The Cult of Wine Moms
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Head to squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Yeah, there's a whole lot I could say about, like, the privilege of being able to be a wine mom.

If a bottle of wine is in a Stanley cup, that's just what moms do. That's what moms need, right? Rosé all day. I used to have a phone case that said rosé all day. And that's cute and that's fun until you're like getting a DUI from drinking rosé all day, right? Totally. Totally.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montell, author of the books Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show, you're going to hear us analyze a different fanatical fringe group that puts the cult in culture, from Swifties to Stanley Cups, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? ♪

And if so, is it a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out level cults? After all, not all culty groups from the zeitgeist are equally destructive. Cults these days fall along a spectrum. And today we are here to analyze a touchy subject, one that addresses alcohol consumption and motherhood. We're gonna bring some sensitivity to it, don't worry about it.

but hopefully we'll also have a laugh. Today, we're talking about the cult of wine moms. And stick around because we're going to be hearing from a recovered wine mom herself, the author Emily Lynn Paulson, who's also an ex-MLM salesperson. Oof! The culty lives that our special guest host today has led. Culties, before we get into the rest of the episode, I actually wanted to invite you to something real romantic and

and culty that I'm doing later this year. So some truly loyal listeners may know that last year I hosted this write and travel with me experience in...

Italy. Yes. Overseas Europe in Italy. And it really was so dreamy and special and escapist and lovely that I decided to do it again. So this fall, between October 13th and October 19th, I'm hosting this excursion on the Amalfi Coast. You can sign up at the link in our show notes.

And over the course of these six days, I host a group of 15 to 20 of us as we see gorgeous sights and eat incredible food. All the activities and most of the meals are completely planned out. And everybody who attends these things are kind and curious and just like looking to make grown up friends and looking to have an adventure. And along the way, sort of themed to the day's activities, I teach a daily writing workshop.

It sounds too good to be true, like a cult. And this is the great irony of my life that every time I try to do a thing, it's gonna sound like a cult. Such is the meta nature of hosting this podcast.

But it really is just a lovely group trip that we all get to take that's like Italy themed and literature themed. And the sign up deadline to come on this trip is coming right up. Again, it's this October. Anyone from anywhere in the world can come along. So if you are at all curious to learn more about this, I have dropped the link with all

All the details and the pricing info in the link in our show notes. You can also find it in the link in my bio on Instagram at Amanda underscore Montel. A little escapism these days. Look, it's sorely needed. So if you're a seasoned adventurer or if you're kind of a nervous traveler, whatever you're bringing to the table, it's a really, really fun time. And I hope you come. Okay, on to the episode.

First, let's just set up the topic a little bit because I wasn't entirely sure what a wine mom was before looking into it for this episode. I am not a mother, admittedly, although I do take care of two beloved cats and a dog. They don't drive me to the drink, but sometimes I do consume wine in their presence. But what is a wine mom according to the internet? ♪

According to the good book, the Great Bible, a.k.a. Urban Dictionary, a wine mom can be defined as a middle-aged female, usually a mother, who enjoys drinking a refined glass.

complex red or white wine, most likely bought from Whole Foods with her other middle-aged female friends while exchanging neighborhood gossip. Common topics during this odd ritual include but are not limited to annoying children, idiotic husbands, fundraisers for an elementary or middle school, that one neighbor who enjoys starting drama, and other neighbors who choose not to maintain their lawn. Wine mothers also tend to post their gatherings on Facebook.

Okay, so that is one interpretation. Overall, the term why mom is basically this kind of cringey, lighthearted phrase to refer to mothers who ostensibly like to kick back with a glass of rosé or two or two.

10 as a form of release and camaraderie, kind of like getting together with your sorority sisters all grown up. But Wine Mom has also turned into a whole category of merch, t-shirts that say things like kids in bed,

House looks fine. Lord have mercy, I need wine. Or just the classic, mama needs wine. I'm not a regular mom. I'm a wine mom. This mom runs on coffee, wine, and Amazon Prime. The volume of merch there is to purchase associated with this identity, this habit, this cutified form of alcoholism is truly remarkable.

And exploited by plenty of brands. The Wine Mom is now actually a niche within the alcohol market. And there are all these sort of canned wines and adorably labeled bottles that are specifically catered to wine moms. There's even a wine label called Mom Juice. There's another that's called Badass Mom. The Wine Mom lifestyle has been reoccurring.

and glorified in much media, including TV shows like Cougar Town and Dead to Me. But of course, there are darker sides to this alcohol-heavy subculture. Despite how innocent the term wine mom sounds,

and all of the flouncy fonts and bright pink colors associated with this culture. It is a group with rituals and us-versus-them dynamics and high exit costs and seriously safety and health-threatening behaviors all passed off as something normal and celebrated because it's, oh, just those neighborhood moms and their silly matching t-shirts.

I am certainly no doctor. I am certainly no expert in the risks associated with excess alcohol consumption. But of course, as many of us know, they include high blood pressure, heart disease, liver disease, cognitive decline, even breast cancer. But then again, who's

who could begrudge a mother who has been denied so many of the resources necessary to handle the challenges of parenting in contemporary society the desire to get together with other moms going through the same stuff, getting

Kick back, have some wine. This conversation about the cult of wine moms is not intended to shame or blame. It's simply to take a innocent-looking fanatical fringe group and discuss how cult-like it is and how dangerous that cult-like behavior can really get.

