Let’s Be Charmed…with Holly Marie Combs (Part 2)
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This is Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty. Hi, everyone. This is Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty. Part two of my interview with Holly McCombs. Hi, Holly.

So good we had to do it again. It's kind of like where we left off. We were, you know, talking about Charmed and what transpired and what happened. And, you know, I don't know if...

the statement was made in her book or if it was on like her press tour, I don't really know. Because I didn't at that point in time pay all that close of attention to it. And I know that people are really interested in what actually happened. It's a question that you and I get, I think, when we do the conventions and we go on these panels.

People have asked us and I sort of would say, oh, it's wait for the podcast, wait for the podcast. So now it's here. Let's be clear. Let's be clear. You know, I just want to make sure that everybody knows that there's zero hate here. The past is definitely done and over with. And yeah,

It's not even like we really talk about this at all. It's think this is coming up because it's a question that I get asked on a absolute regular basis. Every convention that we do, every single, you know, fan that I run into on the streets always asked me, why did you quit? Why did you quit? Why did you quit? And I'm like,

The narrative that I quit was assigned to me by other people. It wasn't assigned to me. I didn't assign it to myself. And I think I'm just at that point in my life where I don't want to keep lying about something. And I don't want to keep lying about something that...

meant the absolute world to me, something that I went to. I loved doing. I loved going to that job. I loved the people that I worked with. And I had a father who was extremely sick and

and had a lot of medical needs. And this show really helped me to provide for an entire family. So when my livelihood got taken away, it was extremely hard. I still went with the narrative and the story that everybody wanted me to go with. But now at my age and dealing with stage four cancer, I just don't feel like I have to keep telling a lie. I feel like it's okay to be honest.

So one of the biggest sort of myths out there was that I quit. Well, that story has a backstory and then another story. Yeah, it has a lot of backstories, which we'll go into. But just to, you know, sort of address that, I don't think that there's anybody in their right mind that would quit a hit show that's paying them a good amount of money

that they actually really enjoy working on, which was my deal. Like, I enjoyed it. Yeah, you did. You were very dedicated. You like to show up for stunt rehearsals a day early and do your wardrobe a week early. It was really annoying. Well, I mean, Eilish was, like, so good. You were prepared. You were overly prepared.

I was. I like to be prepared. But sort of during that time period, after the first season when everybody sort of got acclimated, I think things obviously started to change and the show got a lot more attention and us girls got individual attention.

And that may have caused some. Yeah, I heard that. I mean, we've talked about that, but I never knew that because I wasn't the one doing the Maxim covers. I think I did one terrible cover and they gave me very big boobs. And I was like, who is she? They did. I remember that cover. It was stuff.

Was it Stuff magazine? They made me like six feet tall and gave me really big boobs. And I was like, okay, that wasn't the picture I approved, by the way. I had final approval on the photo on the cover. And it was, I mean, it was a version of the photo I approved. But that was the only like...

Nike, Nike, Maxim type photo shoot I did. And I remember saying to my publicist at the time, I was like, shouldn't I take like a couple of weeks? Well, I was in my twenties, maybe three to like work out and look good for this. And he was like, honey, no, they airbrushed Giselle. They don't even care what you look like. And I was like, ouch. By the way, Stuff Magazine, the name, it sounds like

a porno magazine yeah well look like it but actually the cover shot was the one i was most comfortable with because i just wore my jeans i wasn't wearing like red lingerie and i was topless but my hair was covering my boobs so that was the one i was like cool i can swing this i remember this this cover it's very sexy yeah i thought so i mean if i was six foot and had double d's

Yeah. Don't look it up. Oh my God. Woman, let some things die. Okay. So they weren't double D's. They were like C's, but still. Hey, you never know. I could go shopping. Those are big. Yeah. Yeah.

It's too big for my flat foot too. Look at your abs. Yeah, I got out and they got longer. That's why I mean like I got long. I got tall. Yeah. You know, they definitely stretched the torso. They did because I have no torso. I mean, you look good though. I was, you know, the real picture was fine too though.

