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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!
Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is Ron DeSantis, governor of Florida, but now with 100% more Ohio pride. Just kidding. What an idiot. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher with 100% San Francisco pride, always. And I'm Naeem Arraza. I'm going to actually go out on a limb and say I understand where DeSantis is coming from about being an Ohioan and a Pennsylvanian because...
It's kind of ripe for his national strategy. And also, it's like an Italian-American saying, they feel more. It's like Emily in Paris. Emily is not in Paris. She's on Paris. She's not in Paris. Emily is a Parisian character. No. He is Emily in Paris of the GOP. That's what he is. Well, I like
It's like an Italian-American saying they feel more Italian than American. No, they don't. I'm Italian-American. My mother is 100% Italian. I don't think we consider ourselves Italian. We're Americans who came from Italy. You just made a lot of Italians very sad by saying that. Whatever. Anyway. They're Americans. You're a San Franciscan. That's how you identify. How is it being back? I love it.
even though there's an atmospheric river trying to drown me, but otherwise it's fine. We have to get you some stilts or something. Okay. You consider it home, right? Yes, I do. I love it here. It speaks to me. The city speaks to me and always has since I moved here in the mid-90s. I grew up on the East Coast, but, and I like it there. I like New York. I like Washington, but I love San Francisco. I'm very happy here. Where do you consider home? I don't know. I grew up everywhere, so I'm a bit of a mutt. I guess home is where my shoes are, Kara. My feet are. My shoes are. I
I feel like, you know, I feel at home with people. And there are certain places that communities that feel like home. New York, London feel homish to me because they are full of people who are, you know, trying to make something happen. They're very diverse, very cosmopolitan. So they feel like home to me. Mm-hmm.
Anyway, our guest today is someone who's written a little bit about this concept of home and talks about it to us today, Lawrence Wright. He is the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist behind so many great stories, including Going Clear, the expose on Scientology, which was a New Yorker article and became a Gibney doc, a book.
And he recently, Larry Wright recently wrote this New Yorker story on his own hometown of Austin. Yeah, I've been a long admirer of him, especially his stuff around 9-11. And he's just a beautiful writer. And he once again does a great job articulating what's happening in the state of Texas, which is, you know, becoming very popular among people I've covered. And a lot of people are moving there. There's sort of a push-pull between California and Texas going on.
I'm a longtime fan of Larry, too. Actually, when I was out in Austin filming, Richard Linklater recommended his book to me, God Save Texas, which helped me make sense of the state I was in and also of the city I was in in Austin. And I was a little surprised by this article, this New Yorker piece. Why? Because...
I think that there were times where he felt a little like boomery or curmudgeonly when he talks about the rising rents and the traffic. Like that's the whole goal of a city, I think, in some way. Also, Austin's not precisely Texas, is it? It's not. It's not. So, you know, it's like saying Miami's Florida. It's not quite the same thing. Yeah. But that was the part I liked is the part where he speaks about kind of an invasion of Austin. I think he calls them exiles coming in. So, yeah.
Elon Musk headquarters, this new town that Elon is apparently building near Bastrop. Peter Attia, who's like the Met foreman biohacking doctor, and then Joe Rogan moving there, as well as Barry Weiss starting the Heterodox University of Austin. You know some of these characters like Elon Musk and Joe Lonsdale. Yeah.
How do you feel about them leaving San Francisco and going to Austin? Don't let the door hit you on the way out. That's what I say. Cities change, then change and morph constantly. I have no problem with cities changing. And so they don't like it here after making all their money and they want lower taxes. You know, go for it, guys. That's what matters to you.
Do you think personalities that are this big can reshape a city? I mean, New York's changed 103 times in its history, right? So every city does that. And every city shifts and morphs. And sometimes it goes through good periods and bad periods. And that's what's great about a city. It changes. And that's my favorite part of living in cities. Yeah, it's a real living organism. Although certain states are trying to quash it, like Florida and Texas. They're passing laws at the state level to make it harder for blue cities within their spread states to pass local laws. Good luck.
People change. People move. People travel. They can't stop. You can't stop the motion of the ocean, as they say. Did Austin feel weird to you still? Oh, I never liked all those mottos of cities. I know they do that there, keep Austin weird, but those seem a little labored to me. I never liked those things, but whatever. What is ASAP's motto? It would never say. It is weird. Bring Kara Swisher back. No, it just is weird. It doesn't have to say keep San Francisco weird. It just continues to be weird, and that's what I like about it.