Is wine mom culture relatively harmless or does it perpetuate something legitimately dangerous? And I'm not just talking about the behaviors of these individual wine moms and their neighbors themselves. I'm talking about the marketing campaigns that

influencers and brands used to target stressed and vulnerable demographics, potentially normalizing excessive drinking. We all crave coping mechanisms during challenging times. We all crave a sense of identity and unity and solidarity. And there are plenty of subcultures within mom culture. Gym moms, yoga moms, frickin' garden moms. Some of them are cultier than others. Some of them are more dangerous than others.

But I'd like to think that they each exist for a pretty pure intentioned reason, which is the desire for community and connection and solace. But that's enough of my two cents. Let's get an expert guest host in here. I really hope you enjoy the following conversation with Emily Lynn Paulson, who is not only an author of two books titled Highlight Reel and Hey Hunn,

But now that she has defected from the wine mom cult, so to speak, Emily has become a sobriety coach and went on to found a community called the Sober Mom Squad. So without further ado, please welcome Emily. Thank you again for joining this episode of Sounds Like a Cult on the Cultradio.

the cult of wine moms. Could you introduce yourself and your work to our listeners? Yeah. So I'm Emily Lynn Paulson, and I am a mom who used to be a wine mom. I'm a writer, speaker. I have a group for sober moms, for women who are sober curious, any really stage of the drinking game. And I wrote a book about being in an MLM, and I wrote a recovery memoir about

And that's me in a nutshell. You've had brushes with exactly the types of cults that we like to cover on this show. You're not like a Children of God survivor, but your experience with the MLM cult and these parenting cults just rocked.

Delicious fodder for Sounds Like a Cult. God, the language surrounding mothers and alcohol consumption and coping, it's all so fraught. Like even just like the term sober curious, there's so much sensitivity surrounding this stuff. The term wine mom, it gives me the heebie-jeebies, but we'll unpack that. What does the term wine mom mean to you exactly? And how do you feel about the term? Yeah.

You know, so I always start with this disclaimer because anytime I talk about this, which is often, I get the feedback like, oh, well, you're shaming moms who drink. You are shaming women. You're not uplifting women. Like, I love women. I'm not anti-woman. I'm not anti-alcohol.

But wine mom culture is this like prescribed, not even assumption. It's like a requirement to drink in order to parent. And if you don't, you're somehow like not in this club. And the things I've learned and the things I share are really just like data.

that alcohol is not great for parenting. Alcohol is not great for women. Like do it if you want to, you're an adult, it's legal, but let's have some informed consent. And I think that's like the most culty thing is when you talk about it, if you talk about what's bad about something and people automatically come back with, you're shaming me. That's like cult 101, right? Absolutely. I mean, alcohol is poison. Like there's like,

No other way to say it. I mean, I say that as someone who loves it. I don't have children, but I'm a wine mom. Two things can be true at once. Alcohol can be enjoyable. You can involve it in your life and also acknowledge that, yeah, it's really bad for you. And you can let your confirmation bias take over and find all the studies that you want saying that

red wine is good for your heart. But like at the end of the day, alcohol in general, net negative. Right. And we don't treat any other drug like we do alcohol. There's, you know, the thought stopping cliches like, oh, well, everything in moderation. But we don't use that with anything else like, oh, just cocaine in moderation, heroin in moderation, even smoking. You know, if a friend quits smoking, we congratulate them. But if someone quits drinking, it's a whole different response. People question why. Totally. Totally.

And I am sure that there is a whole history to the role of alcohol in American society that we probably don't have time to fully explore today. But the cult-like aspect comes in when this becomes like not just a beverage, not just a recreational mind-altering substance, but an identity, a culture, an aesthetic value.

that can have high exit costs and incorporate those us versus them ideologies and thought terminating cliches like you just said. First, I also want to make the disclaimer that we're going to unpack the gender dynamics here. Like we're going to approach this subject matter with nuance. It is so sensitive. I don't want to shame anyone either, of course. We're just here to kind of like acknowledge some of the potential harm that this quote unquote cult

can enact even if it doesn't look like a cult on the surface. So when I say the cult of wine moms, what qualities, rituals, rules come to mind for you? You know, it's the t-shirts and the mugs. And I had these. And I say this as someone who wore a shirt that said Prosecco made me do it.

Like I bought into this hook, line and sinker, you know, the mommy sippy cup, the you need a vineyard to homeschool your kids, you know, like during the pandemic, this was huge. It's five o'clock somewhere. All those things that women are specifically targeted with the cute pink things. The fact that there is actually a mom wine, it's specifically targeted to women. And it's like this, you're in a club.

and like the illusion of choice. You're being so rebellious and you're letting loose, but really you're just falling victim to like marketing. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the conformism that you see in bachelorette party culture. It's the sort of, dare I say, somewhat millennial cringe aesthetic, but it's selling you poison.

delicious poison, but like coping mechanism poison. So speaking of the aesthetic, how do you think wine mom identity has become cultier over time? Because it seems like alcohol has probably played a role in motherhood and like has probably had this like cult equality to it for decades, if not centuries. I mean, I think of like Betty Draper in Mad

men and other sort of like 50s era Tupperware era speaking of the MLM stuff women gathering at happy hour these sort of like stay-at-home moms having a permission structure to bond with other friends in their demographic over a substance but it seems to have really exploded to what do you credit

the further cultification of wine moms? So I will say I had my first child in 2005. So 19 years ago, and my last child was born in 2012. And over that time, I saw a huge change. So even just in that short amount of time, there wasn't wine at playdates with my first baby. And then all of a sudden, it became a thing. And my drinking just continued to increase with it.