Yeah, I think I did like FHM and lingerie and then Maxim. It was... You guys were on the circuit. We were, but it was more of like all the other, you know, yes, those magazines where they served a purpose back then. But it was like the people magazines or the individual TV guide covers or the this or the that or the, you know,

In my case, I guess, like my contract was that I got, you know, I was the highest paid because I was the one that the network, you know, hired and sort of greenlit the show based on. So it was something my attorney negotiated in there and that caused a, you know, rift once again.

Once Alyssa found out that was definitely an issue. Yeah, and she did some backdoor deals. I don't know why I was privy to all the backdoor deals, but people tell me everything, I guess. You do have a plethora of knowledge of stuff that didn't even really pertain to you. It's kind of wild. Yeah. And I keep every text and email. So truth be told, let's be clear.

Yeah, I do too. Oh, I know this. I do know about you. Yeah. Some people don't love that about me, but that's all right. I just like keeping all that stuff because I think it's really good. Like reference. If somebody is saying something that, that transpired, that didn't transpire, then I can go back in the email and be like, well, actually here's the email. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's like the attorney side of me coming out.

- Mm-hmm. - Right, so there were all sorts of little jealousies. You went into the hospital.

And, and that was a little bit of a, an issue. You know, I asked, it was funny. I don't know why they put me in a room with Jonathan Levin of all people. It wasn't Jim, wasn't Aaron. Well, Aaron had kind of was having his own health problems at that point, but it wasn't Jim and it wasn't Duke who were by my bedside when I woke up from

surgery. So it was interesting that when I had a problem after this all transpired and I wanted to discuss leaving the show and all my reasons why they put me in a room with Jonathan Levin, which I don't know that I had seen since we went to network. And you had told me about your background with him, which is varied and interesting. And he obviously has a very fond spot, shall we say for you.

and um I don't know why they they chose him to do this meeting but I can tell you that during the meeting where I said this is not the show I I signed on to do I hear that you're looking for other people and it's not about the list of names it's it's about this was not a show that I wanted to do without Shannon she didn't want to do it without me therefore I don't want to do it without her and that should be fairly clear

And he had tears in his eyes already because he could see I was getting upset, as you can hear me getting upset. And I said, why would you hire her again just to fire her? And he said, we didn't mean to. And he said, but we've been backed into this corner. He said, you know, we're basically in a position where it's one or the other. We were told that it's her or me. And Alyssa has threatened to sue us.

for a hostile workplace environment, which because she went to the therapist or the mediator or the corporate mediator or whatever the heck his title is, she built a case for herself where she was documenting every time she felt uncomfortable on set and for whatever reason, whereas you and I refused to speak to him. So that's where the deck was stacked.

i always think that like when somebody does that you you know i would as a producer call them on it and i know that that's a huge risk and it was definitely one that they didn't want to take

And what's funny is that by today's standard, it wouldn't even qualify because there were no on set, you know, brawls. There was no either even like harsh words exchanged. It was all behind the scenes. It was all in a trailer. It was nothing that anybody or any of our guest stars ever noticed or noted.

And, you know, there's not a director that would not work with you again. There's not any one of our crew members that did not have a great time working with you. So by today's standards, it wouldn't fucking fly. Right. And I don't think being late as a teenager on a set called 90210 would fly for for being fired either. Like it's just it's just doesn't make any sense anymore. There are people that actually behave badly and get away with it.

