The Cult of Taylor Swift, Part 2
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I am so excited to tell you about this iPhone game that I am newly absolutely obsessed with. It's called June's Journey. If you're a true crime fan, but you don't like anything too violent, I feel like this game is totally going to be up your alley. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game that takes place in the 1920s, so the aesthetic is very colorful.

and vintagey. It centers on this protagonist named June who has to travel back to her family's luxurious island estate to solve the mystery of who murdered her sister. And you participate by finding hidden clues to help uncover the murder mystery. And I love that you also get to decorate the island estate as you go, which makes the game so fun and aesthetic and relaxing. I feel like I'm generally pretty bad at iPhone games.

Hey,

Sounds like a cult pod. My name's Audra calling from New York City and I'm definitely a Swifty. And I think one culty aspect of the fandom that has felt different in the past two or so years is the fan obsession with the Easter eggs. It used to be that people kept an eye out for like

her nail polish colors or the capitalized letters in an album's lyrics pamphlet just to see who a song might be about or what the vibe of the next album might be. But now it feels like people are obsessed with dissecting everything she does down to like the name and release year of a piece of clothing she wears or the number of vowels in one of her tweets. And just enough of the conclusions people draw end up having merit

to keep people looking for clues in increasingly more places. So it's just taking up more and more of these people's time and it's,

Super culty. Hi, my name is Avery. I'm from Denver, Colorado. I think the way that the Taylor Swift cult has changed since eras is I think people are really realizing and feeling nostalgic about how Taylor Swift and her music has been present through their entire lives. I went through elementary school, middle school, high school, college, and now even post-grad with Taylor Swift. She's had new music through every phase of my life.

So she feels like a fixture. Hello, I'm Helen from Brooklyn. And I think the cultiest aspect of a post-Eris tour Taylor Swift is definitely the outfits. To say nothing of the willow cloaks. And I mean, anytime there's a cloak involved, you know, it's pretty culty. But the fact that this woman had us all dressing up, not just for her concert, but just as excited to dress up for a movie theater experience is unheard of, in my opinion. Hi.

this is Mimosa from Finland and as I am from a country where ERA's tour is not coming to, I have seen how much effort Swifties have been putting into just getting the tickets and being able to attend. So it feels like the tour itself has become bigger than

life. My name is Maeve. I'm from Washington, D.C. A lot of millennials had children and they now have little mini-Swifties running around who were just born into it and have never known a world without Taylor Swift. So it's, I think, a new culty thing that I've noticed, but maybe not necessarily one of the scary ones, which do exist. ♪

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. It's me. Hi. I'm the problem. It's me, your host, Amanda Montell, author of the books Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming The Age of Magical Overthinking, which will be published on April 9th. Every week on the show, you're going to hear about a different group or guru that puts the cult in culture, from SoulCycle to the Supreme Court, to try and answer the big question,

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? Oh my God. Where to begin? The cult of Taylor Swift.

There was a second when I was considering doing this bonus part two introduction using only Taylor Swift song titles and lyrics because there are so many now. But then I decided against it because I don't want to pander too much to the Swifties during this episode. And I also want even those outside the cult to be able to understand what I'm saying. So in the end, I decided that might not go over all too well. ♪

Swiftie jokes. Okay, it was high time, some might even say overdue, that A Cult of Taylor Swift Part 2 episode hit.

hit the airwaves. Because our Cult of Taylor Swift part one episode was recorded and posted right as Taylor's Midnight's album was coming out. I mean, back then we were thinking like, how much bigger could this cult even really get? How much more power even is there for Taylor Swift to claim? How much more charisma can she generate? How much more fanaticism and ritual can she inspire? But jokes on us because we're

post-midnights. And in the midst of the era's tour era, holy friendship bracelets, shit has only gotten ever more cultish. Sorry, I'm just gonna keep slipping those Taylor Easter eggs in here. I can't help myself. But let's get serious, because it's really stunning how...

Prior to the Heiress Tour, I felt like the cult of Swifties was still kind of at the fringes of society. Of course, Taylor Swift's music is as mainstream as it gets. She's a household name. But Swifty culture and rituals and lore were still a mystery to the average everyday person. The Heiress Tour changed all that, rendering the cult of Taylor Swift less like an enigmatic sect on the edges of society and more like...

something like the cult of capitalism. It's the air we are all breathing. Because the Heiress Tour was truly this so-called monocultural, world-dominating event in a culture of microtrends. You couldn't miss it if you tried. It was like one of those surreal scenes in a movie where someone is haunted by some figure and every time they go outside or turn on the TV or switch on the radio, that

thing is following them. When Taylor Swift was in Los Angeles, where I live, I felt like I couldn't even go outside without confronting Swifty fanaticism. It's not even a cult anymore. It is a full blown motherfucking religion. Maybe that's another way of putting it. Pre-Midnight's, pre-Era's tour, Swifties were more like Scientology level. Everybody knew about it, but not everybody was in it.

Now it's fully Protestantism. It is everywhere. Don't cancel me, Swifties. It's just an analogy. I love you. I respect you. I'm fascinated by your culture. And I want to spend a few minutes unpacking how the cult of Taylor Swift has changed, in my opinion, over the past year.

Now, for those who maybe haven't listened to the original Sounds Like a Cult, Cult of Taylor Swift episode, I'm going to re-air it this week because there have been a lot of requests to cover this cult recently. People saying, I don't get it. I'm rubbernecking at it. I feel like I cannot question this cult because it's so powerful and Swifties are so devout. If you even ask a respectful question,

question like, hey, what's all the fuss about? You will be met with an extreme reaction. And so this part two bonus is here, whether you are an unabashed Taylor Swift stan, a proper Swifty, whether you're a closet Swifty, that's a term I've heard bubbling up in private conversations I've had with folks in the wild, or whether

you're absolutely sick of Taylor Swift and don't understand this cult whatsoever, hopefully these next 15 minutes will shed some light. I myself did not go to the Arras tour, but I did have a friend of mine fly from New York to Los Angeles for 48 hours and spend $2,000 she didn't really have to attend...

VIP. She did procure me one of those coveted dark blue sweatshirts at the merch table, and I like it and feel represented by it because it's very subtle Taylor merch. It doesn't have her face on it. It has Taylor Swift written in very, very soft matte black letters on the front. It's a sort of if you know, you know piece of merch, which means that outsiders or haters won't necessarily clock it as Taylor Swift merch, but

insiders will. And I like cozying up to proper Swifties because I like to be able to softly interrogate them about their fanaticism because not all Swifties are created equal. They all have their slightly different denominations, level of extremism. And I like learning about what Taylor Swift means to them. While I did not attend the Aris tour myself, I did watch the full concert on YouTube. And the most curious part about the concert to me

was how very, very different the energy was on stage versus off stage. Off stage, Swifties are going absolutely ape shit. They're like whipping their bodies around, turning looks to the gods, whether they're dressed up as a full-blown Christmas tree as a nod to the fact that Taylor grew up on a Christmas tree farm,

to Speak Now era, purple halter dress. There is a whole sort of like Lord of the Rings-esque universe to pull from when it comes to the aesthetic, the rituals. And watching Swifties in the audience truly gives me the same feeling as when I watch videos of Pentecostals speaking in tongues. And what's going on physiologically is the same. There is this dissociative aspect.

when you get lost in a religious group language ritual like that. It puts you in a state of escape, in a state of transcendence, and in a really vulnerable state where a leader could potentially have great influence on you. Then I look at Taylor Swift on stage and she is cool as a motherfucking cucumber. She does not miss a

beat down to these sort of bestie moments where she's addressing the audience in her very casual, charming girl next door. I know you girl type of way. It's perfect.

