247. Can we be friends with our ex?
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Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s. It is great to have you here for a very special topic in my mind.

Two years ago, I did an episode on whether exes could be friends. And during that episode, I brought on my ex-boyfriend. If you have been around for a while, you probably remember this episode. And this is the first ever time that I have gone back to an episode from the archives, back to one that I recorded, you know, almost two years ago and decided to redo it.

decided to basically say, you know what, I think that I was wrong. I don't think that what I said in that episode, the points that I made are entirely true, are mature, are actually what I believe in anymore. And so today I want to redo that episode, this time without my ex-boyfriend because I

We are no longer friends. And we haven't been friends actually since that episode came out. I haven't spoken to him since that episode came out. And, you know, I just felt kind of strange to have this episode on the podcast making these huge claims that it's mature to stay friends with your ex, that it's possible, like look at us. We've done it when actually the reality of what happened after that was entirely...

To the contrary and entirely not true, but

that episode actually essentially meant that our friendship or whatever it was ended and I'm not going to go into specific details but it was definitely a lesson for me around the truth that people are telling you can be a different truth for other people. Like they could be telling you one thing and telling other people something different and it actually ended up

causing me a lot of pain like the aftermath of that episode and yeah not really realizing that he hadn't been entirely honest with me there were things that he hadn't told me and to this day it still kind of upsets me that I like kind of gave that relationship a platform when it was definitely not a perfect relationship we definitely did not have a perfect friendship you know I thought we were friends I think he thought something differently and

And so it kind of came around the time to, you know, not to go into any specific reasons, but after thinking about it for a while, I was like, you know what, I think it's time that we do this again. And it was the aftermath of that episode. The irony is, you know, definitely obvious to me here.

that really proved to me that I actually don't think exes can be friends. And I think that the relationship that you have with your ex ended for a reason. And that reason is probably just as good of a reason as to why you

you wouldn't want to be friends with that person anyways. Of course, you know, there are definitely exceptions to what I'm saying, but if you've ever seen the film, He's Just Not That Into You, there is a line in that movie, a very famous line, that typically, for most of us, we are the exception, we are not the rule, and maybe that's why we should be. And when it comes to being friends with your ex, I think the rule is genuinely, and generally, that's not a good idea.

And perhaps this is a hard pill for you to swallow, especially if you are just fresh out of a relationship. You're trying to find a way to kind of maintain a friendship because you don't want to lose them. You're not ready to move on. I would really encourage you to keep listening, even if what we talk about in today's episode isn't necessarily what you want to hear. You know, in my mind, I think that.

The friendships that we try and maintain with our exes, they all reach a breaking point sooner or later. And you can believe that you are friends, you can try and be friends, you can convince yourself that you are, but only up to a point. And then you just kind of have to face the facts. I think like any friendship, there are ups and downs. But a friendship with your ex, especially someone that you once loved, that you were once romantically attracted to, sexually attracted to,

There are definitely more downs than ups when it comes to those kinds of friendships. And it ends up impacting every other aspect of our lives, like who we go on to date, how we see ourselves, jealousy, resentment, so much more. So today we are going to break down exactly why it is that my mind has been changed, what some of the research has to say about the nature of a friendship between exes and why it's

Probably not a good idea based on principles of attraction and social psychology, but also the often deeply emotional reasons that we try and convince ourselves that we can be the exception and ultimately the consequences of that. I also do want to talk about the instances where you might not have a choice. You're in the same friendship group. You co-parent. You work together. You run a business. You share assets.

Whatever it is, there are situations where it's, you know, it's not up to us. How exactly can we work through those unique circumstances the best that we can? You know, since that first episode came out, so many of you,

have reached out to me and wanted a follow-up and they you know you wanted to know whether my opinion has changed it most certainly has and I've definitely also become more informed both through experience and also just a deeper look at what's factual and what's evidence-based so hopefully I can bestow some of that wisdom onto you

Without further ado, let's get into the nitty gritty of maintaining a friendship with your ex and why that's probably not always going to be a good idea.

