The Cult of Hollywood
55:41 Share

I am so excited to tell you about this iPhone game that I am newly absolutely obsessed with. It's called June's Journey. If you're a true crime fan, but you don't like anything too violent, I feel like this game is totally going to be up your alley. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game that takes place in the 1920s, so the aesthetic is very colorful.

and vintagey. It centers on this protagonist named June who has to travel back to her family's luxurious island estate to solve the mystery of who murdered her sister. And you participate by finding hidden clues to help uncover the murder mystery. And I love that you also get to decorate the island estate as you go, which makes the game so fun and aesthetic and relaxing. I feel like I'm generally pretty bad at iPhone games.

games, but you truly cannot be bad at this one. I like to play it when I want to be on my phone, but I don't want to be on social media. I just want to relax and find something fun and distracting. It's great for that. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

The national sales event is on at your Toyota dealer, making now the perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new car, like a legendary Camry. That's the car I drove growing up and I couldn't have asked for a more reliable vehicle.

Built for performance and available with all-wheel drive, you can count on your new Camry to get anywhere you need to go. And with available features like heated seats, ooh la la, and a multimedia touchscreen, you can stay connected in comfort and style. Or check out an affordable and reliable Corolla with a trim for every lifestyle.

from the hip and agile sedan to the sporty hatchback, there's a dependable Corolla built just for you. Plus, both Camrys and Corollas are available in hybrid models. So no matter your style, you can drive efficiently and affordably. So visit your local Toyota dealer and check out amazing national sales event deals on Camrys, Corollas, and more when you visit buyatoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places.

Thank you to our sponsor, Squarespace. Start with a free trial at squarespace.com. It's where dreams become websites. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to https colon slash slash www.squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

Kulti's the one robot that I hope takes over the world is the Litter-Robot. As a special offer to listeners of the show, go to stopscooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code SLAC to save an extra $50 on any Litter-Robot bundle. That's an extra $50 off any Litter-Robot bundle at stopscooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code SLAC at checkout. stopscooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code SLAC.

Listen up renters, you have got to learn about Built Rewards. Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to joinbuilt.com slash cult. That's join, B-I-L-T dot com slash cult. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Joinbuilt.com slash cult to start earning points with your rent payments today.

The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

That idea of fame in whatever venue that you're going to reach this enlightenment. You are going to be beyond reproach, completely lovable. That never comes. As we all know, anyone who has an internet presence, there's always at least 300,000 people who are not on board. Or a billion people who don't care. Right.

So, yeah, it's this weird mythical promise that isn't real. That cycle of do you love me? Do you hate me? Do you love me? Do you hate me? That's so addictive. Yes.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern-day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montell, author of the books Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show, you're going to hear us analyze a different cult-like group from the zeitgeist, from Starbucks to Jam Bams, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out level cult?

After all, we are living in what I believe to be truly the cultiest era of all time, with the goops and the corporate environments where you call your coworkers a family but they would fire you tomorrow. We are seeking belonging and connection and identity in so many fringy places these days, but not all cultishness is equally bad.

It truly falls on a spectrum, but I don't think anybody would dispute calling today's topic of discussion a cult. It's the cult of Hollywood.

Which is a spectrum in and of itself. I mean, on one end, you have this sort of innocuous aspirants hoping to achieve Tom Cruise level fame, which is essentially the equivalent of spiritual enlightenment in this society, all the way to overlap with legitimately terrifying groups like Scientology and the Mansons and figures like Harvey Weinstein.

There is always something newly culty happening in Hollywood, literally always. The latest spotlight on it at the time of this recording has to do with news that's come out about sexual predators on the sets of children's TV shows. And because of how rare it is to get a job in Hollywood combined with how hierarchical and patriarchal the sets are, men at the top...

can be very hard to question. And the fact that this sort of thing happens in an industry whose reputation is not like, I don't know, Wall Street or Silicon Valley, one of these industries that is inherently sort of sinister seeming. Instead, Hollywood seems frivolous.

and creative, and it appeals to the dreams of little kids as soon as they're old enough to watch TV and movies. Hollywood is pernicious for so many reasons. There is so much mysticism and scorn

And there's something about the glitz and dreaminess and even the delusion of...

Hollywood that keeps me here. I mean, that song, The Hotel California by the Eagles, is so accurate. You check into this town and once you've caught the bug, it kind of becomes really hard to check out. And if that's not culty, I don't know what is. When I first moved to LA when I was 22, not to become an actress, not to succeed in entertainment, but...

For other culty purposes, I was following a bad boyfriend out here. I really fell in love with this Frank Lloyd Wright quote that kind of sums up the culture and mentality here. He said, "'Tip the world over on its side and everything loose will land in Los Angeles.'"

And I like that quote because the word loose could mean any number of things. Someone could be loose because they feel disconnected from where they're from. They're seeking something bigger or better or just different when they come to L.A. Loose could mean willing to give up anything in pursuit of fame. Loose could mean lost or loose could mean free, liberated, liberated.

open to new experiences, open to the possibility of larger than life opportunity. I'm really, really excited for you to hear my interview with my guest host today because she knows the cult of Hollywood in her bones.

