Jinger Duggar Vuolo and Jeremy Vuolo on Growing Up Duggar, Courtship & Baby #3
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When you leave everything that you've known and you sacrifice relationships over it, it's hard. I'm so sorry. It's fine. We got back from the honeymoon and they were like, are you pregnant? Are you pregnant? Are you pregnant? I was looking at her like, is this normal? And she's like, yes, in our setting it is. This is what's expected of you. I will look back at my childhood and say there were things that I definitely would have changed. The imbalances of kids raising kids is unhealthy. Kids can help out and learn responsibility in other ways. With Jim Bob, did he ask you questions about have you dated somebody before? I

You kissed me before. Oh my goodness. I had a 50-page questionnaire I filled out. Wait, you're kidding. It was actually a sheet. We sat down with Ginger Duggar Volo and Jeremy Volo from the hit TV show 19 Kids and Counting. As a Duggar, Ginger grew up following the cult-like teachings of the IBLP. Ginger unpacked her childhood in her new book, Becoming Free Indeed, which she said was one of the hardest things she has ever done. We talk about courting, wearing pants for the first time, to the time Ginger found her stolen diary on eBay for $100,000. All in today's episode. ♪

I wanted to open with kind of a funny question because I was listening to your book, Ginger, and something you mentioned was watching your first movie together on your honeymoon. Yeah. So tell me about that. Like that is so interesting to me because on our first date, we watched a movie together. That's awesome.

I love it. Yeah, I just, I didn't watch many movies growing up. And so pretty much any movie that Jeremy asked if I had seen, I was like, nope, I haven't seen it. So he thought it would be fun to like...

let's watch a movie. Like, cause I just never really did that with him. Yeah. And I knew it was like a movie that explained her life a little bit. So we turned on the Truman show and we watched that and I was like, oh my goodness, this is my life. It just was so crazy how, I think there are different dynamics to that movie that were not so closely aligned with my life, but so many things I can relate to just like

people looking into your life like you're in a glass bowl and they're just seeing like everything that you're doing. It was just wild. Like I just could not believe how similar that was to what my experience growing up. And Jeremy, when you first met Ginger, is that how you kind of perceived her life? You're like, she is living in the Truman Show. I mean, as I got to know her and like stepped into her situation in her world, that definitely came to mind because at first I didn't know much about her life and that experience.

And so I meet her, I meet her family, and then I kind of see their experience with the TV show and how it is like a glass bowl. Like it's like a fishbowl. So yeah, I mean, I just, I just remember thinking like the Truman show is obviously reflective of like the rise of reality TV. Yeah. And so, um,

her family being such a big presence in reality TV, you've got cameras in your face constantly. Yeah. And I think... You're brushing your teeth. Yeah. You're going to the store. And early on in like the early years, it was more, right? It was like less produced. Yeah. I mean, it was legit reality. Yeah. As you go on, like things start to be like, okay, they'll suggest stuff. Like, okay, maybe we can go on a date. Like you guys go on a date today, you know, once we were...

They were like, how about you guys go out and play tennis today? And so we said, that sounds fun. Let's do it. But after like 15 years of filming them, they needed more ideas of what to do. Whenever they had run out of normal life stuff to do. And when you were courting, did they allow you, like could the camera guy be the quote unquote chaperone or did you still need a sister or brother to be with you guys? Cameras weren't enough. Cameras weren't enough. Even though you got the hard evidence. Yeah. Yeah. We always had to have a chaperone there with us. Yeah.

Yeah. And that was an interesting thing about even like that purity culture was it was I think it played the rules, not the game. If you know what I mean, like it was so focused on like the formal rules of, OK, this is how you must have a relationship or conduct yourself that at points at times it missed the whole point of of what building a relationship is, you know. So that that was a wild ride with the chaperones and all that. But.

Yeah, I'll tell you this. Like with the cameras, she's so comfortable with cameras. Like I think sometimes Ginger's more comfortable behind a camera than she might be in normal life at times. Just because it was like, you know, obviously that's an overstatement, but like she grew up with it. Whereas I never got...

That comfortable where they would be like, we're on a date and you've got like three cameramen around you with a mic boom and a producer and they're saying cut and there's extras in the restaurant, you know, having a free meal. No. And then it's like, all right, have a meal. Talk about it. Talk about, you know, your first kiss. Talk about whatever, you know. And they would give us like talking points and so then you just walk through it. And it wasn't staged, but it was like prompts. So if they were not...

If we weren't giving them enough, we need a little prompt. Who were these extras that just happened to, you know... They would use them all the time. Just like if it was like a set dinner, then sometimes they would do that or put like a couple...

who would just come sit in the background at a couple tables. So we had our favorite restaurant in Laredo, which is where we, when we got married, we were living in Laredo, Texas. It's called the Border Foundry. And to this day, we have not found a restaurant in LA that's as good as the Border Foundry. So it was just this incredible steakhouse on the border of Mexico,

And so we'd go there all the time. But when we would film there, the restaurant owner would just have his friends come for a free meal. And so like they were stoked for that. That's probably such a fun party thing for those people to bring up. They're like, by the way, I was an extra on episode five of season 10. I have so many questions for you. So like, did you intend to?

like when you were growing up and starting to think about like getting married, did you like know you were going to pursue like a courtship type of relationship or was that something that, and how did you meet a Duggar daughter? Like how did that whole process come to be? Yeah. So no, I mean, I didn't grow up in the same setting as her, so I didn't even really understand the, I mean, I had heard the term courtship because I

Years earlier, there was like... Josh Harris. Josh Harris had a book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, that was like real popular amongst certain Christians. And so I'd heard of it, but we never had bought into that. So I really didn't understand the dynamics of what courtship was. And I definitely didn't think I would be dating and then marry a girl who's on TV or anything like that. So...

It was just pure providence of how I met her. And so, yeah, I didn't really have a conception of it. And here's the interesting thing, too, is like I had no idea who Bill Gothard was. I had no idea even the religious setting that she was in. So I just showed up because my buddy Ben Seawald, who married Jessa, is like, hey, come on out. You know, I'm with the Duggars at this conference in Texas. So I'm like, cool. And I'd been to conferences before. And so I stepped into that world.

And it was kind of like shocking, but initially just in kind of a pleasant way. I was just like, wow, look, everybody's super happy. And everybody dresses the same, which, you know, I immediately noticed like it was kind of like cookie cutter, but it was really pleasant experience at first. I was just like, wow, everybody has a ton of kids. And I had no idea like,

the theological foundations for that. The why behind it. Was it an IBLP conference? It was an IBLP conference, yeah. Can you kind of describe for those people that don't know what IBLP is, like, just like a nutshell what it is? Yeah, for sure. So IBLP, it was... Basically, that was like the...

that Bill Gothard started. And so Bill Gothard was this guy who came on the scene in the 60s and 70s. He was promising parents like a guarantee for success for their families. If you follow my teachings, my principles,

your life will be a success. Your kids will be a light to the nations. They will help people around them. They will turn out really well. And so with the sexual revolution happening at that time, there was a lot of people like concerned for their kids. They're going to get, you know, mixed up in bad stuff and, um, and drugs and all of that stuff. So they were like really concerned for their kids. And he said, I have the key. I have all the answers to life's problems. So just constantly,

come follow my teachings. So it started out where he had some good things to say generally, you know, he would like say, okay, if you follow these principles of authority, you know, submitting to the government, your, your parents, whatever, then your life will be a success. And so parents were like, this is great. Let's go.

And so they would send busloads of people there. He filled up massive stadiums full of people and it was a big deal. And so a lot of parents were so well-meaning and got mixed up in this. And the IBLP stands for Institute and Basic Life Principles.

And he would fill up these seminars and then they would take it back to their churches and start teaching or their communities and start teaching these principles. And then he would have like seminars that they could host in your area. And so that's kind of how it spread. And his teachings...

went to like even other countries and he had bill gothard would um He had like a headquarters where he would train students a lot of underage people went there as well Which caused problems all their story. It's a whole nother story So basically the whole thing was built upon one man in his teachings That were the answer to all of life's problems for you. And do you think your parents had these fears of oh my gosh? What if my kids?

take part in the sexual revolution and they, you know, start doing drugs. Like, do you think that fear that your parents had led them to fully, you know, follow everything this man said? Yeah, I can't speak for them and what they were thinking at that time, but I definitely will say a ton of parents were in that place. I think so many of them were really afraid because times were changing and

it all seemed so new that there was so much like rebellion around in their kids and they were terrified. And so I think that definitely drove a ton of families into these teachings and they were well-meaning, I think, to start out.

some families would step in for a little bit and see oh this is really bad and they would leave and other families the fear drove them to keep going yeah and some of the rules with IBLP it was like you couldn't listen to rock music right no no women couldn't wear pants I noticed your

You're not wearing a skirt today. Was that changing from the way you were brought up and changing from the way that you knew the world as a kid? Was that scary the first time you put on a pair of pants or chose, I guess, to wear makeup? I don't know. Was that a rule too? Makeup was fine in our house. That was something that was never like...

an issue, but definitely like a lot of those outward standards that were taught to us. Um, it is modesty being that you need to wear, um, skirts that fall below the knee. You can't wear sleeveless shirts. You can, you can, um, like if you have like a normal t-shirt, you're allowed to roll up your sleeves, but you can't buy a shirt that has the sleeves already off. It's kind of interesting. So it's like all these rules that don't make sense. Like the, the rock music is because you're going to call the demons into your life and

If you listen to it. So there was a lot of superstition in those teachings and it was really fear based and man made rules. And so whenever I realized, okay, I was going to the word of God. Jeremy really helped me a lot too, to like, he wasn't trying to change me for who I was even. But I think once he realized like, okay, this man is saying things that are not even in the Bible or,

Like, let's talk about it. Why do you believe this? And then it was very quickly like those things kind of like fell off once I realized, oh, this is not in the Bible. Jeremy had to go through the teachings like he had to go through 60 plus hours of Bill Gothard's teaching before we could get engaged. And so he was listening through that, which was actually super helpful because then it helped him to realize, oh, this is why you believe this is because he said this.