And I think one thing that happened was social media, the jokes, all of a sudden you could buy the t-shirts. You saw gatherings of women together where they all had their wine and they were, you know, letting loose or whatever. So I do think social media really played a part in it. And I think,

marketing as well. You know, companies got smart that that's a really good way to target people. And the other thing that I started seeing that I don't remember seeing before was this, this thing called pink washing, which I'm sure you've heard about with lots of other products, but specifically with alcohol.

companies that will sell wine with like the breast cancer ribbon on it and it's marketed as like this helpful thing for women when it's marketing something that causes the ailment that it's trying to market for you know like wine actually leads to an increase in cancer so those are the things i started noticing

And I think what made it worse for me specifically was alcohol to cope. And this is why women are more susceptible to it because women specifically drink more to cope than men do.

And, you know, if you want to bring in the gender dynamics of why, and that's all systemic and the world gives us no choices, like what choice do we have but to drink? It really is when you are drinking to cope, you are going to use more of that substance when you have more to cope with. And the funny memes, the jokes, the shirts just became a way for me to deflect the shame and to double down on people saying, oh, ha ha, then it made me feel like I wasn't doing something wrong, even when I realized it was becoming a problem.

Yeah, because I think due to the media or just general stereotypes, when we think of alcoholism, we, I'll speak for myself, I think of, well, not anymore. Not anymore, because alcoholism has a lot of different faces and I've been exposed to quite a few of them. But growing up, I guess, I thought of an alcoholic as like this person.

sort of like wife beating husband who like wakes up in the morning with the shakes. Like that's what I envisioned. And of course, that is not what alcoholism or problem drinking or whatever you want to call it universally looks like. And I think it's so wild that our culture at large celebrates alcohol this much. You drink for every occasion. You drink when you're sad. You drink when you're happy. The culture encourages this.

And when you slap not only an adorable tagline and a T-shirt with bridesmaid font on it, you literally slap a cancer fighting nonprofit on it. Now it's like being sold to you is a good thing. I mean, we can talk about like the Susan G. Komen stuff another day. I mean, I fundraise for a cancer nonprofit, the Leukemia and Lymphosis Society, shout out, which does incredible work.

But nonprofits are another cult that we've covered on this show. And there is actually beef between nonprofits, even if they're fighting for the same cause, which I think is fucked up. But yeah, it is like an open secret that the Susan G. Komen Foundation in particular spends most of its fundraising dollars on marketing and advertising. And that's why their symbols and their color scheme is so recognizable.

But I didn't really know that there was such an overlap between wine mom culture and pinkwashing. Can you talk more about that? Because that feels really cult-like.

And there's a whole lot I could say about like the privilege of being able to be a wine mom, because like you said, you know, your perception of an alcoholic was someone like with the brown bag and then a wife beater. And like, that was your idea of it. If a bottle of wine is in a Stanley cup, that's just what moms do. That's what moms need. Right. But if it's in a paper bag, it's gross, it's lowbrow, it's low class and privileged, marginalized communities, they're not afforded like the ability to joke about it.

So I think the whole pink washing thing is if it's pretty, it's okay. If it's not, then it's not okay. And our misunderstanding, again, of like what addiction actually is that using an addictive substance over time can lead to people becoming addicted to it. It doesn't discriminate, but it looks nice. And I think that's why pink washing works. You know, rosé all day. I used to have a phone case that said rosé all day. And that's cute. And that's fun until you're like getting a DUI from drinking rosé all day.

Totally. You know, this is a point that comes up on the show now and again, and I think it's one worth re-emphasizing that we forget how much privilege is actually necessary and attractive for cult membership. The stereotype, again, is that cult followers are desperate, disturbed, woo-woo weirdos.

who are down to their last dime. But why would a cult want to recruit someone like that? You know, like cults want people who have time and money to burn, who can sell the dream for them. You know, with every single recruit, you want to create this picture that this is paradise. And I think I'm definitely seeing that here. There are so many cult-like behaviors that when represented by

by someone white, wealthy, normatively attractive, whatever, like holding all these positions of privilege looks really alluring that on someone with less privilege would look sad or worthy of criticism in some way. So I'm glad you brought that up. ♪

Before we get more into the critical analysis, like I want to hear more about why wine is the mom thing and why like women use alcohol more as a coping mechanism. I didn't realize that until you said it. I want to hear about your experience. So like, how were you recruited into this quote unquote cult? And what was your journey? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I would say that drinking was something I did at a young age. You know, I was about 14 when I first drank. And when you're younger, problematic drinking, like drinking is already problematic because you're already doing something you're not supposed to be doing. You're not 21. And so I still fit in.

