Will Stacey Abrams (Finally) Win?
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From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is The View. And I'm your host, Joy Behar, with 43% less. So what? Who cares? Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naima Raza.

You're a lot of so what, who cares, by the way. Not New York, so what, who cares? So, Kara, a lot of people are talking about the John Fetterman episode. Yeah, well, we did this interview and obviously we did not remove his ums and ahs. We're trying to show what he sounds like in real life. And

And everybody got into it because there was another person who did an interview for NBC and said that when they were chit-chatting that they couldn't get it. And I was really irritated because he did answer all the questions very cogently in all the interviews, including that NBC one. And so I got really mad and started tweeting about it. And, you know, if he had struggled, we would have discussed it with him. We did discuss it with him.

him. And we made the choice not to remove all the ums and ahs and stumbles. Some of them were kind of misspeaks of words. I had a few too. But they were not making him unintelligible or unable to keep up with the conversation. In fact, he was very able to be present. Anyway, I got really testy about it.

Let's move on. Anyways, today we have an interview with Georgia gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams, and we have some advice from Kara Swisher. Yes, for a listener who's calling in to ask me how I got so bold in sharing my opinions. But before we get to the advice and the interview, let's talk about today's newsmakers. Well, it's a few people this week. The L.A. City Council members, especially Nuri Martinez and Kanye West, of course. You mean Yeh Kara. He legally changed his name. The artist formerly known as Kanye West. But yes, all of these individuals have been in the news this week for racist remarks and

And it's worth kind of diving into each of them to unpack what was said, what the fallout's been, you know, how these issues are kind of rising to mass public attention and being weaponized also. So let's start with the L.A. City Council. The L.A. Times got hold of a recording of a meeting between three city council members of Latino descent and a powerful labor leader, also Latino. The conversation occurred last fall. I actually listened to the whole tape. It's about redistricting, and it's kind of about

the participation in economic assets like airports and stadiums. And yet it's hard to hear this insight into this backdoor negotiation because it's just full of racially charged and racist remarks. The main mouthpiece is Nuri Martinez, who was then president of the council and was president until as recently as last week.

She said the adopted Black son of a white city councilman, Mike Bonin, parece chanquito, which in Spanish means looks like a monkey. She said that Bonin and his husband were raising their son like a white kid, saying, quote, this kid needs a beat down. She referred to Oaxacan immigrants as little short, dark people. I have to say that the tape is actually worse when you listen to it than the reporting suggests, because there's this kind of key moment around 28 minutes in where the

She's making these comments and she's just laughing. There's so much, you know, there's laughter. There's a kind of convivial nature to this really racist moment where they're talking about a small child. And it was racist. It was inappropriate. It was just truly grotesque.

So I don't know, did you hear it or have you- I did, I heard parts of it. And this is, I think, a gay couple who had adopted someone. And so it was just one thing on top of the next. They said they were carrying around like a hand purse, just completely ignorant. And this is how people talk corporately

quietly by themselves. There is no quiet by yourself, especially when you're a city official. I was with a pretty prominent CEO of a white man who was the CEO of a big company. And he said to me, he said that the worst thing about this country is you can't say what you want to anymore.

And I was like, maybe some of the things you said were just truly awful and maybe you should shut up like that. You know, they see it as a free speech thing versus a versus just what they're saying is appalling. And so I don't I think it's good to see what people think behind the curtain. And it's being weaponized, by the way, the mayoral debate on Tuesday night kicked off with this topic. And Rick Caruso, who was a conservative, who slipped of Democrat, kind

kind of put out a statement earlier in the day saying most of the people involved in this ugly episode have endorsed Karen Bass, the congresswoman who's running against Caruso and is actually leading him in the polls. You know, a white Italian candidate kind of saying, oh, don't vote for this black woman who's been endorsed by these people who are not pure or not who don't see her value. So what do you make of that kind of weaponization? I'm shocked. Nothing, nothing at all. Completely. Same old, same old. Yeah.

Okay, so the L.A. story is this closed-door conversation between a bunch of politicians. And on the other side of the spectrum, we have an artist, yay, Kanye West, kind of making open remarks that are racist, anti-Semitic.

He showed up at the Yeezy fashion show last week wearing a White Lives Matter shirt. He had some models in tow wearing the same and Candace Owens wearing the same shirt, too. And then there was a social media outcome. Kara, talk about that. Yeah, his Instagram was restricted for comments about Diddy being controlled by Jews. When Meta kicked him off, he came back to Twitter. Within days, he was tweeting he'd go to deathcon3.com.

on Jewish people, whatever that means. I think he meant DEFCON. Now his Twitter is locked too. Then he did an interview with Tucker Carlson in which they edit out all the crap he said. You know, he's, I'm not a doctor, but he's clearly got mental illness problems and letting him go on like this is both depressing and takes advantage of him, I think.