And there are men that, you know, abuse people, throw things, screaming fits and get away with it. Like, I don't think people understand that that never happened here. Unless you were there. No one understands that. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, listen, I lived a, you know, a year after that sort of replaying everything in my brain and really like trying to find those moments where we were

and i couldn't find them like there was no like we never had it out like we never not privately or public publicly i don't ever remember being mean to her on set i actually like i remember an episode that i directed where you know she did something on the christmas break and they asked me to work around some things with her and i

had no problem with it. Like I couldn't have been more kind and understanding. And the only thing was that it was, there were like a couple of, couple of things that sort of stood out to me. One was, you know, her mom had that like safe searching thing or whatever. And she was,

like showed up one day and said, "Oh, well, you know, I designed your website and it's on safe searching now." And I was like, "Can you please take it down?" Like, my father doesn't feel well, he's not doing well. And I sort of want to give this to him as a project so he has something to occupy his time with. And

I mean, I have no idea if that was a factor or not, but it happened. They, you know, did yours as well, but you allowed it. And because why wouldn't you, you didn't have a dad that needed something to do. He's floating around out there. Right. And then the whole, you know, pay discrepancy, even though it was so incredibly minor, not even worth a conversation really, but yeah.

Once that all came out and her and I had the conversation and my attorneys went to spelling and said, this is not okay. You can't be doing, you know, side deals with someone. It was me that told you that there was another deal. So why wasn't I fired? Right.

Yeah, and I think, you know, previously, you know, you had discussed with them that the tension was getting high and that you didn't want to replay of what had happened before. So you were preemptively trying to work it out. And I also wonder in the back of their minds, if they didn't choose you because they knew they had done it before and 90210 went on, I almost wonder if

if they were okay with the publicity, if they were okay with we've done this before, it worked out fine, we can do it again. - I think that's a valid, valid point.

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yeah no they didn't want us working together they wanted to keep us segregated and separated and not negotiating together because then you have a friend situation where everybody's getting paid the same amount and that's not what they wanted to do you know like I said before I ended up doing the most hours for the least pay because I just didn't ask for raises I didn't want more to be taken out of the budget I didn't want to have no money for guest stars like

I was producing then. I knew that we had to get rid of Brian for some episodes to afford Nick Lachey.

But at the time when I had a three month old baby and I'm doing more hours than anyone and people are being let out for baseball games, you know, I sat in my trailer and I was like and I said to Jim and I said to Duke, I was like, I don't need to do this. I don't want to do this. This is the second time I don't want to do this. And I just I don't know how you expect me to pick up all the pieces and go home to a three month old baby and not be ragged.

Like it just wasn't fair. It just wasn't fair. Yeah, because when I was gone, once I was gone, it really did fall completely on your shoulders. Because at least while I was there, it was on my shoulders. And I would share it with you because we had the same mindset about the show. But then once I got fired, it was all on you.

Yeah, you know, and it took, you know, the writers were good about letting me work through the process of going through the change and grieving your loss and then being awkward with Rose coming in. Yes, Prue and Paige, but I'm using their real life names because that's what I had to deal with. And, you know, I said to Jonathan, it's not the show that I want to do. It's not the show I signed up for. And, you know, that's

The conversation got to the point where he said, not just threatened to sue me, but said he would sue me and dock my wages if I worked anywhere else. - Right, I remember including being a bagger at a grocery store, they would still dock your wages. - Yeah, I said, well, that's, 'cause I started laughing, like through my tears, I started laughing and I was like, what does that even mean? He said, we will sue you for what we think we will have lost on the show because of your departure.

And we will dock your wages to regain those numbers. And I said, well, what if I go to like Arizona and I bag groceries? He goes, we will dock your wages. It really was like suddenly I'm married to the mob. They forced me to go back to a show that I wanted nothing to do with.

And it was very emotional for me. And it was very emotional for both of us. And you couldn't understand how I couldn't do anything. And frankly, neither did I, because my voice meant nothing. And that's what

was so funny to me. I was like, you're telling me I'm so valuable that you can't do the show without me, but yet my voice and my feelings and my thoughts mean nothing. Well, imagine they couldn't, they couldn't lose two sisters. Like it's, it's fine to, you know, go into a fourth season replacing one sister and all of a sudden she's dead and you have her direct her own death without telling her what she's doing. But to lose two sisters,

For sure, I think at that point, the audience would have turned because the truth would have come out at that point. And eventually those people would have turned it off, which is why it's, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but you and I have spoken about this. It's hard to have even this conversation publicly because we are so respectful of people.

the audience and the fans and how much they love the show and they bond with the show and they think of us all as sisters.

