow their child to have an independence. And, you know, you really laid that out quite well. It's actually really interesting because I'm realizing that the reason...

For me, that when we all watch the show and we have these deep conversations while we're watching episodes, not even when we're doing the podcast about Dan Scott, the image that came to mind when you were explaining that to me was a fist. And you made a fist out of love, but you still hit your kid. Right.

And that's what I think hurts us all when we watch him in these early years is it's like, God, you just can't. Dan Scott can't stop emotionally punching his kid. But the reason that for some reason we as viewers so badly want him to redeem himself, we see something in him, is that you didn't play it as just a dad who was emotionally abusive to his kid. You actually turned...

broken in him into like the most heartbreaking kind of a generational trauma where you're like, oh no, he's doing the exact wrong thing. But that's why we see something else in him because it's motivated by something tender and to be able to hold that kind of complexity for a character. For how many years? Wow. Yeah. What did it do to your life? Wow.

To play this bad guy. Well, I mean. Like, I remember going into the Dixie Grill in Wilmington to get, like, sloppy eggs. And it was back when you could, like, still smoke inside. And drinking coffee. And, like, they had, like, a little, like, you know, display case at the front of the store. And they were selling Dan Scott mugs there because you were the iconic, you know,

guy that you love to hate. Um, didn't you live right above them at that point too? Wow. Yeah. I loved that apartment. Yeah. That was a good apartment. Ball closer to the wine. I could be, you know, perfect. Um,

How soon after the show launched, did you start feeling, feeling the feedback of playing Dan Scott? You know, this was obviously again, before a lot of the social media was kicking in, but there were some of those forums that you could read about. And I tried not to. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. So when did people start picking on you? I'm glad social media didn't exist. Well, you guys know me. I had that one experience in New York. I had the girl on first in, in a, on an airplane and,

move, ask the stewardess to move her because she was sitting across from me and she was scared. And I was like, you know, no, no, I'm just a Canadian guy. Yeah.

It often scares me sometimes that people do not have a separation channel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We really get that with our show in a way that I haven't seen for a lot of other people. Because we blurred the line between fact and fiction numerous times, you know, like Haley went out on tour. Joy went out on tour. We did the sun kissed concerts. We did the sun kissed concerts. You know, like we,

We blurred that line so much that I understand why it's confusing for people. We've been talking this morning about how, you know, we have been critical of our own characters and also critical of Lucas's character. In recent episodes. Yeah, because what was normal for boy behavior in 2003, you know, 18 years later, is not acceptable behavior. You don't flirt with two girls at the same time. You don't gaslight girls. Like,

And people are really upset because they're like, how could you betray Lucas? And I think Dan exemplifies this in a really tangible way because you can have someone who is doing something inappropriate and it doesn't make them a terrible person. It doesn't make them beyond redemption. Right.

Peyton and Lucas are still endgame. Yeah. But if they started off two perfect people falling in love and perfectly being together for six years, that would be a boring show. It's a boring story. And life is messy. And that's part of just learning how to live your life and grow up. Are we not allowed to be messy people? Exactly. I'm super fucking messy all the time. Is everyone supposed to be perfect?

all the time. I'm not on board with that. And I think this idea of perfectionism is really toxic. And I think especially for us as women who've been very open about things we've been through, when we see bad behavior against women modeled, it's incredibly important to talk about it. And duh, the whole point is that we're doing this episode by episode. So if, by the way, look at how critical I've been of Brooke. Yeah, you were terrible at that party. Good God, the worst...

I want to be able to say that is not acceptable behavior and then look where she gets to go. Yeah. And we know what's coming for Lucas. He is, to your point, two-timing, not just two girls, best friends. Mm-hmm. It's not okay at the stage we're at in the podcast and the series rewatch, but...

I think what's cool is that, and I think why our show has resonated with people, is that all of the people, even for their failings, even for when they come up short, that character, my character, our characters, they learn, they grow, they become better versions of themselves. And my hope is that if we hold them accountable, ourselves accountable, we can also encourage people to say, hey, you're so much more than the worst thing you ever did.

