The Cult of Burning Man
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The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The first time I ever learned what Burning Man was, I remember thinking it was culty because why can't we all just have a little teeny tiny bit of Burning Man all the time? Why can't we just have freedom and release?

A little bit. And like rituals to let go of stuff if you're going through a really hard time or like support from people to cuddle puddle you if you need that right now. Or like a safe space to burn your wedding dress if you're like, I need to let go of this shit. I wonder how many elements of Burning Man it was.

it would take if you were to bring element by element into the default world, how many elements until Burning Man itself is kind of a moot point? Like if you, what if we just had radical inclusion?

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina, and I'm a comedian touring all over the country and currently in New York City. I'm Amanda Montel, author of the forthcoming book, The Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on this show, we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cult in culture, from Elon Musk to academia, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? ♪

And if so, which cult category does it fall into? Live Your Life, Watch Your Back, or Get the Fuck Out? For our new listeners, a Live Your Life level cult is like a baby cult. Definitely fanatical, but mostly harmless. A Watch Your Back level cult is borderline dangerous, checks off some of the culty boxes, but isn't totally destructive. And then we have a Get the Fuck Out level cult, which is like QAnon level Manson vibes, aka run for your life. After all, what classifies a cult is up to interpretation.

So today we're finally talking about the almost too obviously culty for us to even talk about on the show, but very excited to cover it. Cult of Burden.

Burning Man. Yes, it is an event that's honestly hard to sum up in one sentence or less. What even is it? Is it a festival? Is it a city? Is it a piece of performance art? Is it a new religion? Is it an experimental alternative way of life? Or is it just a fun festival where a bunch of spiritually seeking people do a bunch of drugs to try and find a sense of cultural identity? Who...

but we're gonna chat about it 'cause that's what we do. - Isa, I know that you are generally a music festival gal, girly, girlina,

But tell the listeners your take on Burning Man. Have you been slash would you go hypothetically under what circumstances? I mean, I would go if someone like covered all my costs and I happened to be free and had nothing else to do, you know, maybe for the experience. But no, I've never been because personally, I love a music festival. I love one specifically where, you know, I can sing along to lyrics, give me SZA, give me Bad Bunny, even maybe

I don't know, Beyonce, Taylor Swift. Call me basic, but I love to sway and sing in a group of like-minded folks. Same, same. I mean, this is why there is that conflation between people worshiping Jesus and people worshiping music because at celebrity megachurches, they're so good at...

weaponizing pleasant harmonies and chord progressions. Remember kids, Justin Bieber does not have a direct line to God.

Would you like to go to Burning Man, Amanda? Oh, well, I was supposed to go in 2020, except the great and terrible Panini hit and prevented me from going. I actually have a friend who I first met because another mutual friend set us up on a little friend date due to the fact that she runs a cult-themed Burning Man camp.

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, I was so intrigued by that. I wanted to investigate it kind of like Gonzo style and write about it, but then I didn't get the chance to go. But she dresses everyone up in robes. There are custom tarot cards involved. There are mystery elixirs involved. It's very much like...

But let's back up and try our best to talk about what Burning Man even is. Okay.

So Burning Man is essentially a music and arts festival. The way they phrase it, it's focused on community, art, self-expression, and self-reliance. It takes place every year for nine days in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada. The festival is very different from others that are highly sponsored with branded partnerships. They have none of that because it's a commerce-free zone with an economy that runs off bartering and gifting. The only thing for sale at Burning Man is ice.

Isn't that nuts? I actually do respect that Burning Man is clearly trying very earnestly to subvert the sort of made up rules of everyday society. Like, what is money? What is worth money? But while most things at

Burning Man are quote unquote free, tickets to get there are certainly not. Let's maybe explain a rough summary of the costs here and how difficult these tickets are to get. Yeah. So the initial sale is in the more expensive bracket. It's called, funny enough, it's called the FOMO sale. So those initial tickets range from $1,500 to $2,750. And then later on, they have the OMG sale and it's scheduled for later in the year. And those tickets are around $575.

but I guess they're kind of harder to come around. I'm sure there's also a whole resale market. And all of those costs don't even include parking, camping, supplies, bike rental, travel, because it does take place in the middle of a desert. So prices to attend can actually range from $1,000 to even $10,000 or more depending on who you are and what you're bringing. The fact that

Burning Man is hosted on such a barren slab of desert, but is also so expensive and exclusive to attend, is just a culty juxtaposition that cannot be ignored. So let's dive into a bit of the backstory here. So Burning Man started in the mid-1980s in San Francisco, California. It was created by two dudes named Larry Harvey and Jerry James, who originally began with a group of friends.

just getting together in 1986 to burn, you know, very casually a wooden sculpture of a man on the beach. You know, we've all had those brunches where we're like, oh my god, we should do that. And none of us actually ever get around to it, but I guess Larry and David really did commit to the pit. But over the years, Burning Man essentially grew in size and ambition. In 1990, the event moved

to the remote Black Rock Desert where it has been held ever since. And it's become so popular that an estimated 80,000 people attended in 2022. Yeah. And the sheer size of the event is actually contributing to some of its hypocrisy because...