So it's hard. You don't want to break that. You don't want to burst anybody's bubble. But the fact of the matter is, this is what I say. It is like a real life family. We did have common goals and we tried to keep it together. And we did get along famously for a long time. And then you just have life differences where sisters, as far as I know, from having no siblings myself, families, you know, stop talking to each other or people come back together and reunite or they don't, you know, and it's just, it's a painful experience.

it's a painful bond and it was a painful time and for it to be put to me the way it was was it felt like blackmail and then try acting through that and making people want to see it well you succeeded i don't know people still wanted to see it i think people inherently instinctually understand that it was like

Once I was gone, it was you that was the glue between the new threesome. And I think it's why when people really think of Charmed, it becomes, yes, Prue will always be there, but there's a big Piper element because I think it's obvious. Like you were, you know, hurt. You were all of those things. I think that shows in how you dealt with it after. But during the rest of those years, you were the glue. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, and it was tough because, you know, none of this was Rose's fault. And she was coming into this situation quite awkwardly, even though she'll say she was a tough guy. She wasn't. This was awkward for her. And I had...

I had empathy for her for that and I could see how difficult this was for her to just jump into not just being a show that was already running, but she had never done TV before. So there was a huge learning curve, you know, so I was sensitive to that fact. And really my only consolation, and it wasn't a very big one, was that I said to Jonathan,

You guys will not have the privilege of saying that you fired her again. And I said, the only thing that I'm going to ask of you is that she gets to put out whatever statement she wants to. And I said, if anybody talks about it, then I'm going to be a very big problem.

I mean, what's really funny about that is that I had a pay or play deal. And when all of this went down, I was like, okay, they can't burn me a second time. That's not fair. It's not fair to me. So I really wanted to sue them for my pay or play deal, which would mean that for as long as you guys went on, I would continue being paid and my contract would be honored as far as a paycheck goes.

and profit participation and everything that was in my contract. And my representatives, I remember them looking at me at the time and said, "No, no, no, your career won't survive another firing. So we're just going to say that you chose to leave." And I started, I remember I started laughing going, "Who is going to believe that I'm crazy enough to like, to leave a hit show?"

Or to direct an episode that you died in and not such great fashion. We would have made it far more spectacular than that. For sure. It wouldn't have been just a bookcase falling on you and me being thrown through the air and through a door wall or whatever. We both went through the wall and looked like we were taking a nap. I would have blown up. You know, I would have had

Far more spectacular. Somebody take over your body and you blow me up and let's see how you deal with killing her sister for the next season. I would have done something, you know, a lot more, but I'm going to say I was still young. I was 27, 28, 29, somewhere in that range and really thought that I should listen to everybody else about my career. And it's one of,

it's not like a huge regret because at the end of the day it's just a tv show and it's just one aspect of my life when my life is about so many other things but i wish that i had been older and wiser because i definitely would have sued and i would have been honest about the situation because the rumors followed me regardless right and so the rumors were there but now i wasn't getting paid and

I was made out to...

It makes you look crazy when you leave a hit show only after three seasons. I think that the people in the industry and the business knew what happened because word spreads pretty fast. Not necessarily, though. Yeah. We ran into it a couple of times. It was awkward. And I think I said much earlier that there are things that you can forgive and forget. And I was pretty harsh saying that I would never forgive

or forget. And I was contemplating that again today and yesterday. And I thought, is there forgiveness? I think there's acceptance, which as you get older, you accept that a situation happened. But acceptance and moving on with your life does not equate to forgiveness. You just learn a lesson and look at somebody differently and

and move on. I think we were all just cogs in that wheel. I think they knew how to make money and they did it well. You know, I was fine being, and I know that this doesn't sound very good for me, but I was fine being a cog in that wheel, to be honest, because it was a great show and it was something that I enjoyed. And the more it progressed and the more I got to do my stunts and I had that amazing stunt team, it was, it was fun. I looked forward to going back

to work. And once they started letting me direct, I was in my element. I was assuming that for a season I would direct something like five episodes or four episodes. It gave me a lot of opportunities that I was incredibly grateful for. But then when that was sort of snatched away without even a fair trial, that's what's upsetting.

