Overcoming Miscarriage, Infertility & Near-Death Experiences with Ashley & Mike Lemieux
01:09:40 Share

- The ultrasound tech had the screen on for like maybe 30 seconds and there was no, nothing was moving. The tech just like went blank. I remember I said, "I lost the baby, didn't I?" And he's like, "I need to call the doctor." - Growing up, there's like an idea of what your family is gonna be.

So for me, it was more than just losing him. It was losing that. There's this team of doctors around me and there was this one man. He was doing my heart test. I remember looking at him while he was checking my heart and I said, am I going to die? I feel like it's not talked about a lot, struggling with infertility after having gotten pregnant and after a loss like that. And then pregnant again. There was a lot of emotion. It was like this beautiful, joyful thing that was finally here. And it was so difficult.

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What's up, dudes? And welcome back to the Unplanned Podcast. Matt, it is 9 a.m. and you have way too much energy. I drank a coffee this morning, so I'm feeling it. I guess 9 is actually literally not even early. It just feels early. Today we are joined by our friends Mike and Ashley Lemieux. Ashley is... Hey, yeah, let's give it up. You guys, we're so excited to be here.

be here like this chatting with you. Hey, we are so happy to have you guys here with us. Ashley is an author. She's a social media personality. She's also been very open online and Mike as well about past loss and grief that they have experienced and they've been very vulnerable about that on their social media. So we're super excited to have you guys. But more than that, they're our friends. Yes. Yes. Yes.

And they convinced us to move to Arizona. That's right. We're the ones. From Hawaii to the middle of the desert. I'm still really proud of that. I feel like that's an accomplishment. I still have the list on my notes app of all the things that we read to you. That's right. Yes. To convince you to choose Arizona. We literally were sitting there and wrote down everything that we could come up with. I forgot about that. I forgot. Because I was asking, I was like, Mike, why should, because we were stuck between Utah and Arizona. Yeah. Like, why should we move to the middle of the desert into the hottest city in America? And you made that list. Yeah.

And it worked. He put a lot of thought into that list. And here we are. Is it hotter here than Death Valley? There's no city in Death Valley. So this isn't the hottest spot in America. It's the hottest city in America. That's so funny.

to talk about the beginning of our friendship. I think we do too. We've been friends for how many? I actually think it's been like two years. Over two years. Yeah. A lot has happened in those two years. We moved to Arizona, met you guys in Hawaii, bonded over playing Settlers of Catan. We never even went to the beach. When we met you guys in Hawaii, we never even went to the beach together. We just played Catan. We never did. We literally came over every night to make dinner and to play Catan. And that was like what we did in Hawaii. And we played once since we've...

Well, because now we have three babies between the two of us. We didn't have any kids back then. They throw a wrench in the Catan plans because you've got to block them for like two hours. I think we've set it up probably three or four times. Yeah, that counts. But then they wake up or something. It just gets derailed. Someone poops on the floor. Yeah.

So we have a little inside joke with Mike and Ashley. We try to bring it up any moment we can. We met at a, was it a three-year-old birthday party? First birthday. It was her first birthday. It was her first birthday. She's three now. Wow. Okay, well, we met at a one-year-old birthday party in Hawaii, and the theme was shell-themed.

So we always bring it up. No, it was definitely mermaid themed. Well, it's called the Shelebration. Yeah, the Shelebration. And so any chance we can get to mention the Shelebration, we mention the Shelebration. So at that time of the year, we celebrate her birthday and the birth of our friendship. Our friendship.

Every year we get a shellabration for our anniversary. It's so wholesome. I remember being so nervous, by the way, at that shellabration. I don't know why. Maybe it was a COVID thing because I was never like around a lot of people. Matt, you're always a little bit like that. Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes it gets weird. No one would guess it. Like you're so bubbly. Yeah, no one would guess it. I get social anxiety sometimes. It's easier when it's just like a one-on-one conversation or like a small gathering like this. But if it's like a larger group of people, I feel like pressured to like...

perform or like, I don't know, appease everybody. Anyway, I was talking to you, Mike, and I said something to you. I had no idea about your past story, but I said something to you where I immediately felt really bad for saying something. And I think it was a question that I asked you. I think it was either, do you have kids or do you want to have kids? It was one of the two. Maybe it was grouped together as one. And right away you went into like, you just started opening up about how

you didn't have kids and how you really wanted kids and like a little bit of your story. And I've immediately felt this like guilt of like crap. Why did I ask that question? Maybe I shared, maybe I overshared there at the beginning. I think it was fun. I think it was like, it definitely, you were vulnerable and I think like we started a connection right there because you were, you opened up in that way. Do you remember me asking you that question?

No. You don't? Really? No way. So you can go feeling guilty about it because it didn't make him upset. You don't need to feel guilty. It's okay. I guess there's probably not a right or wrong answer for this, but is it wrong for people to ask someone, hey, do you want kids? People that might have a complicated path in parenthood, you don't even know it. To ask, just be like, I don't know. How do you go about that as people that have experienced that?

I think it can be really hard when you don't know them well or you don't know their background. And it is so common, right? Like when you meet someone for the first time, you're trying to find commonalities. You're trying to learn about them. And one of the first questions is always like, so do you have kids or how many kids do you have? And I think for someone that has this, I'm going to say normal family dynamic, it's just easy to answer. But there are so many people who...

have had a harder road, whether it's infertility, whether it's loss, whether whatever that thing is. And so that answer becomes more complicated and answering it off the cuff like that can, I don't know,

feel at least for me, emotional or heavy or hard. So that's something that I try to stay away from until it comes up naturally in a conversation because I think a lot of people too, when they do have kids and you're getting to know them, they...

start bringing it up. And so then I ask, Oh, how many kids do you have? Or how old are they? So that's something that I look for just because I know how sensitive that topic can be for people. So when people would ask you, do you have kids or like, do you want to have kids? And yeah,

back then you didn't. How did that make you feel when that question came up? It was really difficult. It even still is difficult when people ask how many kids we have because we have our baby now and but I'm a mother to more than her but he's just not physically with us and so even still it's so hard because

once I have a relationship with someone, then I'm comfortable talking about that. But just for some, some person that I don't know, I'm always like,

How do I answer this? Am I not honoring him if I only talk about my daughter who's with us? Or do I feel safe talking about this? And so, again, it's just this complexity of emotions of the situation of just grief and loss that can make it feel complicated. So...