While it claims to be this, you know, environment-worshipping event with 80,000 people, the carbon emissions from 2022 were so extreme that a lot of environmentalists were actually protesting against Burning Man. So as the event sort of doubles back on its own very principles every year, it also gets cultier. Yeah, that's true. Burning Man was...

blatantly inspired by these sort of culty new age, new religious movements that cropped up throughout the 60s and 70s. And it almost feels silly to go and name all of the aspects of it that proverbially sound like a cult because it was basically designed that way. But...

For the purposes of this podcast, Issa, hit us with some highlights. So what are they doing at this adult summer camp for self-expression? Participants, who call themselves Burners, work together to build a temporary city that includes art installations, theme camps, an orgy dome. Ooh la la. They have a list of Burning Man 10 commandments. They're called the 10 principles. We...

We love those. Those principles include self-reliance, civic responsibility, a culture of radical inclusion, and the very well-known leave no trace. So they're trying to protect the environment where the festival is located. On the surface, I love that. I love the way that sounds.

But it's like an immediate yellow to orange to red flag kind of situation. Yeah, it's definitely sounding like a non-profit mission statement gone new age. But to me, nothing gives classic cult imagery more than the titular Burning Man ritual. Yeah, and I'm excited to talk about it. So for those unaware, the Burning Man event culminates with this burning literally with fire fire.

Of a massive wooden effigy known as the man. I look forward to the day when it's the woman. Burning woman? Okay, now we're talking. Yeah. Anyway, the man is supposed to symbolize impermanence. And they really do love their fire-based rituals because...

because there's another one called the Temple Burn where you symbolically set old memories ablaze to release them. But the man happens to be connected to the most dangerous Midsommar-esque cult tragedies to have ever happened at Burning Man, a.k.a. people literally burning to death inside of this man. Wow.

Indeed, there have been at least two instances, one in 1996 and another in 2017, where people died by running into the flaming man.

LOL. That didn't sound right. Anyway, yeah, I mean, that really just proves how an extreme sense of communal ritual can make someone do ridiculous, dangerous, and sometimes deadly things. Or maybe it proves that the drugs were a little too strong. But because we haven't been to Burning Man and there's only so much that gets out of those desert walls, we decided to have this chat with two very special guests who know a thing or two about spooky and seemingly supernatural events.

We're so excited to welcome Em and Christine from the podcast, And That's Why We Drink, to talk about the cult of Burning Man. While we are all admittedly Burning Man virgins and skeptics for various reasons, very different reasons though, it was really, really fun and illuminating to chat with these two. So stick around to find out if Burning Man is a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out.

Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. We are so excited to have you on. Just to start off, can you introduce yourself and your work for our listeners?

Oh, all our hard work, yes. So I'm Christine Schieffer, the true crime half of And That's Why We Drink podcast. And I'm Em Schultz, the paranormal half of the podcast And That's Why We Drink. And we've done some cults, but your show's more fun because you get to get in like the non-true crimey spaces of cult-like activities too. So I'm really amped for this episode.

We are famously bad at talking about violence for a cult podcast. Yeah. It's probably a good thing. Like, good personality trait to have. Thank you. I'm, like, sort of famously good at talking about true crime, and it's not really a great look all the time, you know? It's like, eh.

It's complex. I wish I had some other talents, but it's a red flag on a first date. That's for sure. So as true crime podcasters and seasoned violence discussers, what do you think are the aspects of Burning Man that make it both haunting but also

but also appealing, similar to a cult. I do think if you're comparing it to cults to see how cult-like it is, definitely the language being kind of an in-group thing, all of the rituals and the music and the principles, there's a group think and a bonding that nobody else would understand. And if you're being put in places with harsh elements and things like that,

I think that alone bonds people, you know? So I think it's a world within itself where if you haven't gone, you just don't know what it's like. Yeah. Because they even call, like outside of Burning Man, they call the rest of the world the default world. Yeah, there's so much terminology going on. Like the

default world versus the playa where all the burners follow the ten principles which are all phrased with like you know a certain sense of sanctimony to them there is totally that in group glossary that you know establishes a sense of cult like exclusivity and loyalty to an event that I think a lot of people perceive as sacred and like not to mention the isolation you know like you are physically away from quote unquote the default world

Yeah. And you also like are not supposed to use your phone. And so it's just like there's a huge buy in to like be a part of it. But I feel like that's also like the allure of like, oh, let's have some fun. Yeah. Let's have some fun. Let's unplug. I get it. I get it, too. Where do you guys stand? I guess is what I'd love to know.

