195. The psychology of codependency
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Hi, I'm Katie Lowe's and I'm Guillermo Diaz. And we're the hosts of Unpacking the Toolbox, the Scandal Rewatch podcast where we're talking about all the best moments of the show. Mesmerizing. But also we get to hang out with all of our old scandal friends like Bellamy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldwyn, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. Well, suit up, gladiators. Grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for even more behind the scenes stories with Unpacking the Toolbox podcast.

Listen to Unpacking the Toolbox on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years.

Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez, and on my podcast, I like to talk to everyone from Hall of Fame athletes to iconic musicians about getting real on some of the complications and challenges of real life.

I had the best dad and I had the best memories and the greatest experience. And that's all I want for my kids as long as they can have that. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends. I didn't know we were going to go there. People that I admire. When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life. Now you're talking about sympathy.

Which is different than empathy, right? Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Dabluqia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s. The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back.

to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. I'm so excited for today's episode because today we are talking about the idea or the psychological construct of codependency and not just in romantic relationships but also in other fundamental interpersonal relationships, particularly our friendships and with our family and

I think that codependency can show up in so many facets of our social lives. And although there is a healthy amount of dependency and very real reasons why that kind of turns into codependency, when it's taken to extremes, when it's uncontrollable, what can emerge are pretty, I would say, parasitic things.

symbiotic relationships that restrict our lives. It is a very nuanced idea and a very nuanced concept and I get this topic requested of me all the time, all the time, so it must be bothering some of us out there and I honestly don't know why I haven't done it sooner because it is such a crucial and a valuable discussion that needs to be had in this decade of our lives and

I also think another reason I was really called to almost do an episode on this and the reason I wanted to discuss the idea of codependency is because I think that its meaning has been incredibly skewed by misinterpretations on the internet, in pop culture, across social media...

And when we use the term codependency, it's often really casual and flippant. And from the research that I've done, I've just come to realize it's so much more than that. So hopefully we can set the meaning straight in this episode.

And kind of dive into all of the psychology that is the basis of this concept and this idea, especially how it can become visible and can become a problem in our friendships and in our relationships.

So we're going to discuss, of course, the history behind the term codependency, how it actually found its beginnings in AA meetings of all places, how it shows up in our lives, how it manifests in our relationships. I guess also some of the warning signs and some of the causes of this experience of codependency, you know, specifically to do with our upbringing and childhood experiences.

attachment, but I also want to talk about healthy dependency, interdependency, and what it really means to rely on, to love and trust other people in a way that is sustainable and healthy and what that means for our lives.

But if you're listening to this with a bit of fear, maybe that a relationship of yours is becoming codependent, not to worry, because I also really want to rehash some of the discussions that we've had before around boundaries and how to separate yourself and someone you may be codependent with and restore a healthy amount of reliance and support between you and another person.

This topic is so relevant for our 20s. I feel like in this decade, we are filled with so many emotions and deep feelings and realizations, but also...

insecurities and quite frankly things that we need help with things that we haven't yet figured out and the intensity of close relationships that we have in this decade be that platonic with our family or intimate those relationships can be such a soothing band-aid almost for so many of our worries and concerns but often when we cling to people in times of uncertainty we

It can create problems. You know, I've had partners and friends who have been an absolute lifeline for me in periods of crisis. I felt like I couldn't live without them. But I think it's important to know when that is stepping into an unhealthy terrain and could actually potentially undermine what is best for us. So a discussion around codependency and how it manifests in the relationships we have, I think, is so crucial. And if you can relate to

well, you're definitely in the right place, I guess, and in for a treat because there's so much fascinating stuff behind the scenes of what we typically see or think of codependency and so many things to, I guess, discuss and explore. So get ready, strap in. I am so excited for this deep dive and the discussion and all that is to come. ♪

Hi, I'm Katie Lowe's and I'm Guillermo Diaz. And now we're back with another season of our podcast, unpacking the toolbox where Guillermo and I will be rewatching the show to officially unpack season three of scandal. Unpredictable. You don't see it coming. It's a wild, wild ride. The twists and turns in season three mesmerizing, but

Also, we get to hang out with all of our old scandal friends like Bellamy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldwyn, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. So many people. Even more shocking assassinations from Papa and Mama Pope. And yes, Katie and I's famous teeth-pulling scene that kicks off a romance.