And so Bill Gothard would take like a verse of the Bible and then he would twist it and make it say whatever he wanted it to say and then make you make a vow to like commit to do that. So it was very like deceptive in the way that he taught. And so Jeremy kind of just like walking through those, those different teachings and,

we would pause the video and say, oh my, like, let's go back to that because that is not what the Bible actually says. It's totally silent on that subject. And Bill Gothard's making up a case for something that he wants you to do. And so all of those things, I think the fear that gripped me for so long fell off whenever I realized this man is not telling me the truth. And

And so I wanted to have the authority be the word of God, not just another man's words that he's just saying.

Yeah, it really helped me understand her because I stepped into that setting with her family. And I think like most people, you just go, oh, wow, they have a ton of kids and they do life this way. And when I started getting into the teachings, I started realizing like, oh, there's an underlying belief system that's driving this behavior. And ultimately, it was fear-based. It was this terror actually of God.

which isn't like a righteous fear of God, which is like this all filled reverential fear of God because he's God, which drives you to him. You know, the fear of God should draw us to love him and draw near to him. It was a fear of like, oh, if I screw up, I'm in trouble. So I have to have life sorted out perfectly from what I eat to what I wear, to what I say, to what I don't look at, which is why they were terrified of outside influences. It was like, if I hear these noises, I'm

I'm going to be infected. So it's like music out. If I watch these images, then I'm going to be infected. So if I have like a cabbage patch doll in my house, then it could bring harm upon me. Very superstitious. So it was superstitious fear. And that's, I mean, you know, from a biblical perspective, that's just like radically unbiblical, but it helped me understand like, oh, that's, that's where ginger is coming from.

And so as I'm falling in love with this girl and then like understanding her mindset more and more, we were able to connect on those things. And I did just start to see like she was a woman who is committed to the Bible, like genuinely love Jesus. So when we were able to like realize and discover who Jesus is, the fear based superstition just kind of fell off.

Out of curiosity, what were some of those specific beliefs that come to mind or teachings that Bill Gothard had that you guys were like, wait, let's talk about this. And then you're like, we're not aligned. Yeah. That's what he has to say. Because you literally spent 60 hours learning about all this. Yeah. I'm super curious too. So, okay. So one of them would be how Bill Gothard would use the Bible. He would use it like a buffet line. So if there was like one verse, and actually a lot of people do this.

He sees one verse and he goes, oh, I'll use that. And then he'll just build a whole system around it. So for instance, he would go to the old covenant blood laws and Israel had all of these blood laws that he gave to the people and he had reasons for them. He had reasons for people treating animals humanely. And he also had a theological underlying reason for the reason being

is such a theme in the Bible is because it's where life is. It's called the lifeblood. And so he was showing just how sinful their sin was. And ultimately, all those blood laws in Leviticus are pointing to Jesus who spills his blood to pay for us. It's like the beautiful, sacrificial,

most basic element of the gospel. And so there's like a theological profundity to it. Well, Gothard would go to blood laws and start telling people like what they could and couldn't do like a husband and wife or like wild, like, Oh yeah, you need to abstain from being together over these times. And like, he was a guy who was never married, never had kids of his own. And here he was as the expert on what you are to be doing as a couple and

And it was like wild. Like in reference to menstruation. Yeah. Oh, so like a woman's on their period and it's like, you're on your period, you can't be together. You have to be away. Yeah. And to be away. He literally taught no sleeping together. But I mean, not in separate rooms. He got into the specifics of like how many days you have to wait and when you could, when you couldn't. It was wild. And after you have a kid, you need to wait this long. I remember hearing that. And he would teach that like in his seminars. Wait, wasn't it different if it was like you had a boy and a girl? A boy versus a girl. Yeah. Yeah.

So I remember hearing that and going, I wouldn't, you know, that Leonardo DiCaprio meme where he's like, whoosh,

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I was like, he's missed the entire point of why God was doing this. Like he's missed the story of the Bible. He's looking at these leaves, reading them out of context, and he's just making up all these rules. He's missed the point of what God is doing with his people. So then we would go to like a book of, like the book of Galatians or the book of Hebrews, and we would sit there and we would talk about it. And she would literally be like, oh, like, whoa, I've never seen this before.

another thing too was like adoption. Like, Oh man, it was so sad to see because he had such a warped view of like almost, I mean, there were some families within the system who had adopted, um,

but he was so afraid of you being able to bring other kids into your home because what about their generational curses that they might have upon them? And so you don't want to bring that child into your home because it could be a disturbance to your family and you might not know what things they're bringing with them into their, because maybe they were grew up in like a location where there was, um,

you know, some voodoo worship going on and maybe you don't know what their grandparents were into. And so if you bring that kid into your home, then your home could be like almost cursed because of it. So it was really harmful. So something like, I wanted to say there was a point in your book that really shocked me. And you mentioned how Bill Gothard taught about this woman who had a ship painting in her house.

And she lost her family in a shipwreck. I don't know if that was just a made-up story or a true story that he had actually heard of. And he taught of how having a painting of something could change your future and could make your family die in a shipwreck. Yes, totally. And here you are, a young girl, hearing these things. That's terrifying. I just can't imagine being a kid...

told that a painting in your room can affect... Oh my gosh, when I was a kid, I used to do some weird stuff. I was into skateboarding. I would wear these t-shirts that had bloody snakes on them and skulls. My parents were terrified. They're like, my son's going to become goth and would probably listen to a lot of rock music.

- Look at you in your neutrals. - I know, I wanted to dye my hair black. - I think I'm safe, that's crazy. - Well I was like, I was really into that, I thought it was cool, right? Like I was just a little boy and so, man, I would have been screwed if that was true. - Oh big time. - Yes, for sure. - But see, that's the thing is like, you did have a generation of kids raised in that environment, terrified of everything. They're just terrified of like, what's this gonna do to me? Is God gonna strike me down?

And he would even teach like there would be things that were out of your control that you weren't aware of and so hard hardships like this is a story he told about a guy who was a business owner bought a strip mall to invest in and he allowed a store to be in there and it had a liquor license and he wasn't aware of it but there was a liquor license and everything starts going bad in his life. He's losing money, unhealthy, like terror striking him. He's going, what's happening? And then he finds out there was a liquor license.

And so he gets rid of it and everything goes good. Well, that mindset is so superstitious. And you're constantly like looking around the corner like, is God going to strike me down for something I'm not aware of? Yeah. It's terrifying. It really is. And it affected a lot of the ways that I looked at the world around me.

And I was, I definitely lived in that fear for so long. Even if I was going out to like play brim ball with my siblings, I wouldn't want to go because maybe I had this feeling I was supposed to stay home and read my Bible. Well, if I go out, am I going to get killed in the car accident? Like I had that fear and it was, it was something that until I was able to realize, okay, this isn't true. This is not based in the Bible. This is not how God sees me.

then that like produced freedom in my life where I could see, okay, I am not going to be defining like what, what my destiny is going to be based on what's around me and what decisions I make like that. But as far as Bill Gothard is concerned, like props to him because that's a great way to keep people entrapped in your scheme.

Like if you can enslave them to the fear of what you're saying, they have to keep coming back because you've got the only answer. You're the only one who can have the answers. And he built his little kingdom. Yeah. And he'll have to answer to God for that. But as far as like a cult leader wants to go, like it's a good strategy to keep people entrapped in fear. And you see that pattern. That's why I think Ginger's book hit such a chord because so many people don't know who Bill Gothard is. But

But these same kind of lies and tactics are used by people in the name of religion all the time. And so you can honestly just like, you could even white out Bill Gothard's name, describe what he's done and put in a thousand other names. And so many people have experienced that. I'm so curious. Was there a time where something bad did happen to you where you maybe, I don't know, did get in a car accident or something happened and you were like...

