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The views expressed on this episode are solely my opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian.
Every week on the show, we discuss a different group that puts the cult in culture, from Disney adults to Instagram therapists, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?
Okay, ladies and ladies and gentlemen and theys and thems, we are here today to talk about the cult that you are actually actively being a part of. Right now, you are a part of it. I am a part of it. Anyone listening to a podcast is a part of it. I'm so excited to talk about the most meta cult we have covered to this day, the cult of podcasting. And
Baby, we're going to talk about it because I love episodes where we chit chat about the cult that I've been a part of. You know, it's like I can speak on personal experience and glad I joined the cult of podcasting. And I feel like you are too, or else you wouldn't be listening to this episode. But it is important to talk.
look at it and see how culty is it really. I actually wasn't really a part of the cult of podcasting before Amanda and I started this podcast because I don't know, I could never really like get into podcasting that much. And maybe it was because I
had a short attention span, but nothing changed that like the pandemic and being alone with my thoughts. I did not want to be alone. And that's really when we got into the cult of podcasting. So after having the podcast for about two years, Amanda and I started to do
live shows. We only did two. So we did a live show in Los Angeles and we did a live show in London. And we thought, what better cult to cover live than the cult of podcasting? I mean, we have to be self-aware. If we're going to call everything a cult, we have to look at ourselves. But before we talk to our guest today, I want to talk a little bit about the history of podcasting. What is podcasting? Because if you're listening to this, you should know what it is.
Podcasting is... I'm just kidding. I'm not going to do that right now because if you're listening to this, you know what podcasting is. And I'm going to tell you a bit more about it throughout this interview with today's very special guest. Not only is she a member of the cult of podcasting, but she's also a member of the cult of stand-up comedy and the cult of motherhood, aka she's a mother. ♪
Okay, so first and foremost, can you please introduce yourself and your work and how you're involved in the cult of podcasting? Hello, my name is Cara Clank. I am a stand-up comedian, a writer, and a podcast host. Yes. I have my own podcast. It's called That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast. It is co-hosted by the very funny Liza Traeger. And we talk about Law & Order SVU. We talk about the true crimes that the episodes are based on.
And then we interview an actor from the show. And we've been on a break from actors because of the strike. And now we'll be back to getting our actors back. So that's exciting. I'm so excited to talk about the cult of podcasting because it's very meta. Yeah. And we are both in it. We are in an inception right now. We are in. We're incepting ourselves. We are incepting ourselves. But then there's also like the two sides of the cult, which is like the listeners. Actually, I think there's three sides. There's the listeners. There's the hosts. And then there's like.
the industry. Yeah. And I think the industry aspect of it has grown a lot more in the last couple of years. But I do want to say like the reason I wanted to do this episode was because it's the subject that Amanda and I covered when we did our live shows. Okay. Because we're like we want to be self-aware. We know this is kind of a cult but we also know that like some cults are fun and exciting. Yeah. And like you mentioned you were like googling like the cult of
podcasting. Oh yeah, I was like, in preparation for this, I was like, I'm just gonna Google if anyone has written a think piece about the cult of podcasting, but when you Google it, it's just you guys. Or it's like, podcast about cults, or you guys...
like are the third search. Yeah. It's literally like if you put the word podcast and cult next to each other, it's just, it's like ASAP. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's immediate. Yeah. Immediately us, which is amazing for the algorithm. Yeah. Why don't I have more Instagram posts? But I, I wanted to ask you, okay, like right up top, just to get started, what do you think is the cultiest thing about podcasts? Well, I mean, for me, it's,
it's like, and I like do not, this is like not to be taken like in a disparaging way to any of our listeners. Cause I love each and every one of them. They're all, we have the most amazing listeners. We have like fucking lawyers, social workers, FBI people. Like we just like, every time we're like, we don't know about this. Can you guys let us know? Like we just get floods of DMs from like very cool professional people. We have a lot of women and gay men and we have some straight men too, but like we just have a great audience. So like I would never say anything bad about them.
But I do think, and a lot of them will even say to us at the live shows, there is like a parasocial thing that is the main part of it. Where I just sit there for, I have sat there on a mic for hours and hours and hours talking about myself, talking about my co-host, talking about her life, talking about our friendship, like talking about my kids, my
personal stuff about myself and then they come and they see me live and they're like I do feel like I'm meeting my best friend right now but you don't know me and I'm like yeah and that's that is weird and I guess I don't know because I haven't really had a podcast that's like that for me like yeah I have podcasts that I love but I never feel like I never really have felt like oh I
I'm friends with this person. I don't know. I feel like I want them to feel like they're friends with me. I want that. I've had that same experience. And I think it's like so lovely. Like when a listener of the podcast will come up to me and be like, oh my gosh, I feel like I know you. I feel like we're already friends. And it's amazing because like, and I don't say this like to suck up to the listeners, but I love the listeners.
But honestly, like when I have a fan of the podcast come up to me, I'm like, I already knew. Like I kind of knew the vibe. Like do your listeners kind of have a similar vibe? No, that's what's crazy. They're so various. Really? It's crazy. Like I will be...