It is flawless in a way that feels robotic, but the followers do not care. They are in the presence of their exalted queen. They're all engaging in this collective ritual and it makes people go fucking bonkers. So that juxtaposition of someone sober as a judge,

on stage, having this command over followers who are losing their shit. I mean, it's the secular evangelical tent revival of 2023.

So speaking of that juxtaposition of energies, I kind of want to lead by quoting a New Yorker journalist named Amanda Petrusik, who attended the Heiress Tour and wrote a review of it that I really admired because it provided outsiders or even haters a window into what this event means to attendees. But it was also really generous. It wasn't snarky at all. And I want to read a couple quotes from it.

So Petrusek's review says, From afar, Swift's fans' possessiveness appears both mighty and frightening. Still, the intensity of her fandom manifests so differently offline. Swift's performance might be fixed, perfect, but what happens in the crowd is messy, wild, benevolent, and beautiful. Swift's fandom is tied to the primal urge to have something to protect and be protected by.

In recent years, community, one of our most elemental human pleasures, has been decimated by COVID, politics, technology, capitalism. These days, people will take it where they can get it. Swift often sings about alienation and yearning. She has written many songs that describe her devotion as punishment to be endured. She believes that the force of her affection will push people away. But her fans have remained silent.

They have buoyed her. In turn, she has given them everything. I love those lines. And what Amanda Petrusik is really speaking about there is that like Swift sings so much in her lyrics about feeling rejected, especially by romantic partners in her life. Like a partner's love is conditional or only there for a weekend, but her fans love is relentless.

They wouldn't leave her no matter what she does. And that creates a kind of parasocial codependency between Taylor and her Swifties that I think is felt on both sides. What the Heiress Tour really showed us is that Taylor Swift has built an incredibly robust religious world that provides not just one aesthetic and set of traditions, but a collection of them. So there's now an energy, a uniform, a set of sacred texts

for anyone, no matter what you're going through in your life. And by anyone, I mean mostly an audience of young women whose emotions have been historically belittled, dismissed, and are now validated in this explosively meaningful way by a woman who's kind of taken over the fucking world. She's

She also provides them a space, whether online or in person. And of course, when you connect in person, that's a whole different kettle of fish. And in those massive stadiums, followers can develop their own set of community rituals, like the exchange of friendship bracelets at her concerts or dancing in a Midsommar-esque circle, all wearing the same outfits like Swifties were captured doing in the movie theaters during the showings of her era's tour film.

And the role of Taylor Swift as a quote-unquote cult leader is partially that of a deity. People definitely worship her on the level of a god. But I think it's actually more influential and more profound than a deity because she has mastered the art of making the...

parasocial, one-sided, plural you feel like the singular you. She interacts with her fans just enough but not too much. She's not like a god who you pray to but doesn't directly answer. You actually can go see her in person. And as perfect and literally staged as she is, she does sometimes actually listen to her fans' prayers. Like the demands from Swifties that she make Cruel Summer a single.

Her energy is like bestie meets nurturing parent figure meets prophet style savior meets, of course, musical entertainer and music has such a profound physiological effect on our bodies and minds. I mean, if that isn't cult charisma, I don't know what is. And but

because she's become so good at passing off money-making endeavors as like angelic little tokens of generosity for her loyalist fans, she's able to turn every ritualistic moment that comes to pass into a merchandising opportunity, whether it's releasing a film of her concert or collector's edition vinyl covers.

But what's fascinating also about Taylor Swift is that unlike certain cult leaders whose charisma is like really, really specific and their style of delivery is so sort of like peculiar and eccentric that it's not for everyone, Taylor Swift is kind of neutral enough that fans can project whatever they want onto her. And I actually think that that's the most underrated part of her appeal.

One of the reasons why I love talking to individual Swifties is that there is such a range of fans from those so-called closet Swifties to full-blown fanatical galers. That's one of her sort of more like conspiratorial fan sects who are absolutely convinced that Taylor Swift is queer and constantly dropping hints proving that the way that

you know, legit conspiracy theorists are always interpreting random events as proof of their convictions that some dark evil elite is secretly controlling the sociopolitical order. It's kind of like a soft pastelly version of that mentality. And the way that you engage with Taylor Swift has so much to do with your own individual identity. I love learning, like, when did any individual Swifty fall in love with her music?

Was it all the way back with her original country albums? Was it not until 1989, not until folklore and the pandemic? What's the wildest thing they'd potentially do in defense of their idol? What's the wildest thing that they have done? Have they had relationships damaged by getting into fights over Taylor Swift?

Recently at a birthday party, I met a Kaler in person, which is a subsect of Galer that specifically thinks that Taylor Swift and her friend Carly Kloss were at some point in a romantic relationship. And I asked her, like, is

is there anything that could convince you that this theory about Taylor Swift is not true? And this person who seemed like an otherwise like pretty reasonable individual, I'd never met her before, but you know, she was at this normal birthday party having normal conversations. She bold-faced admitted, nothing could prove to me that I'm wrong about this unless Taylor Swift showed up here and told me herself. It was like shockingly delusional. And it's not, it

It's not a big deal or anything because the conspiracy theory on the table here and the characters that we're talking about are not like religious extremists, political extremists. It's Taylor Swift. It's low stakes. But the cultish belief behind it is very similar, even if the aesthetic and the cinematic universe, so to speak, is not.

I've been looking into irrational belief for the past two years because of my new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking. And I understand that this Swifty was in large part motivated by confirmation bias. She had decided on a conclusion. Anything could be construed as an argument supporting that conclusion. And one of the reasons why no proof could matter to her is because this person,

Kaler lore is a belief that makes her feel seen. It makes her feel less alone. It's that thing that Amanda Petrusik said in her review. Engaging in this belief makes her feel protective of Taylor Swift and also protected by Taylor Swift. And I don't think Taylor ever would come forward and dispel the belief because she doesn't want to do anything to disturb whatever gives people that feeling, in part because I think it would mean she'd be losing a fan.

Obviously, as audience members, we can't ever know Taylor Swift's true self, whatever that even means. No matter how much the public, you know, attempts to dig and speculate about her private life, who can really know? But I do want to present a secondhand data point that might provide some food for thought. I have a friend who used to be an entertainment journalist like 10, 15 years ago.

And right at the very, very beginning of Taylor Swift's career, my friend went on tour with her for a very short period of time in order to write an entertainment cover story about her. This friend of mine is queer, non-binary, could potentially have a lot of validation to gain from Taylor Swift being queer. And so I asked, like, do you think Taylor Swift is gay? My friend said, from what I observed, absolutely the fuck not. Yeah.

Trigger warning for any Swifties who like don't want to hear even the mildest form of criticism from someone who spent a little bit of time with her. Actually, this isn't even criticism. It's just that what my friend said is that Taylor Swift was extremely people pleasing and vanilla. Her favorite food at the time was literally vanilla ice cream. And that's not a negative judgment necessarily because I was thinking some people think of vanilla as plain.

But vanilla as a flavor isn't actually plain. It is a flavor. In fact, it's a flavor that everybody likes because you can either just have it be sort of mild and delicious or you could add a million toppings on it, whatever you want, cookie crumbles, rainbow sprinkles, whatever.

And this, I think, is the ultimate cult leader quality, which I think Taylor Swift actually comes by pretty honestly. It's that ability to make everybody feel like she is speaking uniquely to them, that no matter who you are, she is your flavor.