I was so honored that she was open to joining me today. Get ready to feel charmed as fuck. By the end of this episode, you're going to be in her cult. My special guest host today is the iconic comedian Maria Bamford, who published a memoir last year, appropriately called Sure I'll Join Your Cult, in which she has a whole section where she writes about the cult itself.

of fame and the effect of the entertainment industry on her and her mental health and her view of the world. But before we get into the interview, I want to talk about some of the history of the cult of Hollywood and how that connects to the cult that it's become because it really is absolutely fascinating.

There's an amazing book that talks about some of this subject matter called Fantasyland by Kurt Anderson. And in that book, the author writes about how the history of the gold rush actually directly connects to the origin story of Hollywood.

They were either gold-crazed adventurers seeking riches or fringy cult followers seeking transcendence. I learned in a really fascinating piece titled How California's Gold Rush Forged the Path for Today's Tech Innovators by David Wagner.

How the gold rush really set the scene for Hollywood types approach to success and failure. Wagner explained those early California miners looked at success and failure differently than society had before. One prospector reached into a stream and pulled out a precious gold nugget. Another reached into the same stream and pulled out a worthless rock.

The one who failed to get rich saw the other's success as little more than luck. That attitude toward risk is probably more distinctive in California than just about anywhere else in the United States. I've found that observation of Wagner's to be absolutely true. There's so much talk in Hollywood about being in the right place at the right time, having the

perfect set of qualities matched up to the perfect audition or the perfect networking event. Some people who are super talented show up to the stream of that networking event and get out of it with nothing but a pebble. And then others just so happen to lock eyes with the right person and come out with a gold nugget in the form of a TV pilot.

But the gold rush is actually more directly connected to the entertainment industry putting down its roots in L.A. Another great piece titled Long Before Hollywood, The Gold Rush Drew Starlets to California went on to explain that there came a demand for entertainment in those prospecting towns where people were looking for gold. I think a lot of us have probably seen those old Hollywood movies of like crude ragtag traveling bands.

and fiddle players and prize fighters and gamblers who would gather in saloons or brothels and dance halls. But over time, as people gained more wealth, their standards for entertainment got more bougie. They didn't want to just like hang out in brothels all day anymore.

So then we saw the emergence of theaters and palladiums and jewel-sized playhouses, and California started to become known for these things. So by the late 19th and early 20th centuries, talent from all over the world flooded into Southern California.

Fast forwarding in history a little bit, Anderson's book Fantasyland talks about how once movies became more prevalent in the early 1900s, fantasy itself became more prevalent. Fictions were being invited into the lives of more and more and more people. So there was an explosion in advertising and modern celebrity culture.

In less than 100 years, we would have our first celebrity president in the form of Ronald Reagan. The cult of celebrity really does have a hold on all of us, the entire country. That writer Wagner argued, now this gold rush mentality runs through California's history and helped establish an entertainment industry in Hollywood that today contributes $90 billion in annual economic output to Los Angeles County.

That stat is according to a 2017 Otis report on the creative economy. It's undoubtedly much more now. So already we're talking about riches, fame, transcendence, stardom, delusion. It's the perfect recipe for a cult. And I really have in my 10 years here, just even brushing up against the outskirts of Hollywood scene. This cult,

have a really corrupting effect on people who come here with a dream that's innocent enough, although maybe a little bit out of touch with reality, get a whiff of the cult of celebrity by attending a party where a movie star was in attendance or even just having a video on YouTube that they made collaborating with other people that they met here in LA go viral. Once you get that taste

taste of what Hollywood has to offer. It can really take over your identity, your morality. It's so interesting how like so many followers of the cult of Hollywood, you know, these people who are aspiring to succeed in entertainment actually low-key want to rise up and become leaders themselves, you know, like develop a cult following of their own. That's not

true in every cult-like corner of society. But I think in Hollywood, that gold rush rooted sense of competition just sets everyone up to want to start their own little cult. But let's talk more specifically about some of the cultish aspects of Hollywood. In an interview with The Guardian, John Cusack summed it up pretty well in this funny quote. He said, LA seems to be a place where a guy can say he's a life coach, channeler, masseur. It just seems to be ripe with all these frontier crazies.

People are looking to turn their pain into beautiful art, but they also want to be famous. And there's so much money. So, of course, all the predators come in. It's true. There are like these beautiful aspects of it. We just want to make something that will bring other people joy and meaning. Everybody has a dream here. And I'm not saying that everybody has a dream.

I love that. But at the same time, in my view, nothing makes you more vulnerable to cultish influence than that sense of optimism. And there is so much fucking optimism here. I mean, if you live in a place where nobody will indulge you when you tell them like, oh, yeah, I'm a model DJ, even though you have like no experience or nothing to actually support that you're a model DJ. Yeah.

Then eventually you'll be like, "Okay, never mind. I'm going to ground myself back to earth." Or you'll move to LA where everybody is like that and everybody will indulge you. That disconnectedness from reality can cause people to behave in some truly upsetting ways. It can cause them to give up their entire identity.

I learned in an article from The Guardian titled Moguls and Starlets, 100 Years of Hollywood's Corrosive Systemic Sexism by Pamela Hutchinson that, quote, Here are some examples.