In LA, I don't really ever get recognized except at my Target. At my Target, I have had multiple times people come up to me and say, oh my God, I listened to your podcast or I just heard your voice in the aisle. So, but they're probably like listening to it while they're at Target. Yeah, they're like shopping for Clorox wipes and getting me in their ear and then I'm there like telling my daughter to not like drop beer bottles on the ground. I think,
the reason I can spot them is because like if a fan of the podcast comes to a comedy show they're not like I feel like they're not like normally a stand-up comedy fan and because they're very smiley like happy people who are just like excited to be there and so I'm just like that's a fan of the podcast because like people who like love stand-up comedy are like sitting in the back of a dark room
like with their arms crossed being like go ahead yeah being like make me laugh and like a fan of the podcast will be there front row because they don't know that like you get picked on yeah front row full smile on their face I agree with that like if people do come to my stand-up show that's here in LA um
If I talk to them for a second, I'm like, oh, they listen to the pod. Because they have like a joy they get from the podcast that hasn't been like killed out of them from like going to hours and hours of stand-up comedy shows. Yeah, exactly. So you have been doing the podcast, you said, for like almost three and a half, three years? Three years, yeah. Coming up on three years. Do you think there were like any like barriers to entry kind of like a regular cult vibe to like –
go up the ranks of the podcasting space? Well, that like, what's interesting. I don't know how you feel, but like, it feels like right now podcasting is like at such a peak saturation. Like I meet so many people all the time that are like, can I pick your brain about podcasting? And my, I'm always like, I don't want to be mean, but like, don't start one. I'm like, unless you want to just do it for fun. Like, and you really just like, it's for fun. It's for like proof of concept for something you're doing for work or whatever. But if it's like, you're trying to like,
gain a following and like achieve something from like something financial or whatever from it. It's like, it's so difficult right now. I agree. And so like, I mean, for me, you started what you guys started with, like on no network, right? With nothing, no network. And it's actually funny that you mentioned like the words proof of concept because it was like, we were both like, let's just do our best.
You know, we were like, let's just make like 10 to 12 amazing episodes and see if it goes somewhere. And if it doesn't go somewhere, like I'm a comedian and a producer and like you're an author and like it will be it like it will be something that we like have worked on together that we can show we're like good at making things. And so around like the 10th or 12th episode, we kind of hit something. But our numbers did start to go up. I think this girl at Spotify like put us on the homepage, right?
you are but thank you she really helped us out and it kind of like shot up and then in that moment Amanda and I were like oh we need to release more episodes to like
like catapult off of this like followership. And so we released like the Cult of Lula Roe and then the documentary came out at the same time. And so it was like another force that it just kind of started growing. I dressed as that. My husband and I dressed as those people for Halloween party. Oh, that's so smart. It was great. Because it's also so comfortable. Yeah. Well, my husband and I both wore leggings, but he was the man. Yeah. He was the man and I was the woman of the couple. Oh, the main couple. You didn't like...
No, we weren't just like Lula Rose salespeople. We were like the CEOs that are in the documentary. That's so funny. So my husband wore like the beard and like the whatever. And like I think maybe we, I don't think he gave him a wig because his hair is already kind of salt and peppery. And then he wore a suit jacket and like tie, but then with leggings underneath. And I got like the ugliest leggings I could find on Amazon. And I wore like a rose colored blazer that like she wore in the documentary and like a blonde wig. That's so funny. Yeah, it was, I like to be for Halloween things.
that are top of mind. Yeah. But,
That's amazing. What I was going to say is like you guys, that's like so admirable that you came out of nowhere because like we started on a network and like I had no idea sort of the cult of podcasting until I'm friends with Karen and Georgia from My Favorite Murder. Yeah. And I remember one of them like added me to their Facebook group and I was like, oh cute. Yeah, I'll follow their podcast, whatever. I don't know what this is, but they're my friends. And then like I remember one day I like looked at it and like,
the number of people in it was like 500,000 people or something or like, or like a hundred thousand people. I was like, what the hell? So you like knew them before it blew up. I had no idea that it had blown up. Like I just didn't know. Cause at that time, I think at that time I still was living in New York. So it's like, I would see them when I would come to LA. Then I moved to LA, saw how big it was for them and was like, wow, like this is wild. Like, and so, um,
I think we get a little bit of splashback from their fandom is so intense. So a lot of people are like, they come to our podcasts, like live shows and they're like, we love Karen and Georgia. We love you guys too. Like they see us sort of as like an extension of them. Yeah. And so that's always like a little bit crazy. Yeah. I'm like, I think we have, we, I know we have a lot of listeners from Karen and Georgia because actually, um,
So it was like we had that bump from that person put us on the homepage of Spotify and then like the LuLaRoe bump. And then I remember the first time any friend of mine ever texted me about the podcast after I'd been posting about it for months on my social media was multiple texts in one day being like, oh my God, Karen and Georgia mentioned you on the podcast. And that was our next bump. And I had moments like that as well where they would just talk about seeing me at a party. Like this was way before I was ever on their network. Yeah.
because I actually like it's very important to me to clarify that we went through like fully official channels to get on the network like I never was like hey friends can I be on your network like we fully pitched like through their people like everything through representatives and like did a did a pilot for them you're not a nepo friend getting in here yeah but like but like I remember I was like oh wow I've been doing stand-up comedy for a decade I've been like on tv a few times I've done all these like I've done little talking heads things and like
The most random high school people coming out of the woodwork ever is like, Karen and Georgia, did they just talk about you on their podcast? And I was like...