As the experts. Well, I mean, in terms of the sort of us-them dynamics, whose foundation is really laid by the language, I hear a lot of...

with Heaven's Gate. I was literally thinking Heaven's Gate like the whole time. Yeah, I mean, aesthetically, there's a lot in common. There's something otherworldly in theme about the two experiences. Of course, the consequences of Heaven's Gate were much worse. There was, you know, death. They definitely left a trace, if you know what I mean. They left a trace. Oh, they left a trace.

That is a great fucking point. And they ruined Nike or New Balance for a year. I feel like Nike's still fine. Nike bounced back fine. Those black and white Nike Decades that all of those cult members took their own lives wearing, they are fully back. I see them everywhere. So, I don't know. 90s revival. It's the low-waisted jeans and it's the Nike Decades. 90s revival. Everyone's getting another shot.

Well, it's interesting because when I hear about the playa and the playa provides people love to use Spanish when they're like being alt. I'm like, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So appropriative and true. And the appropriation is another aspect of all of this, which is so classic new age. But you know, in Heaven's Gate, they would have terminology like that, too, where if you were in the mansion that they all shared, that was called in craft. And if you were out in the quote unquote, default world, you were out of craft.

And yeah, and there was an element of like, we're going to leave this plane because we're not part of the default. Like, yeah, I can totally see the parallels. So that kind of stuff is doing real religious work. But the prime difference that I see is that, you know, there is a way to have one foot out the door. But I think, you know, the Burning Man culture can go too far. And how far it can go is kind of what we want to explore now. Hmm.

I'm so intrigued. How far can it go? The way that I had it described to me too is like, there's no strangers. We're all friends. And like coming from the true crime angle, I'm like,

I don't trust everybody around me just because they're at the same venue. Like they were talking about a cuddle puddle and they have all these cuddle puddles, which I don't know if you guys know about that, but you know, you like all get together in a dark room and everyone's just like snuggling on each other. And I'm like, no, don't touch me. I don't know. I mean, I know you don't have to do that to be part of it, but I just was like, I think I'd be feel out of place. I think the sheer amount of surrender that is asked of you is overwhelming.

What's so magnetizing, but at the same time very scary because you have to put a lot of trust in strangers. And maybe that's the cuddle puddle concern for you. Yeah. And we talk a lot about this on the show, but I do feel like a lot of the communities that seek these kind of like altering experiences are like privileged communities. Like we talked about it when we did the Hammer family episode.

Armie Hammer was such a privileged man that he like low-key elevated to like cannibalism. Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. And it's like maybe people who go to Burning Man, it's like they've experienced all other kinds of vacations and so they have to detach themselves from...

to feel something else, to like try something new. That's exactly it. They needed to feel something. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And this speaks to a lot of myths that surround the type of person who joins a cult. We think they're desperate, they're on their last dollar. So vulnerable. So vulnerable. Yeah. But you

need a lot of privilege to join a cult or else why would the cult want you you need resources to stick around you need something to offer you need something to offer you need something to provide time off literally literally you need the money and the time I mean more than a Honda Civic 98 which is what I tried to drive out to I did not go to Coachella but I went that way and my car died halfway through so I'm like guess I couldn't have made it even if I wanted to yeah I mean and even Burning Man there's

The privilege alone of being able to just take a week off. I mean, so many people don't even have that. And it's almost like, it feels like, I hope this isn't too controversial, but it feels a little like cosplaying poverty in some way because you're spending $500 to go be in the dirt

And like surrender the daily necessities. And not have all of your things with you. Right, right, right. And how am I going to survive? And that's part of the bonding together of like trying to make it through. When it's like some people really do have to make it through. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's worth asking why the camping slash backpacking community is full of people with such privileges because they're like, you know, we're so far removed from not having a home that now not having a home is like an intriguing possibility.

pleasurable pastime. I mean, just to throw this completely out there, I went to Catholic school for 16 years and we had something called Shantytown where it was an activity where we would get boxes and decorate them and sleep outside for awareness of the unhoused, which at the time we were like, oh my God.