And it's sad. And he should have gotten kicked off. A Meta spokesperson told me that they deleted content from Kanye West for violating their policies and they restricted the account and asking what other options or what else they might do. They may restrict accounts that repeatedly break their rules. They can, for example, stop them from posting temporarily. They can stop them from commenting. They can stop them from sending DMs. So there are a lot of options that Meta has at this point.

What, I guess, what do you think they should do? Should they kick him off? I think a lot of people are aware that he's undergoing, he's well-publicized. I've been in his presence when he did something at a New York Times event that Andrew Ross Sorkin did. The deal book event? The deal book event. And Kim Kardashian and her mom, Kris, were on stage. And during the question period, he interrupted and sort of

He was talking about a lot of things, but quite disjointed. I understood what he was talking about because I had been aware of this camp that he was working on. But if you didn't know it, it was so hard to understand. And then I went backstage to say hi to him and Chris was furious, let me just say. And she was lovely about it, but...

And she was like, he's got mental illness problems. Yeah, he has bipolar. He's talked about having bipolar disorder and being on meds. Right. And then he came up to me. And I don't know him very well. I know her pretty well. And he came up to me and he said, that was bad, wasn't it? I mean, he was completely, I mean, that was bad. And I said, it was terrible. So he recognized it. Absolutely. And I said, I think you should get some help. I don't know what to say. And I didn't want to say, no, no, it was OK. Because a lot of the people around him, he's got all these enablers around him.

Why that's interesting to me is Frances Hagen, I was talking to her about Kanye, and she said one of the things that could be done is this delay. And she's talked about this before broadly. And she said, you know, what if you put a delay, even a lag between keystrokes as people are typing or a need to kind of come back and confirm a post or some kind of delay? And I wondered when she said it, like, would that even have changed? But actually, what you're telling me is that

That was just one moment, and he seemed fully aware of what was going on. He's obviously, you know, people call him a musical genius, but I think a lot of people sort of are losing their patience with him, and that's sad, too. I mean, I'm not trying to be nice to Kanye West, but it's clear what's happening here. We can differentiate him from Candace Owens. She's out there. She's monetizing this particular thing being her brand. He has kind of fallen into, he's been a little bit co-opted or kind of

kind of used, the right is kind of scooping him up and waving him around, like winding him up and sending him out. So Tucker Carlson had him on the show. And Vice Now has since leaked clips of on-air segments. So they kind of pruned him. So they edited out that he'd been vaccinated. They edited out this anti-Semitic rant from him. But they kept in these comments about how he was pro-life, defending his shirt,

talking about supporting Trump. So they are, I think... They're using him. They're using him. Yeah. And I think that's really, truly screwed up and it makes me sad. But people are glomming onto him. By the way, there's some Silicon Valley people glomming onto him. Yeah. Shervin Peshavar was working for this new company he was doing. And then... Shervin is one of the big Miami enthusiasts who defected from Silicon Valley to Miami. And he was Menlo Ventures, right? He was an Uber investor. Well, he's a senior executive at

You know, he's always, Silicon Valley people have loved hanging out with Kanye. And a lot of them are, I think Jack Dorsey hung out with him, if I recall, Elon, a bunch of them. And they, you know, there's a lot of back and forth between LA sort of music and other celebrities and Silicon Valley people. It didn't used to be, but now it is. By the way, Shervin compared Kanye to Steve Jobs. Yeah. Okay. What do you think? No. Sorry, he's wrong.

He's wrong. I mean, he's a wonderful artist. I think some of his sneakers are lovely, but not even close. Not even. I mean, OK, I know you thought you were going to get through a banter without Elon. Yeah, but we have a little bit of Elon in a segment we like to call Judge Judy of Twitter.

So, Cara, grab your gavel. Tell me what you think. When Yeg returned to Twitter after two years of not posting there because he'd been, I guess, busier on Instagram, Elon welcomed him with a bear hug. My friend. He was like, welcome back. Welcome back, my friend. Then he, after the outcry about

Kanye's racist tweets, Elon said, oh, he tweeted this, quote, talk to Ye today and express my concerns about his recent tweet, which I think he took to heart. Thoughts? I love it when people are making trouble and then when it goes too far, they're like, oh, better pretend I care. You know, I don't know. I get that he's his friend and you have to stick by your friends, I guess. But at the same time, it doesn't do you any good to ignore what this person is doing, especially publicly, especially on a platform you're about to buy.

And so what would he have done in this case if he owned it? Would he have taken him off? This is content moderation policy that he's going to talk to the people who kind of step out of line. Exactly. And he's saying free speech, bring them all back. You know, hey, dude, that wasn't cool. That probably was the extent of the fucking conversation. Like, hey, dude, hey, not cool. By the way, speaking of conversations with Elon, Ian Bremmer of Eurasia Group is saying that Elon spoke to him about a direct conversation with Putin. Yeah. And kind of implied that that conversation is tied to Elon's peace talks.

process tweets that we talked about last time. Elon has denied he's spoken to Putin other than one conversation they had 18 months ago. So it's like he said, he said, someone's lying, as we say in journalism. Unless he did talk to him 18 months ago, and then he lied to Ian Bremmer or something. He could have embellished at the time of telling the story. That's correct. That's my guess is what happened here.

