Zach & Tori Roloff on Leaving ‘Little People, Big World’, Raising Kids with Dwarfism & Mixed-Height Marriage
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No one lives a life that can actually produce a reality TV episode every week. Is the show canceled? They haven't come out and said it, but like, we're not continuing. Did you think you would marry someone with dwarfism? On the show, I said I'm going to marry someone with dwarfism and I'm going to have a dwarf army. Really? I got the dwarf army. I did not marry...

I would not wish dwarfism on my kids. There is a lot of suffering. There's a lot of mental toughness that needs to happen. There's a lot of medical complications that come from it. No one would pick dwarfism over average height. Words have different meanings through different years. Little People of America started out

by M, people of America. No way. We sat down with Zach and Tori Roloff, who made headlines earlier this year for announcing their departure from Little People, Big World after 25 seasons. Now with three kids, they've been very open online about the pressures of reality TV, as well as what it's like to raise kids with dwarfism. We talk about everything from Zach's parents' very public divorce to why it's offensive to use the M word.

So what's funny is we actually, I'm pretty sure ran into you at Disneyland or Abby saw you guys. Are we stealing the story? Oh, you're Thunder, babe. Okay, I can't move. You got out of the, and I was like, stop, we didn't think

That's so funny. Okay. That's my story. You were sitting on a bench. We were right in front of Tower of Terror. It sounds so creepy. Okay. And I walked by and like I scroll reels like on Instagram, whatever, whatever. And you guys did dancing videos at the time. And I told Tori, I go, Tori, I could have, you were holding your child. Yes. I'm like, I could have sworn I've seen that girl on TV.

Reels or whatever. Yeah. Right? It was just you sitting there. Yes. You must have been on the ride or something. Yes. Tori was a little ahead. So you saw Tori too then? Yes. I did not see you guys. I'm pushing the cart. And then, yeah, then later on that night, I'm like, I need to, I saw her. I know it. And so scrolling reels, I'm like, Tori, these are the people, you know? And then two years later, like podcasts are popping up. And I'm like, no, Tori, yes, I've seen these people. And then you're sending us an invite. And I'm like,

you're like we already met yeah kind of so i totally remember that matt you went on a ride i think while i was like i had to nurse griffin because we didn't even have augie at that point and so i was like nursing him and i was like kind of stuck on the bench and i was like or it might have just finished or something like that and i was like wait a minute i recognize them so that's so funny i just remember abby telling me like matt some people from little people big world are here like i just saw them yeah and so were you guys there just for fun

With your family? I'm kind of a fan. Oh, yeah. I'm a little bit of a fan. Are you a Disney adult? I wouldn't call myself a Disney adult. I'm not, like, weird. But I do like going. That might have been our last trip with the whole family, though. No, that would have been... That was 2023. Oh, really? Yeah. It was literally last year. Last January. That trip...

Tori's gone with like Jax and her friends. I know. I do kind of like going with my girlfriends now. Our littlest one, it was a little much. So we're going to wait until they get a little older. Yeah, totally. But Tori's a huge Dizzy fan. Yeah. You don't like it as much? Yeah, I like it. He's married to it. He's married to it. I don't like a lot of crowds. I don't like, like I would go camping, you know, versus Dizzy.

you know i don't like a lot of crowds yeah the rides like that's cool but you know but tori loves it oh that's did you guys get stopped a lot while you were there like does that happen whenever you're out with your family people are like oh it's the people from the tv show fair amount yeah fair amount if we're waiting in line if we're like cruising everyone's cruising you know everyone's getting to their next fast pass or whatever like that yeah like not so much but like

Waiting for the parades or whatever. We'll get a fair amount of people. It's mostly with me. Can I tell the Patrick Mahomes story? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just went for... We were there the weekend of the Super Bowl. And the next day, the MVP...

goes to Disneyland. So Patrick Mahomes goes to Disneyland the next day and we're sitting there watching the parade and all of a sudden this woman comes up to me crying and she was like so excited to meet me and I'm literally like, honey, Patrick Mahomes is like right there. She was so stoked to like meet me and say hi. His wife is best friends with Taylor Swift. It's usually only when he, like people recognize him or family members. Tori's starting to get there though. I know, start.

People recognize her without me. Yeah, every once in a while. That's so funny. That's fun. Yeah, we're also, I mean, I know you said you're not technically a Disney adult, but I would say we kind of are in a way. We definitely are. Yeah, I mean, we just love the parks and taking our kids. Like when you see your kids go too, it just makes it really special.

Oh, totally. That's what it is. If the kids are loving it, the family's loving it, I love it. Yeah. I would not go like. He would not choose it on his own. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And three kids, like how is, how is life with three? Cause we have two and I feel like it can be, it can be a bit, bit hectic, but I'm curious how three feels being outnumbered. Yeah. It speeds up pretty fast. You are outnumbered. Yeah. You can feel it. And every kid is different. Um,

Our first kid, you know, we're like, oh, this is great. And then the second kid, okay, it's doable. Like she'll have the baby. I'll have Jackson or, you know, she'll have Lila. I'll have Jackson or vice versa. I'll take Lila. But then, yeah, three. Hardest with three right now. Like it's all great. But like Jackson's in one speed. You know, he wants to like go outside and ride bikes or like hike. Others can't do that yet. You know what I'm saying? Or like...

So you have three kids all at different play speeds. You know what I'm saying? Like one, like the baby is indoors crawling. Josiah's not crawling. He's walking now. But you get what I'm saying a little bit? You're at these different phases or nap times are different. Josh is not in nap anymore. Josiah's still taking two naps. You know, so that's like, that was crazy.

I thought that was the hard, one of the harder things is just, you have different, um, and they all have different needs. Jackson is still craving for that, like one-on-one that he remembers that one-on-one attention. So he's constantly trying to crave for that. Um, and then, but then Lila is, you know, kind of stuck in the middle. We kind of bounce her back and forth. Hey, go hang with Jackson or she's with Josiah. She goes in between of being like the baby to like the,

be with the older kids and then Josiah is just trying to figure it all out well Josiah has such bad FOMO you know he's only two and he cannot chill like if the kids are outside he needs to be outside if the kids are doing rides he needs and like sometimes you're like dude you're two you cannot do everything that everyone else is doing and that's hard that would be like yeah you got a lot of different needs and you want to fulfill all them but like you can't you know like

So like we're only two people. We only have four hands. Yeah. So what was, this is the infamous question, but what was the hardest transition? Zero to one, one to two, two to three. My world got rocked from one to two. Okay. Like from going from our, our oldest was also so easy. Like, and I say this, we talk about Lila all the time about being our difficult one and she's,

She's so chill now, but as a baby, she was hard. And going from our first being so easy, dream, no problems with anything...

to a baby who was very colicky and threw up a lot and, you know, just took a lot of time. Jackson wasn't super about it. Jackson did not like her. Yeah. He was like, send that thing back. It's not just her. I think it was, it was mom and dad's focus. You went from, you are the, you're, that's your boy. And now you're, Hey, Jackson, I'm sorry. Like, you need to play by yourself. We need to do this with the baby or whatever. And that concept, um,

I'm very big on, like, child psychology. In another world, I would have been a child psychologist. But, like, the selfishness of kids and the self-centeredness that they have. And then, you know, so, like, the world revolves around them. And then when they come to these moments of not, you know, but they're trying to still seek that out. How do I please, you know, how do I find that again? You know, so that was probably the toughest. Right.

You agree. Would you say going? Yeah, one to two for sure. Then three, you're just kind of in. Three was just like he was always here. Yeah. He just rolled in. When Jackson and Lila both loved Josiah as a baby, Jackson's response to Lila being born and then Josiah's was totally different. He was all about it. Yeah. And Lila's like such a little mother hen that she just stuck right into it. 100%. So.

One to two was rough, though. You made a pretty big announcement not too long ago that you were leaving the show Little People, Big World.

With being on reality TV for so long, I think Abby was like, Matt, the show's been going on for over 20 seasons. 25. Or 25. That's insane. That's crazy how many seasons have aired. I'm curious how, still on the topic of kids, how you talk to your children about TV and about, yeah, when you're at Disney and someone comes up and says hi to you, how do you talk to your kid about that?

It's our burden. I would say it's our... When a fan comes up, Jack, the kids don't really vibe with fans a lot. And I get it. And sometimes fans...

fans can be, fans are great, but there are fans in a reality TV setting. They, they think they know us. They think they know our kids, you know, and it is, um, it's the path we chose like to show them on the TV and we show them on social media, but then it's our burden in person to handle that. So most of the times, you know, if a fan walks up to us, it's,

you know, Jackson, you know, keep going or follow mom. And then I'll, that's our burden to handle that interaction. I would say it wasn't like the only, there was so many reasons why we left the show. It wasn't the only reason, but that was a big part of it was, you know, our kids all of a sudden were becoming more aware of people recognizing them or having to like come home from school and film. And, you know, that wasn't what they wanted to do. And so I felt like that was like a big reason for us stepping away, being like,

we want to give our kids more space. We want to give them a little bit more. It's a stressor too when you're like, I feel like reality TV is like a different industry than a lot of other industries. Like if someone works at Intel or Nike, like dad works at Nike, you know, mom's at home taking care of the kids. Great. And then,

Dad distributes, you know, pays for the family to do whatever. Yeah. Reality TV, it's a little different. It's not me. It's not just Tori. You don't have a show without the family. The kids are the employees also. You know what I'm saying? Like, it all relies... Like, we're all building the family wealth together. You know what I'm saying a little bit? It's a little less, you know, just dad is making the actual money. Like, the whole family is growing together. Yeah. The dad, the family supports, you know, or the mom, whatever. Yeah.