I don't know if there's a clear answer for that question other than everyone handles what they're going through differently. And so I just try to be really aware of that when I meet other people. And I still struggle with finding the balance of what do I tell people when I'm meeting them and what do I not? Yeah, for me, it was really situational the way I answered the question, because if I want to explain to them,

I will. If I don't, then I say now I just say one or before our baby was born, I would just say, no, we don't have any. But with you, I must have felt comfortable enough and safe to share that with you. And so, you know, you asked how did it make me how does it make us feel? How does it make me feel sad? Because we lost our boy, right? Yeah.

And it made me sad for a really long time to where I didn't really want to talk about it with, because of the feelings that it brought up to me. And it made me so just miss him, sad, uh,

I would cry. It was uncomfortable. But then when I realized that it was okay to feel that way and those feelings, that they would come and go and that I wasn't, I didn't need to try to avoid the conversation. That's when I was able to start opening up more about it and still feel sad that he wasn't there. But so no, I mean, and it's also...

People, when they ask you that question, they're not intentionally trying to make you feel that way. They're just genuinely curious. Like, who is this guy that I'm meeting at the celebration? Like, I want to figure out who he is. You know, you didn't have kids at the time either. So it was like just figuring out, you know, who the person is. So and I understand that it's not.

anything that was other than that, you know, intention wise. So totally for people that might not be familiar with your story, you've mentioned your son just briefly, if you're comfortable, like explaining to our viewers, like kind of quickly what happened or like his story. Yeah.

How deep do we want to go here? As much as you're comfortable. Totally up to you guys. Yeah. So we had just moved back to Phoenix. It was right when, and I know no one likes talking about this anymore, but it was right when the pandemic was shutting everything down. I know. I'm sorry to throw this word out, but it happened and that's,

That actually impacted what happened to us greatly because of just the uncertainty of that time. So we moved to Phoenix. We buy our house and I'm 16 weeks pregnant and we're just so...

We're so excited to enter into this new chapter of our lives and growing our family. And I remember one day, like that first week we moved in, I was playing the nursery with my mom. And it was also the first week in Phoenix that everything had shut down from the pandemic. And so I remember being kind of afraid because I was pregnant and everything was still very unknown. But I also was like, you know what? This can be a really special time for us to cocoon in our new house and get things ready for the baby and everything.

and start this new chapter together. And it was a totally normal day until later in the afternoon, I started being in the worst pain I've ever felt in my life. And it kept progressing. It was basically my whole body just felt like it was on fire. And I was like, something's wrong.

And I was afraid though to go to the doctor and by the point where it was pretty severe, where I knew I needed help, the OB, the doctors were all closed for the day.

but because the pandemic had just started, I also was very afraid to go to the hospital because we're just hearing of this new virus. And now it's entered Arizona. People are in the hospitals with it. And so I was too afraid to go to the hospital. And I was like, I'll call the doctor in the morning. We'll all be okay. And we,

We got to about midnight that night and I was screaming and I couldn't get out of bed. I was in so much pain. So at that time, Mike was like, I need to call an ambulance. So an ambulance comes. I have a fever. They're having to help me walk.

And they're like, we need to take you to the hospital. So they took us to the hospital. Mike followed behind. And when we got there, the first thing that they did was check on the baby and the baby was great. Kick in, move in, doing great. And I was like, okay, I know that the baby's okay. So now I can, I can get through whatever I need to get through because I just need to keep the baby safe.

And then they ran some tests on me and the doctor came back and he, I remember him looking very serious. And at the time I didn't know really the severity of what he was telling me, but he said, "We just got your blood samples back and you have gone septic." And what sepsis is, is basically whatever infection you have enters your bloodstream.

A high amount of people who die in hospitals, they're dying from sepsis. A lot of times you can lose limbs from sepsis. It has like ongoing severe effects. And because I was pregnant, it added this new complicated layer. And so they said, we need to admit you to the hospital. We don't know how long you're going to be here, but you have to be watched. You have to be put on antibiotics. We got to take care of this. And then they said,

Also today, the hospital implemented this policy because of COVID that no one can have an outside guest come in with them. And I remember just looking at him like so confused and then looking at Mike and I was like, does this mean I have to go? You're taking me and my husband can't come?

And he's like, yeah, you need to say goodbye right now. And I just remember feeling so lonely in that moment and so afraid for what was about to happen because it just felt... Everything just felt so scary. And now you're telling me I have to come do this alone and then he has to go home by himself. So they... Also...

They told you because you were pregnant and because of all the uncertainty, they didn't know where to put you. Yeah, they didn't want me mixing with the wrong patients because they were trying to protect me so much from potentially getting this new virus. That's right. So they took me to the triage, which basically you have curtains surrounding you. And for the next several days, I was just behind my curtain and you can hear everything going on. The next day or maybe it was two days later,

Time's blurry now, but there was this moment where I called a nurse because my whole body, it felt like it had gone numb and I was having a really hard time breathing. And so I called her over and I was kind of panicking and she said, okay, I just need you to know that

really soon there's going to be all the doctors on the floor around us. It's called a rapid response that she had requested. She's like, we need all the doctors here and I just need you to know that's going to happen. So I remember all of a sudden there's this team of doctors around me and they're checking my heart, checking my, um,

my vitals, putting the oxygen mask at me. And there was this one man, he was doing my EKG, which is a heart test. And his name is Willie. And I have since gone back to thank him because of just how impactful this moment was for me, especially because I just hadn't had human interaction for all this time in the hospital. I remember looking at him while he was checking my heart and I said, Willie, am I going to die? And...

he looked at me and he said, "You are the only one who can pull yourself through this right now. You can do this, you were made for this, you've got this and I'm here with you too." After that was over, I remember just pulling from somewhere deep inside of me, especially because I knew that I was pregnant and needed to protect my baby.

I remember just like pulling some strength from somewhere where I was like, my option right now is not to die. Like I have to stay alive. And that's where my mind now is going to focus. Um, because me and this baby are going to come out of this. So after it got through that couple of hours, I asked a nurse, I said, I need you to check on the baby. And because I

Also deep inside of me, I was like, there is no way that me and my baby just survived whatever has happened. So they sent up a...

a nurse for like a little Doppler. They like put a, just check the heartbeat through your belly and she couldn't find a heartbeat, but she's like, this is normal. Dopplers are unpredictable. We're going to send you down for, you know, your ultrasound. They can send you back up with your ultrasound photo so you can know the baby's okay. And, you know, we'll keep getting through this. So that night they sent me down to go get an ultrasound and

And the ultrasound tech had this screen on for like maybe 30 seconds. And I remember looking at this screen because I knew what, you know, you know what to look for. You can see the heartbeat at that point. And I remember looking at this screen and there was no, there was nothing was moving. And the tech just got like this blank, blank, just like went blank.