Yeah, I had no idea what like a humongous following they had. So that was when I first realized like, oh damn, like podcasting is like really wild. And then I'm also friends with like a lot of people from Last Podcast on the left. Like that's a group of my friends as well. And they have like a crazy loyal following. Yeah. The same kind of deal. When I was in New York,
There was this podcast called Keith and the girl that everybody wanted to get on. Have you ever heard of it? It's one of the first podcasts. I think it's still on and everybody wanted to get on it. It was like, you went on and they would kind of like ask you about like comedy gossip and they'd ask you about like, you know, like I went on after me and my now husband had broken up and like got back together. I have two kids now. Yeah. We got back together. Spoiler. We have two kids, but like they had him on to like talk about our breakup. Remember what year it was?
Oh, they started that podcast way early. So it was on in like the early 2000s. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't until a little fun fact. It wasn't until 2004 that the word podcast was coined by the Guardian columnist Ben Hammersley. And it's apparently a portmanteau, which is a combination of two words of iPod and broadcast. Oh my God. I did not know that. Yeah. I never understood why it was called that. And I was always like,
to me that was a barrier to entry of people getting into it. Because I was like, you should kind of just call it an internet radio show or something. Like it's just kind of like your own radio program. Yeah, it's essentially like a radio show. And I think that's why people think it's an entirely different industry because of that word. And in 2006, Steve Jobs demonstrated how to record a podcast using GarageBand during like one of his keynote speeches, which is I think like really what led to like
The fact that it's such a grassroots movement, you know, like anyone can make a, I mean, we're literally recording this in my living room with like a recorder and two mics. And it's like anyone can make a podcast, but it is. But they shouldn't. And it's funny because it's like,
I knew that I should have a podcast as a comedian, but I didn't want to make a podcast until I was like bored enough during the pandemic that I was like, yeah, I'll make a podcast with a friend. Sometimes I think podcasting in and of itself is kind of a multi-level marketing scheme because there are podcasts that like teach you how to make a podcast. And there are podcasts that tell you, you should make a podcast. It'll make you rich. And it's like,
It's a lot of work. Like we put hours and hours of work into this podcast to edit it, to release it, to cut clips, to post on social media. It's not something that just blows up overnight. Like Apple Podcasts is like a graveyard of podcasts that people released five episodes and then gave up. You know, like if you go search for a name for a podcast, you'll find like a cute pithy like punny name for a podcast has nothing.
Six results, but you're like, oh, but last episode was posted in 2018. Yeah. So like I found a stat that was like, according to Amplify and Pod News, 44% of podcasts have less than three episodes.
44%. And you know, 1% of podcasts make a dollar. Yeah. Like I read that statistic a long time ago that like 1% of podcasts make any money. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's wild. And so I do think that that's kind of a culty aspect of podcasting that like everyone's like, you should make a podcast. Yeah.
I do think that it's great that everyone can make a podcast. I think that's a green flag of the cult of podcasting. But I also think that the idea that you have to keep going longer and longer and you just have to put the time in. Yes. I think that's an idea...
by cults like the Joe Rogan podcast where they're like, oh, he just did it for so long that then he blew up. It's like, no, he just was one of the first podcasts. Exactly. That's the thing. It's like if someone wants to start now, I would still not say, oh, yeah, if you do it for five years, like you'll get some success. Like because...
That's old. Like, I don't know. There's this podcast called Watch What Crappens. I don't listen to it, but it's every day. It's five days a week and it's about all the Bravo shows. These two guys, they talk about every single thing that comes out on Bravo and they just, I would say, blew up like three years ago maybe. Like, but they've been doing it for 10 years. What? Like, they've been doing it for 10 years, I think, and they, and,
Please like don't come for me if I'm wrong about the statistics. I'm literally trying to give these guys a compliment. They did it forever before I think they really blew up. And I went and saw them with a friend at like a theater in LA that I was like, my podcast wouldn't sell this out. You know, like that's so unprobable. Like that's so much less likely to happen now, especially. And that's why like,
I'll say anyone who wants to like sure start a podcast, but I think analyze the cost benefit analysis of like what your free time is worth. Here's the other thing is like now as of the past like three years,
from pandemic on we're competing with celebrities. Yeah. Like that was never a thing. It was always podcasting was just like oh you're I listen to this podcast that I love called Who Weekly. Yeah. And it's divides it's about the celebrity world of the people that you've never heard of. Yeah. So the who's. Yeah. Like them's are like the Julia Roberts is whatever the who's are like the random tick tocker you don't know but they make millions of dollars. I talk
about that all the time. I'm like, there are so many famous people. I'll find someone with 5 million followers on Instagram and I'm like, who is this person? Yeah, I've never heard that person. So to me, there are podcasting thems or whatever. Like, I mean,
Not Karen and Georgia at this point. I feel like a lot of people know who they are outside of that. But like that was like... It was its own little sphere. And now it's like smartless. And every celeb has their own podcast. And so it's even harder to like come out of the... Like what's that girl like...