Last time we spoke, you said Elon's Twitter foreign policy is not too dangerous. Have you changed your view on that, especially if he's... No, I have not. Why is it any more dangerous? If he's in dialogue with Putin and not disclosing his source, would your opinion change? CEOs talk to leaders all the time. I don't know. What's the impact? Tell me the impact other than he talked to him.

Tell me the impact. The impact is that he has sway over public opinion. The impact is people treat him, millions of people, at least a million people were in agreement with him. Who knows if they actually were or his primary source. Again, he's not a public official, wasn't elected, can do what he wants. Sorry, I'm going to be firm on this one. I think he sounds like an idiot. He was well mocked on it.

The court of public opinion, including this Judge Judy, was like, whoa, you really need to do some history. Learning. Learning some history. And I think he doesn't have sway. He doesn't have sway. On this, we will agree to disagree, Cara. You know, you think of someone like William Randolph Hearst, who actually did use his newspapers to start wars. I mean, that's a very different level. And Rupert Murdoch, let's weigh in on him. He has enormous influence that really matters. This guy's just doing a poll on Twitter. I really don't think he rises to the level of a William Randolph Hearst.

I think a lot more people like Elon and fanboy over Elon in everything he said. Nothing happens from it. In everything he said. Okay. All right. Let's focus on Rupert Murdoch if you want to talk that talk. We should have him on the show. Yeah, right. Let's have Rupert Murdoch. That's going to happen. What did you and Walt Mossberg call him? Uncle Satan? No, I called him Uncle Satan. Walt is much more polite. Walt is so nice. Yeah. Avuncular yet evil. That's how I look at it. All right, Cara, let's take a break and we will be back with our interview with Stacey Abrams.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash vox. ♪

Okay, our guest today is Democratic candidate for Georgia governor, Stacey Abrams. She's the former minority leader of the Georgia House of Representatives. Carrie, you've interviewed her a bunch since 2017, right? Yeah, I started covering her very early because someone had recommended that she was doing some really incredible compromises in Georgia that was creating great legislation. And I was like, okay, I'm going to do it.

And so I was super interested because it was, again, so much acrimony happening. And she was sort of the light in that regard of getting along with Republicans. That's interesting. She was just on Fox News this past weekend, Fox News Sunday. Is she still getting along with Republicans? I don't think they...

I don't really like her these days. You know, they've made her, as they do all women, Democrats, certain ones, into something, whatever. They're trying to sort of paint her in a certain way. That said, she's made a lot of missteps and is behind in Georgia. And so she's tried very hard to be governor. And it's the one thing she's aimed for. She even forwent a run at Senate. Yeah. People expected that she would have run instead for Senate. And this is happening now. So she's down, I think it's...

two to five points in recent polls down from Governor Kemp, the incumbent. And this is a face-off that we've seen before. It's this total deja vu they faced off in 2018. And so we'll see. I mean, it's interesting that she thinks she's going to win. Yeah. Well, she has to think she's going to win, right? She has to think she's going to win. And she's an interest.

contrast to John Fetterman, who we interviewed earlier this week, because she's more high profile. They're both seen as the face of the Democratic Party. The problem is Kemp is a pretty good candidate, whether you like him or not. He resisted Trump enough, so independents are attracted to him. But not too much. But not too much, right. He did enough. And so I think that she's going to have a hard road here. Yeah. Going too far against Trump is not good. No bueno for Georgia. At least it wasn't. Let's see if abortion...

has changed that and other issues since then. Yeah. Anyways, good luck with the interview, Cara. Thanks. Thank you for talking to me again. It's our fourth or fifth interview. And I want to start off with, I guess, the news. The recent polls have, Brian, come up between two and five points. Why do you think you are so far behind right now? I'm not far behind. In 2018, the polls had me down. He was at 49. I was at 45.8.

This is a polarized state with an electorate that is usually not included in polling. So let's use an example. 10% of the state's population is not white and not black. When you're looking at a polling size of 500, that means they're talking to maybe five or six people to extrapolate what's happening in one of the most diverse non-black, non-white communities. And so these polls are snapshots. The question is, who are they taking a picture of?

And what we know is that based on our internal polling, based on what we saw happen with mind-numbing regularity in 2018, is that the polls are going to look and they're going to see that in a state that is shifting regularly,

both in terms of partisanship and in terms of demographic composition, that I'm going to be behind by a bit. But what we do know is that my ability and my capacity to invest in turnout is what changed the game in 18. It's what won the game in 20 and 21. And we are going to continue to do that work because I,

I see polls as a snapshot, not a predictor. Okay, so you're looking for that same Georgia miracle that you had sort of twice. You did have the same lineup for Georgia governor with the same opponent. You lost that race in 2018. He is now an incumbent. What is different now from your perspective when you're looking at the whole state as a candidate? In 2018, I lost that race by 54,723 votes. Since that time, Georgia has added 1.6 million new voters.