And I was like, and I remember I said, I just lost, I lost the baby, didn't I? And he's like, I need to call the doctor. And he took me out. And at that point I started sobbing and there was another nurse out there and she's like, oh, I can print off the pictures of the baby for you. And he just, cause she didn't know what happened. And he looked at her and just start like shaking his head. And, um,

I remember just telling them, can you guys just tell me what's going on? I just need someone to talk to me right now. And they're like, we need to call your doctor and she'll be up soon. And I just sobbed being wheeled back to my little curtain room because I knew that we had lost the baby. And the doctor came in about an hour later and confirmed that. And then she said that I would have time to figure out how I wanted to deliver the baby.

And she said that Mike still couldn't come in with me. And I remember a nurse coming in and holding my hand and I was just sobbing. And I was like, I need my husband here. I need someone here with me. And so she tried to go get permission from the head of the hospital, whoever was making the decisions. And she came back and she was like, I'm so sorry. You're going to have to... No one can come. So my sister and my mom drove to the hospital that night and just FaceTimed me in the parking lot so I could just feel like...

Like I wasn't fully alone and then the next morning unexpectedly I ended up delivering him in the room all by myself because he just I was in labor all night but I didn't know that because it was the first time I had been pregnant. Yeah. And that opened up this whole world of grief and loss and trying to find ways to move forward while honoring him. His name's we named him Jace and

while also believing that we can build a beautiful future that we'd always dreamed of. I'm so sorry, you guys. We've known you for two years, and this is like the first time that I'm actually hearing this full story. And we've been aware of just a little bit of kind of like what you've gone through. But like, thank you for being vulnerable enough to share that. And I'm just, I'm so, so sorry that...

you experienced that. I'm, I just, there's just no words. Mike, when you, when you got the news, like, was it, was it immediately? Was it hours after? Like, cause I was thinking through this, like, yeah, you weren't even there. You weren't even able to be in the hospital because of the pandemic. So a few days, this is like the span of a few days and we were talking and I would drive to the hospital too. I would FaceTime, I would call, I would just sit there as long as I could. And then I would have to go home and

somehow sleep and the night that all the doctors came in I knew and I just I didn't want to accept it I I said there's a chance maybe we'll get a miracle maybe he'll be okay you'll be okay let's just see and Ashley's like no trust me I said yeah I know what you said what you're saying I didn't want to believe it like it was just no so the next morning after it was confirmed I

It was more than just losing your baby because for me at least growing up there's like a an idea of what your family is gonna be and look like and how that Comes comes about yeah, so so for me. It was more than just losing him it was Losing that the idea and well wait a second it actually doesn't necessarily always happen like this life is

can be brutal and really hard. And so dealing with that reality on top of not being able to be in the hospital with her and having to just sit there and wait, and then finally going and being able to be next to her, it was for someone who is as protective as I am, especially of her,

It made me feel worthless, right? Like there was nothing I could do other than just pray and talk to her and hope that everything was going to be okay. And from going so excited to just total loss, it was...

It was terrible. You know, you really you don't want to eat. You just feel fatigued and exhausted. You are confused. You're trying to make sense and piece stuff together to know what you could have done differently or better. And none of that really matters because the reality is, is that you're there without the baby. And so.

So I finally got to the hospital. Yeah, they finally let him come because they took me to the labor and delivery unit. And that's the only area of the hospital you could have a guest. One guest. Okay. Yeah. But also Mike was also dealing with the loss of our baby and the fear of losing me. Because I'm still very sick at this time. When you got admitted to the hospital and you couldn't go back, did you know the severity of Ashley's situation at the time? No.

When, as she would update me. Yeah, I would. And my brother-in-law is a doctor. And I think once, the second he heard that I was septic and then his response, I was like, oh, this is really bad. So got to the hospital after labor and delivery. Ashley was not as I had ever seen her before.

it was just it was crazy i remember though you brought me shampoo and conditioner because i'd been in the hospital for all these days my i had like the biggest rat nest in my hair just sweaty gross i've been in a bed for days and so i get there and i'm just like just holding her sobbing together and the nurse washed my hair i washed your hair and brushed it and as best as i could anyway

How many days did you go without, like, getting to wash or shower? It's been at least a week. Yeah. A week of just, like, though also being in the hospital, like, laying in a bed, not moving, being in labor. I mean, it's, like, not... It's disgusting. And I'm still... I don't understand the whole, like...

If you could explain for someone who's like ignorant like me when it comes to like being septic, like I understand illnesses can get really bad. Like I know even like the flu can kill people, but like septic, is that just like when an illness takes a whole new, like you said the virus enters your system? Your bloodstream. Your blood essentially is like infected. Okay. Yeah. And so then it's pumping. So if you think of the bacteria, so usually it's called from,

from a bacterial infection. And we now know that for whatever reason, when I get pregnant, my body overproduces a certain bacteria that then it like tips the scales from what your body can handle. So entered the bloodstream. So kind of just think of like if poison was being pumped throughout your bloodstream and into your heart and into all the organs of your body and your kidneys, uh,

It shuts you down. A lot of people who go septic actually go into kidney failure because it can't like process through the kidneys. So yeah, that's really, that's rare, right? Like that's not something that just happens often. What happened to me is incredibly rare to go from totally healthy and good and healthy pregnancy to almost dying from sepsis within hours is very rare and

But a lot of people do go through sepsis. And I think because it's not talked about a lot, they don't know the warning signs of how sick you actually are until it gets a little bit too late. Gotcha. And you guys going through this had already been going through before this whole event.

wasn't infertility something that you guys had also been through as well? Not yet. No, that was, oh, this happened after. Yes. So then afterwards, I don't know where you guys want to go from here. If you want to jump in there. I'm sorry. Like this is, wait, no, I think there's a lot of info. We're

so how, wait, first of all, how long was your hospital stay at that point? Like from the beginning to the end, probably about a week and a half. Yeah. About a week and a half. And then you still had, I'm sure like a long recovery, a very long road, but they also wanted me out of the hospital as soon as possible because they were more afraid of me being in the hospital still to be as sick as I was and then potentially be exposed. Yeah. They wanted me home. And for the next six weeks I was so ill.

I called my mom one night, I remember, again, and I was like, if they don't figure out what's wrong with me, I feel like I'm actually going to die. I kept going to doctor appointments. So then I hear her say that and I'm like, immediately brought back to six weeks before and I'm like, oh my God.

