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I am so excited to tell you about this iPhone game that I am newly absolutely obsessed with. It's called June's Journey. If you're a true crime fan, but you don't like anything too violent, I feel like this game is totally going to be up your alley. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game that takes place in the 1920s, so the aesthetic is very colorful.
and vintagey. It centers on this protagonist named June who has to travel back to her family's luxurious island estate to solve the mystery of who murdered her sister. And you participate by finding hidden clues to help uncover the murder mystery. And I love that you also get to decorate the island estate as you go, which makes the game so fun and aesthetic and relaxing. I feel like I'm generally pretty bad at iPhone games.
games, but you truly cannot be bad at this one. I like to play it when I want to be on my phone, but I don't want to be on social media. I just want to relax and find something fun and distracting. It's great for that. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android. Hey, it's host Amanda here. I want to tell you about my new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. For all my overthinking
overthinkers listening. I've been working super hard on it over the past three years. I cannot wait for you to read it. It comes out April 9th, 2024 and is available for pre-order now at the link in our show notes or at simonandschuster.com. Again, it's called The Age of Magical Overthinking and I really hope you pre-order.
Thank you to our sponsor, Dipsy. For listeners of the show, Dipsy is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to dipsystories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D-I-P-S-E-A stories.com slash cult. Dipsystories.com slash cult.
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The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Hey culties, Amanda here. It's just me hosting this week, so the opinions and work represented on this episode are solely my own and that of my special guest.
And then we tried to resolve the conflict with my parents before we even got to the point where we needed to leave the show. So that was our first step of like, okay, this is not okay. We need to stand our ground. And then later, we're sorting through things and facing a lot of backlash. Little things even that other people would say are little, but huge in my circle. Like wearing pants and nose ring and leaving the show. We end up in this meeting with my parents that does not go very well. And realize like you can't change other people.
This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern-day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montell, author of the books Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming The Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show, you're going to hear about a different culty group from the cultural zeitgeist, from Swifties to the Supreme Court, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?
And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out? After all, the word cult is up to interpretation. It's my personal belief that we're living in the cultiest era of all time. For better and for worse, there is now a cult for everyone. And this week, I am amped because we're going to be talking about the cult of reality TV families with two
two very special guests, none other than Jill and Derek Dillard. They are a married couple that you might recognize from the smash hit controversial reality show on TLC, 19 Kids and Counting Jill's
former last name was Duggar because she was one of the Duggar sisters. Jill and Derek just co-authored a new memoir called Counting the Cost that gave a little peek behind the veil of what it felt like to grow up in a super, super religious family on reality television. What a mindfuck.
They're so transparent and generous and also they seem to be doing pretty well despite having defected from, I would already say, one of the most fucked up types of cults that we've ever covered on this show. Not only being in a super dogmatic, oppressive family situation that made getting the fuck out almost impossible, but having to do so in public on reality TV without getting paid...
They are in therapy. They're going to talk about that later in the interview. But I would be in more therapy than exists on this earth. They're doing well, though. Spoiler alert. This is not a depressing episode of Sounds Like a Cult. But let me set the scene for a second because we've covered other sort of like culty corners of the reality TV sphere on the show before, like The Real Housewives and The Bachelor and Netflix.
None of those shows even hold a candle to the type of show that we're talking about today. I'm specifically referring to these types of shows about extraordinary families or like really weird
families, families that like are abnormal for one reason or another, but still relatable and wholesome that would air mostly on TLC. So we're talking, of course, John and Kate plus eight. Here comes Honey Boo Boo, Sister Wives, Little People, Big World, OutDaughtered, Welcome to
Plathville. And each of these families was unique for one reason or another, whether it was because they were super religious and had a million kids like with the Duggars and the Plaths. Objectively, this is such an unbelievably creepy genre of television. You could argue that it's there to teach viewers about different kinds of families. After all, TLC stands for The Learning Channel.
But TLC these days could more accurately stand for the Learing Channel. Because Lord knows, growing up, I was a
obsessed with this genre of television. I could not look away from Sister Wives, not because I was necessarily trying to learn a little bit, but mostly I was just rubbernecking the way that I would rubberneck at the NXIVM docuseries. I mean, with the Duggars in particular. On screen, you see this super, super religious family that dresses all their kids the same. You see an image of
all these children lined up wearing like identical Christmas dresses. Their names all start with the letter J. The tenants that they live by are so unquestioned and governed by principles that the average American family is probably not on board with at all. Objectively, like it looks like a cult. It sounds like a cult. It
smells like a cult, but everybody was fine with it. No, not only were they fine with it, viewers like myself, we loved it. We became totally attached to it. We wanted it to continue. To me, this was like taking a kind of sinister cult story and dressing it up as this like hunky dory, all American family tale. And I'm complicit. I ate that shit
up. Anyone who's been listening to this pod for a while knows that my favorite documentary growing up was Jesus Camp about the like fundamentalist evangelical summer camp in what was it, Missouri, where kids learn to speak in tongues and protest against abortion. It was just like beyond fucked up and I was obsessed with learning about it.
These shows like Sister Wives and The Duggars that went on for seasons and seasons and seasons and seasons, it was like a bottomless well of Jesus Camp type content. Like, how could I look away from that? So I can't wait to get into the interview a little later because it's so interesting to hear from literal survivors of this literal cult what their experience was like and to learn from them how bad is this cult really. But I do kind of want to provide some context. ♪
There are reality TV families on other networks like A&E, but I am going to kind of be focusing on TLC for this moment because that's the network that really sort of pioneered this freaky ass genre. So as I mentioned, TLC was once upon a time known as the Learning Channel, and it used to be a fitting name because it was a network that aired documentaries and like educational content.