Without a warning, though, either. I mean, I remember when you called me and we were on a hiatus and you were working and we hadn't really talked in a minute. And you said that they had just fired you. I said, that's impossible. It's impossible. I was like, you just directed the last episode. That's impossible. Like, I really was like, you're mistaken. You're mistaken because it was just so preposterous. It was so ridiculous. Yeah.

that it was like shocking and you said you need to do something and I was like what's it's just not even happening and it's so dumb so dumb I will say that I think Rose stepped in nicely and that as you said was very hard yeah I know that

There were some press things trying to pit us against each other. Well, that's what they did in that day and age. I kept on referring to a photo of the two of us at an Entertainment Weekly party in New York City where we hung out. And we're both smiling and happy with each other because there was no reason. It wasn't Rose's fault. There was no reason for me to have an issue with her. And she did a great job and she brought something quirky and different

to the show but it was definitely you that kept that train moving forward and being the person that cared oh so deeply besides me for it and making sure that the fans got what they needed out of that show you were very dedicated to that cause

Yeah, I was. I still am. And that's why going to cons is strangely, it's astonishing to me that it meant half as much to other people as it did to me because I really thought I was going crazy for a little bit where I was like, I just so valiantly wanted to make it good and wanted to make it real. And for whatever reasons, I can't really even explain now. So, yeah.

you know, part of it is work ethic. Part of it is not wanting to fail. You know, but it was a big deal to me. Wow. Anything that you want to add? I don't know. I got a little heated. I had to calm down a little bit. It was a terribly uncomfortable situation for me. And obviously you saying I'm not going to do the show without her in the beginning to network and me saying it clearly didn't have the same effect.

um you know and so it was terribly awkward for me you know brian and she were dating at the time when this all went down which to me us being completely oblivious to me was the worst part where it was like all sort of part of this plan that was happening and unfolding through over months it was you know months of that year

and you were dating Julian. So you guys were off in that world. And then Brian was off with Alyssa. He just recently, it was about a year ago in France, we were on stage at a panel that was filled with many, many people. And he just kind of paused. Like he looked at me like he forgot something. And I kind of looked at him like, what, what's the problem? Why are you looking at me like that? And he just looked at me

While someone was asking a question and just went, I'm so sorry. And I was like, sorry for what? I was like, are you going somewhere? What's happening? He just shook his head and he goes, I'm so sorry. Because we had talked about it a little on stage without talking about it. Because still no one was allowed to talk about it. And we got off stage and he just looked at me and said, I'm so sorry. That must have been a terrible time for you. That's all I have to say.

I mean, it took him like 24 years, but better late than never. Better late than never. I want to go back to something that you said right before that. And you said when I said the network, you know, it's she's doing it or you don't get me. And you said that, you know, obviously when you tried that, it didn't mean as much. And I want to say that I disagree because I

I think had it been any normal situation that we were in with them, you saying that would have been enough. They would have chosen the right path. And yes, do that now in this day and age, it's not going to fly in any way, shape or form.

But your voice, I think, was appreciated. And I think they knew that they couldn't lose you, but they were over a legal barrel. And I don't want you to ever sell yourself short in that scenario. I know that you fought for me and I know the tactics that they took with you, but

you know, you did the right thing. You stood up and you fought for what you believed in for your friend, for the show. But that legal barrel that was created was just far too much for them. And you have to accept that also and understand that. Again, you know, I just want everybody listening to respect the fact that

It's hard for the two of us to sit here and talk about this show in anything but a positive light because we know how much it meant to the audience and to our fans and to the people that we hear from all the time that talk about how it brought them closer to their families or it helped them get through dark times when they were younger and older.

that is something that the two of us take very seriously. We love the fans. We love the show. We're super respectful. So none of this is to try to tear any of that down. And as I said before, there's...

