Botox & Filler: Right or Wrong?
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I don't think a 15 year old should be in a position where they're seeing content that's making them want to get Botox and fillers. That's where I think like that's very deeply unethical. But I'm like, what's right? The influencer or the celebrity being honest and transparent about the fact that they got Botox and fillers or not talking about it at all.

This is I'm Right, You're Wrong, a podcast about the everyday debates you have with your friends at brunch. I'm Issa Medina, and I'm a comedian. I'm Lydia Keating. I'm a writer and content creator. Every week, we debate a different topic. Right or wrong, dating in the friend group? Right or wrong, shit influencers post about politics? Right or wrong, nepo babies?

To try and answer the question all of us think about constantly. What does it mean to be a good person in your 20s? Or your 30s? Or your 40s? Or literally hundreds? Everyone is so young and cute and hot forever. So true. Every week, our producer randomly assigns each of us a side to debate. We prepare and come ready to argue with the most extreme take. Right. Or wrong. We only have three minutes each to argue our side. And then we get into a little discussion about our favorite word.

nuance. And yeah, how it's totally fine to agree to disagree. In this economy, it's actually the only thing we can afford to do. Today's topic, right or wrong, Botox and fillers. Okay, so before we get into today's topic, Botox and fillers, did you do something right or wrong this week?

Well, I think maybe I did do something wrong. So it actually happened this morning. And what it was is everyone's, you know, I am famously an influencer. Yes. Famously. Famously. And every once in a while I get an email from a brand who doesn't necessarily want to work together, but it's just kind of a complimentary email of them being like, I love your content and I work for this company and I would love to send you free product. Yeah.

- My dream? - Yeah. No, it's your dream until you start to realize there's just so much stuff in this world. - Yeah, it's too much stuff. - Too much stuff. But sometimes it is from a brand that like is kind of fun and I'm excited about. I'm just gonna name the brand. - Yeah. - I don't know, maybe I'll get canceled. - If you want. - Okay, so Warby Parker. - Oh, I'm wearing it. Why would you get canceled? Wait, did they do something wrong? - No, no, no, just like 'cause I'm about to shit on them. - Oh, okay. Well, it's fair game because I'm wearing them and you're gonna shit on them. - Yes, exactly. So it's like very even. - Yeah.

So I get an email from someone who works there, a very sweet email, very personal. She's like, love your content. Been following you for a long time. I work for Warby Parker. It comes from an email address that's like Warby Parker, like an at Warby Parker. And I would love to get you a free pair of glasses. And I was like, well, coincidentally, I live in Williamsburg where there's a store and I love to like try on sunglasses before I go. Like,

Is there a way I could actually try them on in store and get them? She's like, totally. Here's your code. It will get you a free pair of glasses. No price limit. And I was like, amazing. So this morning I get up. I have so much to do on my to-do list. But I'm like, you know what really needs to get done? Yeah. I need to go buy that free pair of glasses. Yeah. I mean, free is free. Free 99. Yeah. The code would never expire. But I needed to do it this morning. It was sunny. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's literally the excuse I made. I was like, I'm going to walk there and it'll be like my morning walk. So I go there. Of course, I like walk into the store like bright and early 10 a.m. I'm the first one there. You know how it's like awkward when you're the only person in the store. It's like open floor. Yeah. There's three employees. They're all just like watching me. Yeah. And eventually this one guy comes over and he starts really helping me. So it becomes an involved shopping experience. Like he is like,

And he's like having me try things on. He's like, yes, no. Like he's like, do this one, do that one again. Like he's like my friend in the store. I eventually land on a pair after truly 30 minutes of this kind of dance I'm doing. And we go to check out and lo and behold, the code does not work. And this is $175 pair of glasses. And I'm like, you know, I have a moment where I'm like, do I just send it and buy them? But I was like, no, no, no.

So I'm like, I'm so sorry. I'll email this girl. Also, like whenever I have a code that doesn't work, not that this happens that often, but I'm like, they think I'm lying. They think I'm making it up. You know what I mean? I'm like, they think I am a little thief. I don't think they think that. But like, I'm like, and I'm like, see you thinking that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, they think I'm scum. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm really sorry. And like, I'm embarrassed more than anything. I'm embarrassed. And my ego is bruised. I'm like, I'm going to email her and I'll come back.

So of course it's a Sunday. This woman is like, I wouldn't expect her to be online, but I send her an email. And remember that in her initial email to me, she was like, I'm a fan. Yeah. So I respond to that email. I'm like, Hey, blank. The code you gave me didn't work. Period. Oh, yeah.

And I, okay, this is where I'm like, am I right or wrong? Like, cause I, with the house kind of like sassy, the email was, but also it could, you could just be a woman and not use an exclamation. Exactly. You're allowed to not use exclamation mark. I know. And the email like that's that, but I did gasp when you read it.