with everybody else. Like it looks like totally normal teenage drinking. Same thing in college, even though I was binge drinking and I would go to parties, my drinking looked a lot like the people around me. So as I got into adulthood, I still had some problematic drinking behaviors, but I never fit the whole checklist of an alcoholic.

again, I was very high functioning, high achieving. I was very smart. I wasn't having any health problems. I wasn't having any criminal issues. But when I became a mom, it was very much like, this is something you have to do. And I think what held it off becoming a bigger problem earlier was the fact that I didn't drink during pregnancy. And this is another thing that is interesting as I've been working with women and not to get on a whole like in the weeds tangent, but it's very well known. We've been, it's been

beat into us since we were little, like women, when they're pregnant, don't drink. You don't drink when you're pregnant. It's just a thing. It's bad for the baby. You don't drink. And yet as soon as that baby comes out, it's like bottoms up. I mean, people brought me wine to the hospital. I packed myself beer. No joke. It's a really common gift after a woman has a baby because it's like, here, you'll need this. And it's so interesting to think about that will protect the

baby in utero. And then once the baby's out, all bets are off, right? And just our belief around how alcohol is necessary. And so after my last child was born, it was kind of balls to the wall. It was like, I've got my body back. I've got my life back.

what's next? And I was sort of in this place just in my life where I was kind of looking for the next thing. And I did use it as a coping mechanism. It's like not really knowing what I wanted out of life. Am I going to go back into the workforce? Can I go back into the workforce? My friends are done having kids too. We can get together. We can let off some steam. And it kind of took on a life of its own. And I

Again, this was my misunderstanding of what addiction was because I believed I had stopped five times for nine months at a time. Clearly, I didn't have a problem. My parents didn't drink when I was growing up. So clearly, I couldn't have a problem. Like I never fit the checklist when you Google, am I an alcoholic? And that kept me stuck.

for a very long time. I could do the Dry Giannou worries, I could do the sober Octobers, but I did start to question things. And I think the other culty thing in there, and you've already done the cult of AA and all of that, and no shame to AA before people come at me, it was very much a part of my process. There really wasn't a place at the time for someone like me who was like, "I'm high functioning, everything's fine, nothing's wrong, but I am concerned 'cause things are starting, my drinking's getting worse,

I can quit. But, and it was like, but I wasn't getting a DUI yet. You know, I didn't have marriage problems yet. I didn't have health problems yet. And so there was like nowhere for me to go until all those things started happening. So once I had the health problems, once I was in the hospital, once I got the DUI, well then.

AA was for me, right? So it was like this weird place where once you are questioning it and you're looking around you and it's like, well, everyone else is drinking too. What's wrong with me? It was almost like it was my fault. It wasn't the fault of like this substance I was drinking. Right. So that sent me into recovery and I started out in AA.

did the steps. And, you know, that really unveiled a lot of other things in my life that I was like, oh, I was drinking over this. And this was why I was drinking and how I was specifically using it to cope and instill a sense of identity and purpose. Wow. That really makes me think like, of course, cults operate in extremes, right? You're not going to have a very successful cult if you try to construct it around nuance or middle ground. Right.

And AA, again, like I have a lot of different sort of outside opinions about AA. I know dear people in my life who live by it, swear by it, say it saved their life. And then I know that there are plenty of folks out there who felt exploited by it, who didn't feel like it was the right fit for them, who felt like it wasn't hospitable for women.

in various ways, whatever. Like it is bananas that AA is like the only option that our society really provides, the only mainstream option for folks who want to recover from alcoholism or stop drinking or whatever. But like there's so much talk about like rock bottom and how like you have to hit your bottom in order to start getting better. And that feels like a sort of

culty mentality as well. It's like, why can't we make a change in our lives before shit really hits the fan? You know, but like cults want to operate in those extremes. They benefit from people at the highest highs and the lowest lows. So those extremes feel very present in alcohol culture and certainly wine mom culture.

Yeah, I mean, systemically, like, again, we don't have like a lot of parental leave. We don't have affordable childcare at all. We don't really have a village anymore. Like the way our society is structured,

if you're given wine as an alternative or as a fix, you're going to take it. Because again, this isn't a fault of women. This is a fault of the system that we're given and the patriarchy. And we could talk about that for hours, but that's the solution we're given. The literal solution. And we use it. Yeah. Oh my God. I think about this all the time, how so many of the cults that we cover on this show, and more serious cults as well, but it's just more fun and relatable to talk about

fucking Swifties and shit. These like hyper competitive, sometimes unhealthily fanatical pockets of the zeitgeist in large part exist because yes, we've lost that sort of village aspect of our communalism. There's such self branding. There's such like if

your child is doing well, then mine must be losing. You know, if you have a beautiful house, then my house must be ugly. Like there's such individualism in society now that we can't like come together and like lean on one another in a community as a coping mechanism when dealing with the hardship of motherhood or whatever it is. Like we have to keep it secret and private. And so alcohol is at once like this secret

secret coping mechanism, but at the same time, it's this like phantom bonding replacement for the human drug that is connection, you know? Like the most effective drug is just like leaning on one another. And now a quick word from our cult followed sponsors who make the show possible.

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Can you talk about the wine of it all? Like we don't even have a term for a beer dad. Like what's going on with like the wine and what's going on with the mom?

