10. The Psychology of Climate Anxiety with Tenaya
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Welcome to the new, maybe not very exciting episode, nonetheless. This week we're going to be discussing climate anxiety, which is a huge issue for us in our 20s. I think this is the first generation to realise that our kids are not going to grow up in the same world that we live in. So I thought we'd kind of discuss it today and I'd bring on a guest to join me. Hi. Oh, hello. Hi.

I'm Tanea. Yeah, I'm Gemma's resident climate guide. I don't know. Guide is a good word for it. Sounds very professional. And for all those wondering, we're recording this across the web. Across the interwebs. Across the interweb. It took a bit of a, took a few trial runs, but we're here now. We're techie kids. We're techie kids. I've got a pizza in front of me.

I've had a few glasses of wine. How are you going this afternoon? Well, this evening. Good. Yeah, I have tea, so not as exciting, but just as good. Yeah. Sorry, there's me chewing. Before we get into it, I feel like I want the audience to know you a little bit better. So can you tell us about how we met? What's your deal? Yeah. Where are you from? Gemma and I met at college and...

we bonded just exclusively over Taylor Swift. Um,

That's literally, that's how I picture you in my head. I'm like, it's Gemma. We love Taylor Swift. It's true. And our friendship is obviously more than that now. No, that's, it's literally, it's just Taylor Swift. That's what we talk about. Yeah. We don't even know why we're doing this episode. Yeah. I can't think of anything else. Yeah. This has not been endorsed by Taylor Swift. So why are we doing it? But I remember the first time I was like, oh my God, me and Taneya are friends.

was when Folklore got released and I came over and did like a listening party at your house. Yeah, you brought so many good snacks. Yeah, and then I ate them all. Well, it was a joint effort. Yeah, we tried. I think we did well. Yeah. So what are we talking about today? Because it isn't Taylor Swift. Yeah, it is not Taylor Swift. We are going to be talking about climate anxiety, which is sort of something that I am...

get, I'm involved with, have climate anxiety because I study climate science and policy at university. And yeah, I have the things you want to know. Well, I don't have all the knowledge, but... She has a fair amount. And also like personal experience with this as well. And like, so like I kind of already explained, I think the reason I'm really interested in discussing this is because

I don't know if you agree, Taneya, but climate anxiety is going to become a fucking pandemic. Yeah, no, I definitely agree. Yeah. And I really think it's just going to be overwhelmed. Like we are facing, let's be real, like mass extinction, natural disasters, the end of the human race. Yeah.

um and yeah I think yeah sorry um I feel like our mental health like you know sector is already overwhelmed and then adding climate turned onto that it's just it's it's gonna go downhill yeah especially as like the world deteriorates even further and more people are surviving natural disasters um

I really wanted to say I read this excellent quote the other day. I think it was maybe even on your Instagram, Tania. Classic. Classic, yeah. Follow her if you want some good climate change infographics that make you feel furious and also calm at the same time. But I read this excellent quote and it was like, essentially, climate change is going to be conveyed through tragic videos of natural disasters we see on our phone until one day we're the ones filming.

And that was pretty profound because I'm sure we'll get into it. Like we've both already had experiences with things like bushfires, floods, you know, global warming in general. Like it's not uncommon at this stage. And it just shows how it's just going to become like increasingly more prevalent.

um with this next generation and like another big reason I wanted to talk about climate anxiety is because like I said it's on the rise many psychologists feel they're unequipped to handle a growing number of patients who are just despairing about the future of the planet because we're not like the systems and the processes we use to deal with general anxiety or depression they're just not really equipped for this kind of like existential dread would you kind of agree with that like it is very unique yeah definitely I think

you know, so much of like mental health response, it's quite individualistic and this is like, which is important and needed, but this is like a massive, you know, worldwide problem that everyone faces and, you know, everyone's going to face it in really different ways as well. That's a really good point. I hadn't actually thought about that. Like so often the struggles that we have mentally are very individualistic and it's,

You know, you can go to therapy for them and maybe work through it, but this is going to be something that's just, like, so much bigger. And, like, not to be existential, but, like, we're not going to save our planet. Like, we're going to try. But, yeah. But maybe this is my climate anxiety and climate, like, dread sinking in. Like,

I just don't think that we're going to be able to fix it. And there's, that's just a huge source of dread and how to like mental health professionals really adapt to this. And like all over the world, various psychiatric organizations and governments, they've all recognized climate change as a growing threat to mental health, not just in terms of PTSD, due to like exposure to floods and bushfires and the like, but just like a general common concern about the future of our planet. Um,

which I think is also really interesting. And like, I just don't imagine it's going to disappear either. And I think I was saying to you yesterday, Taneya, when we were talking on the phone about like the Morrison government.

Yeah. I've seen the memes recently on Twitter. Oh, did you see the memes? Oh, there we go. You know it's going to hit the news when there's memes about it. But essentially the Morrison government, ill, but whatever, announced that they wanted more school chaplains to help children due to climate anxiety or more specifically alarmist climate activism that they claimed had increased mental health concerns amongst children.