I feel as if a lot of us end a relationship with this hope that we can stay friends. You know, it's almost a bit of a cliche that you hear a lot, you know, yeah, we broke up, but we're going to stay friends. We're going to try and stay friends. Who amongst that hasn't said that before? And I'm obviously included, very much included in that boat. We have this real sense that we can kind of keep things friendly and still, you know, remain in each other's lives and

despite all of those who have tried before us, we can be the exception. And I think primarily the reason we think that is because the idea of going from a relationship to a friendship is a lot easier to digest than going from a relationship to nothing. That leap into the abyss just kind of feels way too mentally painful for us to grasp onto in the midst of a lot of other feelings.

The notion, you know, that this person could suddenly not be in our lives anymore when they were probably one of the most important people to us only a few hours, a few days, a few weeks ago. That is really, really horrifying. It's a big adjustment.

Of course, you know, if an ex cheated, if something horrific happened, if there was like an all out explosion, it's a lot easier to make that call and to just be like, I never want to see that person again because their true colors, you know, are very, very real in that moment. There is no forgiveness. There is no moving on. But in those relationships where nothing drastic has happened, you know, it's more of a slow realization. That's where you get into trouble.

The kind of breakups that I think best lend us to believing that we can stay friends with our exes are firstly those in which we were friends to begin with. You know, if you were, if you initially had that foundation of platonic intimacy, I think moving into a romantic space and then having to exit it and maybe losing that friendship as well, it's just such a loss emotionally.

However, I do think that once you have a romantic relationship with someone, the very core, the very nature of that relationship has been changed. It's a different dynamic now. It's never going to be the same. And that's something that we all kind of have to, you know, accept or ignore.

So expect when we first start dating a friend, once you move into that territory, I think it's very hard to exit it in a way that is not painful and in which no one's going to be hurt.

Another example, I think, of the kinds of relationships where we really think we can stay friends with someone is when the relationship is just fizzled. I often think that, you know, when it's just kind of like, oh, I don't really have feelings for you anymore. Yeah, me neither. You're kind of like, OK, well, maybe we're better off as friends. But suddenly, and I see this a lot in the aftermath, this person is like more exciting to you.

While you were in a relationship with them, you didn't have feelings for them. Things were fading, but then suddenly they're off limits. Suddenly it's exciting.

It's known in psychology as reactance theory. This sense that when we feel like we're about to lose something or we're not going to have the same access to something or our freedom around something is about to be limited, i.e. you can no longer call them, text them, cuddle them, be with them. When we finally start to realize that, that they're off limits, this often causes us to almost try harder to bring the relationship back.

or to restore what we had before because there is this very natural and psychological aversion to loss. I have a friend who's going through this at the moment. She was with her ex for a couple of years and she basically confessed that she'd really just lost feelings for him. She didn't see him in a romantic way anymore. And then they broke up and suddenly she was like, well, this whole wave of feelings suddenly hit me again.

And now they're kind of sleeping with each other. They're doing all these things that they used to do in the early days of their relationship. And I kind of said to her, very lovingly, of course, I was like, you can either trust the version of yourself three months ago who knew that this wasn't what you wanted and who knew the relationship wasn't right. You can also trust the version of you in six months from now who's likely going to be thinking the same thing.

Or you can try it out. You can try and get back together. You can try and see if this pseudo friendship slash kind of relationship is going to work. And you can learn whatever lesson you need to learn from that. But I don't think that that's going to be the outcome that you want. And maybe I sound like a cynic. But I think when we have only been broken up with someone for a little while, trying to be friends with them, the only recent memory of them that we have is

is in a romantic sense so we're going to fall back into that pattern of recreating and rehearsing all the romantic actions and feelings that we used to have for each other because that is what you can access the easiest that is the most present and recent thing in your memory I think the final situation where we try and be friends with an ex and this was my situation

is where you both kind of ended the relationship being like, we just need to work on ourselves. That's the reason that we can't be together. You know, nothing was explicitly wrong about the relationship itself. It's just that neither of you were really your best people in those circumstances. So you choose to stay friends. That is basically what happened to me with the ex that I brought on the podcast.

And slowly over time, I realized that this idea that, you know, we just needed to work on ourselves. It's not that we weren't right for each other. It's just that we were both in different spaces. That wasn't actually the reason that we broke up. That was just the reason that was easiest to tell myself, at least.