But reality television, there's like some, you know, production days that the kids aren't into it. You know, it's stressful for us because, you know, so those days got more and then it was time to kind of say like, hey. And again, there's a lot of other reasons, though. But like we're like, hey, this is a good point where we need to isolate this and become a little bit more mom and dad or the breadwinners. That's not the kids burden and that's not there. They already have so much.

other stressful things in their life like eating vegetables and going to bed on time so like you don't need to also add you know adult stress to them too isn't it so interesting though because like okay obviously for a very long time like I'm for thousands and thousands of years like kids have been a part of yeah

helping you know take care of the family farm or whatever they've been you know kids have always been involved in family businesses in one way or another obviously with child labor laws yeah in the past century like that's been really good to help protect kids and make sure that they're going to school with reality tv it's not just like they're

helping the family business but they're also like their private life is out as well and a kid that is you know helping take care of a family farm it's not like the whole country knows the inner details of their life I would say yeah there's yeah it's a very public job versus yeah like helping out picking weeds or planting seeds or whatever

Yeah, there's a different dynamic there. It's not business. Yes. It becomes personal. And there's a, you know, the kid's not feeling well that day, great. You know, someone else in the family will plant the wheat seeds that day. And you guys like live on a farm, right? So is that something that... We live on land.

Oh, you live on land. I wouldn't necessarily call it like farming. I think you have to have like cows and livestock and chickens. Yeah, we got like the, you know, the classic four chickens and two tomato plants and like a cute little garden, you know, like we spend 800 bucks on our little garden to get two strawberries. It's

Oh, yes. You're like, we're going to savor these struts. We are. We are. But like, you know, we're homesteaded. There's something about that, though. Like, I was just eating blackberries here in Nashville. And I was like, Abby, these blackberries taste like the blackberries my grandpa grew on his farm. Because when you grow stuff yourself, it has a different flavor and taste. So is that what do you guys grow on your farm? Is there? Oh, my gosh. We have snap peas right now. Like, literally this whole trip. I'm like, gosh, I could really just go for some snap peas right now.

We do the snap feed. We have four chickens, a couple strawberries, and a few blueberry plants. That's my phone. It's like a small. It's not like a farm. But the kids love it. We do it for the kids, too. They love going out there. Jackson picked out all the seeds with me, helped me plant the whole box. That's such a good learning experience. I am terrible. I have a black thumb, 100%. We're learning together how...

Yeah. Like to plant stuff. Taking care of like animals too. I feel like it's like chickens, like having the kids go out there, water, feed them, you know. Oh, but we're the worst though. Like we couldn't be a farm specifically just because we couldn't take care of livestock.

I feel like we have a dog and chickens and that's rough. It's the dream. That's rough. Live on a farm. You know, the things I want to do don't actually always pay. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I would just work on our property all day long. And he's good at it too. He's good at like keeping it up. That's awesome. But it doesn't, you know, that doesn't pay the bills. Do you think your decision to step away from the show, do you think that that

Was partially influenced by your experience growing up in reality TV? Yeah, I think things just kind of caught up a little bit. Family drama, family dynamics. Like it was all of our family. I had three siblings stepped away from the show at different times. And then my parents divorced. And like that storyline was like on me. My sometimes to like fans or whatever critics of the show will say like something about me. I'm like, hold on here.

I got three other siblings that are all saying the same thing, thinking the same. Just because I'm the only sibling on television does not mean I'm the only family member here that's saying these things. You know what I'm saying? A little bit upset about something. So that kind of caught up a little bit. And then it's just time to move on to, again, the family dynamics. As reality TV grows...

you know, reality TV is reality TV, but there's also context within that. You have the demand to make episodes every week. No one lives a life that can actually produce a reality TV episode every week. You know what I'm saying? Like that's not reality. You go on like a summer vacation one time a year. You know what I'm saying? Like reality TV, there's a constant, you know, so sometimes you also need time for life to naturally develop and,

And then, yeah, you mix that with the kids and then the family dynamics were kind of broken at the time. So and then, yeah, growing up, I'm like, hey, we're young enough that we could pivot, you know, versus like, you know, we're 50 or something. It would be harder to pivot. You can still do it. Lots of people do it. But hey, you know, it's time to let's see what other opportunities. Are we not seeing something because we're in this, you know,

not cushy job, but like, are we comfortable here? And are we not seeing other opportunities? So take away maybe a little bit of comfort, but a lot of stress also, but take away that comfort and let's see what other opportunities are out there. Well, and I always say too, and I feel like you don't always agree with me on this, but I always say that like the show used to be an educational show. It used to be like educating the world on dwarfism and what that meant and

And it kind of somewhere along the lines became a relationship show and it became about like family dynamics and relationships with others. And it was just kind of like,

I don't know. Reality TV developed too though. Totally. Totally. I feel like we were one of the kind of the first ones out there, but it's like, but I think even when we first started dating, it was like, it's exciting and it's fun, but it's still like kind of that interest of like, what does it mean to have dwarfism and date somebody of average height? And what does that look like? And then when they throw in the drama with it all, like Zach and I are the least dramatic people on the planet. Like truly we're like, we don't fight a ton. We don't do like these extravagant, crazy things, but,

And so there comes a time where it's like, this just isn't us. Like we're, we're trying to like make these and like, there was a lot of cool opportunities that came from the show and it's not something that we would ever regret. Like, like we met so many cool people, got to do so many cool things, but at the same time, like, would we have done those without the show? Probably not. Like we were just kind of more low key. I think it's harder to like when you, it's hard to say what you could have done or whatever. Yeah. But also with the comfortability growing up, like we weren't poor. Yeah.

like when the show came along and everything like that. So it is easier to also say like, I have some moral grounds here. I don't want to talk about this. I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to, we're not going to fight on camera, even if it is for,

Like even in front of like our, some of our best friends, like we, we don't fight in front of people. I guess I'm saying we acknowledge that it was easy for us to also say, no, we're not doing that versus someone that's like up and coming or someone that's like, they need the income. And like, they will do whatever it needs. They need to do. You know what I'm saying? Was there pressure to have conflict on camera? Oh yeah. Not direct, but like, yeah, like we understand the industry. We understand. Like they're not, I would always say like,

a production day has like 15 people

I don't know, the budget just for that. They're not here just to film us sitting on the couch. How much do you know? That's true. There's a demand here. It's understood. It's understood here. They're very... TV is like that, though. Any industry is like that, I feel like. There's a lot of things that are said or they can say, oh, we didn't say that. But it's like everyone knows what we're here for. I'm not criticizing the industry necessarily, but there is a context of like...

- Of course, it's a business. - How did that affect you too? 'Cause obviously drama does well for TV and so in the midst of your parents' divorce, how did that affect you with that being public? Did people come up to you and ask you questions or I'm just curious. - Or even having to do interviews about it during that time. - I avoided a lot of it. I was pretty staunch and kind of avoided elaborating too much.

Because it is, I feel for, you know, kids where parents get divorced at a young age, it is mom versus dad. You know, you had team mom and team dad, team Matt, team Amy, you know what I'm saying? Amongst the fans. That's honestly what you got more than anything was like fans would come up and just like take sides and you're like, whoa, this is awkward. Or they're like, I'm not going to go there. Yeah.

Which is implying I do not like your dad. Really? Your dad's so great. And it's implying that maybe they... You know what I'm saying? So no one said, what do you think, Zach? I wouldn't say no one. It probably happened. There's definitely some bold people out there. We did some... I was doing private tours at the farm at the time. And...

yeah those now that i think about it there was some conversations there that people like hey what do you think but no one like on the street was like zach oh my gosh you're from the little people hey what do you think about your mom and dad you know so yeah in private settings with fans those questions probably came out more so um but again it wasn't like there's the pressure of i was not the only sibling in this you know and then tori and me are like

you know, getting married and promising our life to each other at the same time, a very public divorce. And so it was, that part was like, just kind of, it was unfortunate. It is what it is, you know, but, um,

Yeah, just certain things like that eventually just kind of caught up, you know. And again, don't regret anything. A lot of doors were open for us and everything like that. And it was a cool experience. I feel like I understand how certain things work in like every day. The news, like behind the scenes of almost any camera work, you know, like there is an interesting... I'm always asking like, I wonder what actually happened there. How was that? What's the reality there? You know, so...

Both my grandparents, both sets of grandparents in my family actually got divorced. And so I know my parents, when they were going to get married, they were like kind of hesitant at first because they had both seen that and been through that. And you mentioning that you got married at the same time, did that make you hesitant at all for marriage seeing that play out? Thank you to Factor for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. The way I decide what I eat in the day, the priorities...

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Like I didn't even, I was never like into like the juice stuff. Like people are like, oh, I want to have juice with, you know, to like to, you know, be good and stuff. I've never really understood that. But then, wow, when I tried the wellness shots, they just taste. It feels like it's doing something. They taste good. I feel Shazam. Yeah, they have options like.

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Bye.

Tori was my first kiss. First girlfriend. First girlfriend. So I was pretty locked in. I'm his first girlfriend. Yeah. She's my first girlfriend. He's my boyfriend. Oh my god. That's so good. Okay. Sorry. I missed that. We started dating really young so that kind of...

that so so in that context like I was pretty locked in yeah like we've been dating for like five years oh my god eventually I'm like bro but dude

My brother got married the year before. And so like it was the season of life. Yeah. I think honestly, I think that if you guys stopped and thought about it, it did affect. I don't know. I would say like I feel like that conversation was there between your brother with your brother because they like they're they're doing all these like wedding things and really cool, you know, and I feel like that was probably kind of conflicting to have parents getting divorced and we're both stepping into marriage and

I feel like that would, like, if we would have stopped and thought about it, it might have been difficult, but I think that we were so, like, full speed ahead. We were excited. Yeah, long engagement. And, like, for me, like, yeah, it was just, this is what we're doing. Yeah. He bought a house and was, like, moving in with his buddies, and I'm, like, over here just, like...

come on dude our famous story is at some point of us dating for like three years i'm just enjoying it like i've never dated anyone so i'm like i could do this like let's you know it was chill you know anyway my dad calls me up and said hey zach there's a house for sale in the bethany area like you know you're in i was in an apartment at the time like i wasn't going to college i was like community college i was like hey do you want to like get in on this you know like

what else are you doing in a way? Or like, you know, you're not going to go to college. So maybe start buying real estate now, you know, get a house and see where that leads. Anyway. So I'm like, Oh sure. So anyway, we go check out the house.