And it was Peak TV. This is new scandal content for your eyes, for your ears, for your hearts, for your minds. Well, suit up, gladiators. Grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for even more behind the scenes. Listen to Unpacking the Toolbox on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words. Yeah.

That I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between.

This life right here, just finding myself, just this relaxation, this not feeling stressed, this not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things. That feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly.

Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Back in 1969, this was the hottest song around. So hot that some guys from Michigan tried to steal it.

My name is Daniel Ralston. For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. A group would have a hit record, and quickly they would hire a bunch of guys to go out and be the group. People were being cheated on several levels. After years of searching, we bring you the true story of the fake zombies. I was like blown away. These guys are not going to get away with it.

Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like we always do, let's start this discussion, this exploration, by getting our basics down pat. What is codependency and what is the psychological impact?

basis, I guess, behind its existence and presentation in our lives. So essentially codependency is an unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship that is unbalanced, whereby one person has assumed the role of the giver or the provider. There's someone who is willing to give and sacrifice everything for another person, whereas the other individual in this relationship is the taker.

I think the first major element of this kind of relationship is that it is unhealthy. I think when we typically think about codependency as a society, as a community of people who have access to the internet and whatnot, we tend to imagine people who spend a lot of time together or who are really inseparable. You know, you may have a best friend who you see every day and you do everything with and you talk for hours and you can't imagine your life without them.

That isn't inherently unhealthy or codependent if both people are equally reliant on each other or the relationship is what we would call mutually beneficial. You know, there is a balanced level of support and compassion from both parties. It becomes unhealthy and it becomes codependent.

when the balancing act is distributed or disturbed and it shifts in one person's favour. You know, it's no longer even. And this is really important when we consider the second element of codependency, which is that all the relationships that are codependent are seen as one-sided. You know, one person being the giver, one person being the taker.

That doesn't mean that both parties don't actually get something from the arrangement because the relationship that they have struck may mean that each was equally as dependent for different reasons.

I don't think this is to make a generalization about every codependent relationship. You know, I think when we talk about abusive relationships or abuse, we are moving away from simply, you know, codependency. And sometimes they come hand in hand, especially when we consider emotional abuse. But I think most people who we would consider as codependent, the nature of their codependency rests on that truth that both parties are

are receiving something regardless of whether they recognize that consciously. For example, in any codependent situation, we have that giver, we have that taker, and each person has taken up one of those roles. That's essentially the equation of any codependent relationship.

And although I think we may take pity on the giver because they're being really self-sacrificing, maybe they're unable to set boundaries or they're exhausted by their counterparts need to take from them or be reliant on them, they may get some satisfaction from providing this one-sided support to the taker. Or they may feel responsible for their partner or their parents or their friends and all that comes with that, their thoughts, their feelings and their actions.

And in contrast, you know, the taker receives essentially unconditional love and support, you know, patience, money, forgiveness, whatever they need. And they are willing to accept that. I think the term codependent, like I said, is often lobbied at people constantly.

to describe them as kind of needy or really clingy. But it is so much more than that. And it's often encouraged in some ways by the giver and also the taker as well, I guess, because they share in the responsibility and need for each other. I saw it described really well by this person called Dr. Legg in Medical News Today.

And what they said essentially was that a codependent relationship occurs when one person needs the other who in turn needs to be needed. Like I said before, codependency, it's not just reserved for romantic relationships, as we may assume.

It can really take place in any relationship which becomes unbalanced. Friendships, work relationships, family relationships with our parents, with our siblings, with our aunts and uncles, anyone that you have some kind of social interaction with. I often think about the people who message me or tell me about friends of theirs who are absolutely reliant on them for all emotional support.