She wants her fans to feel loved and for them to love her. She's a chameleon, a shapeshifter, a mirror with just enough flavor that doesn't feel dishonest or creepy. She has to stay vanilla to maintain her power. She can't get too political, even when certain fans want her to, which I actually personally think is probably good because think about when celebrities stray too far outside their lane into politics.

She can get culty on a whole nother level. Taylor Swift stays in her lane. She just like is driving a monster truck through it. Again, a lot of artists are too specific, but not Taylor Swift. She's the exact leader each of her fans wants her to be. At least that's how she appears. And

And that's why her stand-up dynamics can turn as zealous and religious as crusaders, because a threat to any single Taylor Swift song or belief or behavior is a threat to their identity. As you might be able to tell, I have been thinking a lot about this stuff because the first chapter in my new book is called Are You My Mother, Taylor Swift? A Note on the Halo Effect.

which is a cognitive bias that plays a significant role in the sort of cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement that we see in our culture right now. It's truly one of my favorite chapters. It talks not only about how we worship celebrities and then knock them off their pedestals as soon as they quote unquote betray us, but

also how those tendencies connect to our relationships to our own parents. This chapter is like analytical and pop culture-y, but it's also deeply personal. I talk about my relationship to my own mother in it. So no matter where on the...

celebrity stand spectrum you fall, I think that the book might appeal to anyone listening to this episode. These culty, voracious stand dynamics are just endlessly fascinating to me. And I do feel like I was able to express them best in that chapter. So anyway, I just wanted to tell you about it. The book is called The Age of Magical Overthinking, and it doesn't come out till April 9th, but it's available for pre-order now.

Anywho, I hope you enjoyed this little updated analysis. Thank you so much for listening. And now I am going to be re-airing our classic now year old episode. I cannot believe it's only been a year on the cult of Taylor Swift. The views expressed in this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

Hi, I'm Ashley from SoCal and I think the cultiest thing about Taylor Swift is how she hides clues, references, and puzzles in her posts on social media and how her fans immediately scramble to try and figure out what her next album is gonna be. Hi, my name is Nicole and I am from Chicago. Her fans are unable to admit that sometimes she is in the wrong and I think that her fans are constantly wanting to victimize her.

and view her as an underdog instead of someone who's already won the game 10 times over. Hi, I'm Layla, and I'm calling from California. I think the cultiest thing about Taylor Swift is how carefully curated her image is and how her brand changes so drastically depending on what quote unquote era she's in. You know, you see snake emojis and dark lipstick and think reputation. Pink and butterflies are lover. Cardigans and forests are folklore.

And fans play into these aesthetics too, so with every new album, you have people totally revamping their Instagram feeds. It's like cultiness squared because you have the cultiness of categorizing yourself into niche aesthetics on social media, and then the cultiness of having that brand be dictated by a celebrity.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern-day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina, and I'm a comedian. I'm Amanda Montel, author of the book Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism. Every week on our show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture, from crypto to the skincare industry, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

I can safely say I have never been more intimidated to cover a topic than the cult of Taylor Swift. No, I completely agree. I think this one's scary. I mean, even just mentioning Taylor Swift in our episode, The Cult of Celebrity Stands. Season one. Season one was scurry, scurry. But I do feel at the end of the day, since I am a low-key Swifty, we are going to be providing a full 360 analysis of the situation. I have.

I have at times not identified as full-blown Swifty, but have like really connected with her music. Like when I was 20 years old and living in Brooklyn during the fall time, that's when I was really pounding Red, the original Red release. And I really identified with it then. But that's the thing about Taylor Swift fundamentalism is that I often feel like you're not allowed to be a casual Taylor Swift listener. That's so true. I like that you called it fundamentalism because at the end of the day, I mean, all of her

songs and all of her albums are just so relatable. I mean, they're either about being a certain age, falling in love, getting your heart broken. Those are all things that we can relate to. And if we can't relate to them, we make up scenarios thinking that we're in love and then we listen to the music and romanticize our life. That's what I did in high school. I like never had a high school relationship, but...

I suppose listening to Fearless was sort of my first introduction to what being young and in love felt like. Oh, for sure. I mean, the first time I like really, really listened to Taylor Swift was after I broke up with my freshman year boyfriend, LOL Gay. And I listened to the song back to December as if like he had broken my heart. I ultimately did break up with him because I didn't want to be with him.

But he was hot and cool and then went on to date another hot, cool girl. So I was like still salty about the whole situation. My only serious romantic tryst in high school was also with a gay man.

Wait, no, that one wasn't gay. Oh. The gay guy I dated was my college boyfriend. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Who I lost my virginity to. Yeah, I lost my virginity to a gay guy. I always say I should have known he was gay because every time I asked him to go down on me, he was like, yes, queen. The high school one was straight and we only did like hand stuff in his basement. You're so right. Taylor Swift is a

populist cult leader queen. She's able to appeal to the lowest common denominator of basic and as our Cult of Weddings guest Gia Tolentino astutely put it, it feels so good to be basic. It does. Much like Disney adults, Taylor Swift is actually the perfect sounds like a cult topic because on the surface it seems really low stakes and really innocent. She's just a pop star who's worshipped by all these sort of twee young women but

But underneath the surface, it gets incredibly fanatical, incredibly culty in a way that sometimes sends a shock through my system the way that I will sometimes watch like NXIVM documentaries and Jonestown documentaries and be like, this is frightful. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's because a lot of Taylor Swift's fandom and cults.

cult following is in their feelings. Taylor Swift gets them into her cult in a place where they're feeling very vulnerable, in a place where they're feeling like they don't know what to do next. And then they listen to Taylor's music and they're like, you helped me get through this.

darkest moments of my life. And now I owe you my life. The way that you describe that is absolutely accurate and is utterly symmetrical with the way that people have spoken about Keith Raniere when they first got involved with NXIVM, Heaven's Gate when they first got involved with Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles, the founder of that cult. The stakes for the cult of Taylor Swift and Swifty are obviously much lower and the consequences are different. But the fanaticism is the same.

that makes sense. That's happened to me. I have to check myself because I can become such an obsessive fan that that's why I really am not a 100% cult fan of anything because the tides could turn and it could become my whole life. So even when Taylor's version of Red came out and All Too Well came out, I was kind of going through a little something myself and I listened to All Too Well so much. It helped me get through that. And then I started going on YouTube.

and watching videos of her and watching all of her fandom overanalyze every move she made. I was like, I need to step it back and check myself. Being a host of this podcast, you can notice when you're starting to trip and fall too deeply into a cult. But I think what you're getting at is the fanaticism of Taylor Swift's fandom

which parallels the fanaticism of so many destructive cults, is really motivated by us as humans not wanting to feel alone. And Taylor Swift really helps people feel like they are a part of something larger than themselves and that they're not the only person going through something.

But it's so funny because like I don't even get a toe in the door in culty communities. I have been conditioned to be so skeptical and so cynical. And when I watch YouTube videos of hardcore Swifties reacting to her album drops, for example, and I'm so horrified and I'm rubbernecking and I'm treating it like true crime. Part of me thinks like maybe I'm so horrified because a fraction of me is jealous. Of her or of her fandom? Of her fandom. Because it feels so good to just surrender to a group like that. Yeah.