And what I ended up realizing was, you know, if I couldn't be my best self in a relationship with this person, if it was the case that I didn't feel supported, they didn't make me better, they didn't make me brighter, such that I felt I needed to leave the relationship in order to achieve those things. What was a friendship with him going to provide me that was different?

why, you know, why did I need him to still be in my life? If when he was incredibly present in my life, my life actually wasn't that great. It's a really interesting thing to realize. And inevitably, there was this influence that he definitely had over my life that

extend it into our friendship that ended up creating so much chaos and so much sadness and so much just like anger for so many people that I think really revealed to me that the reason I was telling myself was not the true reason. Of course, when you are bonded with someone, when you share core memories with them, it's very hard as well to recover from losing that important connection overnight as humans. Connection is the thing that just...

means the most to us in some ways we have a natural tendency to not want to lose that so it's going to be painful it's going to be hard but aiming for a friendship in my mind is like putting a band-aid on a bullet on a bullet hole like not to use an outdated metaphor but it's a bullet hole that you are actually going to have to look at at some stage the band-aid is not healing it it's just hiding it

Something I have really taken from my past relationships is that when you pursue a friendship, you are actually just delaying your heartbreak by demoting the relationship rather than ending it. And I just want to say that one more time. You are delaying your heartbreak by demoting the relationship rather than ending it when you know you should. You're basically...

putting off the inevitability that this relationship was not right for a reason and that there is a reason you shouldn't be in each other's lives, you can either experience that right now and then in six months time feel healed, feel better about it or you can spend the next six months trying to be friends with that person and just delay that grieving process, that healing process. The feelings and the reactions that are associated with heartbreak

They aren't going to change. It just depends on when you experience them, not if you experience them. So that's my opinion. You can't be friends with your ex. It's not possible. It's a bad idea. What is my evidence for that? Well, we are going to talk about all of that and so much more after this short break.

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For such a strong opinion, I think you guys would know that I have some evidence for holding this belief. You know, I'm not one to just say something and be like, yep, and that's true because I believe it and so it must be. But there is a lot of evidence, there is a lot of psychology, there have been a lot of recent research papers that have pointed to, you know, the difficulty, the innate difficulty of transitioning a romantic relationship into a platonic friendship.

The first reason why this is so hard is that often some form of romantic attachment still remains. And this means that you are going to find it really hard to move on and pursue not only a new relationship, but also fully embrace your single life whilst the kind of lingering presence of your ex as a friend remains.

So there was a 2017 study conducted by researchers from the Department of Psychology at the University of Kansas. By the way, the University of Kansas has an amazing psychology department. I've been realizing this from all the really cool research that they are putting out. I don't know why I felt the need to say that, but just I'm loving what they're doing at the moment. They put out this research paper and in this paper, they found that when lingering romantic or sexual desires exist,

It is really challenging to push those feelings aside in favor of a friendship. And most people actually find themselves returning to those feelings time and time again, even if they believe that it's no longer the case for them. Even if they're like, no, no, I'm totally over it. It's hard to unlearn that association.

As a result of that, participants really reported that it had become very difficult for them to imagine themselves with someone else. They found it difficult to connect with new people when they were actively dating.

And it also resulted in some pretty obsessive behaviors. So even though people were like, yeah, yeah, I'm just friends with my ex. I don't, you know, they're nothing more than just a friend. They would check on them on social media more than they would do with their other regular friends. They would message them when they knew they shouldn't. They weren't able to stop thinking about them. When you have this friendship with an ex, I think it limits your ability to fully move on.

And with that, it limits your ability to eventually find someone better, find a more successful relationship, find a relationship that is right for you. Firstly, because our mind is constantly in a state of comparing our current partner with our previous partner, but also because that friendship and the exact specifics of it can create tension in a new relationship. You know, think about it this way.

You go on a first date with someone and you're really getting along and they're just amazing. And you go on a few more dates and it's just working. On like the fourth or fifth date, they say, oh, come and meet my friends. And you meet their friends. You like pull up to their place and he goes, oh, this is my friend Jessica. Actually, we dated for three years, but you know, we're just friends now. Would that make you insecure? Would that make you question things?