Radjikowski or Emrata. Oh, Emrata. Like she started a podcast and promoted it on late night. You know, it's like that's what we're competing with. Yeah. That makes me think of something that I wanted to talk about, which is like the idea of like us versus them mentality. So I feel like, you know, regular cults we know have us versus them mentality. But something that I've experienced from
from having a podcast is that it's not really zero sum. Like people who listen to our podcast to Sounds Like a Cult also have three to four other favorite podcasts and they have a rotation. And so I don't think that just because like you like one podcast means that you're like anti other podcasts.
podcasts. Like, what do you think? Do you think that exists? No, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, like people are like, we have so many followers that are like my favorite murder and you guys, we love you guys like, or whatever, but they also listen to tons of others. There's some crossover of podcasts that I like as well. Like, so absolutely. So I have a question for you. Yeah. I was told early on in the podcasting game that I,
The way to see whether people are listening to a podcast is how many reviews they have on it. I heard that too. So I was wondering, so that's what I think also contributes to the cult is that for me, people come to see our podcast and they think we're like Karen and Georgia. Like we've been on like for years and years we have, we tour in Australia and like sell out the Sydney opera house and stuff like that. I'm like, well, we're not quite there. You know, like we're not there yet at all. Yeah. And so to me, there's something about the cult in the cult of podcasting, the cloudiness of who is actually winning. Yeah.
Yes. In that field. Yes. Who is? Because you brought up Emrata having a podcast. You brought up, I remember like I just brought up Kelly Ripa having this podcast. Jesse Tyler Ferguson has a podcast where he interviews people over dinner or something. It's called like dinner's on me or something like that.
And I like looked up, like I'm psycho. I look up how many reviews people have. Yeah. And they don't have that many reviews. And I'm like, my podcast has more reviews than this very famous person who has other very famous person on their podcast as their guests. Yeah. And so to me, there's something very interesting about like, what if we lived in a world of television where no one had any idea really about the Nielsen ratings? Yeah. Like we had no idea who is doing well. That's what I think is so nice about TV that like,
I still, the reason I still want to work in TV is because it's, it's like still an art form where like there's no comment section. Yeah. There's no like, sure. There's like rotten tomatoes or whatever, but like it doesn't live under the product. Yeah. But I think that's actually a thing that is culty about the podcasting space, the reviews, because even though we think the reviews are linked to the number of streams, we're
nobody talks about how many downloads they actually have. Yeah. Like it's so gatekeepy in the podcasting space to ask somebody else, how many downloads do you have? You know, it's almost like asking them how much money do you make a year? Well, and like, I remember I was watching the real housewife. I'm a, I'm a Bravo girl, as you can probably tell. But like I was watching Potomac and two of the women on Bravo, a real housewives of Potomac have a podcast and they had a big thing of like,
celebrating 1 million downloads. And I was like, that's not that many downloads. Like all time? Like that's not that many downloads. For monetary success, that's not that many downloads. So it's just funny because nobody knows what the metrics are. It's like, you know, it's like in...
Any cult like who's running things? How much money are we taking? Yeah. What's going on? You know, we always talk about that on the podcast of like, I think the cultiest groups are the groups where like you don't know who the leader is. Yeah. I don't know who's running the system because it's like a shadow system.
organization of like different sleeper cells. Yeah. And I think as like the podcasting industry has grown, there's so many platforms. Like, I mean, even just like hosting platforms like Libsyn or Omni or like, which is you had taken care of for you because like you started with a network. Yeah. But when we started the podcast, we literally like manually created our own feed and uploaded things ourselves. And so those podcasting platforms are
don't share statistics with each other. And so everyone is kind of in the dark on how much everyone is making. Yeah. Other than ad agencies. I feel like in a way, maybe like ad agencies are the ones who like run ads.