And they're constantly sacrificing their time and their energy to almost tend to this person. Whereas when they have problems or issues, that friend is never there for them. They're never willing to make those sacrifices. Their friend is completely dependent on them, whilst the other person just has to bear that and either can't do something or doesn't feel right about asking for that reciprocation.

withdrawing from that type of person, someone who is codependent on you,

can be really, really difficult. And we're going to talk about that later. But interestingly, before we jump into that, I think some of the history is quite fascinating. You know, the term codependent or codependency, it actually came out of research on the relationships between people who are suffering from addiction and the people that were close to them in their lives. That's where the term first appeared.

amongst researchers who were studying people with addiction and they used it to describe the almost lopsided or you know one-sided enabling relationships between someone who was struggling perhaps with alcohol abuse or substance abuse and the people you know normally family and partners who feel that they have to give in to that person's struggles and they have to help them

Then it kind of moved its way into AA, Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. And then it kind of became a common term through that as it became more accessible to people. And I guess now it's been embraced by pop culture and pop, you know, and psychobabble to describe something that I think it really wasn't intended to represent. You know, essentially it was used to describe enabling relationships between

You know, where one person is enabling another person's dependence on them or their dependence on something like drugs or alcohol. This actually really surprised me when I learned this because I think like most people, I had a very naive, I would say, understanding of what it was. I used it very casually.

But it is a lot more severe and intricate than that. So now that we kind of know some of the history and what I would call the basic elements of a codependent relationship, you know, that they're maladaptive, they're one-sided, they're unhealthy. I really want to provide a bit of an overview, I guess, of some of the warning signs in our own relationships and those of people close to us as well. Some of the things to look out for.

I'm going to quickly state that although codependency is not something that you can be diagnosed with per se, if you see some part of yourself or your own experience in what I'm describing, what I'm going to talk about, there is a lot of professional help out there for you and there are people that you can talk to. You know, you're not going to get a diagnosis or the person that you're speaking about isn't going to get a diagnosis, right?

I think dependent personality disorder is probably the closest thing that we can get to. And that's essentially describing pervasive, you know, psychological dependence on other people in which someone is unable to be independent and unable to meet their own emotional needs or make decisions and needs to receive constant approval from others. Um,

And I guess that is it's unlike codependency in that it doesn't involve reliance on just one person. But I think that like the general psychological community, you know, the DSM, it hasn't really caught up to the fact that dependent personality disorder and codependency are actually quite hand in hand. And we speak a lot about codependency in terms of addiction, but there still isn't that recognition that this is something that is

can really affect someone's psychological and physical and emotional well-being. So let's talk about some of the, I guess, warning signs, some of the things to look out for. Firstly, in codependent relationships, there is going to be an imbalance of power. If you are finding that you are giving much more energy, time, love,

patience to another person who's really only using you for their own needs, that's probably the biggest indicator. So according to this clinical psychologist, I think their name was Koda Derek or something like that, we may feel when we're in this situation, if we are the giver in this situation, like we have to save the person from themselves.

And we feel responsible for their emotional state and their well-being. You know, you take over their responsibility for themselves and you help them pick up the pieces. In that instance in which you feel responsible for someone else, they're not able to do it without you. They need you. And you're kind of stuck. You're in this situation where you're like, I'm so...

stressed, I've lost my independence, it's a probably, you know, a fairly big indicator that relationship is moving towards codependence. Another huge indicator, and I feel like this is quite obvious, but I just feel like I need to state it for the record, is complete emotional exhaustion, even physical exhaustion. And what that comes from is essentially a

Having to be responsible for another person, a grown adult, to the point that caring for yourself is almost the second priority, which it never should be. You know, the analogy I always use is that when a plane is crashing, when a plane is going down, you will never hear a flight attendant tell you to put the oxygen mask on someone else before yourself. And that goes for everyday relationships as well.

You should always be helping yourself, making sure that you are well before taking on that responsibility for others. And if you're feeling like your relationship with that person is taking time away from yourself, you know,

that you don't want to answer their calls or their text messages because it's going to be disastrous if you feel intense anxiety when they message you or you stop doing what you're doing, you interrupt your plans to see them or to help them. That's a huge sign that your relationship is codependent, especially if they don't do the same for you. I think it's worth acknowledging that when we are in these situations, it can be incredibly difficult to establish boundaries.

Or even feel that we can put ourselves first because we are so wrapped up in our responsibility and our sense of loyalty to this other person. Especially if, you know, they're your romantic partner. Or if they're your mother or your father or your sibling or your best friend. And I did a whole episode on kind of how to move forward from this called, I think it's about setting boundaries and sticking to them.