But I was, I guess it's like not so much am I wrong for sending an email that didn't have an exclamation mark, but more like, am I wrong for even being peeved? Because I was thinking about it and I'm like, she was just trying to do a nice thing for me. And then it's like someone being like, I'm going to get you a gift. And then they didn't get you a gift. And then you're like, okay, I have an answer for you. Okay, tell me.

You're not wrong for feeling peeved. Okay. Because you're allowed to feel however you feel. You were annoyed. You like went out of your way to go get these glasses in the morning. But you are wrong for taking it out on her. But she was the one who gave me the code. But she made a mistake. Yeah. Okay. Can I clarify here? I did not verbally assault this woman. No, I know. I know. That's also what I was going to say is like, but you're not actually wrong in the big scheme of things because you didn't say,

hey bitch the code you didn't give me didn't fucking work whore you know it could have been worse it could have been you said hey the code didn't work period yeah period but that but that's like this is such a funny thing because it's like us as women like i bet like that's i don't actually i don't know this woman but like if someone had sent me that email i would have been like hey

Oh yeah. I would have been on Easter Sunday. Oh yeah. And get this. Yeah. She responded 20 minutes later. Oh,

She was like, were you just trying to problem solve with me? And she's like, were you trying to buy more than one pair of glasses? And I was like, no. Well, she said, were you trying to buy more than one pair of frames? And I was like, are frames different from glasses? She's like, no, it's the same thing. She's like trying to work through this with me. I'm like, girl. Then I started to feel bad. I'm like, it's Easter Sunday. You're emailing me from your work email. Yeah, get off your computer. It's cool. So yeah, you're not wrong, I don't think. Like your feelings are valid, but also...

That email was, but I like, I was so crazy for that. I'm like, you are crazy for that. And you like are allowed to be crazy sometimes. I know. Send an email without an exclamation mark. Yeah. We have to normalize it. Okay. Tell me about your week. Did you do anything right or wrong? Did I, uh, did I do anything right or wrong? No, but I almost like DM that guy that I've like been obsessed with and pining over for no reason, which would have been wrong. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. I'm glad you didn't. Cause he's lame. He's so lame. He's so short. And it's like, that is wrong. Yeah. Like for me to like reach out to a man who's not obsessed with me is wrong. That is wrong. Ethically and morally. I also feel like you cannot lose sight of how cool you are. Thank you so much. Like you are so cool. I feel so uncool. Like why?

Why? Sometimes and a lot of the time. I know. I don't know why. No, I know. I'm not, I'm not, I know that about you, but I know it. I think we all can fall into that, but yeah, you are so cool. Oh, thank you. And in a lame, boring guy who has like, I've just been going through these like motions of like, I feel like men, like, and it is the like classic bisexual dilemma because I'm like, I feel like men don't like like women with a personality. Totally. And I'm, I'm honestly getting to the point where I'm like, well, it,

If I do want to like attract a man, I'm like, should I tone down my personality or like, should I be more chill? I'm like, should I start smoking weed? Like I actually was thinking about that. Oh my God. No, you shouldn't change anything about you. And I have, okay. During like my brief periods of singlehood, I have had this thought because I've come across men where I'm like, how do I change myself to make them like me? The truth of the matter is,

not to get like all relationshipy advice but like if you are having those feelings at all they will never like you yeah you will never be able to like meet them at their like arbitrary standard of wherever it is but then the bisexual dilemma is that when I do have those feelings instead of just like being myself and letting guys like me for myself I literally just pivot and

And I go for women because I know they like me for myself. Mm. And, but then I'm confident with women and I'm not that same confidence with men. Wait, have you, you've never felt these feelings of like, should I tone myself down for a woman? I have, I actually have felt like, should I tone myself up for a woman in terms of like my queerness? Like, do I need to be more like, yeah, like chill in a different way, like chill in a gay way. Mm.

That must be really hard. I'm like thinking about it now that like there are two identities you could kind of lean into. Yeah. Like it's like the way I have a joke about it, but I'm like the way that you attract a man is so different than the way that you attract a woman. The joke is like with a woman, you have to like actively listen and you have to like touch her hand and like put her hair behind her ear. And with a man you have to be like, no, yeah, no, yeah. Yeah. I definitely came. Yeah.

