Let’s be Collaborative...with James Cullen Bressack
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This is Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty.

Hey, I'm Shannon Doherty. Welcome to another episode of Let's Be Clear. Today, I am joined by a very good friend, producer, screenwriter, and film director, James Cullen Brassack. I'm sorry, I had to say. I'm also laughing because I'm like, you know, you're...

I'm like, I'm Shannon's friend. I guess I do all these other things, but I'm like, you know. I know, but you do do all those other things. I know, but it was weird hearing you say it. I know, because, I mean. We did Blood Lake when I was 21 years old.

And I turned 32. Wow. I turned 30. So we're talking 11 years. I can't believe we put up with each other for 11 years. I know. And we've only had like one significant fight. What was the fight? When you left me in the middle of the desert. You deserved it. No, I didn't. And it was a joke. It was, but it totally like went a little further than funny. Well, for,

For you. Totally, totally. For me, I kept myself laughing the entire time. I know you were totally laughing. Basically, what I remember is like I was driving you home from set, right? We were in Arizona. And we were driving down this like

road in the middle of like the desert. Back way up. It was for a movie. For a movie, yes. A movie that I was producing that you were acting in. And what was it called? I don't even remember. Something about the devil. Yeah, something about the devil. And I played the devil. You played the devil. Yeah. Some people right now are like, well, that's fitting. And I'm like, to those people, I'm like,

Just turn it off. We have this like playful dynamic the whole time because we were friends and stuff and, you know, we were joking around a lot. We were playing, you know, we rewrote the script together to add some comedy to your role and stuff. And I remember we're driving back. I'm driving you. Like we're in the middle of like, no, there's no like lampposts. There's no like lights or anything. It's like the desert. No, it's like flatland desert. It's where you go to bury someone. Yeah, for sure. You're just like, I'm tired of you driving. I'm going to drive. And I was like,

okay. And so like you, you hop out of the car, I go like walk and you just like bolt, like you run like as fast as you can, like, like fire drill over to the other side, hop in the car and just take off. And like, I'm like, very funny. And then you just kept driving away. Cause,

Because it wouldn't have been funny if my taillights were still in view. I had to make sure the taillights were completely out of view. Yeah, but it went completely pitch black and I'm standing there for a solid minute going like...

Well, maybe I should call her and like no service on the phone. Like look at the phone, like 3%. I'm like, oh no. I'm like, oh, this is where I die. Like, all right. I know. I know. Yeah. Three hours later.

she comes back. Left me there. I learned. It was not three hours. It was like, it was like two minutes. It was like five minutes. Yeah. But it felt like three hours. Yeah. Yeah. Next thing you know, you'll be saying that there was like coyotes howl

There was. And then all of a sudden you were like circled by a pack of like wild wolves. I was accepted into a wolf pack and that was how I survived. That makes sense. It was, yeah. I see your screenwriting skills are coming into play right now because you're literally rewriting history as we speak. Exactly, exactly. But it was funny. It just went a little further than that.

But I think that that whole experience had to go a little bit further than funny. For sure. Yeah, I know. You know, we were there in Arizona together. You were the producer. And I basically said, yes, I'll do this, but only if James is also my assistant. Yeah, so I worked as your assistant the entire time, which...

pretty much just like involved driving you to and from set. And I remember the one time we stopped at, uh, like you, you always wanted to go to this like taco shop. Yeah. And like, I, I woke you up while we're in like the drive through of the taco shop. But it's like, we were like,

driving back and you look up and you go, Los Betos. You like read the sign and you're like, you got like, you got so excited. So excited for Los Betos. Yeah, you got so excited and then fell asleep before we actually got the order out of the window. I know, but then you would always wake me up and I would, I would polish off those tacos. Yeah, you totally would.

But we were driving home at what time? Well, because we were shooting like overnights. It was overnights. So we were like coming home as the sun was starting to come up. Like 5:00, 5:30. It's like this ungodly vampire hour of making movies what you do when it's like a horror thing. I think that was a very fun project for the two of us because we had a lot of leeway. I mean, he was a producer.

And just because our director, you know, trusted both of us. So... Yeah, Perry passed away last year. So we were able to...

rewrite and then write stuff. And so we would sit in the trailer and just write and we were like cracking ourselves up. It was like our own writer's room. And then we like started to like crack ourselves up. But we were like, are we laughing because it's funny? Are we laughing because like we're delirious? And it's like four in the morning. And like, I remember you'd be like, come up with something funnier, James. Like I got nothing. And then we would go to the set and tell them we'd be like, just

keep the camera rolling. Yeah. Don't even worry about like lines and responding to her. Like just keep the camera rolling and she's just going to say a ton of different things. And I would, I would just like roll with it. And then you would throw it like on the spot, you would think of something else and you'd be like, say this. I'd be like, roll!

I'm also wondering if it was as funny as you think it was. I don't know because I still haven't seen it. Yeah, the movie's not out. It's been like 100 years. I've asked Anna's dad a million times for it. This is on the podcast. We're asking him now. Jamie, if you do not send me this movie, but we want every take that I'm in, I'm going to call you out hardcore.

because the listeners want to... Yeah, they need to see you dressed up as the devil. Yes. I actually loved playing. Yeah, it was fun. Because there was just a lot of freedom. It was just silly and freeing and awesome. But we met, as you said, how many years ago that was? 11? Yeah, like a week before we started filming Blood Lake. Right. So I got offered this movie, Blood Lake, which was...

not the best script in the world. It was about killer eel lamprey things. Yeah, one of them goes up Christopher Lloyd's butt. So right. It was pretty sure it was not great. But it was a good paycheck. And I was like, I'm gonna do this. And also, I love working with like young up and coming directors now.