Yeah. So there's a lot of snobbery, I think, too, that goes into this, like the cult of just wine culture in general. Yes. You know, I think about like wine tastings and it's proven alcohol numbs your taste buds. So the idea that like wine pairs with food, it's completely in your head and people are going to come at me for this, but it's true. Like,

There may be wines that like, oh, these tannins clash with these things. That can be very true, but there's no numbing agent that can actually enhance a food. Oh my God, I didn't even know that. Yeah.

Yeah. But it's like if you go wine tasting and it's fun and you like the food, go to town. But it's definitely like a marketing thing, right? It's a way to make money because I know I went to wine tastings and it's like by the fourth or fifth winery, all the wine was great. And then the next day I got it home and I'm like, why did I buy this? It's terrible, right? Your palate just can only take so much. So your senses are impaired. You can't even taste well.

So that's one of the things where we think wine is very sophisticated. Again, it's not whiskey in a paper bag. It's like, oh, wine, there's good wines and there's expensive wines and there's all of these things that make it kind of like this achievement. Like, oh, I've achieved being a wine person. I've gotten to the end of the day and I can reward myself with wine. Like you said, with the community, like I can get together with my friends and wine tasting. And there's just something that's

classier and I don't really know what it is. It's just we think it's fancy and it seems like a reward and that's all I can say about it because I felt that too. Right. And it's not that dads don't get together and drink, they do. It's just the way it's prescribed to women is like...

This is how you let loose. You know, after you go to change a diaper, you can go out with your friends and be fancy. I don't know. Mimosas. It's like you're drinking at 9 a.m., but if it's mimosas, it's fine, right? Oh, my God. Speaking of 9 a.m., like, I totally was planning on having wine when we did this episode. LOL. Any excuse to drink, but it is 10 a.m. But do wine moms start that early? Like, on a weekday?

Oh, I did. Yes. And again, it now to me, it's horrifying. But yes, I mean, Bloody Mary is like at soccer games. And you know, you have an all day soccer tournament or a baseball tournament or whatever in coolers with alcohol and people don't bat an eye. And when you think about it, it's like,

don't you have to drive there and back? And also then you've got parents like being belligerent on the sidelines. It's just, that shouldn't be a thing, but it totally is. I know that most of my kids like award ceremonies for soccer in like second grade were at breweries. Yeah.

It's like there are other places, but yeah, I don't know what it is. Right. Oh my God. And you know, there is this like creepy over-gendering of certain things in, I don't know if this exists in other cultures, but certainly in American culture. Like, yes, I have it in my mind because of the disease of our society that like wine is girly and beer is boyish. And like, we just love, we love,

categorizing things by gender. It makes the world feel more predictable and it keeps the patriarchy alive. And if the patriarchy semi works for you, like the people who have the privilege of being a wine mom, the patriarchy is somewhat working for them. So maybe you're not going to subvert it or critique it too much. But I even have this thing in my head where it's like society taught me growing up that dogs were for boys and cats were for girls. What is wrong with us?

Right. So I grew up in Montana and I remember growing up and it was an encouraging compliment if you could drink like the boys. Yeah. And if you could drink whiskey like the boys and you could drink the boys under the table. And I remember sharing this meme on social media. It was like, you could take a Montana girl home to your dad and she can drink him under the table or something like that. I was like, yeah. And it's like,

Gross. So this idea that, oh, we can drink like the boys are like, we shouldn't want to be able to do that. I know. I know. I actually I touch on similar gender dynamics in the chapter of my first book, Wordslet, where I talk about women cursing.

Because there's this very attractive two straight cis men vibe where you're like overall an extremely classically feminine woman with one hyper masculine quality. And that almost like sprinkling sea salt on a chocolate chip cookie brings out your feminine flavor even more. So it's like a Charlie's Angel holding a pistol. Yeah.

It's like the girl next door in her Daisy Dukes who can drink so much whiskey and put hair on her chest, except of course it doesn't.

Or like a woman who is like dainty and adorable but swears like a sailor. A slut in the bedroom, right? Yeah, or whatever. It's the one thing. It's the one thing. And it's just more fucking patriarchy. It's trash. Well, I do want to ask, you mentioned before that alcoholism is more prevalent among women. Can you talk about that? Yeah, women are more susceptible to becoming addicted to alcohol than men are.

And again, that's why I talk about this and people are like, why are you picking on women? I'm like, it's because people with X chromosomes only, they have less water in their bodies. They have more fat in their bodies. They just process alcohol differently. And that's why the scale for men and women, like men can have two drinks. Women can have one. You always see there's a difference. That's not just like for fun or because men are traditionally you're heavier than women. That's because our bodies process it differently.

And because women tend to drink specifically to cope versus, you know, if I'm drinking like, oh, again, this wine makes my fish taste good or something versus I need to drink because it's five o'clock. My kids are driving me crazy. Again, you're creating that need for a substance that's coping and women have more of a tendency to cope. And why wouldn't we? Because we're told it's five o'clock somewhere. We're told. Right.

you whine, I whine. We're told that you need to drink to parents. So why wouldn't we believe those things? Yeah. And now there's like a whole uniform. There's like a whole vibe already set right up for you. And this bridges into the question of like whether or not women are more susceptible to cults, which is a question that I am asked from time to time. But I think like the more interesting line of questioning is like, why do cults

seem to offer something that women need more than men. 100%. I would say the reasons I was drinking were the same reasons I joined an MLM. I make this parallel all the time. Like I was looking for something outside of myself. I was looking for an escape. I was looking for, I don't even know what, but like it initially made me feel better.