I think that it would. You might say that it wouldn't. And you know what? You're a much better person than me. It would bother me. And when you maintain a relationship with your ex, you're making it so that you are the partner in that situation, making it very difficult for anybody new to not feel like there is some competition, that they have to crack you, that there is mistrust. And there is that addition of retroactive jealousy, right? Feeling jealous over previous relationships and kind of like a resentment.

and a questioning like are there lingering feelings? Do I have something to worry about? And that kind of doubt is not something that is particularly helpful in the early days of a new relationship. When you maintain a relationship with your ex, what you are essentially doing is putting any new person who wants to walk into your life, you're putting them through that experiment. You're putting them through those line of questionings and it can actually really sabotage your chances at future love.

So another study, because there are actually a surprisingly wonderful amount of studies on relationships between exes and that transition into friendship. This study was conducted a bit earlier in 2012 and it was published in the Journal of Social Psychology and I think Personality Science. It examined how lingering attachment to ex-partners goes on to affect your current relationships.

So they conducted this longitudinal study and it followed a group of individuals who had recently gone through a breakup over a six month period as they entered a new relationship. And they asked them at two month intervals to report how they felt about their current relationship with this new person. How was it going? Were they happy? Was all well?

And then they also had to report whether they still felt any lingering emotional attachment to their ex-partner. Unsurprisingly, the more attached someone felt to an ex, the more their current relationship suffered. There was even an indication for some that maybe the new partner was just a substitute for their old partner. And that just never feels nice.

I don't want to be that person for someone. So I don't want to make someone that person for me. And I think this research in particular really indicates why you need space, why you need boundaries. Yes, you might have unfinished business relating to children, work, friendship, but that doesn't mean that you guys need to be friends. And that doesn't mean that they have to have a continuing active role in your life.

let's also be you know just completely honest with ourselves here for a second is this really going to be a good friendship your friendship with your ex is that going to be the same kind of friendship you have with your girlfriends or your close mates they may have been a great partner you know it might have just not worked out but a despite you thinking that you guys could be friends you never know what someone else is thinking you

So even if you have mentally moved into the entirely platonic realm, you cannot always tell if they have. That's something that I learned. But B, they aren't really your friend, are they? The way that you would interact with your real friends, I think that there is a natural difference there. And the best way to realize that is using this really simple thought exercise. Imagine that they get a new boyfriend, a new girlfriend, a new partner.

Would your friendship still be the exact same that it is right now? Could you still ask them for the same things? Could you go to them for the same level of support? You know, would it change if they got a new partner?

I think it definitely would. It most certainly would. Because you've fulfilled a specific role for them, the role of a romantic partner. And for most of us, that is a limited position that can only be filled by one person. That's not the same as a friendship, is it? You know, you can have amazing friends who will hopefully, you will always be able to trust who you

who love you, who care about you. And that friendship, those organic, normal, natural friendships, they are not conditional on them finding someone better. You would not be replaced. Your friendship wouldn't be

demoted it wouldn't be neglected if your person was suddenly to start dating someone new maybe in the natural sense but it's not like you were the reason like it's not like your previous relationship was the reason that suddenly you can't be as close as you were

I just think that friendships should leave us feeling seen. They should leave us feeling safe and included and loved and held and just like happy. And I don't think I have ever been friends with an ex who has made me feel that way. It's always been that the friendship has made me feel desperate and anxious. Yes, it was a bit exciting, but there was also this undertone consistently of longing, of not being able to forget the past. And eventually that was what hurt us.

So a group of researchers actually went about trying to determine whether a friendship with an ex would actually be a good idea, whether it actually is a good friendship based on some very factual evidence-based indicators. And they basically measured, you know, how do people feel after hanging out with their ex?

Does the number of positive interactions outweigh the number of negative interactions? When people come to them afterwards in the study, are they primarily lingering on things that they weren't happy with about the interaction or did they just feel ultimately really positive? And the way they studied with this was that they surveyed both male and females who reported having a friend who was once a romantic partner and a friend who was just purely platonic.

And both types of friendships were kind of compared and they asked them after interactions with each person, how do you feel? You know, do you feel good after this? Do you feel that there is like that this relationship is quite a quality relationship? Are you happy? And the results indicate a significant difference between

People felt really, really happy in their friendships with their platonic friends. They would leave those interactions and be like, gosh, that was fun. I had a great time. I feel really bright and light and easy and breezy.