I think Austin's not weird. It's just open-minded. It was my experience of it. It was open-minded. Yeah. Anyways, let's take a quick break and we'll come back with the interview with Larry Wright. It was recorded in front of a live audience at the Slack stage at South by Southwest earlier this month.
On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash Vox. It's on!
We have so much I want to talk about. Your article, Lawrence wrote a piece in The New Yorker about Austin titled The Astonishing Transformation of Austin. It was somewhat scathing, but I want to start with your book, God Saves Texas. What sets Texas apart from the rest of the United States and Austin apart from Texas? Well...
Texas has always had a sense of itself as being separate from the U.S. And I think part of it is, you know, we were a republic, you know,
So is Vermont. It's not like it's unique in the history of the United States. But the idea that we were a separate nation at one point is part of the mythology. And I don't know, Texas has a thing about mythology, like cowboys. You know, the whole trail drive thing lasted for about 12 years. And yet, you know, it continues to...
The way everybody's dressed with the jeans and the, you know, you'll see the pearl button dress shirts and stuff like that. All that cowboy lore comes from, you know, 150 years ago when when they were, you know, cattle drives up to Kansas City. Mm hmm.
I don't know of another state that is so soaked in mythology, the oil man, the cowboy and all that. And in the sense of freedom and so on, it's all mythologized so deeply. And as part of what attracts people to Texas, they're drawn to it. Then there's Austin, Texas.
And Austin really, it's not counter Texas. It's a spin on Texas. And the fact that it is also the capital city
As a certain tension, because the city, if you drew a line from Washington, where are you living to San Francisco, where you used to live, everything south of that line, Austin is probably the most liberal entity in that whole southern tier of the United States in Washington.
probably the most, well, close to being the most conservative state in the United States. So that tension is very dynamic. It's an intriguing, frustrating, and full of animosity relationship between the state and the city. At the same time, you have the Capitol down here,
half the guys in the capital that are railing against Austin went to UT and they, you know, they love the city and that's one of the reasons they're here. So it's an interesting spoiled children type of relationship that we have. Which one is spoiled? Both of them. Right. Okay. All right. So when you think about that, it's not unusual to have a very liberal city. It happens in North Carolina, there's Georgia, Atlanta. Right. When you think about
what's happening. You're a transplant yourself, although you're a longtime transplant, right? I moved to San Francisco in 1995, and I consider myself a San Franciscan. Two of my kids were born in San Francisco. Well, I grew up in Abilene and Dallas. So you're a Texan. Yeah. I was born in Oklahoma City, but so was a lot of Texans. And what drew you here from those places? I was on the run from Texas. When I...
When I graduated high school in Dallas, I just wanted to get as far away from Texas as I could. And culturally, the most distant place from Dallas is actually not so far away. It's New Orleans. So I went to school in New Orleans and then, you know, lived in Egypt and Boston, you know.
All over the place. But in 1979, I was writing an article for Look magazine about the 12 men that walked on the moon. And one of them happened to be walking on New Braunfels, which is this little German town south of here. And I flew into Austin. And in New Braunfels, they put me up in this Prince Sohm Inn, this little B&B. And there was a Rathskeller. Mm-hmm.
And I thought Saturday night in the Braunfels, I'll go down and have a brat and a beer and walk around the town square. And that'll be Saturday night in Braunfels. And we're down to the Ratzkeller and the restaurant critic for Texas Monthly, Frank Bailey, who's Kay Bailey Hutchinson's younger brother,
He was there and he scotched my plan. So we're going to go on an adventure. And we went out to roadhouses. And there was this one steakhouse where you order steak by the inch. And he ordered a three-inch steak, rare. It bled all over the plate. It was one of the most disgusting dinners I ever had. But then we went to a music, this Green Hall. A lot of you have been there, I'm sure. Yeah.
Asleep at the Wheel was playing. A young man named George Strait was opening. And, you know, just the songs, the music, the food.
It felt like home. Right away. You can't substitute home. No, I agree with you. Yeah. One of the things that's great about this is you talk about finding a home. I actually do feel that way about San Francisco. I remember driving into San Francisco when I moved there to cover the nascent internet companies in the early 90s. And I drove right into this Folsom Street Fair, which is all a leather thing. And it was hot.