That was it. Like I had that, I had that sinful thought and that caused that. Like, did that ever happen to you? That is a good question. I can't think of a time where it was specifically like that, but I think it was for me, it was more just this overwhelming fear. So I didn't ever have an instance where I can say like, oh yeah, I didn't think I was supposed to go and this happened. Like I can't think back to a time where that actually took place because

But I always had this looming fear above me whenever I would try to make decisions, just afraid that I would put myself in a bad place or something could happen. And I think going back to like my stepping into this world, I quickly realized early on like Ginger's view of God needs to be, needs to shape, like shift. She loved Jesus and knew Jesus, but had this kind of ad nauseum fear

reaction to this like God's gonna strike me if I'm not perfectly aligned and so as we would study the Bible together and she would see that the beauty of her acceptance in Christ where God looks at you if you're if you're United to Christ in faith

He looks at you the way he looks at his son. So if you've had a great week, he doesn't look at you any different. He looks at you the way he looked at you at the start of the week, which is covered in the righteousness of Christ. If you've had a horrible week, made terrible decisions, fallen into sin, he looks at you the way he looks at his son. And for so many Christians, they can miss that. And they really do think God is like,

Up there in heaven, you know, it's like, he loves me, he loves me not. He loves me based on your behavior. And the very gospel is when you're joined to Jesus in faith, you are covered with his righteousness. So literally you are seen and accepted based on him, not you. And when Ginger kind of got hold of that, it was like, I mean, she just like,

you could see the weight of coming off of her shoulders. And I think that's interesting because I think people that hear your story and your upbringing with religion might be surprised that you are still like...

consider yourself a Christian and, and like participate in that way. And I guess like speak to people that might have that train of thought. Yeah. I think that that's something that I've seen, even in a lot of my friends who grew up in the system that I did, a lot of them have wrestled with that because it's so difficult whenever you were raised in something that

has so many elements of truth on one side. And then at the same time, it's like really tough to like figure out what is true. So I've said like, I'm disentangling, um, instead of like deconstructing, there's so many who are just throwing their faith away. Um, never to like, you know, they're gonna like tear it down to the studs, never build it up again. Did you ever consider that? It was, so for me, I was somebody who loved Jesus, um,

And I knew that that was my only hope. And I knew that the word of God was true. And so whenever I realized that these teachings were so warped, for me, it was not an aspect of like, okay, I'm going to run away from all this because I already had that relationship with Christ. For me, it was like, I could see, okay, this is not true, but I know that the Bible is true.

I just need to pull out what was not true. What words they told me that were, they said, this is scripture. Bill Gothard would say like, okay, here's a verse of the Bible. This is what it says. Like man, man shall not live by bread alone. Right? So then he would take that verse and he would twist it and make it say like, okay, this

Therefore, like we actually do need this kind of bread. Like he would go back into exactly the opposite of what the verse said and say, we need this specific bread maker. We need to do this. So I would just take that verse and say, okay, that's throw that out.

That's not true what he said about having to eat wheat so many times a week. It's like, okay, no, we need to have a balance in this. What does God's word actually say? What was the context of this? When was it written? Who was it written to? So just going back and learning the Bible again from a foundation of God's word being the authority, not a man's words speaking into it, that disentangling process has been hard. There have been days where it's tough to work through all that, and it can be confusing at times, but it's...

It's also the most freeing because I know that God's word is true. And that is my foundation. I'm not going to put my trust in a man or anybody else. My trust is just going to be in Jesus and in his words that he said in the Bible. Obviously, you grew up in a household where you had 18 other siblings. So Jeremy, you must have thought, maybe I'm signing up for this. Maybe I'm going to end up having 19 children. Who knows? Did you think that growing up that you would have 19 children? Yeah. So it's very interesting. That was something that

I was always kind of like a little bit afraid of, but I was, I was never the one who was like, give me your kids. I'm going to go babysit your kids for you. Like some of my siblings are more geared that way. Yeah. And they're all about like watching everyone's kids, holding their kids. And I'm all for it. I just wasn't, I just wasn't, I was like, I will do the grocery shopping. I'll do all the laundry. I don't mind. Like give me the chores around the house. I love that. But I was not like, I don't know. I just didn't.

I wasn't doing that. So then I was really... I wanted to have kids. I just was like really afraid of the thought of like having as many as possible. But that was what was...

You know, just kind of assume that would be your, yeah, that was going to be it. I was going to get married and have a lot of kids. And so even on the show, if you watch the old shows, I'm sure I probably said multiple times, I'm just going to have as many kids as possible. They always ask us, you know? And so I just say it over and over, but like, I was afraid. I was so afraid to like, you know, to like think about that. So that's an interesting thing because one of the major issues I think

in that setting that she grew up in was they were always taught what to think but they weren't taught how to think so they weren't like she didn't ever actually have the option to like I was never taught to like challenge anything yeah and go through and go well what do I want to do yeah what's what does my future it was like no this is your future this is it this is what is this is where we're gonna go so yeah this is what it's gonna look like and my parents were like I will say like

I think it was the system that like brought a lot of that in. And so my parents like wanted us to like be able to do what we want to do, like hobby wise or whatever, you know, they like figure out what we're engaged in and like want to like come alongside us in that. But it also did provide a lot of cookie cutters within the system. And so you saw like kids just all wanting to do the same thing. Wow, this is amazing. You all have the same passions and hobbies because it was such a small box and

there was not what you could do. You can't like do drum lessons. It's like, that's kind of a no. It's like everybody does the same thing. You have four. Yeah, totally. And then even like having kids, that was, it was something that I, once I realized that, okay, I don't need to have as many kids as possible. I just felt like,

a massive weight off of my shoulders because I just thought like, this is, then kids can actually be, I think it can be a sweeter situation where they're coming in when they're like, when you're like, Oh, we'd love to have a kid now. Let's, let's have a kid. Um, and yeah,

instead of like the burden of kid after kid you know I'm like just getting over having a baby and I'm having another baby sometimes that happens but it's like it's not a burden I saw so many moms in that setting who were just beat down um they were having child after child they were on bed rest they were so sick the younger siblings were having to like care for the kids for the nine months that the mom was sick with the next pregnancy and then as soon as she was done

Three months later, she gets pregnant again, and it just happens perpetually until she can't have kids anymore. And the issue isn't like kids. Kids are incredible, right? No, kids are great, and they are a blessing, but it's like everything in its right place. Yeah, and it was the twisting of scripture to tell every woman, this is what you must do regardless. Oh, sorry. No, you're good. Did you feel like you missed out on your childhood because you were spending all this time having

having to help raise your other siblings, right? Like my perspective now is like, okay, I don't want to look back too far and try to like pick apart what I wish I would have had or all of that because I have to look at my life as a whole now moving forward and say, okay, there were things that I definitely would have changed in some of that. But like I said, I wasn't one of the ones who was like watching everyone's kids. I had two of my siblings who I would take care of.

and help with their schoolwork, their music practice, help them get their chores done, stuff like that. And I think that

at that system, it is imbalanced. And I think that parents should be, you know, they should take care of their kids. If you have them, you should take care of them. And kids can help out and learn responsibility in other ways, but maybe not in the motherly aspects of like what moms or dads should be doing. You know, you have all these, the imbalances of like kids raising kids. I think that I saw that a lot in the system. And I think that that is unhealthy because

And so I will look back at my childhood and say, okay, yes, there could have been things that have changed. Like we would never do organized sports because we were afraid of influences around us. And so we would do a family sport in the community with just people from the community would come and play and we would all play that together. And I loved it. And so some of that like things that maybe we missed out on was like,

the kids would not know if they're athletic, you know? Cause like we're playing sports in the backyard, but like you're not on teams. You aren't learning that. You aren't learning what you can actually do. And so I think that being put in that box

That was something that I was, you know, looking back, I'm like, oh, I wish I would have had maybe more opportunities to explore what I was really interested in in that way. Like, you know, so. And when you were married, but you weren't having kids right away, were you guys getting questions from your parents? It was like we got back from the honeymoon and they were like.

And I was like, I was looking at her like, is this normal to just be asking like, are you pregnant? Are you pregnant? Are you pregnant? And she's like, yes. And our setting is like, and it was from like her siblings or like friends. They were like, they would ask us to all the time. And it was like, Oh, the producer, every time we sit down for an interview, are you guys pregnant? Are you pregnant? Or like, how did that make you feel? Well, it made me feel, she was used to it. I think we're expecting it. I,

I expected it because that's just what you do in those settings. I was like, Hey, get out of that aspect of our life. Like, why are you asking us about that? But for me, I was like, okay, no, this is just what people do. Like this is the, this is what's expected of you. Almost. This episode of unplanned podcast is brought to you by Huggies skin essentials. Can we just give it up for Huggies please? Can we just rejoice? Baby butts rejoice.