And we tend to be hypercritical of groups that remind us of ourselves. So much in the way that people who are the most homophobic or people who might feel a little bit gay themselves, like the people who are the most critical of Disney adults are jealous of people who are that willing to indulge in something a little cringe. And I think like there is a basic white girl cult follower deep down inside of me. And that's what makes me afraid of her fandom. Oh, for sure. I mean, you are.

literally a girl who has a romantic life so there's a little bit of that in all of us yeah wearing pink puffy sleeves and who loves cats yeah and I think the best way to treat that little draw and pull that you have is to go to concerts I've never been to a Taylor Swift concert but I have

have been to a Bad Bunny concert. I recently went and I will not shut up about it. It was like something took over me. And after I left the concert, I just felt so cathartic. It was just something that I needed to get out of my system in a stadium full of Latinos. There are bands that I

I love and I don't become obsessed with them from like a culty, fanatic perspective. But I do track when they'll be in the city that I'm in and I'll go to the concert. And in that two hours, I will let go of everything, my ego, and just like be in the moment and surrender to the music. I relate so much to that. One of the happiest moments.

experiences I've had in recent memory was microdosing on mushrooms at the Sylvan Esso concert at the Greek. I have never been so present. Like, it feels transcendent. I literally said after I left that show, I was like, I feel like Sylvan Esso was holding me. I wrote my college essay about going to a concert. Yeah.

It was like, what was the most transcending experience? And I was like, Passion Pit. The year was 2014. That's legit. Yeah. So before we get into it, we just want to give a little disclaimer. The cult of Taylor Swift is so complex. There's no way we could cover all of it here. I mean, there's her persona, the cult of her personality.

personality. And then there's her whole flock of hardcore Swifties. And then within that fan cult, there are different denominations and irrational beliefs and conspiracy theories that people dedicate hours and hours to unpacking and defending. For example, there are whole subgroups of her fandom called Kalers and Galers who are constantly sharing clues pointing to Taylor Swift being queer. And we don't have time to dig into all

all of the weeds of that. So we just want to warn y'all that we might need to do a part two of this episode because as we were saying, even though Taylor Swift is just a pop star, we could low-key describe the whole story of Heaven's Gate in an hour more easily than the cult of Taylor. Also because the Heaven's Gate members...

are dead and won't come for us. Yeah, exactly. That's one aspect that is less scary. There are parts of the Taylor Swift cult that she leans into intentionally. Obviously, it's been so amazing for her career that people's love for her goes way beyond music. And I think that's because she's been around for just so long. We grew up with her and it's a whole aesthetic and identity that comes with rituals like hunting for Easter egg clues about future songs, which she puts in her posts and hierarchies like being blessed to come to one of her

private listening parties. I mean, there's even a Starbucks drink. And there's also uniform. We can all kind of recognize like chunky sweaters and side braids and heart-shaped sunglasses and cups of tea and cats. I was actually going to say that if you're in the cult of Taylor Swift, it's mostly that like you're obsessed with cats. Yeah. The same way that she is. I love cats. I love red lipstick. It's giving Christian modesty blogger vibes. That is exactly it. Yeah. And it

this is such a genius marketing technique because it comes back to that idea of the identity template that we touch on all the time, where in this particular time in history, when there's at least the illusion of so many options for who to be and what to think, it just feels so comforting to have this guiding light like, I'm a Swiftie, and this is how Swifties act, and other Swifties are my tribe, and followers can become dependent on that identity to feel whole, which is, I think, part of why they're so protective of it. Of

Of course you want to not have a million options and just follow your leader. I don't even know what deodorant to use these days, you know? But her fans really do worship her as this enlightened leader. If you combine the most popular girl in school with your best friend and a mythical goddess, that's how people feel about her and her songs. There's also like this elitism where if you don't get her songs or if you don't think they're good, then there's clearly something profoundly wrong.

wrong with you. I felt that way about when people didn't like the movie Everything, Every Girl at Once. I was like, you just don't get it. I feel that way about that movie too. I'm in the cult of that movie. Yeah, me too. And Bagels. The Everything Bagel. The Everything Bagel. It all comes back to it. It always goes back to Bagels or Bad Bunny. For me, it really always just goes back to Bad Bunny.

But watching videos of Swifties analyzing her lyrics is fascinating because it feels like Bible study. Yes. Like people are overanalyzing it, trying to figure out what their God's real message might have been. And I feel like her lyrics, like the Bible to Christians or Disney movies to Disney adults, are like a scripture by which they live their lives. They're just next level inspiring because they relate to our love lives. And it's like,

Do I think Taylor Swift's music is good? Some of it? Yes, absolutely. And it should be okay only to like some of it or not at all. Do I think even her best songs are worthy of some of this fanaticism? For me, no. But I also know that it's not just about the music. It's about that feeling of being part of this passionate community that's so much bigger than yourself. And that's

possibly the most transcendent experience emotionally that a human can have beyond falling in love with one other person because you're literally in a giant group of people who are all bonding over the feeling of being in love with the same person. And that comes with jealousy and competition for attention. Like, who's the best cult member? Who's the best Swifty? But those feelings will still always come second to the much bigger and more spiritual calling to unite over this one brilliant all-knowing figure.

Yeah. The difference, though, is that Charles Manson knew all his followers personally, and Taylor Swift doesn't know any of these people personally. Although she does claim to lurk the internet for what everyone is saying. That is part of her genius, is that she's so good at making every one of her followers feel like she does know them. ♪

Hi, I'm Aviva calling from Melbourne. The Stans worship at her feet and they will buy all eight versions of folklore, spend every waking hour theorizing about her next move, and they will dogpile on anyone who dares to criticize her.

And she will encourage it by sending gifts or inviting fans to her house so everyone gets even more frenzied and desperate because of that tiny chance that she'll notice them. My name is Amy. I live in Northern Virginia, and I am a hardcore Swifty. You'll often hear the joke, like, our lord and savior, Taylor Allison Swift, always

worshiping at the altar of Taylor Swift or in the church of Taylor Swift. I'm totally guilty of this because I think it's funny because I'm like a heathen, but the deification is definitely culting.

So let's get some background on Taylor Swift. Who is she? Where did she come from? Pennsylvania, we talked about this, is a really alien place. Yeah, yeah. Crop circles. Crop circles, the Amish. Taylor Swift was famously born in 1989 after a group of aliens dropped her into Pennsylvania. No, I'm just kidding.

But she was born there and she has this America's sweetheart persona. She places a lot of emphasis on her family and her wholesome origins, but she doesn't mention Pennsylvania a lot because when she was young, as soon as she decided she wanted to pursue music, her family was like, okay, girly, let's do it. And they moved the whole family to Nashville. They helped her pursue music, which clearly a good investment on their part because look how it turned out. Seriously, people often forget that she's from Pennsylvania and not Nashville because I think it's

better for her relatable persona and her rags to riches narrative to let people believe that she's from the South. So she signed her record deal so young in 2004 at 14 years old and released her debut album two years later at 16 years old. She received her first top 40 hit, Tim McGraw, we all know that song, we love that song, off that album. And she released her first number one album, Fearless, in 2008, which was, may I add, a peak point in all of our youths.

Seriously, the economy was crashing. Hope was lost.

And there was Taylor Swift there to pick up the pieces. When I broke up with my boyfriend because I didn't like him fingering me. Sorry. No, it did feel bad back then. I remember my first fingering. I wasn't like wet. No, no. So I was like, is this what it's supposed to be like? No, I remember it hurt. But I was like, I have to just rip off the band-aid. It felt like someone was putting a tampon in me when I was like not on my period. Completely. Oh, my God. I'll never forget. I was just lying there being like, I can't be 16 years old and have never been fingered. I mean,

Same. And then once I did it, I was like, all right, I'll set off the checklist. I know. I was like, phew. Thank God. Never again. Everyone feels about losing their virginity. It's like not fun, but you got to do it at some point. I know. It should be fun or it should be at least like not fun for both parties. Yes. If I don't come, neither do you. Exactly. Exactly.