It smelled like sweaty leather. And there were all these people that should have been inside in a dark place outside. And I thought, I like this place. I like this place. It was perfect. And when you moved here, there was an Austin tech influx during one period that then just died.
The first one. And there was Dell and, of course, Apple's been here and stuff like that. It's always been present. But one of the things that was part of Austin was this Keep Austin Weird thing and then the fog one with Oat Willie. Talk a little bit about that because that was sort of it was both twee, self-conscious and actually true at the same time.
And is that gone? Because that was your period of coming here. Yeah, and there are other cities like Portland that aspires to keep itself weird too. And in some ways is weirder than Austin, I suppose. Yes, indeed. But there's something paradoxical about having somebody tell you to stay weird. That's weird in itself, right? Yes, indeed. And I kind of bridle at the idea that this is a commandment for Austin. But it's...
Austin had a funkiness and an attitude. I moved here in 1980. It was about the size of Lexington, Kentucky is now. So it was a small town. If you got on an airplane, you knew somebody on the airplane. And also, if you were flying out of state, you had to fly to Houston or Dallas. And the tallest building, I was just walking around.
past the Scarborough and the Littlefield building, which are down here. They used to be the tallest buildings west of the Mississippi, nine stories. And now their building was supposed to be the tallest building in Texas is 80 stories. It's just, it's crazy. So what happened to the Weir?
This doesn't seem weird at all. It seems like every city... Listen, you're the one that interviews Elon Musk all the time. I've got to say. I think we've taken an advance in weirdness now. That's true. That's different. I think it's just a variation on the weirdness we used to have, but it's not like we're... I think it's bizarre. I would use the word bizarre, not weird for him. But go ahead. We'll get to him in a minute. Okay. Well... Also appalling, shameless, and...
Racist. Maybe misogynistic, homophobic. Go ahead. Sorry. All of those qualities, I think. One of the things that's happening in Austin is that we're attracting different kinds of weirdness, like the University of Austin that is this newly announced thing. Very counter to...
the extremely liberal Austin culture, which I think is probably healthy. I think Austin could use a little dose of counter-wokeness. But
The people that seem to be drawn to it are a little strange. Yeah, yeah. I call it the grievance industrial complex, and they do rather well. And it's not as if the liberal Austin doesn't have its own set of grievances. Right, right. So in terms of, you know, weirdness, a lot of the grievances are a little strange. Yeah. And then there's, what's wrong with growing, for instance? You know, the
I feel the nostalgia like everybody does. I miss the little town. But on the other hand, look at all the jobs that are being created. There's a lot of excitement about work.
was happening in the city. Let's talk about what, for whom and for why, because you talked about that a lot in the piece, like who does benefit from that? You've been an Austin romantic, I would say, but you write in the new Yorker article, my town once celebrated for its laid back weirdness is now turbocharged in a megalopolis being changed by exiles from places like Silicon Valley. And then you said it has the place in this vibe of a TED talk, which made me laugh. So what is that? That's not, those aren't positive,
No. It's like my wife. I hate her now kind of thing. You know, I'm in a band and the tell them what the name is. Who do? OK. Sunday night, this Sunday night, 530 to 730 at Skylar Clowns. One of the great one of the last remaining great dives in Austin. This this town used to be fantastic.
flooded with cheap little places where music was being played. And people came because of that. When we first moved here,
You know, if you went out of state and somebody said, you know, where are you from? I said, I'm Texas. And you get a look, as everybody who has traveled out of Texas and has a Texan window understand, but we're in Texas. Austin. Oh, Austin. You know, it's forgivable. Yeah. And...
It had this reputation of being cool, whereas it really wasn't cool. It was just extremely relaxed. And, you know, Slacker was the name of Rick Linklater's movie. Matthew McConaughey was in. It captured this kind of absence of tension, you know, just it was. But everybody in the country knew something about Austin and what they knew was that it was cool and it wasn't. And.