Right. So I was trying to fix something that an MLM wouldn't fix, a cult wouldn't fix, alcohol wouldn't fix. And again, these systemic things, these not having a village, maybe not having a strong sense of self, you know, I needed to go to therapy. I didn't need wine. Right. Yeah. That's so often like an answer that comes up. But then fucking therapists can be cult leaders, too. I know. I know.

Stay vigilant, y'all. Watch your damn back. Okay, so then I want to get into some more fun questions. What are some of the most ridiculous, culty pieces of merch that you've seen in mom culture? Oh, all right. A couple of things here. So the fact that during the pandemic, drinking among women went wild.

way up. We really saw this. And that's when a lot of the statistics around, gosh, more women are dying than ever from alcohol came out. And also from that, alcohol companies were like, sweet, let's cash in on this. So that's why we see so many single serve alcohol cans, like by the checkout everywhere, right? Easy to grab. So there was this one thing, it was COVID and Tropicana, the orange juice company, came out with this promo and it was a mimosa fridge that you could hide place

So what they did, and they were very transparent about this campaign. They said, okay, we see the data that more people are drinking. And so we're going to create a product that people can win. It was like this promo where it looks like a cabinet, but it's actually a mimosa fridge, or it looks like a toolbox and it's actually a mimosa fridge. And it's like,

So you knew women were drinking in secret. And so you're creating a product in response to that. So that was just like, ew, right? Ew. Like that's such a risk factor. That is so sinister. The cringiest ones are the ones that are on kids' clothes. And you can Google, I mean, if you look on Amazon, there's thousands of these things. Like my mommy drinks because I cry. Stop it. Oh, oh yeah. Yes. One of them was like, my mom doesn't need a wine stopper.

or something like that. Like a lot of them, the kids clothes are the worst, the worst. Oh my God. But yeah, lots of those little tropes. Like it's, you know, again, that it's five o'clock somewhere during the pandemic. It was really rampant. Even in like Trader Joe's, I took a picture of a sign. It was like homeschool supplies and it was over the wine section. Stop that right now. Cult of Trader Joe's. You should know better. Stick to cookie butter. I,

I know. Stick to like terrible cereal and whatever. But, you know, kids see that. Kids go by that and see that. So I think that the cultiest things is when kids see things or when things are written in a way that it's like, oh, mom drinks because of me. Like mom has to do this to deal with me. So the things that send the message to the kids are,

I mean, when, you know, if you have a shirt that says, you know, I love wine or whatever, that's about you. It's like a really lame shirt. Right. But when it's like, I wine because he wines or something like that. Oh, you see the difference? Like, it's like, I drink because of you. Those are the cringiest. Oh, that's so damaging. Yeah, it is damaging. So a couple more questions. And I feel like I kind of know in my soul and I'm scared of the answer, but like,

What is the worst case scenario here? Because when we're trying to evaluate these modern day cults, we're like, okay, yes, it's ritualistic. It's fanatical. It's creepy. But like, how bad is it really? What's the worst that can come of wine mom culture?

So again, it's the lack of informed consent. It's just people drinking and not understanding what it's doing to them. And all of a sudden, like, oh, no, I have a fatty liver or I have cirrhosis and now I can't do anything about it. I mean, the good thing is if you're having health problems, like there's usually a trail. But there are a lot of women who I've met, I've worked with who are like, I didn't know until it got really bad.

It's just the not being able to evaluate this substance that we take as a given as something that we have to be careful with until it's too late. Again, until we have the health problems, until our marriage falls apart or whatever. I think that really is the worst case scenario. It's just the lack of informed consent that I think is really what needs to change about it. I'm not a prohibitionist. You want to drink, drink. My husband drinks, my friends drink, I don't care.

But knowing what you are drinking, knowing what's in it, knowing what it's doing to you, knowing that if you're using it, these are the things that can happen. Whether you think you're an alcoholic or not, whether you came from a line of alcoholics or not, it doesn't matter. Like it doesn't discriminate. Well, that's why it's a cult because like they're never going to be transparent about what's really going on. No. Ever. Ever.

And also because there are like so many mainstream institutions supporting this cult, like from the patriarchy to Tropicana, you know? Do you know anyone whose life has gotten really fucked by this cult? Oh, lots of people. Oh my gosh. Yes. Any anecdotes to share for the pod?

I mean, I know a lot of people who have gotten DUIs. And I think the other culty thing, and I will say this because I have been there as a person who's gotten a DUI, is that societally, you will have people who still cheer you on and kind of brush under the rug like, oh, we've all driven drunk. And that's scary. Like, that's a scary thing, right? That this is just something that people do. And we think, well, it's okay, as long as you don't get caught.

Kind of a thing. Like that's a very dangerous like belief to have. Like I was stunned when I got a DUI, how many people were like, it's all right. You know? Yeah. But a lot of the anecdotal stories I hear again, working with women are really, you know, not realizing how much it's impacting your kids. And again, been there, like having a parent who drinks is adverse child. What is it called? Ace? Yeah. Yeah. The ACE test. Adverse child experience, right? Yeah. Yeah.