It's about learning what it's like to be homeless, you know? And it was, I mean, you know, we were kids. So like, I give myself a little grace in that, but looking back, it's like, what in the world were these teachers and like staff thinking? And like, we slept in boxes overnight and then we panhandled downtown outside the red stadium. And there were actually unhoused people there panhandling. And then a bunch of white kids in our school uniforms, like panhandling,

money please and like so we got some money oh my god cult of catholic school so taking their money literally taking it out of their hands as awareness right like it's so horrific to look back on right and i talk about it pretty openly like i'm my podcast with my brother because he did the same activity with me it was pitched as like oh we're just like generating awareness about poverty the

But then like basically someone's mom like brought us a bunch of pizzas and we just like watched movies. Let me guess. You ate the pizzas in front of the people who had that food. I know. I mean, we might as well have like that's how backwards and like out of touch and horrible

Yeah, I mean, that's like just the domestic version, essentially, of like when kids go abroad and they go to like South America or Africa and then they take pictures and like their parents pay $10,000 for them to get there. Voluntourism. And the whole pitch is like, oh, I'm bettering the world. Look at me. And it's like, oh, yeah, there's something very ick about that. So I definitely can sense that. You know what? And I also actually thinking about what scares me the most is.

and I think you kind of touched on it, is like the isolation. Like I think I have like such a big fear of being trapped somewhere. And I'm not saying like you necessarily be like physically trapped, but you know, I have heard that it's just like a real pain to get out of there. You're out in the middle of nowhere. It just to me feels a little scary to be like that isolated. Yeah. Well, and there's stratification because I'm sure you've heard about the billionaire's row where billionaires

very, very wealthy people from tech in Hollywood have started attending Burning Man and they'll go with resources that really seem antithetical to the nature of this event itself. They'll have big RVs and, you know. One guy brought a bidet. He's like, I brought a travel bidet. Oh, I respect that. I was like,

I did too. I was like, okay, now we're talking. But then he went on and he's like, I brought my pizza oven and my bidet and my air conditioned thing. And I'm like, isn't that just glamping? Well, I guess there's not a lot of water happening in Burning Man, but a water bottle works perfectly great as a bidet. Hot tip for any campers out there. Maybe that's what he meant. He's like,

That's what I meant. Moist towelette. Dasani. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moist towelette. But it's interesting because my friend who runs that cult theme encampment at Burning Man, she's not a rich person. She is, I think, really dedicated to that sort of like OG DIY ethos of Burning Man. And so she commits many weeks to...

to setting up her encampment and striking the encampment. And that's part of the bonding ritual too, like all that hardship. So there's a stratification between like the billionaires who like show up in a helicopter and stay all week in like a palace on wheels. And then people who are spending weeks and weeks doing this sort of backbreaking, but at the same time, voluntary labor.

right yeah like side by side to like kind of commune and the irony there too is that I feel like if the whole point of Burning Man is that it's the experience of all being out there together without everything at your disposal I feel like the people who essentially go glamping there don't even get something out of it they probably leave and go I don't really get what the fuss is but it's like well you weren't out there with everybody and that

Or I like to picture that they go back to Silicon Valley and they're like, I'm changed. Right. I'm a burning man. And I've actually become... I've raised myself to a new soul level. I don't know. But, okay. There is one thing I will say as a caveat to the glamping thing, which I did hear. I think it was a different podcast. I don't remember. But they were interviewing a guy who does Burning Man and actually met his wife there. And he's from New York. And so he literally planned for weeks or months to go and do this whole thing. And he said...

you know, 10 years ago when he would go, it was like the down and dirty. And he's like, now that I'm older and have a kid and I'm married and I'm like, I don't know, achy. He's like, now I go with an RV. And so I think you can probably do like a mix of that where if you've experienced the like down and dirty, you can probably go and still like appreciate. I wonder if like he's already earned it or something. Well, because it sounds like it's a very experience based

Yes. Thing. And so it's like if the billionaires row people don't actually like experience it, it's like saying you ran a marathon and like having biked the middle 15 miles. Yeah, you're being like wagging. You're like on someone's shoulders or something. But then when you cross the finish line, you get like all of the praise and like the excitement. But like you don't have that...

soreness, achy body that feels bad but feels so good because you like feel accomplished. You're so right. There is such a sort of supercilious cred that comes with being a burner, even if you didn't do it 100%. Like when I meet a burner and of course, you know, hashtag not all burners don't come for me. But sometimes they have this sort of like new agey elitism.

It's like ethereal. Yeah. Which like I resent, but it also does really seem alluring. And that's the pull of a cult, right? You're like, what the fuck is that? But what the fuck is that? That's exactly where I am. I'm like resentful toward it, but I'm like, what'd you do to get that?

that. I have a sick interest of like, I want to be you, but do I? And I think one of the main differences, because I was, I looked up like the checklist of what makes a cult. It doesn't have a leader. And in fact, I feel like Burning Man goes against having any leadership where everything is volunteer based. There's no hierarchy. Even apparently when they build out the city, there's no actual structure of like, oh, well, you're going to do this. You're going to do this. Everyone just kind of jumps in and somehow the city is formed. Yeah.

