238. High functioning codependency and caring too much ft. Terri Cole
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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.

Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s.

Co-dependency is a word that gets thrown around a lot in the self-help space, but it's also incredibly misunderstood. And a lot of us don't really understand the pattern of behaviors it describes. We also tend to believe that we would be really good at recognizing co-dependency when we see it. We think of someone who lacks boundaries around others, who is incredibly emotionally, sometimes physically dependent on other people, and we think of someone who is

But what about those situations when codependency doesn't look like the codependency that we've typically come to expect? What happens when it looks like being the person that others always come to when they're in trouble, always being the one to make group plans, organize, travel, divvy up the check?

never having a minute for yourself or feeling very exhausted by everyone else's emotions, needs, preferences? Could that also be codependency? We tend to really reward and praise this kind of self-sacrificing and giving behavior and we see it as selfless. Are we really just trying to control ourselves?

a situation? Do we just feel more secure when we are in charge? All of this indicates something called high functioning codependency, which is a more invisible form of codependency, really common amongst overgiving, overextending individuals. And I want to talk about it today because it is a concept that has just fascinated me. And

to talk about it. I want to welcome on the psychotherapist and the boundary expert, Terry Cole, who discovered this phenomenon and who talks about it a lot to people worldwide. So Terry, welcome to the show. Oh, thanks for having me. I'm really, really excited. Can you give a little intro, tell people who you are before we dive into my questions for you today? Sure.

I am a psychotherapist and a relationship expert. I'm a boundary expert in communication. I have been doing this for 27 years. I am the author of a book called Boundary Boss. And I have a new book that's coming out in October. Actually, this drops on the 11th, so on the 15th of this month, called Too Much, A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency. So I'm really an expert in female empowerment. That's really what my deal is.

I was a talent agent negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities before I became a psychotherapist. So I left this career that nobody really understood why I was leaving that career. My father was like, hello, what are you doing? You're going to become a social worker. Like what? Hello? Why are you doing that? And it's interesting when you have a different career before becoming a therapist, but I was motivated by my own experience in therapy.

I just couldn't even believe how much you could change your own life and that it really did not matter what cards I was dealt. Like that shit did not determine the hand I was going to play in life. I decided I don't like that hand. I don't even like this fucking game. I'm not even playing this game. I'm making up an entirely new game, which is what I did. But I was able to see that possibility because of my own personal evolution and therapy and

And then even though I had this fancy, very shiny career that everyone thought was amazing and I was making a ton of cash. And I was in Hollywood. You know, this was New York and LA. I was bi-coastal. It's like I had, it was fancy, but I wasn't happy. And you just get to a point where you can't, like I just could no longer deny that the only thing I cared about was the mental health of the models. I was like, you need to change careers, dude, because you don't even want to be here anymore doing this. But I really wanted to help people.

And so I was in my early 30s when I decided to become a psychotherapist. And I've been doing that for 27 years.

That is an incredible story. Just incredible. And honestly, it is very indicative of a calling. It's just so clear to me when you're explaining that. It's like, oh, this wasn't the right fit for you because there was a higher thing that obviously maybe your soul, your personality was calling you to. And now you've done some incredible, incredible work in this space. What

initially, so you wrote this incredible book on boundaries, which really I would recommend. You also have an amazing YouTube channel. And I was reading some of the comments on a video that you did around boundaries and the amount of people who are like, wow, like my eyes are suddenly open to an entirely new reality. I think that is the power of talking about mental health, talking about psychology, embracing therapy. What drew you to codependency and,

in the same way that you were initially drawn into this space. The reason, I'll just share quickly, like why did I come up with high functioning codependency? Why? Was there not enough on codependency? Well, the answer is there wasn't. And it wasn't the right stuff for my clients. So what I saw over and over again is that I have these baller women

who are CFOs, I mean, international pop stars, like, you know, people who are crushing the game of life. And not all, and then some are stay-at-home moms, which are amazing too, right? Not everyone had huge careers, but a lot did. And I use them as an example because so much of the time people will look at someone who's a CFO of a company and making $2.5 million a year and be like, obviously they have it all together. And yet,

When I would say to any one of those people, hey, what you're describing in your relationship is a codependent pattern. That's what I'm saying. They would immediately reject it and be like, yeah, lady, I'm not dependent on squad. Everybody's dependent on me. I'm making all the money.