The universe? Yeah, I don't know. But like I'll see a podcast that's like very popular. Or like Lisa was just looking up a podcast that is super popular on Instagram and TikTok. And it had like 14 reviews on Apple. Money aside, I think there's a lot of podcasts that are just social media clip podcasts. Yeah.
like how much how many followers a podcast has on instagram is not equate to the number of listener downloads that they have totally we're getting in the weeds we talked about how podcast fans can be culty with like the parasocial relationship and like light-hearted intense ways what do you think is the cultiest thing you've ever seen or heard like a podcast fan do with you specifically
Or whether it be you or another podcast. I mean, with us specifically, like, we have this one girl that has come to, like, four live shows at different cities across the country. And she's coming to, like, two more in, like, next month. You're her Harry Styles. Yeah, and... But she's cool. Like, when we see her, we're like, what's up, girl? We, like, know about her. Like... Yeah. She's not, like...
a crazed fan. She just like likes us. And I think she uses our podcast touring as an excuse to travel. That's amazing. Like, I think she's like, Oh cool. The girls I like are going to be in this city. I've never been there. I'm going to go there. Yeah. And then it's kind of like you have friends to meet. Yeah. We don't see her. We're not like, Oh, like we were like, Oh fun. This fun girl, you know? Like, so it is like,
That's probably the most extreme so far for us. But people, they bring us things. They make us things. They bring me presents for my kids. Yeah. And part of me is like, oh, should I be giving random stranger presents to my kids? But I kind of take everything with a grain of salt. Yeah, one thing at a time. Totally. Grain of salt. I'll be honest. A lot of times I go, look what I got you. Yeah. Yeah.
Like a re-gift. Yeah, it's amazing. Like, look at the stuffy I got you. And it's just like a really, really thoughtful stuffy that a listener was like, I know your daughter likes this, and so I got her this. And they got it for your kids? What am I going to say? Like, this person that you don't know. Like, they don't understand the concept of strangers. So sometimes I'll just be like, look, these are gifts that...
you know, sometimes I'll say a friend gave it to me or whatever. Yeah. Well, I feel like that's a sign of like the green flag that is your podcast. The fact that like your listeners aren't too wild because I feel like there are other podcasts out there like Joe Rogan don't come for me. But I mean, for me, when I think like what's the cultiest thing that some of his listeners have done, it's like not get vaccinated because he told you to. Yeah.
That's like literally what is happening. And that's what I like about our listeners is like they'll write us and they'll be like, I love you guys. But like what you're saying about X, I fully disagree with. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. Like, yes. Like to have your own mind is like so important in the cult of podcasting because it is fascinating.
fucking crazy some of these podcasts where they're like, oh, well, they told me to do this, so I'm doing it. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about like the power that big podcasters wield. I think there is like these big podcasters that wield so much power. So on the podcast, we always wanted to cover the cult of Rogan, but we've actually been told by...
people in the industry not to do an episode on the Cult of Rogan because their listeners will come for us and tank our ratings. And so we have avoided it. But I want to talk about his background a little bit. He was a wrestler turned comedian. He has the most popular podcast in the world, according to a report by Time Magazine. He has an estimated 11 million listeners per episode and over 70% of them are men. Wow.
which is great and what we need in the world. But, but who are these women? But,
But who are these women? 30% are women that are just like, yeah, we love fucking Rogan. It's giving pick me. Yes. I actually, this is so unrelated, but I got in an Uber the other day and I was like chatting with the Uber driver, just like making small talk. And he was kind of cute. He kind of looked like Bad Bunny. And I was like, oh, what? Like, I don't know. Maybe he's cute. But then he was like, yeah, when I listened to Rogan, I was like, I have to get out of the car. It is like, it's so funny how it's become like a deal breaker with women, like on like dating sites and stuff too. Yeah.
And so I think one of like the worst case scenarios was when Rogan invited Dr. Robert Malone onto his podcast in 2021 and Malone who has been banned from Twitter for spreading COVID misinformation claimed that mandates of an experimental vaccine are explicitly illegal. And he said that the U S government was out of control.
And both Rogan and Dr. Malone were criticized for promoting several baseless conspiracy theories, including the false claim that hospitals are financially incentivized to falsely diagnose deaths as have been caused by COVID-19 and that world leaders had hypnotized the public into supporting the vaccine. So,
I just wanted to touch on that a little bit because I feel like that is kind of a worst case scenario of like the power that podcasters hold when their listeners will do anything that they say. And I wonder statistically, like how many people did he tell not to get the vaccine? You know, how many people did he affect? Out of 11 million people, how many people per episode, how many of those 11 million were like, I'm not going to do it because Joe Rogan told me not to. Yeah.
I don't know. I mean, it's really, it's wild. And I also feel like there's some, there's some, my cohost Lisa and I have talked about this too. We're like, there's some huge issues that Rogan's never touched on. Yeah. And you're like, but you can talk about anything. You're this free, like educated, free thinking guy. Why are, where are you, where are you on abortion? Like, where are you on some of these things? Like,
And, you know, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure you will. But like, because I don't listen to Rogan. But from what I've heard, he does not touch on that. He doesn't talk about that. It almost bothers me because it feels like he doesn't touch on things he is himself liberal on. Yeah. So that he can continue to be perceived as a conservative figure. Which is frustrating because...
Silence is violence. Yeah, exactly, baby. Yeah, in a way it's like, yeah, I'm such a free thinker, but it's like you're pandering a little bit. Yeah. You know? Yeah, I mean, yeah, of course he's pandering. I am so excited to tell you about this iPhone game that I am newly absolutely obsessed with. It's called June's Journey. If you're a true crime fan, but you don't like anything too violent, I feel like this game is totally going to be up your alley. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game that takes place in the 1920s. So the aesthetic is very colorful.