And I think that's really relevant here. So if you are really struggling, go and listen to that around setting boundaries with someone if it is a really emotionally tumultuous situation. But there is a few more signs that I guess I just want to go through really quickly and which I think are so worth bringing up here.

A lot of the signs that we've talked about so far have been how the giver feels, you know, that you might feel like your life revolves around this person. You don't have your own space. You feel, you know, stuck. You feel guilty. You feel shame. But in terms of the taker, there are some people who are in codependent relationships who are taking from someone else who might have that realization of like, this actually isn't healthy for me and it isn't healthy for them. So these people, they may feel

really struggle with being alone and also feeling alone. They blame the other person for all that is wrong in their life. They say things like, I couldn't live without you. Their behavior might actually escalate in severity when you do try to set boundaries or you do try and pull away. They may use guilt against you or maintain a pretty strong sense of victimhood.

even sometimes placing you as the villain. And all of this is really manipulative, but it doesn't always come from a place that wants to be cruel or come from a place that wants to be manipulative. It can also just be that they actually don't have a strong support system. They don't trust other people. And, you know, the sad truth is that people will only treat you the way that you allow them.

So this pattern of behavior may have developed over a long period of time in which boundaries have not been well established or they haven't been respected. And it's not to victim blame or blame anyone or assign any stigma to either member of this kind of relationship. You know, vulnerability and relationships, even addiction, as we were saying before, they're really complex and they're really sensitive things.

So if you're relating to any of this, either in a relationship with your partner or your friend, whoever, please don't blame yourself for this kind of relationship. I think we are all just trying our best with what we have. But I think that it is really important to understand and be aware of what this means for us. And I think many of the signs are also what we would call the consequences of codependency.

Often, if you are a clinical psychologist and someone came to you and said, my partner is so reliant on me anytime anything goes wrong, they need me to be there for them. I support them financially. They don't have any other friends. But when I need support, they push me away. They're going to look at you and say, oh, that's codependent. You know, there's a lack of separation. There's a lack of individuality of healthy coping mechanisms or independence.

And like I just mentioned, it may even result in the giver often giving up money or resources for the other person. And there is, of course, that element of control which we may associate with the taker. But actually, either party in this relationship can promote this to the point where it becomes unnatural and unhealthy.

So why do these relationships happen? They sound quite unnatural, I would say. I think it's rare to see a full-blown codependent relationship in, you know, everyday life. They definitely still exist. So why is it that some people find themselves in such a toxic cycle? Well, as the origins of, you know, the term codependency suggest...

A huge risk factor or contributor is the presence of addiction in one or even both members. There was a study conducted in 2014 and it found that people who were surveyed who had a family member or a personal history of addiction, particularly with alcohol, they were more likely to report that they had been in a codependent relationship or that they had been codependent on someone else.

And this study also examined whether men or women were more susceptible to codependency. And interestingly, these relationships were just as common within men and women, within both genders. That kind of surprised me, I will say, because I think that women are often...

very much stereotyped as being more nurturing and natural caregivers and really bad at setting boundaries, whatever you want to say. But I think that in these scenarios, really in these situations, everyone is just as susceptible as the next, regardless of gender. The factors that determine these kinds of relationships have a lot more to do with things like your childhood, you know, having a history of

of abuse or abandonment, that's a huge predisposing risk factor because often that means that that person, whoever it may be, has not been taught what a healthy, mutually beneficial relationship looks like. Remember how we learn to treat people and be treated is very much modeled on how our parents or our early caregivers conducted their relationships or treated us.

And people who have unfortunately experienced abuse or abandonment, they themselves become more at risk of finding themselves in a codependent relationship, either as the giver or the taker, depending on what they lacked or had experienced in childhood. Honestly, I think like many problems like codependency, the root problem

of this problem, the cause of this problem is our upbringing and our family or childhood environment, especially if they were dysfunctional or they didn't provide our core emotional needs. And generally speaking, our attachment style patterns that were developed in early childhood are

are really going to influence whether or not we end up in this, you know, this kind of scenario. With all of that in mind, what I really want to discuss next is the distinction between codependence and a healthy level of dependency that we would expect to see in our relationships.