Poor guy. What are we going to do? I've been through a lot with me. Were you taking off work or were you like, what were you doing at this point? Well, I work from home. So, you know, I, when it happened, I was coaching people at the time, you know, over Zoom and I was just like, I'm so sorry. I need, I need to take a little bit of time here. And everyone understood. So it wasn't hard. Yeah. But after all further doctor appointments and tests,

I woke up one morning and I felt like my body was being eaten alive by fire ants. That's the only way I can describe it. So this is six weeks after everything. After you left the hospital? After I left the hospital. And this is shocking what she's about to say. We were beside ourselves once we figured out what happened. So I'm like, I don't know who else to call because I've been to all the doctors. I'm just going to call my OB because...

I know that she does listen to me, so maybe she can help. So she's like, come in, we're going to give you an ultrasound to see what's going on. The tech immediately does the ultrasound and she's like, I need to go call the doctor. And within 24 hours I was in an emergency surgery because they found retained placenta, which kills you, uh, after especially that long. And so, um,

That entered this new road of recovering from all of that. So it was like someone came into our life and lit a, like just lit it on fire. Like everything that we knew and were hoping for and trusted in was just felt like it had exploded. And now we needed to figure out how we were going to rebuild and heal and me just like

feel better just functioning as a human again. Something I've learned a lot just from like being your friend and then also your social media is like grief is not just like grieving what has happened but also like you said like your expectations of like what was going to be so like how did you start to pick up the pieces and start to rebuild at that point what were things that you did to kind of

fix what had been broken in some way? That's such a good question because I feel like it's something that we are still figuring out and are still rebuilding, especially when you have a certain dream or expectation that all your hope is going toward and then that's shattered and

figuring out first of all, who am I now after this? Because who I was is totally different. And I think for both of us, that's something that we both grieve is who we used to be. Like I'm never gonna be that Ashley again because I'm different now. I know new things now. I see the world differently. I have different trauma than I did before that makes me react to situations differently.

And the very first thing that I had to do was start figuring out who am I? And now as I have this kind of blank, scary slate of my life, what are the things that I want to add back into it? And, um,

That's what I started focusing on first. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Postpartum can be such a challenging time, not just for the mom, but for the couple in general. I know we've been very vulnerable about having some conflict since baby. Yeah, I

I don't know. I just we like to keep it real with you guys because we're imperfect people and we have challenges and our marriage goes through hard times just like anybody else. And that's a big part of the reason why we have made the decision to start therapy. Yeah. And I'm really excited to get back on that, prioritize our marriage and most importantly, prioritize our mental health. And if you're interested in starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's designed to be convenient,

flexible, and entirely suited to your own schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire online and they will match you with a licensed therapist. And what's great is that if it's not a great match, it's not working out, you're not feeling like you're benefiting from that, you can switch at no additional charge to a new therapist at any time. That's so nice. That benefit alone makes BetterHelp incredible. It's great because...

Because it's kind of intimidating to go into an office, or it can be, to see a therapist. But being able to do it from the comfort of your own home and in your own time is really important and a great step for convenience. And I think it's important that we acknowledge, like, therapy is not taboo. It's not weird. It's totally normal. And we...

all need it get a break from your thoughts and visit betterhelp.com slash unplanned podcast to get 10 off your first month that's betterhelp h-e-l-p.com slash unplanned podcast today i remember for months i didn't i didn't care about anything yeah you were really depressed i was really depressed none of it made sense like what's the point and i remember talking to ashley just mad

What's the point of this? Like, there is no point in work. There is no point in having a house. There is no point, like just weird, weird things like that. What's the point of eating this or that or going here? None of it made sense because all I wanted was Jace. That's it. Yeah. None of it made sense. And so I was looking at myself one day.

I pulled up my phone and I held it up to me to take a picture for some reason. I hadn't shaved. I needed a haircut badly. I had my glasses on. I looked 20 years older than I was and I looked at myself and I just kind of laughed and I said, you know what? I have to figure out why it matters right now. Yeah. I can't keep going in this pattern. And I was really lucky to be able to have that thought.

there was a lot of work that went into building something again after that and something that I could actually care about. But in that moment, in that realization, that was a turning point for me because I knew that I had to figure out how or what that was. So I think from there we decided what can we do to bring us closer together?

What can we do individually to build us up and help us feel happy and safe? And like there's things and reasons that we want to keep going and building. And we just started to do them. Simple little things, whether it was going on a date or...

Or putting our phones away. Or taking a shower. Or honestly, taking a shower and shaving. Well, you mentioned getting a haircut, and I want to ask you about your current haircut. It looks pretty fresh, honestly. When you walked in, I was like, you did not look like that one said that. Hey, you got a fresh cut for this podcast. I did. Hey, you did. I knew it. Wait, really? It was for this. Oh, God.

I got it yesterday. You got business in the front, party in the back. It's a mini mullet. I like it. I don't like that word too much, but yeah, I did. I did it. You're like channeling Theo Vaughn energy. Do you know who Theo Vaughn is? No, but Theo. He's like the funniest podcaster. Thank you for that. It would be a dream. No, do not say he's channeling Theo Vaughn. His haircut looks so dope. He's going to look so cool. Theo Vaughn's a cool, he's a really cool guy. It's a compliment. Thank you, Matt. Theo, if you're watching this, we'd love to have you on our podcast. Okay, wow. Maybe we could be on it together, Theo, and...

I feel like you guys have had the worst luck. And I say this not only because of like what we just talked about, but like even meeting you in Hawaii, didn't know your past story, but like you guys got in a car accident. Like,

our last day and I'm like wow that sucks and then like you guys I think casually mentioned that somehow your water bill was like 10 how much money was it your water bill $2,000 for one month $2,000 water bill for one month which doesn't make any sense and we weren't even there but guys we were just gone this summer and we just got our water bill and it's bad again someone has to be going to your house and like using your water they have to be but that's we're talking like 100,000 to 150,000 gallons enough gallons

It's a challenge to fill up the Arizona Aquarium. Someone's coming up with a massive semi with a water tank and just filling it up for the Arizona Aquarium. Like every day? There is construction going on up the top of our street. So part of me is like... But we don't need to say... We don't need to...

We don't need to bring suspects into this. No, let's craft the code. Okay, true crime. This is now a true crime podcast. Welcome to the unplanned true crime podcast. Abby would love that. Abby loves true crime.