Did you always? Did you always? Yeah. You did? Okay. Yeah. I mean, Christopher Landon, Burning Palms. Like, yeah, absolutely. That was a good movie. So we met at Christie's. Christie's, yeah. But it was like the old Christie's. It was in the old location. Yeah, with long staircase. Yeah. So it was part of this like motel hotel. Holiday Inn, say what? And yeah.

And it had all these, I mean, I don't even know how many stairs to get to the restaurant. Like it's a hike. Like it was, it was like a real staircase. Yes. It was giant. Yes. So we went there and had dinner to meet. We had dinner to meet. And like, I was nervous because like, you know, this is the first time I'm working with like an actor that is like, had like, I had heard of.

You know, it's like, well, like, no, my first time she actually has a resume. Yeah. It's my first SAG movie. You know, like it was first time I was working with. And also I was warned by like everybody that you were incredibly difficult.

So I was like, okay, this is like what I'm going to deal with. Like, okay, like, let me be prepared. So like, I go and I sit and like, I meet like the sweetest lady. And then, and then you show up. I meet the sweetest lady. No, no, no. Like, you know, me and you both like sat there and we both agreed like, okay, this is a nonsense movie. But like, how do we make it better? And we sat there like, you know, coming up with how to make it better.

it better and like how to like add depth to your character. And I feel like that relationship, you know, that we had on that very first day of like, you know, hey, this script is not great, but how do we make it better has carried over into every project we've done.

done. I agree. Because every time I do something, I mean, granted, we do better scripts now, but every time, you know, me and you always have a conversation of, well, how do we make it better? And that's part of why I love working with you so much is, you know, you like to push me and you like to help me find, you know,

much more depth in the project. And I feel like- - And vice versa. - Exactly. And I think like, you know, working with each other, like we push each other, we try to find more and we don't like to just, you know, settle. And I think that's, I love that dynamic. - Yeah. And it's never critical. Like we're never critical of each other. It's always just like- - We were a little critical of eels going up people's butts. - For sure, but that was the eels that we were critical of, not of each other.

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But there's, you know, that idea that people have. And when you meet a like-minded person of like, okay, I have this script in front of me, but can it be better? Can we make something that's super silly and ridiculous and

actually and find like the heart of it. Yeah, find the heart of it. And I think like, you know, I'm still proud of your performance in that I think you give like a very believable performance in a ridiculous movie. Thank you. And you kept it grounded, which I really appreciate. You were a big part of that because you were very much as a director, like, listen, the more like subtle we stay, the better it'll be.

But if people are going into hysterics over these eels, eel lamprey type things, like coming out from toilets and showers. Which we also didn't even know how many were going to come out. It's like we were reacting like, oh, it could be like 50. It could be like one of them. One, right? Yeah. We didn't know what the visual effects budget for that was going to be like. It was like...

So you kept it very, you kept it grounded, you know, as a director, you kept pretty much everyone very grounded. Well, I think, you know, but that was, that was, that was awesome. And the first time, you know, we meet, you know, at the very end of our meeting, which I know you told me that I couldn't tell this story, but I have to, because it is the, it is the best you story ever. Um,

But yeah, no, at the very end of the meeting, after we had this lovely meeting of talking, you know, you give me a hug and you go to walk down that giant staircase and you trip and fall down the entire staircase. And I'm standing at the top of the staircase and I'm like, oh my God, did she just die? I mean, it's like 40 stairs at least. Like 40 stairs.

stairs and you're laying at the bottom of the staircase and i'm like oh my god i i just killed shannon like did i hug her wrong like what just happened here and you just like look up like this and go i meant to do that and like scurry off and i was like okay i'll see you monday and i was like oh my god i was so embarrassed and humiliated all i could think was like i i i like

Like, how do I literally crawl to the car and get home? When you got up though and did that and you're like, I meant to do that. Like in my mind, I was thinking like maybe she did because like there was that whole conversation during dinner where you were like, you know, my stunts in this are like that. I probably do. I can do my own stunts. I can fall. And so I was like,

Maybe she was... Oh, maybe I was auditioning as my own stunt person. Yeah, she was like, hey, look, I can do the stunts. I was like, I don't know. What's going on? That's hysterical. I was like, you know, for sure. It was only until like, you know, day three of filming. You were like, yeah, no, I totally did not mean to do that.

Like when I had bruises on my body and I'm like, oh, that's that hurts a little bit. But it was fun. It was fun. It was fun. So one of the things that I love about you, it was, you know, kind of reminiscent of like Quentin Tarantino that he and a lot of directors, honestly, I mean, Martin Scorsese, right, works with like Leo Leonardo DiCaprio.

all the time. And there are directors that, you know, hire the same people over and over and over and over again. And I love that about you. A, because thanks...

Thanks. You give me jobs and I really like that. You give me amazing performances. But one thing I love about working with the same people, especially working with you, is every time you work with somebody, it's like you're learning their language. Every person in entertainment and in creative art speaks a different language.