So I do notice that there's no leader. We've talked about this before. And like, there's a lot of cult like groups that we cover that you'd think they don't have a leader. Like, I feel like a perfect example is kind of like reality TV. You're like, yes, who is the leader in The Bachelor? I think it's The Bachelor.

but maybe it's the network. And like, those are almost sometimes like the cultiest group. I'll be honest, because it's the most insidious. And I think there's something to be said for a group that's like, we have no leaders because in human nature, like there just is going to eventually be hierarchy. And maybe it's only because

they're doing it for like two weeks or whatever, but I bet you over time if they tried to build out this thing, this infrastructure and really create like their own isolated, like I almost guarantee over time it would kind of start to stratify in like a hierarchy. I mean, even with billionaires row, right? Like they'd have the resources. And so part of me, part of me thinks like, yeah, I love that. I respect that. I love that everyone's equal and whatever. And as long as they can make that work, I'm like, good job. But whoever does, right.

Maybe the saving grace for them then is just that, like you said, because it's such a short time period, no one has the time to become a leader. Right. No, that's actually a really good point. That time limit, I actually think, is sort of a flag on the greener-ish end of the spectrum. And I'm also curious, Em, like which checklist of cult characteristics you found? Because there are a lot, you know, it's so subjective. I just Googled one and I assumed it was a BuzzFeed listicle. Right.

It was like science. It was like if you have a leader, if you have the language of in-group versus out-group, if there's any exploitation going on. Well, it's so funny because there are so many groups that look like a cult, smell like a cult, sound like a cult, but they don't check off every box on the list. And then you'll find like...

a celebrated Silicon Valley institution or a government body that literally does. So it's so thorny. Yeah. And you made a really good point of how insidious it can be. And we've talked about it before on our own show, but I absolutely think I'm a great candidate to end up in a cult by accident because like I really do talk about this a

lot I really just I don't know if it's because I'm particularly trusting or something but if you use words around me like camaraderie and freedom and acceptance as like your really good close friend and business partner I think I know why about you and it's something I love about you that you really thrive in like a group environment and you really like to be part of a group it's

beautiful it's very human it is and like in college M was in like every fraternity every sorority every like club like M just loves to be like involved in and be part of I love a society I'm just like I want to be in a society but then when it comes to like participating in group events I'm kind of like

I just said this one out. Oh my God. It's too funny. Everyone's so different. I wish I were more of a communalist. I feel like we have similar dynamics here. Like I'm definitely like a group person. Like I always say like I might trip and fall into a cult. That's the vibe. Yeah. Right. Maybe you guys will be in, Amanda and I'll have to swoop on in. If he's going to end up in a group, like just be a little worried. Um,

But I'm jealous, too. I'm still looking out for the cult for me. I'm ready. Because we have FOMO, so we're like, well, we kind of want to be... We want to be interested in a community thing. It's just hard for me to get out of bed and really...

So just like how you said you would like accidentally just like trip into a cult, I would do the exact same thing, especially with something, as we're saying, so insidious. It's not entirely a cult. So I feel like I would very quickly dig my heels in on that to like convince people I'm not an occult. And with words like radical inclusion and, you know, communal effort and self-expression. It's like all we want in life right nowadays. And my love language is gifts and the fact

that there's like a whole gifting situation going on is a big thing. - Me too. Dude, the love languages are a cult in and of themselves. - I know, I know. - Oh, for sure. - Yeah. - They have such disturbing roots. - I think my only saving grace about like tripping and falling into a cult is that I have a really small attention span. So like I will fully dive in and then I'll be like immediately distracted by something else.

I'm over it. Yeah. Cult jumping. Right. So the original love languages were created by somebody I'm not a super big fan of. But recently, a new set of love languages have come out that are directed towards neurodivergent people, which as someone with ADHD, I've really gravitated towards this. But it was also they were created by someone who's actually rooted in psychology.

Just for a fun fact, we're not even discussing this, but just to shout them out in case anyone needs them. The five neurodivergent love languages are info dumping, parallel play, support swapping, penguin pebbling, and please crush my soul back into my body. Please crush my soul. That's me. What is that? When you cuddle on top of someone? When you just lay on top of them? Oh, is that what that means?

means? I think it's like a heavy blanket, I think. Oh, yeah. Weighted blanket vibe. Yeah. Me too. I love to be laid upon. Me too. But I think this is an interesting discussion, too, because we're talking about something that I think poises people to want to join cults, which is like, we want to

the world and ourselves. And so we create these systems to classify each other and ourselves. We want to place ourselves somewhere. We want to place ourselves. We want. And that's not always bad. I think it can be a really useful tool. But some people like Keith Raniere or L. Ron Hubbard, when they get too confident that their system for classifying and helping people is the only way, that's kind of a red flag. Yeah.