But that kind of changed in the late 90s when the network figured out that reality TV was about to have a moment. And so they were like, okay, let's kind of pivot from these like semi-boring documentaries to something more voyeuristic. And once they made that rebrand, that's when TLC became the TV titan, aka cult, that it is today. So they started airing like really controversial series that were kind of shocking as a stunt.
such as Toddlers and Tiaras. Again, I was so fucking obsessed. What is wrong with me? I love Toddlers and Tiaras. They also had My Strange Addiction, Extreme Cheapskates, and Extreme Couponing. The network was just kind of like shameless and really savvy about capturing these people
bizarre subcultures, but also making them feel kind of innocent so that the viewer didn't have to feel guilty watching them. Now, critics have certainly criticized TLC for creating this...
Again, super voyeuristic style of TV that totally lacks nuance and for trivializing slash making a spectacle out of, you know, pretty serious societal issues like poverty, disability, body image, mental health. So arguably,
It was the show John and Kate Plus 8 that really lit up America's obsession with reality shows about freakishly large families. That show premiered in 2007, and it paved the way for similar series. Obviously, if something is going amazing, you're going to want to reinvent it in hopes that lightning will strike twice. And for TLC, lightning has been striking.
But of course, whenever there's a shockingly fast skyrocket to success, what goes up must come down and controversy is sure to follow. So John and Kate, I'm sure most people know, but they were these parents of IVF sextuplets. They also had a pair of older twins. Their show was unbelievably popular. They were like the fucking Brangelina of TLC. Of course, they got divorced, just like Brangelina did.
And John tried removing his children from the cult of reality TV altogether, citing understandably that it was unhealthy for them. But did Kate pull her kids from the cult of reality TV families? Of course not. Because it's like a golden handcuff situation. She was probably raking in cash. She didn't.
totally devoted her life to being this famous reality TV mom. Lifestyle inflation happened. She's like dependent psychologically and financially on this cult. But then over the years, more and more victims of the cult of reality TV families started coming out and telling their truth. In 2020, the youngest son from the show Little People Big World, which was like
a reality TV show about a family whose parents and one of their kids had different forms of dwarfism. The youngest son, Jacob Roloff, came out and alleged that he was sexually abused by a member of the show's production team. And he wrote the statement on Instagram that I find excruciating
Extremely culty. He said, I continue my own contemplation on the voyeurism involved in the entire enterprise of reality television. A massive spectacle of drama and pain and argument and invasion with a little joy sprinkled over that viewers watch completely dissociated from the complex humans inside the simplistic characters they see on TV. And this sort of facade, this like false promise of this voyeurism
perfect image of a family with just enough imperfection to make it interesting. There is something so culty about taking these families, blunting them into characters. And I'm talking about the networks, not crimes, but the networks of sins here.
forcing them to be beholden to those characters and sort of like coercing them into thinking that they can't get out, that they'll be nothing if they don't participate in this reality TV show, even if they're in pain.
because of anything from the grueling hours to the pressure and criticism and bullying as a result of us voyeuristic viewers. But the toll that reality television takes on families, like your family is like the most intimate personal thing to you. It's like private. You know, I don't even post about my family. Well, I did just have my dad on an episode of Sounds Like a Cult. But if you're
in a reality TV show about your family, it's not like going on the real world where you don't know who to trust in the house, but you like just met these strangers two months ago or two weeks ago. If the reality show that you're on is about your family and you're a kid who didn't even consent to
being on the show, now all of a sudden you like can't trust the motives of your own parents. How traumatic is that? And speaking of the consent stuff, we've talked about the Coogan laws before on the show and we talked about the cult of child stars when we talked about the cult of
mom fluencers. But I didn't realize that while child stars on narrative scripted shows are protected in terms of how much they get paid and how many hours they're allowed to work, that's not true for kids on reality TV. They are not protected by the same child labor and performance laws. I mean, with kids that are on reality TV and kids that are on YouTube and become really famous and their parents become really wealthy and stuff, it's just the Wild West. And most child reality stars, who's
sometimes are like way more famous than kids on scripted TV. They oftentimes don't have separate contracts from their parents. So that renders them totally helpless in terms of like what money that they're owed. And if their parents happen to have like strong moral compasses and are like, okay, we're going to set up a trust for you for college or whatever, great. But
A lot of families, especially if you're a super religious patriarchal family like the Duggars, they're not going to do that. You're completely at the will of your parents who have been corrupted by the network to like do whatever it takes to maintain this reality TV fame.
In the case of the Duggars specifically, this lack of protection financially was exacerbated and made even more harmful when combined with the family's fundamentalist ideals, which force children into subservience, whether
they're on reality TV or there's a bunch of money involved or not. So the Duggars have been on television for so long and have been the subject of like immense glory and immense shame. And there was just a documentary that came out about them called Shiny Happy People. Basically, 19 Kids and Counting followed the
the daily quotidian lives of the parents Jim Bob and Michelle and their eventual 19 kids. It went on for 10 seasons between 2008 and 2015. And on the outside, the series presented this very like cohesive family unit.
They have this like amazingly organized pantry to feed all the kids. Like they know exactly what their chores should be. The documentary reveals that despite the perfect facade and when a facade is that perfect, like, you know, some fucked up shit has to be going on underneath the surface.
And indeed it was because the reason why 19 kids and counting ended or really pivoted was because the family and the larger religious fundamentalist group that they were a part of was hit with major allegations of sex abuse, child abuse, financial exploitation.
Where to begin enumerating the culty aspects of the situation? First of all, before 19 Kids and Counting, Jim Bob, and I cannot say that name with a straight face. It's just such a funny name for a villain type character like Maleficent, Cruella de Vil, Jafar, Jim Bob. Mwahaha!
Okay, Jim Bob was a politician. He served for years as a Republican Arkansas state representative. He ran for a seat in the US Senate. And he was also, and still is, a member of this fundamentalist Christian group called the IBLP. You'll hear more about it from Jill and Derek. But basically, it's an extremely controlling sect.