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So we've talked a little bit about the parasocial relationships, the worst case scenario with like Joe Rogan. And it's important to talk about those hosts, you know, the influence that podcast hosts have over you as a listener. But I do want to say, you know, at least on like Sounds Like a Cult, our whole thing,
thing is to be like question everything yeah like question like the groups that you're a part of question the news that you read always get like multiple sources like we say that all the time on the show is like do your research on things because I feel like you can listen to someone but you don't know if they're telling the truth yeah yeah yeah and ultimately it's this is an entertainment podcast but at the same time I listen to podcasts with people that I love and
And they'll say something that I'm like, I completely disagree with that. It has never occurred to me to message them and tell them that. It has never occurred to me to leave a review saying, I'm leaving. Yeah. Because you said this thing I don't like. Like, I don't know. That's just like, that's not who I am. Me neither. And we get comments like that. And...
I have this rule where if I just lost a day one listener. Yeah. I have a rule where it's like if I hate comment is cruel and mean I'm like blocked goodbye. Yeah. But if I hate comment is funny I'm like like yeah like and subscribe. You got me there. I'm like if you want to be mean to me you just have to make me laugh. Yeah. We'll take it. But I'm not going to. That's a great that's a great
Yeah. It's the best policy. Yeah, somebody's like, you're fat and ugly and what you said about... It's like, no, goodbye. Yeah. You know? Yeah, because also I agree to your point of like... It's like...
I have visceral reactions, but I DM them to my friends like a normal person. Yeah. Like, it's like if I watch a standup clip that I hate, I will DM it to a friend and be like, this is the stupidest shit I've ever heard. I would never in a million years. Right. You have fat ankles. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, like go to like, well, first of all, go to like any YouTube clip of a female comic doing standup, like on late night or anything. And it's like,
I don't know. Her arms look weird. Like it's always just like horrible physical comments or whatever. But it is interesting because I would say in my mind, in a cult, the members don't really have a lot of agency to like speak up against the leadership. But in podcasting, there's almost too much. Yeah. There's so much feedback. And I also think it's really difficult because...
The level of feedback that you get is not equal to the amount of listeners that you have. And the hate is so loud. And it's so important to like not focus on that. And like, sure, like because you don't want to be a cult as a podcast, you don't want to have like authoritarian control. So you're going to listen to the comments and you're going to read, generally get the vibe of like what the feedback is. But if you focus too much on that, I think...
you carry the risk of like turning into a podcast that you originally weren't supposed to be. You have to like listen to your own gut and be like, this is the vibe. Yeah. You can't be like driven by feedback. Okay. So we talked a little bit about how, um,
The podcasting industry has grown so much in the last couple of years. And like you started out at a network. We started out independently, but it's like you still ultimately get to the same place once you hit a certain level of success. And I found it fascinating that like as early as 2013, Apple announced their first billion podcast subscribers. And then in 2021, they,
Podcast ad revenue was around $1.4 billion. And now in 2023, it's expected to be over $200 billion.
Whoa. So that just shows you how much podcasting has grown in the last couple of years. Well, in the pandemic, I think like popped that like, cause like smart list I think is like a product of the pandemic. Right. So a lot of these celebrity driven podcasts when everybody was at home and was like, I guess I have a microphone, you know? Yeah. And I also think it's,
It's the dual cult. So it's like from the cult of the hosts, they popped off because a lot of famous people didn't have anything to do. But from the cult of the listeners, that's when I started listening to podcasts during the pandemic because I was so lonely and had crippling anxiety and I didn't want to go grocery shopping like with a mask on.
or like 10 masks on without like listening to a soothing voice. Right. In my ear. Yeah. And it is like, I will say like, it's so nice when people, I meet them at the live shows and they're like, you helped me get through the pandemic. Like,
I love that because like what a fucking time we all went through. Like I don't feel like anyone is even really like emotionally been able to like take the take shock of how traumatic that was for a lot of people. And I really am like so happy that I could do any small tiny in like a small thing to help anybody get through that, you know? Yeah. And that's kind of like why you get into like I feel like entertainment and comedy. Like I originally studied like politics.
politics and human rights. And I was so miserable and making such little money that I was like, I need to be happy so that I can just have net positive influence. You know what I mean? I feel like if you're not doing what you love to do, then you're just a cranky person, which is worse for the world.
Yeah. Then like putting out good vibes. Yeah, man. Good vibes only. That's stand up comedy when I think about it. Yeah. Okay. So I want to touch on one last part of the cult of podcasting and then we're going to play a little game. So the last thing I want to touch on before the game and the verdict is the cult of streaming platforms. So you remember when Taylor Swift like boycotted Spotify? Took all her music off. So that she could get artists paid. Yeah.
I think about this all the time and I don't know if people know this or not, but we don't get paid by streaming platforms for our downloads. But musicians do. And musicians get paid like cents on the dollar, not a lot of money per listen of their song, but their songs are only like three minutes long.