You could almost argue that she was pulling cult leader style antics with her family at a young age because she was able to convince them to make that move to Nashville for her career. And they had the money and the resources to do that. So this sort of implicit narrative that she's the small town, innocent country girl who came from nothing and struck it big on talent and luck alone is like not quite it. She wants to relate to the masses. So of course, it's just...

just very smart. It's brilliant. And I think the fact that she got started really young, combined with her very clever, populist, relatable songwriting instincts and her work ethic, because you can't knock it. She has a really impressive work ethic. Add all that to the music industry's conditioning turned her very quickly into this teen sensation with this mass, mass appeal. Since then, she's won 11 Grammys. She's had 42 nominations. She's the first and only woman solo artist to win the

the Grammy for Best Album of the Year three times for her solo recordings. And now she has over 225 million Instagram followers and could be considered one of the most famous people in modern history. Now that she's become this super famous person and she could not work a day in her life for the rest of her life and continue to have the fandom that she does, the fact that she's re-recording her albums just for her own sake of owning them, I think really shows...

Don't, you're looking at me like I'm in love with her. I'm just saying. You know what that says to me is that Taylor Swift's number one most passionate fanatical Swifty follower is Taylor Swift. She's her own biggest fan, but I also think she's a workaholic. Honestly, the way that I see it is that's really admirable from...

from a capitalist perspective as a woman who runs a business i just feel like she never gets praised for business woman thing we're girlbossing so close to the sun right now when you give the caveat that she like grew up rich

it's easy to discredit all the hard work that's also gone into it. No, it's really impressive. But it is super duper impressive and she's still working super hard and we're going to talk about it, but is that a good thing or is that a bad thing? How has that affected her and or the people who she influences mental health? Once you have it all and you have everything, you're still working as hard as possible to get more. And that's the most capitalist thing you could ever do. It's the cultiest thing you could ever do. It's when a certain benchmark of power, and Taylor Swift has a lot of it, is

Still not enough. But Taylor Swift's influence is so much cultier than just music industry domination. And we partially mean that as a compliment because as we know here at Sounds Like a Cult, not everything culty is bad. But Amanda, how did she build that cult leader persona? Taylor Swift is a master of turning the narrative. I don't know if you've heard, but America is cult.

Ruled by patriarchy. What? Just America alone? Wait, no, that's a good point because Taylor Swift is world famous and much of the world is ruled by patriarchy. As soon as Taylor Swift got really famous, she quickly turned into someone that the media and general pop culture love to hate. So she's often served as a target for a lot of society's general misogyny because she's not exactly cool.

or sexy in the male gazey way that the Kardashians are. For example, she's this sort of quirky, adorkable, sensitive oversharer and people have infamously critiqued her for that and have roasted her dating life in ways that felt sexist. There was the whole Kanye feud, of course, but she very quickly

turned the narrative to position herself in the face of all of that sexist criticism as this inspiring female empowerment icon, which really worked because people love a good versus evil story, especially among celebrities. And I think this kind of highlights the

her culture being very Southern to be this quaint, nice woman who never says anything mean herself, but gets other people to fight her battles for her. It goes back and forth at times where she was wrong and she shouldn't have. And also she put on these flashing lights of like, help me, help me. I'm this weak woman who needs help. And it's like, you are now an adult and you can speak for yourself. But

She was a child for most of her fame, and her company was controlled by adults around her. So even though she was this, like, rich, powerful person, she wasn't able to control her narrative until, like, a lot more recently. That's an interesting point. Like, how much of her public narrative was she able to drive herself, having been a minor for the beginning years of her stardom? But she definitely does foster.

flatten narratives into these good evil binaries. For sure. She certainly positions herself as a feminist idol, but it's ultimately a pretty shallow white feminist message a lot of the time that doesn't always feel genuine or inclusive. I mean, we can't forget casual, culturally appropriative music videos like Shake It Off.

There was that public feud with Nicki Minaj. And let's certainly not forget that her squad, which was high-key endorsing mean girl clickiness, had this very conformist uniform look of all tall, white, normatively gorgeous women, which to Taylor and her fan base was kind of the symbol of white feminists sticking together.

And it really feels like there's sort of this exclusivity around her cult that if you don't look a certain way and if you don't think a certain way and if you weren't raised a certain way, then you might not even be allowed to join. It's not hospitable for all women in the way that she makes it seem. Yeah. And yet...

It's scary to express criticism like this of Taylor Swift, not because of how she'll retaliate, but because of how her stans will retaliate. Yeah. And the stans are strong. I mean, when you have 225 million followers on Instagram, even if just 5% of those followers are stans to the death, that's thousands and thousands of people. Yes. Please be gentle with us.

I actually know that there is like a good significant overlap between Swifties and people who read my work. Again, I'm just like teetering up against the Swifty culture. Even just like the colors you use on the covers of your books. I mean, look at the dress you're wearing right now. Well, I wore this like twee-ass puffy sleeve pink-ass dress on purpose for the theme. But that just goes to show how conformity can happen so quickly. I'm wearing this ironically, but it's like, is it ironic?

I don't know. I already owned this. You also do famously wear red lipstick all the time, which is a very Taylor Swift thing. And I am interested in clever marketing. And she is very interested in clever marketing, whether or not she's willing to admit it. Yeah. And I guess just like a mid-episode disclaimer, we are tearing this apart and looking into all the aspects of Taylor Swift.

But when we analyze someone, that doesn't inherently make them a bad person. You know, she's just a pop star with so much influence that to not look into it would be a disservice. It would be irresponsible of us. As the host, it sounds like a cult. Because there's no content on her on the internet whatsoever. How would you ever learn about her? Actually, speaking of all of the conspiratorialism surrounding Taylor Swift, there was once a tip that she might have been starting a book club.

Think of something more innocent than a book club. And her Swifties were like ripping the internet to shreds trying to look for clues about like which books Taylor Swift was choosing. And it was so aggressive, but the content itself was so innocent. And that's the juxtaposition that makes the Taylor Swift fandom so spooky to me is that everyone's in pink lipstick and loving cats, but they will

Go for the jugular if you come for their queen. Oh, definitely. And we'll talk about that when we talk to our guest today who has experienced that on a personal level. But as culty as Taylor Swift is herself, the cultiest part of Taylor Swift is her following. The Swifties themselves. They just have such an extreme us versus them mentality. Swifties have been known to go on the attack.

attack whenever they perceive that their idol is not being treated properly. Here are some examples. One that stood out to me in particular was in 2021 when she called out the Ginny and Georgia writers for making a joke about her and the Swifties immediately doxed the show's reviews and it tanked it on Netflix. She tweeted, hey, Ginny and Georgia, 2010 called and it wants its lazy, deeply sexist

joke back. How about we stop degrading hardworking women by defending this horse shit as funny? Also, at Netflix, after Miss Americana, this outfit doesn't look too cute on you. Ay, ay, ay. Happy Women's History Month, I guess. And just so you guys know, the joke in the show was, what do you care? You go through men faster than Taylor Swift. It

It's so light. Just the way that she tweeted that was just so passive aggressive. It was actively aggressive. She was trying to be like LOL joke joke, but she was clearly mad about it. So unwilling to take a joke. Like have a little humor about yourself. You have literally everything in the world. She's like, I'm just an innocent small town girl from Pennsylvania and I'm just trying to empower women. It's like...