And so when you learn that person's language and you know how to communicate with them and you become like that, you become family, you work together and you do this. Why learn that with somebody else? Right. If you have that there and you built upon that, why not continue to build upon that? Well, yeah, because there's like a trust, you know, that's so built that now you can tell me to do something differently.

you know, completely outside of the box and like silly. And I trust you with like what you're telling me to do. And I'm like, OK, this will probably work. And I think that trust went both ways. And when we did Bethany, because I remember right before the first day of filming on Bethany, you had like gotten the cancer diagnosis like or like that week and you had called me and I was on and I just started. Yeah. And you were like, I'm not sure if I can do this.

Yeah, I was worried. And I told you, like, look, like, if you can't do it, like, we'll figure it out and we'll, I'll get somebody else. But I think you're going to want to take your mind off of it and do it. And if you do, like, I'll send you the call sheet. You'll be there. And if you don't show up, I'll know that you can't do it and I'll get a replacement. Don't worry about us. And you showed up and you did it. And I remember there was the one

time because i guess the meds were messing with you a little you had that one speech that you had to give that was all about you know when you were uh looking at your face in the mirror and it's all about like beauty and i mean it was a weird speech it was like yeah it was like a soliloquy type yeah and the way that it was written it didn't like come out and then i think i was obviously it was literally a week or two weeks after getting diagnosed just starting meds my my brain was like

on overdrive thinking about cancer and like, what does this mean? And, you know, what are like the next steps? And then all of a sudden you get this, you know, monologue that really makes no sense to you, right? Because it's a super intense monologue and it was long and, you know, you're supposed to be looking at your face and touching it. And I have a photographic memory. So you do a hundred percent. You're like, you're like that. Yeah. So like the

the meds were messing with you in that moment. And I remember, you know, you were like, I'm not going to, I can't, I can't get this down. We talked about like what the meaning of the monologue was. And it was like, you know, about like lost, you know, youth and, and, and how you no longer saw that beauty in yourself. And that's why you were projecting it onto your child.

And, you know, the depth of that. And then we talked about, you know, that story from when Francis Ford Coppola was doing The Godfather 2 and De Niro was looking at like the baby and he had this whole monologue he's supposed to be saying to his son. And he says, I'm just going to do it with a look. I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to say this monologue. I'm just going to look at the baby and all my hopes and dreams that I want for this baby is going to be in the look.

And Coppola trusted him and he did it. And then sure enough, he did it with the look. Yeah. And so we talked about that and you were like, I'm going to do it with a look. And you did it with the look. You look in the mirror and you started crying and you didn't have to say anything. It was all on your face right there. And I think that really showed trust on both of our sides. I agree. To be able to have that moment. I thought that was...

Like where we really we had done many projects before together, but I felt like that's where we really like click clicked, if that makes sense. Yeah, it totally makes sense. And I think it's actually one of like, if I just take that scene and put it on

it on, you know, I don't have a website. But if I did, you know, I put it there as like a moment that I'm really proud of as an actor, I would put that on because I felt like it was, I think it's much harder to convey as an actor, everything only through a look, the words help you convey it because it's obvious, it's very obvious to the audience, like, oh, here's what I'm trying to say, because I'm using my words, I'm also using my face, but there's words to help back it up.

And this was when you can only rely on conveying with your eyes and like your emotion. I think it's much more. Well, there was such authentic, raw vulnerability. God, yes. At that point in your life as well as in that moment. And I think it really shows on screen there and capturing that. It was, I would say, one of my proudest moments as a director. And you only made me do it like 20,000 times. 30 times.

I don't remember how many times. No, you did it on the first take. What are you talking about? I mean, we've done a lot. We did Blood Lake. Borgor's music video. Yeah. We did Bethany.

We did. We did the double movie. We did the pilot. We did a pilot together. Yeah. I forgot that. Yeah, we did a pilot together, which turned out pretty good. What was that called again? I forget. I forget too. It was about rock and roll. Yes. We did that. Yes. And then we did the Bruce Willis movie, the Mel Gibson movie, the Van Damme movie. The Bruce Willis movie was called The Fortress. That also was a really kind of fascinating experience for me. And-

I just remember this scene with him that was written

one way. It was written as I'm a general and I'm an actual bad guy. Yeah. And he's the good guy hero, as Bruce Willis always is. And it was just me sort of saying, you know, this is how it works, buddy, essentially. And in that moment of filming it, Bruce and I had a very different connection. Yeah, you both started crying and held hands and like kind of changed the dialogue, which became like this very raw moment.

that found like the humanity in both characters and you found it as like a person who was struggling to do like you wanted to do the right thing but you had to do the wrong thing. It created a much more layered character. Somebody that was conflicted and that didn't really want to hurt you know Bruce's character. You were just

having to. And I think, you know, we explored that. Like that was what was fun is we were just like, let's just roll with it. Like, you know, we didn't go, okay, let's go back to that. It's like, okay, the energy's there. Like let's roll with that energy. Let's, let's find that. But that's also, you know, a testament to you as a director, because a lot of people I think would,

it would throw them off and they would say, no, no, no, that's not the direction. And this is what the movie is about. And this is what your character is about. And instead you are, you're like a very fluid director in the sense of you're happy to see what a person is feeling raw in that moment and explore the

where it takes us. The thing is, I feel that you don't want to fight what somebody's experiencing. You know what I mean? Because then it feels disingenuous. So find the...