That basically said that children must remain subservient to their parents forever. They are obligated to reproduce as many children as possible. You're on like the tightest leash in terms of your behavior, your personality. You can't even like fucking wear pants if you're a woman. All kids have to be homeschooled. You're not even allowed to watch TV. LOL.
So basically in 2015, it came out that there had been a decade-old police report stating the Duggar's eldest son, Josh, had sexually abused at least five girls, including two of his sisters, and Jill was one of those alleged victims. So following that scandal, 19 Kins and Counting was canceled. But instead of TLC just retreating, licking their wounds, whatever, they launched a bunch of spin
focusing on Jill and Jessa. Like, oh, okay, I'm so sorry. Here, we'll make up for it by giving you a reality show. The spinoff about Jill's wedding in particular was at the time the highest rated show in TLC history. But Jill later revealed that neither she nor any of her siblings ever received any financial compensation for appearing on these shows.
Jim Bob reportedly got paid millions, according to this documentary, Shiny Happy People. In the end, Jill had to like beg to receive any of it. And what she got was in low six figures. It was like barely anything that she was owed. The conclusion of the story with the eldest brother, Josh, was that in 2021, he was convicted on child pornography charges and he's currently serving 12 years in federal prison in Texas. So...
I guess like someone in the cult is experiencing some accountability, but Jim Bob is still chilling, like sitting on his pile of gold. And this is what I keep thinking about is like...
what's so unbelievably fucked up about the cult of religious reality TV families in general is that it's already enough to be in a family where you cannot be yourself, where like someone who's supposed to be very close to you is attempting to control you. Every time you try to like push back or assert yourself the nice way, they manipulate you or basically threaten the
that if you leave, I'll take everything you own and destroy your life. Like being in the cult of a relationship like that is hard enough. Now there's the dimension of the public who are in the cult in one sense. I mean, obviously like TLC had them in the palm of their hand, but they're also perpetuating the cult because they feel like they know you. But of course, they only know the version of you that was portrayed on the air and it's
They seem like they might care about you, but how could they really? What they definitely care about is this piece of entertainment that they've fallen in love with and gotten so used to. So for Jill, there were essentially multiple pressures coming from every angle, keeping her from leaving the cult of reality TV families, not to mention the internal psychological pressure of, ironically, getting the fuck out of the cult
would require you to confront the guilt of not getting the fuck out sooner. It's such a tricky pickle. And even though Jill's experience was so unique...
I think it's actually relatable. And I mentioned earlier that she and Derek seem to be doing well, and you'll be able to hear it in our interview, but I truly think it's because they have each other. And this is why this is a relatable story, because whether you're in a manipulative cult-like job situation or romantic relationship or spiritual group or like, I don't know, fucking online forum or whatever it is, it's so important to have
have someone who cares about your well-being on the outside to help you strategize how to get the fuck out when you finally had enough like Jill did because lord knows it might be messy and yet it's worth it to get out of the cult you know what I mean but
is the cult of reality TV families always a get the fuck out? Or is it more of a watch your back? Or am I being dramatic and it's really just to live your life? That's what we're here to try and figure out today. So without further ado,
I am very excited to introduce you to our interview today. Jill and Derek Dillard have an adorable family now. They have three kids. They like are still religious, but they're doing it more their own way now. They're kind of estranged from the Duggar family, but they have each other. They have their family. They have their freedom. And they have a new book out documenting their experiences. It's called Counting the Costs.
So yeah, here is our interview. Jill and Derek, could you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your new book? Yeah, so I am Jill Dillard. I'm Derek Dillard. And we just wrote a book called Counting the Cost. It's a memoir, so it tells about my life growing up in the Duggar family as the fourth born of 19 children. Derek and I met on the show. We had our first baby as part of that, our wedding, like all of the things that we did.
All of our early relationship from the time we began what we would call dating, but called courting for the purposes of the show until after we were pregnant with our second child. Wow. So many milestones on television. You said that it was called courting for the purposes of the show. Was it called courting for the purposes of your life or was that kind of language that you were supposed to use for the purposes of the show?
That was the language that I grew up hearing because my family was part of a group called IBLP, the Institute in Basic Life Principles. And that was kind of, they didn't coin the phrase. Obviously it's like an old term. When we were approaching dating and all of that, it was this whole like purity culture movement thing that used the old term as a phrase that was very known in my circles. So growing up, that's what we called it. But at the same time, I feel like
the show really hung on to the term courting because they're like, oh, they like... Anything that's different. Anything that's different or like people would be like, oh, wow, that's weird. Like for lack of a better description. Yeah. For sure. Because it's TLC. It's like voyeuristic. For those who don't know, could you explain how the opportunity of making a reality show about your family came your way? Who made the decision to move forward with that and like why it seemed like a good idea? Yeah. My...
My parents, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, started having kids like four years into marriage and then kind of came to the conclusion that they didn't want to prevent having children as part of like their religious views.
And so they had a bunch of kids and about one or two sometimes because there are two sets of twins every year. Anyway, my dad was involved in politics in the local state government. And through that got some attention from local media and then from national media when he ran for U.S. Senate in 2002. All the kids were all dressed the same. Yeah. So that.
picture was like printed in the New York Times, which then was picked up by Parents Magazine, which was then picked up by Discovery Health Channel, turned into TLC later. Anyways, we did a documentary, one-time documentary with Discovery Health Channel way back when there were only 14 children. After the 14 children...
thing became a big deal on their television network. Then they came back and did four more one-time documentaries. And then that was around the time that reality TV shows were really becoming a thing.
And they asked if they could start the series about our family. 17 Kids and Counting, I think, was the first series after those five documentaries. And then from there, 18 Kids and Counting, 19 Kids and Counting, and then the show was canceled. And then it came back, Jill and Jessa Counting On, and then dropped Jill and Jessa, and then it was Counting On until it was canceled a couple years ago. When her oldest brother went to prison, that kind of ended all of it. Yeah. Yeah.