They are predominantly more likely to be people of color, to be women, to be younger. And that means there's a new voter pool that is modeled about 53% to be Democratic. And so, number one, there are more opportunities for victory. Number two, we have now been through COVID. We have seen the end of Trump, but we have also been through racial violence. Women have lost their right to choose in Georgia. Mm-hmm.

Marriage equality is under attack. The governor does not believe in it. And there is a Supreme Court that has signaled very strongly that the governor will be the deciding factor on most of those issues. And so it is a critical race where people are starting to understand if you want to

protect your freedoms. The Supreme Court isn't going to do it. Congress can't do it. It's up to the governor. Okay. Well, how do you looking at it? Is it a persuasion game or a get out the vote one? You talked sort of two different things there. Well, but we tend to, in political parlance, divide these communities where persuasion is about ideology and turnout is about activation. So

What I have always focused on and what I'm being chastised for is that I recognize there's a third category, and that is persuasion to vote. There are communities that are automatically presumed to be voting simply because they look like the candidates. There is no conversation about Herschel Walker and his performance with Black voters. There is a conversation about my performance with Black voters, but here's the thing.

My job isn't to persuade them not to vote for Brian Kemp. By and large, they will not. He will get a certain percentage because the certain percentage of every community is conservative.

But my job is to persuade them that voting is worth their effort and worth their time. Because when you just asked me about what's different, the litany of troubles that I just listed, they're attacking Black communities at disproportionate rates. They're attacking AAPI communities, Latino communities, women. And so my responsibility is to persuade those communities that voting matters, that

That the exhaustion that has been about since 2016, that we've got to try one more time. Because this is not about persuading their ideological shift. It is about persuading a behavioral shift. But when we allied that issue, when we allied that group, when we presume it's either activation or change,

transformation. We ignore an entire population where our job is to persuade them that it's worth getting in the game again. So this weekend, you actually were reaching across some areas that

don't vote for you, I think probably. You were on Fox News Sunday mornings earlier this week. Talk about why you went. Are they persuadable to you from your perspective? And let me just say, Shannon Bream did the interview by calling you Stacey Adams a few times, which I found on, I don't know what I found it. Pete Buttigieg did this a lot and has continued to do so. You think it's important to keep talking to this constituency? Absolutely. I win elections every

not just for myself, but for others. And I've been working to help elect people in Georgia for years. And you win by building coalitions. If you only talk to the same people and you only talk about the same issues, then

or you talk about the issues differently when you talk to someone else, then people grow in their distrust, but you also reduce the likelihood of expanding your coalition. So I tell the same story no matter where I am, whether I'm on Fox or MSNBC, if you ask me a question about abortion, I'm going to give you the exact same answer. Whether I'm on The View or I'm on Charlamagne Tha God, I'm going to talk about issues in a way that people can access it, can understand it. And if they decide they don't support me anyway, fine.

Mazel tov. Go with God. But you won't be able to say you didn't hear from me. Is there an advantage to facing the same opponent for a second time? Are you able to anticipate him better? I don't think it's about who he is. I think it's about what the Republican Party is. And what we know is he is emblematic of the Trumpist MAGA themes. He has done everything Donald Trump wanted. The only thing he didn't do was commit treason, but neither did any other governor.

And so he is getting this cloak of mainstream niceties when he is as vicious and as callous and as aggressively opposed to our freedoms as any iteration of Donald Trump. In fact, he was Trump before Trump was. This is the man who said that he was going to round people up in his truck and

He signed as his first major act of legislation an anti-abortion act that strips women of their right to choose before they know they're pregnant. If that is not the same type of draconian and callous anti-woman rhetoric we're hearing from other Republicans, I don't know what is.

But my job is to remind people of who he was before he got the veneer of normalcy. So I was going to ask what your relationship with him is now, but I'm getting a sense of it. And do you think that refusal to overturn Biden's victory in Georgia in 2020, which was a critical state, did you find that admirable at all? He did his job. Every other governor has. Because when people ask that question, my follow-up question is, what was the alternative?

The alternative was committing treason. This was not an act of courage. He simply refused to commit treason. I refuse to commit treason every single day. The current election cycle, we have a lot of people who are saying that. They're saying they will. Hundreds. But my question is, what were the consequences for saying no? That Trump got mad at you? Okay.

You, your job was not to serve. You were not elected by Donald Trump. You were elected by the people of Georgia. Your job is to serve the needs of the people of Georgia. And so refusing to essentially negate their voices is not an act of courage. It's an act of competence.

Do you think it's an asset to him, though? I mean, it seems to be an asset to him is that he's not as crazy as. I think national narrative has framed it that way. That's not it's not how it plays out here. I mean, it's very polarized here. But the national veneer he's been able to assume is what is the most troubling to me.

You were known, very well known for your comedy in Compromise. It's what really attracted me to you in the first place when I interviewed you so long ago. But your ads recently are pretty tough, calling him Brian Kickback Kemp. Do you think it's important to have this kind of campaign happening right now? So let's be clear about the difference. One is actually laying out the contrast with my opponent.