Yet it had this ER, which persists to this day. So Austin was seen as being a music city and people came because of the music. Austin was perceived as, even before it was really a tech city, as being a tech hub and people came. But they were attracted to the image of Austin, which was an imaginary place. And they made it
More like the place that they imagined by coming here, except for the fact that they eradicated all the weirdness, you know, all the funkiness. So little little places that were so characteristic of Austin that were charming added a lot to the sense of intimacy and culture creation at the moment right there, right in front of you. Right.
that has largely been eradicated. I think people thought about San Francisco. They thought about, there's a lot of cities that that happens to. Cities change and grow, right? This is the way it is. And yours is, you know,
you know, you could almost go to any city in America and they're a lot like other cities. You know, the same thing. Don't you feel, Kara, that there's a, you know, there's like sentinel cities and Austin is one of those, you know, but as Austin goes up on the seesaw, there are other places that go down, like, you know, California losing population. It's a little overblown, but go ahead. Yes. And New York has been draining people for decades now. It's,
There's a lot of...
dynamic tension in the country. I think some of it has to do, you know, a lot of it during the pandemic, a lot of the tech bros moved to Miami was one of their places. And I was like, get a boat. Uh, because someday that's not going to be there. Um, and then they moved Austin and they went, went on more about Miami than they did about Austin, went on and on. And sort of one of the things they did was sort of keep kicking San Francisco on their way out. And at one time, two years into it, um,
They kept talking about San Francisco. And I think I wrote one of them. I said, you know, your girlfriend broke up with you. Stop talking about her. Like they couldn't stop talking about San Francisco and how much better it is where they were because of the deep and abiding insecurity of most of those people. And so and it just persists. So let's talk about what's happened now, because one of the things that's occurred is as these people have moved out.
And I know most of these people very well. They went on and on about quality of life. And I just thought, you greedy fucks, taxes. That's what they were doing. There's not a dollar that...
you don't want to hang on to that you've got. And I think that was most attractive to all of them. They'd never say it out loud. There's no question they're tax refugees. Yeah. I was like, move to Monaco. I don't care. Just like, you know, a lot of these people that have come, especially from the Bay Area, they leave with a lot of anger. They do. And one guy said to me, I thought it was a very candid moment. He said, we could have helped San Francisco.
We could have made a difference, but we didn't. And I hope we don't do that to Austin. - Well, they also benefited enormously from being in California and then they kicked it on the way out and then insulted it.
at the same time and had to go on and on about it. His point was, you know, the local people didn't benefit. You know, we could have turned to, you know, we could have done sponsors, mentoring in high schools. Yes, they could. You know, all these things that they could have done but didn't do. And the income disparity grew so great
You know, a lot of the problems in the Bay Area we're facing right here now. That's correct. And, you know, people are... A lot of the musicians are moving to the Lockhart and so on because they can't afford to be in Austin anymore. Well, one of the issues was they talk... They like to insult the problems, but never... You know, you had... Many years ago, you had Wells Fargo there. It used to be financial things. They contributed to the city and lived in the city. They built these castles in the sky with their kombucha stands on the 10th floor and never came down. And then...
insulted it when of course that was a problem right and didn't get what they want it was a complex issue um and uh it was a lot of talking about problems and not solutions i would say um i had thought about running for mayor that's why i was like really you're gonna insult kept you from doing that um london reed won and i she's a native san franciscan and she's doing a
good job at a very difficult situation. And I didn't like the previous mayor who ended up dying in a safe way, but I didn't like what he was doing with tech people. I thought he was working too closely with them and giving away everything. And so I felt like I could kick them in the teeth a little better than most people. - I bet you could. - I bet I do. I bet I do actually, that's my job. I have to say San Francisco is better now that they're gone. You're like, oh, they're gone. Thank you, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
People don't realize another person that's from here is Alex Jones, and you talk about it in the piece. Talk about that, because that's homegrown. Yeah.
I first met him, Rick Linklater had a party for one of his movies and my book about Al Qaeda, The Looming Tower, had just come out. And so Rick has a mischievous side to him. And he said, Larry, I want to introduce you to my friend Alex Jones. Oh, wow. He'd been in a couple of Rick's movies, cast as a raving maniac in a cab and whatever.
And so he introduced me and just sort of sat back and watched what would happen when Alex started talking about 9-11. And, you know, I said, well, you're totally nuts. You know, that didn't happen. You know, it wasn't a conspiracy of the CIA to destroy the World Trade Center and everything.
He unfortunately gave birth to this 9-11 truther stuff. And, you know, they it became a nightmare. Whenever I was giving speeches, they would be showing up as if I was a part of the conspiracy. Right. But.