I'm making all the moves. I'm controlling all the people. I'm managing everything in the home. I'm managing all the kids. I'm my family of origin. I'm organizing all the shit. So they couldn't see. So I realized, oh, my clients don't know what codependency is. So what happened is they were stuck in the old school Melody Beatty codependent no more. You have to be enabling an alcoholic in order to be a codependent.

And that just is not accurate. It just isn't true, you know? So when I added high functioning to go dependency and explain to my clients what it is when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, right? The relationships, the finances, the feelings, all of it, of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace.

Right. And we need that caveat because it's not the same. Of course, we're all invested in the people we love being happy. Obviously, we're like normal, nice people. When you're a high functioning codependent, it's more than that. It's like we feel compelled to take it on. We feel actually responsible for other people's feeling states and their outcomes. And when I added the high functioning to the definition,

My clients, all of them, without shame, raise their hands saying it's me. I'm the problem. It's me. Not to quote Taylor, but I will. I will. Please do for it. You know what I mean, though, where they felt like that's true. I am overfunctioning. I am overgiving. I do do more than my share. I am doing all the emotional labor in my home.

And I am pissed because that's the thing. You could do that for a long time. Sooner or later, that shit is a one-way ticket to bitter land. Like there's only so long you can do it. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And it was interesting when I was looking into this where just how much I resonated with this concept where you get into this mindset of being like, I'm so, I'm so

I'm giving so much, but you realize that actually all that you're allowing in that process of giving actually are just allowing boundaries to be crossed for the sake of others. And you don't realize that actually you are giving

assuming that you are giving people everything for them and that you are doing what's best for them, but actually they would be better off if you had stronger boundaries. They would actually be better off if you were more able to not just say no, but to have entire systems in place in the first place and expectations around what they could come to you for, what you were able to do, the time you needed for yourself and

And as you said, when you add that high functioning component, I think that also reduces some of the perhaps stigma around codependency, that codependency is

is only about people who just want to spend a lot of time with each other or only about people who enable substance use. It's actually not the case. It shows up in a lot of very, as you said, high achieving women, high achieving individuals who are perhaps using codependency as a way to

stay secure and stay in control of other people's feelings and therefore their own feelings. So what are some of the typical indicators? If you were talking to a therapy client and you said to them, oh, you know, I think that high functioning codependency is something that you might relate to. What would you describe to them? What kind of individual would you describe to them?

Well, I think, yes, I would describe to them, which I will describe to you, the traits. And then we would hit the behaviors. And then we would hit the costs. And then we could hit what you can do about it, right? How we can change it. So let's do it in that order, shall we? Yes, please. Traits. Feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems.

Giving till it hurts, right? Going above and beyond, even when you're not asked to. And a lot of times, a lot of the shit I was doing in my 20s, nobody was asking. And I still felt underappreciated for it. Always ready to jump into damage control mode. Like at the ready for any crisis. We are the friend that you want to be in the foxhole with because we're good in a crisis. A kind of being a little judgy of others because deep down, we really kind of think we know what they should be doing.

Or a little bit like, if Betty had just listened to me and broken up with that idiot six months ago, she wouldn't be crying right now. We can get a little self-righteous. Getting frustrated and angry when other people don't take our grade A advice. Feeling exhausted, resentful, bitter, burnt out. So those are traits. Behaviors. Well, auto-advice giving.

Just giving unsolicited advice to any and all who will listen. Being overly self-sacrificing. Again, as you just kind of described, like doing all the things for other people. Auto-accommodating.

So I want to talk about this concept that I also originated because it was something that I suffered from. I was like, I cannot be the only person where this is happening. So it was a Saturday. I was in my salon in New York City and it was super busy. And I normally don't go on Saturday because it's like a zoo in there. But anyway, I had to go. And I'm sitting there and it's busy as hell. And I'm laying in a sink. I've got my hair mask on my hair. And now the sink traffic is starting to back up.

And every time another person is standing there with a towel on their head waiting or whatever, I'm getting more and more anxious because here I am taking up a sink. But like nobody's doing anything to me, right? I'm just sitting here. I could be sitting somewhere else, but letting this mask sit. So anyway.

I call over the assistant and say, hey, I could move. And of course, she's looking at me like, no shit, lady. I know you could move, but I don't need you to because I do this every Saturday. I mean, she was nice. She was like, we're good. And I had this realization. I was like, this is how you are everywhere, Tara. You're so dialed into your external environment. It feels like you are responsible for

Right. I felt responsible for the sync flow for no good reason, seeing as how I was a customer as well. And I actually just this is only five years ago. And I actually put it on. I put it on YouTube. Right. I did just did like a quick like video and it went totally viral. And people were just like, oh, my God, that is me.