Great. Love it. Done. Easy. Take it. Yeah. Well, it was your best neighborhood. And it was like at work too. I'm like at work. And that night I like get off work and he goes, Oh, so I put an offer in on a house today. I'm like, Oh, okay. Yeah. She was a little upset about that. Apparently we were supposed to be getting engaged and married. Like looking at the house together, you know? Oh, it wasn't how I, like me and my dad were like that though. Tori, like there's, it was carpeted. You know what I'm saying? It was this white carpet. Look,

Location, location, location. You know, it was, it was a good investment. And that springboarded us though. That house springboarded us into where we are now. So I can't say that about it. Yeah. It was all a good decision, but it was a, it was a little like the conversation, you know, what are we doing? That's all we want. Yeah.

we want did that so did that make you feel insecure when you're like when zach goes and buys this house and you're like i'm wanting to like am i part of these plans in person i was kind of like okay so this is it like we're done we're i'm gonna like move on last four years has been fun oh it was actually like that it was actually yeah yeah like yeah it was a conversation like what are we doing anywhere you know and i had no and i think that's finally he was like oh

Oh, that's the next step. That lit a fire in your butt. Why do you care? It wasn't something you were talking about yet. We were talking about marriage, for sure. We had been talking about the future and all that, but I think Zach would have dated me for the next 10 years. I did not equate that to this has nothing to do with our relationship. I don't have kids. I don't have family. What are we doing? No.

yeah that's so funny then i lived with my friends for like two years and then it was only like a year wasn't it no because we had brian and jake for a full year okay okay it was a year and a half yeah it was a year and a half it was it ended up being a lot of fun the dining room had like it was a classic dining room table in the middle of the dining room it was like 1980s everywhere probably kept i think we kept the wallpaper up somewhere on the bathroom oh yeah there was yeah all that floral wallpaper so yeah

So you guys met and started dating and it's being aired on reality TV. Yeah. You said earlier, you made an interesting point about how the show started off educational in your eyes. Mm-hmm.

And so I'm curious, like, what aspects the show got right in the area of, like, dating with different height, like, a different height dynamic? I think it just normalized it. You know, like, I think that it just didn't make it weird. Right? I argue this a lot. It's hard. Or I argue this a lot. Like, yeah, the show went away from maybe more of...

focusing on this educational point, but just us being on camera, I think with education, there's still a ton of power being on television. People like, if you're on television, you're,

you're respected, you're looked at in a different way. Yeah. Sometimes it doesn't even matter what you're saying. People still value that a lot. So people with dwarfism could say, I know someone on TV. There's still like a value there. And that's an educational piece. Like representation. Yes. Yes. So I always like, sometimes like, actually we talked about this on our podcast about the whole Snow White and the Snow White.

and the seven dwarves. I was listening to you guys talk about that. That was so interesting. Wait, I'm curious. I had huge feelings about this, okay? Elaborate, yeah. Well, it was a live action and they basically...

Which you guys are Disney fans. I'm sure you've heard the drama around. I know the drama. I haven't seen the movie. Has the movie even come out? I don't even know if they're doing it anymore. The movie didn't come out? No. It still hasn't come out. Wait, what? I'm so curious. I'm going to rant. Tori, check me, okay? Buckle up, guys. Snow White and the Seven Dwarves.

Okay, they scrapped the dwarfs in the story. They updated the queen, which, okay, great. A diversity actor. No, Snow White. Or Snow White, sorry. They updated Snow White to be an Hispanic actress. Great. Well, then Peter Dinklage, you know, Game of Thrones. Yeah. I love that dude. He's cool. But he had some opinions on this that scratched. He thought we shouldn't be telling the story.

Which is great. Then don't tell the story. But then he was like, oh, but I like how they updated the queen. Or Snow White. Snow White and Peter Dinklage. Who's this actor? Oh, Rachel. They played in a movie together. The Hunger Games. The Hunger Games. So there's some politics going on here. You know what I'm saying? So now they're remaking the movie. They just got rid of the dwarves. Okay. Okay, but what do they call them now? Why would they get rid of the dwarves though? Special. No. No.

Magical creatures. Magical creatures. But they have one token dwarf amongst these magical creatures. But that's also more offensive to the dwarf community than like calling dwarves. So we're looking at updating stories and everything. You actually just went backwards. You actually just erased the dwarfism side of it. The disability, like we're a disability group. You just erased that whole image of

So if you're going to update the queen, you can still make the movie. The argument should have been from Peter Dinklage, update the story. You don't have to talk about the seven dwarfs as miners in a cave or something like that. You know what I'm saying? Like a dwarf, a magical like creatures that are mining for diamonds. You know what I'm saying? You can update that side of things too.

Get the Disney writers on it. Get creative. It could have been like seven dudes that live in a town together in normal life. Maybe some of them are married and then Snow White comes in and they decide to help her. You know what I'm saying? There's other ways you could have done that. But instead, they just sidestepped the dwarf problem, the disability problem, and just...

erased it from the story. Okay, so basically, I'm a little confused, but I guess my question is, did Peter think that they should switch up the dwarves or just Disney did that on their own? No, he thought this story shouldn't be told. Oh, at all? Yes. Literally at all. Okay. So he said this on a podcast and I actually went back and listened to the podcast. They showed the clip. You guys probably know this, right? Oh, I love that you went

for the context people do this all the time to us they'll watch our short and then we're like you didn't listen to the conversation yeah okay so he I went back and listened he said something about it the host I don't think understood what he was saying and so then he kind of like not got frustrated but like he said it a little bit more dramatic basically like went for the kill like they should get rid of this story and

Disney then came out and said, we're putting a pause on this. And they recreated the movie based on his comments. So his comments... Do you know that for a fact, though? I have heard enough that I think his comments... Because it made the massive news. They had...

Fox News had some person with dwarfism on their show. It was a huge... It was all about diversity and all this stuff. You know what I'm saying? Inclusion. So it was a huge topic at the time. So Disney thought that he didn't want there to be dwarves in the movie. Yes, yes. He thought the story was just dumb to begin with, which that's a different argument I'm saying. So my main point is...

There's power of being on TV. There's power of television. And to put seven people with dwarfism on camera in a major Disney movie, there's still power there. So if the story is offensive, change the story. Don't change the characters. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, make them more like real people rather than men.

mythical creatures. So you updated the queen, made her diverse or whatever, do the same with the people, the actors with dwarfism. That was my thing. That was my big thing was...

Because to our original point, there's power of being on camera. Yeah. Even though what you're saying isn't always maybe educational, like it doesn't sound like a sermon or whatever, or a lecture. There is still power with anyone, anyone with disability or anyone. There's power of being on camera. Yeah. Great power comes great responsibility. If you're on power, people, or if you're on camera, people then, you know, have an idea that you're maybe smarter than you are or whatever.

Your words matter. You know what I'm saying? And so that's why. Do you guys feel like a big burden to almost...

represent the dwarfism community because of the show because of the platform does it does it make you that that'd be a lot of weight to have on your shoulders where you feel like you represent a whole community in a way and you have to be careful with what you say and what you don't say i feel like growing up on camera i was maybe a little bit like a teenager i wanted people to leave me alone being famous i wanted you know people were annoying fans you know like yeah i was 16 and

kids with dwarfism would walk up to me at the LPA convention, Little People of America conventions and be like so excited. And I just didn't want it. You know what I'm saying? Growing up now, now I'm a little older with three kids with dwarfism. I do feel more of a like, maybe this is my, and like, you know, when you're a kid too, like I had my issues of like,

and, you know, why did God make me like this? Blah, blah, blah. You know what I'm saying? But now I think I've like, maybe this is my lot in life. We've talked about this on our show of like, where do we want to put Raising Heights? You know, do we want to make it a show about like where we talk about stories with people with dwarfism and growing up like that? Or do we want to go somewhere else? But I'm like, man, Tori, maybe this is our like lot. You know what I'm saying? Like this is our,

This is what was given to us. I'm going to embrace this. You know what I'm saying a little bit? Like not denial, but like maybe we should go all in on this. Yeah. Because it was, you know, it could be a very cool thing. So yeah, I do feel pressure, but also like I embrace it though. Like,

I especially embrace it now. Like I, you know, 18 year old, 19 or 22 year old comes up to me, especially a boy. That's how I grew up living with some dwarfism. All my friends are, you know, six, two and running track and football and just, you know, girls and all sorts of things. There's a difference there. But now I'm like, all right, I know what you're going through. I want to help you inspire you. And if you,

So here's one, like even just liking or being friends with me on Facebook, if that helps you and your society, you know, gives you something to stand on, let's go, you know, you know what I'm saying? A little bit. Yeah. Be a resource that you wish you would have had like growing up. That's really cool. And like a role model. Cause like you're saying representation is so important. Yeah.

How did that affect you growing up? Like, I appreciate you sharing how, I don't know, at the little people conventions, people would come up and they really loved talking to you. Like how, but it seems like you didn't want that. Like how did that? I was really shy. I was super shy growing up.

uh so yeah that like and then people are like coming up to me and I'm like in a corner like I'm in a corner for a reason you know like so yeah it was tough like it's I grew up with it though it was fans and it was a lot of attention I always say like um

you know, I can walk into the grocery store and like, I'm being looked at, you know, and now like with the TV, for example, I'm still being looked at or an LPA where everyone has dwarfism where you're supposed to blend in. I'm still being highlighted. You know what I'm saying? So like there was no spot where I could just kind of,

not be looked at in a way, you know? And then when, again, you're a teenager insecure, like we all know this, we all have insecurities when we're young and you just want to hide from the world. For example, maybe I'm kind of going away from the LPA part of it, but like you guys put a sweatshirt on when you're in high school and put sunglasses on and like look like every other teenager. You know what I'm saying? I'm,

people with dwarfism maybe never don't have that same luxury. They're still standing out, you know what I'm saying? And, like, Tori may have debates on this. Like, she had insecurities growing up. I had insecurities. And, like, I'm not saying my insecurities were more valued than hers or whatever, but...

I could still go into a grocery store and my high school insecurities are still there. Those kids... Where I've kind of grown out of mine. Yeah. Insecurities that I had. Acne or whatever else or your insecurities were just in your head. Yeah. So there is a different, I don't know, thickness or like there's a different thickness that I think develops over time and then you mix the show in with it or whatever. So...