But it's like a stupid, but it's like true. It's like dating both is so different. Yeah. So I'm just, I feel like it's like, I just need to like ground myself in who I am and not focus on the sexuality of the person that I'm going to date and just keep going. Wait, can I ask you, is there one identity where you feel like, or when you lean into like being more queer or lean away from that, if you're like trying to appeal to a man, um,

Does one feel more like yourself, like your true authentic self, whatever the fuck that is? No, it pivots all the time. I think that's just like queerness. Like some days I wake up being like, Ooh, I want to be like a little thought today. And like, we're like a tiny tank top and like,

low-cut jeans and like slay and then another day I'll wake up and also want to slay but in like a different way and be like oh I want to be like more like butch and grunge and like what it literally like depends how I feel that day but then that alternates the way that people treat me like you know everyone talks about like pretty privilege oh I mean you know it's topical and it's like I feel like I do sense the difference in how people treat me depending on like if I dress like

like really like makeup showing skin, like, you know, dress like a traditional hot girl. Or if I like literally I'm like wearing my glasses, no makeup. Like it's basic. Like if I dress more queer, like people kind of like ignore my existence more. And if I dress more like traditional femme, I get more attention. By people. Do you mean men or all people? Everyone. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's absolutely true when I've gone through periods where like I, this is not even being me being self-deprecating when I absolutely know I was objectively uglier. I feel like I moved about the world differently and the world's treated me differently. Yeah. And when I've gone through like exceptionally hot periods of life, whoa, what that was like, it's crazy. And like you feel it, it's so different, which does bring up to

us to the topic yeah it does i mean it's kind of interesting that we organically were talking about like beauty standards and pretty privileged because very much related it is very related to today's topic which is botox and fillers are botox and fillers right or wrong i think when it comes to botox and fillers it's it's truly the extreme of your body your choice mantra um

If you want to look different and tweak your face and body a bit, go for it. It's kind of similar to hitting the tanning bed. Do it if you want to. If you want to get a nose job, go ahead. Botox and fillers, do it if that's what you want. It's your body and you totally get to decide how you want to treat it. And if those changes make you feel more like yourself and boost your confidence, then why not?

Well, did you want to define some things before we get into it? Yeah, let's do a little bit of background. Okay. Because everybody, I feel like everybody knows what Botox and fillers are. But first and foremost, Botox like is the brand of fillers.

neuromodulators which are the things that like freeze the muscles in your face so that they don't move so that you don't get like wrinkles and things like that but there's other brands like diport and juveau and botox is just the most popular brand um but they all get lumped together and they get called botox and then fillers are it's kind of like this gel that they put into your face in the what is it the muscles i forgot what the word is it's a

It's a hyaluronic acid injectable that fills your face just so that it kind of like...

looks a little more full I don't know like yeah really pillowy pillowy or like if you feel like you have like really big bags under your eyes or like does it help with that I think so yeah it helps with bags under your eyes it helps yeah yeah and I thought it was just I mean I knew people got it in their like um lips and in their cheek like um I knew people got it in their chin

Yeah. I did not know it could treat under eye bags. Yeah. It treats like a lot of things that cause like, okay. So, you know, the way that I think about it is, you know, when like little kids,

Like their faces look so plump. Yeah. And like really just like little babies. They're like fresh and plumpy. Yeah. That's what like adults are trying to get back to. Yeah. By using those fillers is to like make their skin and face look more full so that they look younger. Yeah. So yeah. And those, so both Botox and fillers were kind of like developed in the 80s.

like 1970s, like really for other reasons, like in the 1970s, they used it to treat like uncontrolled eyelid twitching or involuntary facial twitching. And then it was approved by the FDA in 2002 as like a cosmetic. And now since 2002, over a hundred million vials have been sold. And the market is now in 2021, it's a $3.4 billion market.

for Botox alone, which is crazy. And that's like a little bit about Botox, which we know and we can talk a little bit more about, but like has become so much more popular since 2020 because everyone had so much time to focus on themselves and to focus on like their skincare routine during the pandemic. And then with the rise of TikTok, there was like all of that. And so I feel like we all became so much more obsessed, but what was the timeline of like fillers like?

Okay, so in 1990, collagen was derived from cows. Sorry. Okay, sorry. So before that, I'm crying. You're crying. I'm sorry. I just was trying to be so calm. It's all I wrote. It's all I wrote. That was my bad. You wrote this back. I copied and pasted.

Okay. So before the fillers were fully developed, before they became what they are today, they were deriving collagen from cows and inserting them in people's faces. Okay. Okay. So at the very beginning of fillers, it was actually collagen derived from cows. Whoa. Yeah. In the 1990s.

Crazy. Yeah. And then in 2003, fillers as we know them now were born when Restylane, I don't know if I'm saying that right, the first non-animal hyaluronic acid injectable got FDA approved. Okay. So that was in 2003. And then in 2011, a new...

FDA approved filler came out that didn't clump. Clumping would create like visible lumps on your face instead of being more diffused like we see currently when celebrities get fillers. Yeah.

So and then in 2015, Kylie Jenner famously owned up to getting lip fillers, which I mean, how could like. Yeah. But now what we're seeing a lot is like the effects of her getting it because it's almost been 10 years. And when you see pictures of her that don't have a filter on them that aren't edited, like it's starting to lump together.