So auto accommodating is when you basically see a need in your environment and you just want to jump in and fix it. You just want to jump in and help. You just, you know, and again, a lot of people will say to me online, I mean, I'm just being nice. Like what's wrong with being nice? And I'm like, here's the thing. If you can't not do it, you're not being nice. It is a compulsion. Oh, wow.

Bit of a truth bomb there. Right. Which is why the way that I walk you through it in the book and the way I walk you through it in my community is that we get into recovery from high functioning codependency, but we don't get cured because this is a discipline to change these behaviors takes time. You know, other behaviors are anticipatory planning. You know, you're going to be with people.

I tell a story in the book about my friend who was dating this person who was just such a jerk. I hated this person. But anyway, but we were going away. And so her partner was coming.

And this was someone who just kicked up my codependency hardcore because they were so difficult. And then they tortured my friend. And it just was like a nightmare being with them. But anyway, I would make sure that, you know, if there were different rooms to stay in, that they stayed in the nicest room so that he didn't complain. And I would make sure that whatever he drank, we would have that booze. Like, there was all these things. And I realized later, I was like, why? Why?

Just don't go away with them. You don't like this guy, but that's what anticipatory planning is. You might do it with family, right? Two people who don't like each other. You're like, well, I won't sit them near each other. Instead of

That's very HFC to try to, we're manipulating and we're like puppet mastering what's happening as opposed to having a conversation with the family member saying, hey, if you two can't figure it out, neither one of you are invited to Christmas, right? Like why not, you know, talking true, just having a straight conversation. But as an HFC, usually we don't do that. We're all good girls. We're all, you know, we all want to be nice. We don't want people to think that we're not nice. Other behaviors.

is just over-functioning. And the over-functioning and under-functioning dynamic is super common with HFCs, where I say...

that I could take, in my 20s, I could take a perfectly capable boyfriend and turn him into an under-functioner in two weeks or less. Yeah, in the sense that you could take on all of his responsibilities. You could plan the dates. You could plan his life, what laundry he needs to be doing, when he needs to call his mom, whatever it is. Yes. Maybe not down to that minutia, but the truth was there wasn't room for

For them, because the mantras of HFCs are like, I got it is one major mantra. We just can't stop being like, I got it. It's all good. I got it. Right. Because we are so capable though. So a lot of times we do got it, but just because you can doesn't mean you should all the time, you know? Or another mantra is it has to be me. It's like this belief that other people won't do it as well.

won't do it the way we want it done, won't do it in a timely fashion. So it's just easier to do it myself is a lot of what we're saying in our minds. So what is the cost of all this? Do you want to talk about that?

I want to talk about that, but firstly, I want to just quickly ask this question because before we get into the cost, I really want to know what's at the root of this because I'm listening to you talk about this and a few things have come out for me. The first one is maybe an element of perfectionism. Like you said, there is a sense that the only way that you can fully control an outcome is if you are beside every single behavior, action, everything.

everything that led you leads you to the place so the only way to control whether christmas is going to go well is if you carefully curate the seating plan you make sure everyone is happy so maybe it's perfectionism then i'm thinking maybe it's control but then but then also like an element of people pleasing right i like what you said before around is it really kindness and

Or is it a compulsion? Like, are you actually at your core a nice person or can you just not fathom the idea of people not liking you or things not happening the way that makes you feel safe and secure? So what is really at the root of this? Is it a combination of these three things or is there another ingredient that maybe I'm missing as well? Well, I think you are very astute because those ingredients, I mean, the foundation of

of all codependency, but especially high-functioning codependency, is control. It is an overt or covert bid to control other people's outcomes. We just don't want our friend marrying the stupid idiot. We want to do everything we can to help her see the light. We don't want our partner getting fired, so we will make more money and let them flounder. You know what I mean? We will over-function to control

protect other people from feeling bad, of course, ultimately it makes them feel worse. So it doesn't really work in that way. So yes, over and under functioning, yes, perfectionism, but control is such a big part of it. And because it has such a negative connotation, people don't want to identify with it, but that is absolutely what it is. We could, you know, you could call it whatever the hell you want to call it, but that, that is what it is. We want to control other people's outcomes, but in the process,

of being so driven unconsciously. So much of this is unconscious. It's like, there's so much self abandonment that goes on because we, we just want peace as HFCs. We just don't, we just want there to be peace in the Valley. We just want everyone to be happy. Right. We just don't want any problems. And so that, that kind of peace, like we won't say anything, you know, what's her name? Cheryl Richardson has a great quote.