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and like people thinking, oh no, maybe they think that we can't have kids. And like that could, that's honestly probably where a lot of people would think. Like, you know, if you grew up in that setting, you're gonna have kids right away. Otherwise, maybe you can't. And so, but realizing like, I think the further away

away from the system that I got, the more I realized, okay, I want to live my life to glorify God, but I don't also want to like be so much a people pleaser where I'm just like allowing everybody else to dictate what we should be doing as a family. And I think that that was a balance that I needed to find. It took me a while to get there. It took me so many years and there are still days where it's like really hard to like do your own thing.

But at the same time, it was what brought me the most freedom. And then also realizing like, okay, other people are watching. They're seeing how you're living your life. Like people from the system, they want to see, are you willing to do hard things and to step outside of that and do what you're convicted of, not just what you're told to do.

And I think that also provided room for other loved ones to like follow suit. To be able to like step outside of that system and think for themselves and not fear that they were going to be looked down upon maybe if they did something different. Or if they would see her and it's kind of like they're waiting for the lightning to strike. Yeah. And then they realize, oh, it doesn't. Because they're like, oh, they guys are good. It's not happening, you know, as many kids as like maybe everybody else is going to have. And so. Yeah.

Those things, I think they were so, there's so much fear that will keep you bound if you let it. Yeah. Well, did they like assume that you were like not able to have kids or did they, were they thinking, oh my gosh, they're using birth control. That's not okay. I don't know. We just didn't talk about it. We waited a year. Yeah, it wasn't super long. You're like, it's a year. It was just a year. So we just waited a year and then I was like ready. And my approach was just when she says, let's have kids. Cause I'm like, yeah, let's have kids. You know? Yeah.

But I mean now like Evie's Evie is three and a half. Yeah. And that's a lot of time. Yeah. Yeah.

We jumped into like newly married, but I still feel like we bypassed like the courtship thing, which would be very interesting to a lot of people because I feel like a lot of people navigate engagement, relationships like that. So what did that look like for the two of you? Oh, it was for me. It seemed, it seemed like it was going to be, you know, like more normal because like my family, all of them just did this courtship thing. But then when it comes down to where it's like, it's actually you in the courtship. I think even Jeremy being an outsider kind of,

coming in looking at it and we would talk through like okay are we gonna have my 10 year old brother there as my chaperone to be with us at dinner or in the car and

It was interesting. Once we were engaged, especially like, I think that's where I started to realize, oh, wow, we actually need time to talk about things that we need to talk about just us. And so if he came out to visit, we were long distance. He was in Texas. I was in Arkansas. So if he flew out to visit for a weekend, he would say, OK, I'm going to call you when I get home. Or like if he was

you know, even if we were like in person, we needed to talk. Cause your 10 year old brother's there. You're like, he doesn't need to hear this. You can't talk about that when you're about to get married. So we never, I never did the, the only chaperones we would use is like, we'd go on a double date or something. Cause I just wasn't going to do, I wasn't going to have a 10 year old kid with me. Like,

It was kind of absurd. Yeah, so just going to dinner. I was just like, you know what, Ben and Jess, do you want to go on a double date or something? Did this happen after you played professional soccer? Oh, yeah. So you'd been like, yeah, I'm sure, I don't know if you've traveled the world doing that, but you must have just been like a guy, just being a guy, and then you're like, okay, now I need a 10-year-old on my date with my girlfriend. So that wasn't going to happen. And he was pastoring a church at the time. I'm like doing marriage counseling. How old was he? He was 27. He was 27.

You were older than me when this was going on. So that was the thing. I would literally go from like pastoring a church, I'm doing marriage counseling, and then step into a setting where it was like those rules. And that's where I say it was like playing the rules, not the game. It was like so focused on the rules, missing the point of what we're doing, the objective here, which is like...

And I told her, honestly, and this is why I wouldn't be pro-courtship or anything. If I need, because the spirit behind it is good, right? Like, oh, you want to have purity and you want to really focus on each other and not get physically entangled. Okay. But if I really need these rules to keep me moral, I'm not a good dude. Like, don't marry me. Like, if the only thing keeping me pure and focused on her and loving her well is like a chaperone,

I'm not a good person. Like I need to work on self-control. So we saw through those boundaries and here's the deal. You can get around boundaries if you want to get around boundaries. Legalism and rules never accomplish. It looks like it's going to work, but it never does what it actually doesn't deal with the issue.

And so Ginger and I honestly looked at our courtship and said, we'll make the most of it. I wanted to obviously respect that. And so. Yeah, Jarek was so respectful, like coming into that setting. He didn't have like an attitude about him, which I think I really appreciated that. And I think he didn't even know all of what he was getting himself into. I always tell him, I'm like, he didn't know what you're getting yourself into when you stepped into our world. But he was, he was so good about like, okay, I'm going to jump through these hoops because this is like what's required of me.

And then, you know, we'll have our lives together. I want to ask how that even happened in the first place. Like, did you, because you guys met at a conference. Did you say, come back home and be like, mom, dad, there's this guy. Did you ask to court him? Like, how does that even work? Getting started in that. It was crazy. So whenever he showed up there, I met him at that conference. And it wasn't until later, like, how many months later was that?

several it was several December yeah so five or six months went by and he was talking to Ben and Jessa and you you'd visited like one other time came to our house in between then just to hang out with my brother-in-law because they were friends and he was like oh yeah I have some sister-in-laws you know my brother had my brother-in-law he's like I got a few and so yeah you have some to choose from here you go just take take your pick

So he took his pick and it worked out. But it was like, what happened was though, he signed up for a missions trip that we were all going on. Yeah. I started to like her and I'm like strategizing with Jessa. How can I get to know her? She's like, go on this missions trip because you have all these guys come and try to get to know these girls. Obviously there's a wall up because of the TV and all that. She's like, go on this missions trip. You'll get to know my family really well. And it was being recorded for the show.

No, that one wasn't. Oh, okay. No, that one wasn't. I don't think so. They had already filmed a lot of them. I don't think they wanted to go on that. So I signed up for that. And so that was Jess's kind of helpful strategy. And she's like, you'll get to see Ginger as well. Like for this, I think it was a week long. Yeah, we were gone for like two weeks. I think you only came for like the first part.

And so I went like, okay, I want to get to know her obviously better, but I also want to get to know her family and stuff. And so it was organic. It was as organic as it could be. It was really pretty chill. We were on like a big missions group with like, I don't know, 60 other people or so. We were able to just like be around each other on that trip away from like even filming and stuff, which is great. Less pressure that way. And it was awesome because whenever we came back from that trip, well, he had talked to my dad at the end of that trip. You can tell him about that.

Yeah, and I just expressed interest. And so he wanted to get to know me, obviously, which is understandable. Was that an...

like a high pressure conversation to enter into no i don't i don't think so i i just he probably saw it coming a mile away okay you know like it's like yeah you're talking to his daughter all this time yeah i think you came all the way yeah and he signed up like a week before the trip yeah and we had signed up like several months before he they allowed him to like come last minute i think jessa pulled so jessa was like we gotta get this guy on this trip

So he saw it coming, I think. So I just asked him, like, hey, I want to get up to an hour. And he was like, yeah, she's great. And I was like, I know. And he's like, well, you need to get to know me first. And what was that conversation, though? It was like a three-minute conversation. I remember it. Oh, pretty short. I would have thought it was like a long... Because you literally watched 60 hours of Bill Gothard's teachings. Well, no, this was later. That was later. That was later, yeah. So that was... Like Abby said, we got our timeline. We zoomed forward. So I asked Mr. Duggar...

And then he's like, let's get to know each other first. And then that's where him and I start talking. And he actually asked me soon after to start watching the Gothard stuff. Was it a VHS tape? Like, how did you get this? No, they had a website. It's streamed online. Yeah, it's streamed online. And was there questions afterward to make sure you actually watched it? Oh, yeah. We'd talk about it. Oh, nice. Yeah. We would talk on Friday mornings.

And chat about it. And at first, it was interesting because, you know, going back to the whole Gothard thing, I was just like, oh, this guy's got some interesting things to say. It was kind of philosophical. And I remember in one of our first conversations, Ginger and I talking about those, she asked me what I thought. And I went, yeah, he's not a Bible teacher, but he's got some interesting things to say. I think that's like my exact sentence.