Have you heard the name Margarita Cancino? Probably not. Have you heard the name Rita Hayworth? That's the same person. Margarita became Rita Hayworth after she dyed her hair and went through a procedure to fix her hairline. Same with Joan Crawford. That's not her real name. Her real name was Lucille LeSueur, but an MGM publicist told her to change it after telling her that her name reminded him of a sewer.

All it takes is a Hollywood exec to bless you with their attention for you to be like, yeah, I'll be whoever you want me to be. Is that not cult behavior?

This Guardian piece went on to say, quote,

Even if you are like a super, super, superstar in Hollywood, you're like barely human to so many of the people whose success rides on you. You are a commodity. And that's true to both executives and your fans. I've, you know, communed with a celebrity or two after all these years in Hollywood. And let me tell you, I

I've not met a single one who isn't anxious about their level of fame, like it could go away tomorrow. They put so much effort in every single day to maintain it, to make sure that they're beautiful enough, relevant enough, towing the company line, so to speak.

And what I find to be frustrating and culty about that is that while celebrities are the subject of both public veneration and hatred, hyper exposed to all these brutal fan dynamics and the rest, the executives pulling the strings just get to be rich, powerful, and if they want to be, largely invisible.

Hollywood executives have been known to be, oh God, verbally abusive, imply that performers would be nothing without them. And I think where it becomes truly a cult leader situation is when they can get away with all of this under the guise of being this sort of behind the scenes genius mastermind who is mistreating you because they're all knowing and they know what's best for you and you are special. That's why you get to be abused.

Personally, executives drive me nuts. So often they have these God complexes and they're not based on genuine creativity or vision, but just the fact that, you know, they got promoted to the role of agent or exec. They are often profoundly disliked.

unoriginal human beings like Keith Raniere stealing his whole idea for NXIVM from L. Ron Hubbard. Actually, part of me thinks that Hollywood power abusers are in a way jealous of the entertainers that they have power over because no matter how rich and powerful you are, there is still nothing like the allure of talent and celebrity. That stuff is

so easy to fall for, I've fallen for it. There are so many, many cults in Hollywood surrounding charismatic actors or directors who've ascended the hierarchy and now sort of surround themselves with all of these cult follower-esque groupies. Some celebrities have reputations for surrounding themselves with cult follower types, for sure. I don't know if I should name names. Anyways, more

More to the point, I mentioned L. Ron Hubbard a moment ago. Speaking of Scientology, as another cultish element here, we can't not mention the overlap between Hollywood and Scientology. NPR's Kim Masters has pointed out that, quote, the Church of Scientology has attracted a lot of Hollywood people who are always looking for a way to have an edge and to conquer their insecurities and to clear whatever problems might be impeding them in their career. I learned while researching

writing my book Cultish in which there's like a whole section on Scientology that Scientology like specifically preys on actors. That's why there are so many famous Scientologists like Tom Cruise is the most famous one, but also so many others that you would never guess because they don't make it super public like Elizabeth Moss,

Beck was once a Scientologist. One that I think is interesting is that the SNL cast member Chloe Fineman is suspected to be a second generation Scientologist. So like she was born into it, allegedly, allegedly, right?

Allegedly, allegedly.

Scientology has a whole celebrity center and they rank their famous members higher than others so that they might not have to follow certain rules that the plebes would have to follow. A piece from the publication In These Times titled Why So Many Celebrities Are Scientologists says, It's no wonder the film industry is loaded up with members of Scientology. Both are reputable.

profit-seeking corporate structures. Both revolve around celebrity worship, both love displays of rank and status, both foster rampant narcissism, both set up abusive hierarchies that run on paranoia, with underlings badly treated and badly paid but afraid to speak out about it, and both rely on an amalgam of neuroses, fantasies, and magical thinking. John Travolta's not the only successful actor-scientologist to be convinced that the process of going clear got him the roles he's auditioned for.

meaning his stardom is directly reliant on Scientology, the way some other superstitious actors might attribute success to a favorable moon. They're referencing astrology there, unquote. That quote mentioned how hierarchical Scientology is. And I think that Hollywood types are actually well positioned to buy into that structure because that's how the entertainment industry is.

Think about it. In Hollywood, there are even well-known labels for tiers of fame. A-listers, B-listers, C-listers, D-listers. Everyone's constantly trying to beg, borrow, steal, clout chase in order to level up no matter who's fucked over in the process. Meanwhile, the hierarchy actually goes on forever because who in Hollywood is ever truly satisfied with their level of success? You can't just...

chill. Then, of course, the irony there is that if you actually get to the highest level, that ablest level of success, when you're surrounded by all these admirers, that's actually profoundly lonely. It's this...

incredible con and ultimately why people end up in the 27 Club, you know, young, talented, miserable, dying a death of despair, like from a drug overdose or an eating disorder or some combination. We've heard these tragic culty stories over and over, but it's hard to think rationally when you've even stepped a toe in the door of Hollywood. Celebrity is one of the most

powerful cultish forces in modern society. I will tell you, living here for 10 years, I've had the opportunity to have a couple of Hollywood-y experiences. There's something about being in those spaces that just makes you forget yourself. You're like,

I am in a holy place. Like I have been blessed by this famous person, the things I would do to continue bathing in their light. And if you're not careful, you know, again, it can be very corrupting. You really have to take a step back, which the industry actually makes it really hard to do. Psychologically, it tries to convince you that it's the only thing that matters in the whole entire world. And that if you're not willing to sacrifice everything,

to succeed in Hollywood, then there is something wrong with you. The Hollywood dogma is that if you don't want to be in this in-group, then you're either pathetic or lying to yourself genuinely. Like that is the vibe. I once had an executive try to convince me to choose this Hollywood-y type project over something having to do with my book. I remember him saying something to me along the lines of,

That other book related project you want to do will never make you rich, which I could not believe what I was hearing. It was like something out of the mouth of a villain in a TV show about the entertainment industry. Fortunately, I was like, you know, nice try, buddy. No one gets into writing linguistics books because they care about being rich.