That it's like, you know, not speaking up to keep the peace or to war within ourselves. That is spot on. Spot on. I've got another question for that, actually. Sure. Because you're saying control, and I feel like this is my own personal therapy session, right? Because control is my big problem. Yes. Yeah.

Have you found that there is an overlap or maybe a correlation between people with high functioning codependency and those of us who are eldest daughters or people who are the eldest sibling who have perhaps been socialized and conditioned to take on all this responsibility the same way that maybe a mother would or maybe someone in charge of the family would?

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They also have the smoothest cream formula and leave you feeling fresh for 24 hours. Check out some of their best-selling scents, Fresh Cotton and Sea Salt, Ocean Mist and Cherry Blossom. We all know that taking care of the planet means taking care of ourselves and Wild makes it so easy to swap your everyday deodorant, body wash and even lip balm for a more sustainable alternative. Their cases are

100% reusable with compostable refills meaning no more single-use plastics I have the B case for my deodorant and I just need you to go online and see how adorable it is like I never thought deodorant could be so decorative and smell this good wild is truly shaking up the throwaway culture of everyday bathroom products with refillable products that actually work

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And the next day, Morning Joe will give you perspective on what it all means for the future of our country. Watch coverage of the 2024 presidential election Tuesday, November 5th on MSNBC. Have you found that there is an overlap or maybe a correlation between people with high functioning codependency and

And those of us who are eldest daughters. Without a doubt, a lot of eldest daughter syndrome, but also a lot of good girl syndrome. Yeah. So in any place that you are in the family system, because if you think about family systems, right, there's all these different roles that people play. And everyone was from some kind of a disordered family system. I mean, who wasn't? So if my family system, my father was a high-functioning alcoholic.

So, you know, had a great job, a great career, retired at 50. Like, I mean, you know, did well, but it doesn't change what, you know, how he managed his emotions was with alcohol. And, you know, we were raised to be good girls. And the focus, when you have a, there are different ways that the family systems are. In a family system where there is addiction of any kind, most people in the family system are organizing around that person.

So in a healthy family system, it is child-focused. I don't mean child-obsessed. I just mean child-focused, where the activities are around what the children need. In a more dysfunctional system, the activities are around, it could be a designated patient, right? It could be someone with mental health, could be someone who's physically unwell, could be an abuser that people organize around. But you learn how to go along to get along.

You know, nobody needs to send you like a note when you're seven to figure out how to avoid being rejected, how to avoid being abused. Like you immediately know it intuitively, how to be helpful, how to go make mommy's next drink, even if mommy's an alcoholic, because you're a part of the solution and you don't want her to be mad or to judge you or to reject you. So

A lot of times those things make a difference too. I grew up as the hero child in my family system. So that's the one where everyone can agree that that person is amazing, no matter what else is going on. But so you're sort of have it on your shoulders to like make the family look good, right? Yes. Everyone can agree that you're good. You're a winner. You know what I mean? But none of these roles are free.

So all of the family systems, whether you're the scapegoat, whether you're, you know what I mean? All those roles play a part. But I find that a lot of HFCs are eldest daughters or first generation.

or their parents were first generation. You know, there's a lot of that too, because there's so much culture. I mean, how do we have a downloaded HFC blueprint? All of us do, which is basically your relational blueprint. And this is made up of what you learned in your family of origin, the country you grew up in, the culture, the society, your role in the family system, all of these things sort of coalesce, come together,

And this makes up the unconscious material that is in your mind that tells you, this is the way I should relate in the world. Whether it's with the people at church, whether it's with my partner, whether it's with my friends, whether it's with my cousins, whatever, right? We have a how it should be type of thing. And part of this process...

I'm getting healthier. And I walk people through it in Boundary Boss, and we also walk through it in Too Much with different lenses, right? Because in Too Much, we're really looking at what did you learn about the way you're supposed to relate to other people in specific situations and the world, though? Because with HFCs,

It's different than sort of regular codependency because we can get, we can become codependent with people we don't even freaking know barely. Like, because we're concerned about others, we can sort of get codependent with our environment and people we just meet. At least I did. And I see this in my clients as well.