And I think for her, she was like, what? It was really shocking. Because she thought he was the Bible teacher. This is the fact that he was the most amazing person. But at the time, he would... So that's what made Gothard effective was he had a cultural analysis which was accurate. It was the solution that got wonky. So he talked about the rise of humanism and secularism and you're just going, yeah, that's right. So those initial...

sessions i watched i would at times go oh that's a little interesting but there weren't like alarm bells going off you know yeah it wasn't until the further and you get to the teachings and with with jim bob did he ask you questions about have you dated somebody before have you kissed oh my goodness bro i had a 50 page questionnaire i filled out well you're kidding it was actually a sheet yeah so it was like how far have you been with a woman yeah everything every single question have you done have you smoked weed have you drank all those questions in there

What was the most bizarre one that was like, what is like anything that threw you off that wasn't expected on the sheet? Probably all of it. I think it started out like, do you have any debt? Oh,

Oh yeah. So it was financial. It was, it was moral. It was relationships. It was past history. It was family's history. Oh, it was view on finances, view on debt, view on family, view on kids, view on, I mean, it was like, was it provided by the LB, IBLP or did he create it? Somebody, I think somebody in the IBLP. Yeah. I think somebody did and they sent it to him. And low key, it was actually, it's like, I wasn't mad at it. Cause it's a great conversation. It seems really crazy if it's,

I mean, it was crazy. But I'm just saying, like...

It actually did end up on the flip side of it. It ended up producing a lot of conversation for us. Oh, yeah. It's great. Because I was able to kind of look at that and I was like, okay, I'm just going to look through this and see. Honestly, now that I'm thinking, I was about to be like, that's crazy. But when I'm thinking about this, I'm like, that's kind of good. Like if you're marrying somebody that has $200,000 of student loans, you might want to avoid that relationship. Just wait. If you guys have a daughter. That's a horrible thing to say. I mean, seriously.

Seriously, come on. If you're a teacher and you marry someone- You're going to be handing these out. You're making photocopies. Done. It's already done. We could have gone to school at Michigan, right? Where it was 60 grand a year and put all that into- That would have all been debt. And then here we have an arts degree. How do you make money with an arts degree when you have a hundred- What is that? 240 grand in debt? He's crunching numbers right now. Right? That's a quarter of a million dollars in debt. So here's the crazy thing. Yeah, I like that. So-

Like I said, the motivation for a lot of that was good. Because a lot of couples... This is what happens. Couples get involved physically. They get involved on superficial personality traits. Like, oh my goodness, we get along so good because we both love the same movies. And they actually go real serious, real fast with an intense relationship. And oftentimes never actually...

hit the reality of life and engage on the reality of things that are years down the road. But because it's such a superficially based relationship, they're not thinking permanence. They're not thinking long term. And so, you know, when you think about what a marriage is, when you're saying I do and you're saying those cute words, you know, in sickness and in health, well, in poverty and wealth. No, that's real.

And life is hard and life is difficult. And love is not a feeling first. It's a decision that results in feelings, but it's a self-sacrificial decision to commit to someone regardless of anything else. No matter what happens, I love you the way Christ has loved me, which means I love you in spite of your failures, mistakes, in spite of whatever life throws at us. I am choosing to love you.

That's heavy. And so people who go into marriages, and I do pre-marriage counseling all the time, people go into marriage not thinking about the basic foundational elements of life. And that includes finances, that includes moral decisions, that includes children or whatever else.

So to front load relationships with questions like that, I'm not saying like on second date be like, okay, let's talk about it. Maybe not 50 pages. That's a good motivation. And honestly, like I have two daughters. Like I'm putting those guys through the ringer. You know what I mean? Like I'm not going to just. Not like in a.

But it becomes like this formalized kind of like... And that's where purity culture, I think, went wrong. Yes. But it created... It's too formal at the beginning. Yeah. Which it kind of... That's the issue I think that I saw with it too is like it's super formal and there's so much pressure to like know if you want to like be in a courtship with this person before it's actually like known. And probably part of that was to...

I don't know. I mean, part of it was we were in the public eye. And so if you bring somebody around that you're talking to, you need to know right away, like, am I going to be in a relationship with this person? Because maybe they're going to film something about us and then maybe it'll air. And then if we break up, it's more pressure. So we also had that. Yeah. But with the whole courtship thing, I think that the main thing was like there's pressure to know like, okay, it's...

do I want to like marry this person tomorrow? Well, I don't know. I need to get to know you, but you also like can't be casual friends. That really freaked me out with Abby because I viewed relationships in the same way. So I almost broke up with Abby in the first month because I was like, am I going to marry this girl tomorrow?

I don't know and it was eating me alive it was freaking me out what and I was like because I had that same view I was like okay dating is for marriage so like am I gonna marry her I gotta decide right now and it's like I she's cool she's my friend like we really like each other I don't know that's really freaking scares me and so I almost I almost ended it because of that but I

I'm so curious because Abby was my first relationship. I'm so curious, was Ginger your first relationship? - No, no. And I was open with her about that at first. I got married when I was 28 and she got married when she was 22. They're six years. So I just turned 28, she was 22. And if I had gotten married when I was 22, it would have been a disaster. I was not in a place of maturity, of spiritual maturity. And so I'd had previous relationships.

And so, yeah, and she was aware of that. But I was her first serious relationship too, so. So was that hard though, not being, because you had to keep physical distance between you at all times. You couldn't just like watch a movie with your hand over her shoulder, right? Well, I mean, we...

Well, we could like, we could like, we could, yeah, we could like sit on the couch next to each other or whatever. But like, it was just rules. Like they just have a lot of rules. So. But, but for me, like I obviously, I was pastoring. I was really serious about my relationship with the Lord by that point in my life. Yeah. And so I wanted physical purity. Yeah. I didn't want. We didn't.

Like, we, I think that it would have been fine to, like, kiss before we were married, but we didn't. Like, we followed all the rules that my family wanted us to follow. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We would be so screwed if it wasn't for our counselor that we found through BetterHelp. What do you mean, so screwed? I'm just saying, like, it's been, therapy has been great. I'm a big fan of BetterHelp. I just love how accessible it is because I think that, especially growing up in a small town, like...

You got like four options of a therapist. And now with BetterHelp, with the internet, we have access to BetterHelp. Yes. And say, let's pretend that you sign up for BetterHelp and you're like, ah, don't really vibe with my therapist. Guess what? You can switch free of charge. And then if the next person you're like, you know what? I want to try one more time. Boom. Maybe third time's a charm. And you went through, like you speed dated your therapist and then you found the perfect match.

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Help, H-E-L-P dot com slash unplanned podcast. Back to the episode. Why did you decide to do that? Because at that point, right, you were 21 when you first met. So why at 21? Because you were rethinking all these things. So I'm curious why you chose to go through with all that. Well, because I was still in this, the...

In the system, you know, I still had a lot of things that I was coming out of. And the other side was I did want to like respect my parents' wishes. And I thought, okay, this is a season. And yes, it's our life, but it's also like their wishes. And so I wanted them to be, I wanted them to like Jeremy. I wanted them to like this relationship happening. And so I thought if there are any of those things where I can like

give up whatever I might want to do. And at that point, I probably would have thought maybe I should, you know, save my first kiss for my wedding day. Like I probably still believed that. Um, but like, I think a lot of those things started to fall off later because

And at the same time, they're like having the chaperone there was not convenient all the time. And that was something that I probably could have had a conversation with my parents and even said, Hey, like, I don't really see it the same way, but I didn't. I also wanted to just like, probably because I was working through so much of the teachings and breaking it down. I thought, okay, I'm just going to work through this on my own right now.

And not talk too much about it. There was never a desire to be disrespectful or like we, even if there's things it's like, oh, we should do it differently. Ginger and I both were totally ready to lay down our rights and say, yeah, we'll follow your wishes. And knowing like I knew I was falling in love with who she was. And so the superficial things, even like

I didn't press on her not to wear skirts or she came to those decisions on her own. And I really wasn't that concerned about it because I was in love with her. And so I knew too, like, hey, the more we live life together and the more she's grounded in the word of God, some of this stuff will just fall away. Like, cause it doesn't, it doesn't really have any,

doesn't have any teeth to hold her. And I think you saw a lot of that. Like even if you're talking about the teachings and stuff and I just like had a light bulb moment, you know, I was like, what is this? Yeah, I knew she got it. Like she got it, you know. My eyes were open to, to,

um, how bad the teachings were that I was in and I really wanted to come out of them. And so I think he saw that too. And I wasn't in a rush to like, be like, Oh, can we change things? It was kind of like, Hey, I know who this woman is at her core. That's who I'm marrying. And if we need some chaperones, it's like, sure. And I'm going to do everything to respect her father and respect her mother. And I'm not trying to come in here like,

this big shake things up. I want to be respectful. And honestly, that's how I'd want somebody to approach me for my daughters. Even if I have rules they don't agree with, it's like, hey man, that's my daughter and I want you to respect that. And ultimately, yeah, I think I wanted to have integrity through that whole process. That's really commendable. What was it like the first time you wore pants in front of your family? I can't remember when the first time was I did that. I didn't know if that was a big moment. Was it the other day? Was it last...

No. It was probably like maybe like a couple years after I started wearing pants. Because, I mean, we live far away from home. Oh, okay. But like the first few times I went back, I was not wearing pants. I wore a skirt just to honor, just because it was, yeah. Yeah.