And that is the thing. I think one of the only ways to protect yourself from truly slipping and falling into an everyday kind of cold to take its power away is to honor when you sense some bullshit.

and not give your entire self to it, to always kind of have a toe or even a foot out the door. You know that a group is too culty for comfort when they don't let you have a whole entire foot out the door. But let's say you really can't take a step back. Let's say your professional success and your sense of self-worth is really wrapped up in your Hollywood connections.

That can lead to the worst case scenarios of the cult of Hollywood, one of which is, of course, the story of Harvey Weinstein, which led to the Me Too movement. The latest as of the time of this recording is that egregious villain sex abuser Harvey Weinstein's convictions were actually overturned recently because, as I understand it, and I'm no expert here, the court actually allowed too many of his victims to tell their story.

Make it make sense. As of the time of this recording, the latest that I'm aware of is that he will be retried. I'm sure there will be updates in the future, but good God, the patriarchy works overtime. The atrocities committed by Harvey Weinstein were disgusting and devastating, but he was certainly not the first, nor will he be the last.

A detail that some forget about the Harvey Weinstein case is that Rose McGowan, the actress who was a victim of Harvey Weinstein and one of the key, you know, very brave mouthpieces for that whole case and for his conviction. She was actually raised in like a real legitimate 70s era cult, the Children of God, which is sometimes known crudely as a sex cult.

And it's so sad and fucked up that she basically got out of that environment. But it was like out of the frying pan and into the fire because then she entered the cult of Hollywood, which again, at its worst, is just as bad. Rose McGowan said that L.A. is, and I quote, a town really built on sickness. Very early on, I looked at the power structure, the figureheads, the silence, the closed ranks. Nobody tells it operates like a cults.

I don't know if anyone here listens to the Trust Me podcast hosted by Lola and Megan. I did an appearance on that podcast once. It's great. It talks about cults and is hosted by two survivors who are also entertainers and live in Hollywood. I ran into Lola at my local coffee shop not long ago, shout out. And she also described this phenomenon, this overlap between the behavior of more, you know, quote unquote, classic cults like the Children of

God or the Manson family or the way international or something that and Hollywood, they said, there are so many ways that we justify to ourselves the pain that we've experienced in

in Hollywood and don't want to believe it and try to push it away. And I think that is something that happens within cultic groups all the time. One of the many dynamics is that you don't want to believe that people are bad. You just don't. It's hard. And you don't want to believe that you're a victim. At least I didn't want to believe that I was a victim. I'm like, no, I'm not the kind of person that this stuff happens to anymore. This doesn't happen to me. So therefore, this was fun. I had fun. That was fun. So...

This is me talking through just some of the cultish aspects of Hollywood. Obviously, I didn't even get into the details of the sort of catch-22 of joining guilds and unions and the exploitation that led to the writer strikes and actor strikes that we saw over last summer.

Overall, in Hollywood, there is just this incredible dehumanization that happens, whether you're uplifting a celebrity to the status of a god or downgrading them to the status of like a replaceable piece of trash. And yet the glitz and glamour is so alluring that I could sit here making a whole podcast about it.

about why Hollywood is so corrosive and sinister and yet you don't see me moving. Also because moving is expensive. But there really is something special about the cult of Hollywood that keeps me, if not in, then adjacent, next to, dipping a finger into the champagne every now and again.

But before things get too depressing, I want to welcome on Maria Bamford because she is so adorable. And even after all these years roughing it in Hollywood, she has such a chillness to her, such a self-awareness that I really appreciate and love.

was a great sort of like counter perspective to me. Maria grew up in Minnesota and had very much that sort of small town gal moves to the city of angels story. She came to Hollywood in her twenties,

♪♪

Oh my gosh. Maria, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. What a splendid time already. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us a little bit about your book? My name is Maria Bamford. I'm a comedian and I wrote a book and it just sort of

came about that I started getting the theme of, you know, you're in a group as a family, which is kind of a cult. Like your family always has like very strong philosophies that once I left the home was like, not everybody's adhering to these principles. And so then just kind of went along with different things because I always have liked to have a strong point of view, a

I love a dogma, a list of tasks that you must do, otherwise you're forsaken. I enjoy anything like that at first. And then, of course, I pick it apart and I stay, but resentfully.