Oh, I'm just listening to you talk about this. And, but you can see me just nodding my head being like, yeah, tick, tick, tick. And it's interesting what you said around it being almost wired into our subconscious or unconscious, especially as children, but also coming, coming to us almost as a blueprint. We all have this capacity and, and,

Of course, the blueprint that we all have as children comes from a place of survival. That's why we are born to be particularly accommodating to the needs of a caregiver or a parent, because we are reliant on them. It's why we are born in being able to chameleon, being able to please others. It's all survival. So

Is that also where high functioning codependency comes from? Is at some point you've learnt a pattern of behaviour that's made life easier for you by allowing you to be more in control? Is that also something that you see a lot? I do. And the thing is, in a way, it's an illusion of control, but it does make sense. And along the same lines, if we're talking about childhood, you might have a lot of people being parentified.

in childhood. So there's two different ways of being parentified. One is emotional. If you have a parent who talked to you like you were a grown-up, told you things about themselves that wasn't appropriate, or shared adult burdens with you about, we don't have the money to pay the lights or whatever, you know, that's one way. It's almost like the emotional parentification. And then there's the actual parentification, like the physical, where you might be making dinner for younger siblings. And

You might be expected to clean the house. You might, like anyone who is parentified, and if you had addicted parents or alcoholic parents or parents with mental health challenges, you might have been like the only sort of adult in the room, even though you were 10. So what does this do and what does it create? It creates high-functioning codependency and the abilities. Like imagine if you're cooking dinner at 9 a.m.

You're capable as hell. Imagine how capable you are by 19, 29, 39. It's like, there's like not anything you can't figure out. And when you have a childhood like that, right, it makes you very, very committed to figuring it out because the alternative is feeling out of control, is feeling victimized, is being victimized. But a lot of those things that were adaptive in childhood, right?

become maladaptive in adulthood. So we have to revisit them and go, does this make sense? Should I be doing all of these things for all of these people? Is this in my highest and best interest? Do I have the bandwidth to do this rather than being on autopilot?

Yeah, I think this is a great transition into talking about the cost because you really introduced this to us. So what does this cost us individually, but also in terms of our relationships as well? When we think we might be helping someone, we think we might be this loving, giving person. I have a feeling that you're going to tell us that maybe that isn't always the most beneficial thing. Yeah.

That's true. Because here's the thing. I'll tell you a quick story. And I share it in the book, but this is what actually changed my life when it comes to codependency and high-functioning codependency in my 20s. One of my sisters was in a bad situation with someone who was doing crack addict, and she was an active alcoholic, and they were living in a house in the woods with no running water and no electricity, and he was abusive.

So, I mean, for an HFC, it's like a five alarm fire every day. And I was obsessed with like, how am I going to save her from this domestic hell? You know, like, what am I going to do? So I was crying to my therapist and bawling my eyes out and saying, you know, Bev, I've done everything. What am I going to do? And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know?

what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it. But do you know what's happening for you in all of this? And I was like, obviously, no, I do not. Please clue me in. And she said, Terry, you've worked really hard to create a harmonious life. Your sister's dumpster fire is really messing with your peace. You want your pain. You want that to be fixed because ultimately you want your pain to end. She is not wrong. That is true. Yeah.

And so do you think it was an element of like in your attempts to soothe yourself and to not to say eliminate, but to fix this like stressor for you? Because of course, when it comes to very close relationships, you feel someone else's pain, especially as a sibling, especially as someone in your family, there is a bond there that is incredibly otherworldly.

Do you think that actually the relationship you have with your sister deteriorated or did it get to a point of her not listening to you? Because I've had this before with people where, and I've learned this with friends where it's like, you can't tell someone to just break up with their boyfriend or break up with their girlfriend or their partner because all that's going to happen is they'll just stop telling you the bad stuff. So you're actually not helping them in your, in your, um,

attempts to fix it? Like you're actually further isolating them? What ended up happening with her in that situation? If you want to share, of course. Yeah, no, I do. I write about it in the book, so I've already shared. So no problem. I said to my therapist, so what do I do then? Like, what are my options now? And she said, Terry, you need boundaries. Because remember, it was my 20s and I was the boundaryless wonder. So I had no boundaries.