the genuine moments with the person. What are they feeling? What are they feeling that day? Because everybody comes with whatever they're experiencing and that's there and utilize that. And beyond that, I think that like, you know, a good director doesn't always have to have the best ideas. It's why you're surrounded by so many brilliant people. You just have to recognize good ones. And so being able to be adaptable and utilize the tools that everybody brings you

and say, OK, I can do this, this and this, and I combine these to do this like that's that's the way I look at it. It's a collaborative medium. It's a living, breathing thing. It never it evolves as we make it together. If not, I would be doing every job and playing every role. Right. You know, so it's it's I think it's you know, and obviously I'm not an actor, but I think, you know, finding those moments together is is what's what's magical. I mean, you know, sometimes

It's not even just like the end product of the movie, but the experience of making it and feeling those moments together. And don't get me wrong. I'm always focused, as you know, on making the best movie possible. But that doesn't mean it has to be exactly this or nothing. You know, and I think we've got a great balance of finding that stuff together. And I think the trust that we have in doing that has enabled us to like

you know, try different things. I don't know if I would have been as open to, you know, somebody else doing that in that moment. I would have been like, what is this person doing? But I'm like, okay, Shannon, who I've got a bunch of stuff with and Bruce, let's see where this goes, you know? Yeah. And it just, it just really worked.

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I mean, listen, for me as an actor, I can tell you that I've had a couple of really like raw moments.

you know, I mean, you hope that all of them come across as like raw, honest moments, but personally very raw, honest moments that are captured on screen. And that was one of them. The other one was in Bethany. There was one in like the second season of charmed where, you know, I cry because Andy is dead and I'm sort of blaming myself. And that was, I haven't even seen it yet. Oh, I'm sorry. That was like a very raw moment. So,

those are the moments that I always look back and I'm like, oh man, that's when I was my best is when I'm like the most raw and sort of broken down because there's no, there's no wall. There's no pretense. You're not self-conscious. You're not any of those things. You're just like in the moment. And it's something that I strive for as an actor. So we did the Bruce Willis thing and then we did the Mel Gibson movie. Yeah. And I love your dynamic with Mel also. I thought like it was really interesting seeing you guys play off of each other and

And you guys found moments together too, which it was just fascinating for me because I'm like, wow, this is like insane to watch and be a part of and to be able to shepherd that. So it was really...

special and i remember i called you and i was like i want you to play this role and i thought it was very funny because i i'm always trying to have you play just some random thing you're like you're a general you're a general now you're a police chief you're this you're like you cast me the things nobody else thinks ever ever they would like put me as the wife and you're like no no no you're the police chief i'm like yeah because i'm like your boss dog dillardy yeah you know boss dog yeah that's that's you know shannon's a

Boss dog. She's a play, play Monopoly or heads up with her one time. We'll get into that in a minute. Uh, I know we won't. Uh,

- No, but like you do, you put me in roles that nobody else would normally put me in, including myself. And it turns out interesting, you know, on that one, I was uncomfortable playing a police chief. - Yeah, that's why you were doing the nicotine gum. And we talked about that. - So then we created that, I was like, I need something to do. I need like something in my hand, something in my mouth. Like I need something just distract my own head from telling myself,

- Why are you playing a police chief? - But were you more nervous about playing a police chief or were you more nervous about being against like Mel? Because you weren't nervous about being a general. - I was, I just didn't, I hadn't quite learned how to transfer that nervousness into having an action like, you know, eating on screen.

Which you talked about the whole thing with Brad Pitt. Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah. So I said to you, like, I need something to do. How about if she's a former smoker? Like I wanted to chew gum. And then you came up with the nicotine, the nicotine. You were like,

Yeah, I was like, you have to have a reason why you're chewing gum. And then I'm like, okay, maybe the stress level is like here. And then, you know, you have that thing of like, okay, well, maybe, you know, maybe it gets too much and you want to go smoke. And like, there's that, like, you know, we were creating the layers and the backstory of that instead of just being like, yeah, she's just chewing gum. Like, why is she chewing gum?

chewing gum. And it's stuff that people don't necessarily see on screen, but it's that stuff that you like embody and informs the decisions and the moments and the this and the that, that, you know, it's a living, breathing thing. It's a living, breathing character. And I think that kind of, you know, was fun to do. Well, you know, it's very reminiscent of when I was younger, I studied with this acting coach, Jeff Corey. He used to be an actor. He was a big character actor. He was

was an amazing acting coach and he lived here in Malibu. I didn't even live in Malibu at the time, but my mom would drive me and he would always have me do an entire backstory. So let's say you picked up on my character when she was, you know, 26 years old. Well, he would make me create her from the time of birth.

up until 26 so that character was super layered and I still do that to this day. It's important because the story only exists as a microcosm, you know, of who the person is. So it's like, you know, you have that brief moment of knowing this person in a story, but they have all this life before it. So I think it's important as an actor and director to be on the same page of what that life was, you know, because people in life make decisions

based upon previous experience. So, you know, if you had, you know, a bad situation with, you know, I don't know, like a lover, you're going to be more afraid of being in love, right? Right. If you made the wrong mistake as a police chief and it got somebody killed, you're going to be

you know, afraid of making decisions that might hurt somebody. Yes. But if we don't layer that and have those conversations and find that that's not in the script, then you're just going, not you, but people are just going like, oh, well, I just do that because I do that. You know, so finding the intention together is, I think, part of the magic of making a movie with an actor. I agree. But I do like that you let the actors...

find their way and bring their, a little bit of their own sense. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. What I like to do is, you know, I like to imagine every character, it's like a blank canvas and we take our ideas about the character and we throw them at the canvas and whatever's like sticks for both of us, we use to paint the picture of who that person is. Right. And I think like, that's kind of, you know, the way I look at it and, and the more that

the actor brings to the table, the more excited they are about it. And I like to build off of what they're saying and find that. And of course, I'll bring my ideas too, but I'd like to hear where their thoughts are. Because a lot of the times our thoughts, especially about characters, subconsciously, we're relating it to moments within our own life. Right. And so, you know, we look at a character, we project our own life onto it and draw meaning from there. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I think it's interesting to see that because then you can understand somebody's thought process. So what was that like? I mean, Mel Gibson directed Braveheart. Yeah. One of my favorite movies of all time. There's not a soul that can dispute what

an amazing movie that was and what a phenomenal job he did. Yes, as an actor, but as a director, right? Mostly I talked to him about Apocalypto because I love that. Right. I mean, yes. I was fascinated by making a movie in a dead language. That's got to be a lot of pressure.