So I am a part of my kids will always be children of a parent who is a substance abuser. And they were young when I got sober, but their childhood, it was still more chaotic because of it. There were times they didn't feel safe because of it. And those are real things.

And so that's the kind of stuff that I hear. It's like, okay, yeah, I'm fine. I lived, whatever. But I pass that down to my kids. And I think that is the hardest part about YMOM culture and talking about YMOM culture that, you know, it is the most shaming too. And it's

It's like if you feel shame versus, you know, saying that in a way, it's like, it's not you. It's the alcohol. However, you have to think about what your kids are seeing. And this doesn't mean, again, you have to be like a totally sober person. But do we need to have alcohol at every birthday party? Does a two-year-old birthday party need to be a kegger? Probably not. Do we need to have alcohol at every celebration? No.

Should I be drinking when we're out to dinner because I have to drive the kids home? And all of those things that, again, it's more weight on our shoulders as moms. It's all the things we have to deal with. But, you know, that's the anecdotal stuff I hear a lot is I had to have this conversation with my kid. And, you know, that's heartbreaking. And I've been there. I am that person. Okay. So last question before we play a little game. One of the cultiest red flags, in my opinion, is when there are these steep exit costs and

And I feel like there are pretty serious exit costs in terms of wine mom culture. Like if you stop drinking or get out of this quote unquote cult, you might lose your tribe of fellow moms, your besties. You might have to confront this sense of shame that you'd been pushing down for so long, like admitting that you have a problem. That alone could prevent you from leaving this cult. What would you say are the gravest exit costs here?

And what would your advice be for like pushing past those and finally getting out of this? I mean, that's the reason like I kept drinking for a long time because when you're drinking because you have shame about things, you're going to keep drinking. Like, why do I want to confront this thing? Or if it's something that, again, systemically, there's nobody helping you. Why wouldn't you keep drinking? So like the exit costs personally are.

can be very high because you do get that. Like you have the drink and you're like, oh, for 20 minutes, I feel much, much better. And then I'll deal with the hangover later. I'll deal with the shame later. I'll deal with all of the other, it doesn't help anything, but it makes me feel better in the moment. So then you've got this whole personal thing of, again, I might have to go to a therapist. I might have to evaluate some things in my life. I may have to change some things at work. That's a lot.

And socially, yeah, if you're in, which I was in a very big social network of people who drink and treading around that without feeling like you're pushing your beliefs to your needs on other people can be really hard to navigate. And you find at first, a lot of the pushback is for people who are maybe questioning their own use. Right. Or maybe they're just worried. Like, what does this say about me if she thinks she's drinking too much and I drink just as much as her?

that can be hard to get around. And then also like, okay, if I go out, my husband and I, if something we do together, it's infused in a lot of relationships. Like my spouse and I, we would beer make, you know, we made beer. Like we went to wine tastings and it's hard to think of new things to do. So it's just, there's all these little roadblocks. What is it going to do for me socially? I will say again, things are really changing and,

And there's a lot of alternatives. There's really great like non-alcoholic beers and wines that are really good replacements. Oh, yeah. I could easily start a cult surrounding this store that just opened in my neighborhood called Soft Spirits. They're like these really classy little non-alcoholic cocktails and wines. They're fabulous. Totally cult fodder.

Very cute. Yeah. So there's a lot of replacements now. And I think there is more of an understanding, at least than there was 10 years ago when I was questioning this stuff, of people who are like, yeah, I just don't drink because it doesn't make me feel good. Or I'm not going to drink tonight because I've got to go for a run in the morning. Or just the understanding, the cause and effect of it, that again, it's not just some people can drink and some people can't. And some people are addicts and some people aren't.

I do think that is changing. But again, the exit cost of thinking like, oh, if I tell people I'm not drinking, and then later I do, or if I tell people I'm not drinking, are they going to question if I had a problem? Are they going to think there's something wrong with me? That can be hard to deal with. And my advice would be, no is a complete sentence, I would say. You know, you have to think about why, and that's a very culty term, think about your why. But

Think about like, why am I questioning this? And what benefit is it giving me? Right? Again, if I'm drinking, because I think it makes this meal taste good, that's a whole different thing than I can't make it through the day without drinking. Yeah. And that's worth, you know, just listening to yourself. And, you know, is it taking away more than it's giving? And it doesn't say anything about you. I think the most important thing to remind yourself is like alcohol is an addictive substance and anyone who uses it long enough can become addicted to it. So just

It's not your fault if you are or if you feel like it's becoming a problem or you just want to kick it to the curb and finding it difficult. Like, it's not you. Yeah. And like, you are someone without wine. Like, I think a lot of these culty brands and substances make you feel like this thing is your whole personality and your whole identity. But like, Rosé is not a personality. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I was champagne girl again. Like I was like, who am I if I'm not doing this thing? Who am I if I'm not drinking this? Like this is who I am. This is what makes me who I am. And come to find out it really wasn't. And it was actually taking away from who I was. And it was actually like drowning my intuition. And like so much more came out of it that was really great. Not that it wasn't hard. Yeah. No, that's such a good point. Like I remember when my best friend got sober, we were 26.