Before we get into the rest of the episode, a quick word from our cult-followed sponsors, whom I truly love and who make the show possible. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I have got to tell you, I have never known a website platform more expensive

user-friendly. Squarespace is an all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs, artists, podcasters, writers, whoever you may be, if you want to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out, it's your first ever website, or you're managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content to services, all in one place, all on your terms. Squarespace is

so easy to use. Sounds like Occult.com is a Squarespace website, and it is so easy to update thanks to features like their Fluid Engine, which is a next-generation website design system from Squarespace. You can start with a best-in-class website template and customize every design detail with drag-and-drop technology for desktop

or mobile. You can also sell custom merch to create a passive income stream on your Squarespace website. You can even host video content and organize all of your videos in a little library. There's truly something for everybody. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com slash cold to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

This message is for all of my fellow cat lovers listening. I love my felines Claire and Teddy Roo so much. I do have one note, however, and that is it's not my favorite thing to clean their litter box. At least it wasn't until I became the proud owner of a litter robot. The unbelievable

high-tech, gorgeous, life-saving litter robot is the solution to all your litter box problems literally never scoop again with the litter robot. It is this like spaceship doodad that you keep in your home that self-cleans every time your cats do their business. It doesn't smell. It gives you these hilarious little updates that notify you from your phone when your cats do number one or number two. So my partner Casey and I literally get so

such a chuckle. Every time we're like, oh, Teddy Roo just went and took a little tinkle. We'll be like out at dinner all giddy about that. I don't know. I just have never had such a pleasant litter experience in my entire life. As a special offer to listeners of the show, go to stopscooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code SLAC to save an extra $50 on any litter robot bundle. That's an extra $50 off...

a robot bundle at stopscooping.com slash S-L-A-C and enter promo code S-L-A-C at checkout. stopscooping.com slash S-L-A-C and enter promo code S-L-A-C. You know what is a pet peeve of mine as someone who rents their home is all of the shade that people throw on renting. They call it a bad long-term deal. I actually think that renting is not such a bad idea, especially because of Built Rewards. Listen to this. Built is breaking ground as the

first rewards program that hooks you up with points on your rent. Even if you're still rocking the old school rent check vibes, Built Rewards has got your back. They'll mail the check for you. It's like having a personal rent paying assistant. Every month, pay your rent and watch the built points roll in. Use points to jet off on a dream vacation. Put your points toward a flight or hotel stay with 500 plus airlines and 700,000 plus hotels and properties. Use your points to sweat it out. Redeem your

points to book fitness studio classes. You can also use your points toward a future rent payment or toward a future down payment on a home. Pay rent hassle-free through the Built Rewards app. Your rent game just got a major upgrade. Built points have been consistently ranked the highest value point currency by the points guy and bank rate. I am not the most

technologically savvy human being, but the Build app is very easy to use. That's what I love about it. Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to joinbuilt.com slash cult. That's join, B-I-L-T dot com slash cult. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Joinbuilt.com slash cult to start earning points with your rent payments today.

Okay, so I want to talk more about your book because your book is divided into these three very clever sections, cult of family, cult of fame, cult of mental health care. I wish we could dive deep into all of these topics today, but instead we're just going to focus on the second one, the cult of fame. So when I say the cult of

Hollywood. What does that mean to you? I mean, it's kind of like what we're doing on a podcast. It's like assigning one person's voice over another. Like, why am I being interviewed? You know what I'm saying? Like, I love attention. There's a reason I got into show business is because it's very hot and cold sometimes.

Sometimes you're the best and you're amazing and you're a genius. That hot and cold dynamic has felt very comfortable to me. And now as I get older, I hope it's less interesting. I certainly think that idea of fame in whatever venue that you're going to reach this enlightenment. You are going to be beyond reproach.

completely lovable that never comes. As we all know, anyone who has an internet presence, there's always at least 300,000 people who are not on board. Or a billion people who don't care. So, yeah, it's this weird mythical promise that isn't real. Mm.

I love how you mentioned the billion people who don't care because that cycle of do you love me? Do you hate me? Do you love me? Do you hate me? Is all still attention. And that's so addictive. It's like the hot and cold thing. This is the cult of wellness in Los Angeles. But I sometimes do hot.

cold therapy in like a sauna cold plunge. And there's something like addictive about the pain and pleasure of that. And it kind of reminded me of what you were saying in a more abstract way. That's an element in Hollywood. So on this podcast, we discuss a

lot of cults where I don't understand the appeal at all, like Tony Robbins or Wall Street, these groups that are just simply not for me. But I think Hollywood is one where anyone can wrap their head around the allure of this group. How were you lured into the cult of Hollywood to begin with? What was that story? And what qualities in you do you think made Hollywood's magic work on you? It's exciting. You don't know what's going to happen.

But next, like, I don't know whether I'll get a job or lose a job today. Like, it's just...

You have no idea. And the fantasy element of it and the idea of being recognized felt like some sort of power. Like as a kid, I was very depressed and I was introverted. And so I think that I got elation from being on stage. I felt relief, like what you were saying, you know, relief from your brain when on stage. And so...

It's also a parasocial relationship with the audience. So it's not a real friendship, but it can feel very safe. It's not a real relationship where I can disappoint people or they can disappoint me. Right. Just being amplified. Like our conversation right now, like I'm very safe. I feel very comfortable in a podcasting situation. Any kind of thing where I'm being recorded, there's something about that that's very like, well, nothing bad will happen. Or if it does, it's

It's on record. There is some controlled environment element to it. That's fascinating. And I haven't thought of it this way before. But perhaps like always being perceived and always being recorded and always having your words and actions witnessed is maybe a bid at cheating death, which is a very cultish pursuit, right? Like this is sort of an attempt at immortality in a way. Yeah, which is ridiculous because I'm going to die. Yeah.