I don't know. Yeah. Kind of lost where we were going there. No, I appreciate you opening up. I think this is definitely helpful to people out there who can relate in some way. And also on the topic of kids, I know we were talking about you guys having three kids. How do you speak to them about dwarfism? How do you approach that topic and educate them on...

um, what, you know, why? Cause obviously, yeah, your kids, like they've been on reality TV and they also have dwarfism. So they probably notice sometimes, like if they go into a store, they, someone might stare or something. They're getting there. They're getting there. Jackson's still, we're not very much, we're very like when Jackson asked me questions, like, you know, I will then answer, but I don't think we're going to give him the talk of you have dwarfism unless he asks us, you know what I'm saying? It's like, I'm, we're not going to,

you know, we're going to let him come to, I'll let all of our kids come to us. Yeah. Some people are like, you have dwarfism and this is this. And like, they're not even, he doesn't, we just went to LPA and he's literally like, dad, why are you playing with all the kids? You know what I'm saying? The kids, the other adults, my size, these aren't kids. These are adults. He, he,

He like thinks I'm the only... Because of their size, he thinks they're kids. Yeah, like he thinks I'm the only person with dwarfism out there. Okay, and everyone else that are like me, they're kids, you know? You're the only adult. Yeah, or he'll say like, Dad, you know, is he the same age as you? And it's clearly like a 55-year-old person with dwarfism. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, no, he's like... So he's still... You're like, we don't correlate...

Height with age. Yeah. So he's still learning, but he's getting, he's, you know, he's in sports and he's realizing, you know, but he still hasn't like, he doesn't know. It's a hard, it's a hard thing to process though. Cause in our house, it's like normal, you know, I'm the weird one in our house. Not weird. I shouldn't say that, but I'm like the different one in our house.

And I think it's going to be very difficult to kind of know where to go and how to process all of it. Because I think we've said we really don't want to make...

any of our kids dwarfism their identity we don't want them to like you know think that that's all there there is to them and so it's like having these conversations when they bring them up I think is important because I think a lot of times especially parents who have advertised that have kids with dwarfism they tend to like that's their life like they tend to kind of

obsess over the dwarfism and the diagnosis and like the doctor appointments and all these other things and granted we're very blessed that like our kids don't have tons of major like medical issues but we also just don't want them to think that's all that they are there's so much more than dwarfism before the I get fact checked by the comments

that was the debate between our podcast going all in on dwarfism because we do tell our kids that's not your identity you know that's not like you are you are Jackson you are Lila you are Josiah you're not you know Jackson the person with dwarfism yeah necessarily you know what I'm saying but in

In terms of the podcast, that's our burden. And maybe that is, but also our opportunity. Right. So do you see where the conflict maybe comes in? In our home, we don't want it to be all about dwarfism, but...

in the public, what we put out to the public, maybe this is an opportunity to educate, inspire, whatever else it is. You get what I'm saying a little bit? Yeah. I like that. Sorry, you go first. No, you go ahead. I'm curious, like thinking, like we have young kids too and we're just starting to go to like kids events and like kids play gyms. Like I'm curious if you've ever had interactions where –

Children, they don't necessarily, they haven't learned how to, they haven't been socialized. You know, they stare when they see something or somebody that is different or they might say things that an adult probably wouldn't. I wonder if you've run into circumstances like that yet. I feel like directly with our kids, no, not yet. However, you find kids that just stare. Like our kids just look a little different and so they stare and they're kind of trying to figure out like,

Like, how old are you? You're operating like a 10-year-old, but you look like a 2-year-old. Do you want... Is that an instance where you would want the parent to step in and say something? Or, like... See, and we've talked about this, and it's very, like... It depends. Like, it really depends on, like, the situation. I think that when it comes to the kids, I would probably be a lot more defensive. But, like, we've had scenarios where kids look at Zach or my in-laws, and they're kind of like...

Why is your head so big? Or why are you so short? You know, because kids are just like blunt. They don't have any filter. They just ask those questions. And I and Zach, I think, have no problem stepping in and just saying, like, you know, giving an explanation. Or if parents are like gracious about it and ask questions, then I think we're an open book for sure. But it's those like instances that parents, because I think a lot of times in society, they tend to...

shun their kids from asking questions that are uncomfortable and a lot like sometimes parents will get mad at their kids for asking those questions and that's where it gets awkward and kind of like that we don't want that like we're like just be normal and just like ask a question if we choose to answer it great if we choose not to go google it that's good to know that's good to know just shush your kid

like Jackson again we're at LPA Jackson's staring you know because he's like is this guy like dad's age or is he like we were at a restaurant and our waiter had dwarfism and Jackson's just like follow and we're like dude like stop stop like you wouldn't

want to be stared at like that don't do it to somebody else but then we educate him that person has dwarfism like dad so a lot of parents I feel like in those situations when we're out in public shush their kids but they don't then follow up so I get it in the moment it is tough you're like totally that's super embarrassing just shush

shush, you know, like stop, let's go to a different aisle. But then rarely do parents, I feel follow them up. Like, yes, that person has dwarfism or that person looks a little different, but Hey, it's not polite to stare. If you have questions, you can ask mom and dad later or something like that. I feel a lot of parents just don't do that. And then they stop. Then they go keep shopping. You know what I'm saying? They don't educate the child. Like the difference in parenting really comes into play where parents

You know, I think a lot of things that we do, we think are common sense, but then they're not to other parents. You know, there's some parents that wouldn't think to go and educate their kid after. Because they are just worried about, like, how that made them feel. But you got to, the kid still has a question. Like, he still wants to know why.

I like guys' heads so big. Or why he shows forward because I've never seen something before in my entire life. And I've been living on this earth for seven years. I've seen a lot in seven years. That's madness. Do you like those kid interactions or does it get uncomfortable? It kind of backed what I kind of said, like childhood trauma or like teenager insecurities. I hated it. And so then like I've had to develop...

But it never went away, even though I'm an adult. So my teenage, like I was saying, like my teenage insecurities of going into a grocery store and if there's kids in the aisle, avoiding that aisle because I don't want that interaction. You know what I'm saying? And I never grew out of it. So I could go to the grocery store right now or the toy section in Target and kind of relive those experiences. So I've had to like,

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Because there's kids there. You know what I'm saying? I know what the kids are going to say to me, but my kids want to go play. So that's helped me kind of like get over myself. You know, that's just... That's who I am and that's what's going to happen. It's not like malicious or anything, but it's like... Sometimes it can be super awkward. Again, you walk in... You just want to be at the park on the bench. Your kids are playing and you show up and it's like freaking nuclear bomb just went off in these kids' minds. And they're like...

Like, who just walked into the park? You know, it's like, you just want to play there with your kids. You know what I'm saying? I'm just here. It's a Wednesday morning. Like, why are you guys here? Shouldn't you be in school? How do you anticipate that first time an interaction like that happens with one of your children? Like, how do you anticipate? Is that something where you're like, if they don't bring it up to me, then I won't.

I won't go and have that conversation. Or is it something where it's like you notice an inappropriate or not necessarily like you're saying not inappropriate, but just like a curious question that like gets directed towards one of your kids. And do you find that a situation where you would intervene or just talk about it later with your kid?

It's just developing resilience in them. I don't know if I would... That's his battle he's going to have to do. That's how I look at it, like, in a way. Like, I know the instinct of, like, a mom or dad would be, like, to step in. But in my mind, like...

He's going to go through that his whole life. And if he, you know, all my kids, Josiah, Lila, Jax is the one that's maybe dealing with that more on a soccer team, whatever else. But he's going to have, I can help him and give him support or whatever. But like that direct interaction, he's going to have to deal with that. I feel like that's where it's coming to play more though is like when we go to somewhere, like,

like a play like a play structure or something that kids don't know him I feel like that's where I don't really see it but it's like can I tell the story of his one of his best friends I won't say his name okay you tell because you're way better at it but don't yeah don't say their name okay so Jackson his mom's gonna know so I apologize I'll call her after this we just moved to battleground we took him out of his old school put him in his new school mid-season or mid-year whatever and

Like two weeks in. Okay. Jackson's a very social kid though. Yeah. Anyway, he comes on. He's very confident, very social. I love that. He gets very good behavior marks usually. Yeah.

Anyway, he came home with like a minus and a note and the whole nine yards. Okay, I'm sitting on my chair. Second week of school and I'm ready. I used to be a teacher, so I'm like, let's go. Like, what did he do? Yeah. Anyway, Tori's like, you know, Zach Jackson has something to say. You know, you got a minus. So I put my computer down thinking this is like. He's got a minus. I'm thinking this is going to be a huge story. Anyway, these kids were playing football and.

And they told Jackson he was too short. Okay, you're too short to play football. Okay, well, a teacher saw it and, like, bring all the kids together. That's not right. Anyway, she brings the other kid together, basically evens the playing field. And Jackson goes, I'm going to kick your butt and punches the kid in the stomach. Okay.

okay. My dude got written up. He got written up for that. I'm like, no, heck yeah. Okay. Like these kids are taking away the ball from him, telling him he can't play. And he's going, he didn't instigate anything. He didn't, you know what I'm saying? But like, yeah, he's like, dude, I'm going to, let's go. Okay. And he's telling me the story. I'm looking up at Tori going, Tori, I don't, I don't see anything wrong here. Like my man. Okay.

Like, dude, that's my dog. Okay? And now he's best friends with these kids. Now he's like, oh. Now they play around all the time. Okay, violence is not good. All that stuff. Okay? But I'm like, no, these kids are discluding him like that. And he, like, just says, dude. But now that we know the family and the kid and everything that, like,

That's like I think has changed our perspective like our outlook on how kids interact because it was him just simply stating a fact. He was not being malicious. He was not being a bully. He was just like you're too short like you can't play with us. We're older than you. You're never seen it. Yeah. They'd never seen it. But then once they like let him play and Jackson's like kind of good at football then they're like oh wait. OK. This is cool. Like we're good.