Maybe you were in a bad stage of your life, but look where you could go. You can get your happy drive off into the sunset with your hot wife and your cute baby. Like, go after that. Go and get it. Well, in this episode, Dan is the hero. Mm-hmm.

Because it's the episode where there's the car crash where Keith has been drinking. Yeah. Chad's character is in a lot of trouble with his health. And Dan is the one that steps up and says, I'm your dad. And I'm going to sign off on this surgery. And it is the first time we see Karen look at Dan's character, perhaps the way she looked at him. In high school. In high school. I just have to say, I know we're talking about this episode, but Paul...

In that scene in the last episode where you look at the doctors and you say, do it. I'm his father. Luke, I am your father. Literally. But the three of us all went on Zoom all at the same time we gasped. It was so powerful after his behavior. Yeah. And to...

That plays into the conversation about the real motivation behind the character, which is the love, you know, which helps bring about the redemption in the end of the series. So to hear you say that now, after we just watched that scene, we were so emotionally touched by it, but now I feel like I understand it in a way that I didn't before. That's beautiful. Can you mention something about what you said earlier yourself about this idea of like this

sort of like the jumping back and forth with, like, with, you know, you talked about Lucas is dating two girls and at the end of the episode there's forgiveness for everybody, you know, and...

I think the one thing, and this is sort of really relevant in my life now, but this idea of forgiveness, forgiveness is so undervalued nowadays. And it's so undervalued in artistry. It's undervalued in taking chances in your life. Yes. Mistakes. We're going to say dumb jokes. We're going to.

unintentionally hurt people's feelings or do bad things. But if we truly are looking to sort of move forward and evolve towards a sort of more perfect being and towards a more perfect being, I think this forgiveness factor is completely the only way to get there. Absolutely. Yeah.

You can't have a functional society without forgiveness. And you can't have a functioning society without communication.

Because look, we all, the four of us, we know each other well enough. I know when any of you is keeping a secret or having a rough day or you need a hug, but you look real professional up on stage at a Sunkist event. Sophia FaceTimed me the other day and she's like, you seemed real fine on that Zoom, Hillary. What's going on? And I was like, oh, it's messy. Yeah.

I think we can forget that not everyone out in the world speaks the same language from the same emotional information that we do. And we've been talking a lot, the three of us, about how we wish we'd had the tools when we were 21 to ask each other questions

Hey, I feel like you feel this way about me. Is that true? Or, hey, I heard a thing. Was that real? You know, if we could have just asked and, and, and I, I want to be very clear. There's, there's a line, um, between clearly abhorrent and, and inappropriate and, and, you know, violent, uh, and biased behavior. And, um,

Just being messy. Being messy, but also like where people come from culturally, senses of humor, senses of humor that come from the world of athletics versus from theater schools. They're very different. And being able to communicate and say, that felt weird. What'd you mean? Just let everybody know.

grow together because someone then might say oh, oh well my friends and I used to make this joke all the time and then the person in the room who's new could go yeah, I had someone make fun of me for that once in it and you go Oh God, like tell me more and then you bond Right there is when someone's intent is to grow and learn they're going to fumble along the way to grow and learn So what they go, hey

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Paul, can I tell a story? Sure. This is a story about you and it is a thing that I have like carried deep in my heart. I don't even know if we've talked about this. There was a day that you and I, and I, I genuinely, I'm going to be really honest. I don't remember if we were in New York for press or if we were just on the street in Wilmington, but we would go out a lot and it was daytime. I remember cause, cause I was shocked by the behavior in the light of day.

And you and I were walking down the street, and your airplane story made me think of this. A lady passed us and went, you. She gasped. And we both looked, and it was like something took over her body. And I'll never forget, she had one of those, like, you know, Kate Spade bags with the straps. And she went, ah. And as she was scoffing at you, she pulled her bag off her shoulder. And it was a bag with a zip top so she could swing it. Ah!

And she started swinging her bag and hitting you. What? Over and over. And she literally went, you are such a bad dad. Was it ever her? No. She was hitting him in the arm with this bag. Yeah. And Paul, I'll never forget because this was the clarity of many things for me with you. Your generosity of spirit.