He was really produced by, you know, this public access TV. Here. And he got a show. Madeleine Murray O'Hare was also one of the—she was the atheist. Yeah, which you wrote a great piece on. Yeah. She sued me for using her famousness without her permission, which was a—
It didn't go anywhere, fortunately. You win in a libel suit, right? I tell you what. Yeah. So the characters have long been here, like these kind of sort of larger than life, egomaniacal, largely shameful, those people that, you know. That was very much the weirdness that we were talking about in Austin is, you know, characterized by,
you know, sometimes the weirdness is wicked. And in the case of Alex Jones, I had an interesting conversation with Joe Rogan. Who lives here. Who lives here. And, and,
I had watched his interview with Alex Jones. I said it was very intriguing. And he said, what do you think about him? I said, I think he's a sociopath. He said, no, he's not. He's got a head injury. And he said, I was a cage fighter. I met a lot of guys with head injuries. And he said on the show –
He asked Alex, have you ever had a head injury? And Alex goes, well, when I was in high school, these kids turned me upside down and banged my head on the curb, broke the concrete. You know, you had no doubt I'm brain damaged.
And I thought, well, I would take a cage fighter to ask a question like that, you know, and so maybe that's his problem. Lawrence, I don't care how many times it was dropped on his head. He's a fucking asshole. And he doesn't have lots of people. Lots of people were dropped on their head and don't do what they do. And I hope they take every dime away from him. And he ends his life in me. We'll be back in a minute.
You zoomed in on a few characters. Let's do a lightning round about their migration requirements. Linda Avey, who I know very well, 23andMe co-founder, said she fell for the sentiment to keep Austin weird, but also wanted to leave the Bay Area because firefighters, teachers, fabric community couldn't live there anymore.
Talk about her. I like Linda. Yeah, she's a delight. And one of the people I'm really glad has moved into our community. Partly, she has a grandchild here. And that was one of the things that drew her here. And we're birders. So Linda's also a birder. She is. Yeah. So that's been fun to get to know her. And she seems to have good sentiments for wanting to be here. She's not sour on something. She just likes it here. There are a lot of people that are...
you know, come here with good intentions. And, you know, we're in a period of, let's see. Yeah. Emma Stone, the actress who bought your friend's home, is now completely remodeling it.
That's another thing you talk about, the real estate situation. I looked at the prices here. I thought, wow, it's expensive to live here. I'm so glad I live in the Bay Area. I actually thought that. Did you? Yeah. Well, we're headed in that direction. And that's another thing that was, you know, when we moved here, there were, you know, little two-bedroom bungalows. That was pretty much what characterized the housing stock. And people that, you know, the economic...
resources here were the university and the capital. So there were teachers and bureaucrats that populated Austin. And still, despite that, became weird. Right. And these bring money, but it also remodels places where people can't live, speaking of firefighters, teachers, and everybody else. I don't blame Emma Stone for that, but that's the
trend, right? As they start to move in. What's the neighborhood that they took over that was a former mostly African-American neighborhood? East Austin. Right. African-American and Hispanic. And
It was African-American and Hispanic because city policy to move them out of the white part of town and make the east side. This is 1928 master plan. And so it created a segregated city, the interracial highway. And that has haunted Austin's legacy, I think, since then.
So Joe Rogan, you mentioned, he's, according to the Austin American-Statesman, he recently transformed the Ritz into an anti-woke comedy club. They're going to make everything. Like, they just had woke AI. They're going to make...
I'm sure some serve pancake is woke. They like to slap that on there. And they set the grievance industrial complex. Austin's a perfect place to come to be anti-woke. Right. Because it is woke-ish. It's not woke. What does that mean to you? I'd love you to think. You're a Pulitzer Prize winning writer. What does that word mean to you? Because the opposite of woke is asleep. Yeah. Well, I think that the idea of- Think about it.
is that certain social rules have been rewritten. And there's a tremendous amount of investment on the part of a lot of all of America in staying the way we were. I'm not opposed to the new rules, although there is some absurdity. And also, I think as a middle-aged... No, no, I'm no longer middle-aged. As an old white man...
I'm glad I had the career I had when I had it. It's a lot more difficult. And, you know, making space for everybody makes it harder for people who had, you know, the spotlight. Right. So, you know, those kinds of things are changing.