But it's like, it's allowing him, like he's going to have to figure that out. And we've talked about this on our podcast, not to plug our podcast again. Hey, go listen to their pod right now. If you're not, if you're not subscribing to, it's not New Heights. Raising Heights. I apologize. New Heights is a good one too though. We say this, like I truly believe sometimes parenting with someone with disabilities, parenting is hard regardless. And we don't do it.

you know, there's times we need improvement, but I truly believe raising someone with a disability, you know, the parenting might have to be a notched up one. Like you don't get the same luxuries as other parents. Like Tori doesn't get the same luxury to be able to be as relatable with other moms. You know, you probably, how many times have you had a conversation and like,

your kids are getting so big our kids aren't getting big you know our kids aren't in the same growth spurts as every other mom's kids you know i'm saying so like those conversations but then also parenting i like they're gonna have different challenges than every other kid too they're gonna they're not gonna be able to get away with as much or like i would say like confidence wise we want to develop confident kids you know if you're six foot four but you're

really immature but super good looking you can probably get a girlfriend still you know i'm saying like they'll kind of ignore that if you're five you know four four immature you know i'm saying low confidence and everything for example you know you don't have the luxury of like maybe i'm using dating as an example but like good looks and the rest can so developing confidence in our kids you know

And maybe those situations also then call for certain, like we want to step in as parents.

But I believe we don't have that luxury all the time because our kids, they're going to have those challenges for a long time. They don't grow out of it. You know, they don't, you know, that acne is going to still be with them. Not to equate dwarfism with acne, but like, okay. It's empowering them to like develop those skills on their own. Yeah. And maybe a little earlier than another child. That's my belief. And that's how I grew up. And that's,

That's just what, for my kids, I want them to... So even though it might hurt me as a dad, I want to step in. There's certain situations where I'm like... And then when he comes to me, though, when he comes to me, give him a big hug and dad loves you and yes, this and that. But I might say like, hey, he's got to be a dog and just defend himself. I love how you brought up the point, though, too, with kids. They...

They're so new here. Like they don't, they're not like, they're not being malicious. Like you said, like they're, they're just learning things about the world and other people constantly. And they're, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Like the spectrum of what they've been able to pull from, it's constantly growing. And so that is cool that like,

In a way, you're open to, like, helping expand that, like, knowledge for them. You mentioned dating, and it made me think about, we have a friend who's dating somebody from India, and I didn't know this was still a thing, but apparently, like, there's still a lot of people in India that they're not, like, a big fan of dating.

their Indian child dating a white person or something like that. And so I didn't know if that was a thing at all with you guys dating, if anybody was like, oh, Zach, why are you, you should date somebody who's also, who has dwarfism. - To build on that first, did you ever, did you in growing up think you would marry someone with dwarfism or? - I did, right? - Yeah. - On the show, I said, season two, I said I'm gonna marry someone with dwarfism and I'm gonna have a dwarf army.

I got the dwarf on me. I did not marry that dwarf. I was one for two on that. But no complaints. I feel like the way you just said that, I feel like you must have shouted that statement. Was that some sort of statement you said with pride? Oh, no. I was 14 and they probably said... Somebody made him say it. Yeah, the producer probably kept asking me. I probably said it like this.

I don't know. I want to... I'll marry a dwarf and have dwarf kids. But now, that's what the development. Now, I'm like, I'm a little bit more proud about it. You know, like, yeah, that's... You know, it's, you know, want to be proud of, yeah, marries anyone you want. But like, yeah, average height dwarf. We get that all the time. It's like, yeah, there's some...

People with dwarfism that, yeah, like you marry, sometimes it comes within the dwarf community. You marry someone else with dwarfism, you know. When I feel like that was the only place ever that like I ever really felt. So when I first started dating him, he was kind of popular in the LPA scene. Not by my own doing. Like all the ladies kind of like, like he was like good looking and like had a TV show and all this stuff. And so like the ladies were kind of into that.

And so I feel like when I came around... I could not be bothered, though. You could not be bothered. But I feel like when I came around, it was a little bit like those girls at LPA that had dwarfism, they were like, who's this chick? Why are you this girl? What are you doing? All these years, and then...

All these ladies are vying for attention and like, oh, who's Zach going to pick? And then shows up with some tall girls. I don't feel like we got too much pushback, though. We just talked on an episode. My dad, I can remember...

Like when I first told him that we were going to go on a date, my dad was a little like, no, like, no, you're not. You're just kidding. And I'm like, no, like, I'm really going to go like, you know, my dad's very like black and white, though. And he had this like picture of like where I was going to end up and what I was going to do and like didn't really see dwarfism being a part of that life. But then once he met Zach, now they're like, are there many people that.

you know, that have the same type of relation, like mixed height. Oh yeah. Yeah. But I feel like we're unique in the fact that like all three of our kids have dwarfism a lot because it's supposedly 50 50 for us to have kids. I heard you explain this on your podcast. And so that, that's kind of, I think unique for us because a lot of our friends that have one person of average height and one person who has dwarfism, they have at least one kid who has, who doesn't have dwarfism and,

But we have. We lucked out. Got all three. Are you planning on more babies? You're like, we got three. We are done. Yes. We have. Yeah. It's so. We're feeling a little outnumbered at the moment. Our kids are great. But it's not just our kids. It's. You know. Lila has a surgery. Had a surgery. Josiah has a surgery coming up. Jackson's already had a leg surgery. There's certain medical things with kids with dwarfism. But then also having three C-sections. I'm like.

I'm done. Like, my body, I don't think it can take anymore. We're, you know. We're content. Do you know, based on ultrasound, if the baby is going to have dwarfism? Yeah, like, third trimester. Oh, you don't know until the third trimester. Which also was kind of, like, kind of fine, because all my girlfriends, like, when they had babies, their last scan would be at 20 weeks, where we got to, like, go until 30, 40 weeks to, like, you know, track the baby. But, well.

We got all the tests. We knew before the doctors told us though. Really? Yeah. I know what this looks like. Our doctor was like, especially with Jackson, she was a little nervous, I think, to tell us. Because you never know how a parent is going to react to their child having some diagnosis. I saw the nose. I saw the forehead. And she comes in with this piece of paper and there's red all over it. And she sits down and kind of takes a deep breath. And I think we said it before her. We're like, okay, so he has dwarfism? And you could just tell she was like, yeah.

Yeah, you did. Okay, yeah. Okay, we're good. By Josiah, they were telling us like the second week.

second week was that a question like obviously everyone the question i was like do you want a boy or a girl like it's like oh which one do you want like was that a question for you guys it's like do you want a child that has dwarfism or not with dwarfism were people asking you guys that question oh 100 oh yeah and i think it would be rather bizarre for us to go oh yeah we really hope our kid has dwarfism and is different from the rest like i feel like that was always such a weird question because who would say that like who 100 that's where it gets kind of tough like yeah

The question, like, we love our... Maybe it was your dwarf army comment that they were asking him. No, we love our kids. We love our kids. But it's not like it's... I would not, like...

tell like I would not choose that for my kids there is a lot of suffering there's a lot of mental you know toughness that needs to happen there's a lot of medical complications that come from it you know what I'm saying so it's like but it's tough to say that and when I say this people will say like oh my gosh I can't believe you but it's like no reality is like yeah I would not wish dwarfism on my kids necessarily I wouldn't

Like no one would pick dwarfism over average height. You know what I'm saying? Like people might say they will. No, because they know it's not actually possible. It's not possible for me to actually redo my... You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like a genie is not right here. Right. You're like, it's not an option. So they don't say for their own security, but it's like, no. Like there is a lot of things that can happen, you know? And I think that's where like...

you know, something that we've talked a lot about lately, you know, is the question of like, why would you bring kids into the world if they were going to be different and have disability? When you know that you could have someone with dwarfism. And I think that like, as much as we would never wish that upon someone, that does not mean that your child cannot live a fulfilled life just because they have dwarfism. And be super inspiring and like be happy and all these things. So it is like this conflict. It's kind of back to another... But it's like, it's like the same as like you asked a parent like, oh,

Do you want your kid to be born with four fingers or five fingers? Like their life is still probably going to be pretty fulfilled if they have four fingers on one hand. But no one's going to say four fingers. But like no one's going to like say, I really hope my kid only has four fingers. Right. That's a really good way of putting it. And you mentioned surgeries. Are there certain surgeries that people with dwarfism have to get more predominantly, I guess, than someone who doesn't? Oh, yeah, yeah. Like Zachary has a shunt. He...

He has hydrocephalus. So average heights have shunts, but like if you go to a, here's my example. If you go to an LPA conference and go to like the pool or whatever, so tubes in your ears, like lots of people have tubes, you know, 50% of a hundred people in a pool at an LPA conference probably have earplugs in their ears. You know what I'm saying? A little bit like 50% of a hundred people with dwarfism have tubes in their ears. So they need earplugs.

You know what I'm saying? Why tubes in your ears? What is that? The water doesn't drain. The way our skeletal makeup is, water does not drain correctly. And so it sits there. And so the idea is if water's not draining, your hearing is really bad. If your hearing is bad, you might not develop speech the same. You also get ear infections and other complications. That's one thing we're battling right now. I had tubes.

I do not want our kids to have tubes, but they go through these episodes where they literally cannot hear because they have water in their ears. But it's like tubes are permanent. Tubes affect the eardrum. You can still get ear infections with tubes. And there's data now.

that maybe it didn't develop maybe it didn't affect the speech of people that didn't get tubes you know I'm saying well that's our data though you can't put that on the internet well I'm just saying I'm observing that like yes people that you know didn't get the tube it didn't really affect anyone the same way they thought you know I'm saying and so we're kind of battling that a little bit

Like, in our heads. But there's other complications with, like, our son has pretty bowed legs. There can be, like, issues with spine. Lila will probably need, so out of three kids, two of them already probably need leg surgery. Yeah.

And adenoids and tonsils are big when they're breathing. We're mouth breathers. I always say, like, if you go into our room, like we're in a hotel room and our three kids are sleeping, if your kids sounded like that, you would... You'd probably call someone. You would call 911. They're suffocating. You would call 911 on the spot. They just breathe loudly or snore. Yeah, they're snorers. They're all on a stool. They're snorers.