It was and it wasn't. The funniest thing is the first time I meet him, he sits down and he's like, all right, how do we make my character a little funnier? And me and him go through the script and start changing his dialogue together. And I was like, this reminds me of working with Shannon. And so, you know, it was fun. You know, the fact that he'll shoot me text messages and ask how you're doing still to this day. You know, he likes to check in about you and see how you are. And, you know, like he doesn't have to do that. You know, how many people have we worked with that don't do that?

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So Puerto Rico with Bruce Willis. Yeah. New Mexico with Mel. And then Los Angeles here with Van Damme. And then Los Angeles with Van Damme. Yeah. And, you know, you work with like what I regard like movie stars, right? They're like our older guard of movie stars, which I also love. And you're constantly being like, I want to work with this one and this one. And I'm like, that's so awesome because you're not necessarily –

you know, chasing like the trend. I mean, for me, I grew up watching all these people in movies. So like, I get really excited about working with people that like, I learned about filmmaking from watching movies. So I got excited. Like I watched, you know, I watched Lethal Weapon and I watched Die Hard and I watched, you know, Kickboxer and all these movies when I was a kid. And I was like, I want to,

make movies and I'm gonna work with those people when I get older. Like when I make a movie, I'm gonna work with those people, you know? And so like that was like really exciting because like I'm like sitting behind monitor watching a movie on the screen and I'm like, holy shit, this is my movie. I'm doing the thing I said. Yeah. So it's like, it's, you know, it's like I'm a little, I'm a kid in a candy store. I get to work with the people that like inspired me to want to make movies, you know? And you got started because your dad was in the business. Well, I wouldn't say I got started

Because of that, I think I gravitated towards it. But like my dad never hired me or made introductions or gave me a job. But I grew a passion for it because, you know, he...

like he was a writer and I was very passionate about film. And when he got very sick, when I was younger and he was like bedridden, he was having liver failure at the time. And, you know, before that he was like my baseball coach, all this stuff. But all we could do was like watch movies. And so we would watch movies and he would like pause the movie and ask me questions about it. And he'd like throw on stuff like, you know, the Maltese Falcon. And then like, you know, he'd, you know, be like, why is Humphrey Bogart's hand shaking?

You know, he paused the movie and asked me. And I'm like, at the time, I thought he was just, you know, trying to make sure I was paying attention. I was like a little kid. But then I started to realize, no, he was trying to get me to analyze why an actor is doing a certain thing, why cameras moving a certain way, what's actually going on beyond what like the surface level of the movie. And I think that was really, you know, special. So, you know, I guess that was my film school.

But I also was the kid that would like make short films about why I didn't want to do the book report instead of doing the book report. Of course. Because I was like, nah, I don't need that. You know, I remember my mom was telling me a story where she was like, you know, I was failing out of chemistry and she was like, you know, you're going to fail out of chemistry. And I was like, mom, don't worry about it. I'm not going to need chemistry when I'm making movies.

You were that confident. I was in hell or high water. Yeah, exactly. I'm failing upwards. But you were that guy that's truly a workaholic. I think you're the happiest when you're prepping and then on a movie set. It's where I feel like the most me.

if that makes sense. But I mean, I feel like you feel the most you when you're working too. I definitely do. You definitely are not the type that can sit like idle. I mean, look, you're doing a podcast. You're like, I'm doing something. Yeah. You're like, you're always doing something, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I think sitting idle just gives me too much time to examine and examine and examine. And then there's nothing good is going to come out of that at the end of the day. We've all trained. We both trained our minds to be analytical. And so if we spend too much time with nothing to analyze, we're going to analyze ourselves.

So it's like, nah, don't do that. Let me do other stuff. And I already analyze myself to a certain degree. Like I'm pretty hard on myself. So if I have too much time to really, really, really do it, I'm going to crawl up into a fetal position. You're too hard on yourself sometimes. That's why I've always said that if you're going to be your toughest critic, you've also got to be your biggest cheerleader.

You're amazing, you've done so many amazing things. And every time me and you talk, I just wanna remind you of that. We touched on it briefly in the beginning, but we have this amazing relationship of working together. And the first time I was gonna work with you, I was warned about you being difficult and you weren't. - Yeah, I think that's still there, right? So maybe that's probably why I'm so hard on myself. And I definitely have not gotten the whole cheerleading part down.