I know. But sometimes I'm like, is that like tabloids also editing those photos to make her look really bad? I would love to see Kylie Jenner in real life. Yeah, I would too. Because I know they put filters on their interviews on the Kardashians TV show. So even when you think she's not wearing makeup, there's like a filter on her. Yeah, that's wild. I know you really truly cannot trust anything you see. And then in 2018, the number of hyaluronic acid fillers injected...

soared 85% since 2012. Wow. Which is kind of wild. Yeah. Okay. So that's kind of when we got to the present day culture, which is where we are now, which is like how they are almost an everyday product for most people. Like where you read online, it's like most, it's like it used to be this product that like only the rich and wealthy could use. And now it's like,

if you are a middle class and up American and you have a little bit of extra income, like you might go get fillers. Yeah. Yeah. And especially in 2020, that's when doctors started using it for more subtle results. Like it wasn't this extreme cosmetic procedure that it used to be. And that obviously increased its popularity even more because I think a lot of people are scared to get these things done. And if you're told, oh, it's like,

like gonna be barely noticeable change yeah and then that begs the question okay it's like fda approved it's become the norm but is it morally and ethically right or wrong and it it is such a fascinating question and i feel like whoever came up with that question is really smart so smart and naturally beautiful um that's what we're gonna debate today and we're gonna take complete opposite stances we are

I think Botox and fillers are wrong because I believe that it is our responsibility, perhaps even our moral imperative, to resist the suffocating beauty standards and societal expectations that we need to look a certain way. But when we do, we are wrong.

giving the beauty standards the power whereas if we choose to say no I'm not getting Botox and or filler we are not only liberating ourselves but also everyone else to to do the same

Okay. So our producer, as always, has randomly assigned us sides of this argument. Sides that might not align with what we really think. But I am going to argue that Botox and fillers are absolutely ethically right. Ooh, and I'm going to argue that they're absolutely ethically and morally wrong. Not good. Not good. And there's where you're wrong. Oh. Oh. Okay. Um...

In classic fashion, we need to time ourselves because we only get three minutes to make this argument. All right, Lydia, show me what you got. Three, two, one. Botox and fillers, often subject to polarizing opinions, can be argued to offer significant benefits to both the individual and society at large.

Whether we like it or not, appearance plays a crucial role in self-esteem and confidence. We all know this. We'd love to live in a world where this isn't true, but it is true. And unfortunately, the burden of this reality falls disproportionately on women. Women have for a long time been subject to unrealistic beauty standards.

And we think we're progressing in society and then boom, all of a sudden we're hit with low rise jeans coming back in style. These sort of things aren't going to change overnight. That is one thing that's very clear.

And boy, what a battle it is to fight beauty standards or really any social patriarchal pressure that is used to oppress women. If I literally spent all my time fighting the patriarchy, I wouldn't have a job. Okay, I wouldn't sleep. It would fully consume me.

Unfortunately, our subconscious mind internalizes these sort of beliefs as young as the age of four. I was a cognitive science major famously, and this is one study I really remember that we start internalizing sexism, other prejudices as young as the age of four.

So while the public battle is very hard, even the private battle with ourselves, untangling that internalized sexism and beauty standards, that is also a lifelong battle. And these battles, I will admit, are very important to fight. But it's also important to recognize that there's two different perspectives. The broader social perspective of what you're doing when you're getting Botox and fillers, and the individual perspective.

Countless psychological studies can show that when people feel more confident, they tend to be more outgoing, more assertive, engage in social interactions, leading to improved mental health and well-being and overall quality of life. If you're trying to tell someone that they can't get Botox and fillers, you're stopping them potentially from feeling confident in themselves, which in turn would make them go out into the world and not do all the things that they're capable of doing, could be doing. Okay? Okay.

So think about how actually that inherently is a sexist thing. When you're like women, you shouldn't get these things that will make you feel more confident. And that confidence could in fact lead them to becoming a CEO of a major conglomerate. And it's all because you're telling them their Botox and fillers are unethical. That is unethical. And it's kind of like someone being like, you should be vegan because it's better for the planet.

Meanwhile, the person's eating a yogurt and they're just trying to recover from an eating disorder. It's a very similar thing. You're telling them they can't get Botox. This person's just trying to help themselves in the small ways we can help ourselves so that they can go out there and they can conquer the world in more impactful social ways. Okay. Not the dramatic ring. Sorry, I should change it. You know, I always think that I'm just going to like slay with my argument. I know.

You always get to like, right when, I think it's like always the same moment. It's like a minute and 15 seconds. You have this moment where you're like, I'm like, I haven't even gotten to my point, but I also haven't gotten my backstory and I need to figure out a better way to do it. But it really is. Yeah. I need to figure out a better way. But, um, I think you had a really good argument, Lydia. Thank you. Honestly. Isa, get ready. Yes. Three, two, one. You're on. So, um,

You talked a lot about beauty standards and sexism and how women should feel beautiful. And we're just fighting every day to survive. I agree with that, which is why I want to start with why Botox and fillers are actually ethically and morally wrong. Because beauty is actually in the eye of the beholder. And we are always trained as the beholder to want more. There's a study that came out of Princeton University in New Jersey, by the way,

That we as humans are constantly running after rewards and we tend to compare ourselves with various standards when we become habituated.