And it is about making certain that people know what he is and what he has done. Contrast matters, especially when you're running against an incumbent. The job I have is to explain why he should be fired from that job.

However, at the exact same time, I've had Republican women do ads for me. I have been the same person the entire time. I have proposed legislation that serves all Georgians. I've gone on Fox News because the comedy that you speak of is the core of how you get things done in Georgia. We are a divided state. And regardless of who wins, I intend to be the victor, but regardless of who wins, Georgia Democrats are going to pick up additional seats in the House and in the Senate.

And the demography of Georgia is going to continue to change. The governor of the state, whoever is elected in November, will be the governor when Georgia becomes a majority-minority state. And that is a critical marker. But things cannot get better for any of our communities if we do not work together.

My job is to say who he is, what he has done, but it's also to say who I am and what I will do. And that's what our commercials are really designed to tell. But they've got to break through the noise and break through an unprecedented slog and onslaught of television ads.

So, but you talked about things you've done. A few weeks ago, a U.S. court judge ruled against fair fight action. Your voting rights group, the court found Georgia election rules covering absentee ballots, voter rolls, and applications do not violate the Constitution or Voting Rights Act, as your group had alleged. This was a judge, Stephen Jones, a U.S. district court judge, who was an Obama appointee. And he said this, and I'd love your response to this. Although Georgia's election system is not perfect, the challenge practices violate neither the Constitution or the Voting Rights Act.

In a 288-page order, he said this, the burden on voters is relatively low and that your group did not provide, quote, direct evidence of a voter who was unable to vote, experienced longer wait times, was confused about voter registration status. How do you respond to this? Because it was a big fight for you and it's been a big issue. Voting rights has been a huge issue for you. And it remains one. So let's begin with what the lawsuit alleged at the very beginning.

We had a litany of issues. And in anticipation of the case moving forward, the state legislature in 2019 actually responded to a number of our initial allegations, including replacing machines that we alleged were

were improperly used. They made changes to the voter purge system. They made changes to the absentee ballot system. That's one of the complaints that we heard from Donald Trump, that we actually forced improvements on a range of issues. We forced Brad Raffensperger to restore 22,000 people he purged from the rolls. For people who don't know, Brad Raffensperger is the Secretary of State. And so...

The litany of things that we were able to accomplish because of this litigation, I think has been lost a bit to the annals of memory because it's taken four years to move this litigation through. There were three remaining claims that Judge Jones adjudicated. And on those three remaining claims, under the Gringell standard, which existed before 2021, he would have found the state of Georgia in violation of the Voting Rights Act, Section 2.

However, because of a Supreme Court that continues to weaken the Voting Rights Act, they attacked Section 2 with the Brnovich decision. That's named after the attorney general in Arizona. That one weakened Section 2 and said that racial bias is

Right.

Right. So you're saying your opinion is that there are problems with voting rights in Georgia still, but the standard is too low nationally for those gaps to be recognized. That's exactly it. Let me talk about Raffensperger very briefly. He did more than not commit treason. He spoke out rather more than anybody in that state, I think, except for one or two other people.

on the Republican side. But Secretary of State Raffensperger put out a statement after the ruling saying, quote, stolen election and voter suppression claims by Stacey Abrams were nothing but poll-tested rhetoric not supported by facts and evidence. He's basically accusing you of misinformation. Can you respond to that? He lies. I mean, that's part of my challenge with the lionization of Brad Raffensperger. So let's be clear about who he is.

He is the Secretary of State of the state of Georgia. He purged 22,000 voters and we had to sue him to get those voters restored. He is the person who used the system in Georgia to deny naturalized citizens the right to vote. He is the person who uses a felony match system to disproportionately harm Black people. And he supported legislation in 2021,

that allows unlimited challenges to voter registration. And right now in the state of Georgia, 64,000 people have to prove they have the right to vote because Brad Raffsenberger supported expanding this opportunity without requiring either that the communities that are being attacked have the ability to have resources to fight back,

He did not work and fight to make certain additional resources remain available. He is a part of the system. And what he is upset about is that we forced his hand on a number of issues. But here's the other piece of this that I need people to hear very clearly. Brad Rauschenberger is not a good actor. Election denial has two pieces. And we have been myopically focused on the outcome side. That's what Donald Trump yelled about, that he didn't win and thus the outcome is a problem.

But when you deny access, that is equally pernicious because you don't have to manipulate the outcome if you can constrain the access. And any secretary of state like Brad Raffsenberger, who will work so hard to deny access, does not deserve the mantle of being a democracy defender. And so once again, getting credit for one moment of either bravery or

or clarity does not dispel years of bad behavior. So you're saying he's not good, better than the alternatives? What we need to understand is that our standards cannot be so low that we no longer have standards. I have no claim to an outcome.

But every American should be fighting for the right to access for eligible voters. That's the challenge. And when we lower our standards, we lower the likelihood of our democracy surviving long term because every inch we go down, that means fewer and fewer people believe that it's worth the sustained belief system that we call democracy.