Like being my own cheerleader has been a tough one for me that I have not mastered. And yeah, you know, you hear a story and I, and I hear this from a lot of people or I used to hear it from a lot of people, um,

of, oh, I was warned about you and I was told that you're difficult or you're this. And it's so hard for me to realize that there's a whole narrative and agenda that's out there about me that has almost nothing to do with me. It's not you at all. And I mean, that must be hard to deal with. As you know, I'm pretty sensitive and I tend to take a lot of things personal. And it hurts me when

It hurts me knowing that someone said to you that I'm difficult. It hurts me that there's, you know, something out there about me that is not true or isn't 100% of the truth. Or there's, you know, two sides to every story. There's this, there's that. You know, I dealt with it this morning. Like I was in a super bad mood today, as you know. I remember when I got here. Yeah, because there are, you know, people who they want the answers from me on this podcast. They want me to be clear about things, but then they don't actually want

The truth, that didn't fit into like their idea of what the truth should be. I'm getting better. Like the older I get, and I think also cancer has really changed my perspective because now I'm a lot more like, oh my God, like life is way too short. And I can't worry about like the random 10 people that are pissed that I'm saying something. I've got to worry about like, am I being honest to me?

But when you got told like, oof, you know, just warning you, like she's really difficult. Then I pushed you down the stairs. And then you pushed me down the stairs. No, I'm joking. Just to show me who was boss. But you still went forward with working with me. I mean, I was 21. So I was, you know, I was like, hey, I'll risk it. But, you know. I'm throwing the dice. Yeah, I'm rolling the dice. But, you know.

I mean, it must be difficult living in that shadow, especially because regardless of whether it's true or not, any of these events happened so long, like a lifetime ago at this point. So it's really, I think, sad to deal with

Because you're such a kind, creative, loving person and you're a creative powerhouse and really able to tap into raw emotion and really you give it your all. And so the fact that anybody would question whether they should work with you over something that happened before

So long ago is is is is foolish. It's crazy. I mean, you know, I have my own opinions I don't think you did any of those things but but regardless it's it's even if even if it did it's so long ago that it's ridiculous Yeah, I mean listen, there's definitely some that I did like absolutely I take full accountability for anything that I did but You're right. Like I'm sorry

how can a woman be persecuted for something she did when she was 20 years old? You know, like, and that, it definitely followed me or when I was 18, it followed me.

my, you know, my entire career. And it, by the way, it still follows me to this day. You know, working together and stuff like we've been working together during your cancer and so many people you've had to voice that you are still happy to work and able to work. Yeah. Because people write off, you know, oh, she has cancer. She's this. She can't, you know, she can't do it. And I mean, you can. If anything, you're more in touch with your emotions. You know, I think,

It's a weird experience to have people reach out to me when we're so close and I feel like almost publicly so close and have people ask me. If we're dating? No, not if we're... Well, that too. Because we get asked that all the time. Yeah. But regardless, I think the funniest thing... It's official. I'm a cougar. Yeah, there you go. It's robbing the cradle. Yeah.

I think the thing that's difficult to deal with is having people reach out and say, like, you know, is she...

either is she able to work? I'll get those questions or like stuff like, you know, like what she liked to deal with. And like, if I'm getting those questions, like what, what are you dealing with? And, or are you not even getting those questions because like, they don't even have the guts to talk to you. So I'm not even getting those questions. Exactly. So you're not even there to defend yourself in these rooms, which is, I think, you know, an unfair thing because you know, you're able to work and you're easy to work with.

100%. But it was also like a different day and age, right? When I got that reputation, when I first supposedly earned it, like earned in quotation marks, it was a different day and age. Like women weren't allowed to speak out. Yeah, I feel like you've been a casualty of that because look at how has nobody supported you as all of these women's rights things have been pushed now, you know, like so much further. You were an opinionated, you know,

woman who was working very hard, who was gaining fame. And like, you know, I understand how somebody could be threatened, you know, in that regard. Like somebody who's insecure, if you came to them and were like, hey, what do you think I try this or this with the character? They might be like super threatened by that, you know? Like, so I understand, but it's part of the collaborative process. That's all their problem, not your problem. You know what I mean? And I think that's, I think it's unfair that that has not

been reversed, you know, and people aren't going like, wow, we need to actually cut Shannon some slack here and think about that. I think it's a really unfair situation. Thanks. I'm over it. I'm so over it. I mean, I just like, you know, I've been chasing that for so long, that like reputation and trying to prove myself that eventually I think you just go, what?

why? Like, what am I doing? And what is it all for? That's a healthy response though. Like you shouldn't have to prove yourself. Listen, that might not all be true if it weren't, you know, like I get to still be creative as an actor and go on to sets because I get to work with you. You know, like you've literally, one of the few people that have hired me over the last,

11 years, right? Like there's been a few Kevin Smith, like, you know, I did the Heather's reboot. There are some, but you have consistently like hired, rehired, hired, rehired me almost to the point where I wonder if you regret it because you're

Now I call you and I'm like, oh, I hear you're doing another movie. Was my part in it? Like the latest one. I'm not going to say who's in it. And I was like, there better be a part for me, James. The latest one. And when you read the script, you go, there's not a good enough part for me. You don't want to do this one.

You've said that to me. Well, I said, yeah, I can't do this one. There's not a good enough part for Shannon in this. And I'm like, oh, I can find one. You can find one. Just write it. I'm going to play every role. Just write it bigger. Make it bigger. Yeah. But it doesn't make sense. I'm like, you can do it, James. I believe in you. See,

She doesn't actually call me and tell me not to do a movie. I'm just some of this is sarcasm and taken out of context on a podcast. So I just want to be very clear. Oh, God, I can't wait for the trolls to get a hold of this. So funny. Speaking of our next movie. No, I'm kidding. Shannon, speaking of, have you ever played the game Heads Up?