100%. Kind of. Kind of a red flag. Yeah. Yeah.

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Do either of you know any Burners? I didn't know what your description would look like. Well, I have a cousin. He is a DJ in Miami and he goes every year and he is literally exactly like the person you would expect. Like rarely ever wears shoes, like travels the world, DJing all over the place, lives with his dog and like,

a very like chill, small apartment in Miami. But the other people I know that went to Burning Man, when I was living in New York for a hot minute, I was dog sitting because I was living on my sister's couch. And so like I would dog sit for like a week or two at a time on Rover and just

normally you like meet up with the people, meet up with the dog, go for a walk, like get to know each other before you stay in their home as this complete stranger. And these people hit me up last minute and they were like, hey, like, can you dog sit for like 10 days? We have to go out of town for like-

an emergency and I was like yeah and like I got to their apartment they gave me the keys they were like we left a list of what you have to do with the dog see you in 10 days literal complete strangers and then they came back and they were like we got like last minute invited to Burning Man so we just like

had to go. I know you really you drop everything because it's so difficult to get tickets. Is it? Oh, so difficult. I mean, I actually tried last year. And I mean, it's like getting a ticket to the Arras tour. You know, people are like selling their blood. I got one of those guys. Should I try my hand at a Burning Man? Oh, my God. And you said you don't join cults. No. OK, but here's the thing. As Em will attest, yesterday I was like, oh, I'm free on Friday. And then I went,

oh shit, no, my brother got me a ticket to that Taylor Swift concert. And Em's like, the Heiress Tour? That Taylor Swift concert? She said it as if she needed to get milk later from the store. She's like, oh, I've got that ticket to the Taylor. And then Em was like, you're pissing so many people off right now that you forgot 48 hours before that you were supposed to go. Oh, too funny. So I just know two burners. I went on dates with some burners out of intrigue. I don't know. I definitely rubbed. You're like such an anthropologist. I rubbed her neck at this hall. You went inside the hall.

Yeah. Well, they were two very different people. One was like a stunningly gorgeous, very elusive girl who like went by another name. And she like brought micro doses of Molly. She was so beautiful. I was like, I

well, I'll do whatever. You're like, I don't care. You're like, this could be a red flag, but we're going to see later. Yeah, no, I'm literally so hot. So I'm like, who cares? Yeah, no, it's true. And I do, I will say, I have to say, I do have a habit of joining cults of one, you know, where I get my, I really invest myself into like a one charismatic person. I can respect that. Yeah, so. Yeah, guilty. You know, she brought me,

micro doses of molly to this like weekday evening date and you know she's like she was cool loved her but then I also went on a date with a Beverly Hills acupuncturist by day newly minted burner by night and he was like 25 years older than me and had a really good dog and we went on a day-long date in Venice to a body painting workshop okay

Whoa. You have a lot of eyes. Watching my face. I am doing that emoji where all your teeth are showing. It is the cringe. It is the cringe. Meanwhile, I'm amazed. I'm like, tell me everything. Oh my God. It was, I had to really dissociate. It was not my vibe. No.

No. You don't say. So no second date? Actually, we did go on a second date. I knew it. I was like, I'm calling it. There was definitely a second date. You went to the AMC theater? No. Wait, no, but honestly, we went to the movies. I meant.

Oh, really? Oh, the best. I love a Cheesecake Factory AMC combo. That's literally what I live for. Yeah, I know. The juxtaposition with that person of the sort of like daytime presentation and then the kind of woo-woo problematic appropriative but like seemingly peace and love attitude of the nighttime burner mentality. It's just very, it's the duality slash hypocrisy. It's like whiplash. Yes, it's whiplash.

Yeah. I also feel like these kinds of people, like the way you are describing these people that you went on dates with, like it sounds like they're so relaxed and so chill. And it's like, I would love to see this person after they have lost their wallet, their flight was canceled. Like, you know, how chill are you in a bad situation? It's like, are you still embodying those principles? Are you human like the rest of us?