Yeah, I think the Chaser summed it up really well. They tweeted and they were like, after the Chaplain incident, we're taking the week off. Like, there's no need for satire because the government's sort of just providing it there in the flesh. Yeah.

I literally love it. I love how they're like, it's left wing organizations, like get up and extinction rebellion. Like they're, they're making kids stress because of their alarming messages, which is like the truth. And it's like, maybe think that kids are actually just like stressing. Cause it's like the end of the world. Like,

And I said it was like, yeah, even like the mental health of children is politicized rather than, you know, actually like addressing the issue. Like instead of being like, oh yeah, climate change is actually a problem. They're like, oh my God, the fucking get up is poisoning them. Yeah. It's, it's a massive amount of blame shifting, unfortunately. Yeah. And like, it's almost satirical. Like it's ironic. It's just,

Like there's some things like this you just can't help but almost want to laugh at. Like just how ridiculous that like narrative shifting is.

And we also talked about how there's been some really interesting recent discussions about whether to add climate anxiety as a disorder into the DSM. So the DSM being like the International Manual of like all clinical mental health disorders and conditions. So should climate anxiety, as serious as it is, be able to be classified as a mental health disorder? And this would mean more governmental funding, right?

for this type of issue, more space for research into effective clinical approaches to minimize climate dread and existential dread concerning the planet and our climate. You know, there's not really much more funding towards actually saving the planet that can be done, but it would help in terms of addressing this from a clinical perspective. Anyhow, the reason I wanted to bring you on is you have such amazing general knowledge. Yeah. What do you start? You have like a, basically like a degree in,

environment and climate change yeah my um I do politics philosophy and economics as well but that's a bit boring and environment yeah environment and sustainability is the degree that I really enjoy and then I minor in climate science and policy yeah and I work for an environmental charity so she's got the whole package guys it's all it's all here

A lot of climate dread to come with that, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Also, fun fact, we're working together next year. We both got grad jobs at the same place. So this is the first of many collaborations today, I'm sure. I'm very excited. Yeah, me too. I feel like everyone knows what climate change is. We don't need to tell you what it is. If you have not heard about it, you've been sleeping under a rock. But one thing I really want to talk about is the IPCC reports.

Can you give us a little bit of an overview? Yeah. So the IPCC or like the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, there is just like a lot of acronyms in like the UN climate science world. But they released their report on the physical science of climate change, which is part of AR6. So it's like they go through cycles of reporting on the climate.

And this particular report, it's just about the physical science and they, the IPCC doesn't actually do the science themselves. They just assess current science. So like they looked at about 14,000 publications. There was like 234 authors and like over like 78,000 review comments. So heaps of science was assessed. It's basically like the best sort of analysis of current climate science and

in the world and they're timed to sort of tie into policy debates so like we have COP26 coming up which is like in Glasgow when they'll it's a conference basically following on from the Paris agreement to try and keep global warming below two degrees and this report will really help that. What are you expecting from this from this conference?

Hopefully more intense climate sort of commitments to reduce emissions. So Paris, there was a lot of change between Paris, which was in 2016 and now. Like we had Trump in, you know, who pulled out of the Paris Agreement and then Biden signed the Paris Agreement back in. And then so you have like, you know, one of the world's biggest polluters, the US, flipping from completely, you know,

like climate denier to really like solid pledged climate action. We had China committing to net zero by 2050, Japan committed to net zero, I think by 20, oh, sorry, China was committing by 2060. Yeah. So just a lot of different pledges. So it'll be interesting to see whether other countries like Australia that haven't, we haven't changed our commitments, whether or not we'll sort of up the game or not. What's our current commitment? Um,

Our current commitment is I think 26 or 28% reduction in emissions on 2005 levels, I think. It's a really, it's a very weak political standpoint. It's not great. Yeah.

Well, who can blame us? Well, not blame us, but who's surprised? Yeah, no one is surprised. The whole Morrison COVID package was like, let's just give heaps of money to fossil fuel organisations and it will trickle down, yes? Yeah, I know. And very much into a gas-led recovery, which is not a recovery at all.

you know it's still gas is still a fossil fuel and it's still terrible yeah it's like our recovery is going to be only for the next 10 years and then well we don't know what to do after that yeah exactly so good luck everyone bye bye see ya see ya in hell but what did the report say specifically because it's been in the news heaps maybe for people who haven't read it can you give us a little bit of a sum up of

Was it all doom and gloom? Like what's it telling us? Yeah, it was all doom and gloom, not going to lie. And it's actually really interesting because every single government, which is part of the IPCC, which is like, you know, I think,

most governments across the world um they had to go through and approve the summary for policymakers line by line so basically the whole report was approved by every government worldwide so you've got oh my god i didn't even know that yeah yeah it's really so it's sort of it actually on some cases it means that the ipcc and their reports um under represent um sort of it's like i think

the statistic is that IPCC reports are 20 times more likely to be worse than what they state, like their predictions. It's 20 times more likely that it'll be worse than their predictions because they actually tend to under-report slightly because they have to make sure that everything is very, very certain because it's all being signed off by a bunch of governments, which means that it'll probably be worse than what they predict, but, you know, we'll just see. But also the prediction was already pretty bad. Yeah.