No hate left behind. We've all moved on and we definitely wish everyone, you know, peace, love and healing and all of that. I know I have much bigger things in my life to worry and concentrate on. However...

You can't, one can't keep telling the same story over and over and over again when it's not the truth. And this podcast is in fact called Let's Be Clear. So, all right, now Hala and I are going to talk about something else. Okay. I have a funny question. Oh dear. I mean, it's not funny, but it's one that we get asked a lot in the panels at the conventions.

Which is, would any of us ever consider doing a reboot? And how would we even manage to do it? Disclaimer being that we don't own the show. So it's very hard for us to... To convince CBS to pull their heads out of their asses. And let us do it. And let us do it the right way. Let us do it right. But how would that... Would you be interested in that? And what would that look like to you?

Gosh, you know, that's a hard question to answer because, you know, I get asked about it weekly. Like, I'm not exaggerating. I hate the R word. I hate, you know, the theory that we're going to reboot something to make it better than it was. So then let's not say a reboot. What if we do a continuation of...

But we've now fast forwarded so many years. You know, I have no problem doing it. I just hope for better special effects. I hope for, you know, people to understand that this show and this job meant so much to so many people around the world. And this is why I, you know, I sometimes downplay it and people get angry at me. But it's like, it's hard to talk about how important it was when you were part of

But I just think there's three generations now that have watched the show. There are people that watch it every day and sometimes twice a day. And, you know, yeah, I would do it. I would just hope that people would come to it with an understanding that some things are bigger than you and some things are more important than, you know, personal feelings.

You know, in that being said, there's also split screen and green screen and people don't have to work with each other if they don't want to. We can just make it look like you do. But yeah, you know, I just, I think from the very beginning, I've been trying to say this thing is bigger than all of us. It's definitely bigger than me. And it still means a lot to a lot of people. And I'm glad it does because that means that, you know, everything that we all went through actually still means something.

agreed yeah agreed i was trying to get a more fun answer out of you i know but it's too late i'm already in the dark and gloomy gritty i was trying to think um like what would have happened to your kids by now because what did happen to your kids is one like dead and one is alive like what's what's what's dead

Chris is dead he had a terrible accident off of the Golden Gate Bridge no I'm just kidding we can't kill Drew even though I want to kill Drew every day every day and the other I have a kid that you had no yeah Wyatt he's the perfect child um and supposedly in the continuing I think it's the comic books yes we have comic books in case anybody didn't know

And we had novels like Connie wrote books after the show ended, along with a few other writers. I had I finally had the third kid because everybody said she had a girl. I think they both somebody has twins. I mean, there's all sorts of another generation, which is why people were always like, why didn't they just do the next generation? Mm hmm.

And I was like, you'll have to ask the CW, Paramount and CBS that question. I always say that Prue is now like the most powerful elder. Oh, you're an elder. In the universe, but can come and kick physical ass all the time. That's the thing is nobody really dies. So you technically can do whatever you want. Technically. Right. Yep.

which i guess i mean i have no when they when they asked me if i would come for the finale you said no i said no and i didn't even ask like how they would bring me back because it's it's a fantasy world so obviously there's tons of different ways to do it and um they would have been open to my suggestions but yeah i think i didn't want to do the finale because at that point it had been however many seasons and yeah i was you know very

separated you were trying to distance yourself from it and move on yeah which is understandable but I'm now an old lady and I'm like that's okay I could still do some stunts I'm not doing any

Come on, we can run around in heels still. I want a rocking chair. You can do your hand thing. I can do that from a chair. And she's got some grandkids now, probably. They can go run around in heels. Drew wears heels just fine. And your daughter's probably a witch. She is. Yeah. I've never read these novels that Connie wrote. I'm going to have to try to track them down. Have you read them? And the comic books.

in comic books I always seem to be doing laundry so I'm not into those either no no thank you no that's not good so we we kind of bonded over Sea Shepherd although you were very militant about it much more than I was you're like we're going to this demonstration today I was like it's Valentine's Day you were like yeah let's go um