So let's talk about what they're voting for. The role of abortion is going to play in motivating voters, especially since July of this year, after a series of court proceedings, Georgia put a 2019 law that in effect bans abortions after the sixth week of pregnancy. How big a deal is that going to be for voters, for businesses, economics? It is a crisis.

Georgia has 82 counties with no OBGYN, 18 counties with no family practicing doctor, and nine counties without a physician at all. We are losing a level one trauma center, which means we're going to lose even more doctors this month. And we know that women are not going to come to a state where if they get pregnant, they have no choices. And the election in Georgia is not just critical for Georgia.

I am the only candidate right now who has the likelihood of being able to reverse and repeal this law. If I don't, you cannot get an abortion from Texas and Oklahoma all the way across to North Carolina. North Carolina is the first state you get to. From Tennessee down to Florida. That's 56% of the Black population in this country.

which means for women, for people of color, it is dangerous for a woman to live in Georgia. And for those who say, well, you can just leave, Georgia is the largest landmass state in east of the Mississippi, east of Texas. Florida is the other one. And trying to get out of here to get to help is nearly impossible if you don't have resources.

And we have some of the highest poverty levels. And so it's dangerous for women, but it's also economically, we could lose a $4.4 billion industry. The film and TV industry. And we've already seen signs that this could happen. We lost Music Midtown because of Brian Kemp's gun laws. We lost the MLB game because of his anti-voter laws. And we are going to lose the industry that is hiring and employing more than 90,000 people because of his abortion law.

So you believe this remains a potent issue in this election? Absolutely. All right. Let me ask you then about the comment you made. You knew I was going to ask about this. A few weeks ago, you made a comment about abortion, that the fetal heartbeat that can be heard at six weeks is manufactured and that it's used to control women. There is no such thing as a heartbeat at six weeks. It is a manufactured sound designed to convince people that men have the right to take control of a woman's body and

Let me just say, I was pregnant and I heard that fetal heartbeat at that time. And it was one of the most important moments of my life, I have to say. And I understood that it was an electrical impulse, but it was life. It was that my child was...

was probably viable, and it was a big deal. I get technically you're correct, but I have to say, as a mother, I didn't like hearing that. I think left, right, and center, a lot of people might say that. Can you talk about that comment? And would you say something different now? The issue that I have is that the laws in Georgia and across this country have been premised on this moment.

If you were trying to get an abortion, even prior to HP 481, across the South, across the country, one of the predicate acts that you have is that you are compelled to listen to an ultrasound before you can make this decision.

This came about because Ian Donald, an OBGYN in Scotland, said, let's use this technology that was actually being used for shipbuilding. And he worked with an engineer to use it to do ultrasounds on women. This was in 1956. And he said part of his intention was to dissuade them from abortions.

And because it's an electrical impulse, the machinery has to produce a sound. And the intention was to accomplish exactly what you felt. It puts into real time this idea and it gives it shape. But we know it's an embryo at that moment. And for those for whom this is what they want, you should absolutely celebrate it.

But when it is used as a weapon against women, when it is used to manipulate them and also to justify denying their choices, denying them healthcare,

It is absolutely critical that we speak honestly about what happened, especially when it becomes part of the narrative language we use to justify denying medical care to women. Let me ask you, though, why make this point, given so many women are so emotional who do want to have children about this moment? It trips you up into somewhere where science and emotion don't meet. Even if you're correct, technically correct, was it a mistake? It was not.

I was sitting with a group of students who were using language, misinformation to justify behavior. And in that moment, and as a matter of conversation, I do not intend and I am absolutely cognizant of the fact that there are women for whom this is a transformative moment. As a woman, I never want to deny anyone their choice or their joy.

But when that language and that framing is used to justify stripping them of their autonomy and of medical care, we absolutely have to talk about it. We absolutely have to push back against language.

Any attempt to justify denying women abortion care and medical care. I think you've explained that much better. I think the Republicans have seized on it, though, what you said. There is nothing I will. But here's the thing. I was sitting with students and the challenge of that moment was that they only show you a clip of what happened.

We went on to have a very strong conversation about why this matters in Georgia. And I was talking to Spelman women. I get it. I get it. I get it. But clips are how campaigns go. Clips are how campaigns go. But if we can't have honest conversations with young people because we're afraid that someone's going to clip it, then we're going to start slandering.

not only circumscribing what we say, we're going to start limiting what we think. Fair point. Speaking of abortion, what do you think of the controversy around Herschel Walker? You mentioned that he and you are held to different standards. How is that? How are you thinking about that? The hypocrisy of the Republican Party. I mean, Brian Kemp actually responded to what Walker said by saying he's not supposed to be involved in people's personal choices. So the governor who imposed an abortion ban on

And interfering with the personal choices of women says it's not his job to interfere in other people's personal choices. He only means in men's personal choices. He has no problem interfering in the personal choices of women. So for me, this is about the hypocrisy of both men. Herschel Walker is getting the brunt of the attack. But Brian Kemp is the person who has actually got the power to do something about it in Georgia. And he has wielded that power to hurt women in the state.