Yeah. So they said, you know, I think the press release line was like, this is code red for humanity. And they said the, you know, we're getting like extreme heat is more intense and frequent. Heavy rainfall is more frequent and intense. Droughts increasing. There's more frequent fire weather. The ocean's warming, acidifying and losing oxygen. And it's just,

basically saying that our, you know, the Paris Agreement, like all governments worldwide, basically tried to keep, committed to trying, keeping global warming under 1.5 degrees, or at least under 2 degrees, but where this report is saying we will 100% exceed that,

this century unless massively deep reductions in emissions are happening because we've already hit um 1.1 degrees of warming yeah and actually the thing that really got me um when I was I like went to a seminar about this report and it said if we want to hit net zero by 2050 which would keep us on like sort of the low um the low emissions pathways to try and like

keep it under two degrees um we need to have a reduction in emissions the equivalent of what the COVID pandemic did to us every two years so we need to like have that massive amount of um

sort of economic downturn every two years. Currently, obviously there's ways that we can like decouple emissions from GDP. So like if, you know, at the moment it's very tied together. So when GDP grows, emissions grow and blah, blah, blah. And we can change that. But yeah, at the moment it's like we need to have a COVID pandemic level of reduction in emissions every two years. And it'll be really interesting because like I don't think COVID is going away anytime soon, but when it does, which will be probably within the next decade,

And like that sounds like a long time for like us right now. But in terms of like climate emissions, it's not really. As soon as like COVID starts to kind of become less of the issue that everyone's worried about, vaccination increases, we don't really know what's going to happen. But what will happen, I think, is that a lot of governments will seek to bounce back by

Sorry, pizza burp. Get it. A lot of governments will probably seek to bounce back by pumping heaps of money into like industries, international travel will open up again, international trade will become less regulated, like, well, not less regulated, but more kind of open because we're not so worried about border restrictions and, you know, crossing into other territories and the spread of a deadly disease.

So it's almost like we're going to kind of slide back, perhaps even worse than we were before. And I know this is like a weird conspiracy theory, but I seriously think like mother nature, if she's out there, COVID was definitely deliberate. Like she was like, okay, you fucking stupid humans. Time to get a grip. Here's a deadly disease. Well, actually like it was very linked to sort of what we like,

science predicted a pandemic like this. Really? There was an article that got quite a lot of traction in Nature in, like, 2018, and it was, like, our expansion into areas that had previously been untouched by humans. So, like, just building more and expanding population meant that the likelihood of pandemics was basically 100%, and it will be 100% in the future. Like, our continual expanding into, like,

wild sort of spaces. David Attenborough calls them wild spaces. Oh, thanks, David. Yeah, it means that this is definitely like, you know, yeah, I like to think it's the SS1 studio to be like, you shitheads. But though obviously a lot of people died and that's really horrible. So not. Oh, I'm not saying it's not terrible. Obviously I'm not blaming on any culprit. I'm just saying that like in terms of like our interactions with nature. Bit of karma. Yeah.

And yeah, that sounds really bad. And it's obviously a lot more nuanced than that, but it shows what happens when you start to fuck with the planet in ways that like previously we've had control over. And I think that article, maybe I'll link it in the show notes so people can give it a read. Did it kind of basically predict COVID? Yeah. Like from what I remember of it, it was very much like we are going to have a pandemic because we just keep getting

like, you know, pushing into natural spaces and like the likelihood of them, you know, animals in those spaces carrying diseases that we haven't been interacted with, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And that's essentially what happened. So yeah, all very doom and gloom. Sorry about the noise in the background. My housemate's making pasta. She's wearing her headphones. So I don't think she realizes I'm recording.

friend of the show um but yeah but you're like all very doom and gloom and I think this is like a huge contributor to climate anxiety because I think even the word climate anxiety and that kind of term and of clinical reference we've been using in recent years is almost not broad enough because it's not just about the climate it's just about like the general decline of our state of life and our capacity to like have hope for the future

It's so much more than just like, I'm worried that it's going to get warmer. It's like we need to kind of address it more than be like, no, it's not just a worry about that. It's about all those repercussions. I'm worried about food scarcity. I'm worried about natural disasters. I'm worried about pandemics. I'm worried about the ability for my government to provide for its citizens once its finite industries run out.

Yeah, definitely. And water scarcity and rising sea levels and people in like the climate refugees, which is going to become a massive problem. So the reasons really do abound. Like there's, there's so many reasons to be stressed about this, I think.