So there's this game Heads Up where you guess things. So it's on the phone, yeah. And you turn it downwards anytime you get the thing right to see how many points you could rack up. So I got like a bazillion points on it. I did really well. And then Shannon had to go second. And anytime she would guess something, it would be wrong. And she'd go, no, no, no, it's right. And she did it. And then she goes, oh, I beat you. I had a higher point score. And I was like, all you did was go like this. You didn't even guess things. It's true. It's so true. I don't know.

Oh my god, I'm so competitive. She's like, but the score says I won. And I was like, you literally just went like this. I am... I mean, my brother, like, growing up playing... Sean? Sean, my brother Sean. Growing up playing games, he was, like, horrified to play any games with me because I...

I had to win. I just, I had to win. Yeah. It was like a real thing. No, it's true. I'm remembering your birthday. Oh, my murder mystery birthday. The murder mystery party where I figured it out and you literally switched teams to go onto my team because you're like, oh wait, he does figure it. I knew you had it figured out. Yeah, so you're like, I'm on his team now and then you're like, I got it right.

- 'Cause you were just, it was the way that you were walking around the house. - Yeah. - You were very confident, but you also did what everybody was supposed to do. So we had a murder mystery here at my house in Malibu for my last birthday. And everybody got divided into teams.

And so you're supposed to go up and ask each group questions and then the questions give you clues. And James was doing that. I was, I don't know, I guess I just thought that I could figure it out without even asking anybody anything. You forgot the assignment. I forgot the assignment. I was socializing and, you know, but then I saw James stop talking to everybody and he just

He had this like little smirk on his face. And I knew in that instant that he had it all figured out. And so, yeah, I went to him. I was like, James, it's my birthday.

It's my birthday. I want to know the answer right now. And he told me and we won. Yeah, we did. We did. No, thanks to me. No, I told her and Shannon, instead of winning, then went around telling everybody what it was and said that she'd figured it out. So everyone won. I did not do that. Everyone won. Everyone won.

- No, it was Adam, Dana and I that got the little certificates. - Right, right, I didn't get this. Oh, you just stole my thing. I didn't win. - Yeah, you didn't win. My team won. - How did I not win? - I don't know. I think you said that you didn't care.

Oh, yeah. I remember you being like, I don't care. Just take it and give it to your team. And I was like, oh, and I felt bad for your team member. It was your brother. It was your brother. I was on with Sean and Nan. Oh, my God. That's hysterical. But it was fun. It was like something different to do. It was fun. So I'm curious, like, because, you know, you and I've obviously been friends for 11 years and we've been through a lot together and cancer. Like, how was that?

Because I know that it's as hard as it is on me, it's also extremely hard on the other people in my life. You know, it's... I get asked about it a lot. Everybody asks me for like updates of how you are and stuff. And it's one of those things of like, sometimes I feel... Because we don't really talk about it. No. I mean, that's like... But I feel like...

We don't talk about it, not because I don't want to know about it, but because I feel like because I don't see you on a daily basis, when we see each other, like I'm kind of your escape from dealing with it. You're dealing with this diagnosis at all times. And so like, I try to not make...

our time together about that. Yeah. Because I feel like you need that time away from that. It wasn't that long ago after like one of my infusions and I get really sick after the infusions for like a couple of days. And you came over, you were like, listen, we don't have to talk about it. I'm just going to come over. You can sleep on the couch. I'm just going to sit next to you, watch TV. And you did. And it was actually, it was really nice because it was like, there was, again, there was no conversation about it.

You were just there and you didn't recoil in horror when I threw up. Like you were okay with it. We watched jury duty and, uh, and I kept giving you saltines. You were very excited about, but, um, you know, obviously I care about what's going on with you and, you know, it's, it's a lot and you're so brave and you're dealing with so much, but you know, everybody around you is talking to you about that, you know? And I just feel like,

you know if you wanted to talk to me about it you'd call me and talk to me i also think that like we have a sort of bond and a mutual camaraderie because we both lost our fathers yeah and you were like me extremely close with your dad we lost our fathers for the same thing yeah yeah both you know kidney dialysis yeah you lost your father like right before we met right

I think so. And then I lost my dad four years ago. And I remember we were talking. We talked a lot about that stuff, too. We dealt with that. We did. We did. So I just think that anybody who I don't know your relationship with your parents. Like, I love that. I have a deep love and respect for someone who cares so deeply for their own family.

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To touch on the cancer thing, one thing that is hard because we don't talk about it, because it's very hard seeing the updates of how you're doing

in like tabloids versus hearing about it from you. Because anytime something comes out. But I always like, but that's just, you know, it's a regurgitation. Of course. Of something that, you know, I've said three months prior or six months prior. It's, you know, them just putting a new spin on it. Right. Or somebody selling a story or whatever. But like. The weirdest thing about that is when that happens, whenever a story comes out, like the people want any of the things that come out,

People don't like text me and say hey how Shannon doing everybody just sends like 40 people that just send me the article I haven't seen it before you know my brother got the same thing like a bunch of people sending him the article and then like calling him and I was like Sean it's it's what I told you about When we were in Texas. Yeah, like, you know, so I

You know, someone who has cared for a loved one that was sick, like what are the challenges in that for you or that were there for you and how, how has that impacted you? And maybe it hasn't, like, did it impact you in the way that you deal with people? Has it impacted on a personal level? Has it impacted your work at all? I mean, I think that it's definitely impacted my work. As, as you know, when you lose somebody that you love, there's a piece of you that

dies with them yep and it's and it's gone you know and and you know that pain exists and and it never goes away because it's the reminder of who they were how important they were to

Like, I mean, I find myself still randomly hearing a song that'll make me cry. And I'll think about my dad. It's overwhelming to deal with. And it's that piece of you is missing. And, you know, there's whenever something exciting happens, you want to call and talk to them. When something sad happens, you want to call and talk to them, and you can't. And it's hard to have real conversations with people, though I never wish this upon them, them losing somebody they love like that.

it's hard to really relate on some levels with a lot of people that don't understand what you're actually going through and what that is. You know, I think I dealt with a lot when my dad was sick because I was like his medical proxy. Like I made all of his medical decisions because he was not able to do that himself in the last year. And so like I had to make all those decisions and I had to be the one to tell them to take him off of the life support.