Sure. Yeah, that'll put a damper on your reality TV career. So in my mind, there seems to be a sort of clash in terms of the sort of like humble God serving values of Christianity and the very like hyper individualist profit driven pursuit of reality TV and
And I'm wondering, like in the family, like how are those two ideas squared or was that not seen as a clash? Yeah, so that's a good point. But it very much was in line with the values because the values were the overall goal of a ministry. My family really talked and thought about it as a TV ministry. So we thought about it as like, look at this platform that we can reach other people for Christ and
And this is a great opportunity. So we're going to be in the world, but not of it type thing. So we're not advocating for the same things that are on television, but we can be a bright light in a dark world type thing. And that felt very like purposeful and authentic for you at the beginning. That's what it felt like at the time. That's what it was originally. I mean, after a while, it became more like a laborious thing.
thing that had exciting parts to it, of course, but it became something that was more, especially more so as Derek and I were trying to make lives for ourselves and our little family. Whenever we ran into things that clashed with the overall goal of my parents and the show, that's when we had more issue with it because we didn't really have choice. The further we went along in our journey, the more the blinders came off and we were
we realized the whole ministry thing was more just like you said, a way to reconcile two seemingly opposing objectives. And it really became more apparent that it was a means to promote, for lack of a better description, the cult itself. I wouldn't even call it a Christian show. The show itself was not a Christian show. It was more about promoting homeschooling or promoting having as many kids as you can or promoting you need to dress a certain way and think
and things like that. Like it was a good show or whatever. Like there wasn't a lot of. No, yeah. I mean, it was kid friendly. It was kid friendly. Like kind of on the same level as like Mr. Rogers neighborhood or something. Totally. Like you can turn it on and know that your kids aren't going to be. Hearing cuss words or something. Yeah, hearing cuss words. They might be brainwashed, but not. Yeah. Yeah. So,
I mean, it sounds like you came to a lot of realizations together and that you were real support for one another in terms of like kind of getting out of this situation, which can be so hard to do on your own. But what were some of the religious values that you grew up with that maybe you don't subscribe to anymore? And how did your family come to like embrace those particular values? So there's this guy called Bill Gothard.
who started initially just a group called the Institute on Basic Life Principles. He would go around and speak to large groups of people about having control of your kids' hearts and helping prevent problems and kind of counteracting a lot of the hippie movement. He's like, no, it's good to have rules and gained a lot of popularity way back in the day. Well, then he came up with this homeschool program called ATI,
that was kind of like, hey, if you do these things, this will help you maintain a level of authority in your children's lives. It was very appealing. It was like, it wasn't just like you come live at this place and nobody eats bread or something. Like it was like, it was very... That just sounds like LA. You know, like it's
It's like it was – it promised a lot of things. It was fun and exciting and you have a community and like – Like you said earlier about how everyone has this desire for community and for belonging. And in a lot of ways, that's what this offered to people before.
who otherwise seemed very awkward and out of place. If Jill talking about as a child, the first time they saw people that looked like them and they didn't feel weird was at these different events in either ATI, the Advanced Training Institute on the homeschooling side or the Institute in Basic Life Principles, the umbrella organization. I even liken it to like if you have like an Apple product
Like you feel like you have to have like an Apple iPhone to go with it and a MacBook and like everything syncs with each other. It's like, well, if you're already... We're Mac people. We're Mac people. We're on a Mac Air right now and I have an iPhone. But it just makes your life a lot easier when they sync to each other.
And you get all the same products from the same company. And to me, it seems like with this organization, it's like, oh, if you're already in Institute and Basic Life Principles, now we have a homeschooling option that you can do too and incorporate that into your life. Yeah, it's called a closed system. And I'm so glad that you made that Apple comparison because we did an episode on the cult of Apple products just to highlight how it works the same. You know, like it really doesn't. So
Such a good analogy. It's just like, you know, the stakes and consequences and the aesthetic and like how much it's accepted is very different. Okay, so being on reality TV is like such a unique experience. And when you're a religious family that a lot of people are kind of like ogling, I'm wondering if you've had a lot of fun with reality TV.
if the very fact of being on reality TV made the values in your family more extreme in any way? Like, how was that relationship between the actual values you grew up with and the fact of being on reality TV? Yeah, so that's one interesting thing. We did not grow up with television in our home. So we had internet eventually and all of that. But
We didn't grow up like watching ourselves on TV. I mean, occasionally we grabbed the rabbit ears out of the closet or something and put it on our little TV that didn't have any signal otherwise and listen to like a presidential debate or like 9-11. I remember that. But overall, we didn't just watch ourselves on TV or anything. But I will say that
Yes, I think that these rules and things that IBLP taught were emphasized more because then you have a platform and a reputation at stake if you don't protect that.