It was just, you know, I knew that that's a big deal for my family. And I didn't want to like, my heart is not to rub anything in anyone's face and be like, I'm doing this. I'm doing my own thing. Like I ultimately want to play a long game of like showing them that, okay, I love you. I'm, I know that we disagree on a lot and,

But I want you to see that I'm walking with Christ and this is what I'm doing. I don't feel like it's a sin to live my life in this way, to do what I'm convicted of now. And I want them to see long term those things. But I don't have a heart to like rub it in their face. And that's where about Ginger's process, like with all these things that seemingly seem insignificant, like pants or something.

Ginger's heart has always been, I want to honor my family. I want to respect them and love them. And ultimately I want to have a sweet relationship. I don't, so there's never been a mindset of like,

you know, Oh, I'm free. And let me, so even when we approach those topics, it was always thoughtful. It was always, let's have a conversation. Let's explain where we're at. And it wasn't like we got married and then she went, okay, I'm writing a book. It was, that was a six, five, six, seven year process of her going, me living my life and then seeing like, okay, now I want to share this story because I see it. So these teachings are so damaging and coming out of them. Um,

it made me want to like speak because I could look over and see friends and loved ones who are being so harmed by this teaching all around me. And I can't just be quiet. And did you have, like, did you think through the conversation, call up your parents and tell them, hey, I'm not wearing pants? Or was it one of those things where you're like, I'm just doing this? And then they find out that

Yeah, just like you said, just having a conversation with them. Oh, you did? You felt the need to need to call them up and let them know? Yes, because it's a big enough thing in my family. Like that's huge. It might seem so small, like Tara said, it seems so insignificant to so many. But for my family, that was massive. And so I wanted to let them know, regardless of how things go, like, I just want to be

like be able to share that and I don't feel like I have to share every little thing with them now like even looking at our lives we are living our lives however we're not like oh I have to call my mom and dad and tell them okay I'm gonna do this differently but that was like one of the first things and also I think the big thing is just because we're in the public eye I knew that there was gonna be so much that would blow up you know if it's like a paparazzi photo when we're out that's taken okay that happens all the time so like

let's just be ready for it. I'm just going to tell them. And then that way they know, and they know that it came from a heart of like, Hey, this is what I'm, I feel convicted of or don't anymore, you know? Um, and they can just know from my heart and then we'll move on.

And so that's kind of how it was with a couple different things that I felt convicted of, whether that was like getting a mortgage on a house, like because my dad's in real estate. I was like, well, let's just run this by him and we're going to just tell him what we're doing. Like not like, hey, what do you think of all? What do you think of what we're doing? Sometimes there's an element of that. Like we asked our other like counselors in our life at that point what we should do. And they were like, yeah, go for it. And so.

I just wanted to include them on a couple of those things. But as we've moved on, like we have our lives here, we're established. We have a great community around us, an awesome church that we're a part of and love it. And so like, we'll have other people that we're asking those questions to now. Um, and yeah, I think it's a, it's a healthy place to be, but I just always wanted to show them that I loved and cared about them, even if we have differences. Wow. Yeah. I did not think through, you know,

Obviously, it is a big deal. But yeah, just wanting to tell your parents, hey, I mean, I respect you calling them and telling them that because you obviously didn't need to do that. But just like caring about them enough to call them up. How does that, is that frustrating when something gets picked up in the media? Or I'm sure there's been so many articles written about like, we've never dealt with paparazzi. We make TikToks. Like we're not paparazzi people, but you've dealt with that.

And so it must be really frustrating when people twist the storyline or try to paint you out to be somebody. How does that make you feel? I don't know. I think just having grown up in the public eye, there's a certain level of realizing, okay, this is just our life. And it's not like we have this crazy amount of paparazzi following us every single day. There were seasons where it was wild like that. And it's ultimately...

I realized like whatever they say, there's always going to be a naysayer. There's always going to be someone, if it's a comment in your social media, all of us experience it. If it's a friend saying something behind our back, whatever it is, at the end of the day, I just want to let it like roll off my back. If it's something that's negative, now if it's something that's legit, then that's where it hurts worse. Like if it's kind of like twisted, it's like, oh, Ginger did this and she's doing this despite her parents. I'm like, no, no.

I am doing like, I'm going to wear pants, but it's not to like, to make them mad. Like those things bother me if it's like about my family or if it's about my kids. So for instance, we have kept our kids off of social media. That's something I felt like both of us felt like really inclined to do. And so we showed Felicity at the beginning for a little bit when she was small. And then I just really felt like, I don't want their faces out there. I don't want them to have to like,

just be a part of this because I was. And I said, like, if they have, you know, one, a following later, they can go do that for themselves when they're old enough to decide. Um, but that was something we felt convicted about. Well, then all these articles pop up about, um, my youngest Evie. They were like, well, why haven't you showed her, you know, like you won't show her face. Does

Does she have a medical condition that you're ashamed of? Like, what's the thing that's wrong with her? And so you'll still see articles about that. And it's like, you know, if you don't show them, then they're like, oh, this is crazy. They always think that we have major marriage issues.

if we aren't on social media for a couple months. And I'm like, no, it's just because I'll push through social media, do stuff, and then I'll get burnout. So then I just back off. And I'm like, it's fine. I won't do anything on social media for a few months. We just haven't taken a picture together in a long time. But it's like, because you've lived your life in front of them for so long, there will be a few, just a few people who will write up all this stuff. And so those types of things...

Now we've just like, we just kind of laugh it off and like, oh, that's funny. We've had people on the show that have been a part of like family vlogs on YouTube. And one of the siblings decided, hey, I don't really want to like be in the videos that much. And so their parents respected that, you know, didn't have in the videos and same thing. Their audience was like, oh my gosh, they hate that kid.

People just love this story. It's like, what is the drama? Oh my gosh, they don't like their kid. And so I find that so fascinating that they kind of did the same thing. The media did that with you guys. Yeah, for sure. Drama sells. I mean, it's just, you get clicks. The more clicks you get, the internet has changed that for journalists because now it's about clicks. You can actually measure how many people viewed this, how many people, and then they see like, oh, these negative headlines. Yeah.

get thousands of more views. And so it's not genuine journalism. It's like journalists who fail journalism. But it gets clicks because the more audacious you can be... And then obviously you have the laws in our country really protect the journalist from defamation. So it's like you really can't sue for defamation. There's no integrity. And so they're just after clicks. And so we understand that. And so it kind of rolls off our back. Yeah. You know, early on in our relationship, we...

determined and this is like initial now we'll read some headlines but

you know just pops up but early on i mean our engagement was on magazine cover or whatever and i was just stepping into this world we were just like we're just not going to read it because what happens is the good headlines and i guess this is true of like comments too like if you put out a video or put on a reel and you read good comments you're like oh yeah it can easily go to your head yeah and puff you up but then the negative ones cut to your heart and like tear you down yeah and so you find yourself on this roller coaster of people's opinions

And some guy's like eating Cheerios in his mom's basement. And all of a sudden, like my emotional state is being affected because he didn't like...

the way I put the car seat in the car. Yeah. And so... The way I put the car seat in my head too. It's facts. I've got that comment too, man. Just avoid the car seat. So you just go, I'm just not going to read it. Like, I'm just going to avoid that. And I was told that, you know, playing soccer professionally, it was like, do not listen to the blogs. Like, do not go on Twitter. Do not, because you'll have a performance and people will just rip you apart. And so it's better just to keep your headspace, you know, on reality. When you're...

life is so public and you're on a TV show. I'm curious, like, was there a point where you're like, are we going to get like, we going to see some money out of this? Like, was that a, was that a conversation that you had with the producers, your parents? Because, uh,

counting on was a show that you guys were very much a part of. So I'm sure you probably had to make some sacrifices for the show and to make that happen, right? Yeah, that was interesting, the dynamics there. We chose, again, we chose not to make money an issue because once you mix money and family, things get complicated real fast. We understood there was issues with the money. That show was making a ton of money.

But Ginger and I just both determined we're not going to make this an issue. Even though this might be a hill that we can fight on, we're just not going to fight on that hill. We had conversations. But we just kind of like, at the end of the day, it was like, okay, we'll just do our own thing. Make our own money somehow. And so we determined, I mean, through counsel and talking to others too, like,

we're just not going to fight that battle. Gotcha. And so if some came in, we were like, great. And if it didn't, we're just, we just honestly just said, we're not going to fight that battle because we just knew, honestly, we were playing, we saw bigger issues. And I think there were some issues that seemed to be like leaves on the tree, but the root of the issue was deeper and more theological. And Ginger had a conviction that,

I want to speak to the deeper issues. Yeah. And I don't want the others to get in the way of my voice on that. Yeah, because for me, my heart really is in all of that. I want to, at the end of the day, I want to have... It's not about just going over the issues and just covering them up. That's not the thing. We talked through a ton of issues and worked through. It was hard, you know? And at the end of the day, it's like I want...

my loved ones to see, like to come out of these teachings. And so I want to be helpful to them to like get them out of this system to get them like, that was my drive. And so I thought I want to be in a place where I can still talk to them and still be in their lives. Like, I don't want to be like, yeah, I don't want to make,

unwise decisions to where it would be tough to do that later. And not to say that those issues shouldn't be addressed and then being addressed have been addressed properly. It was just the avenue. Just the timing too. We just thought this is what we're going to. Because like we did have conversations about a lot of things that were not easy. But I think that our heart in all of it was just to, to,

make sure that whatever we were doing, that we would be living as we wanted to as a couple. And then from there, like my goal is just to like reach my friends and loved ones to like pull them out.