So, yeah, I mean, we had that in common and we had that sort of drive to be an activist and in common. And I think especially with what has happened to Sea Shepherd, there's clearly more work to be done. I think it's about time for either one of us or both of us to have our own foundation, because right now, especially with like.

what's happened to Sea Shepherd it's hard to know who to trust and it's hard to know where trust where your money is going and things like that so I'm I'm producing a documentary about the harbor seals up here I just pledged my own money

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There's obviously a lot of really good foundations, but there is, I'm always amazed at how much money is spent on administration salaries as opposed to, as opposed to the bulk of the money going towards the animals. So also, you know, for me, it was very hard with Sea Shepherd because of the thing with Taiji and,

paid my way there and went and gotten a lot of trouble with Japan that didn't really want me to come back for a while and being there at the Cove. And that was extremely hard, just like watching all of the their campaign for the baby seals in Canada that are clubbed to death and then saying, okay, why aren't you still there? Well, it's going to die out.

we've done a great job and we've brought it down to a certain level, which is what a lot of these foundations do is they think like, all right, so instead of 10,000 seals is now only 1,000 seals. So eventually that's going to be zero seals. But what happens is once you disappear and you don't have a presence there anymore and you're not documenting it anymore, the 1,000 seals turns into 3,000 seals, which then turns into 5,000 seals. And then you have the problem again.

And I'm a firm believer in sticking with the campaign until you get the result that you want. Right. I think, you know, with them, they had limited resources, even though they had the most of many. And, you know, the focus would sway. But now with Sea Shepherd, it's no longer really Sea Shepherd. There's nobody in Taiji. There's only Dolphin Project in Taiji. That's correct. And I will say Dolphin Project, how...

amazing because they have stuck with it and poured a lot of money into it. Very consistent with Lolita and very consistent with Taiji and captives and rehabilitation. So they still get my vote. Yeah, they get my vote too. They've definitely proven to be stewards of those dolphins and Taiji and the pilot whales and

the melon heads and all of that. They've done a really beautiful job being stewards. - You try. - Don't know how we don't eradicate that situation, especially considering that it's been proven that that meat is filled with mercury and incredibly bad for you. And I was just talking to a woman from Japan the other day, she's a beautiful lady, she did my makeup for,

People Magazine and Hanoka. And we were talking about it and she was saying that nobody really eats it anymore, that it's a very there's one area, one area in a certain generation that really eats it. And I said, well, of course, that's because they are going to continue claiming that they eat it because they can hide under the cultural

banner as opposed to what it's truly about, which is financial. It's all about capturing those dolphins that they then get to go sell for a million dollars, $2 million. That poor albino dolphin is still in that small. And I was there at that Taiji Whale Museum. And that is nothing, no place for anything to be living in. But they have to because they're making so much money. These fishermen, fishermen,

don't know any other way. They don't want to know any other way. They get a ton of money and, and, but they, they do, they can't say, well, we're just greedy. We're just greedy. So we're going to keep killing dolphins and in the most horrific way possible, because those still rods that they put through their blue holes does not kill them right away. It is incredibly painful. They bleed out. They're separating mothers from their babies. It is, I've never seen something more horrific. And for anybody who has not

Still doesn't know anything about what's happening in the Cove in Taiji. There is a documentary called The Cove. It's very good. You should watch it. And then you had me go with you to the protest in Miami. That was Lolita. Yeah, that was Lolita. Can you tell us a little bit about Lolita?

She, unfortunately, you know, I don't know. There was also someone who took over the Miami Sea Aquarium who was, I believe, pretending to have good faith in sending her home, which is actually where I live now.

now because I moved to sort of the neck of the woods where I felt I could do the most and was most inspiring to me. And she would have been rehabilitated here, but I feel like and I did at the time that they weren't being entirely honest, you know, talking about raising funds and keeping them.