like what makes them crack you know when you're in the default world can you be that chill all the time or is it yeah the privilege of being chill that's so true and i wonder because there are a few stories i was reading up about people's experiences at burning man and they were having days long friendships with these people where all they did was talk about like existentialism and never even knew the person's name and then only later found out that they were like

a CEO and a university lecturer. And that sounds like a high stress job. So like, I'm wondering if it's a facade for a week or is that your true self that's finally getting to show? Or is that a great question? Okay. I love that point. And I want to bring it. So I just today listened to your Coachella episode because I was like, oh, well, this will be an interesting, like,

dichotomy I guess or like parallel but you guys talked about that a little bit where you said you know there are people who take that week and just like go all out as like their release from like the crazy day-to-day stress yeah yeah the catharsis of it so yeah and I wonder if it's like people who are working in places like Silicon Valley or like high stress jobs and then they come here to like

let it all vent about the universe and the meaninglessness of it all. You know, I don't know. Maybe it's a facade, but maybe they really are just like letting go for the week. It's probably a bit of both. Like identity creation is just one big experiment. So it's like it's hard to know what your most authentic self even is sometimes. I mean, I like recently went on like a short vacation and it reminded me of how like every time I go on vacation, you kind of need one week before

before you start unwinding, you know, like you need that. Oh yeah. It's not like a switch. Exactly. You can't just like turn the switch off. You like slowly start turning it off. And I feel like Burning Man is kind of like this result of capitalism and that it's only nine days long. And so people are like overnight turning the switch off and it's like this

extreme change so that they can truly disconnect. They become like an entirely different person. Whereas if capitalism just allowed us to take more time off, we could take three weeks off at a time so that we have that like one week of unwinding and then like a proper two week vacation. We could explore ourselves outside of work, you know? Yeah. I wonder how quickly things like

Burning Man would even crumble if the nine to five was eradicated. Like if there was even a three day weekend, that was the norm or if Henry Ford never existed. And like, if we weren't under high stress capitalism all the time, would people even need vacation? I know it's like, is Burning Man just actually one big smoke screen to keep the capitalist machine working? Cause it's like, well, you've Burning Man. So yeah.

Yeah. It's just like you clock out and like, it just feels like a reaction. I mean, it's just a giant reaction to capitalism by being so anti-capitalist. And so if one doesn't exist, then can the other. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. I actually remember the first time I ever like learned what Burning Man was, I remember thinking it was culty because why can't we all just have like a little teeny tiny bit of Burning Man all the time? Like why can't you just have freedom and release?

A little bit. And like rituals to let go of stuff if you're going through a really hard time or like support from people to cuddle puddle you if you need that right now. Or like a safe space to burn your wedding dress if you're like, I need to let go of this shit. I wonder how many elements of Burning Man it would take if you were to bring element by element into the default world. How many elements until Burning Man itself is kind of a moot point for you?

Like if you what if we just had radical inclusion? What if we just had civic responsibility? Yeah. What if just the world provided, you know, and then we apply it provided the world provided. Yeah. And at some point, if so many of those things got moved into our normal worlds, then like at what point is Burning Man not even fun to go to?

Yeah. And I think to your point earlier where you said like it's mostly a white community, I think it is an example of how like socialism has worked in like really small and homogeneous communities because they are all the same. They are more open with each other and more like willing to be inclusive. But I think

That's also why like America is so late stage capitalism because it is such a diverse country that it's like the complete opposite of socialism. And so like, I think we could try to like include elements of it into our day to day, but I think it would hit walls pretty quickly because we are like a very diverse culture and that's just unfortunate that that's like,

what would happen, you know? Well, and it's also true that like a lot of sort of Protestant white communities in the United States lack a fundamental cultural identity.

Sure. So I think maybe Burning Man can serve some of those people with sort of like constructed sense of deep rooted culture when they don't actually have one that they can connect to. That's a great point. Yeah, like a lot of minority communities are rooted in more culture, like are rooted in family. Like I'm an immigrant. A lot of immigrant communities are like rooted in like staying with your parents until you get married or like having your parents live with you when they're older and like things like that.

You have like the structure built into your group. You're in quote unquote in group. But like you're yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. And you have like an identity template in a way. It's like these are like the cherished recipes of my culture. These are the cherished clothing items of my culture. And if you don't have any of that precious ritual and symbolism and ceremony built into your life, and these are things that humans profoundly crave, you're going to look for them in sometimes really cultish communities like places.

Burning Man. I'm from an immigrant family too, but from Germany. And so like our cultural stuff is not quite celebrated. I think we can all probably read between the lines, but it's something that I'm not like proud of and I'm not like, yay. You know, I want to be part of the German groups and the...

White areas of my town. So I can understand that need to have an identity, like people who are on the same wavelength. Yeah, I mean, maybe that's where some of the appropriation comes from because certain wealthy Protestant individuals might see communities of color or Native communities engaging in these meaningful traditions and they're like, hey, that looks like fun. Let's go to the desert and pretend we're that. I want to try that.

But the wild thing to me is that they're like, oh, instead of including folks that are different from us into our everyday life, in our regular world, we have to go simulate their experience and not involve them. So cult-y. So fucking cult-y. That's cult-y. That made it a cult. Uh-oh. Yeah. We nailed it. Check. Check.