And sign the, you know, the do not resuscitate and all that stuff. And, you know, the weirdest thing about that is even though all these doctors tell you it's the right thing to do and do that. And, you know, you still have this feeling of like, did I did I kill them? Did I did the choices I may kill them if I held out a month longer? Would they have recovered? Like, did I murder the person that I love?

And I know that's like a weird thought process to have, but because you have that responsibility and you took that responsibility, it's hard not to

to think like that. Yeah, that's definitely affected it. And, and, and also just, you know, like, I don't want the pain of losing my dad to go away, because it shows me how important he was to me. It's not a pain of always like I'm not in agony as I walk down the street. But things remind me of him and I will feel that sadness. And I think that it's important

- It's almost honoring them and honoring the relationship that you have and how much you loved them. It's like, you know, I miss my dad every single second of the day. I don't cry every single day anymore.

but yeah i miss him and and there are moments when i hear a song or you know a certain food is being cooked or there's something that you know a joke and i can see my dad like laughing so hard that tears would pour down his face right because that's that was his kind of laughter and that's what gets me that's what like those painful moments but like you said it's not

consistently like that you're in agony, but it just, again, shows like your love and your relationship with your father and how important that was. So how, how has that impacted maybe you and your work? Well, it's impacted me as you know, um, because I, I used to write all this stuff that I directed and I stopped writing because the last thing that I was writing, I was writing with him and he made me promise I would finish it.

If he died and he died and I have still not finished it because, you know, sitting and finishing that and sat like in front of the keyboard to finish it. And it's just like I'm not ready to finish it, you know.

And it's so silly because it was not even like, it's just like a cheesy horror movie. It was not a deep project. Like I want it to be deep now. But you only, your promise to him was that you would finish it. It wasn't that you wouldn't write anything else. It was just that you would finish that. Yeah, I know. But it's like, it's hard for me to not,

I understand, but maybe, just maybe, this is not the first time I've had this conversation with you. Now we're doing it on a podcast. I'm going to do it on a podcast to give some extra pressure here. Maybe, just maybe, if you write something else, it will free you up to finish writing.

what you two started together. Maybe. I just want to say to you that on a professional level, I always really love working with you. I think that you're, you know, very giving. I think that you're very talented. And on a personal level, I, you know, deeply, deeply, deeply appreciate you

how much you have, you know, supported me. And I'm not talking about career. I'm talking about like going through cancer and going through divorce and heartbreak and, you know, making me laugh and,

calling me drunk at 1 a.m. asking me to marry you? What? Sorry, that goes both ways. That goes both ways. You have called me drunk before and asked me to marry you. Have I? I have never drunk on anybody in my life. You are a liar. You're going to put this in. But the other thing I am going to say is that you, just like you promised your dad,

You have promised. That I would write you a script. I know, I know, I know, I know. And I did say it has to be before I die. This is a whole podcast. So you got to get on it. This is a whole podcast. We just have to figure out if it's like a hardcore drama or if we're doing like an old lady John Wick. I've already kind of figured out what I. Is it more like the old lady John Wick? That's what you want it to be, but it's going to be a hardcore drama that has an old lady John Wick thing going on in it.

I'm sure it's gonna be brilliant. We're gonna talk about it. But I have this really like on the drive out here. I had this really cool idea. So we'll talk about it. So I can expect to see it on my desk in 10 days. What? In 10 days? Also, what desk? That one over there. The one that you use for video games. You mean your game desk?

I don't game anymore. I gave it all up. You gave it all up. Oh, wow. It sounds like you're a drug addict. I started podcasting instead. I gave it all up. I'm no longer on the game sauce, James. Listen, that was like a very good COVID distraction, right? People were learning how to make sourdough bread and I was learning how to game. Because you already knew how to make sourdough bread.

Yeah. Yes. But I didn't want to learn any more cooking skills. I simply wanted to learn how to be the ultimate gamer. Yeah. I did come up short. I'm not the ultimate gamer. It takes like a 13 year old. Yeah. Like those kids are so good at that. But I feel like you kind of like, I remember there was, there was times where like we were hanging out and you were, you

you're like looking at your phone and I'm like, what are you doing? You're like, I'm just looking at like, you know, the stats on my game from like over here. And you're like, I might need to leave. I might need to go back and like up these stats on this. And I'm like, are you serious right now, Shannon? Yeah. I mean, listen, when I commit, I commit. Yeah.

I'm 100% committed to everything that I do. But mainly my friendship with you. I love you very much. And thanks for driving to Malibu. Are you ready for some pizza? Let's have some pizza. All right, let's get to it, you guys. Thank you for listening to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty. And we're going to go cook some pizza now. Bye. Bye. Bye.

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