Take a joke, girlfriend. Like, we all can. I know. I feel bad. Every time we go hard on her, I'm like, but girly, invite me to your parties. I'm just going to say it. It is true. Unfortunately, Taylor Swift cannot take a joke. And she even talks about not being able to take the joke. I think she thinks she can take a joke.

I famously have not been able to take a joke as a kid. And then I was like, oh, I'll just become a comedian. I can get in front of it and I can take a joke and like roast people back. The thing with taking jokes is that when people roast you, you don't say, hey, I didn't do that. You roast them back.

Yeah. But since she's not roasting, she's defending the roast. And it is very unfunny to be this aggro in the face of a little tiny joke that was made about you. Yeah, when she tweets about something and all her fans go after that something to defend her.

it is dogmatic idol worship. It's this responsibility that her followers or her Swifties feel to go extreme lengths for the sake of defending their idol. Yes, they are so overprotective. There are so many examples of this. There was a Pitchfork writer who gave her album Folklore an 8 out of 10 instead of a 10 out of 10, and her followers literally doxed that person, revealed their name and their personal details. It was scary. They're just a

little internet writer. One fan told Elle.com that Taylor Swift feels like a childhood friend to her. She said, I just feel this motherly instinct to stand up for her because she can't possibly defend herself in every situation. When you are at that level of fame and fame

money, you don't need to defend yourself because you are making money off of all of those comments. You are making money off of that hate as well. And that's why if you want to have this job, you need to be able to compartmentalize and disassociate. She doesn't need people defending her and she also doesn't need to be defending herself

at all hours of the day. No, and I'll say this too. The impulse to want to defend yourself against senseless internet hate, no one is above that. I have friends who've been through being diagnosed with chronic illnesses, like having family members die, and even they are not immune to strangers on the internet being mean to them. Like, that sucks, even if you're Taylor Swift. But her Swifties will even defend her against complacency.

completely valid, intelligently stated criticism. Like remember when the whole private jet thing happened? If you didn't know, there is this website that tracks most celebrities like private jet usage and how much CO2 they're putting out into the world. And it's pretty much just highlighting how like the richest people in the world are

are at fault for global warming and like us as individuals using a shitty fucking paper straw. Yeah. And drinking paper is not going to help the world, but these billionaires taking massive steps is. Taylor Swift got called out for taking like five,

four, five minute jet ride. So like starting a plane and taking a five minute private jet ride from like one town to another is horrible for the environment. And her Swifties still defended her. And I remember her team came out and defended that she was like lending her jet out to other people. So she wasn't taking all of those rides. I'm like, it's

still urgent. LOL at rich people letting each other borrow each other's planes. Regular people, we borrow each other's clothes, but can you imagine being so powerful and rich that every time you lent a belonging to a friend, carbon dioxide rained from the sky and you just didn't notice or didn't care? I did think

it was interesting how the private jet hullabaloo did seem to afford certain Swifties this permission structure to come out and admit that she's kind of a problematic fave. Some people sent me a few TikToks of Swifties like kind of roasting her a little bit. It's like finally we are allowed to critique her a teeny tiny little bit.

bit. I'm researching irrationality a bunch for the book that I'm currently writing. And I learned that when a celebrity commits any kind of infraction, their fiercest loyalists will be flooded with cognitive dissonance that feels so uncomfortable that they immediately get defensive. And the worse the infraction is, the worse their cognitive dissonance will be and the more defensive and zealous their stance will get in order to psychologically overcome that.

That makes sense to me. The only example I can think on a personal level is, you know, the classic scene where like new family moves to a new town and then one of the siblings gets bullied at school. And then the sibling is like, oh, hell no. I can bully my little brother, but you can't. It's like I'm allowed to critique this person because I'm a part of their family. But

You get your hands off my sibling. Totally. And it's like we said before, this Stan in the Elle.com article said she has a motherly instinct toward Taylor Swift. But it's like you are not a part of that girl's family and you are not her mother. The meaning that it holds to Taylor Swift versus the meaning that it holds to the person defending her to the death.

are way different. Totally different. Like, Taylor Swift would be like, oh, that's nice. Someone defended me. And this girl will have spent weeks, days commenting, chatting with a person that has nothing to do with them on a personal level. That is such a good point. It's a culty red flag to become separated and isolated from your loved ones and your family because you're dedicating so much time to this group. And some of the cultiest things that Swifties do is that they'll track her every movement, including physical movements,

In addition to business and music moves, a woman running one of the biggest fan pages told The Guardian that she knew where Taylor Swift was 80% of the time. That's not healthy for the person running the fan page and for Taylor Swift. She stated many times that she no longer says what city she's living in because it's really dangerous for her, for fans to know that. People have like broken into her homes. And that's the scary part is that the fandom is now growing.

you know, snowballed into its own monster. Absolutely almost uncontrollable. Taylor interacts with her fans through like secret codes and specialized language, but they sometimes take it way too far. Some parts of the Swifty fandom are so disconnected from reality that they'll project made-up

up ideas onto her words and actions much in the same way, though not with the same consequences, that QAnoners project shit onto Trump. Like they'll overanalyze the color of a sweater that she wore in one Instagram post and interpret that to mean that she's secretly gay. It just goes to show that

The fandom really has spiraled way far away from her. People have created entire careers out of their obsession. There's this woman named Lauren Lipman. She made a YouTube video decoding the hidden messages in the Look What You Made Me Do music video, and subsequently she turned that into a whole career. Whole career.

And there are secret codes that the stand-um has invented themselves in order to feel both bonded together and superior to everyone who doesn't understand the lingo. The snake emoji is an important symbol for the fan base. They use it both to show support for Taylor and to troll outsiders. Like, snake emoji, snake emoji, snake emoji.

Yeah, there was a time when Kanye tweeted a picture of a snake and everyone was like, oh, he's calling Taylor Swift out. And she does release Easter eggs, hidden clues in her post. So it's kind of this catch-22 of you have all the power you have because of these inconveniences that you live through. Even within the Swifties, there's this in-group and out-group. There are some fans that are invited to secret listening sessions and those that are not involved get swiped.

super mad. And I mean, I don't even know how that happens. It's almost like a secret society. How do you get invited to those listening sessions? It's funny that you ask that because we looked into it and there are these unspoken rules for ascending to the highest level of Swifty. In order to be recognized by her team, you have to tag at TaylorNation13 and at TreePain, that's her publicist, on all of your social media posts.