Yeah, I have definitely like sat in climate lectures and just cried. Like I remember really vividly one about talking about the bleaching of the Great Barrier Reef and how like we'll basically lose under a high impact emission scenario, I think, which is sort of like if we continue business as usual, there's obviously a lot more nuance to it. But, you know, our coral, there will be like no coral reefs basically across the world because they'll all

be bleached and die. And I was sitting in this section, just like crying. Yeah. Wow. That's kind of rough. I remember Phoebe telling me this as well. Like so many of her lectures, there's no positive spin to this stuff. Like there really isn't. There's no, yeah. You can't really spin that positively. And no wonder that like, and I think I kind of mentioned this, but like, and I love that point you made about how so many mental health issues and all

or internal control like the new crisis like in the 70s and 80s yeah the cold war threat for like young kids yeah the cold war i don't even know if it was in the 70s and 80s the cold war we all know what that was um like our like psychological tools and our therapy tools and our counseling tools don't have never faced anything like

just nothing comparable in the literature, nothing that is able to kind of, how do you soothe someone who's like, I'm worried that the planet's going to end. And it's like, well, you know, it's not anxiety. It's like, well, it is like, yeah, it's actual reality. Feel okay. Like you just don't, it's just, but maybe let's talk about some ways that,

we can kind of push through this because, you know, there is still stuff that we can do. What are your thoughts on that, on kind of overcoming climate anxiety as someone who has dealt with a fair amount? Yeah, personally, like obviously, you know, I have the privilege to just sort of go outside and spend a lot of time in nature, which is such a nice way to sort of

experience the world and be like okay it might suck and the future looks really grim but um there are you know a lot of there's a beautiful sunset in front of me or something like that you know to sort of appreciate um but in reality a lot of I think you can see it in what I study and what I work for that like my um response to climate change is really to sort of take action um like yeah

yeah I was like 11 and I was in front of a glacier in Canada which is the most privileged statement to say well probably not but just a very privileged statement to say in a very privileged place to realise how much the climate is changing but it had these signs and it was like this is where the glacier was in like

1902 and this is where it was in 1970 and this is where it is now and it had retreated like two kilometers or something and I was just like whoa so I was looking at it and I was like this is so sad and my brain was like okay well I have to do something um but yeah that just I think for me actually like just me personally action like taking climate action and um yeah it can be can just help me make like feel like I'm making a little bit of a difference and if that's like yeah

you know, divesting my money out of fossil fuels and into ethical companies or like emailing my local MP or picking companies to buy from that are sustainable. That's, you know, that's okay. But, you know, also...

having conversations like this, like doing a lot of community-based, like looking how can a community help, is there like a community food co-op or a garden or a way that I can feel connected to the people around me? Because that's, I think, the way that we're going to get through this. Yeah, and it's interesting because I think that, you know, you do make that point, like small actions, realistic, like it isn't going to make a huge difference. Yeah. But

No, but honestly, this is the thing. It's like, but what you're doing it for is your own mental health. So it's kind of like you can still win a medal here. Like the gold medal would obviously be to, you know, fix all that's wrong with the world, fix the climate, fix greed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like small actions, they do help. But it's also like they help you. And if the only thing you can control is how you're feeling in response to some of these things,

to some of these big you know changes in nature and changes in our climate like that's you really just have to go for that don't you yeah I think you know like we know that

100 companies have been the source of like over 70 percent of the world's whole emissions since like you know the 20th century and so it can feel very small and very um you know useless but again like again I think it's like exactly like you said it's like something that helps your mental health and like the mental health of the people around you if you're engaging in um

anything you know I think we're not gonna be able to sort of tackle an issue like this you know and it's never going to be solved either it's only ever really going to be adapted or mitigated to but like the strategies need to be based around community and like um interconnectedness so lovely um yeah I think you're absolutely right I'm on the same page with you today amazing wow um we should start a podcast

Yeah, just us. Just us. And all we talk about is climate change and Taylor Swift. And if you're not interested...

Get out. Yeah. Get out. What else is there to be interested in the world? The greatest pop star of all time and the greatest crisis of all time. We really getting number one. Having said that Taylor Swift's climate, like she, she's not good for the environment. Like her. I don't want to hate on Taylor, but I'm just going to say her Miss American documentary. There were so many plastic water bottles. And I was like, Taylor, it's 2020 or 2019. Whenever that was filmed, you can use a reusable water bottle. I know you can.

Like, babe, you've got the money. They cost $5. Yeah, I will come and work. Taylor Swift, because you're obviously going to listen to this podcast. I have the information. I'll come and work for you and sort that out. Yes, she can be your climate consultant. Ever more folklore tour, which will be happening next year. Please, please. But also the other thing is like, remember her like when you went to the 1989 world tour?

And they, everyone had those like wristbands that like, where did they all go? Landfill. A hundred percent. Yeah. And so much electricity to run those concerts. God, we can't have both today. But we can, they can be renewable. You can have a totally reusable festival system. It's all, this is what my work does and it's possible.

yeah like I mean that's what yeah yeah I think that with every like major I don't know I love thinking in like um like there's two sides of the same coin type thing like as with you know every single massive this is a very wicked problem but it also means like a huge amount of opportunity um like climate change sort of adaptation and mitigation like

So changing the way we act and also changing how we respond to climate events has, like, massive opportunity in terms of improving, like, inequalities and sort of, like, so, for example, like, we know that educating and empowering women...

like an actual sex education is basically one of the best ways to reduce climate emissions because it reduces population rates. And, you know, so you're educating women, which is obviously an incredible thing and you're lowering emissions or the same as like, you know, if you have like,

Instead of connecting to a single electricity grid, you can develop decentralized grids. So like smaller villages or towns have like renewable energy instead of connecting to a main grid. And it means that like they have sort of more secure energy and more

like better access to energy. So it's basically, oh, and then, you know, obviously like First Nations or Indigenous peoples across the world have massive, incredible knowledge bases about land and sustainability. And so like using or like amplifying their voices as well means that like, yeah, with the problem solving opportunities is massive. Yeah.