Something you guys mentioned too. We're talking about like expectation versus reality and that's part of grief. Like when you guys first got married, was there an expectation of how many kids you guys wanted to have? Was that a topic of discussion? And then like waiting however many years you did, like was that planned? Was that unplanned? Like how did that whole expectation play out? I feel like for me, everything was unplanned because –

We had never ever talked about how many kids we wanted or when. We kind of just went by our feelings of do we feel like it's the right time to start the process of bringing a kid in or what does that look like? So for me, I never had an idea of either of those things. Did you? Yeah.

No, I didn't either. I was really focused on my career, but I also knew that I would be a mom at some point and I really wanted that, but I didn't have the set number. But I will say that I always thought that we would have more than one. And now, you know, what our life looks like now is just very different than you grow up thinking that it would. But also there's still so much joy in it. And like, there's so much joy.

Just love in it that we really fought for that where what we have feels really special and Also, there's a lot of grief that goes along with it. You know, I just thought of an analogy I never had before you know like when there's a really big wave That comes and just smacks you and knocks you on your butt. Yeah, and then you're like, oh

Whoa, dude. That was probably you. Yeah, I would say that. That's something I would say when I'm surfing. Gnarly. So you get smacked, you get a ton of water in your ear, you choke on it a little bit, and then all of a sudden, it's calm. Yeah. And you're looking around and you're either on the beach or you're out in the water, and it's not the same as it just was. But in that moment...

Of the wave, you feel like you might die. Yeah. You're scared. You don't know how big it is. You don't know how many there are going to be. And for me, that's what it's been like. I feel like I just got smacked over and over and over. And then all of a sudden it was calm. And then other waves that I learned how to ride started happening too. Like when we got pregnant, well, Ashley got pregnant again after...

some failed infertility treatments a year and a half after the loss and then it was just like the beginning of this incredible peaceful joyful hopeful like so much hope for the first time in a long time experience and experiences for me and today I just she's 15 months old and I still look at her every day and I'm just like

How are you real? You're here. How are you ours? How are you here? How are you so cute? And it still doesn't really make sense, just like the other stuff didn't make sense. But now it's just the opposite of what it was. And it's really been, it's been a nice relief, I guess we could say. It's been a good welcome change to be able to have the peace, you know? I

I remember when we met you guys, eventually you opened up to us and said that you were taking time off from like the infertility treatments. And then you started to try to convince us to move to Arizona. That was kind of your Hawaii trip, right? Yeah. That was why you guys were in Hawaii. That's how we met you guys when we were like, that's so weird that we met in Hawaii. You guys were on a month long trip there and then we were living there for a year. Crazy how that all happened. But then you're like, Hey, come visit us in Arizona. So we, we go to visit you guys in Arizona and,

We played Catan. We played a lot of Catan. You won every game. Well, you guys got us crumble cookies. We had never had crumble cookies before you guys got us. Were we your first crumbles? Yes. And you got us the Fruity Pebbles flavor. That they don't have anymore. And they never have anymore. I'm so upset about that. I wish they'd bring it back. I bet you they'll bring it back after this.

But we're on a hike in Sedona. You guys were doing the most to try to convince us to move here. You're like, we're going to go to Sedona. We jam-packed the trip. We're going to bring you guys a crumble. You guys brought us to every best thing in Arizona to try to convince us to move. I think it was a flower child. We went and looked at houses. We still have the vlogs of us, I think. Oh, yes. Oh, my gosh. We need to revisit. This is so cute. On our YouTube channel, we have the vlog of us. Did you fall in a cactus, I think? Yeah, it's like Abby fell. I fell in a cactus. You did when we were on the Cathedral Rock. It was like Abby fell on the cactus. That makes it sound like a cactus.

worse than it was. If you go to our YouTube channel, you can watch these vlogs of us with Mike and Ashley. Abby fell in a cactus. We did this like thing called slide rock and like went down a natural water slide. We looked at houses in Arizona with Mike and Ashley. So this is like all on our YouTube channel from two years ago. That's crazy that we have that documented. Wow.

That's really cool. That is really cool. Anyway, back to what I was saying though. In Sedona, we're on a hike and you guys or Ashley was like, I'm not feeling good. What was that hike? Devil's Bridge? Yeah, it's called Devil's Bridge. And it was really hot out and the sun. And so this is a year. It was just a little over a year of me going septic. So I was like...

Okay, because, you know, it took a long time for me to physically just even come back to life. So I was like, okay, maybe I'm just pushing it a little too hard, but I'm really out of breath. You guys kept having to slow down. I also, Matt and Abby are also like 12 years younger than us, by the way. Which I know you can't tell by looking at me. How old are you guys? I'm 38. And by 12, she means... You're 38? Oh, you just turned

turned 38. I did. Wait, did I miss your birthday? Mike, I'm so sorry. No, I don't think you did. When was your birthday? We told him happy birthday. I think you did. Wait, I did? I think you told me happy birthday. Okay, I feel like the way you're saying that just made it sound like it was yesterday and I totally forgot. It's okay. It's today. I'm 36. I'm definitely more than 12 years older than Abby. You're 14 years older than Abby. That is crazy. I love it so much. You were 14 when Abby was 14.

That's so cute. But here we are on your couch. Actually, I don't think about it. Like, I feel like, well, you guys are definitely like the older, wiser. Like, you're definitely wiser than us. You've lived a lot of life compared to us. So, but I think that's why our friendship is so cool. Mike is closer in age to your mom than he is to you. I can't do math like that. Let's just move on. But anyway, but you were pregnant. She was pregnant on the hike. I remember being on the hike and you guys were just gassing us. And I'm like, I can't keep up. I'm like,

Okay, I didn't really feel like I was as old as I am. When you say us. Okay, me. Thank you. He was behind me. Keep up with me. I was doing good. But I was like, I really can tell our age difference right now. Like, I didn't feel like I was this old. But now being with them and they're so young and full of energy, like, I guess I am as old as I am. You were like, are you tired? I was like, no. No.

was totally okay but me anyways so then I was pregnant but we didn't know that I was pregnant yeah and so then after when we told you that we were pregnant I remember you told me we were at my grandma's condo and we didn't know it yet but we got pregnant one month after that I know it was like the best thing ever it was that same trip we visited you guys and then we made this like long trip out of it we went to Europe and we made our baby in Europe on our cruise I'm telling you

baby in our house i thought you were about to say we went to your trip or we went to your house made the baby there we can see it's griffin in your guest bedroom well well that would have been that would have been an even better story i've heard people telling people that story like they're like we were actually staying at your house i'm like what that's so funny don't i would hide away all you was conceived on thanksgiving matthew james let's just move on not at your parents house huh

Let's not talk about that. Okay. Something extra to be thankful for. Hopefully my parents watch our podcast. That's like so funny. They totally just saw that. Hey, mom and dad, how you doing? You guys are both blushing right now. Make sure that you leave a review for the podcast, mom and dad. And share this podcast with a friend. I'm going to throw a game. What were we talking about? Oh, you were pregnant. And that's why I was slow.