I don't think this organization had any real plans on releasing her. And the same with SeaWorld. You know, like I did, I narrated the documentary on Corky, who is the longest held captive. And she's been there decades, like Lolita was there decades. And, you know, Lolita's case was really...

tragic because her tank wasn't even a legal size. So there were so many reasons, you know, that she should have been the one that was released. And sadly, she passed away just recently under really suspect circumstances that haven't totally been revealed yet. You know, and it was me and Paul Watson and one other person who said,

they have no intention of releasing her. This is all just a smokescreen. It was all just a stall tactic. And nobody really wanted to hear that. But with organizations like that, who their business is owning dolphins,

And SeaWorld, there's very little hope. We can talk about it. We can make movies about it. We can show how atrocious the tanks are and how dirty and how bored they are and how brilliant and smart and how they're meant to live with their families and be social. And we can do all that, but there's nothing that's going to

convince a corporation to change their formula that's been making them money for decades without a tidal wave of public opinion. And then fortunately, there's just too many people who still go to SeaWorld and buy a ticket and basically fund abuse. There's just no other way to put it. You're funding animal abuse. I get it, right? Like I get

someone having a kid and being like, I want to, I want my child to see this killer whale and this dolphin or this elephant or this, I understand, but there are other ways to, to see these animals, to, to witness. There are migrations that you can go see at any point in time. And then you're also teaching your child about respecting the

another being and what they're like in the wild. The corporations have to have, yes, an outcry of human opinion and it's got to hit them in their wallets. They cannot profit from it anymore. Once it becomes too expensive for them to buy them and house them and

and they're just not making the profit, that's when things might change. Also, the regulations need to be better. Yeah, they're losing money now. They're actually getting sued for lying to stockholders about how much they were actually losing because of the blackfish effect, they call it. But the fact of the matter is, if you don't humanize, and I don't like to do that with animals, but if you don't humanize the issue, people die.

don't really care and go throughout their days. So like the campaign I did with PETA was pretty smart because they said, you know, moms shouldn't take their babies to SeaWorld because what happens is, especially with orcas, the sons in the wild live with their mothers their entire life. Their entire life they do not leave their mothers.

And in SeaWorld, they separate the babies from their moms, separate families. And there's literally like they scream out, shaking and crying when this happens. Like there is a there's a family bond with orcas that we can't even understand as humans because they have a whole different part of their brain. That is a sense of community, community and family that we don't even have.

Like they literally have a different part of the brain that is just for this. So we know enough to know this about them. And we know that after five decades, this is torture for them. And the only thing I can really do without being a really big pain in the ass and annoying is just tell people and inform people, let them make their own decisions. And hopefully they'll decide SeaWorld is too expensive to watch something be miserable in a tank. Yeah.

Especially because there's other alternatives to seeing it. And I'm sorry, go watch a documentary and show your child through a documentary. It's far more interesting and far more revealing than watching something be trained to do flips and tricks because you're starving them of food. And they're now completely reliant upon a human being because that's not natural. That's not how they conduct themselves in the wild. So

at least have a true wild, authentic experience versus what you're getting at a place like SeaWorld. I think the best idea I've heard in a long time is us starting a foundation. Yeah, that too. Well, we have a few ideas. I mean, we also have a deep love of all animals, but horses. We bonded over horses for a very long time. We still do. We both do rescue work with horses.

i just rescued two one's got cancer and one eye has to be taken out yeah that's unfortunate but they do adapt they do adapt especially if they have a buddy she found a buddy at the kill pen or her buddy found her yeah so that helps keep them um calm and secure and dogs we had lots of conversations about dogs and how to help and especially with how

with high kill shelters. Yeah. I mean, we do have a lot of, we have a lot of, we have a lot of fires in the oven right now. Yeah. We have a lot of common interests and we kind of always have. And I think the ones we have cooking, you know, are kind of a culmination of all those things. I would agree. Thank you. Sure. Anytime.

Great. No, not anytime. Great. I'll see you in like two hours. Yeah. Great. Awesome. All right. Well, that's Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty with special guest Holly Marie Combs. Love her. Love you guys. Thanks for listening.

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