And I didn't even know I could have boundaries with my sister. I had no idea. I was like, what? I could be a good sister and do that. And she said, listen, you don't have to let her talk to you about this guy, but you can be there if she needs you. So I talked to my sister. I said, hey, I can't talk about this with you. It's so painful and disruptive for my life, but I love you. And when and if you ever really want to get out, I'll always be your person. I'll always be your person.

And she really understood. She was like, you know what? I get it. Okay. And we talked a few times in nine months and then she called me and said, I'm ready. Are you still my person? And I was like, oh yes, I am. Got in my car, went and picked her up. And the most important aspect of this story is that by doing that, my sister was ready to change what wasn't working in her life. Instead of her youngest sister being the hero in her story.

which is what we're doing when we insert ourselves, when we can't stop telling people what to do. We're literally centering ourselves in that person's problem. It's so, God, that was the hardest thing for me to like wrap my own mind around. I was like, oh, is that what I'm doing? That's terrible. But she ended up finally coming to it. She got sober. She got back to school. My husband and I helped her in an appropriate way.

But she is the hero of her own story. It's not about me. It's about her. And I loved her enough to tolerate the way that felt. Because that's what love is. Love isn't auto-fixing other people. Love is being like, I'll be in the foxhole with you even when you're suffering. And even when I think you could end your suffering by ending this relationship. But she wasn't ready just because I was ready for her to do it.

And it stuck. She never went back with him. She never got into another relationship like that. And that was this decades ago, you know, she's gone on to have a career. It's like she did that herself. And we rob people of their sovereignty and their dignity when we're endlessly thinking we know what they should be doing. So what can we do instead? Right. The cost to us is great to burnout, health, bitterness, living life light is what I call it when we're constantly obsessed with.

And, you know, in our minds about other people and other things, we're not fully present in our own life. And life hits different when you're kind of only half here. It's like half as juicy as it should be. Half as amazing as it should be. I love that word. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. So true. And we're not fully self-expressed because we're not focusing on us. We're focusing on others. And then we have the cost to the other people, their autonomy.

right? Not accepting them where they are. People become projects. Nobody likes that. They do not like it. And I hate it when I feel like someone thinks I'm a project. I want to punch them. I'm like, hey man, look at my life. Does it seem like I need your advice? I don't. Please stop giving it to me. It's very dehumanizing, which is not what we're trying to do. So what can we do instead? Anyway, you guys who are listening, we're like, okay, great. Thank you. I'm identified. Now what can I do? Well, let's hope that you've raised your awareness.

Through this conversation that we're having, you need to take a look at your boundaries. And when we're HFCs, a lot of times we're the ones trampling on other people's boundaries. Inadvertently. We're not meaning to. But when you give someone advice who hasn't asked you for advice, when you just transfer money into someone's account because you're worried they're not going to make their rent. I had a client who was paying rent for her 38-year-old son or whatever it was. And I was like,

You know, she's like, well, just in case he doesn't have enough. And I'm like, this is what I think is happening. Here's the subtext of that. Your son, who's mismanaging his money, comes to you and says, I don't think I can do it. I don't think I'm going to make it. I don't know how to do this. I think I'm a loser. You giving him money monthly. What are you saying? I agree with you. I agree. I think you're a loser, too. I don't think you're going to do it either.

Wow. And did she stop doing it? Yes, but the thing is, she changed it. I was like, the conversation isn't about cutting him off. The conversation is about believing in him. I have faith that you are resourceful. And I know that you're going to figure this out. And I don't think I've been helping you. And I'm sorry, but I honestly do believe in you, which is why I'm not going to be giving you any more money. You're 38. You have a job. You're grown up. And I want to respect that. I want to respect your autonomy.

You know, instead of giving the auto advice stuff to, for people who are really identified, because I feel like most people, if you're a loving person, you just think that's a part of it. So instead of immediately giving advice or having ideas or suggestions, I want you to just start to raise your awareness about how often you want to give advice, right? How often you want to add your two cents. And instead of that, if your friend comes to you with a problem,

Even if you eventually give them your two cents, the first thing you're going to say is, okay, before we get into it, you tell me what you think you should do. Because you're in a situation, nobody's gut is better than yours about this because it's your life. And I'm here to, you want to brainstorm it, you want to spitball it, whatever you want to do. But it's like putting the emphasis back on them.

Because it's the truth. Like you actually don't know what they should do. You can share experiences you had if you want to later. But I feel like it can't be the first step, the first stop on the bus. You know what I mean? Because now we're co-opting that conversation and bringing it back to our grade A advice instead of saying, so how do you feel about that? And then what happened? Well, what was that like?