Your understanding of expectation and your deep awareness from having been an athlete of what your size conveys to people. You looked so shocked. I saw the hurt on your face. And then as she kept smacking you, I watched you have a thought.

Take a deep breath, stand up a little taller. And you literally, you gave this woman who watched our show what she wanted because she thought of you as Dan Scott. And you made a choice and you leaned in and you said, yeah, I am a bad dad. And you winked at her. And she, all of a sudden the spell was broken and she started laughing and then she patted you on the forearm and said, oh, you're just so good. Right?

And then she walked away. And you guys, it was the wildest thing because I watched a person assault our friend, think it was okay because he was a big, a physically big man. And then you, I saw how much it hurt you and how quickly you decided to be kind to her instead of to be honest about how you felt.

And you made it into this moment. And I bet that woman has told that story for 18 years. All her friends. Oh, he's so sexy. Oh, you know what he said to me? He said, oh, I am a bad dad baby. Like, you know?

And I've never forgotten it. And it made me always see you and the way that you could see what people needed and give it to them, whether it was a hug or like you put on the Dan Scott hat. Yeah. You always have been willing to give people something.

The thing that you can see they're aiming for. And, and it, it, it is to me a signal of such intuition and empathy. And I think it's very rare. And I don't think it's a thing people know about the hot dad from TV. Who's real good at basketball. Yeah.

I want to talk about you as a bad husband because we've had Barbara on the show and in the earlier episodes, your chemistry together is really fun to watch and we all know it's going to go bad, but then your chemistry with Moira was on display in this episode. And so had you worked with either of them before? Did you know the women? I, I, I auditioned, um, the, the women, potential women to be Dan's wife, to be,

And there was no competition for her when she walked into the room. It was her. Wow. She, she was it. I mean, you could just tell, I mean, as she walked in the room and we just all went, do we need to read? Perfect.

She was. And she, have you ever met somebody that was so easy to be around on the set? Like just a joy to be on the set. Yeah. We've met that person. It's Barbara. Yeah. I mean, she was literally one of the easiest people to show up with and know that she's

Like a real pro. Yeah. Always knew her lines. Always knew her lines. Always kind of could figure out with the blocking. Was never the problem. Right. She's a dame. She's a dame. I worked with Sally Field a long time ago on a movie. And Sally would come every day. She would never go to her trailer. She would sit on the set in her chair. She did this needlepoint. Oh, yeah.

She was just there. Yeah. Boom. She was amazing. And Deb reminded me a lot of that kind of a, you know, that sort of like really took the job seriously, but didn't take themselves too seriously. First person with with Moira. I saw Moira in the late 80s.

on a dance floor in a nightclub in Hollywood. Tell us everything. Where were you? What was she wearing? I just finished watching the, what's the hockey movie? The Hottie Nedge. Hottie Nedge. Tobi.

We used to say it behind her back all the time. We'd be like, can we tell her? Can we tell her? Can we say Topic to her? Don't say it. It won't be cool. Don't say Topic. Don't say Topic. Well, I had to audition for that, for that D.B. Sweeney role a couple of times. I didn't get it. And I saw her on the dance floor and my jaw dropped. I was like, that person's a movie star. She's got it. You know, she has that thing. And then she was in Downey's movie, Chaplin. Oh, yeah. That's right. And.

And I really wanted to go to the set and see that, but they were shooting in London. And she, so I always wanted to work with her and she just brings a real savvy intellectualism about her. Like she always, you see her thinking on camera, which I love. Yes. Editing room. And you have an actress who is thinking and you're going, they're thinking, I got to cut to this person. And so I'm,

to them all the time because it's so interesting. So it's a way to steal screen time. She also very rarely changed lines, Moira. I'm noticing that as we watch back, which there's a lot of things where I'm like, man, if I had to say that dialogue, I definitely would have put up a little stink. I would have been like, I'm not saying that. I'm going to say it this way, blah, blah, blah. Which, you know, on some characters, in some...

It's too much champagne, guys. Champagne. Some jobs with some characters that works. It works. They want you to bring your own Flava Flav to the job. But when I watch her, she has made all of that dialogue work without changing it. And it's pretty great. It's inspiring. It is. She just has such a grace. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, big time. And Paul, I know we said it, but it really bears repeating that at the end of this episode, when Karen walks into the dealership to thank Dan, we all were like, oh God, look at them. Look at them looking at each other. Look at them looking at each other. There was some sexual tension there for sure. It was...