And we have people on the platform listening for hours. Hours and hours. And we get no money. Who's going to boycott? It's not going to be me. I'm not going to be the one. I'm not going to be the Bethany Frankel for this cause. I'm not Taylor Swift. Yeah. I'm not Taylor Swift levels either. But it makes me wonder. But that is interesting.
Right? Like this is ultimately not free labor if you like have ads on, but then we also have to do the labor of finding those ads and booking those ads. And I don't take on ads that I don't actually like the product of. So like then that also...
falls on you the burden of the creator to only take sponsorships that you genuinely support yeah so it's like when are the streaming platforms gonna pay us well I feel that's also like why there's been like a huge move to patreon as well yeah that's why like there's a lot of people having a ton of success on patreon yeah because it's like oh yeah let's cut out these streaming platforms let's go straight to patreon yeah but
Because a lot of people think of Patreon as additional content, but it can be also like where podcasts just fully live. Yeah. The only, the issue with Patreon is that the interface isn't like easy to just like when you go on Spotify or when you go on Apple Podcasts. Yeah, it doesn't just like download into like a feed on your, but it can, but it's hard to do. Oh, really? You can get a Patreon to just like go into your Apple Podcasts. Oh, really? But it's like,
like a extra step. Yeah. And it's already hard enough to get people. My mom doesn't know what a podcast is. She's like, what, how do I watch it? I go, it's not something you watch. It's something you listen to. And she's like, what? Like, yeah, she has no idea what it is.
Yeah. I've been doing it for three years. That's so funny. So are you ready to play a culty game? Yes. Okay. So before we get to the verdict, I want to play a little game and it's a classic sounds like a cult game and it's called culty quotes. Ooh. So I'm going to read a quote, um, a series of quotes and you're going to decide if you think it's a cult followed podcast or
host that said it or a notorious cult leader from history. Okay. Okay. So the first quote is podcaster or cult leader. Yeah. You know, a long time ago, being crazy meant something. Nowadays, everybody's crazy. I want to say that that's a podcaster. No, that was Charles Manson. Oh my God.
I should fucking know that. I've listened. I've like, I have absorbed so much Manson family information in my life. Yeah. Like I've read about it. I've listened to podcasts about it. I've, oh my God. Well, now, you know, nowadays everybody's crazy and I don't, he wasn't wrong. Yeah. Okay. Next quote. We can be the victim of the world we see, or we can choose to perceive difficult past experiences as a catalyst for change.
That sounds like some Brene Brown shit or whatever. Is that a podcast host? Yeah. Yeah. Gabrielle Bernstein, host of Dear Gabby Self-Help Podcast. Okay. Okay. Next quote. That wasn't far off. No. Yeah. Next quote.
Truly happy people see the value in negativity. Wait, I sort of love that quote. Is that a cult leader? And I'm like about to join the cult? Yeah. Who said that? It was the cult leader, Teal Swan. Yes. I've never, I haven't watched all that stuff, but I really got her. Yeah. Yeah. It is a good quote. Truly happy people see the value in negativity. Because I think I'm a happy person, but I...
Sometimes you're just like, I'm walking here. Yeah. I love a little negativity. I love to talk shit a little bit. Yeah. Who doesn't? We all watch reality TV for a reason. I think of like cult people, like a lot of cult people being like, no negativity. Yeah. Everything's good. And that's why they snap. Yeah. One day. Okay. Next quote. I'm simply saying that there is a way to be sane. I'm saying that you can get rid of all this insanity created by the past in you just by being a simple witness of your thought process.
That sounds like the guy from The Vow. Oh, is that a cult leader? Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I messed it up. Keith Raniere is what I was going to say. It does sound like Keith Raniere who is infamously a cult leader, but it was Osho, the leader of the Rajneesh's slash Wild Wild Country. Wild Wild Country. Yeah. I fell asleep.
every night I tried to watch that yeah I could not stay awake for wild wild country I feel like it was just like a lot of like slow scenes yeah I was into it but I just kept falling asleep yeah it took me a really long time to get through it the final quote is it's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything
a podcaster yeah who said that joshua fields milburn who is one of the hosts of the minimalist podcast okay yeah cool it's kind of they're kind of culty but we had them on our show oh really back they don't wear shoes which is culty as hell yeah and they're no footwear is so culty yeah
And like, I, I'll be culty in my own home, you know, shoes off household, but outside. I'm not wearing shoes right now. Yeah. Um, in your household, that is, wow. I did. Okay. What did I get? Like a four out of five? Yeah, I think. Okay. So before we wrap up, what do you think the cult of podcasting is? Do you think it's a live your life, a watch your back or a get the fuck out level cult? Oh, I think it's a live your life.
Yeah. I think it's a live your life. I think that we've just touched on a bunch of it. Like there's feedback. There's like agency. You can leave whenever you want. Like, you know. Yeah. There's like, yeah. I just...