But when they exited an interaction with their ex who was their friend, they actually typically reported more negative experiences. They were more likely to say negative things about this person and their mood was more likely to decline. So it's not like this friendship is even actually giving us anything other than that it's just this lingering attachment to someone we once cared about.

There is, of course, and this is the final thing we really do need to speak to, there is the addition of sexual attraction, which we haven't spoken about yet. I'm sure a lot of it is in the back of our minds, for sure. The real question is, you know, how long does it actually take for that sexual desire, for that sexual attraction towards someone to disappear? And the bigger question is, does it ever actually disappear?

This level of mutual desire and attraction definitely lingers. That is why so many of us end up, you know, perhaps sleeping with our ex again out of, you know, I don't know, sexual nostalgia, but also a need for comfort. And that is not platonic in my mind. You know, speaking from experience.

I do think that like sexual desire and your level of attraction towards something towards someone sorry it does fade over time like I look at my exes now and I'm like no don't want any piece of that I could never I feel nothing towards you I'm not attracted to you in the slightest but if you are freshly out of the relationship you haven't crossed into that threshold yet maybe once you do you can be friends when no sexual desire lingers and

But even then, like think about all of the above reasons. Think about all of that evidence that says this is not a good idea. I want to offer just one more reason here as well. And this reason is the most profound to me as to why we cannot be friends with our ex. And it's that it jeopardizes the healing process. And that is the most important thing that we need to prioritize in the wake of a heartbreak or a breakup.

Being friends with your ex just means it takes longer to grieve and longer to recover. It's going to make it hard for you to move on. It's not going to make you feel great about yourself. And inevitably, it influences our ability to find closure. Closure is just going to be such a buzzword in this episode. It's basically our mind's ability to put an end to an ongoing narrative or story that is occurring in our brain.

It is our brain's ability to find a conclusion that makes sense to us and makes sense based on our values and our sense of self. Essentially, it means that we can look at a relationship and say, you know, this didn't work out for these reasons. And actually, that was a good thing because of these reasons. So let's close this chapter. We'll get on to writing our next chapter. There is a sense of peace. A lot of people report like a sense of silence, a sense of

I was about to say closure, but that's the exact word we're trying to describe. I think you know it when you feel it. Well, when an ex becomes a friend, it means that there is no closing that chapter. They're going to keep showing up in all these future chapters. The story never finishes. When we go no contact with an ex, when we limit connection,

We do still naturally have all of these questions that are going to come up at the end of the relationship. Why didn't this work? Did they ever love me? Is there a future? Like, what did I do wrong? What did they do wrong? Naturally, we have questions. But the thing is, is that we have to find answers to those questions for ourselves in the best way we know how. Like, we just have to be able to provide ourselves with answers.

closure knowing that there is nothing that anyone else can say that's going to bring peace unless it makes sense to you. So that's really important because that need for closure is a really powerful driver of decisions. It's a really powerful driver of behaviors because in our search for closure what we're really looking for is an end to confusion and ambiguity and in that search for

an end to our ambiguity in a search for clarity our brain is going to keep returning to a scenario over and over again until it receives that when we go no contact our need for closure drives us inwards when we are friends with our ex our need for closure will drive us to them because they are available

The questions never stop and neither does our search for answers. But, you know, there they are. They're right there. You can go and ask them those questions. You can go to that person and feel like you're going to get a release when really there's nothing they can say to you. That is the core part about closure. It is an entirely personally motivated and personally driven experience. But we get confused thinking that someone else can give it to us.

And I remember having this exact experience with someone I dated when I was like 19 or 20. And, you know, it didn't work, but we tried to stay friends. And it just meant that every single week, you know, I had more questions. I felt differently. I had all these things come up.

But because we were still quote-unquote friends, I could go to him with these questions. There is nothing worse than a bad cold at the worst possible time, and not like the sniffles, but one of those really tough colds that just knocks you down hard. That's why it's a good idea to always keep the new Theraflu soft chews nearby, and I mean right at your fingertips, ready for action. It's got the same multi-symptom relief that you get from Theraflu, but they're easy to take chewables, and when you're suffering through a really severe cold,

Easy is always really, really nice. That way, while you're laid up in bed or hunkered down on the couch, suffering through your cold, you can just grab a Theraflu soft chew whenever you need it instead of stumbling to the kitchen and making some herbal cold remedy. Plus, these chewables have the same power of Theraflu in every single bite to relieve symptoms fast and easily.