And they're like, stop. They've all had sleep studies already. Like, have your, you know, not have your kids had sleep studies, but you know what I'm saying? How many of your friends' kids have had sleep studies? No one. Like, all three of ours have already had sleep studies to see if there was something wrong. But we're also very blessed within the community because, like, there are some. And I think that when we first got together and, like, I went to, they have, like, the World Dwarf Games every year. And we went to, in Michigan, and

And I saw some things there that were really scary with kids, like medical issues that I, they, it terrified me. And I was kind of like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, I don't know if I can follow this path of motherhood. Cause that's all I really wanted was to be a mom and to have a family. And that was really scary. But then Tori married me or, you know,

fell in love with me. But then that concept, she did not see me as someone with dwarfism. I love Zach. But then, you know, once you do get married, the concept of like, wait a minute, these kids, I have kids with this guy, right? Like that thought came a little later. Yeah. And that was scary. And that was hard to like grapple and like, you know, really decide.

you know, if that's what I wanted for my life. And I think with him, because he has a shunt and that's like the scariest thing to me because it's his brain and he has something in his body and that like he's solely dependent on, otherwise he will die. And that was like, hold on. Like, can that be hereditary? Like, can my kids get that? Like, I don't know if I can deal with that. You did not say that at our first date. I didn't get that. Oh my gosh. First date, you're cracking out the medical questions. Yeah.

no I didn't yeah I got married and then I was like oh by the way I have this shunt that like my body relies on and just a year ago a year and a half ago I had a malfunction and that whole big thing brain surgery I forgot to tell her about the house and I forgot to tell her about the shunt my mistake I'm sorry I'm so clueless what exactly is a shunt is it different than the tubes in the ears yes it's different yeah there's

some reason there's fluid on your brain the body develops fluid it's a simple term like everyone has fluid on their brain but yours okay yours gets it down into the stomach and you know just pot

mind, it clogs up and hypothetically will drown the brain without a passage that gets it out. Oh my goodness. So, so it applies a ton of pressure. So when he had to have surgery or a half ago, the, the shunt had malfunctioned. So the drainage had malfunctioned and fluid was just building up in his head. How did you know?

it's pretty that's yeah i had migraines for a long time but then eventually it got to a point where he was having a migraine every week and then you know you go to the hospital you get sick and when they finally got me in my heart rate went down to like i don't know they're i'm pumped with morphine i'm like i'm still in a lot of pain and then they finally saw it it was difficult to see because it was all scarred up or whatever um so but then they did the transfer and

I'm like, all right, let's go. A year and a half ago. Yeah. So you had like a six month old.

Yeah, I did. Oh my gosh. Thank you for putting that out. I'm like doing the math. I'm like thinking. I feel like every stage we've had a baby, like literally every time we've had a birth, something would happen. I had to leave the hospital when we had Josiah because I had this massive migraine. And now that we know, it was his. And I had these migraines for a long time and we just thought it was maybe stress induced or we literally ended up chalking it up just to like stress or whatever. Like all the doctors like, oh, you're like, you just had a newborn. That's probably what it is.

And I was always like, no, this is something else. This is not... I'd been saying it for years. Finally, we went to Salmon Creek twice and they sent me home. Finally, we went to like OHSU, which is the big hospital in Oregon. And they're like, your shunt's broken. Thank goodness they figured it out. So I haven't had a migraine since then, which kind of makes me mad because it's... It's been 10 years. 10 years. Oh my gosh. And now I look back at it too, like every time we flew, Disneyland...

Every time we flew. That trip. That trip that we saw you guys. He. One day. He was in the room. All by. Like. Couldn't come out. I would just tell Tori. Hey. I need. I need to sit for a minute. There's some. Like. I have a headache or whatever. Oh my gosh. But now I've flown multiple times. And I'm like. Oh my gosh. Was it the shunt for 10 years? Like. To live without that pain finally. Yeah. It was. It was. It was pretty wild. Wow. It was annoying. But anyway. I don't know how we got off that. I don't know how we got on that job either. Well. I'm curious. Talking about having newborns and stuff. I'm just curious. I've been wondering if.

with a baby with dwarfism, is it different? Or is pregnancy and delivery about the same? So...

Yes and no. Like, a lot of women or families don't know that their child has dwarfism until after they've given birth. Because it's not something that their OB or doctor is looking for. Gotcha. There's also different types of dwarfism that aren't as obvious. Like, achondroplasia is not as obvious in the womb, like, until the third trimester. And so if you're not looking for it, it's definitely...

There can be complications with birth because their head is so big. So sometimes they'll end up in an emergency C-section or not be able to have a vaginal birth. But other than that, I'm convinced, and this is not scientific. This is just my own. I've had three kids, and they all had dwarfism. And this is comparing to my girlfriends who had kids. They have this number...

of like your amniotic fluid, like how much fluid is normal for a pregnancy. And it's like 12 to something is normal. And I had almost triple the number of normal amniotic

And so I'm like kind of convinced that like your body knows something is going on and something is different. And so it produces extra like cushion. Well, triple's quite a bit more. I was huge. Like I got huge during my pregnancy. I'm like, this is so unfair. And that's what it was. It was like the amniotic fluid. Are the babies smaller?

No, no, no, no. My kids were nine pound babies. Like they were huge. Oh my goodness. Well, and our first kid, like they, they kind of called it Jackson in my third trimester said he had dwarfism and he was born and they had to call someone in to like, does he actually have dwarfism? Cause our kids, like their features are a little less prominent than some babies. Um,

So no, they're like normal. As a baby, it's the head. It's the head. Everything else looks pretty normal. Wow. And they have this thing called, I don't know what they call it, starfish hands? So like when he puts his hand together. Raise your hand up. Yeah, yeah. Like your fingers touch? Like this is not just me. This is like anyone with work. That's like a cat. If you've ever seen someone with achondroplasia, I should say. Yeah, that's true.

do that and they'll have like a feature so that's how they that's how they found it on our son was like his fingers did not wait okay hold on you just said you said a contraplagia is that is that the like the medical official i'm an a contraplagia i'm a yes i'm an a contraplagia i have a contraplagia dwarfism people dwarfism there's thousands of different peter dinklage is an a contraplagia dwarf marty kleba from the pirates of the caribbean different type of dwarfism i've

I forgot his type of dwarfism. So there's like my dad, diastrophic dwarfism. But achondroplasia, there's hypochondroplasia, which is a type of achondroplasia, but there's a little bit taller in the torso. Achondroplasia is basically if you and I sat side by side or sat together, our heads, you know, we're standing up. You're two feet taller than me, but sitting down, it would seem like we're the same height.

You know what I'm saying? So our torso is similar. It's just our, our legs and our arms are affected. And there's other types of dwarfism where like the torso is affected. Um,

things like that. It was interesting you brought up earlier the mythical creature thing with Snow White and how you're bummed that you didn't see the dwarf community represented as much. Something that stuck out to me as I've like... Because Abby watched Little People, Big World growing up. I never did. So she, luckily, because of your show, was a lot more educated about the community and knew a lot more. Education! Because I think, I want to say like eight years ago, I don't know

I feel like I use like the old term that people used to use to describe people with dwarfism and Abby was the one who was like, no, that's... Does it start with an M? It started with an M. And I had no... I had no idea. I was literally just using it as a descriptive word. I had no idea that wasn't like a... It's derogatory. Words are tough though. Words are tough. Like,

For me, I've never been a super PC guy. I know what you're saying. I know if you're trying to be mean or not. The reason I don't like the M word is a lot of time I hear sports people use it or football players, they use it in a derogatory way. So when someone will say, why are you so offended? I'm not offended, but you know what you're doing. You know what I'm saying? When you hear it, sometimes...

People use it to criticize someone if you're on the basketball court. So it's like, that's why. You have given it meaning. You have given it the negative meaning almost. Yeah.

But even like the word dwarf, I think is going to be outdated in 10 years. Really? Someone just two days ago at the lake said this lady's like, hey, so like, are you a dwarf? Like, is that, you know, and when she's a dwarf, I wanted to say I'm a little person. You know what I'm saying? So like even the words have different meanings through different years. Little People of America started out or a version of LPA started out by M-A-R-I-A-T.

people of America. You know what I'm saying? Like back in 1930. No way. It's like words change over time. People ruin it. Yeah. But that's my thing is like why don't I like that word because typically people but yeah if some guy was like

Hey, Zach has the male. Who's Zach? Oh, it's the M that lives across the street. Oh, yeah. Okay, you're describing me. Whatever. But again, I've heard the word enough times where I'm like, you're trying to... It's on the soccer field or whatever. You're trying to hurt me. If that's the word you think about when you want to hurt me, you know what I'm saying? That's why... Then I don't like it. That's why...

It's not a great word, you know? So I don't know. It's a backward. Some people get super a little bit more about it. Even Victoria and me have been educated in ourselves. I keep trying to say people with dwarfism because it's not Zach the person with dwarfism. So it is like a language thing that like, again, not a super big PC person, but it's

I do feel how, like when I say it, I'm like, that is a good, for someone that doesn't know, and then they don't just think of me as like, oh, the dwarf, or anyone, it's the person with dwarfism. Yeah, they teach that in education. I'm sure you know that too. Like being teacher, like the people first language, it goes for like so many different areas. It just kind of like dignifies the person first before you're like, okay. And it doesn't defy the person first. Yes. Like it gives them a chance to defy themselves instead of. Yes. Yeah.

That's so interesting to you saying that the LPA convention started off with a completely different name that had the M word. That is interesting to me because it does show how language changes over time. Is the term little person, is that what we're seeing be like the most commonly used term? I think, yeah, most people, if you go to LPA and say, hey, how would you want to be referred? I feel most people will say, I'm a little person. You know what I'm saying? Like,

Or they'll say like the idea now is like, I'm Zach. Like, how would you want to describe your condition? So it's like sometimes people take it a little farther. But it's still hard. Like, where were we just the other day?

We were at the mall and he like went into a store and I was looking for him. I couldn't find him. And it is still just this awkward, like, what do you say to people? This lady goes like, oh, who are you looking for? And I go, oh, my husband. And I wanted to be like the short guy, you know, but like, it's like kind of awkward. I have no problem with that though. It gets things done quick. Be like, he's the shortest guy in the store. Hey, we need to get moving. But it is still just like weird. Yeah.

I don't know. Language has, like that, back to the, I'm going to go back to the Snow White thing real quick. Is there sometimes when people make such a stink about something though, and then it gets, you get almost pushed aside. So if we are, get so offended, you know what I'm saying? Like certain minority groups, I feel like, then the conversation, they go, we just don't want to deal with that.