What do they mean by habituated? They mean that we normalize that next thing that we got. And so, sure, you want some Botox, you want some fillers. When you get the first, you're going to love them. You're going to look so good. You're going to be like, I am fighting the patriarchy. I am winning. But then you're going to be habituated to those standards and you're going to want more and you're going to become essentially addicted, which can also be backed by other things like social media. Now, as a society, we are so used to

having access to a speedy reward system because of social media. We are instant gratification girlies. You know, we want something, we get it. Prime two day delivery, Instagram immediate. And so this is only going to feed our addictive nature even more to immediately be like, Oh, I see a fine line Botox. Oh, immediately I see a bag under my eyes filler. And so this is like literally backed by Stanford psychologist, Anna Lembke, who

who said, yeah, easy access and speedy reward system are two of the things that social media have made us addicted to. And the whole idea of like, kind of like drugs, Botox and fillers, needles. They're needles. Okay. Okay.

How much time do I have? Okay. Oh, fuck. We're low. Okay. Second point. Everything is a trend except your authentic self. Right? So we talked a little bit about Kylie Jenner in 2015. She came out and was honest with the fact that she got fillers. Amazing. I'm like, that's what you want to do? Do it. But the

But the same way that the Kardashians made having a BBL a trend, they then immediately went on Ozempic and now it's a trend to be anorexic again. Low-waisted jeans came back. And that is also a trend. So the same way that I think it's a trend to have Botox face, to have filler face, I actually think it's going to come back around and that's going to be out of trend. That's going to be out of style. And then everyone who got all those fillers and all those chemicals, which aren't inherent and natural to your body,

are gonna be stuck with those chemicals in their body for the rest of their life. Even though they are, they do go away, they do, the chemicals are in your system for the rest of your life. And lastly, I think the long-term effects aren't just physical, they are emotional. Gen Z has more direct access to documenting the evolution of their face than any other generation. So the big issue here isn't actually like beauty standards, it's the internet.

Okay. I didn't get to make that last little point correctly. Okay. I feel like whenever we do these, the three-minute debate, I don't get to like... I'm like, I could distill what I'm trying to say to you in 30 seconds. Yeah, me too. After I chat and talk and talk, I'm like, they're just wrong. Yeah. Just kidding. But how do you really feel about this topic? Okay. So I feel like... I hope this will make sense. But basically...

I don't feel that getting Botox and fillers is completely ethically wrong. I don't think that. I don't think that the act of getting Botox and fillers is like morally right either. What I do think is amoral is when people...

attack others for getting Botox and fillers. So I think the act of disagreeing with someone else getting Botox and fillers is what's wrong. Yeah. And that kind of gets to like, so my entire stance, this episode, no, I'm just kidding. No, no, it's not yours. Is it? No, no fake stance. Oh, what I just did for fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're like fun exercise. Yeah. Um,

Yeah, I just think it is a personal choice of an individual that doesn't need to be made...

political because so many of women's choices are politicized. So true. Actually, I didn't even think about it that way. Like it's like it kind of goes back to like the basics of like my body, my choice. Like you can do whatever you want to your body, even like something as simple as like a tattoo. Like why is everyone at the age of 18 allowed to literally alter their body for the rest of their life? And it's not political. Probably

with tattoos it's because men historically wanted them always yeah and so everyone's allowed to get a fucking tattoo yeah but like the second that you wanted me more yeah

No, but with Botox and fillers, I do feel like they are critiqued a lot more because they are like primarily a female thing. Yeah. You just made me think of how I kind of regret like 90% of my tattoos. Oh. That I all got within the past two years. But I also feel like you only regret them because you were allowed to get them. You wouldn't be able to even feel regret. Like I have one temporary tattoo that never went away actually. Oh my God.

Had it for three years now. It was supposed to last a year and I want more tattoos. Yeah. But every time I talk to people, they're like, oh, I regret it. I'm like, yeah, people say that. Yeah. Like people regret tattoos. But I also feel like you're not you're entitled to regretting them because you were allowed to get them to begin with. Yeah. Also, I do think this is like separate, but it is a practice of like.

I don't know, kind of like spiritualism with the self of being like, I was once that person who really wanted this tattoo on my arm.