And I was like nervous for a second because I was like, oh, well, I was so happy for her. Like, you know, it's something that needed to happen. And she was very resolute in her decision. And she looked gorgeous. There were already so many benefits. But I was also like kind of like what you were saying. I was like, I wonder what we're going to do now. Yeah.

But then it turned out that her personality, like, I mean, it was like coming up from being underwater. Like she was just so clear to me and to herself for the first time in forever. And I was like, I cannot believe I was concerned for even half a second that we would like struggle to know what to do or like what to talk about because now there's like so much more to do and so much more to talk about. That's the cult of alcohol. It makes you think like you need this to be interesting. Yeah.

It's the opposite. Yeah. And I think, too, if your friends are like worried or, you know, you're worried about that. What I found and I have found this to be true with a lot of people is like my social network. I kind of had to take a little break from some people for a while. And then those relationships came back and they were fine. Like I even now, like I was drinking. We went to this birthday party and I was drinking a non-alcoholic Guinness.

And one of the people was like, is that non-alcoholic? Like they were, it's so funny because it was someone who was very concerned when I quit drinking that is now like such a champion for me not drinking. So like those, those relationships do find a way. Yeah. At the end of the day, I mean, we'll talk about it, but at the end of the day, it's not really like leaving NXIVM. Like you can still be friends with your former wine moms. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Totally. Yeah.

Okay, now we're going to pivot to playing a little game. It's a very simple game. It's just Would You Rather Cult of Wine Moms Edition. The first round. Would you rather listen to a screaming toddler for 12 hours straight with no coping mechanisms or listen to celebrity megachurch Christian pop music for 72 hours straight?

Oh my God, the toddler. No question. No question. The cult leader that is your little infant is nowhere near as bad as the cult of Christian pop music. Just horrible. Next round. Would you rather have to wear a t-shirt that reads, boxed wine is just a juice box for mom every day for the next year, or wear a MAGA hat every day for the next week?

Oh, that's mean. Oh. Oh, my God. That's horrible. Okay. I have to pick the t-shirt. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's saying a lot. Yeah, it really is. I mean, the loophole is like you could just wear the MAGA hat and leave your house for seven days. Oh, that's true. Oh. No, I can't. No, spiritually, it would be harmful. I feel like that would be bad karma. Okay. Would you rather...

go on a week-long beach vacation with a gaggle of wine moms and do as the wine moms do, or attend a Mary Kay leadership conference for a weekend. Again, this is so cruel. These are bespoke for you, Emily. I know. Can I go on the wine mom trip and not drink or do I have to drink?

You do not have to drink. Okay, then I'd for sure go on the wine mom vacation. Yes, that's totally fine. Yeah, it is actually fun to be sober around people making a damn fool of themselves. Oh, it's super fun. It's entertaining. It's super fun. It is. Yeah. Okay, last round. Would you rather accidentally post a drunk rant about parenting to Facebook that you meant to text your best friend?

Or accidentally tweet something critical of Taylor Swift that you meant to text your best friend. Oh, parenting. Parenting. I would get, like, murdered if I posted something about Taylor Swift.

I still haven't been murdered by a Swifty yet. Not even the Gaylors have come for me somehow. Oh, boy. I don't know. I think I balance pandering to them and like roasting them. It's a delicate dance. Okay. This has been such a lovely conversation. Thank you for bringing your knowledge and vulnerability and expertise and nuance to this chat about the cult of wine moms. Emily, if folks want to keep up with you and your work, where can they do that? Yeah.

Yeah. So if you are a mom who is questioning their alcohol use or maybe not, maybe so, maybe sober curious, SoberMomSquad.com and you don't have to be a mom, please check us out. We've got a bunch of free information and stuff for you. And then if you want to find out about me, EmilyLynnPaulson.com and all the socials on Emily Lynn Paulson and love for you to say hi. And you have a great book. Tell the people. Yeah.

Yeah. So my first book is Highlight Reel, and it's my recovery memoir. And then the book I wrote last year is Hey Hun, Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lives Behind Multi-Level Marketing. And it's all about my entrance, indoctrination, and exit from the cult of multi-level marketing. A great companion read to cultish. Read them both for your book club. Gorgeous. Thank you.

All right, Emily, we have officially analyzed the cult of wine moms, I would say. Now is the time for my ultimate question for you. The cult of wine moms, which of our cult categories do you think it falls into? A live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out? Okay, this is going to sound odd.

But wine itself, like live your life. Again, it's legal. You're an adult. Do what you want. But the cult of wine moms, that's a watch your back slash get the fuck out.

Because again, it's the messaging implying you must drink to be a mom and that the kids are the reason you must drink. That it's this requirement. That messaging is not good. So the damaging part of wine moms isn't the wine. It's the messaging around it. So wine, live your life. Wine mom culture, get the fuck out. Yeah. Weirdly, I think it is both a live your life and a get the fuck out at the same time. The average of the two being a watcher back. Yeah.

Watch your back. Watch your tits. Watch your liver. Moms in America just need to be watching their back from all angles. Just women in general. Like from freaking weddings to momfluencers. Like society is just trying to get us good. Well, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty.

Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of The Podcabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cold.

This episode was made with production help from Katie Epperson and Reese Oliver. Thank you as well to our partner, All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

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