Okay, but like when you moved to Hollywood, what made you certain like, I don't want to just perform down at Lake Superior. I want to do the damn thing. I mean, I have bipolar too, so I was probably in a hypomanic state. At the time, I really believed in a god and I definitely did not believe in that at all.

But kind of felt like, oh, I'm supposed to go, you know, like I had a job and they said if I moved to L.A., I could work more. And it seemed like it was meant to be. And that was really hilarious in retrospect when I came to Los Angeles and I just really fell into a hole, you know, because I think the reality of life, I didn't know how to have a job. I didn't realize that, oh, it's a massive city area.

and people are going to be extremely skilled and/or confident who come here. I'm not necessarily going to get work at all. And yeah, I just had a number of things that I just didn't plan on. And I definitely had to learn how to better take care of myself. And that got me into different other groups. I got into Debtors Anonymous. Somebody told me because I couldn't pay my rent at all. I got mugged and robbed and my landlord accepted sex for rent. I just

didn't know where to go. My mom said, well, you should come home. And I was like, I don't want to come home. And so I started attending this group. It's a 12-step program for money. There's another one called Under-Earners Anonymous. People attend and all these programs are available online if you're ever interested. They're a little weird, pseudo-spiritual language, paternalistic counseling.

peer peers you know not not not for everybody but it did help me like kind of get some footing of like support around how to be willing to have a job to take care of myself which

Sadly, I am never willing to work. I'm always like, what? Like an object at rest? You know, I am within the myth of Sisyphus. I am the rock. I never want to do anything. You know, so, you know, I think that's a character flaw, sadly. And also I have a fear of not doing things right. So it really helped to have this

cult and whether that had been, I mean, had I gone to a church or had Scientology and I did actually go into Scientology. I took that crazy quiz. Me too. I took it too. The quiz really like, I was just like, this is nonsense. 1000%. Did you go further into it? Because I never did that. Okay. Yeah. I just, I went to the first thing and I was like, huh,

It also costs so much money. And that's a good thing about 12-step is that it's free. So that's one thing that makes it slightly safer. I want to...

say to myself. It is fascinating. I do not know a single entertainment professional who is not a member of some other arm of cultishness, whether it's 12-step programs or Scientology or some like woo-woo wellness circle, because it's the dreamer aspect. You move with a pie-in-the-sky dream, and then you show up, and it's not what you thought it would be, but you still don't want to give up because of sunk cost fallacy and the rest. And so that makes you perfectly

positioned to get swept up into another group that's going to promise to help you even more. That's the problem with any group is like, of course, some people, all the dreams will come true. Whatever the 1%, the half 1%, all the dreams will come true. And then the 75% will be like,

What the fuck? You know. I kind of want to talk about the power structure of Hollywood. Who are these quote unquote cult leaders? Like, is it studio executives, directors, actors? Who are the followers? How is power distributed in Hollywood? One thing I learned about people who are really famous, and Reese, for the first time I've ever met, who is really famous or really powerful, they really care about it. Like, they are...

are 24-7 into it. They're working their asses off to make that happen. It's not a fluke, but I might be the wrong person to ask because I'm not somebody who is ambitious. I'm not somebody who is knocking on the door of whatever it is going, hey, can I have this? Because I'm done. I don't, I really genuinely, financially, I could retire.

in the middle of the sentence and move to Utah. And why don't I? That's the question. Why don't I? At this point, why don't you move to Utah? I'm asking for a breath. Utah is kind of boring. I do love creating stuff. I do still love the attention value. I love the birdwatching aspect of show business where it's like, I got to see

I got to see Z-Way. I know, I like it too. You know, it's like, it's fun. And people who are at the top of their game and or at the top of their confidence level, like, I love an extremely confident show business person. It is delightful to watch. Me too. So I like that. And, you know, and I like creating. And I think...

L.A. is a very safe space to create stuff. New Yorker, uh...

Chicago is a bit tougher, so people will just go, you fucking suck, and you can't make people love, whatever. LA is like, you're amazing. You did a great job. No, you will never see those people again, probably, because they live in Maria del Rey. But it's very positive atmosphere. I really love that. And I just, I feel like, yeah, like people are happier when they're making something. And whether that means...

I'm I'm interested in other stuff like I'm hoping to become a part of the solution by being a suicide hotline answer. I did that for a year at Trevor Trevor Project. How was it? I think doing something like that is a great antidote to getting outside of yourself in a town that encourages you to be so self-focused.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So in your book, you call the entertainment business a money laundering scheme. And I was wondering if you could explain what you mean by that and how Hollywood is fiscally very culty and exploitative. I mean, that was about a particular experience. Like sometimes the award shows, they had this strange comedy award show. And I was like, never heard of this thing in my life. And it seemed like it was

funded by something. I don't know where it was, but there's all these famous comedians there. And I was like, what is going on? It was like in its second year. I was like, yeah, that's clearly some kind of money laundering because nobody's making any money off that. And I've worked at clubs where it seems like comedy is probably not what's going on. Yeah. Or they're not as concerned about the arts portion of it. Although,

I don't know if nightclubs are supposed to be about entertainment. You know, it's about like getting people to drink and, you know, it's a 7,000% upsell on chicken tenders. Like that's the real star of the show. When I did a show on Netflix, I tried to get more info on why it was that they didn't want to give me a 12-hour turnaround. Like what were the budgetary factors? Is it an equipment rental? Are we taking too many takes on each take? Like what is the deal? And I just couldn't seem to...