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party pack of desserts to share with friends when you're hosting. Every treat is crafted with love and creativity. With the mouth-watering aroma of freshly baked desserts in the air, Crumble's open kitchen concept invites you to witness their talented bakers whip up delectable treats right before your eyes, adding like an extra layer of excitement to your visit. And with the convenient options for delivery and pickup available, enjoying Crumble has never been easy. Perfect for family or friend gatherings or simply treating yourself.

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I could be like, hey, can we chat? Can we talk? I need closure. And actually the excuse of closure was really an excuse to stay friends. Not to stay friends, but it was an excuse to remain in contact with him and to not feel like I had lost him because that was really, really, it's a sad thing to acknowledge. It was only when I cut off contact for my own good that I got my closure because I realized it would never come from him.

And that's what I really want for you. I want the peace. I want the certainty. I want the liberation. I want you to know you're going to be okay without them. And that's when you really start to heal. Now, I've been teasing this for a while. There are some friendships where this is not possible. Unfortunately, you still have to be in their vicinity. So what do we do in those situations? Well, we're going to talk about all of that and much, much more after this short break.

When we have an ex with whom we maybe share a lot of mutual friends, we are bound to see each other every day at work, we have children, all of those things. What do we do with the relationship then when it is very hard to step away completely, almost impossible? What do we do when we feel forced to stay friends with them?

It's a really interesting article from the author Marissa Franco. She wrote this book called Platonic, How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. And she shares three questions that she asks her clients when they say, hey, I think I want to be friends with my ex.

And these questions are basically a way to make you understand when it's necessary and why that's okay and how to go on with a friendship, even when it's painful. But also when you don't have the same reasons that some of us do. So the questions that she asked are number one, why do you want to stay in touch with your ex? If it's for practical reasons, you know, you can move on to the next question. If you answered, you know, I need to stay in touch with them because I

I'm going to see them every single day through work. All my friends are his friends or her friends. Like there's just no way of me exiting this relationship completely without losing so much more. Then I think that a friendship is kind of necessary. But I want you to notice that wording that she says here. Why do you want to stay in touch with your ex? Stay in touch.

Doesn't necessarily mean like a friendship of the same varieties you have with your best girlfriend or your childhood pal. Maybe just staying in touch is all that's required if there is some practical reason for being in each other's lives. Now, if it's simply because you, you know, why do you want to stay in touch? I just want to know what's going on. I want to know if they're dating. I want to keep tabs. Not a good enough reason. You don't pass go. You can't be friends with your ex.

The second question that she asks is, are you in a healthy place to stay in touch with your ex? I do think, regardless of the practical requirements, some level of healing does need to occur before you can regain contact, regardless of what is pulling you back together. There is some level of healing that needs to happen before things go back to the way they were.

Obviously, it's going to get ugly if you don't do this because you're not going to have the delineation between the relationship, romantic relationship you previously shared and this new chapter of friendship.

So you'll fight the way that you did when you were together. You'll have the same tension, the same arguments, the same resentment. And so you don't have any chance at friendship in those situations. You need space before you re-enter the relationship. I always recommend to people who share a friendship group in particular, because I get a lot of questions about that, like,

For the first month or so, I really want you to avoid the parties. I only want you to see your friends one-on-one. I don't want you to see them. And I know it feels like a sacrifice on your behalf, but one month versus losing all those friendships entirely is well worth it. Give yourself some space and some time before you jump back in because then you have distance. You have time to process, to reassess, to

to reflect before things just return to normal. You can work through the resentment. You can figure out what your next chapter represents to you. You can reason with why the relationship needed to end without being constantly confronted by visions and images of this person. So once you get to a place where you feel more stable and you've acknowledged and come to terms the romantic chapter is closed, then you can stay in touch. The final question that Dr. Franco asked though,

is what do you want your platonic relationship with your ex to look like? And this is the most important question of them all because it cannot look the way that it once did. You are going to need some concrete, strong boundaries if this is the path that you need to take. This is what those boundaries could look like. This is the rules that you could have with you and your ex so that you are on friendly terms but not friends.