I think I've spent the large majority of this first bit of this episode really kind of drilling into our minds how terrible this can be and how maybe we shouldn't rely on someone or we don't want to be deemed as codependent or too close.

Obviously, that is not true. So I really want to discuss that distinction between codependence and healthy dependence or interdependency before we kind of outline some strategies for disentangling or distancing ourselves from codependent relationships.

Hi, I'm Katie Lowe's and I'm Guillermo Diaz. And now we're back with another season of our podcast, unpacking the toolbox where Guillermo and I will be rewatching the show to officially unpack season three of scandal. Unpredictable. You don't see it coming. It's a wild, wild ride. The twists and turns in season three mesmerizing, but

Also, we get to hang out with all of our old scandal friends like Bellamy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldwyn, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. So many people. Even more shocking assassinations from Papa and Mama Pope. And yes, Katie and I's famous teeth-pulling scene that kicks off a romance.

And it was Peak TV. This is new scandal content for your eyes, for your ears, for your hearts, for your minds. Well, suit up, gladiators. Grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for even more behind the scenes. Listen to Unpacking the Toolbox on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling, as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words. Yeah.

that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Angie Martinez. Check out my podcast where I talk to some of the biggest athletes, musicians, actors in the world. We go beyond the headlines and the soundbites to have real conversations about real life, death, love, and everything in between. This life right here, just finding myself, just relaxation, just not feeling stressed, just not feeling pressed. This is what I'm most proud of. I'm proud of Mary because I've been through hell and some horrible things.

that feeling that I had of inadequacy is gone. You're going to die being you. So you got to constantly work on who you are to make sure that the stars align correctly.

Life ain't easy and it's getting harder and harder. So if you have a story to tell, if you've come through some trials, you need to share it because you're going to inspire someone. You're going to give somebody the motivation to not give up, to not quit. Listen to Angie Martinez IRL on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Criminalia. I'm Maria Tremarcki.

And I'm Holly Frey. Together, we invite you into the dark corridors of history and true crime. For each season, we explore a new theme. From poisoners to stalkers, art thieves to snake oil salesmen. We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, such as Walter Minx, the man who built his own submarine hoping to escape with his blackmail payout under Lake Michigan. It sounds made up, but it's 100% true.

We'll explore the crimes as well as societal forces at play, from unfair sentencing to jaw-dissolving health risks. And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story. Listen to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A healthy amount of reliance on someone else for support, for encouragement and love is absolutely normal. In fact, I think it would be more worrying to me if we were completely detached from others and could never rely on someone else to fulfill some aspect of our emotional needs anymore.

We're social beings. We are pack animals, a tribal species at our core. And what that means is that we crave and we need connections with others. We need trust between ourselves and other people to thrive. So where can we draw the line between dependence and its evil twin, you know, codependency? I think the key distinction can be summed up in one word, mutual.

Mutual love, mutual support, mutual respect, mutual energy, mutual time, healthy dependence. It involves a mutual give and take. It's not one sided. Both people are able to receive the support and the encouragement and the practical help that they need together.

And of course there are going to be times in which you're going to have to support the other person more or they're going to have to support you more than you're supporting them. If your parent or your sibling is really sick...

it makes sense that you may be doing more of the emotional and physical labor for them at that time. That is nothing to shy away from. That is not the point of this episode. You know, life is very much defined by its uncertainty and its ups and downs. And it's okay if you need someone a little bit more at times. You know, if you're going through a bit of a crisis or something else is going on.

that's healthy. It's okay for our relationships to kind of peak and trough and to sometimes need people more than they need you. But if that's happening all the time, that's a problem. I think having a healthy level of dependence on others, like I explained, you know, being able to have that give or take depending on what the other person is going through, being able to call on the people in your life for support and