then everything you're saying and preaching per se, like on this ministry platform of the show is going to be attacked if you don't live what you're preaching. And so the pressure already was there just because of the group pressure that we were in and, um,
the way that we were raised, but you add a TV show to that and it definitely makes that more intense, which is very unhealthy. And it almost fed that control because if something were changed on the show, you'd have to address it. The producers would want you to, if somebody, if one of the main themes is like, we all wear this type of clothing and then someone pops up not wearing that type of clothing, that's
That would put the pressure on her dad. And then it almost like feeds that idea that like reality TV is staged because in some ways certain aspects of it become more and more staged because you're maintaining that theme of this is how we act and we don't want to be asked to address it. So you end up having to live almost like a lie if like
Either that or just don't change. Either that or don't change. Oh my gosh, yeah. I never really thought about that. And I think anyone who has a public platform, whether they're religious or not, they've cultivated a brand, right? That's why they have an audience. And at a certain point, no matter what your values are, you become beholden to that or else the public will call it out and they'll call you a hypocrite. And they'll say, you're inconsistent or you're inauthentic. You couldn't change if you wanted to because there would not only be private problems,
backlash, but public backlash, even among people who actually disagree with you. It's very imprisoning. Yeah, it is. And so you have to be confident enough or live double or does not change at all. And that's really what led us kind of breaking away. We were seeing how this was harmful to people who had this romanticized idea from their viewing the show and
just having a certain idea of what they thought the brand was and they were wanting to pursue the brand instead of what was actually happening. And we felt the responsibility to come out and say, Hey, this is harmful. These aspects are harmful. And we felt like that was also our responsibility because it was easier for us to break away. Like,
It's harder if somebody is in a position where if they buck the system, then they're really kind of left hung out to dry. Like they don't have like a place to land if everything is kind of reliant upon that system. And like the more gravity it gains, the harder it is to break away from something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk more about what that point was when you really decided like, OK, we need to take a step back from this?
all of this from the TV show aspect. I think, Jill, you mentioned that your dad really didn't want you to step away. Could you talk about that, that moment? Yeah, basically, it came down to where Derek and I were trying to make decisions for our life. And we had tried to do that and still continue the whole filming and show thing for a while. But it got to the point where it was just not possible to do both. So either we were going to sit on our hands and just like,
continue being submissive or whatever and just ride it out. Not do what we wanted to do as a family. Yeah, and alter our plans or we were going to pursue what we felt like we were being called to do and that was not in alignment with the plans that other people had for us. So,
We got into a knock down drag out kind of thing with my dad where initially it was them asking us to come back for a promotional shoot. That was usually an annual thing, but we were in Central America. Then they told us like, "Hey, we need you to come back for this promotional shoot." The network and my dad.
And when we said, hey, we'll do it when we get back or you can come here to us and we'll meet you in a hotel or whatever. It was the first time that I had said no and like stood my ground on it. I later realized that in therapy because we sought out a counselor who kind of helped us work through a lot of this.
and process so much. And then we try to resolve the conflict as well with my parents before we even got to the point where we needed to leave the show. So that was our first step of like, okay, this is not okay. We need to stand our ground. That was the first time we stood our ground. And then later we're kind of sorting through things and facing a lot of backlash, little things even that other people would say are little, but huge in my circle.
Like wearing pants and nose ring and all of that and leaving the show. And anyway, we end up in this meeting with my parents that does not go very well and realize like you can't change other people.
And you have to be okay with other people not being okay with you sometimes. And with yourself not being okay sometimes as well. Because in this culture, it was very much not okay to be at odds with your parents because they're your authority spiritually and everything. So working through that. And there's so much. Yeah. Like that first confrontation when Jill first said no to her dad. Like the manipulation was so bad that like whenever it was all said and done that day,
And I'm sure this is in the book too, but like, you know, Jill's crying saying, are we going to go to jail? I'm like, no, we're not going to go to jail. Like it's... We haven't made a dime at that point. This is ridiculous. Like we've not made anything up. Oh my God. I mean...
It's wild because like I've never been through an experience like what you've been through, but I can relate to what you're describing so much. And I think anyone who's ever been in like a really, really formative relationship, whether it's with a parent or a boss or whatever it is, that feels like you can't say no and you've never said no to them. And all of a sudden now you stand up for yourself and the repercussions are so
so intense. You feel like even though there's objectively there's no chance you could go to jail or die or anything, that's one of those exit costs is just like this incredible paranoia. It's actually such a relatable story even though the circumstances are extraordinary. I mean, that was one of the reasons why we
wrote the book because like the more we share with people as we kind of gain some more momentum in sharing our story everyone thought they could relate on some level and finding your voice it's part of maturing yeah it really is again that was one of the aspects of the manipulation was part of control in any cult is is making people think that nobody else could relate to you so you have nowhere to go like if you try and tell your friends about
the show like they're not going to understand they don't have a show so all it's going to do is create jealousy no one's going to get it so you just need to not talk about any of this with anybody else outside of our circles our family and that's just not true that's it's a lie because so many things people can relate with there's nothing new under the sun everyone has relationships that have these common themes exactly talk about if you can isolate somebody then you can control them
And so whether it's intentional or not is not the issue. It's like, no, you just you've got to get counsel from other people outside the situation because that's the hard part is like finding not just yes people, but finding people.
that are where you want to be and that are going to provide you solid counsel. Yeah. I love how you mentioned going through therapy and how much that was helpful. And I really liked how you mentioned too, like being okay with displeasing someone. It's so hard. And I'm like this, I just like,
I just want people to like me. I don't want people to be upset with me. But that's not a healthy dynamic. It actually feeds into the cultishness even more. It doesn't make it better. And I am a full believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt or not assuming the worst up until a point. But also, a situation isn't always going to improve just because you really want it to. Like, that's an important lesson, too. Because that's just magical thinking. ♪
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A huge part of cultish manipulation involves financial exploitation. And that's not only found in certain religious environments, but certainly in Hollywood. And I was wondering if you could describe some of the financial exploitation that was going on for you. Oh.
kind of laid some groundwork and then joked to finish up. But so we weren't stupid. Like we knew we weren't getting paid. People were like, well, why were you doing it? If you weren't getting paid, it's like, we're like helping out her family. And there's also, there's a give and take to that. Like, because we knew that we were just trying to help out and there was no, no strings attached that we could at whatever point and move to another country or take a different job or do something that would conflict with filming. Um,
We would just like kind of bow out at that point. But until we get to that point for the first years of our marriage, like we'll help out when we can. And then once we were doing a lot. Yeah. And we were doing a lot, like 20 hours a week on average. And a lot of the storylines were based around our lives. And the freedom that comes in, like not getting paid is that we have freedom to like change direction. But that was not the case once we got to that point.