I worry about the people who are probably susceptible to this in other ways that are just like, yeah, I'm going to let a podcast host tell me like what to do with my health or what to do with my like. But those are probably the people who are susceptible to that in other aspects of their life too. Like if they didn't have Joe Rogan, would they be like, oh, my junior manager at work, Steve, he's really freaking smart and he told me not to get the vaccine so I'm not getting it. Yeah. You know, like would that be them if they didn't have
if they didn't have hands. Yeah, like they would have gotten it somewhere else. But I think, yeah, I think it's a live your life because there are so many aspects to it that you're listening to it from home, like the safety of your own home. You have, it's free. Yeah. Like,
All podcasts are free. No financial buy-in. No financial buy-in, which is huge. I think the cultiest aspect of podcasting is when you get involved in it. Because like I said, it is kind of like an MLM vibe. Like it's kind of like becoming an influencer in a way where like you're told that like it's the next big thing and like you can pop off from it. And there's so much money in podcasting, but it's like, it's a full ass time job. Yeah. It's so much work. It's like,
yeah you can make money in anything if you fucking succeed yeah yeah you know so it's like just keeping an eye out for like not falling down that rabbit hole of like creating a podcast for 20 years that like nobody listens to god or also when you listen to hosts it's like
Remember, like, we're people too. We're just regular ladies. We're just regular ladies. Do I want to be regular? No. I want to be more famous. No, I'm just kidding. But I am regular. I'm so regular. Yeah.
Even if I get famous, I still kind of want to be regular. Me too. I don't want anybody to tremble when they're meeting me. Like, I hate that. Me too. I'm just like, hi. I just want to say hi to you. Literally. You know, let's just talk like people. Exactly. No one's better than anyone. Nobody. I actually had that written on my fridge for a while. It's like, nobody is better than me. Really?
I am better than nobody. Yeah. That's what you have to remind yourself. Yeah. Cause it's like, then you hear about celebrities acting like assholes and it's like, yeah, because somebody let them think that they're better. I'm like, you're not better than anybody. You know? Yeah. You have to treat service people kindly. You have to treat others kindly. You have to help people. Like you just have to. Yeah, I agree. It's just so easy to be kind and treat others kindly, but thanks for coming on the show. Thank you so much. I feel like
this is an intervention. You're going to help me escape the cult of podcasting now. I think like I'm never going to escape the cult of podcasting at least for now. I'm starting a new podcast with my friend. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You're getting deeper. I'm getting deeper in the cult. Deeper, deeper in. But I think it's because
it's because I like, you know, I like, I enjoy the cult. Like we talk about it all the time. Like it's like a cult. You're like one of the girls on the vow that Keith chose to like open up the new center in Toronto. They're sending you out to like do a new one. Yeah. And I'm doing it with a friend. Her name's Lydia Keating. She was actually a guest on our,
a cult of marathon running episode. Ooh, the cult of running is wild. I actually used to do a standup joke about that. Yeah. Cause like runners will be like, yeah, I'm, I pissed myself and my nipples are bleeding, but like, wow, the runner's high. And it's like, girl, get yourself some help. Literally. And that's her, but in a good way, she like is a running influencer. She did our episode. So self-aware and, and,
We're starting a podcast and I'm so excited about it. So if you want to learn more about it, go to my Instagram or which is linked in the episode description and we'll continue on with the cult of podcasting. I can't wait to follow your new, your new. Thanks. And if our listeners want to follow you or listen to your podcast, where can they do that? My podcast is called that's messed up at SVU podcast. New episodes every Tuesday on exactly right media. You can get it wherever you get those pods. And, um,
I'm just Cara Clank on Instagram and Twitter. I mean, I'm getting off of that shit, but on Instagram, follow me on, uh, at Cara Clank and it's all K's. If you think there's a C, you're incorrect. Okay. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me, Isa. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Amanda will be back with a new episode next week, but in the meantime, stay culty.
Sounds Like a Cult was created, hosted, and produced by Issa Medina and Amanda Montel. This episode was edited, hosted, and produced by Issa Medina. Our theme music is by Casey Kolb. I'm on Instagram at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A, M-E-D-I-N-A-A. Or you can go on my website, issacomedy.com, I-S-A-C-O-M-E-D-E-Y.com, where you can tell me where to perform stand-up or get information on my new podcast that I'm launching in 2024.
And if you like the show, feel free to give us a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. I am so excited to tell you about this iPhone game that I am newly absolutely obsessed with. It's called June's Journey. If you're a true crime fan, but you don't like anything too violent, I feel like this game is totally going to be up your alley. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game that takes place in the 1920s. So the aesthetic is very colorful.
and vintagey. It centers on this protagonist named June who has to travel back to her family's luxurious island estate to solve the mystery of who murdered her sister. And you participate by finding hidden clues to help uncover the murder mystery. And I love that you also get to decorate the island estate as you go, which makes the game so fun and aesthetic and relaxing. I feel like I'm generally pretty bad at iPhone games.
games, but you truly cannot be bad at this one. I like to play it when I want to be on my phone, but I don't want to be on social media. I just want to relax and find something fun and distracting. It's great for that. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.
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