Like, light, hot heat. And I was like, I need to know so much more about Dan and Karen in my past. Yeah. I have a question for you. When you were in high school, who was your type, Paul? Was it Brooke, Haley, or Peyton? What was your flavor? Um...

So I was a late bloomer. I was, I didn't even until after high school. Good for you. Good for you. Same buddy. Same. Yeah, I was, I know this is going to sound a little weird, but I wasn't sure what my life was going to be. And a part of me thought I might want to become a priest. So wait, what?

You guys didn't know this? Did you know this? Of course I knew this. Oh my God. No, I didn't know. And I was quite serious about where my heart was about what I wanted. But then I found out that I would not be able to have a family.

And that was a non-starter for me. I want to be a dad. And, you know, I mean, obviously my faith has changed a lot over my lifetime and my years, my experiences. But, you know, the truth is, is I just wasn't sure I wanted to give all of that to a human being because at that moment I was giving it to something greater, I thought. What I was attracted to was, I was attracted to, I'm an odd dude. I'm really weird.

Nobody knows better than Joyce. You? My counselor the last 20 years on my dating escapades. But I pick very strange. And the truth is, here's a real big reveal. In the last couple of years, I've realized that, you know, through my conditioning as a very, very, you know, which brings us back to the Dan character a little bit, is that, you know, I'm the child of a very, very violent man. My father was a very violent man. He was an ex-anny child at the start.

And he was a bad drinker. And he was a mean drunk. And he was very, very violent. And he wasn't just violent to me. He was violent to my sister, my mom, all of us. He found his God and quit drinking. And for the last 25, 30 years of his life, he never had a drop of alcohol. But when I was young, growing up until I was like 10, 12, 14 years old, it was coming home and hiding in the closet, not knowing when he pulled it out.

And who he's going to beat up that night. So it was, so I have inside of me this trauma bond with mom. So my mom, my dad, I wasn't protected by my mom from a raging drunk and I wasn't protected by my dad, by, you know, a, you know, a mom who was sort of asleep at the wheel, letting it happen. We should have taken us away.

You know, it protected us. Yeah. So my relationships with the other sex has been very about not having trust. I don't trust you're going to take care of me because she didn't. Yeah.

Yeah. Years of my life have I discovered why I haven't been a good partner because I can't blame the other people. I have to blame myself when I'm not a good partner because either I chose poorly or I wasn't prepared to be wholly healed from that. So my choices have not been that good. When I was a young boy, I was always attracted to people that I thought were odd and quirky and mousy and nebbish and school bookish. Safe. Safe.

safe yeah i wasn't attracted to people that would challenge me because i

I didn't know how I would react because challenging meant fighting, not helping. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Makes so much sense. So now you guys out there all know why we can sit with Paul Johansson for hours on end. And tell him everything. With wine and great food or just on a park bench and you just never get tired of talking with him. Ever. He's the best. We love you so much. Paul, you... I love you. Yeah, you're so open and it gives us permission to be open and...

you know, it has set a really good example for us in what was oftentimes a toxic environment. You were a person that we could look to and be like, well, Paul's still standing. We'll just do it his way. We loved you. And I think something really incredible, and I would imagine for the folks who are, you know, listening along with us having this conversation, that first of all, your generosity and being willing to share your story

both your personal story and also how you chose to inform the on-screen character, who I would imagine was very informed by the way you grew up. Mm-hmm. You...