So we're just going to sidestep it. You know what I'm saying? Or like, I don't want to even invite you on a podcast or something because I don't want to like have to feel like I have to navigate those waters and you're going to have, it's a, you know what I'm saying? A little bit. So it's like, sometimes that's my philosophy on all that. Like assume good intent. You know what I'm saying? Don't get too up about it because then most people will just like, Hey, we don't want to deal with that. We don't understand it. And it's easier just to get someone else because like,

We don't want to be canceled or we don't want to be... It's like... So it's this navigation a little bit and educating but also like having grace for people, especially if someone grew up somewhere where they've never seen someone like that. Like, okay, they're not going to know the right language. Like, that's totally normal. I don't know the right language for all the minority groups. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's a normal thing, you know? So... That's really good of you to like...

hold that grace and be open to questions and stuff like that. Yeah, I respect that a lot too because I think you're right. I think a lot of people, most people, I mean, there are truly horrible people out there in our world but like, I think, you know, most people want to do the right thing. I look at our society as like a bell curve. Like, did you guys ever take statistics where it's like most people on a bell curve are like, we're all, most people are the same, right? Like, the majority of people are all like pretty, like chilling here in the average area but then you got those outliers so you have the people that are like

really freaking good like the Mother Teresa's of the world who are so nice but then you got like the psychopaths that like do unspeakable things so I don't know but I think you're right most people don't have like

they're not out to, you know, yeah, we allow one psychopath to like dictate, like I could be here. I've had a great experience in Tennessee, but like one person come up to me, be rude. And then people will say, Tennesseans are so mean. It's like, no, you had one interaction. You know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like we do that. We allow those outliers to dictate how we talk and,

and act when really, you know, everyone's pretty the same, more on the same wavelength than what we feel, like what I feel like is told to us by media or whoever else. - Do you feel more relaxed now that you don't have camera crews around you? Do you feel like, I have so much free time, like let's go get into rock climbing. Like what are you doing with your time now?

It's raising kids. We are relaxed, right? But it's also figuring out what's next. You know, we still got three kids and what's the next, you know, job? What's the next, you know, it is, there's stress there. Yeah.

As a parent, you know? Yeah. And you want to give your kids a certain lifestyle. But then there's also... But yes, there's... This is the first time I feel like I've been on media not controlled by either me or the network. You know what I'm saying a little bit? Like, this is... Yeah. So, like, there's new experiences like this. Mm-hmm.

But yeah, it feels good. It feels good. And we're... It's definitely like scary. It's scary stepping away from a job like that and leaving behind all of the perks that came with that. That for sure is like very scary. And like I taught before we did any of this.

or before I did any of this, sorry. But like, what do you do now? Like go back to teaching? You know, it's just like that kind of, okay, what's next? Like what's gonna bring us joy? It's different than like being a software developer, for example, at Microsoft and you leave Microsoft, you go get a job at Intel, right?

or you go get a job at Salesforce or whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, kind of end it. You know, it's difficult to have a public job because it's such a distraction. You know what I'm saying? But it's also, you're trying to find something. You have to keep the train going a little bit. You know, and it's also like...

I'm not, I can't go start at a starting pay job. My life's developed. You know what I'm saying? I don't have any experience in any other industry. I'm a, I'm a TV child star, you know? So it's like, it's fun. It's navigating all that. Um, so it is, it's nerve wracking for sure, but you know, it's life. It's not the end of the world. And I feel like, and I think it's also pushed us to just like explore, um,

what we want to do. Like, where do we want to go next? And it's given us, like you said, the freedom to kind of like step back and ask those questions. And honestly, just to have a little bit of privacy for a minute has been very nice. Like having people at our house every week and not having to like come up with storylines of like what we're going to do that week. You know, it's that, I think that portion has been really nice. That's the crush.

Oh, what'd you say? Or that's the pressure of not having storylines is when you're on reality TV, they're always asking you, so what are you guys doing this week? And you almost feel like lame. Like going all these? But really, you're normal. But it's like, oh, I'm sorry I'm not skydiving every other week. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not normal. And like, we're in this season right now, too, that like our kids are kind of going through it with like medical stuff. And it's kind of nice not to...

have the cameras there. I didn't even think of that. And like to do it on our terms and on our... Jackson had his second leg surgery and we didn't share it on camera. Like he asked us not to share it and I think that was like a huge...

Like, point where Zach and I looked at us like, okay, what does this mean if our seven-year-old is asking us not to have them here? We kind of talked about it earlier, though, that also we were in a blessed position. That's a huge storyline. That's an easy... Like, we said no to a huge storyline for the show. Yeah. But we were in position. And that's kind of, you know, leaving the show. But we were also able to say, no, we're not doing that. These are our kids. They matter more. Yeah, what do you need? What do you need? Or like, I'll do anything to...

do whatever, you know, but we had to, you know, no, like he's not into it. That's not happening. And yeah, you're going to film us.

talking at our dinner table. Yeah, because what does that look like? I think obviously if you're doing, you know, you guys now are doing a lot more on YouTube. So with YouTube, you can just, you could literally record your video on a phone, but saying no to Little People, Big World doing an episode on Jackson surgery, what did that mean? Because I'm guessing you probably had multiple camera people that would go in on a doctor's appointment and film and do all that. So what did the ins and outs look like that?

Yeah, yeah. You were just, you were followed a lot. And sometimes like my big thing that you were asked questions, like they would interview about what just happened. Sometimes when you talk about something, it brings a new meaning. And then it almost puts an emphasis on something that,

I'd be like, that was cool. Well, you can't just say that on TV. Why was it cool? Talk about it. And they would ask you over and over again because after the commercial break, they need you to say it again. If you watch a show, you can see how it's structured. After the commercial break, they basically say, yeah, I'm here at Jackson's surgery, for example. And then that becomes annoying and...

Because it's like, all right, now it sounds like it's a... They're looking for something deeper. And it's a bigger deal than what it was. You know what I'm saying? So they're like, I feel weird saying this because it feels like because I'm saying it over and over again, it's bringing some weird emphasis to it. Well, then they would bring in storylines, though, too, to those scenarios that were kind of frustrating. Like, we would have, like, first birthdays or surgeries that they, like...

like Jay's first leg surgery. They wanted to like talk about his mom coming to like watch the kids. And that was like a huge part of the storyline, which is amazing. Like we're so grateful that she was there and could help us. But at the same time, we're like, if our son's leg surgery is not like dramatic enough and like, can't not because back then, like, why are we telling this story? Like, why are we getting a divorce? And I have my mom watching the kids and,

Oh, it's like, why is your dad not going to college? They just start talking about other things. There's like levels to this, you know? It's like, I see where this is going. Yeah. And so that was hard. And he's so good at like remembering what he says. Like he'll say something and two years from now, he'll say the same thing. He's very good at like remembering

where I, I like sometimes have word vomit and we'll just say something. And then two weeks later I say something totally different. And that could be like, not a good thing. Reality television. Yeah. People spot that. I'm curious, like you leaving the show, is it well received with the network, with your family, with everyone? Or was it like a harder conversation? Cause you said you were nervous about, there's a lot of family dynamics. Yeah.

That weren't great. So like that, no, it wasn't like joyous. But for me, it was, you know, someone needs to be an adult in the room. This isn't working anymore. And there's a lot of toxicness going on. And like, I know the money's great. I know this and that. But someone eventually, someone needs to say this needs to stop. We need to separate from this. And then we also kind of like said it, you know, no.

Networks don't like that. They like making those announcements. They like controlling that narrative. They didn't say anything to us because that's not how they work. But I just know from experience, we basically told the people we're done, you know? And I know that was probably not super... They were super stoked about that. I think that we also wanted to control the narrative. We didn't want something written that was like, oh, Little People, Big World's canceled. And, you know, I think we wanted to like...

write the people then say like oh they canceled or they they don't want like it's like no i'm we're we're making a kind of a big boy decision here like this is our stepping away from something that's at the top and like this is not you know what i'm saying i kind of wanted that respect a little bit like we wanted that respect a little bit of like you know this is this is our call here and it's a big one so like we don't want it to be manipulated any other way yeah

Yeah, it's probably the first thing you got to say on your own without their hand in it. I'm a very... I do what I'm told. You know...

I'm very good at it. I know how you feel. I don't like messing up stuff. Oh, no, no. I want to make everybody happy. Oh, yes. I'm a rule follower, all the things. And so, you know, I am not. I am not. You're a rule breaker. I am a rule breaker. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Tori does not like to be told what to do. Oh, no. Reality television was not a great industry for her. Working with the producer and all that stuff. Like, I'll do it when I want to do it. Who are they to tell? I wasn't cut out for it.

It wasn't cat. You get lines, you know, sometimes. Because sometimes when you film, you guys probably know this, you film something and then once you see it on camera, you'll be like, that makes no sense. We have to come in and add words to it or something or add a soundbite. You know what I'm saying? In the time, it makes sense. So they would have us do that, you know, to like add soundbite. Oh, you're so bad at it. I was great at it. Were you great at it? I was great at it. I said exactly what they wanted me to say every time. And you would always...

you had to change one word just to like, you know, like, well, they would like give you a line to say. And I'm like, I would never say that. I would never, you know, they would give you some like fancy dancy worded, whatever. And I'm like, this is not how I say this. Yeah.

That's funny. I didn't even realize. But it makes sense. Like, anything without the full picture is like, wait, what's going on? Right. Is the show canceled? Like, they haven't come out and said it. But, like, we're not continuing. So it is. They haven't, like, said, like, if your parents or anything. Yeah. They haven't said if my parents are continuing it in some form or if they would continue it. But touring me in that current format. I think reality television, we're done. I don't know. You know what I mean?

You never know. You can never say no. Like we're like people have asked us like would you ever have your own show? And we're like we're so like who would want to watch that? We're so. We were like the comedic relief of the show. We're very aware. We're not. We're not willing to do what needs to be done to be the sole characters on a real. You know what I'm saying? The drama. The. We're not willing to do that. So it is like a. I don't want to say no to anything. Yeah.