And then and only then will you have the chance to earn special Swifty privileges like DMs from her team and Christmas presents and invites to these private listening sessions called her secret sessions. So there are these sort of unspoken codes. It reminds me of when influencers are like, comment on this post and tag three friends and I'll give you a free Tesla. I've done that. I've sent it to you. I'm like, give me that Tesla. We love exclusives.

especially as Americans. Yeah, and I also think we love free things as well. So like if her team is offering to send you Christmas presents, it's like, why not? Also, what's the cost of following an account and commenting on things when you remember to? Well, that's how it starts. And then slowly you get inducted more and more and more into the forums and the groups and the culture. And lo and behold, now two years later, you've tripped and fallen down a rabbit hole into absolute fanatical conspiracy theory, Swifty culture. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, speaking of conspiracy theories, we mentioned this a little bit about the Gaylors and the Kaylors. But I do think that the fact that there are some of her fans that go as far as genuinely thinking that Taylor Swift has been bisexual this whole time and has been gay and has been hiding it just goes to show how, like,

almost, and I'm sorry to use this word, but like delusional people can get that they remove themselves from reality. Like this woman is in a serious relationship with an actor male. Well, that's also like none of their business. What I really want to know is what is motivating these followers to want her so badly to be gay? That's a really good question. I don't know. Is it because

We need more super, super mainstream queer icons. I mean, it would be a win for the queer community if someone is famous and mainstream as Taylor Swift were gay. We're in this weird transition with queerness where it has become mainstream. So it's important for mainstream popular figures to come out because it's still a win for the queer community. But

sexuality and your sex life should still be private. I know. So I also don't think people are required to come out. So there are a lot of artists nowadays that are like no comment. Like I'm not going to come out because I'm

It's my personal life. Whether you're talking about a group as destructive and violent as QAnon or as innocent as Taylor Swift, when you're making up, to use your word, delusional conspiracy theories, it all goes back to our intense desire during times of sociopolitical turbulence to want someone to represent us and lead us into a better future. I do believe that many, many Swifties have a sense of humor about it all. I think her sense of humor has grown a bit. Yeah. But...

that doesn't reflect all of her fans. You know, I think a lot of her fans have a great sense of humor. I made a little Taylor Swift meme and posted it on my Instagram a while ago where it said cults in the movies, cults in real life. And in the cults in the movies section, I posted a screen grab from Midsommar and the cults in real life section, I posted a photo of one of her secret sessions. And then in the caption, I was like, where are my Swifties? What's the cultiest thing you've ever done in service of your queen? And so many people were like delighted to roast themselves as cult followers. People are a

Proud of the wars that they've gone through. It's like a vet coming back from war and being like, I have a purple heart. Thank you. This is hyperbole. This is hyperbole. So up next, we're going to talk to author, director, and writer Jill Gudowitz. She is a huge fan of Taylor Swift herself, but has written many articles on her and inevitably, you know, gotten into some trouble for it. Some Swifty tiffs.

so to speak. She is the author of the book Girls Can Kiss Now. She writes about Taylor Swift in that book and is the director of the short film The Ladies. Here's Jill. ♪

Hi, my name is Anna Murphy. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia and a certified Swifty. I've actually seen Taylor in concert nine times. And despite being a part of the cult, I think the cultiest thing about Taylor Swift and Swifties, particularly recently, has been the way that finding Easter eggs is invasive into not only Taylor's life, but the lives of all other celebrities that she's friends with.

Hi, I'm Rosalind from England. Universities increasingly have Taylor Swift societies. Through this, I have made most of my friends, so everyone around me is Swifties. I'm very happy to be part of that and I've become a committee member to

encourage a whole other group of people to make friends exclusively with Taylor Swift fans. This is Kendall calling from Chicago, Illinois. The way that they think that she is above critique for whatever reason, how anyone who calls her out is immediately dismissed and called a misogynist. Like you can not like Taylor Swift. It's okay.

Jill, to start, could you introduce yourself to our listeners? I'm Jill Gunwitz. I'm an author, allegedly. I wrote a book called Girls Can Kiss Now. It's a book of personal essays that are about my own life as it relates to pop culture.

Including Taylor Swift. Including, but not limited to. But if I had it my way, probably would have been a book about Taylor Swift, yes. That's amazing. Do you consider yourself in the cult of Taylor Swift? I honestly feel like it was kind of a slow burn, which I think is maybe how cults work. 1989 is really the album where I, even though I liked all the other ones, where I started to get kind of obsessed. And it was because I was going through breakup emotional times. Of course, that's when it happens.

feeling very vulnerable. After that, I was completely all in and needed to participate in getting the merch and talking about it every second on the live way. That's so true. Like once you get merch, you're like in. Once you get the merch by purchasing it online,

line, that's when you're really in. Because if you buy a shirt at a concert you go to, that's just part of the energy of the event. But once you go to www.cultoftaylorswift.com, I want a phone case. I was so swept up.

by the 1989 of it all that I like went to Target and bought this like hard CD. It was like, I was so involved that I needed to like do it in person. It was like too impersonal to just get a package delivered. All my 1989 memories are listening to CD in my car. It was already kind of a different time in like the way I was listening and consuming and buying the merch.

Yeah, that is much more intimate. A CD in a car. How old are you, Jill? Just for context, what years are we trafficking in? What ages are we trafficking in? I mean,

I'm actually 13. You're like Taylor. You froze at the time when she became famous. No, I'm 30. Taylor Swift's birthday is the day before mine, but she is two years older than me. That's the perfect age of a celebrity to worship because she's just like just ahead. Yeah, it's always been like a little aspirational.

Obviously, Taylor Swift has one of the most passionate fandoms out there. How would you describe the typical Taylor Swift cult member? Like, what are they like? Why do you think they worship Taylor? Scary. I would describe them as scary. Now there's like different generations of them even. But when I think of a Taylor Swift fan, like my mind goes to my age, like a millennial who like went to the Speak Now concert and is entering their cringe era. There's so many factions of Swifties out there.

And so many of them are now youths that are online and just have like a Taylor Swift avatar and are like basically identity lists online. Personality wise, I think like Swifties skew obsessive in general.

What do you think is like the cultiest aspect of Taylor Swift, like for better or for worse? Speaking to my own experience, I get offended and like genuinely defensive when people criticize her because she has meant a lot to me at so many different times in my life. I do have a deeply parasocial relationship with Taylor Swift. And I do feel like she's so nice to me. I love she's been so kind to me. Like we have not met. Actually, I did meet her one time.

Oh, I want to hear that. But it's so funny that you say that because I have gone down rabbit holes on YouTube, marathoning videos of Swifties reacting to her album drops. It's truly like watching a Pentecostal speak in tongues. I cannot look away. It is madness. And they say things like she didn't have to do this for us, but she did.

Like she is so kind. She is like our mother. She is our goddess. She could just be at home relaxing and she gave this to us. She doesn't know you. Yeah.

Tell us about the time you met her.

I don't know, five minutes of a conversation. And I felt like even though I had no place being there, I was clearly just a fan. And she was talking to my friend about work things and the reason why he was there and whatever. She made such a point to gesticulate at me and look at me while she was talking as much as when she was talking to him so that I felt involved in the like,

small three-person conversation, which I think is just like such a small but human thing. And it was just such like a kind thing to do for a person who like clearly has no place being there and obviously feels weird to just like make them feel included, even though you don't have to.

That's like charisma that like, what is she getting out of that? Like one particular moment, like with one fan right before she goes on stage. I do think that this like really kind, warm, I'm going to stare directly into your eyes and make you feel like this is the best day of your life. I do feel like that is part of her curated persona though. Like I think, you know, the way that you get a reputation and maintain a reputation is if you're consistent. Here, I'm going to be defensive again. My feeling is like, I'm not saying it's,

not curated in fact i'm sure that it is and if it is a form of manipulation the thing is that i don't care because doing it made me feel so much more comfortable being there so it's like even if it is not done with like pure intentions i'm still like thank you for doing that

Jill, have you ever had any scary or culty altercations with other Swifties or have observed them? I say this in my book that I had an experience where the FBI knocked on my door one time because of something I tweeted and...

Still, after that, I felt more scared when the Swifties came for me because the FBI thing got cleared, as they say. And I never heard about it again. The Swifty thing still follows me around. What did you do? During her last few album releases...

I was like covering them doing the like uncovering Easter eggs and clues moment for Vulture. And obviously being gay myself, like what I wanted to investigate was the gay stuff, whether it was true or not. You started a revolution with that. Yeah.