It's actually really positive. I don't feel like I need to say that, but it does have a lot of proven clinical benefits for our well-being and our overall outlook on life. They contribute to our sense of reliance and

our resourcefulness, we have a stronger sense of trust in our own abilities, we are better at expressing our needs and our emotions, and we have greater self-esteem when we're able to promote healthy independence and healthy dependence in our relationships. And that all sounds really positive because it is, it's healthy and it's something that we can pursue. But when it emerges as a problem is when you are unable to detach, you need something else to

for your support. You know, this person is everything to you. You're giving someone else everything of you beyond what could possibly be expected in any situation. And we have to remember here that codependence is maladaptive and it's harmful to both members of the relationship.

read an incredible article that explained this distinction really well and it explained the distinction between codependence and independence or interdependence more like it as helping versus enabling if you think that your relationship with someone has fallen into a giver and a taker situation ask yourself whether your actions and your responses to them are helping them or enabling them

You know, if your friend keeps coming to you for money but never paying you back or showing any progress towards being financially independent, this may seem like you're helping them at the surface level. You know, you're helping them through a tough time. But it actually may be that you're enabling their dependency on you for assistance. I always try and frame my decisions around whether my actions are helping someone to become independent

self-sufficient or whether I'm doing it for myself because I want to feel better, you know, or I'm helping them to the point that they, you know, they don't need to help themselves and they don't need to help me, right? Like they're just relying on me for something and they're not able to take responsibility for their problems. That's a really tricky situation to be in. And I don't think we need to apply that perspective to all of our relationships, but it is something to be cognizant of.

Doesn't mean you need to say no or that you can't help someone out in a tricky situation. But when it starts to look like enabling behavior, it probably isn't helping either of you. Maybe you're listening to this and you're like, this is me. This is me. I'm in this situation. I'm really struggling. And you've been able to identify yourself as being in a codependent situation and

Whether that is with a parent, with a romantic partner, with a friend, it really doesn't matter. So how do we move back to a healthy level of interdependency and dependence? And how do we restructure our relationship with that person so that it doesn't compromise our identity? It doesn't compromise our self-esteem or, you know, our entire lives, our welfare. Healing a relationship from codependency is

It's going to take time because it's like separating out someone's addiction to you, you know, fighting against your addiction to them. All of that is exhausting. It's also neurologically very difficult because when we do become reliant on anything, we

be that a drug or a person in this situation, what happens to our brain is that our neurons and our synaptic pathways, they become wired towards wanting that person or whatever it is that we're addicted to.

It's a process called long-term potentiation, whereby the more that we activate a certain pathway, the stronger it becomes and the harder it is to break that pattern or consumption. And when those pathways are no longer activated, you know, when someone is having a problem and they go, oh my gosh, I cannot call that person. Or when someone calls you with a problem and you go, oh my gosh, I can't help you because this is unhealthy. It's distressing.

The first step I think I would always recommend is to get some outside help or an outside and objective perspective on the relationship in question and the problem that you're facing. It can be very difficult to be honest with ourselves when a situation is so emotionally charged and at times probably even tense or dangerous. So going to, you know, a trusted friend, a mentor, a mental health professional, a

Based on whatever resources you have, just someone who's separate from the situation. It's sometimes really important because it gives you a logical bird's eye view so you can see clearly why this scenario is hurting you, why it's hurting the other person, why it's probably really good if you get some space.

And, you know, they may also just have some really good advice and they may be able to provide some options to you that you haven't considered. The next step that I think is important is to ground yourself in why you have acknowledged that this is maladaptive and unhealthy and find a way to make your thoughts and your feelings on the matter tangible. I think this applies to even situations beyond codependency. Any problem that you have, anything you're trying to solve,

Making a notes list or journaling to yourself about how you feel, why this is difficult, why you want to change. It's so much easier to motivate yourself or to move through a difficult transition when you have some written reminder about why you need to do something, why you are making that change. This list, you know, might include things in this situation like I don't like how I'm

I'm not able to promote my independence or I'm not able to be independent or situations or statements about how the situation is making you feel and why it needs to change. And that way you can come back to it whenever you feel yourself slipping back into old habits or old patterns. I think the next really valuable step to take, and if you've listened to my boundaries episode, this may sound really familiar, is

It's to confront the person and to confront the problem and have an honest conversation. I know it's really scary. I've done it before. It is terrifying. But I think one of the worst feelings in the world is when someone makes a decision without consulting you or completely ghosts you or shuts you out.