Yeah, yeah. Especially growing up on television. I mean, I had been on the show as a minor for years. And for my siblings as well, there was like no path to really have a voice. We tried to communicate with the network and they basically told us you have to have your dad's people as part of the process, which was really sad and messed up in the reality world.
TV world. And in this culture growing up, you never questioned the authority of your parents. So that was also there. I was also in my... There were lots of sets of the children in my family, but at the older group, I was very passive and very people-pleasing. My nickname was Sweet Jilly Muffin, so I was always...
that person. So trying to please my parents and gain their approval. Like we were saying earlier, like up to this point, we were just helping out like we've been married for years and like we were going to do what we could do to not rock the boat with my new wife's family. And this is something that she's kind of grown up with. And
I love how, like, typical good son-in-law behavior is like, I'll take out the trash. I'll pick up the grandkids from school. Yours is like, I will appear on national television. I mean, like, I don't want to, like, give anyone a reason to, like, not like us and be like... I was also the very first daughter to get married. So my brother had been married for several years, but I was the first daughter. So I think that also had a lot to... Yeah, and like... And you were the only son-in-law. People, I hear sometimes, like...
comments about, well, they're just, it's all about the money or whatever. Well, we weren't trying to get paid for the first years of our marriage. Like, and it was only when we realized that we were asked to give up something, like we had an opportunity and we had to give up our plans for a number of years. And once we were, once we lost a job, like once we realized that I'm like, well, if we're being required to give up this level of our life, like there should be a level of compensation for it.
But whenever we, you know, gently proposed that, it was like slapped back in our face. And basically, as we pursued that, it was apparent really quickly, Jill was not going to get paid anything near what it was worth for the decade plus she had been on TV. But it was a matter of principle at that point. So even if it ended up being about minimum wage, which is what it accounted to, it was a matter of the principle. Because even in trying to push for that amount, it was
way way I mean like way way way below what it would have been worth even that was resisted and so I
We were made out to be greedy and told you're cut out of the inheritance and stuff like that for asking. But if you're going to work every day, and at the end of the month you got paid, and your boss was like, what are you, all about the money? And I was like, no, but I'm being asked to come here every day and do this work. It shouldn't need justification. It's like if you don't get it, it can't be explained. Yeah, it's like if the tables were turned, they would never agree to something like that. So it's just...
to think that that was okay. Or even people with, recently with like our book, they're like, so where are you going to donate the proceeds from your book? I'm like, well, why would you, would it be weird if like whenever it came payday for your job, if someone said, well, where are you going to donate your paycheck? It's like, well, don't you need food to eat? Like,
Well, hopefully people are becoming wiser to this, but I think people automatically think that if you're famous, you're rich. And it's just simply not the case. If anything, and especially the first years of our marriage, I felt like we were in a worse off position because you have your day job that's bringing in 100% of your income for your family.
And this is something that's 20 hours a week that's taking away from that and making you more stressed and more exhausted. Everyone else at your office is going home and enjoying their weekend. You're being asked to do interviews until midnight. Oh, my gosh. It's truly awful. It's so much better to be rich and not famous. Anyway.
Okay, so, but speaking of the whole, like, filming aspect, your family is not the only family that's been documented on reality TV this way. You know, there is, of course, like, the John and Kate franchise, and there was Sister Wives, and Welcome to Placid.
Plathville and I definitely consumed this content and I wonder what your perspective is on why these types of shows keep getting made and do you think that their existence is damaging? You're talking about the voyeurism aspect of it. It reminds me of we recently watched The Truman Show. It's very much like that. I think what's kind of helped summarize a lot of it
The damaging aspects of it was the part where they're interviewing the producer of the Truman Show. Like, I know you like to keep a very private life, so we'll keep this brief or whatever. He is expecting his privacy to be respected, but then he's exploiting this person from the time they're born until adulthood. I think the important thing is that they don't have a choice in it. And with kids, they don't have a choice in it.
So as an adult, like if you want to make that decision for yourself, that's great. That's different. But I think you do have to recognize now it's the same way with YouTube channels or social media at all. Totally.
I don't even know where the line should be. Like, it's going to be different for different people. I think at whatever point, like, it becomes dependent upon the kids and their role. It can't function without them. Like, it can't function without them. Like, that was what was damaging about her family was, like, when we tried to leave, it's like, no, the show will not be the show if you're not on it, so you have to be on it. So, like, totally. If the show is canceled, it's because of you if you leave. Yeah, like, we were told that if you leave and the show's canceled, you want to be the one everyone looks at and, like, you're the reason why this all stopped.
And then as far as like reality TV or whatever, John and Kate...
Little People, Big World, whatever. Like all these reality TV shows that are very popular. I think it's just because people can find an element that they can relate to and that's not always bad. Like sometimes it can be helpful and there's that draw there. I can relate to this. Then there's that like extra weird factor or whatever where there's this element that's different about it. Right. That keeps you coming back. So it's not all like, oh, this is all a terrible idea. Yeah.