Okay, no, your pieces for Vulture covering those albums were so funny. I'm not even a Swifty and I voraciously consumed them because they were fucking hilarious. Thank you. A lot of people got really mad that I called her boyfriend names that were, I think, funny. He is like...

Oat milk boy. It's just like so not mean. There are such worse things you can call a person than just saying they're bland. It was just like one of those like pile on stand moments where people went really crazy and it still follows me around. Do you think that like Taylor Swift endorses those kinds of like actions from her Swifties or like she knows she has like an army of

at her disposal that she can like, it's not that she like ever would endorse it. And I think if something really sinister happened, she would of course speak out and be like, you guys, this is crazy. Um, but I think that like, she definitely knows that she has this army.

Obviously, she knows she has this cultish leader status. How do you think she exploits that status? I am not sure because I do think that she could push me pretty far morally. I don't think that she wields it for evil or would. I think that she is good. And I also am like, she's at a level now that she is so big that when you ask what can she do with this, I'm kind of like, I don't know.

know where she goes from here. You know, it's like she already has us. She has us so fucking hard to the point where she's re-releasing music of the same songs and we're like, thank you, goddess. What are some culty aspects of Swifties that someone on the outside of the cult might not even know about? Some like really fringy random shit. So many Swifties have...

all of these unreleased Taylor Swift tracks that are deep buried on YouTube or truly files that they've saved to their computers that I feel like those kinds of inner fan secrets or stuff like that. Taylor Swift has become a polarizing figure over the last decade and a lot of people consider it uncool to like her because she is so mainstream and like

I don't know. Are we calling her Chugi now? I don't know. I think that she resonates with so many people and a lot of people really like her but would not consider themselves a Swifty. Just because of the reputation. No pun intended. Yeah.

Even in her own music, she plays into like her narrative and like her role as a leader. Like she's all in on that shit. Do you think there are like Taylor Swift support groups that meet in person or people who are such deep Taylor Swift fans that they make friends with other Taylor Swift fans and maybe they've started a commune? I think if there was a commune, we would know because they would talk about it online for sure.

Like that I'm sure of is like Swifties, the really intense Swifties. Like I think we do like attention. So I think if there was a commune in the woods, we would know and I would have been on a smaller level. I feel like Swifties are constantly online talking about how like I met some of my closest friends online through the Swifty fandom, even though we've never met in real life, which like.

I have mixed feelings about go outside. But also like, I believe you because I have met friends online on like a more like truly interpersonal level. Some of my closest friends, I feel like we have bonded because of our mutual love for her forming the spark of a connection and then finding out this person also loves Taylor Swift. And then you like unpack all of that together and you talk about your

favorite album and what tours have you been to blah blah and like my friend Jared like we have like truly bonded over our mutual appreciation of Taylor Swift and it has like brought us closer that's like the fun sweet positive part of being in a cult it's like here is some doctrine for us to bond over it's like for some people it's the Bible and for some people it's like some freaky text that a man in a beard wrote and for some people it's Taylor Swift's discography and you know that's yeah

And beautiful lyrics. What do you think it says about our culture in general right now that worshiping Taylor Swift has come to mean so much more to people than just being a fan of a pop star? Being a fan of Taylor Swift has become its own identity. There is an identity and community in saying, I'm a Swiftie.

For me, I think it is net positive that so many people in our culture have raised her up to be like one of our greatest voices of this generation. No matter what you think about her, whether she is manipulative or, you know, sinister or just like a person writing about her feelings, I think she is like net positive and has had like a net positive effect on our culture. So now we're going to play a little game. We always play a game with our guest on Sounds Like a Cult. This game is called

is a Sounds Like a Cult Standby. It's culty quotes. So we're going to read you a list of quotes and you're going to have to guess whether the quote was said by Taylor Swift or a notorious cult leader from history. Quote number one, it's all the media's fault. Don't believe them. I would say a cult leader. Yes, that's Jim Jones. I would say Taylor Swift would never speak that way. I am an overachiever and I want to be known for the good things in my life. Yeah, I think that was Taylor Swift's

You're correct. You're like, that was Taylor Swift on November 1st, like at 3 p.m. No, but like, was that from the Miss Americana documentary? Because I think it was. The next quote.

Love without trust is a river without water. I'm taking this game too seriously. Now that I'm on a streak, I'm like, if I break this, I'll die. I don't think that was her, though. Like a true Swifty. You're right. The leader of the happy, healthy, holy organization, Yogi Bhajan. Wow, I'm really proud of myself right now. You're on a streak. Really hope we get you with these last couple ones. The only thing I can't control is the spin of the press. And so if I know I can't control that, I have to let it go. Taylor Swift.

Yes. Last quote. It's always good to be underestimated. Whoa. I want to say Taylor Swift, though. Whoa! I got it! Yeah. And you're going to die. It's Donald Trump. Yeah. How could you do me like that, Amanda? I could see that, like, completely opening, like, her reputation tour. Her being like,

It's always good to be underestimated. This move says Mike to the sky. Jill, thank you so much for being on the pod and for putting yourself in this vulnerable position. Thank you so much. This has been so fun. And yeah, I hope I don't get trolled further.

If anyone gets trolled from this, it'll probably be us. And we hope you don't. But if you have to troll someone, don't troll Jill. She's been through so much. If listeners want to keep up with you and your Taylor Swift coverage and other things, where can they find you? I am on Instagram as my name, Jill Gutowitz, and Twitter, Jillboard, spelled like billboard, which was a choice I made in college. Now I'm verified and I can't change it. Or you can buy my book.

and read about some real deep tailors with thoughts. So Issa, out of the three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out.

What do you think about the cult of Taylor Swift? You're not going to like it. I think the cult of Taylor Swift is a live your life. I think so too. Really? Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's a live your life in the way that we, shock of the century, thought Disney adults were a live your life. Yes, exactly. Because even in the worst case scenarios of her loyal followers, they're not like actually sending nukes on her behalf.

her behalf. You know what I mean? Nobody's gotten like truly hurt. And the person who could get the most hurt is Taylor Swift herself. At that point, she's the one kind of pushing away. When we're evaluating the verdict, it is important to look at the worst case scenario. And even though there's been a little bit of psychological turmoil as a result of the Swifty fandom, and it can really take over your life, and they do sort of have zero questioning of her, and there is this us versus them mentality.

at the end of the day, the stakes are pretty low. Yeah. And it's something that people are enjoying in a way that isn't destroying their lives. I mean, think of all the cults that people can join in 2022. Yes. There's so many. And that's why I think it's important to zoom out and look at it on a comparative structure. Like you always say, we grade on a curve. So I think on our curve, Taylor Swift really is a live your life. If you

want more evidence about what it means to be a live your life versus watch your back versus get the fuck out, go back and marathon our entire Sounds Like a Cult back catalog. We do this on every episode. For any Swifties listening, I hope this puts your mind to rest. And I hope that we provided some really entertaining conversations as we lead up to her next album.

Alba. Did you like the timing of this episode? I know it is this week. Well, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Music

Sounds Like a Cult is created, hosted, and produced by Amanda Montel and Issa Medina. Michael Dorfman is our editor. Our podcast studio is All Things Comedy, and our theme music is by Casey Kolb. Thank you to our intern slash production assistant, Noemi Griffin. Subscribe to Sounds Like a Cult wherever you get your podcasts.

So you never miss an episode. And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating and review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And check us out on Patreon at patreon.com slash soundslikeacult.

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