Obviously that's necessary sometimes and there are people who are just really bad for our health and you can make that call based on your own personal appraisal of the situation or the extent of the codependency. But if the situation allows it, I personally believe it's actually quite almost cruel, I think, to leave someone with no explanation or discussion. And you don't need to treat it as a two-way street or like the decision is up for debate.

Just simply lay out the facts and your feelings and why you feel like you would both benefit from this, why you would like your situation to change and leave it at that. Leave it at that. You don't need to answer questions. You don't need to justify anything. And that person may actually surprise you and say, you know, like, I've actually been feeling this way as well. And I want our relationship to be healthier or, you know, I want this for us.

But I think honesty is always the best policy in emotionally sensitive situations, whatever they may be. I think now comes the difficult part, which is sticking to your guns, respecting your own boundaries, learning to say no when that person pushes up against what you have decided to do. It's okay to fail a few times to find yourself.

you know, that separation hard or even painful. Like I said, you're neurologically and physically inclined to feel this way. But if as the giver, you're still answering their calls at any time of the night, or as the taker, you're finding that your emotional state is based on how that person is treating you or the attention they're giving you, and you cannot fight that urge, then

then the boundary I don't think has been fully set or it hasn't been fully respected. So make some non-negotiables or some rules for yourself in these situations. And I mean rules, not things that you would like to do, but tangible decisions you're going to be accountable to yourself for. It might also help to have someone else

who can kind of help you stay on track or who you can kind of answer to or update them on your progress and who can help you kind of question your decisions. Not necessarily make you feel guilty, but make you appreciate the reasoning behind maybe why you're struggling to keep that boundary. After a slip up, whatever it may be, it's also really crucial to reflect on how it's left you feeling. You know, did you let someone back into your life in the way that you didn't necessarily want or

If you felt that you came back to someone you didn't want to be reliant on, don't suppress that feeling. Don't suppress that shame almost. Sit with it. Process it. Think about how you might change your future actions to avoid this situation. Be future looking. Imagine where you would like to be. Be like, okay...

Last night I went over to this person's house and I helped them out even though I know this is codependent, even though I really want some separation. And now I feel really bad. I feel really, really crap about myself. Instead of being like, oh my god, I don't want to feel that, that's really uncomfortable. Allow yourself to feel that way and then look to the future. And I guess that applies for everything, not just baking fear of codependency. When we look towards the future, our progress is going to be more steady.

Obviously you can follow these steps, you can take my advice, do everything right, but the thing is about any relationship is that it's always complicated, it's always nuanced and you know what you're going through more than I ever could. So take it slow, be kind to yourself and I really hope that this information has helped you. I feel like I've learnt a

so much from this discussion and this research, especially about so many of the misconceptions around codependency and how we can distinguish it from healthy dependency and interdependency. It's just such a fascinating topic, especially for our 20s, where I feel like a lot of us have really intense relationships with people who

Whether that is, you know, really good friends or the people that we're dating. And it can really feel like it's just us two in this bubble and one of us is really reliant on the other person and is taking so much and the other person can't leave and it's just really emotionally volatile. So if you can relate, you deserve a lot of credit. I'm sure it's really difficult, but hopefully this episode gave you some sense of the future and some sense of what you can do.

Thank you for listening today. I think that's all that we have time for. I'm really hopeful and yeah, hoping that you enjoyed it. I really did as well. So if you did enjoy this episode, if you learned something, that's the most important. Please feel free to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now.

If you want to follow us on Instagram, that's where I let my listeners decide what I record for the next week so you can contribute to what you want to hear. And thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for tuning in. I feel very grateful that people want to hear what we're discussing and people are interested in these topics as much as I am and are willing to learn as much as I really like learning. So thank you so much for joining us for this journey and have an absolutely lovely week.

Hi, I'm Katie Lowes. And I'm Guillermo Diaz. And we're the hosts of Unpacking the Toolbox, the Scandal Rewatch podcast where we're talking about all the best moments of the show. Mesmerizing. But also, we get to hang out with all of our old Scandal friends like Bellamy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldwyn, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. Well, suit up, gladiators. Grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for an even more behind-the-scenes Scandal.

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