But yeah, that was very unexpected and like the best unexpected thing ever because we had been paused of trying to get pregnant, trying to... Oh, we were doing IUI treatments and the hormones that that does on your body. I was like, I just need... I need a break. I need to figure out. And it was during that time actually that I also decided that I was going to go back to school to get my master's in mental health and wellness with an emphasis in grief and bereavement because...

I just knew that from what we've been through personally, that professionally, I was like, you know what? I see people differently now and I know I can help in a different way. And so this, it was a month after I decided to go back to school, which was a really big commitment that we ended up getting pregnant. What described that feeling, finding out that you guys are pregnant after everything that you'd been through? Well, also I, I,

I feel like it's not talked about a lot, like struggling with infertility after having gotten pregnant and like, and after a loss like that. And then pregnant again. There was a lot of emotions. And like, there's so much too to your story that we're not even talking about. So like, I can't, I can't imagine like just the, the relief maybe of finding out you're pregnant after all of that. But complicated. But it was complicated. Cause I was so excited. Yeah.

And that very same day after the pregnancy was confirmed, we were so excited. The very first thing I did was I went and I saw my therapist because the fear that comes for, and I'm going to speak for myself, but I also know because I've heard, heard from so many other women who are pregnant after loss or infertility, the anxiety that that brings because the

you've already been through the worst thing. Being pregnant again after loss was one of the hardest things mentally that I had to go through because every day was, is my baby gonna be okay? Is my body gonna do the same thing? Am I gonna lose her again? Up until we were bringing her home, I had this insane fear and in fact,

I'd be up some nights not being able to sleep, just sobbing. - Most nights. - And he would just be holding me and we would put on meditations, we would put on calm music. - Affirmations. - We would be praying affirmations. Like I did the most mentally to get through those nine months. And the infection that I had the first time was back. So I was on daily antibiotics. I was being monitored twice a week. We had so many appointments. - You had to have a progesterone shot every week. - He had to give me a shot in my butt every week. - That I had to give her sometimes.

And it was just, it was hard. So it was like this beautiful, joyful thing that was finally here. And it was so difficult at the same time. Can I add something really quick? Yeah, totally. Ashley is a very extraordinary person. That's really nice of you. You're a really good guy, by the way. I just want to say that. I think you're awesome too, Ashley. But I think Mike's like a really, really good guy. I'm married up for sure. Mike wasn't done. Sorry, I didn't want to ask you, Mike. Gas me up, babe. Gas me up.

Ashley is an extraordinary person. She's also just like a lot of people too. The fear, the anxiety, she has that. She still just one step at a time gets through it because she does the work and sits there with it to figure out how.

She talks to people who are more experienced than her. She talks to others who are similar to her in the situation to piece it all together. And that is one of the reasons, one of the reasons why she's so extraordinary is because she has a way of understanding it all. She doesn't talk a lot.

But she processes everything and then when she does talk it's this beautiful story and explanation and understanding of the way that something is because she has a way with words that allows people like me to actually understand what's happening. It's not convoluted. It's very precise and intentional. And so all of this that was happening

A lot of it she just keeps in there. Yeah. We'll talk about it occasionally. She decompresses a lot. We watched a lot of shows. A lot of The Office got us through that with pregnancy. I like your office socks, by the way. You got to show those off to the camera. You have office socks on? Mike is wearing World's Best Boss. No free feet videos. No. Not for... Well, it's because... I'm showing my feet. People hate that. Sorry. She...

This is one of the reasons that I look up to you because your ability to just not just get through it, but really thrive after. I've never really seen anybody do that before. And I just wanted to I wanted to say that because it's really important that you understand how awesome of a job you have done. Thanks. And really like.

it you didn't have to you don't have to be where you are doing what you're doing right now but you've you've chosen to and it's really inspirational to me to see that so thank you that's nice i i feel like all of us right all every single person is going to go through hard things and

We have two choices. One is it just swallows us up forever and ever. And I lived that way for a long time. That was all I could do. The choices that I had the ability of making like in the acute grief was, okay, I need to get out of bed. I need to feed myself. I need to shower.

okay, I'm going to get back in bed now. Right? Like that's all you can do when it's so acute. But then after a while, I started feeling like I had more choices and I could not wake up one day when I'm 80 years old and having looked back on my life, regretting it because I was too sad to ever participate in it. And so it's,

Brought on this new relationship with me with grief because they used to be so afraid of grief and and for a while we would do everything we could to not feel it or to run from it or to try to mask it or avoid it or to numb it with other things and I decided what if grief was something that could teach me like what if grief actually is here to become my teacher and I could learn from her and

What would that make of my life? And that has entered a really hard but beautiful journey where I can start finding words and like reasonings behind what I'm feeling. And then that means it's the same for why other people are feeling their feelings, too. And it's brought this connection between other people that.

In the beginning of my grief, I felt so lonely in and I don't feel lonely anymore. Hey, real quick, if you could leave a review for a podcast, we'd really appreciate it. And we want to give a shout out to someone very nice that left us a review. Yes, this is from Alana. She gave us a five-star review and said, oh, sweet Howards, I've been a silent follower

I love you.