So now we're going to play a game, which we always do with our guests here. It sounds like a cult. This game is called What's Cultier? It's very simple. We're just going to name two Cult of Burning Man related scenarios. And you're going to have to objectively state what's cultier. This is the best day of my life. I love it. It's so smart. Oh, my gosh. OK, so I'll start off with this first question. OK, what's cultier, Burning Man or Coachella?

Burning Man. Burning Man. Agreed. What's cultier? The Orgy Dome. That's like the version of the Cuddle Puddle, but like on steroids. Triple X. The Orgy Dome or the Burning of the Man ritual? The Burning of the Man ritual. The Burning of the Man. We're sex positive. Oh, yeah. I love that. What's cultier? Billionaire's Row or the actual cult-themed camp? Billionaire's Row. Billionaire's Row.

I mean, I would agree. In the actual cult-themed camp, they do wear these long black robes, and thus it really gives itself away, but in a way the transparency is nice. I think that's what makes it less culty, is like, oh, we're calling it a cult. There's something very mindfucky about it. Yeah, totally. Okay, what's cultier? Dying by overdose at Burning Man or dying by running into the Burning Man itself? Both have happened. Running into the Burning Man. Burning Man. Burning Man.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. What a way to go. Yeah. Okay. What's cult here? The hypocrisy of the festival acting all conscious and sustainable, but actually having a massive carbon footprint or the hypocrisy of preaching the need for radical self-resilience while also preaching that the playa provides the first one.

First one. Hypocrisy of sustainability. Hypocrisy. Yeah. Yeah. I think both definitely, but I would lean toward the first one. I agree. I agree too. Cause it's like radical self-reliance. The playa provides, we have so many contradicting sort of pieces of conventional wisdom in this culture. You know? So it's like, that's just par for the course, I think. Yeah. It's like fake it till you make it, but be authentic. It's like we, you all,

You always have those like sort of counter legends. Be yourself but not really. Yeah. And I also agree that like the sustainability factor is like a little bit cold tier because it has like a wider effect on like our world at large. Like they are polluting the area and they're preaching the complete opposite. And it's like. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Did we win? You won. You won. Oh my gosh.

Well, thank you for even having us. Like, this has been a long time coming. So we're just stoked to have been here and get to chit chat with you. Yeah, this has been so much fun. Our distinct culty pleasure. I know I said this before we started the episode, but my mother-in-law is a huge fan. So she got me listening last year and I just freaking love it. Even though like some of the episodes, I'm like, oh,

because my kid's in Montessori and I was like listening to that episode dropping her off and I was like, okay. Yeah. Colty doesn't mean bad. Colty doesn't mean bad. Yeah. Exactly. But if folks want to keep up with your cult, where can they do that?

You can send a check payable to... No. We are basically anywhere on the internet, and that's whywedrink.com has all our info or tour dates. Or you can find us on any podcatcher that you listen to, and that's why we drink. And our socials are ATWWDpodcast. I'm VM Schultz, and Christina's Xteen Schieffer. Awesome. Well, thanks so much. Thanks, guys. Bye.

So do we think that Burning Man is a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out level cult? Uh, Issa, you go first. I personally think it's a watch your back. It's kind of like you are choosing to go to the desert. You are an adult. Yeah. If you're running into enemies,

A burning statue in the middle of a desert. What's to say you wouldn't have done that in the middle of a public park? You know what I mean? Yeah, I agree. I agree on the watcher back front. It might have been a live your life at the beginning, but isn't that the case for so many cults? Everyday cults and classic cults. I don't know. I think the...

The culty parts of it are obvious. We've been talking about them for the past hour. But I do think the fact that it is so voluntary and there is so little that's actually mandatory and the fact that it is only once a year are elements that keep it in the watch your back category despite how it looks on the outside. I still want to go. I still want to go. But it's definitely a watch your back in that...

You only do it once a year. So you put it on a pedestal. And that can also make you addicted in a way. The idea that like you feel like you can't leave because you might not be accepted back. Oh, I see. Okay. So it's like while there are not sort of like blatant, very scary exit costs like there would be for Scientology. It's kind of like a lot of the watcher backs that we cover on the show where it's like –

what do you lose if you don't come back? You might lose that sense of burner identity. Well, this has been such an interesting episode. It's not made me want to go to Burning Man less, but it's definitely made me want to participate more consciously. And with that, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty.

Sounds Like a Cult was created, hosted, and produced by Issa Medina and Amanda Montel. Our theme music is by Kasey Colt. To join our cult, follow us on Instagram at soundslikeacultpod. I'm on Instagram at amanda underscore montel. And feel free to check out my books, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. And I'm on Instagram at issamedina, I-S-A-A, M-E-D-I-M-A-A, where you can find tickets to my live stand-up comedy shows or tell me where to perform. And I'm on Instagram at

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