So some of the rules are you will, you know, we will, sorry, not you. We as a couple who previously dated, we are not going to have discussions about our past relationship. We are not going to rehash previous experiences. That is not something that we discuss anymore. We are going to limit physical affection. No cuddling, no sleeping over, no sleeping with each other. That is a hard rule.

We will only see each other when someone else is present. Now, this is a great one if you are required to like be friends with your ex because of children, friendships, work, etc.

It means that you don't have any of that one-on-one time that's going to feel like the quality time you had in a relationship. There is this important barrier between you two. There is an important reason and that reason being other people that you maintain contact. You still see each other in the group. You still see each other around your kids. That is it. Number four, you can agree to unfollow each other on social media. You can still be friendly.

But you don't need to have the same access to know what they're doing. I also think that that stops lingering feelings of like, huh, are they moving on without me? Have they moved on before me? Like, what are they doing? And feeling like, you know, their behavior is an insult to you. It stops that from happening.

Finally, this rule is really, really important. They cannot be your go-to person for an emotional crisis. Yes, that's what they once were. It can feel very natural to be like, oh, they just know so much about me. It's so hard to explain this to someone else. I really want you to do it anyways. They can no longer be the person you are emotionally dependent on. And these are really, really all good examples of how to maintain a friendship when practicality requires you to without stepping into a more serious terrain.

You should also really have a stopping point for when the friendship can't continue. What is the line that neither of you can cross that if you did, the friendship would most certainly be over, it would be done? Is it sex? Is it fighting and arguing over things that happened in the past? Is it when one of you gets a new partner? Is that when you have to agree to cease all contact? You know, you have to have that line.

Otherwise, your behavior can be as erratic as you'd like and there's nothing to stop you going back. There's nothing to stop you guys from maintaining this weird emotional connection. Are they friends? Are they dating? Are they something in between? That's not what we want. The one thing we do not want is ambiguity. We want clarity. Either you are in a relationship or

Or you are friends and that friendship has boundaries and it has rules. I think this is a really good way to go about it. You know, if you're still really struggling in those circumstances and you're finding it hard to move on, finding it hard to get through things and finding it hard to find closure because they are still around. I think you should listen to this episode that I did called How to Move On from Someone You Can't Stop Thinking About.

It's really, really valuable in these situations to get you to that next chapter in your healing journey. Maybe you're at this point of stagnation. You've hit a roadblock, a barricade, a blockade. This episode, that episode, how to get over someone you can't stop thinking about is great for pushing through that. There's also another episode called

Why do we need closure? Do we need closure? Is closure overrated? I cannot remember what it's called. I'll put it in the episode description. Also a really, really valuable one for getting through this period. And neither of those are necessarily about being friends with your ex, but they are about getting to a point of healing and clarity where A, you no longer want to be friends with your ex, or B, you realize that even if you have to, there's ways to go about it that's going to be healthy for you and healthy for your future.

So I really hope that this revised version of this episode has been satisfying. I know that I have completely changed too and I've gone from, yeah, you totally can be friends with your ex and here's my ex and we're going to prove it to absolutely not, don't do that. And it's honestly because of experience and it's because I've witnessed what that inevitably leads to and honestly some of the pain that it causes is

not just between us, but for other people. So yes, thank you for listening to this episode, especially if you listened to the first one. Hopefully I've been able to convince you. Hopefully I've given you some good evidence for my opinion. And I just hope that you've enjoyed this episode.

Until next time, it would be great if you guys could chuck us a follow. Make sure that you are around for when new episodes come out. It's almost December and you guys know what that means. That means 12 days of guests. We have some really cool guests coming along. Make sure you are following us on Instagram at thatpsychologypodcast and that you've checked out the pre-order link for the book. There'll be one in the link in the description below.

It's a great way to support the show and to also, you know, get your hands on a lot of my thoughts in written form. Person in Progress, it's coming out in April 2025. You can see the cover. You can pre-order it. The link will be in the description. Until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself, especially if you are going through a breakup or a heartbreak right now. I'm sending you lots of love. And until next time, we will talk very, very soon.

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