It's like, was such a massive machine and I was exhausted that I couldn't seem to get any answers about like, oh,

oh, well, it's this line item. The cameras cost a million dollars a day. And, you know, like it was very mystical. Right. Yeah. There's so much like smoke and mirrors going on in general with Hollywood. Like I think about speaking of award shows, how there are like secret campaigns for nominees that go on leading up to an award show to get so-and-so an award because you want to use them as a pawn in this other deal. And then

The audience only sees the movie magic outside version of that. And so, yeah, I find that there are just like a lot of secrets and it's hard to know who has the bird's eye view or the God's eye view. Who really knows what's going on? I think it's very much like a dysfunctional family where nobody knows what's going on and around.

Or what I try to do is work on an individual level saying, okay, well, when I pay people, they know what my costs are and why I'm paying the amount that I'm paying them so that they have room to negotiate if they want to negotiate for me. And comedians are very much non-union. So let's say you blow up on TikTok. You're selling out a stadium. You're getting $100,000 a show, but you have an opening act. Right.

Well, do you tell your opening act that you're making $100,000 a show or do you even have an opening act? Because usually openers, this is 35 years ago, they used to pay openers maybe $150 a show. It is still that much. It is still $150 a show. Wait, why? Because no one's demanding otherwise.

Yeah. Unless you speak up for yourself. That's what the clubs, that's what it seems like. At least my friends who I know open for people. You're lucky to open for somebody, whatever. Right. So I think the great thing about it is that you can individually empower yourself. You know, like you're never saying no without a number, you know, to go, I'm going to put this number out. I do have a lawyer. Instead of walking away from something going wrong.

Well, see if we can agree on a number. And then sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes it's OK if it doesn't work out. You kind of touched on this, but Hollywood is one of those extremely glamorous industries where you can exploit people for the opportunity or the exposure. And yet I didn't realize this until recently, but like truly everything is negotiable. And if an opportunity goes away, maybe it was meant to.

Like maybe that sounds woo woo, but like I believe that. And even if you're just happy for the rest of that day because you didn't have to take that job. And I don't think Collingwood is at all special in terms of jobs.

Like jobs, people, you have to negotiate. And there's all these weird guilt trips that people put you on, you know, whether you're an accountant, like, well, we're just, we're not doing well this year. Especially the lower you get paid in our country, the harder it is to get a raise or a living wage. It's absolutely disgusting, you know, that you're lucky to have a job, aren't you? You're part of a family. Like there's all these emotional plays that people do. Yes.

that are negotiating techniques.

Right. So I do notice that there's a sort of ends justify the means attitude in Hollywood, which we're kind of talking about now, that can coerce good people to behave sort of horribly. And in the book, I love that you say that good performers and storytellers are really just like crafty tricksters. And you compare show business to a drunk friend who's like sometimes fun and glamorous, but sometimes mean and crying and begging you for money.

And I was wondering if you could elaborate on how the cult of Hollywood basically coerces people into thinking that it's acceptable and in fact laudable to over-promise your capabilities or straight up lie all in pursuit of this big dream. I think it's the same thing that we all do in social relationships. You know, wanting people to like you, putting a false front on...

on is a natural human survival thing. But, you know, like any job, you also want to keep your job. I think, you know, when I've had health issues at work, that's felt scary. Like, oh, I am not going to be able to work anymore. I am not seen as a viable product. I have a bit of a tremor, which people like to point out to me. I love that. And

And, you know, not wanting to be seen as unmarketable or weak or ill. But I think that's every area of society. Right, right. It's in friendships. I mean, I don't know if you've ever had a friend in the hospital or they got really sick and you're like. So I guess I probably shouldn't call them for three months. I mean, I've done that. Like instead of going to see them and embracing them, I've gone. As a kind of, I don't know what to say. Bye.

And so, yeah, I don't think that's special to my opinion. But yeah, no, you're so right. It's just that maybe the audience for that deception in Hollywood is potentially like thousands, if not millions of people, whereas the audience in a more private career is like your boss, your co-workers. And so that may be like pour some gasoline on the fire.

What is, would you say, the cultiest experience you've ever had in Hollywood?

And these people shared these amazing stories of like, I was in a terrible place and I was sad and lonely and abused. And then now I'm filled with life and verve and look

Look at me in my plaid jacket. And then, you know, hundreds of other people got up and said, you know, I'm depressed. Help me out. Then they kind of broke up after two hours of this into, do you have 900 bucks? Do you have 900 bucks to go on this weekend in wherever it was, a Best Western somewhere, to talk about your potential? And as I had no money and I was already in debtors and I was like, I can't put it on a card and I can't borrow it from anybody because that's the whole thing.