You played a character who I bet on, you know, some silly, you know, dot com list would be listed as like the worst toxic villain from TV. And yet you are sitting here being the actual living proof of how a person can undo a generational inheritance of toxic masculinity. Yeah. Can examine sex.

a really dangerous environment that they were raised in and say, oh, I have been drawn to

hectic, frenetic energy. I'm not going to do that. I want to be a dad. I want to change my life. I want to heal the child in me so that I can be a good parent to the child I'm going to have. Which you are. You are such a... God damn it. Oh, Paul! You are such a good dad. Yeah. And Paul, you...

you were that for us. Like you were our safe space. And I know that people used your athletic body and strong jaw, which is so handsome. Strong jaw. God damn it, that strong jaw. But they used it as an excuse to sometimes hit you with purses and project all of that Dan Scott bullshit onto you. But you were literally

at times, a human shield for us. You stepped in and you got in the way and you protected us. And emotionally, I mean it, you were always the North Star. And to know the friend that you are to us and the father that you are to your son and the man that you were as a leader, not only as an actor, but a director on our set,

You made everybody laugh. You charmed the goddamn grins off everybody's faces. My parents thought I was going to run away with Paul. They all were like, what's happening? But you, you did it carrying this legacy and you've done the work. Like gentlemen, take notes, get it together. Ladies line up. We love you. Thank you so much for coming and being a part of this.

Thank you for letting me be a part of this, you guys. What episode do you want to come back for? Come back all the time. Like which episode? Oh my God. Should it be the reverse of like three men and a baby and it's just the three of us in ball forever? Are you ready? You guys have so much going on right now. It's every one of you is so busy. I mean, it's unbelievable what's happening with you guys. You're like this.

It's incredible, like, power. We keep joking that we're like Captain Planet. We got back together and we're like, wow. We put all our rings together. What episode do you want to come back for? Shoot your shot. What's your favorite? You have to look. I mean, I watched this episode and I was so impressed with, you know, what I thought was they laid the groundwork for really good

like a really good yarn. Like there's great stuff in this episode. There was a scene in there where James comes and talks to a comatose Chad. Yes. Wasn't that so good? Good on you, man. Like good for you, brother. It was beautiful. You know, James, you know, is a very strong, you know, human being and he, and he brings stoicism to it and, and, you know, and depth. Yes.

And I love the Karen and Deb scene where they talk, you know, and, and really share for a moment. That's sort of builds this whole, you know, I love that they spent a lot of some more time in the early seasons with, with some of the older actors, you know, I wish they kept doing that. Y'all were expensive, Paul.

That's what happened. I don't know what happened, but I don't, I don't, I mean, I'm glad everything has to evolve. It is what it is anymore. And even Barry was lovely when he came in. Wasn't he so good. Well, think about, think about what episode you would want to come back for. Let us know. But before we let you know, we have to spin a wheel.

And this wheel is most likely to... These are our superlatives. Oh, yes. So we've got a whole collection of possible questions here. We decided to just own the high school yearbook. You know what I mean? Okay. Most likely to be late to their own wedding. Oh, jeez. This could be character or an actor. Yes. You know, if anyone from the show, a character or an actor. Who would be late to their own wedding? Me? Me?

I was going to say Dan Scott. Quick story. I was directing the episode in the wood house. Remember where we're all out in the cabin. Yes. Was it Rachel's parents? Yes. Oh, I loved that place. We were there and we were getting ready to shoot the scene and then everybody was in it. So it was like, it was like a nightmare. Yeah. It was brutal. And we're about ready to shoot. And the last two people waiting for, for our,

Joy and Sophia. So we're waiting and we're waiting and we go, and finally, I can't remember, what was the first AD's name? Did they take bets? Was it Rick or was it Chad? I think it was Chad. Chad Graves. Chad Graves, our first AD, yeah. Should we take bets on who's going to be here first? I called it. So you're going to take these out to secretly follow you as you left your chair.

And we had announcements on the set. We were all sitting down. Oh, my God. I'm so mortified. And we were about to go, okay, Sophia's out of her trailer. She's walking. Oh, she's got a phone call. And everyone goes. I was like, why was I late? Was I walking Annie? What was I doing? So half the people were going, we're voting for Joy to be late. Half were voting for you to be late. So we're having a competition. So then Joy's on her way. She's coming. Oh, she turned towards the craft table. Oh, my God.

And then Sophia starts to walk again. She's got another call and everyone goes, oh. And then Joy. Joy forgot something of the craft, but she's going back for it. Oh. By the way, you know what I bet? I bet you and I are watching going, well, clearly nobody's on set because she's over there. Well, she's over there. And we're like, well, I'm just going to take my sweet ass time. That's horrifying. Oh, God. I'm so sorry. Who won? Yeah. Who did? Do you remember who got to sit first? I think Joy was last. And that's what I think happened.