But I think like Derek's saying, like you do have to be careful whether it's even for yourself or for your kids. What's that tipping point where you're just sold out to it? And it can be with social media too. Like you need to constantly be reevaluating and seeing like, okay, am I in a healthy place? Do I need to take a break? And sometimes that's hard to do if you're in a contract or whatever.
literally like signed up, signed your life away for something. But at least you have that awareness and hopefully you've had some decision making in that. And I don't know if this is the case based on looking at what's out there. It seems like networks like prey on people in vulnerable situations who, whether it's like financially, it's like, oh, they don't have any reason not to say no to
So like if we go to somebody and their house is being foreclosed on and they're in dire financial straits, but there's some interesting aspect of their life and we can like capitalize on that. They have no choice but to say yes. I know now that you say it, when I think about it, like there are so many of these shows on like TLC and similar networks where
the subject on TV is like not a particularly bougie family, you know? It's like there are like so many families that, yeah, like you're saying, they are relatable, but they're also vulnerable. Like there's such a weird dichotomy between shows about like the super, super, quote unquote, elite, rich, real housewives, Kardashians, which like,
you know, that's a big family. And usually like you have less say in how you're portrayed with the lower ones, but then like the super bougie, whatever, one of the advantages to having the financial independence is you can say, if it's not going to be this way, then we're stepping away. So like networks have less control in those situations because they're like,
okay, we'll bow to you more because the people want you by then. So you've got your hook in them to some degree. Right. That's so interesting because we did an episode on the cult of the Real Housewives and some Real Housewives become their, I mean, they're motivated by fame and clout and money to some degree, but not in the same way. It's like just to become more rich, not to become like
financially stable, but they are able to gain so much power in the favor of producers and such to like control their own destiny more than maybe like, you know, a welcome to Plathville situation. But that kind of brings me to like one of my last questions, which is about the power structure. So we often on this podcast try to break down the power dynamics of any given cult of the week, whether we're talking about Swifties or something more insidious.
In a reality TV family or in your experience, who would you say are the leaders in this quote unquote cultish scenario? I mean, I would say definitely the viewers are giving the ratings. The network is a leader because they're calling the shots. But ultimately, I think my dad had a lot of say so hand in hand with the viewers because he could say like, here's what we'll provide you. And
And then once he has a contract deal, then he's led by the network at that point. But he still had a lot of say so. You can have some negotiating power within how a scene's going to be, but you can't just say, if the network absolutely wants it, we're just not going to film this daughter's wedding. If the network wants it, that's fine.
I think it's easy to see who's in control whenever you think of like the fallout. So if we were to leave, then who's going to take the brunt? Who's going to respond? It's probably the network and my dad. When we were getting so much pushback from her dad, Jill helped me put it into perspective thinking he's just acting like this because he's worried about getting fired.
He's feeling the heat. He's feeling the heat. Like one of the advantages, unfortunately, to the way he did it was like, like manipulating everyone was that the network only had to deal with one person. Like he said, like a pimp, he's like, I can give you the services of these families. I'm not going to ask them if they want to be involved in this on this level, but I will give you all
All the big life events of all these different kids of mine, and they just have to deal with one person. They don't have to get agreement from everyone. But then it looks bad on him if, like in our situation, we just aren't aware of his agreement that he made to give our services over to them.
And that's not in line with our family's plans and future. And to be clear, it was just my services. Like Derek never signed anything. Yes, I never signed anything. But like, obviously, as a married couple, if I moved to another country, I'm not going to leave my wife and kid behind. So, but he like put on the heat because it puts him in a bad situation because he's obligated Jill services for a certain period of years and
And then if we're saying that's not going to jive with our family plans, he's already given them his word and he's basically going to get fired if he doesn't hold to his side of the deal that he provided her services. Yeah. So I think the network obviously has a lot of power. And then the viewers, because they're providing the ratings that make the network want to come back and say, hey, let's sign another deal.
So, it's everybody right there. And then in the religious side of it, this group that we were part of, they ended up ousting the founder because he was allegedly involved in a bunch of...
Well, he was accused of like a lot of sexual misconduct. The way they organized the power structures was really conducive for a single person wanting to manage a reality show. The IBLP teaches that like the father is the head of everything, even after you're married.
Yeah, you have to get your parents blessings. So if you step out from under that you're opening yourself up to potential problems, harm, whatever. So it kind of keeps you in there like out of fear that also came into play even with the show because
Like I said, I was a very people-pleasing person. And then on top of that, having this religious view. It's one thing if you're a little kid under your parents' roof. Yes, you should obey them. They say, do your homework. Yeah, do your homework. But when you're an adult and you're not even under their roof, you're not under them financially, and they're still trying to call the shots or say that you have to get their approval or their blessing for everything, especially when you're in this family business ministry thing with whores.
horrible structure. It's very messy. But the IVLP cult allowed the reality show to like probably persist a lot longer than it should have because everyone's like, oh, well, we have to do what Jim Bob says, but even if we don't want to. Okay. So just one more question. Since parting from the life that you were leading before, what are some key lessons that you've taken with you? Like, how are you moving forward?
Yeah, so there are a lot of positives. I think it's been nearly 10 years here where Derek and I have been working through this stuff slowly at first, not really realizing the depth of everything that I had grown up in and all until we faced that resistance. But now moving forward, we have three kids that are young. And so that's always fun. Three boys, I will add. They're very busy boys. And so raising them, Derek's...
working as an attorney. You can tell whatever you want. I was just going to say, one thing that we've grown in relationally is just based on our experience the last 10 years is not to make a decision or a move as a couple until you're both in agreement. So I think early on, I was tempted to push Jill more than I probably should have to be like, hey, this is weird. This is bad. This is
But then like if we had... But you also exercised a lot of patience. Early on, like it would not have been healthy if I was like, no, you need to leave the show right now. This is like toxic. Why are we doing this? It would have like harmed our relationship. And we saw that proved true too once we were like actually getting to more on the same page and...
and getting more pushback from her dad, he would say, who is this? You're not like this sweet jelly muffin. Like, is this you or Derek? Is this you or Derek who's behind all this or whatever? But like, that would be really harmful in a young marriage. Yeah, I think that is a good point because we have talked with people, one person in particular who was saying they tried to make some decisions too soon, impress their spouse too soon. I think personally, they didn't say this, but they were telling us what they had done and what was going on. And
And, yeah, the girl, like, freaked out and, like, pregnant and, like, moved back home. She was already pregnant and married and she left and moved back home. And she's, like, living at her parents' house now pregnant and, like, just...
just because that's like so ingrained in you so I can see that right man that's like if your parents say in this IBLP cult like not every family is the same like some might say no you're your own family but like others might try to exercise that control that they've gotten so used to and say this is the wrong guy you married he's leading you to like wear pants now this is just so wrong and immoral and you need to move back home and like you already face enough struggles as a young couple so I think
one thing that has helped us going forward is like, you can give yourself space and time. Like you should not feel rushed into a decision. So even if you need space, a lot of times people will give you a little more grace too. On the other end, if you're not just like pointing fingers, you're the problem. But like, I need some space. Another thing that was helpful to us was like two people when they become their own family,
You have to kind of decide, like, what's our identity going to be as a couple? Like, not throw the baby out with the bathwater and just be like, well, because this is part of this, then we don't want that either. But, like, you might say, well, I like that aspect of my childhood, so...