And then lastly, there's a whole bunch of people. Joe Lonsdale, who I know very well, Palantir co-founder, who you say, quote, typifies the moral complexity of the current culture. Explain to me why that is.
Well, Palantir is, you know, probably the thing you would point to the most. And it's, you know, it's a software that's been used to track people. Yeah. But it's also been used. What could go wrong? Go ahead. But it also has been used very effectively in Ukraine, for instance. Yeah.
Just like your friend Elon Musk put a satellite up to help the Ukrainian war effort. These are tools which can be used for good or ill. Yeah. How does he typify it?
what's happening now. I think, Joe, you're speaking of Joe. I would agree with you. The anti-woke thing is a big part of that. Also, the money to realize his ambitions. That's the thing that is so unnerving about a lot of our recent immigrants is that they come with a billion dollars and a lot of ideas. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. So I saved that for last, Elon Musk. Are you happy to have him as a neighbor?
Maybe he'll move out to the town he's starting. He's apparently starting his own. It's totally characteristic of him. I know that he would want his own town. Yeah, I call it Pottersville. But if you watch that movie. So would you move there?
I wouldn't want to leave my neighborhood. I'm very happy where I am. That's a different answer. But what do you think about him coming here? Because he's typifying this, you know. Of course, he just moved his engineering headquarters back to Palo Alto because he hates California. Yeah, right. You know, I...
we'd live in a country where the government doesn't invent anything anymore. And so it's all up to these, you know, princes of industry and love them or hate them. That's, you know, they're the people that have their hands on the controls. That's absolutely true. And, you know, I give him credit for making electric cars viable, sexy, you know, and
And I give him credit for that stuff in Ukraine. It was all of the liabilities that come with somebody like Elon Musk running our culture. There are some good things to it as well. But
You know, the main thing that I feel is you don't have any influence over how they affect their culture. No, they weren't elected. Yeah. They weren't elected. As much as we have problems with our elected officials, they weren't actually elected. So what is that going to do? You have someone, the most famous man in the world, one of them, who has a lot of opinions. I don't know if you've noticed.
a lot of them toxic, sort of is on display every day on Twitter, whether he's defending Scott Adams or making fun of women and things like that. What is that going to do to this city, this idea, from your perspective? Is that problematic, the divisiveness, bringing divisiveness without solutions, et cetera? I think we have already got plenty of divisiveness in Texas, and he adds to it.
You know, the way I end the article is a sense that, you know, I feel myself being increasingly more a resident than a citizen because of the absence of influence that ordinary people have. And I think...
Despite your affection for San Francisco, that was part of what happened in San Francisco. Yes, 100%. And, you know, this is the thing that if people lose a sense of investment in the place they live, then it becomes less like home than it had been. Which your piece is about. And I want to sort of end on that.
My producer, Naima, points out that Peace Street's a little curmudgeonly and boomery at times. Hello, boomer. Rents are high. Traffic is bad. To some extent, the city's doing what a city's supposed to do to become a hub to attract young talent. So I want to end on a positive note. How have these changes made Austin better?
How do you think it attracts? Young people are always an important part of a lifeblood of a city, although I would suggest many different kinds of people are the lifeblood of a city. Talk about what's the good part and what needs to be done here. I'd like you to end on that to make it not weird again, but civil and where people of differing opinions can live together. Well, I think about.
What is the purpose of a city? And I think, you know, the city has two real goals, which is, you know, to create...
and to create community. I mean, there are other things I'm sure, but those are the main things. And in terms of creating opportunity, we're doing a wonderful job. Right. And I applaud that because I think, you know, jobs are the most important thing. And so, and Texas, not just Austin, but the whole state, you know, just Job Creation Central is,
The community part, we're not doing a good job on. We're dividing our community. Texas is sort of, you know, the center of creating the divisive cultural project that has become, you know, the politics of our country. And, you know, if we could do a...
If we could do as good a job of taking care of our citizens as we do in terms of creating our economy, then we'd be the city on the hill. But we're a long way from that. And, you know, that's where I feel despair about the future of Texas because –
Texas is going to double by the year 2050, and it'll be the center of American politics in a way that I don't think people in America and certainly I don't think Texans have taken on how important that is.