But the current format of, yeah, I wasn't totally stoked for how the last five years of Little People World Within the Family was kind of managed and run. So not even like a network issue, but also kind of a network issue. And yeah, so yeah, that format. But they have not announced it. Gotcha. But yeah, it was a great run.

you know, it got us to where we are now, but now we're kind of excited for the future and see where these opportunities take us. Do your own thing. Yeah. And see what we want to do. And like, I still want to, I'm a big soccer guy. I want to maybe start a soccer podcast one day, but. I know he's already planning to ditch me. He's like, how do I get rid of this chick? Okay. Why is it like when I think, cause I'm a big Game of Thrones fan. We, we loved Game of Thrones and watched it. Terrible ending though, right? Okay. Yeah. The ending. We actually kind of liked it, but we,

But we think it's because we didn't watch it in real time. We binge watched the whole eight seasons together. So we didn't have the build up. So we weren't like let down. It was okay. Like was the ending amazing? No. But yeah, since we binge it in a month, I feel like for, I don't know how long you watch it for, but for someone who probably watched it for eight years, probably was pissed that it wasn't like...

probably four years in and then we binged whatever was up to that point and then it was like the last couple seasons see that would be hard because even that's how I feel about House of Dragon like it's hard is that related to Game of Thrones yeah I just saw that it's the prequel to Game of Thrones you gotta watch it I think it was on your Instagram

I was like, we gotta check this out. Okay, hold up. But it's easy for me to get let down on those episodes because I'm like, I waited two years for the next season. You know, I can see where if we would have watched Game of Thrones that way. Because you mentioned this on your podcast, it was cool to have representation with Peter being Tyrion in Game of Thrones. I wonder why. I love Tyrion.

They should have brought him back or brought back somebody else to have like a similar like character to Tyrion in House of the Dragon because there isn't anybody. I don't think it would have made sense though because that's what made him so unique in the first one. Oh yeah. If they had already seen a dwarf before he wouldn't have been who he was. That was the idea is Tyrion was this like no. You know what I'm saying? Like it was unique. The first of his kind. Yeah. In the family bloodline. Yeah.

you know what i'm saying a little bit i hear you're saying if that was in the bloodline before i feel like his story wouldn't have made as much sense that makes sense because it is like the house of the dragon is like several years before back to the pc stuff though i'll admit like the term dwarf did i was like wait is that the correct term because you have like being used in snow white you didn't know if it was outdated it's almost like a mythical creature or whatever in snow white you look up

the dictionary. No, it's changed. Oh, it's changed. It used to. If you looked at the dictionary 15 years ago, 20 years ago, it would be a magical creature from a fantasy land. Yeah, what was it though? It was a magical creature from something. I thought it was fantasy. Yeah.

I was just reading, I just read all the Aragon books. I read those when I was like in middle school and I've gotten back into reading again as an adult. And I was like, let's just read, reread these books. It'll be fun. And yeah, there's like, you have just like a, a book series like Lord of the Rings. You have the dwarves in, in the books. Yeah.

And so, yeah, for me, I was like, wait a second. Is this the right term? But I guess the dictionary definition has changed. Something I feel like is like marketing, too. Like, I don't know. This is my own theory. So when the term dwarf became super popular, it's a marketing. Like, it's an organization for people with dwarfism. That's a... Oh, I know what dwarfs are. Like, I've seen them in...

and whatever, uh, what's the golden road? Um, wizard of Oz. You know what I'm saying? Like there's a marketing thing there and I feel like in a way, but now we were more definitely there's more people dwarfism on camera television. So you don't have to say that you can say a little person to someone and say, Oh yeah, I know that. You know, that's my theory. But back then if I was creating a, a,

for people with dwarfism. You say what people would know. What word is the popular word at the time? M word, D word, now little people. Gotcha. I'll have to check out your soccer podcast whenever you start it. Don't encourage it now. We did a coaching soccer topic on our podcast. It was our lowest rated one. Brutal. I was so into it. I was stoked for that.

Our pie chart showing all of our ratings, that one just... No one wants to hear me. But that's okay. I'll live. It's a passion project. It's a passion project for sure. It's important to do some things even though they don't bring that money or whatever. It's important to... It was a good episode. They probably were listening to me too much because I was like, oh my gosh, we're talking about soccer again. Do you coach your son? Yes. That

That's fun. You're the coach? Yeah, yeah. That's sweet. He's such a good coach. He's good. Yeah, I've done that since I was like...

15, work with kids and then having my own kids. The COVID took a year or Lila was born and then COVID happened. And then once you have your own kids, it definitely, I'm like, man, I can't imagine. I'm going to coach my kids. I might go back into competitive coaching, but you know, when you have your own kids, I'm like, I want to, this is where it's at. I can't, I would have a harder time. You don't want to hand that off. Well, I would have a harder time dealing with someone else's kids. No, I would still coach my kid, but then also in addition, like,

dealing with someone else's kids. Oh. Like, this is where I want my patience, my capacity. Yes, yes. My, you know, this is my focus here. I'm sure that's probably how you feel also about teaching. Oh, yeah. You're like, because I think about teaching, like, so many teachers are with kids all day. Yeah. And they come home and they're like,

I don't know how they do that. Like, it's... I feel like that would be really difficult to be a mom who teaches all day with other kids and has to come home and be present with her kids. My mom did, yeah. That's so... That would be really... And, like, I think one day I can see myself going back when all of my kids are in school, but...

Yeah, like my friends do it now when they have like babies at home and I'm like, how do you do that? That's so hard. Their capacity just grows and grows. Your dynamic and just seeing how you talk to one another and interact with each other. It seems like you just have such a healthy relationship and it seems like you like clearly obviously love each other very much. What like what do you guys do that you think helps build that bond that you have? Well, thank you. Yeah.

think that Zach and I are super reflective people like I think we're really like like we go to every situation and every you know hang out or anywhere that we go we get in the car and we immediately reflect on like what did we do well what could we have done better like in parenting and relationships and

I think that that's something that's really helped us in our marriage, just being reflective and communicative with each other. Just an emphasis on team, too. Everyone has a role. Which I struggle with sometimes. Just little things. He always talks about it's we, it's us. A lot of times I find myself saying I or my kids, my family. No, it's our family, our kids, our time. Even that small little adjustment I think is super...

and can change outlook on a lot of things. Yeah. Do you guys have like a weekly date night you do or is there some sort of like ritual or something that you guys do together that's like, oh,

oh this really you don't have when we moved up to battleground are we are we had we left our babysitter roster i know we had such a roster and then we just haven't been able to recreate it but we know but we go on date but we do go on dates not like a week late night more average than yeah like a lot of people like we still make time for just us i mean we're on this trip

by ourselves. You know, this is like such a gift just to be here. And, you know, obviously we miss our kids, but I think we do a good job of like, I think for us, we don't always have to go somewhere or go on a date to make time for one another. Like even if it's just, we put the kids to bed and we watch a show together, you know, just intentionality. Yeah. It's cool to see how you guys have respected, uh,

your family, your kids, and just wanted the best for them, clearly. And so it's clear that leaving the show was probably... I mean, you guys clearly thought about it a lot and really thought through that big decision, but it seems like you really care about your kids and keeping boundaries between reality TV and your family. How do you navigate family boundaries with extended family now that you have your own family? You just... Experiences, you get burned or whatever, and then you realize, like, hey...

this is what needs to happen you get a lot like I'm a very passive guy and I want to make everyone happy but yeah when you do have kids you do it does light something under you where it's like you know this is not happening or we're separating from this or we're doing that I think when you intertwine business with family it gets super complicated and I think that this you know last what year almost that we haven't been doing the show it's really just trying to figure out

What does our relationship look like with our family outside of business? You know, like we're not working with our family anymore. And, you know, we... That's kind of what I was alluding to. I don't think that was always navigated the right way. Also, like beyond reality television, though, too, just having space sometimes is really nice. Like when you're... Like I love like in-laws. They're great. They're great. But sometimes being 45 minutes away from family is...

It's okay. Like we don't all have to live next door to each other. We don't all have to hang out. You know, we're like, I feel like for the first time, especially in Zachary's life, like I went away to college. And so I kind of got a taste of what it's, what it means to get away from family and like do things on your own. But I feel like for the first time in our marriage, we're completely making decisions on our own without the input of anyone else that

whether it be friends, family, anything. Like, we're doing our own thing in Battleground and we're loving it. Like, we're having fun and making friends on, like, our own. And it's just been nice. Battleground, there's not a lot of people I feel like

You can make friends that people maybe don't watch Little Pupil World up there. Yeah, which is nice, too. A bunch of farmers and everything. We don't have a TV. What did our neighbors say to us? No joke, the day after we moved in, they were like, oh, we Googled you. We're like, that's not fair. You can't Google us. We can't Google you. Our neighbors, they have a road building business right next to us, all their equipment and everything. And there's days when we're out there filming this or that.

When we were doing Low Pivot Big World and all their blue-collar workers were looking over the tree line. What are they doing over there? Yeah, we're like the new...

couple from LA that just moved up there like doing like social media stuff and they're like they're making America move over there okay building roads and we're goofing off on social media oh my gosh what the hell is going on over there like get a real job yeah honestly yeah it's so true I love that that's refreshing I love that it's very it's grounding like Battleground is a very grounding place they don't care how many followers you have it's humbling yeah yeah oh

I love that. Well, thank you guys for coming on the show and like just sharing. I don't know if so much. Yeah. Thank you for allowing us to ask questions that like probably you're like, maybe we didn't say everything like exactly right. Or just like letting us like be educated. And like you have such a cool story. I admire so many aspects about you guys and you as a couple and how you've

You've navigated the media too. Just like so much grace, so much wisdom. Yeah, I hope that...

Yeah, I just really want to make sure that people hopefully are educated in some way by the episode and like learn maybe learn something, but also got to know you guys a bit more. And if you guys haven't checked out their podcast, go go check out Tori and Zach's podcast Raising Heights. It's awesome. I've listened to a few episodes and I think you guys are great. So where else can people find you besides your podcast?

My Instagram? Yeah, Tori's Instagram. Zach tries Instagram, but... I'll post things on my Instagram and they think it's Tori. They all think it's me. Yeah. Like, we know this is it. Tori's Instagram, our YouTube, and then the podcast on Spotify, Apple, and wherever else you listen to your podcast. Look at you. Good job. Wherever you listen to that. He's like, that's a link below. That's like every podcast you ever, or wherever you get your podcast. Yeah, wherever you listen to your podcast.

I thought they were telling podcasters to say that. And then I was like, no, we just all do it. Yeah, you just say it.

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