And in terms of like even like secondary, secondary consequences of like controlling disasters around climate change. Like I'm obviously specifically thinking about bushfires, but like taking on indigenous and like knowledge is so important. Like as much as we've like developed science and like white people like created like education institutions, like, I'm sorry, we really don't know much compared to people who've been like living with the land for many, many years. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a really good book. Oh, sorry. No, go ahead, please. What's this good book? There's a really good book called Fire Country that I just finished by Victor Steffensen. And it's about, like, fire management in Australia. And, yeah, the possibilities, if we could roll out, you know, First Nations-led fire management across the country would just be insane. Like, you know, and First Nations people have, like...

Yeah, and, like, they've lived through ice ages and, you know, so many climate changes that, like, their resilience and learning from that is just a really incredible opportunity that we can sort of, yeah, combine climate action and, like, climate justice generally. Give me that book. We can do a book swap. Okay, I will. Yeah, I'll give you something I've been reading. It's probably fiction, but still very... No, I love fiction.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, great. I'll give you like a really good book. Something lighthearted. I feel like you need that. I feel like with climate anxiety, you need something to take the edge off. Okay. I can see something else that you've brought up is that climate doomism can be just as harmful as climate denial. And I know we're going to talk about climate denial later, but what do we really kind of mean by that? Climate doomism can be just as harmful as climate denial. Yeah. So this was actually an article that –

Tim Hollow wrote who is a, he's running for the seat of the Greens in the federal, the next election in the nation's capital. Yeah. And he wrote an article about this and I read it and I was like, oh my God, basically it's just sort of saying that, yeah, we can't focus. And by climate doomism, you know, he means like, oh, like when climate change comes, which I mean, it's here already, but.

okay um you know I'm just going to go off into the mountains of New Zealand and live off the land um and that sort of very privileged thing to say that like oh we can just escape climate change um and I think it's totally I mean look we've all had our moments like um I have definitely actually with friend of the show Erin

When the election results came out, like three, you know, when ScoMo won the election, we just did shots and had a cry at like two o'clock in the morning because of this. And we're like, oh my God, we're going to go and just like, fuck this all, you know? And that's such a natural reaction, but. Has to be done sometimes. Yeah. But in a bigger sense, yeah.

like that sort of doom and gloom totally shuts off the possibility of action. And it is also only like, there's no, it's sort of,

It's bullshit. Like, there's no place, even the mountains of New Zealand are going to be affected by climate change. There's no place where we can go that sort of is like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to leave climate change behind. Like, no, we're all going to be affected. Obviously, most people, like, people will be affected very, very differently. But, yeah, we don't...

Yeah, like you were saying, such a privileged statement. It's like, I'm just going to move to New Zealand. It's like, yeah, but what about all like the islander communities? Where are they going to go? Yeah, like to Valu that is going underwater and, you know, it's just like, what? Like out yourself as being...

Yeah, exactly. I've made it individualist. But I don't think it's like, I don't think people say it seriously. I think it is a very, very natural reaction to climate anxiety and climate doom and being like, oh, when situations become uncomfortable and put you in a situation of danger, like you do want to escape, you don't want to create a fantasy and you do want to create an outcome that is because you just cannot perpetuate. So I get what people say. Yeah.

I think it needs to shift. Sorry. Yeah. I think it needs to shift to like, yeah, more, you know, the climate is something that is changing, but we can like at least try and make the outcome a little bit better, like together in a, in a sort of united way. Yeah. I sound like a cult leader, but you know. No, please. And yeah.

That's the vibe that we all need. Right now we have Scott Morrison and that man is just as boring as a fish and as dumb as a scarecrow. We do probably need something. Cult leader would be better. At least we could get something done.

But I do see this like really positive point that you've kind of put in, which is that, you know, there is some optimism. You don't need to move to New Zealand, right? You know, not right now, at least like the world is kind of slowly moving, moving on climate change. Like you said, most major developed countries are net zero by 2050 or like somewhere near that promise in terms of their target. Like the UK, um,

America, China, Japan, New Zealand. I don't know about Russia. I'm not sure about Russia. Countries are committing and there's a lot. I mean, the school strike for climate and Greta Thunberg's Fridays for Future movement, those connected marches were the biggest. I'm pretty sure they were the biggest ever marches

like worldwide movement of protests for climate action. So like things are changing. And even in Australia, the government is really slacking, but like all Australian states have committed to net zero by 2050 and renewables are predicted to like outpace fossil fuels in electricity generation by the end of the decade. So yeah, it's really exciting. Hi.

podcast hi oscar come back from a little walk outside zoe sorry guys a little bit of a divert we like to keep it classy and candid on this show so oh yeah there we go there's my housemate he's he's fucking fabulous he's wonderful um i really want to talk about climate denial and

Why convincing people to make it their problem can be so hard. And I've got like a bit of a story about this. So someone that I know, someone that, yeah, I don't know how many details I want to go into. Someone who was like a close family relation.