Food wins over everything. I love it. I would forget to pick my kid up from school if it meant food. Oh, my God. Not true. I think when you guys got to the set, everyone clapped, and you were like, what's... That I remember. I remember the whole crew bursting out into applause and the confused look on your faces like, what's going on?

The only reason I was on set is because I was kissing a crew member. I was always on set. I like that about you. I do remember, though, there was always that thing because there were so many of us all the time.

Where somebody would be, because they always tell you they're ready for you before they are. That's a lie. So they'd be like, we're ready for you. And then you go to set and sit around for 20 minutes. I'm like, I could have had a snack. So then we started doing this thing. Well, we stopped at the crafty table. Honestly, you're not wrong. But we started doing this thing, which in hindsight, I realized was probably pretty terrible, where you'd look around and see which of your coworkers was also dawdling and be like, well, clearly they're not actually ready for us because look at us all out here. Yeah, we're all just on the lawn. Skateboarding and playing with our dogs. Like, oh, God.

To phone calls and peanut butter. Yeah. God bless. God bless. Paul, you are a prince. I am glad that our listening audience knows the real you underneath the Dan Scott at all. If you see Paul in real life, hug him. Tell him how wonderful he is. Be affectionate. And if you hit Paul in real life, I'll hit you back. I didn't then, but I'm,

I'm ready now. I love you guys. I love you all. We love you too. We love you. I'll see you for dinner on Friday night. Bye. Bye. Bye.

ladies and gentlemen, you got to get experience a real treat. That was just a small glimpse into many, many a night that we shared with Paul Johanson. Five hour dinners. Oh yeah. Every time. Amazing. Every time. So I guess next week we'll talk a little bit more about this past episode that we didn't really dive too much into. It's worth it to me. You guys, Lucas was in a coma the whole time. Yeah, what are we going to talk about? Oh,

wait, you know what I could do? I took notes while we watch. Let's do rapid fire. We're going to do rapid fire guys. So this is how we do this podcast. We take notes of what we saw word. So here's my notes guys. I'm setting one minute timer. Go. Okay. Did uncle Keith ever go to rehab? Oh my God.

my god there were answering machines yeah uh hayley was the queen of boundaries thank you so much brooke showing up in tears and introducing herself to karen oh baby that was so sad and joy burst out laughing and we realized it was a hilarious moment in the tragedy of it all brooke is such a good girlfriend she really is

The pause, were you drinking before you drove Lucas? That was so intense. Wait, Deb with the picnic basket in the hospital. Hilarious. That was beautiful. And realizing that Keith in that blink of an eye knew his whole future ended. Peyton saying, I'll wait forever if I have to. Just six seasons, girl. Just six years. Endgame is coming. It was always in the script. Also, Lucas talked to his mom about Peyton but not Brooke. And then Kelly

Karen says best friends can forgive each other anything. I needed to hear that. How sweet it was that the boys were waiting for news of Lucas at the river court. It was like,

And what about the hat? Another beanie with a flower. Another classic Haley hat. Oh, Lord. The sweet moment about love on the rooftop. It makes me think about years later the idea of context. What does that mean? Yeah, Burke gives a speech at Nathan and Haley's wedding about, like, love is not love, that something about changing in context. I don't know. I feel like that's Shakespeare. It made me think about that and, like, oh.

oh, there was always such a love there. The two of you sharing the moment basically saying like we know what it is to love Lucas but in different context. Different ways, guys. The timer's going off but I have to say one last thing. Okay, okay. What does Deb need forgiveness for? What is it? Right! Oh, and the

the Sheryl Crow song montage at the end. Good God. It killed me. Sheryl Crow is perfect. Guys, we love you. We love you. Thank you. And every time Paul comes, we probably won't talk about the episode. And we're guessing that these will be our most popular episodes of the show. So in advance, you're welcome. Huzzah! Huzzah. Huzzah.

listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at DramaQueensOTH or email us at DramaQueens at iHeartRadio.com See you next time!

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