And like, I love her. Like I'm going to love that past self. I'm different now. I don't know. It's like, I feel like it can be, it lead to helpful, like inner thought about yourself. And that's also why I think like that off, like just getting Botox and fillers inherently does not like, it's not right. It's not wrong. But I do think that there's a right and wrong way of going about it. And what I will say is that like any like big decision that,

Do treat it like maybe I do think that it's sorry. I'm like when I I'm going to say something that I think could be perceived as controversial. I start stuttering. Yeah. Let me explain. I do think that it's wrong how casual they have become.

come. Yeah. I don't think that it should be something taken so lightly. I think everyone should be totally entitled to getting Botox and fillers if they want to and if that's how they feel. But it is something that you need to sit down. It's a big decision that you're making. It's not only physical, like I mentioned in my argument, but it's like, I think it's a mental health decision. Yeah. And I think that's how it should be treated as like, oh, I want to get these Botox. I want to get these fillers right now. And I know that...

Whatever the outcome is, I need to pursue like self-love in other ways as well. Totally. It's kind of honestly, I think of it a little bit like antidepressants a little bit. Like I'm so for like medication if you need it. But I also think that in conjunction with medication, you should also be doing other things that like help your mental health. Yeah. Like going on walks or getting the right amount of sleep, hydrating. So it's like you should treat Botox and fillers regularly.

Kind of like that. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that kind of like the argument I ended up making, which like sometimes I sit down and I start writing my arguments. I'm like, I guess this is the direction I'm going. But like was basically like confidence and high self-esteem is so important. And it's like undeniable. We live in a visual world. People judge you on your appearance immediately. Like that's why fashion is even a thing. If we didn't care what people looked like, the fashion industry wouldn't exist. So.

So like, I feel like the term body neutrality is used a lot. Yeah. And I think that's a wonderful thing to aspire towards. And this might be controversial, but I just don't know if it will ever be achieved. Yeah. Like we, I guess we could try on a personal level to have body neutrality with the self. Which is kind of like the point that you made of like,

right now what kind of world are we living in right now like are you gonna sacrifice the way other people perceive you right now for the future of it right I do think everyone has a different role in society but it's like if you feel like you need to do something yeah yeah I get like frustrated with like people who are just like

I hate the system, the patriarchal capitalist system we live in. So I'm just going to opt out and I'm just going to like step out of it. And I'm not in it at all because I'm like, that's really not a pragmatic solution for yourself or for like the progression of things at large. And I know that's like a very broad statement, but to like bring it to Botox and fillers, it's like to just be like, well, beauty standards are ridiculous and sexist and patriarchal. So I'm just like kind of completely reject them altogether. Like,

I don't know how helpful that is for the individual if you want to like actually wield real power on society. Yeah. I think that's a really good point in terms of like the individual. Yeah. I don't know how powerful that is for the individual, but I do think for society, it's super powerful because every culture needs

risk takers to change the culture and so I think that like there are some people who are like I don't know who it was but someone went on the red carpet the other day with actually no makeup they did like a no oh it's Pamela Anderson yeah Pamela Anderson went on the red carpet with no makeup and I think people were like oh she doesn't look good or so people were like who cares and it's like she clearly is now at the point where she doesn't give a fuck and so that's awesome that she's

doing that and is pushing the conversation towards the direction of like diminishing beauty standards I've seen these photos of Pamela Anderson yeah and I do think like yes very brave very bold but like also again there's nuance here because she's still a very attractive older woman yeah she's traditionally beautiful she has been praised for her beauty her entire young life

I think I saw the pictures of her and I still like, I was like, she looks stunning. And I feel like not to be like the bro who's like, I love natural beauty, but I do tend to think like people look better without makeup. Yeah. And so I saw that and I was like, she looks great. Like what's the fuss about? Like, yeah. And like Alex, our producer was reminding us. It's like, there was this conversation around, um,

Because like Kylie Jenner is getting all this slack about like her Botox and fillers and having LA face the beauty standard is gonna switch to like people who can age and people who Do age it's gonna be more of like something beautiful But I think that's gonna take a while like we were talking like you were saying it's like there are individuals who can do that and there are individuals who can't do that and so

Yeah. For me, I think it goes back to like the internal self of like asking yourself the question is like, what can I deal? What, what can I deal with from society right now? What can I put up with in this fucking shitty patriarchal world that we live in today? And what, what battle can I fight? Exactly. Yeah. And if you want to fight the battle of beauty standards, go off kind of like me today. Yeah.

You know what? Next time I don't wear makeup, I'm just going to be like, I'm battling the standards today. Well, actually, it's funny you bring this up because I was, as I was getting dressed today, I was like, I always feel like Issa Slay is on our pods and I'm like...

a little bit frumpy, but also, well, I did want to say this when we were talking about like outfits. I about like a year and a half ago had like a conversation with myself where I was like, I feel my best when I am like unaware of my body existing in the room. And when do I feel like that? When I'm wearing baggy, loose fitting clothes, which can be like really fashionable and slight. Like there's so many cool, like very loose baggy outfits. Yeah.