Like we can make that our own, but we really don't like this. And we're going to make, we're going to get rid of that completely. That's like toxic. My sister, Ginger, who wrote a book earlier this year, she talked a lot about her faith journey and she talks about it as disentangling. So it's really hard. Like the process for anyone, regardless of where you land is,
It's hard and I get that. And like, I think honestly, a lot of it has to do with your triggers and processing that as well. - One of the biggest things that we can teach our sons, and I say sons just because we don't have daughters, but like our three sons is to think for themselves. Like if there's some things that like they get older and they realize we got wrong or like they feel differently about that, then we want them to be able to think through those things and know, okay, this is true because it's true. And this is a little bit different than the way I might want to live and that's fine.
And the more that I can help our kids, like they don't think about it too much now. They're eight, six and one. But as they get older, the more that we can help them think for themselves, they can use those tools to kind of like work through these things. It's been something to where we going forward have tried also to recognize the positives in our story, because I think sometimes I will feel guilty with something.
The hard parts of my story or feeling like both can't be valid at the same time, but they can be. And so one thing I point out in our book, Counting the Costs, is that
how it's kind of like roses and thorns. Like there are very rosy parts of your story and also sometimes very thorny parts. So it's okay to acknowledge both. Our kids are going to have things like that too, where we get it wrong as parents. So moving forward, trying to keep things in perspective. You're always telling me that Derek's always saying, keep it in perspective. Yeah, it's hard. It's a lot more complicated than that, but.
Of course, but that's such a hopeful message and no one's ever going to figure it out and suddenly have the answers, right? And anyone who claims that they do is a goal leader.
Okay, culties, before we get into the verdict, I wanted to tell you a little bit more about my new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking Notes on Modern Irrationality. It's a book where every chapter is dedicated to a different cognitive bias, a kind of like deep rooted mental magic trick that we play on ourselves.
which I use as a lens to explore some mysterious irrationality plaguing the zeitgeist at large and my own life, from how a bias called the halo effect can explain extreme cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement and how that phenomenon connects to our own attachments to our own mothers, to how the sunk cost fallacy kept me in a toxic cult-like relationship for many formative years of my life,
The book basically highlights the advantages and pitfalls of magical thinking in the information age. How the sort of irrationalities and mysticisms that we naturally have as human beings are clashing with this particular information overloaded time. Chapter titles include Are You My Mother, Taylor Swift? That's the one on the halo effect.
I swear I manifested this. A note on proportionality bias. Sorry I'm late. Must be mercury in retrograde. A note on confirmation bias. And so many more. The book comes out April 9th, 2024, but it's available for pre-order now. Even if you've never pre-ordered a book in your life, I...
gently beg that you consider pre-ordering this one because pre-orders are so important for authors and I would appreciate it so, so much. I'm also going to be going on a book tour next year and another fun announcement is that I'm going to be launching a new podcast called Magical Overthinkers to pay
hair with the book. So lots of good stuff on the horizon. If you want to pre-order The Age of Magical Overthinking, and again, I please, please ask that you do, you can find the link in our show notes or just go to simonandschuster.com. And if you want to keep up with news about the book, behind the scenes about the book, as well as the forthcoming Magical Overthinkers podcast, you can do so on my newsletter, amandamontell.substack.com.
I also just want to thank you all so much for your support of this podcast and of my last book, Cultish. And I truly, truly can't wait for what's to come next, next. Okay, now on to Jill and Derek's culty verdict. Okay, reality TV families, do you think that they are a cult? And if so, are they a live your life, a watch your back,
or a get the fuck out level cult. I think it depends on the family. Yeah, I do too. Like along the spectrum, you've got like the bougie whatever, and then you've got like the ones who are preyed upon more by the networks where it's almost like the networks are more like the bad actor in those situations. Totally. So I thought there's even a spectrum among reality TV. For sure. I guess in this case, I would say if we had to put a label on the overall category, it might be a watcher back.
Because some are worse than others. Yes. Yeah. That's what I was leaning for. Okay. Although I happen to think that this one is teetering dangerously close to a get the fuck out. Oh.
Well, I just want to thank you both so much for being my guests on this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. This is truly my favorite sort of topic to discuss this sort of nexus between fringy religious cultishness and fringy pop culture cultishness. So thank you so much. Where can listeners keep up with you and your family and your work?
So we are on social media, Facebook, Instagram, all the things. LinkedIn. LinkedIn, Derek. And then our book is also available wherever books are sold. We made New York Times bestseller, so counting the cost. And recently on the list of top
audiobooks of the year. Audible, yeah, audiobooks. And thank you guys for your support. Check it out, Counting the Cost. Amazing. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty.
Sounds Like a Cult was created and hosted by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. This episode was edited and mixed by Jordan Moore of The Podcabin. Our theme music is by Casey Kolb. To join the Sounds Like a Cult cult, follow the podcast on Instagram at soundslikeacultpod.
You can find me on the internet on Instagram at Amanda underscore Montel or on Substack at amandamontel.substack.com. And feel free to check out my books, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, or the forthcoming The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. And if you like the show, feel free to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts.
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