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then you'll automatically save by getting a Dash Pass membership. Sign up for Dash Pass today and get your first 30 days free if you're a new member and enjoy a summer full of savings. Dash Pass benefits apply only to eligible orders. Terms apply. Back to the episode. You know, there were times where I was like, okay, we were done. We were done filming, right? And it was tough. Like we wanted to be, you know, have our kids off of TV or things like that where...

There were aspects where it was things that we wanted to do and we realized like, okay, we might not be able to get everything that we want right now. Like it's not possible. And so I wanted just to play a long game with my family relationships to preserve those, to be able to be...

and a good influence on them to like get them out of these teachings was my goal. So like even when I wrote that book, right, like going into that, I was like, maybe I shouldn't write this book because family relationships might be harmed by it. They might think that I'm doing this out of spite or sharing my story for another reason if they think like, oh, maybe this book's going to do well. So I'm going to share my story, make money off of it.

Um, I didn't want to make that an issue. So I said, well, I'm convicted that I should write this. So I'm going to do that even though it's hard. And it was the hardest thing I've ever done, but it was the right thing to do. So I'm not going to sacrifice conviction on what I think I'm supposed to do based on what other people want me to do or not say, you know, but at the end of the day, when it came to like the show and all of that stuff, I was like, I'm going to set that aside for the

the opportunity to be in their lives and to be able to speak into their lives in a positive way to hopefully help them come out of these teachings. So writing the book, praising that as the hardest thing you've ever done. I,

quite honestly listening to it like I I've assumed that it probably was hard but for it to be the the hardest thing you've ever done what like I guess elaborate on that for me which I mean the more I hear you talk about I'm like okay duh no wonder this was what this was tricky like this is your whole life this is everything that you knew there must have been a lot of pain intertwined with um all that so I guess yeah I think just because of the system it was my life

It was everything. So if you're just in like... Sorry. No, you're okay. I usually get too emotional over this. I think it is painful. Like when you leave everything that you've known and you sacrifice relationships over it, it's hard. I'm so sorry. When you sacrifice relationships with like friends, people thinking that you're doing the wrong thing by speaking out, it's hard because it's like...

Especially being in such a tight-knit community where those are your people. And I was building my own community outside of it, but I did not have even the strongest community when I was in that place of starting writing. So that aspect of having a few close friends that I was starting to get friendships with and having a good...

community around me was just beginning in a new place because we had just moved you know to LA and then writing that and realizing like okay if I write this book I could really just cut off this whole all I've ever known and that was the side the risk that I had to take and ultimately in the end yes there have been some that have that I probably won't be close to because I wrote that book

But then at the end of the day, I realized like, okay, I have also...

been able to help way more people than I ever would have if I lived in that fear of being like in the comfort of like where I thought I was. It wasn't actually comforting because I was living so gripped by that fear of like, I can't ever say anything. I can't ever speak out about this because I just knew where that would leave me. You know, it would leave me in a place like with no one. But ultimately that's not what has happened. And this book, writing this book has been the best thing that I've ever done because

because it's also helped me to grow. It's helped me to realize like, okay, I want to be a voice to speak up whenever it's hard and I want to show even others who are in that place to be willing to do the hard things, be willing to step outside of, um,

harmful theology that you might be in right now do the hard thing now and you won't regret it later and so that's something that even for my kids I want them to see that it's not best to take the easy route you know it feels comfortable in the moment but you're going to help more people if you are willing to sacrifice yourself in that way and I know your book has been an inspiration to so many I'm sure people tell you that and write reviews about that all the time

Something I'm curious about is like in choosing to write this book was one of those tough conversations you had to have probably with your parents. Yeah. Yeah. I had to share with my parents. And it was, yeah, it was hard having those conversations with them because ultimately I chose to write my book from a perspective of the theology being the drive driving force because I thought if my mom reads this, if my dad reads this, if my siblings read this,

how are they going to take it? I don't want to like not talk about things that need to be talked about because they can be offended at what I said earlier.

That is true. Like you can be offended that I'd say that Bill Gothard is a false teacher, but I don't want you to be offended over a petty thing that I might've said about you. So I chose to keep it focused on the issues of the teaching that I was raised in to keep it more broad. Like where, if anybody reads this coming out of a harmful teaching that they can be brought out of their teaching too. And so that's the perspective that I wanted to take. And I told them that from the beginning, I think that was something that,

one more conversation that I had that I thought this is needful to share with them what I'm writing and they don't have to be happy about it but it

It's what I need to do. Was that hard to like weigh that versus like, you know, scripture saying honor your mother and father? Was that been like a really hard thing to like separate? Not for me. I don't think that that was an issue because I am honoring them. Honoring doesn't mean obeying. It doesn't mean doing everything that they say. And as a couple, we are our own family unit. And so I need to love and honor my parents, which means respect them. But I don't have to

bow down to like everything that they say I need to do.

And so that for me was very clear. I had clear conscience going into that, writing this book, thinking I am honoring them. I even said I'm grateful for, you know, my childhood was not perfect. I shared a lot of difficulties that I struggled with throughout my childhood. But at the end of the day, like I'm grateful for my parents. I love them. We have differences. Everything's not perfect between us. But I think that at the end of the day,

I love them and I know that they know that. And yeah, I think that it's good that we're able to speak out, especially like being in a public place. You don't have the option. I guess, I don't know if you have the option. You don't have the option to just stay silent. Like, cause this is some teachings. These are the teachings that I promoted, right?

When I was on the show, I promoted these teachings as being good. Courtship is being the option. Wearing these clothes is being the option. I wrote a New York Times bestselling book with my sisters that talked all about Bill Gothard's principles. And so I needed to correct what I had said. I needed to share where I am now. And so that was what I was really convicted about. And even going into that, sharing with my parents that I've grown and I've changed and this is where I am now. I'm going to share this.

And I hope that you'll understand. Does that worry you that that book, I'm sure there's still copies out there. Like, does that ever worry you that people could come across this book and be like, well, Ginger Duggar said this. So I still get royalty checks every once in a while. It's like, you know, pennies, but I mean, it still is like, it's funny. It's really funny. I don't worry about it too much because I think it's like a thing of the past. And, um, I think that if anybody wanted to see that book, I'm like, yeah,

Yeah, it's a shame that I wrote it. But at the end of the day, I could only like start from where I am now and move forward. If you don't mind me asking, like, what does it look like now navigating a relationship with your parents? Like, do you talk to them every X amount of days? Or like, do you see them at certain events? Like, how does that how does that look now with you living out here in California, which is obviously a lot further away than I think everyone's back in Arkansas, right? So yeah, it's

Um, being far away from family is like, you know, they're always bittersweet things about that. Right. Like I wish I could be there with my sisters when they're all hanging out or whatever. But, um, it's also been healthy for us to just be away and be our own family and, um, grow and learn together. And then like, I will, um,

I will like, we're on a family group message with my family. And so there's always something going on. So I can see what my family's up to. Um, I try to call my mom regularly and talk to her and see what she's up to. And then different siblings. Like I talked to all of my older sisters, um,

Like we'll just FaceTime and catch up. Big family dynamics even make that difficult. Like I feel bad that I can't talk to all my siblings all the time. What is that group chat like with 19 kids? It's wild. Two parents. That must be, I mean, you must be getting a ding every like five minutes on there. I mean, you have to silence it. Yeah, seriously. But I just,

I just silence it and then I'll look at it. You know, at the end of the day, I'll see whatever they've posted, but it's like, whatever's going on. Like the other day, tornado tornadoes were going through. And so we were just looking at all of the stuff. They're like posting pictures of clouds and like, you know, texting videos of the damage. Once it came through, they were all fine. Thank the Lord.

but like it's stuff like that right whatever's going on around them or like news articles that pop up they'll send out whatever it is my family's in missouri and abby has been cracking me up because my dad she's pointed out my dad will always send messages about the weather so you mentioned you mentioned the tornadoes i'm like yeah we knew about the tornadoes because my dad told us in the family group chat it's a family group chat thing every family group chat has to know are the

Are the spouses allowed in the Duggar family group chat? Because then that could really crowd it up. It's huge, yes. So the spouses are in it too. Yeah, well, they have tons of them. So we have girls one. There's a workout one that I'm on. There's the big family one. Everything you need right there. Yeah, there are so many. There are so many group chats. I can't keep up with all them.