Of sorts. Yeah. I've already told you this, so I think maybe I have. But they're like a full-blown climate denialist. Like, climate change doesn't exist. The government's just trying to control us. The government's just trying to send us broke. The government doesn't care about small business. Like, this is all fake. Like, the planet has changed so many times. This is, like, nothing new. It was really infuriating when...

I think I first recognised what harm these kind of arguments do. Yeah, because it is, I think you've said it here, like it's linked to such a left and right-wing divide. I don't really know how that has happened, but...

surely it's like a human issue like surely you like I would always like to think that like this innate sense of like loyalty to the next generation and like wanting our children to inherit a better planet like everyone left and right has kids they love everyone has a sense of humanity like but I guess not I guess it's still very polarized and politicized and

just kind of this split between like conservatives and elites and regional communities and more inner city communities, that kind of stuff. Yeah. So we're like...

Yeah, we're second only to the US in the world in how much climate policy is, like, linked to political sort of lefts and rights. Like, obviously, not everyone is like that. And in Australia, there's... Yeah, yeah. And in Australia, you know, there are people that...

sort of are on either side that do or don't believe in climate. And, you know, there's like places like the UK where climate is a really bipartisan issue, but

Kia, I think we've, we just haven't done a very good job at like including both sides in discussions. You know, we have like, yeah, like you said, the sort of like these activists going on road trips, which is a great way to drum up support, but also can be so isolating for regional communities or mining communities that are like, you are literally...

yeah you're literally protesting to remove my job like what the you know that would be so unimaginably difficult to to look at and you know a response it's so natural to respond and be like no fuck you um yeah but yeah and then we have these really weird contrasts too of like you know the deputy pm uh michael mccormack um was like agriculture needs to be exempt from any like emissions reduction policy because um

At the moment, agriculture contributes about 13% of emissions and that will continue to increase. But then, like, the CEO of the National Farmers Federation, who you think would be his, like, sort of biggest supporter, was like...

No, we don't necessarily want to be exempt. We just want to be included in the transition. And that's like very, yeah, we definitely just need way better dialogue around like just transitions and supporting a really solid transition because we have such potential for, you know, hydrogen and solar and wind as long as we do it right. Yeah, we definitely do. And that's a huge thing. I think two issues here that really link to kind of social psychology, and I'm sure we'll talk about this a little bit later on,

But I think a massive thing that we've seen is the failure to appreciate that Australia is not one country. Australia is highly divided between regional and like metropolitan areas or like city areas. And the lives that people lead in those communities are completely different. And there has been very little, I would say, effort to actually relate

to people who are like, yeah, they're like people in Makai who are like working coal mines. Like that's their livelihood. You really think that they're going to want to listen to you? Like you, you know, this person coming through telling you like, oh yeah, you need to,

You need to get fired. You need to lose all your income. Fuck your kids. Fuck the pleasures that you have in life for a bigger purpose, but also include you in the plan for what happens afterwards. We're just going to tell you what to do now. Oscar's giving me a thumbs up.

Yeah, I just think, yeah, you've given me a love heart. Yeah, I just think that we have done a really bad job at actually trying to be empathetic and trying to actually relate to people who don't come from elitist backgrounds. And that creates massive in-groups and out-groups. Huge. Like, in terms of, like, I think we were talking about this yesterday, you have this in-group and the in-group is, like, you know, the people who are climate changers,

is real and like you anyone who like buys reusable non-reusable straws is going to hell and they get choked by a turtle fuck you and like blah blah blah blah blah and like the thing is they create such an in-group where they're like everyone else who doesn't believe this who they must be idiots

They must be stupid. Like, oh, you know, these bogans, which I hate that word. It's like, no, these people are highly intelligent. It's just that you have absolutely no way of appreciating the sacrifices they're going to make that you don't have to. And when you create these in-groups and out-groups where everyone in the in-group believes they're right, everyone in the out-group is this demonised minority, how the hell are you meant to, you know, create collaboration on an issue that is, you know, at its core a huge collective action problem?

Sorry, I'm a bit of a brat. No, no, no. It annoys me.

It's so like, you know, we're becoming increasingly more sort of polarised and like we don't want to connect. I know, you know, it's so easy for me to see someone posting something slightly questionable on Facebook or Instagram or something. And I'm just like, oh, unfriend. And, you know, like I know that because of social media, there's like there's all these statistics. There's been like an increase in friendships that are like fracturing over politics. Yeah. And yeah.

you know, Facebook like literally actively work to, to polarize users in, in either direction. They've done all these studies on it. And it's really scary because like so much like particular, like, like,

climate denier or climate skeptic arguments are often built around mistrust and we just have this like you said in group and out group where you don't trust anyone that's outside of your group um and it means that we can't sort of connect um and even I saw this like statistic that was like online comments um uh like something written you can dehumanize the writer more than someone speaking in person so we're having these like online written things that's just like

so disconnected and so sort of alienating to either side. And it really does build on these like in-group, out-group kind of mechanisms that we have built into our brain in that like you're going to become more and more trusting of the group that may be feeding you misinformation from either side because you relate to them, because you trust them.