But like, I just like don't really wear tight fitting clothes ever anymore. Like I just don't. Yeah. And it's because whenever I feel fabric like on my body, I'm like, it reminds me that my body's there. And when I'm talking to you and trying to have a good conversation with you, I don't want to be thinking about my body and readjusting my shirt or like being as like, oh, do I have a fat role there? And it's like kind of me just reckoning with like, I don't know if I'll ever fully be able to get those voices out of my head. Yeah. So here's a way I can learn to live with them.

I think it all goes back to like acceptance, which is like so much easier said than done of like,

Like to bring it back to like Botox and fillers, it's like kind of similarly to like the body. The face is the one thing that like shows aging. And I think like the big issue here is that we as a society are like so scared to age. Like people are literally scared of the one thing that you cannot control. I know it's wild. And I think it also has that like larger existential issue of like aging equals death. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so it's like we need to accept death.

we're all going to die and we're all going to get old and we're all going to have body rolls. And, but again, easier said than done. Yeah. I think like a really important part of this discussion that has to be brought up is 85% of the people getting Botox are women and 15% of them are men. I think like young women specifically are so, so vulnerable on the internet. And, um,

I think this has been studied again and again and again. There was this really interesting New York Times opinion piece that I read a couple months ago about the dissonance between like the actual lived experience of being a girl and the celebration of girlhood. Like we just had the summer of like Barbie mania and the heiress tour and like this kind of very commercialized celebration of girlhood when all psychological studies on young women show that

young women are more depressed, more anxious than they've ever been. And I don't know, maybe this is because like I exist on the internet and I'm very aware that I have young women who are following me and I feel like a desire to protect them in some way. But I do think they are the vulnerable people in this discussion where like I,

I don't think a 15 year old should be, be in a position where they're seeing content that's making them want to get Botox and fillers. That's where I think like, that's very deeply unethical, but I'm like, what's right. The influencer or the celebrity being honest and transparent about the fact that they got Botox and fillers or not talking about it at all.

So I think that's like a really good question of being like, what's right? How should an influencer do it depending on who they follow them? I think it goes back to my original answer of just being like, it's just not a light conversation. My thing is everyone just put a little bit more of a serious tone on it. You can still have fun. You can be like, get ready with me to go get Botox, which by the way are a serious kind of like

Not that casual. And a decision that I sat with. And I. Yeah. Decided to make. And then. Okay. Keep doing the makeup. And moving on to the content. But it's like. Of like. Just the casualness of the internet. Of like. Everyone making everything seem. So casual. And like. Not a decision. Yeah. That would kind of be my solution. But.

There's no right. I don't think there's like a right or wrong way. I think the casualness and like almost like the casualness that you're talking about on the Internet, especially with like TikTokers and influencers being like, get ready with me to get Botox or like, here are all the procedures I've done. Like, I feel like I've seen influencers be like, I'm not natural. Here's what I've gotten done. Yeah.

It's always done in this sort of like blasé way, which I actually think is very much a response to people being like, be transparent, like this demand for transparency. So in response to that, they're like, okay, here it is. And I guess it's true. Like, I don't know. I know. I mean, I guess I agree with you that like they do kind of owe a longer like to their impressionable audience, like maybe a longer spiel of like how they arrived to this choice. Yeah. But I remember...

like I feel like I've seen content creators get not just Botox and fillers but like full-on under the knife surgeries and been like he he like in their like literal like whatever gauze wraps well literally people like getting BBLs and like that's like one of the most dangerous surgeries in the world and then like the consequences of like not being able to like sit on your ass for like a couple

Yeah. No one talks about like those sides of it. They just talk about like how it was fun and casual and or they do talk about it and they make jokes, which like it's BBL is like inherently funny. Yeah. And we have to talk about we have to talk about how funny it is. But but yeah, I think it's like just like everyone be a little more.

yeah like transparency is leading to casual your thesis and I agree with yeah is that transparency is leading to casualness which is leading to like an increased everyone getting these procedures which aren't always casual yeah like were we better off when like celebrities were like faking and hiding when they were lying to us yeah because now 14 year olds need like Botox and that's sad or think they need Botox and

Okay. But I have gotten Botox as I've told you in the past and I've gotten it probably five times and in a very similar way to my, actually I'll start with this little anecdote. I have such distinct memories being in sixth grade and my mom driving me to school. I like literally have like a core memory. I know exactly what part of the road we were on. And she was like,

going like this to her eye and she's like wouldn't I look so much better if I did this and I was like and I remember my brother and I were in the car and we were like no mom never do anything to your face and my mom never has so cute yeah she's never done anything to her face

She's also a very wrinkly woman. Like she has not aged well. I mean, for other reasons. That's so interesting because I've never gotten Botox or fillers, but my mom has had a facelift, an eye lift. Has she really? She's never gotten Botox, but she's gotten plastic surgery. That's like dragging. Yeah. But my mom looks really good. She does. And she also doesn't look...