Were you surprised by Walker here? No. As these revelations. But I give very little thought to Herschel Walker or the other side. My job is to protect women, protect our rights, protect our freedoms. And there is more than enough attack coming from Brian Kemp that the individual actions of one person. The hypocrisy is not surprising because hypocrisy is the raison d'etre right now that I see of the Republican Party. We'll be back in a minute.

So I want to do a lightning round to talk about different demographics and campaign strategy. For Black men, your recent strategy is focusing on this group, although recent polls suggest that since 2018, your favorability in this demo has dropped eight points. How are you looking? How do you win that back? My Black performance numbers are identical to Senator Raphael Warnock. However,

The other reality is this isn't recent. I have been doing this since 2018, and I was chastised in 2018 for talking to communities of color, specifically Black and brown people, Black men in particular. I simply continued what I did then, and I'm doing it now. But I know that Black men are the most likely to be distrustful of politicians and of government because they are the most likely to be disproportionately harmed in education, health care, housing, and employment.

So not vote at all, so that you're worried that they're not persuadable. So, okay, white voters, we know you're targeting Black, Latino, Asian American voters along with young people. How are you reaching white voters? Can you win without them? I wouldn't want to. I have to build a coalition. I'm going to continue to talk to voters across the board. What people are concerned about is that I actually identify white

the communities and the needs those communities have because we are not a monolithic society and it is disingenuous to pretend that we have identical needs. We all have the same basic frames, education, housing, healthcare, and making a good living, but what barriers we face and what access we need differs depending on the structure of community and that's what I talk about with every one of these groups. Okay, rural voters, same? Did the same. I talk to everyone and I go everywhere.

Do you think you need to tamp down your national popularity? You certainly got a lot of it. Do you think that's a problem in Georgia for you? You're very famous across the nation. You almost, you're a vice presidential consideration.

I have been very intentional about being local in our conversations for the last few, since the launch of the campaign. And that has created this notion that I'm less popular or that I'm in trouble. No, I was intentionally quieter because in 18, we had to be loud to get attention. And this year we need to be very directed in our conversations so that people understand what's at stake and what the opportunities are. All right.

All right, let's talk nationally and then we'll be done. You've been in talks with the Biden White House to have the president on the trail with you. Will that happen? And is Biden, how do you look at, obviously you think he's a help with Georgia voters. President Biden has offered to be helpful. We, I support him. I invite anyone to come to Georgia who can help us win. But as you know, there are 36 governor's races. There are more than 50 Senate races that are being contested. We've got a lot of ground to cover and a lot of things to do, but I know that I've got his support. And the reality is,

The resources that he has provided to the state are the reason we're in the position to do better. And that's something I am happy to tout. Would you like him on the trail? Certainly. Who would you, who would be your ideal person to bring to Georgia? I mean, I'd love, sorry, I'm about to make a comment about my own personal needs, but I'm open to everyone. This is about convincing people. You just said I'd love, I'd love who? Well, I was going to say Idris Elba, but that he's not a voter in Georgia. Okay.

How about William Shatner? How about William Shatner? I'm good with my choices. Okay, Idris, it is. I'll stick with Idris. Does that change with Biden? Do you think he should run in 2024? Yes. If he doesn't run, would you? No. No. Okay. I will be the governor of Georgia. That will be my job. Okay. Speaking of running, what if you aren't the governor of Georgia? I refuse to consider that possibility.

I'm running to win. Okay. Speaking of running, I'm still curious why you didn't run for Senate in 2020. You really wanted to run for governor. Explain that for people. Why? The governor is the most important job people don't understand.

People talk about the presidency, which has national implications, and they talk about mayors, which have hyper-local, but especially in the South, it is the governor that decides whether the resources sent by the federal government make it to local communities. It's the governor who decides the rights and privileges that we have. And with the Supreme Court, with Clarence Thomas making it his mission to dismantle most of the federal protections for the LGBTQ plus community, for women, it will be governors who decide. And I'm going to give one very quick example, I promise.

The public accommodations law 303 creative, that case currently before the Supreme Court would eviscerate protection based on sexual orientation for public accommodations, meaning that you can be denied housing in a hotel. You can get kicked out of a bar. You can get kicked out of a restaurant. They don't have to provide you with service in a business you visit.

Georgia is one of five states that does not have a public accommodations law. So if the federal law falls in Georgia, the governor will make the decision. And the current governor, as opposed to same-sex marriage, he has supported religious freedom laws, which would basically echo this public accommodations law.

Governors matter. And if we want democracy to continue, we know there's already conversation in Georgia about shifting from a winner-take-all state when it comes to the Electoral College and moving to a congressional district approach, which is what Maine and Nebraska do. Under that scenario, instead of winning 16 Electoral College votes in 2020 for Joe Biden, he would have only gotten six.