And you'll become more hostile to that group who's trying to change your mind, perhaps by dehumanizing you. Because at the end of the day, like we want to maintain our self-esteem. And if someone's saying like, oh, you climate denier, you're an idiot, you hate your kids. Well, what the fuck? Like, you don't want to then have to go on and acknowledge in the future that actually you were a climate denial, like denialist. You're just going to sink your feet into the sand even more and just try very hard to prove them wrong.

Because, you know, believing what they're saying, that you are denying something that is very real, means that you have to agree with all their other arguments and all their other critiques of you as an individual. So I think that that is something that really frustrates me. And I think it's probably why Australia has the most kind of...

What was the way that you put it? Like the most kind of split on either side or polarisation because of firstly huge finite industries that create, contribute to climate change and also huge splits between regional, regional, rural and then city populations as well. But, you know, every now and again, we're going to come across someone who wants to deny climate change. That's fine with them.

they're within their rights but how do we kind of connect with them you know I'm sure you've met people like this before do you have any tips today to convince maybe like your aunt

Or your, like, ex-boyfriend's stepdad. Yes, I have definitely attempted, not attempted to, accidentally ruined some extended family Christmas dinners over various issues, and climate change is one of them. Go, baby, you'd love to see it. Yeah, but the sort of key to the whole thing is, like,

connecting over something other than the political issue so like you can't

I'm like, I watched such a good TED talk on this and I literally have no clue. Like I hadn't saved it. So I don't know what it's called, but it was just a really good TED talk saying that like just research is showing that there are like people do not change their minds unless they have an existing connection with the person that's trying to convince them of something. So I cannot walk into a room with someone that I'm not friends with. Um,

Or actually, like, I was handing out pamphlets for... It's probably obvious, the Greens, at a recent election. And, like, a guy who was handing out pamphlets for Clive Palmer came up to me and started, like, being like...

it's rained recently climate change is another thing and I was like oh my god and I was like I'm not even gonna go anywhere because you just can't like people will not change their minds unless you sort of already have a connection um and so it's like you sort of need to just find a common ground first um yeah which I think you would know about like psychologists like a shared reality like when you engage with the shared reality yeah it's huge it's like um and creating like

mutual understanding and it's like humanizing the other person it's really big in terms of um getting therapists to trust like therapists use it to get people to trust them as well um and like child psychiatrists and child psychologists it's huge basically it's like we're on the same playing field like we're on each other's team you have to have something to link before you can introduce um

um, things that might be counter to what the person already believes. It just makes so much common sense, doesn't it? Like the best thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a huge concept in this. Yeah. And then like from then, once you have that connection, um, I was reading about like the success of something called moral reframing. Um, so we know like,

just this is a massive generalization obviously but um conservative people tend to be led by values of like tradition um authority purity and loyalty but then you have like um liberal like lowercase liberal um yeah they sort of go for equality fairness um and preventing harm to others um and you know if you walk into a uh a

a discussion with someone who is a climate denier and might be a bit conservative and, um, you know, you're sort of asking them to change, you know, if you go in with a classic, like we're destroying the world, you're asking them to change. Um, it's sort of like change their whole value set, which is like not productive and it's not going to work. But, um,

The moral reframing thing is sort of talking about like reframing the issue to fit their values. So for example, like, like,

more progressive people would potentially connect because they value like care and harm reduction would connect with a statement like um we're destroying and harming our planet and we need to stop whereas um conservatives might more relate to an argument like it's important to keep our air and our oceans clean and pure because that appeals to their values of purity um and so it's like both things and the same message um you know like we need to protect the planet but

They're just like shifted to sort of realign with the values and context and history of the person that you're talking to. It's like marketing. Basically, you've got to sell the same point just in different packaging. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Which is so true. Do you want to talk about this next bit? About what happens if you're not in the in-group?

Yeah, so like you talked about before, there's definitely this in groups and out groups. But you sort of, if you can't necessarily connect, then you need to find someone who's like,

what I think people refer to as like trusted messengers, like someone that is connected to with both sides. And then also like bringing in, I think just most, so many conversations need to be like, you just need to go in like respecting the other person and just trying to like enjoy it and ask questions and like usually

You learn something from every single person. So if you go in with a really open mind, you're going to come out with like, okay, maybe like you then understand why they believe the things they believe. And then you can shift like the way you speak about things to sort of like realign with like the moral reframing, but realign with, you know, okay, maybe they grew up.

by a river and you can talk about caring for like a local river and reducing pollution in that river you know it can be like if you walk into a conversation that sort of mindset yeah like you're not going to change their mind overnight but like small little conversations over and over will hopefully like maybe shift someone's actions so that you know both sides can understand the other better