I was already in a cult. Couldn't get into the LifeSprings cult. And again, they have that very attractive idea of like, oh, if you join us, you will achieve things. And I am really not a fan of Tony Robbins. Like, I just I feel like that's cruel. He's physically frightening. The fact that he's a white male and yelling at people at the top of their lungs, talking to them about their trauma, I just go...

Oh, no. Yeah, I don't know. Or charging people five grand for something like where people put themselves in debt. Some of my favorite, not my favorite. Not that he's asking me. I know he's perfectly fine. Actually, I was abroad recently. I was in France and I like overheard a conversation between these two girls and I like inserted myself into it. And I was like, how do you ladies meet? And they were French. They were like at a Tony Robbins conference. We love Tony

I was like, I cannot with this man's world domination. Okay, I want to play a game. This game is called culty quotes. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to read a list of quotes. These quotes were either said by a notorious cult leader from history or a Hollywood bigwig. And you're going to have to guess who said the quote, a cult leader or a Hollywood exec. Okay. The first quote is,

I think that's a Hollywood icon. It is. It's a Hollywood icon. It's Kevin Feige, the Marvel guy. Oh, okay. The head of Marvel. Okay, all right. There you go. Next quote. That sounds like someone who would be Hollywood. Yes.

That was indeed Harvey Weinstein. Next quote. The riskiest thing we can do is just maintain the status quo. I would say that's probably a political despot. It was Bob Iger, the head of Disney. Identifying as a disruptor, which cult leaders often do. OK. No sense makes sense.

I'm going to say dictator. It was Charlie Manson. Okay, great. I mean, not great, but I did it. Good job. Yeah. Also someone who desperately wanted to be in the cult of Hollywood. He wanted to be a famous singer. I've been talking about Charles Manson for so long now that I'm on a nickname basis with him. We call him Charlie now. Okay. Last quote. Without this flock, I would be worthless. Without the people in this flock, I'd be empty. Without the people who started this flock, I'd be dead. Okay.

Wow, that's intense. But it is tweetable. I'm going to say Hollywood. I'm so glad that was your guess because it was actually Marshall Applewhite, the leader of Heaven's Gate. Oh my gosh.

It just goes to show how charisma in Hollywood and charisma in a niche millenarian suicide cult atmosphere can sound similar when distilled to a neat and tidy aphorism. Maria, thank you so much for playing this game, for participating in this cult that is Sounds Like a Cult. And if folks want to keep up with your work, your totally balanced level of ambition, where can they find you?

Yeah, mariabanford.com. Google me, Maria plus comedian. That's where you'll find it. Incredible. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Oh, a pleasure. Thank you.

So, culties, I gotta be honest with you. I was so sort of nervous and starstruck, literally cult of Hollywood, so meta, while interviewing Maria that I full-blown forgot to ask her the final verdict. The, like, most important question on Sounds Like a Cult. If you are a new listener, at the end of each of our episodes, I pose the ultimate question to my guest host of the week, which is, if the cult of the week is a live your life...

a watcher back, or a get the fuck out level cult. I dropped the ball this week. I just, I plum forgot. So I'm just going to offer my opinion on which cult category Hollywood falls into. And I think it is a heavy, heavy, heavy watcher back.

I think at its core, there's something very beautiful and magical about the art of cinema, but the sort of, yeah, the fame, the fame stuff and the amount of money. Ah!

And the patriarchy and the power dynamics, it always ruins it, you know? Please, I need your help. Which cult category do you all think the Cult of Hollywood falls into? Please take to our Instagram, it sounds like a cult pod, and find our Cult of Hollywood little post on there and comment which you think it falls into. I need your help this week. Bye!

But that is our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. And in the meantime, stay cult. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of The Podcabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cole.

This episode was made with production help from Katie Epperson and Reese Oliver. Thank you as well to our partner, All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

I am so excited to tell you about this iPhone game that I am newly absolutely obsessed with. It's called June's Journey. If you're a true crime fan, but you don't like anything too violent, I feel like this game is totally going to be up your alley. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game that takes place in the 1920s. So the aesthetic is very colorful.

and vintagey. It centers on this protagonist named June who has to travel back to her family's luxurious island estate to solve the mystery of who murdered her sister. And you participate by finding hidden clues to help uncover the murder mystery. And I love that you also get to decorate the island estate as you go, which makes the game so fun and aesthetic and relaxing. I feel like I'm generally pretty bad at iPhone games.

games, but you truly cannot be bad at this one. I like to play it when I want to be on my phone, but I don't want to be on social media. I just want to relax and find something fun and distracting. It's great for that. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

The national sales event is on at your Toyota dealer, making now the perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new car, like a legendary Camry. That's the car I drove growing up and I couldn't have asked for a more reliable vehicle.

Built for performance and available with all-wheel drive, you can count on your new Camry to get anywhere you need to go. And with available features like heated seats, ooh la la, and a multimedia touchscreen, you can stay connected in comfort and style. Or check out an affordable and reliable Corolla with a trim for every lifestyle.

From the hip and agile sedan to the sporty hatchback, there's a dependable Corolla built just for you. Plus, both Camrys and Corollas are available in hybrid models. So no matter your style, you can drive efficiently and affordably. So visit your local Toyota dealer and check out amazing national sales event deals on Camrys, Corollas, and more when you visit buyatoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places.