What a testament to your character and beautiful heart for others. I love hearing the way Matt talks and listens to Abby. You are a safe space and show such strength in the ways you love and serve your family. Thank you both for being a light and encouragement to so many people. I'm praying for you guys as you navigate this time. Love y'all. Alana. Alana, thank you so much. That was really, really sweet. So nice.

nice. I think it's cool to read the reviews for you guys because it shows that like, I don't know, sometimes we're just recording these podcasts and like it feels one-sided. Yeah, we're just looking into a camera and it's like we forget that there's so many people that are connecting with this and it means a lot that you guys are resonating with what we're saying and it feels good too to know that

by keeping it real with you that you're appreciative of that. Cause we do get vulnerable on here for sure. Yeah. You guys have made such like a safe and encouraging space for us. So just know that that does not go unnoticed. So we really, really appreciate you guys' love and support. And, um, we appreciate you guys leaving reviews. That really means a lot. Yeah. So thank you. Now back to the episode. It's really incredible how you've taken your grief and then been incredibly vulnerable, but then also your education that went into it. Like, um,

To create this platform that you have like on Instagram and through speaking engagements and now your new podcast, which is the Healing Her podcast. Like it's really incredible how you've, like Mike said, you didn't have to do that. Like you could have, you know.

kept that to yourself and that's totally valid for those that want to go through that but you've also like you said used that to teach you something and then been such an incredible benefit to other people through that and through your platforms well to speak about like your grief does that is that something that like brings you healing when you talk about it and like to speak about the past

Because I'm like, I'm the type of person where like something bad happens to me. I'm like, I want to forget about it. I don't want to talk about it. I just want to like forget it's there, which like I'm sure there's probably like a, there's a healthy way to do that and definitely like an unhealthy way. I've probably done both. But for you, does talking about the past like empower you or like does it help to like remember? Like I know I've noticed too from social media, you guys, you know, talk about Jace and like remembering him. Like does that give you hope like knowing like,

hey, even though this was like really hard, I want to remember and I don't want to forget about these hard things that we've been through. Yeah.

Jay specifically, I don't want to forget him. I never could forget him. But I feel like right now in my grieving process, there's a process of grief that a lot of people don't talk about, but it's called making meaning. And it's when your past, the things that you have been through can start adding value to your current life, not in a way that is ever worth the cost of what was lost, but

but in a way where you can find meaning and connection with other people. And I think for me, that's what's been really healing for me, not necessarily sharing my story, but being able to find connection with others and then being able to use the things that I've learned to help other people. Like the amount of messages that I get from women every day who have just felt so alone,

but then they see something that I've posted in the community or that other people have posted in the community and they're like, okay, I'm not alone. I can get through this. These are tools that can help me. That's why I continue to share because I believe...

I believe that healing is accessible and available for everybody. And I want that for them because I know how painful it is to not ever think that your life is going to be worth living again. And Mike, a question for you is like, as the husband seeing Ashley go through all of this, you're also experiencing it with her. And I'm sure this had a big effect on your marriage. I was listening to your podcast episode that you guys released, the two of you talking about your marriage and, and just how,

There's something that you said that I really related to, which was, I feel like I'm, you mentioned on your podcast or on Ashley's podcast, I feel like I'm losing my wife or like, I feel like I don't know you anymore. And like that resonated with me because with Abby and I being together seven years, I've definitely said those words too. And we've definitely been through times in our marriage where it's like, are we going to make it out of this? Like, it just seems like everything is so hard. And so I'm,

I'm if you're open to sharing i'm curious like when that moment was and how you guys got out of that It was a lot of moments same The most important thing that I have learned from marriage Is you both have to make the decision to continually come back together? And press forward if you're on the same page that way then I believe that most everything can be pushed through and and we'll just say

We'll say most because I don't want to get into things that I think can't be. But as long as you're on the same page and you do try to come together, like we have arguments. Yes, we do. There's been words. We guys argue? Especially over a parking spot. Really? Is that the argument? And what to eat for dinner. No, there's been more serious things. That is true. We're human beings that have flaws and our characters are not perfect and we try our best, right? It's crazy to me how the topic of kids...

causes so much controversy. I don't want to, I mean like kids, having kids is amazing, but it's like, it's crazy how like kids in your marriage, like has been a major part of your story and ours too. Like in Hawaii, like,

we were debating on like if we were going to start having kids and then we did and then it was really hard and then we got pregnant by accident and then like or unplanned like we obviously are so happy to have two anyway I'm like on a tangent well you're learning because you come into your marriage the two of you right and that's where your life and your world has been centered around the two of you and all your all of our time and attention when it's just us two it's like

That's all you're getting and receiving is from each other. And then you enter into these new little humans who require everything from you. And so now that attention is being directed elsewhere. And then people can feel like they're being forgotten about. There's nothing. And that was one of the things that you brought up. Mike had told me, I just want my wife back. And it was my energy for him was non-existent anymore as I was trying to get through the hard stuff and...

that can happen though in marriage for so many reasons. And it's so hard. And I feel like people don't really talk about it because like, it's hard talking about the hard parts of your marriage, right? - Something that I think the exact quote was, "I just want my wife back." And Matt literally said that to me post having kids.

because there's something about being pregnant like it literally changes you like going through pregnancy and then being a mom or like whatever your journey is like it literally changed like the chemistry in my brain like I was like I can't even think about you right now like you're the least of my worries like my brain can only think about like right now I can hear Augie crying in the background like oh I know I could feel you like wanting to wrap up the podcast because you can hear your baby crying so you're like oh my god it's just like I feel like I don't

I don't know how to manage that after having a kid. Can I just validate you for a second, Abby? Because first of all, you had a baby like 13 months, 14 months ago, Griffin. And now you, and you were breastfeeding and all those hormonal changes and postpartum. And then you got pregnant again. And now you're back into the postpartum. But I just want to validate that because that is so much. And, but this postpartum period isn't going to be forever, but.

what is so cool because I was like, I have to know why my brain feels so different. Literally your brain is doing exactly what it was designed to do to give everything to your baby to keep him alive. Like there are hormones and, and parts of your brain that physically change the second you get pregnant so that

because it's nature's way of being like okay we're gonna keep this baby alive and so of course you're feeling all of these things like you're literally in it right now so and i know it's so hard and can be so hard on the marriage but i just wanted to tell you that that you're doing such a good job you're doing everything you are you're awesome that you're so i love your brain is like you're just doing everything that your brain was created to do but that's also why it's hard because postpartum brain is like a real thing because they get everything that you

That you have. And you know, you're totally validated to feel the way you do too. And it's not that Abby's doing anything wrong. She's doing her best. You are too. What you guys are doing right now with two babies under a year and a half, under 14 months old, that's very challenging. Regarding though, like, I just want my wife back. I'm not a therapist. But when you say that, the first thing that comes to my mind is, you're not going to get her. Mm-hmm.

Ouch. Old Abby is gone. But you have a new version of her. The core of her is still there. Yeah. And this is even a more beautiful, whole, complete version of that old Abby. She has to keep growing in order to do the things that she needs to do.

So I've and I can say that to you because I've literally felt the exact same way that you have Yeah, if she was the same she wouldn't be able to do what she needs to do now Yeah, so you just look at her and say and I know you'll do this because you're a very thoughtful guy You're gonna look at her and say I really love about you this you're doing this now And I really love that and you'll you find new things to love but the core of who she is is never gonna change I love that and

She'll still give you attention. She'll still give you what you need.