You're absolutely right. And for those who kind of maybe are skeptical about that, this idea of a trusted messenger, it's used so frequently. Think about when celebrities endorse political candidates. That's a huge part of it. Oh my God. I did not think of that. Yeah, yeah, it's massive. It's a big thing that the US is trying to do in terms of vaccine hesitancy right now.

getting trusted messengers. So, for example, Olivia Rodrigo. Olivia Rodrigo, but I was also thinking members of a church, not just the church, like teenage girl crushes, but like, yeah, like getting trusted members. They also got a Republican. He was like a manager of a bunch of Republican runs for president. So he's very well known amongst conservative communities, specifically, specifically,

Between the 60s and the 90s?

giving them the facts. And he also found that when a family member talks to someone about, you know, getting vaccinated,

or perhaps changing to eco-friendly dish soap, whatever, small actions, people are most likely to go along with it because they trust their family member has their best intentions at heart. So, yeah, it's a huge thing, being a trusted messenger or in the in-group. Both of those are just so powerful. They actually found that if you teach kids about climate change in schools, you don't like –

it's just teaching them about climate change so there's nothing to do with like how to talk to others or how to talk to your family about this it's just like I think they were like maybe let's say year eight or something um it was like middle school in the US um they found that

kids that learned about climate change their parents down the track were more likely to become more um sort of supportive of positive climate action than um other children so yeah children in particular have a massive impact which is why like it's so important too and it's so positive to see massive like climate strikes because a lot of those kids and those kids are hopefully going to say something and you know sort of talk to their family about those issues and

And it's like, you know, yeah, it's just absolutely so powerful. This happened with my grandma. And she had these kind of conservative views around climate change. And then all of her grandkids started talking to her about it. And I think also when you're related to someone, you know what serves their values the best and what they care about the most. And for her, like, I grew up in Corumban, which is like this beautiful, beautiful place.

beautiful community and you know every year now there's fires one half of the year floods the other half um it's just natural like these days and it was like telling her about that and giving her grandkids to explain it to her that really kind of sunk in and i think that's like a massive message that we have today is just have conversations with your family and your friends um even if they do believe stuff you never know who they're going to meet who doesn't

And who they're going to talk to. Who they're going to talk to, making it a more normalized thing. And it's also just a good way to, you know, this is about climate anxiety. It's a really great way to kind of deal with that, knowing that there is a collective involved in this. It's not just you, because I feel like sometimes this stuff can feel like you have the weight of the world on your hands to make ethical environmental decisions. But it is something that we're all facing together. And that kind of gives me a bit of comfort sometimes knowing that I'm not kind of in it alone.

Yeah, 100%. No, I think like just going in and talking to like friends about it can be so rewarding and to just understand that you're not alone and there are people out there that really are so passionate about and there's so much change happening in so many communities and, you know, people that might at first seem like,

climate you know deniers or whatever might just also be the people that can see and have the best amount of knowledge for like how to really sustainably transition you know like there needs to be like I think yeah conversations can be so enjoyable because you sort of understand where people are coming from um and you know yeah like those

When you're talking about your grandma, my grandma, exactly the same, like did not believe in climate change. And then the fires came in 2019 and I just persisted in talking about it at, you know, on just an occasional phone call. I'd be like, I'm learning about this. And, you know, she believes in climate change now. So it takes, it can take years, it can take decades, but I think we, you know, it's, it's really positive when people connect and sort of, yeah, try and tackle things.

Yeah, I think that what really kind of similar was because obviously, you know, this like me and me, my ex like survived the bushfires. We like escaped out of Maria during the bushfires. And it was a really stressful time where we actually weren't sure like whether we were going to like come out alive. And like, I think that's something that hasn't really sunk in for me. Like, but looking back at that situation now, I'm like, oh my God, people died. Yeah.

I could have died. Like we were on in the middle of a road, like we could have died. And I think when I told my grandma about that situation and when things were getting really serious, when my family members couldn't get through to us, when they weren't sure whether we decided to stay or leave, like, I think that was the point where she was like, oh yeah, this is something that my, like, you know, I could have lost a grandkid because the actions of, you know, of me and not caring about this stuff. So anyhow, yeah.

Kind of an emotional way to end it, isn't it, Janelle? We love the vulnerability. Yeah, we do love the vulnerability. And I want to say a huge thank you for coming on. We've been talking for like almost an hour now.

if you have made it this far, I hope you are educated. Taneya is one of the most intelligent and just well-spoken people I know. And so I really want to thank her again for, thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Anytime, literally, anytime. Just incredible. Yeah. Well, it was great discussion. It was a great way to end my,

What day is it? My Thursday. I'm here anytime. Yeah. What day is it? We're in lockdown. The days don't matter anymore. Time is a construct. It really is. But climate change isn't. So yeah. Get out there. Get talking. Girl in a COVID safe way. And with a mask.

With a mask, yes, and gloves and also a hand sanitizer and your check-in camera app. Thank you. But, yes, I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. If you want to hear more about some of the things we've been talking about in recent months, feel free to subscribe. You can find me on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, wherever. Follow us on Instagram. Follow Taneya if you want, and I'll link some of the articles she mentioned in the show notes. But thanks again, Taneya.

Thank you. See you guys next week. Bye.

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