Texas has always seen itself as being sort of on the margins, on the outside. And you have to change that and accept the responsibility of being the future of America. And that we haven't done. Yeah. One of the things that they have is don't California my Texas. What I say to them is good luck here. Because with great success comes great responsibility. Yes, indeed. Well, good luck with these guys. Thank you. Good luck. Thank you so much, Kara. You lead it.
I didn't know you fell in love with San Francisco at the Folsom Street Fair, Cara. Well, I liked it. I liked the whole thing. It was disgusting, but I liked it. It is a kink fest. I know, but it was just like, good for these people. They don't care. They obviously don't care.
So I like that. It's funny that that's your entry point because it's my exit point from San Francisco. My then boyfriend took me and two friends of mine who are visiting from Turkey. He's like, oh, we should check out the Folsom Street Fair. And I was horrified watching a man in a lawn chair doing things I cannot describe. I'll just say he was urinating while other people were pleasing themselves. You know what? Good for them. As long as it's not hurting other people, I'm good with it.
I hurt me. I will never unsee that image. I didn't like it much, but I also liked that people felt they had the freedom to do, to express themselves in various and sundry sexual ways. And I, you know, again, not my scene, but I'm good with it. That's why I like San Francisco. Did that feel rare to you in the 90s? They compared to say New York or something? No, I mean, I came from DC, which was as uptight as could be. The freak was on the inside in DC and they were hiding and it was making them terrible people. And in San Francisco, all the freaks on the outside and they're very normal on the inside.
That's fair. I liked his point about you can feel like a resident and not a citizen. Like that distinction was super interesting, right?
Yeah. I think one of the problems with the city is when you get there, you think it's yours. And then when new people get there, you're like, who are these interlopers? And I like interlopers. I like change. I like when things close. It makes me sad. There's a lot of closings of restaurants and stores I went to and brought the kids to, and it's sad. But then I see something new, and I'm like, oh, that's cool. Do you feel a citizen of San Francisco or of D.C.? I do. Not D.C. No. I feel a citizen of San Francisco. I feel like a citizen of New York. I feel like a citizen of the world. That's so...
dopey. All right. I do. Let's move on then. All right. Okay. You globally. No, just generally, I feel like we're all in it together. It's not that different. I mean, freak on the inside, freak on the outside. We're all freaks. That is not the vibe of our world right now. That is not the vibe. We're all one big happy family. I don't think that's what's happening in the world at this moment in time. I think the future of America is more like Texas or like California.
I'm hoping California. We've always, you know, we got you here, people. We got you here. So let's stick with the California dream. Who elected you governor of California, Kara? I'm just saying. Guess who all the great things have come from in our history, mostly on the whole California side. Don't California our podcast, Kara? Yeah. Oh,
All those amazing Texas things compared to California. Come on. Come on. In recent history, lots of California. Lots of good from Texas. Name one. Lots of good from Texas. I can name a hundred for California. I'm not going to fight with Texans, but good barbecue. You do not want to fight with Texans. I'm just saying for creation and invention, it's California. Hands down. Hands down. Used to happen around D.C. a little bit. It was not. It was not. It was not. The space program, sort of. Yeah, but. Houston. Space program. Lots of.
Okay. Space program. We can all share a little bear. Carol, be a little share bear. No. Share bear. I want the California dream to keep going on with adjustments. There's been problems here too, but I think the California dream is about openness and acceptance and tolerance and inclusivity. And that's what makes it such an innovative profit-making, invention-spewing industry.
machine that it's been. Well, I think a lot of those words could be true of many places in the world, including my experience of Austin, open. Yeah, in Austin, but Texas, pushing down on trans people and abortions. Certainly divisiveness in Texas. They're not getting anywhere with that kind of nonsense. Well, I hope you're right that the future of America is more like California than Texas. I do not know, and I do not want to fight a Texan. No, I love Austin though.
I love Austin. Want to read us out? Yes. Today's show was produced by Neha Miraza, Blake Nishik, Christian Castro-Rossell, and Rafaela Seward. Special thanks to the team at the Slack stage at South by Southwest. Aaliyah Jackson engineered this episode, and our theme music is by Trackademics, and it was a thrill to meet you in Austin.
If you're already following the show, you get a brand new pair of cowboy boots. If not, don't you want cowboy boots? I don't. In any case, go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.