All right. Our last question on this show is always asking our guests for some advice. Do you have any advice for Dr. Raphael Warnock, who I've interviewed, who is ahead of Walker, though not by much? I think that Senator Warnock is doing exactly what he needs to do. He is telling the people what he's done. And I look forward to serving with him as his governor while he is my senator. Keep doing what you're doing, basically. So keep doing what you're doing, basically, what you're saying. Anyway, Stacey Abrams, thank you so much. I appreciate it. It's all right.

She was feisty. Feisty. Feisty. CeCe Abrams is a really interesting and evolving political figure, as you'll see by this. She does want to come to comedy, but I think she sort of had it, like in terms of the attacks. And I think it probably, she is quite resentful that Brian Kemp and Brad Raffensperger, by extension, get involved.

a pass because they did their job. I think she's correct. If you actually take it apart at the same time in this sea of traitors, essentially, being a not-traitor makes you unusual. But I think Brad Raffensperger went further than she initially acknowledged. Not only did he not commit treason, he also released the phone call. He came out and became a reasonable Republican talking

about this. I think her point was that it was easy to do the right thing in that case. Meanwhile, over here, he's doing some bad things. I think that was her point. I think the one area I wish we had spoken about a little bit more is her national appeal, because there is this trade-off between kind of your national recognition and your resonance with local voters. And in this age of authenticity, people see that as kind of at odds. Problematic, yeah. Yeah, we've seen that with Beto O'Rourke.

I think she's not like Beto. Beto really liked the national attention. I'm not so sure she liked it that much. She came up in a much more organic way and slower, like slower rise than Beto. So it feels very different. Beto came out and it was very viral. He declared himself fantastic. And I don't think she does that. Let me tell you, I mean, I'd love Idris Elba to come hang out with me any day of the week, but he is not going to help her get some Georgia voters, to be clear. But hopefully he'll be Bond, but maybe not. We'll see. We'll see. That would be great. Yeah.

So Stacey Abrams had some advice for Raphael Warnock, and it's Thursday today, which is our advice day. So we have an audience question to play for your advice, Kara. This is from the 1-888-KARA-PLEASE hotline. Let's play the clip.

Hi, Cara. It's Max from California. I would love to understand how you have gotten to the point in your life where you can provide your opinion or your insight without really giving two fucks about what the other person is saying.

thinking about that opinion or insight. I admire the heck out of you and hence the reason why I've tried this three times. So that's my question. How do you do it? How do you get confident in that opinion that you're providing someone? Thanks. Bye. I get a lot of these.

Hi, Max from California. Thank you for trying three tries. That's one thing is persistence is one of my best qualities. Irritation is what other people would call it. But nonetheless, it's not that I don't give two fucks about what the other person is thinking about. I actually don't give 10 fucks about what they're thinking about. But that's not actually true either.

It's not not caring, it's caring a lot. And I think that's what people mistake when women especially are forthright. I don't not care what people think, is I care. And so I wanna get my position out pretty strongly. And I'm confident in it. I also don't talk a lot about things I don't know a lot about.

I mean, I have an opinion about everything, but if I don't really know what I'm talking about, I tend not to. So I try to like learn up on whatever I'm talking about. I do think women are told to be nice all the time. And I was somehow did not get that memo. It doesn't mean I mean, I just say what I think. One thing I always tell the people is there's a lot less consequence for doing that than you think. Women are told there's a lot of consequence. So anyway. Yeah.

You might not have gotten the memo, Cara, but I know having met your mother that she sent it to you. She probably like faxed it to you daily. Yeah, yeah. She just didn't get it. I didn't get that memo either. Yeah, you did not. Neema Raza did not get that memo and sometimes I wish she would. Oh, come on, Cara. I'm a fountain of opinions. You are.

And Kara is a fountain of opinion. Let me just tell you one thing. Let me give you credit. Literally, I'll say, no, I'm not doing this. So clearly, and most people, they're shut down. You're like, but, and then but, and then like but. And it's a great quality. Persistence. Persistence. And I win, Kara, as you said on Pivot. Often. Sometimes, not always.

Often. I think you said always right. She's always right. I'm going to play the clip. We're going to play the clip after the credits, okay? I take it back. No retractions. You were often right. Kara, a fountain of not compliments, but advice, opinions. And if you want them, you can call 1-888-KARA-PLEASE. That's 1-888-KARA-PLZ.

Today's show was produced by Naima Raza, Blake Neschik, Kristen Castro-Rossell, and Rafaela Seward. Rick Kwan engineered this episode. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, pat yourself on the back. If not, I'm shocked. I'm just shocked. Go wherever you listen to podcasts right now, search for On With Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Kara Swisher from New York Magazine and Vox Media and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

Great. And let's play that clip where Kara said I was always right. Thanks. Yeah, let's not. This is producer Blake Neshek. We did a fact check and well, let's roll the tape. Naima Raza, who I worked on Sway with, is coming over to work with me on this. Naima, she's a fantastic producer and one of the only people I literally let tell me what to do. Very few people. And she's often, I argue with her about something and then she's always right. And I'm like, oh, you're right. And I never do that. I have to say.