And then what do they say? Like, there's a way to ask expansive questions. And it's the most loving thing in the world to give people your undivided attention. Especially if it's not undivided attention with the purpose of then providing advice. You know what I mean? I feel like that's really what I'm getting from this is allow people to show you that they're capable of

I feel like so often we listen to someone's problems and we're concocting exactly what we think that they should do and what we would do and how we can help. And have you ever had one of those situations where someone is just ranting and very upset and you go to give them advice and you can just say they just really don't want it?

They really are not interested. Actually, what they want is, as you said, for someone to listen to them. And I'm listening to this and thinking about situations with my friends. And I'm thinking about situations with my sisters where I have just jumped in and been like, okay, so...

You know, I can just pay for that if you want. You know, if you're worried about, you know, my sister was talking to me the other day and I was like, well, if you're worried about that, like, I'll just send you some money. What became really clear to me in that as well was that we could have gone in and talked for like another 20 minutes. But also because I just immediately offered that solution, I actually didn't really hear how she was feeling and my initial reaction to just jump in and be like, oh my gosh, I love you so much. Let's fix this. What can I do? Maybe that's why you're calling me.

I think I realized I was like, actually, no, you're calling me just because you wanted to be heard, not because you wanted to be fixed in a way. That's so good. And it's so true. And you're exactly right. Your insights are so good because you're exactly right. This behavior, high functioning, codependent behavior is,

It limits the intimacy that we have in our relationships because exactly what you just described is what we do. So how we know people is we go, so if you did know what to do, what do you think it would be? Or have you felt like this before? Like when we ask expansive questions, this is when we learn about people. And another thing that you can do that is so helpful is

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The 2024 presidential election is here. MSNBC has the in-depth coverage and analysis you need. Our reporters are on the ground. Steve Kornacki is at the big board breaking down the races. Rachel Maddow and our Decision 2024 team will provide insight as results come in.

And the next day, Morning Joe will give you perspective on what it all means for the future of our country. Watch coverage of the 2024 presidential election, Tuesday, November 5th on MSNBC. When you want to give advice or you're not sure someone's in pain, and even with your sister, you can always say, how can I best support you right now? And this comes back to the core foundation of codependency. You're not enabling them. You're no longer enabling them to

see you as, I don't know, the cash cow or see you as the one who can fix it for them or the one who can plan for them. Like you said, you know, it's agency. Agency is a gorgeous, gorgeous gift to give someone trust, agency, faith. And your own. Because the thing is, when we feel overly responsible for others, our own lives, internal and external, suffer. We're exhausted.

Where you can't do it forever. And people who do, trust me, I see women coming into my therapy practice in their sixth or seventh decade of life. And they're like, listen, I checked all the boxes. We have money. I'm on a bunch of boards. The kids all went to Ivy League schools. Is this how I'm supposed to feel? Because, wow, it's really not that awesome.

And they just say, like, it's empty. And I'm like, yeah, because nobody friggin' knows you. You literally built your whole life checking boxes that other people told you was the way to go, always taking one for the team.

Right? Always self-sacrificing. No one even knows you. It is so not satisfying. It is such a bummer. So I'm so happy that this show is for people in their 20s. Because if you guys start now, you won't be in my therapy office in your 60s. And I can't imagine I'll still be. I'd be 100. So I'm probably not going to still be a therapist in 100. But do you know what I mean? Like there's so much that you can do now to realize what real love is.

And real support means that I'll hang with you even when it's hard and even when you don't know. I'll stay in the foxhole with you even through the uncertainty that makes me so uncomfortable because I love you. Because that's what devotion is. That's what love is, is that I will tolerate my discomfort.

to comfort you in a real way, doing something that makes you feel comforted, not makes you feel like a problem I just fixed. I think that is the most beautiful conclusion. Such a beautiful way to summarize it. And again, if you've made it this far, you are most likely as well, someone in their 20s or maybe their 30s. I think that one of the most beautiful things about having this platform as well and having people like you on is that they're

I think about 20 years ago when there were not these resources. And that's the generation that you now speak to. And hopefully as time goes on, we have this psychoeducation, we have this level of self-awareness that means that you're not going to be 50 or 60 and wondering why your relationships are shallow, why you feel so burnt out, why you feel so exhausted by your need for control. So even if it's confronting in this moment,

Think about how much time you now have ahead of you to really rewire your brain towards trust, towards healthy dependency, and to unlearn some of those maladaptive habits that you've picked up from childhood, from teenage years, from your early 20s. Exactly. And I have a super special gift for your listeners that will help them if they identify with this. So I have an HFC toolkit.