And that I did want to say this on this episode that I saw this really great tick talk about this girl basically being like people get these things to try to

to try and look younger but a lot of the times they don't end up looking younger they just look like othered yes they look like they belong to like a different it's la face yeah i call it it's neither young nor old it's just like a third kind of space that like personally i don't find very attractive but it is weird that like yeah that la face more and more people in these like

like elite kind of usually richer groups are starting to all look the same yeah and it's kind of like what i saw once it's all modeled off of emrata's face oh really yeah but it's like fake emrata but now that is like it's like is that what we think is beautiful and i don't think it is because if you look at like tv and film casted with like a casted like

cast i'm speaking sorry but um like zendaya doesn't look like she has an l.a face like she's also 12 yeah no she's like she's our age yeah shit she literally is our exact age damn that actually makes me feel better yeah it makes me feel good and bad yeah i was like looking at pictures of her the other day and i was like she's so beautiful she's so beautiful but she's naturally beautiful and she hasn't done anything to her face i'm like

fortunately or unfortunately like some people just are born with like a more symmetrical face or age better or age better and that's what like I think I mean not that I fully agree with the side that I was arguing with but that was my conclusion I was like people need to be accepting that like

of their own bodies of their own faces and like because at the end of the day like you said they end up looking like this third option which is the same option yeah which is if that's what you want to look like by the way some people want to look like that so it's like if that's what you want

go for it yeah that is a specific look that some people want to achieve like yeah i don't know that very much like that person obviously has fillers look whereas if i were to when i go and get botox i'm always like subtle as possible i don't want anyone to know yeah maybe i'm like the worst kind of person about it but like i always am like the natural look yeah um

But I do want to say that like personally on an, on my own personal ethical level, I do always have like a dilemma with the fact that I get Botox and I, I,

It's that constant dilemma of like you want to love yourself. But you also know that there are tools out there to help you stay looking young or look good or whatever. Like it's like I haven't gotten Botox, but I bought I bought like a Botox like amount. And I all I have to do is like go call. But I've had it. I've had that like what do you call it? Not subscription, but gift card.

Yeah, I essentially bought like a Botox voucher for a certain amount of Botox three years ago and I've just been scared to get it. Yeah.

Well, I will say, I don't know if you've had this experience when you see an older woman. In fact, I am thinking of a specific day, the like three weeks ago where this woman walked into blue bottle and she was an older woman in her sixties and she looked so naturally aged. Like she was wrinkly, but she was like funky and cool and had like a cool jacket on with like orange.

orange fur trim and like rounds like funky glasses but she looked old yeah but she also looked so fucking cool yeah and i i kind of had a pit in my stomach when i saw her because i'm like honestly i don't think i've gotten enough botox for it to like affect my aging long long term and i think if i like stopped now and never got any botox in my life again i would just like age pretty normally but i

I did go through a little brief moment this past summer where I was like, Oh, should I get fillers under my eyes or like fillers in my lips? And thank God I never did that because like, I want to look like a cool old woman. Yeah. And I don't, I think if you are getting a bunch of Botox and fillers, I do too, but not yet. You're opting out of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Sorry. No, but it's like goes back to, um, not yet. I want to look like 25 for 10 more years. In conclusion, I do want to say that if Botox and fillers make you feel like you can be more or any cosmetic procedure, make you feel like you can be more powerful and you will be more powerful in your life.

go forth unless you're a 14 year old person and you only think that way because someone you follow on the internet got it done then i think pause and think about it more but like what for you is the age limit like well i think 18 should be like the youngest anyone should ever pursue anything obviously because they're like then adult but um

I think like... I actually don't even think that just applies to tweens. Like I think like anyone who wants any procedure done... Like I got my boobs done. I'm very open and honest about that. And I wanted to get them done since I was a teenager. And I got them done when I was 24, 25. And I waited a really long time because by the time I like went to get them, there wasn't a doubt in my mind that I wanted them. And sometimes I'm like, damn, I wish I'd gotten them sooner. But other times I'm like...

damn, maybe I shouldn't have gotten them at all. So it's like, I think always just make it, if it's, you're going to put anything in your body, always just like sit down with that decision and journal a little bit. Yeah.

Journaling is so powerful. Journal, for sure, journal. Okay, well, that was our Botox and fillers episode. What do you guys think about Botox and fillers? Are they right? Are they wrong? Ethically and morally. Yeah, yeah, please. And have you had any horror stories? Yeah. That's one thing we didn't talk about, but like droop face and stuff like that. Like things can go wrong. Yeah. And if it's happened to you, you are in my thoughts and prayers for real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, actually. Okay, that's our episode. We'll be back next week with another right or wrong episode.

But like and subscribe, baby. Please do. Mwah. Mwah. I'm Right, You're Wrong podcast was created, hosted, and produced by Issa Medina and Lydia Keating. This episode was edited and produced by Alexandra Trigvedotir. Thank you.

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