But yeah, it's just another way to like kind of stay in touch with what's happening over there. So yeah, it's good. It's good. I keep having this intrusive thought about you having a J name as well, being a Jeremy. And there's not a Jeremy. No, there's Jeremiah. Okay. So that's too close. Yeah, close. Yeah, they can both be Jer-bears. You have a J name that is not involved. You looked out and you're like, I like this girl. And it's like, oh, you have...

you have a J name, you're in. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Totally.

It would start to get weird if like all the other brother-in-laws had J names. That'd be a little weird. I am curious. Like, do you know why your parents just, was it just because they liked all J names? Well, they started out and they had my oldest brother, they named him with J and then the twins were next and they named them Jana and John. And then after that they thought, well, if we just have one more kid, we don't want them to be left out. So it started out because they thought it was cute for the twins to have matching names. And then the oldest already had J name and then Jill was next.

So they couldn't leave Jill with like Sally, you know, like what would that be? That would be so embarrassing. And they thought if they just had one more kid and then that just continued. A question that's been in the back of my brain for like 45 minutes now because I meant to ask it earlier because we were talking about Bob Gothard and I was like, wait a second. I love Bob Gothard. I mean, I'm sorry, I just called him Bob. His name is Bill. Call him Bob.

- Okay, you literally met Bill, right? Like he came over to your house when you guys were kids. - Yeah, he knew who we were. So we were like friends. - That is crazy. 'Cause I think of this guy, obviously he started this massive movement and so the fact that you had him over at your house, that was just like, whoa, okay. - Yeah, I have it in my journal. Oh yeah, I was looking at my journals recently too and I realized I wrote down in my kid journal

that he came and played foosball with me. And I think I lost, did I lose to him? Like playing foosball? It was like a big thing. You did lose. You said it in your book. Did I write it in the book too? You wrote it in the book. That's right, I did. That's why I had it out too. I was reading it. But I played foosball. See, my memory now, we would just interact because we would go to his headquarters for like girls retreats and stuff. And then we would talk to him. We'd see him at conferences. And I think because my family was like,

poster family for the IVLP for a while, then we had a closer relationship with them. Is it still around? Are they still having conferences? Yes, they still have conferences. Bill Gothard's not, he's not like over it now, but they definitely still have conferences.

conferences going on i assumed that it was over like i i watched the documentary shiny happy people and i assumed that this was something of the past no so wow it's heyday is past like it's yeah but it's like it's interesting because you'll see movements like that in in evangelicalism where like the heyday of filling stadiums is is gone now they're you know fledgling and struggling financially but

the influence of those ideas permeates. And so a lot of people today would be really influenced by those ideas and have no idea the formal introduction. So they wouldn't know his name, but they think the way he thinks because it's permeated churches or whatever.

And you mentioned your diary. Something that really struck me in your book was the fact that someone put it on eBay or something and was trying to sell it. Yeah, wild story. So this was back whenever the show was in its peak stage. And we would often just have random people come visit us. They would email and they would say, can we come visit? And so often it was families. Sometimes it was just individuals that would like,

watch the show and they would email us and we'd just have them over for tater tot casserole dinner. Um, and it was, it was great, you know, so we had lots of random people that would just come into our home, take it like always giving house tours. Um, and then there was one time it was like over the 4th of July, we had quite a few people who wanted to come visit us. And one of them was, um, this girl and she said she was like a college student and wanted to just come see our family. And so my parents were like, well, you know,

you can come on the 4th because we're going to have like a lot of people have a big party. So she shows up and somebody gave her a house tour and she had a backpack with her most of the day. Um, and she, when she went on the house tour, I guess she just stole my diary out of my nightstand and

And so, um, yeah, she took it and it wasn't until a couple months later that somebody emailed my dad. Like one of our friends was like, Hey, I think that Ginger's diary is on eBay. And, and he was kind of like laughing cause they were like, yeah. And it's like for up for a hundred thousand dollars. And so he called me upstairs, page over the intercom and I ran upstairs and

like, oh my goodness, I'm so mortified. It's my diary. I was not mortified because of the details. The content was nothing was private. That should be, you know, kept secret. It was my handwriting. My handwriting was awful. They opened it up to the page where I had like written with very sloppy handwriting. And then I like blacked out a section and

And then below was like the worst looking handwriting ever. And so I was mortified. You know, I was like, what? I don't know, like a 14 year old when I saw this. And that was from when I was younger. And so I was like, how could they get that one? How could they get that diary? But we ended up figuring out who it was.

and told her she had to send it back. And she did. Well, eventually, yeah. Or she would be prosecuted. Oh, you're like, it took a little bit more. She wouldn't send it back at first, yeah. And then she's like, okay, I'll send it back in the paper cup I drank out of. Do you want that too? Like, a little attitude, yeah.

And she stole another book out of, she stole a book out of our like book cabinets with doors on them. Just a random biography she took. So she sent that back too. That is so weird. Bizarre. And then get this. She emails us later and she says, okay, I would actually like to come back to your house because I want to bring a busload of people back who are just like me.

What would you say? I would say, heck to the no, is what I would say. Yeah. So she said she could stay on the couch, though. Are these people in prison? She said she could sleep on the couch. Are these a bunch of thieves that you met while you were stealing books? I know. I know. I know. People just like me. And we were like, no. Don't want anyone like you. So most of the people we met over that time were really cool and nice. It was kind of interesting having strangers in our house all the time. But...

Yeah, that was just life before the gate at the front of my family's house. Like we didn't have a gate so people would come down the driveway and knock on our front door. It was interesting. Because it doesn't seem like you made much money from the show. Have you considered re-putting up the diary on T-Bag for 100K? I mean, think about it. 100K?

Well, with inflation, let's move it up. 200K. You could probably get 250. I don't know if there was any bids, though. Were there any bids on it? No way. No active bids? That was so insane. It's funny. But it was hilarious. Yeah. Wow. Get a laugh out of it now. Then it was creepy. It just felt like such an invasion of privacy. That is...

Creepy not knowing who took it for a while. That kind of scared us. Okay, so obviously I think it's clear. Like who can we not trust? Yeah, totally. I think it's clear that you guys probably won't have 19 kids, but where are you at now with that? Where are you on the topic of children? Because you have two right now, right? You said three and a half is a long time. I know. Three and a half and then we have a five-year-old.

She's going to be six soon. And yeah, we're talking about it. So we've thought like initially, I think we said three to five kids. But now we're like, OK, we think maybe three, two or three. So yeah, we'll let y'all know. We'll let y'all know. Felicity has been drawing a lot recently. And she drew a little picture of our family.

And it was mom, dad, her, Evie, and a little brother. And then she was singing a song in the car yesterday. That would be enough for me. All about brother. She was like, and Evie and mommy and daddy and our little brother. And I was like, oh no. Does she know something we don't know? You better get rid of that painting though because it could end up happening. Oh no. Go home and burn it. Call the police right now.

That's true. It was on the bridge. Oh my God. I wouldn't mind. I don't know. Yeah. We'll see what happens. Boys are really fun. Yeah. Is there one, is there one person that's like, let's keep having kids. And then there's one else who's like, let's not. I think we're both just about like, yeah, we'll just, we'll just see. Yeah. Like, we don't know. Gotcha. We're just enjoying the stage though. The kids are so much fun. This is such a sweet stage with him. I love that. Yeah.

That's sweet. Well, we're so happy for you guys. You just seem like you've got things figured out. So wise. You're so good at speaking. Sorry to interrupt you. You're so good at speaking. And I interrupted you. Both of you. You can keep talking. Sorry. I really was just saying.

I'm inspired by you guys. Like, you seem like very wise and like you've handled everything with so much grace and class and I think it's admirable. That's so sweet. That's kind of you saying. Well, thank you guys so much for having me. Because it didn't have to be that way, right? Like, I mean, like you said, drama sells and it gets clicks and everything and I think that you've really kept...

big picture and like what you ultimately want I'm super grateful for you guys and thanks for having us on of course you guys are so cool I hope we accomplished this goal but I'm pretty sure you said that you didn't do the shiny happy people documentary because you didn't want to be like misconstrued or something so my goal is that like your voice is heard the way that you want it to be heard through this episode so I hope we accomplished that today yes you did thank you so much for letting us share awesome

of course of course yeah well thank you guys let's get lunch go get their book check out their book i listen you can listen to it on 2x speed if you want to be crazy like me or read it you can i guess you could read it too yeah it's becoming free indeed and it's anywhere books are sold you can get the audio audio book or yeah just hard copy and where can people find you guys on social media is is that something you're posting to yeah we're on social media um

I'm at Ginger Volo. I don't know if you say at anymore. Ginger Volo on social media and then Jeremy. Yeah. I think I have an underscore there. Underscore. All right. We're going to get some lunch. Thanks for watching, everybody.