So you just go to terricole.com forward slash HFC or high functioning codependent. And I'm giving you some lessons in there, like simplify and do less. It's like a video and a PDF. I'm giving you a guided meditation, the power of no meditation, and just walking you through things that you can do.

to start on this journey of recovering from high functioning codependency not to obviously buy the book too but i figured i would give you a free gift just to get you going i'm gonna go check that out and please please pre-order order terry's book this conversation has been so enlightening i've already had a look through and it just looks marvelous there is quite honestly a

nothing else like what you've written that I've come across, nothing else that, well, you created this term. So a lot of people do not, yeah. And it's just mind blowing to me sometimes that, you know, it's 2024 and it takes someone saying this out loud for thousands of people to come out of the woodwork and be able to identify themselves and understand themselves more. So there will be a link both to that free gift from Terry, thank you so much, and also the book,

In this episode description,

Terry, you have been an amazing guest. Seriously, mind-blowing. Thank you so much for coming on. I really loved this discussion. Thank you so much for having me. I'm planning to come, by the way, to, oh, you're in Australia, yeah? I'm in Australia, yes. Yeah, so I think in 2025, I've been doing a whole bunch of interviews. And I have this group of women who are like, please come. We're going to do events. So anyway, I think by the end of 2025, I'm coming. So I'm going to come for you.

Oh my gosh. I will be their front row. Front row. And Australia is a beautiful place. Everyone knows. That's the reason I haven't left. It's so gorgeous. You'll get a very warm reception, that's for sure.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you. Of course. And thank you so much for listening. If you've made it this far, as always, if you have an episode suggestion, you want to get in touch, you want to share your thoughts about this episode, you can DM me at that psychology podcast. Make sure you are following along. Give us a five star review if you, of course, feel called to do so and share with a friend. I've already got three friends of mine who I think are going to be getting a link to

to this episode and their messages. So until next time, stay safe, stay kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very, very soon. ♪

The perfect fit starts with an Abercrombie cozy turtleneck sweater. It is super soft. It has the perfect oversized fit for a relaxed but still very chic look. You can also layer it with the A&F classic denim jacket because who doesn't need a timeless piece like that? Or the A&F jeans, which are the absolute best and have that fit that pair with everything. Curate this season's capsule in-store or online at Abercrombie.

Taking care of my body using natural ingredients is an act of self-care. More importantly, self-love when the products I'm using are kind to my skin and the planet. That's why I love using Wilde and their refillable natural deodorant, body wash and lip balm, which are vegan, cruelty-free and use high quality natural ingredients without any nasties. Not only do Wilde's refill scents smell delicious, they're also good for your skin.

They also have the smoothest cream formula and leave you feeling fresh for 24 hours. Check out some of their best-selling scents, Fresh Cotton and Sea Salt, Ocean Mist and Cherry Blossom. We all know that taking care of the planet means taking care of ourselves and Wild makes it so easy to swap your everyday deodorant, body wash and even lip balm for a more sustainable alternative. Their cases are

100% reusable with compostable refills meaning no more single-use plastics I have the B case for my deodorant and I just need you to go online and see how adorable it is like I never thought deodorant could be so decorative and smell this good wild is truly shaking up the throwaway culture of everyday bathroom products with refillable products that actually work

Get 20% off your order with my code POY20. Go to wearewild.com and use code POY20 at checkout for 20% off all products or head to the podcast Instagram at thatpsychologypodcast to find a direct link on my link tree. Enjoy.

Did you know that dairy works wonders for gut health and that when your gut is healthy, your body and your mind feel it too? Fermented dairy foods like yogurt and kefir can deliver probiotics that benefit the gut microbiome. Plus, eating them can help you feel satisfied and balanced.

Who doesn't want that? Now, if you are thinking, not me, I'm lactose intolerant, I have got great news for you because there are tons of foods that you and your gut can enjoy. So don't let lactose intolerance get in the way of a healthy gut. This ad is sponsored by Undeniably Dairy. This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Many people have questions about how to improve levels of happiness. Living a healthy lifestyle is one sure way of increasing happiness. And a good place to start is with your oral health.

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