But just remember, like, you have to make a mutual decision to just keep coming together. And, like, that's, for me, that's what the difference maker has been. That's really cool. That is really cool. I want to talk about, like, the happy ending to your story. Like, when I was wrong in that I thought it was finding out you were pregnant. I didn't realize, obviously, me not going through that. I didn't realize all the heartache that came with, oh, we're pregnant now. Here's all these other problems that we're about to face. But, like, where...

Now looking back, where did you find redemption and hope? How are you guys doing now? Yeah, explain where you're at now. Every single morning when my baby comes in or I go and get her, hearing her say, Mama. Mama. And I'm just like...

How is this my life right now? There's just so much joy right now in this season and like being able to have the three of us together and this little human that has healed so many parts of me, but also that I can show up as myself.

completely her mom because I did the work before she came and so I don't have to transfer that on her or have her fill this role of like being the thing I needed to heal me I feel like because I'm able to give her my whole self that it's just created this really beautiful dynamic and I just feel like we always are like how is this our life right now but it's been so fun and so so special I think that that's important to say like

She wasn't the one who healed everything. Like we had to do a ton of work individually and as a couple before we were ready to have her here, I think. But she has added just so much happiness that has been amazing. And she has helped in the healing, but it's like the baby isn't the healer, right? Nor should they be, but I'm also such a different mom now than I would have been in

in a way that I think is better and more of what she might need throughout her life because I can understand different things just differently than before. But yeah, all that to say, we're just, we're so happy right now. I think seeing you, Mike, become a dad, it was just cool to see

this flood of like pictures and videos that you'd send to us. Like, look, it's Annie Rae, like eating this and like, she's doing, now she can roll over and just like, it was so cute. Yeah. Like it was, it was just so sweet to just see you light up like that. Like I, I just knew from knowing you guys that you wanted that so bad and it just made me really, really happy to see you as parents. Thanks. Um, was that, was that day, the day of Annie Rae's birth, was that a really special day? Yeah.

It was so special. And I will just say that everything leading up to that point had been so traumatic. And I feel like, you know, you hear a lot of traumatic birth stories. And so I wasn't sure what to expect with her birth. I just wanted her here safe. But giving birth to her that night was one of the most special, just like quiet, sacred, beautiful experiences ever. And to be able to participate in that and like,

I just, I'd say you did a little more than participate. You were, you were the main character, but just to be like the vessel in which she came into the world. And, and for me and my body to experience that after having gone through like so many other hard things, um,

Man, that night I kept asking him and the nurses and my doctor, am I dreaming? Is this real? Like everything just felt like this cloud of just peace. And yeah, it was, I wish I could bottle that feeling up forever because it was incredible. That's, I just, I love that. I remember getting pictures of her. We were like, she's so perfect.

Hey, I got to say what you guys told, the excitement on your face when you told me that you, or you guys told us that you were pregnant. It was so fun because I think it was, okay, you guys told us that you were pregnant. And then like a few weeks later, we'd come and tell you guys that we're pregnant. And then your words, Mike, were, our kids are going to get married. They're going to watch this in like 30 years. Yeah. 30.

30. And then we're going to 30. Emphasis on 30. Wait. We never talked about the fact that you guys only dated for like two months. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold up, hold up. Wait, yeah. What a baby ring is that? We've got to go in here, Augie. We've got two minutes left. You guys dated for how long before you got engaged? I don't know. The first time we kissed was middle of November. We didn't kiss like on the first date. I waited.

very gently i waited i kissed on the first date so i waited um middle of november engaged on christmas married march 6th oh my gosh what if he rated that i will i always tell him first of all i love you i'm so glad we're married second of all i would never repeat that history again that is insane and if our daughter ever says that she's marrying a man after a month and a half the answer is no we are leaving the country with her and like not okay i'm so glad it

Wait, how many months was that from meeting each other to getting married? I had known who she was. I had known who she was, just hadn't met her for a couple of years. He saw a picture of me and fell in love, but I had a boyfriend. Oh, okay. You got my number first. You got my number first. But wait, from the first kiss to the wedding day, was that four months? This is terrible.

Oh my gosh. Three and a half months. Three and a half months from the first kiss to the wedding day. Well, they've been married 12 years now. I think it clearly works out for you guys.

So if Andy Ray comes up to you and says, hey, I met a guy. We're getting married in three and a half months. No. No. No. No hablo ingles. But it worked out for you guys. It worked out for you guys, though. It has worked out. It did. But I also tell him, I feel like if I was married to anyone else or anyone else's personality, that everything we've been through, I don't think we would have been able to stay together.

I feel the same. So it did work. We got lucky. But it doesn't always. And yeah, I think we got really lucky. We got really lucky. But I wouldn't repeat that history. But I'm glad like it ended here. That's your story. I would choose to marry you, but not again after that. The first couple years were, the first year was actually really hard because we were like getting to like actually know each other still. You know? You guys have overcome so much. You guys are still married after all that, which I think is incredible because I can't imagine going through all that together.

together, what would your advice be for someone that is currently in the midst of it? That's a really good question.

I don't know if I have advice, but what I want to say is that I promise you that this feeling that you have right now isn't going to last forever and that there is still so much joy even in the midst of the grief and there's still so much life for you to live that I just want you to keep doing the things every single day that allow you to get out of bed and to take care of yourself knowingly

knowing that there's a future version of you that is going to thank you so much for doing the hard stuff right now to get there. And I know you can't see that person yet, but it's going to thank this part of you someday. That's beautiful. Yeah.

Well, Mike and Ashley, thank you so much for coming on the Unplanned Podcast. Thanks for sharing so much. We got really deep today. That was really good. I'm sure what you guys shared is going to be very helpful for a lot of people. If you guys haven't already checked out their socials, you can find Mike and Ashley Lemieux on Instagram. And Ashley just launched her podcast.

Healing Her, which is really, really good. I just listened to the episode of you guys talking together. So definitely go check that out. And yeah, thanks for coming on, you guys. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Sweet. And as always, we say peace out to just end the episode too. Perfect. You got to just like bear with us on that. Are we singing it with you? Embrace the cheesy. I love it. Three, two, one.

- Peace out dudes. - America, we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. At Grand Canyon University, we believe in equal opportunity and the American dream starts with purpose. To serve others in ways that promote human flourishing and create a ripple effect of transformation for generations to come. Find your purpose.

at Grand Canyon University. Private. Christian. Affordable. Visit gcu.edu.