Wanda Sykes on Why Trump Isn’t Funny Anymore
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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!

Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is Lizzo on the French Riviera, and I can definitely play the flute. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naima Raza. You are actually on the French Riviera right now. You are not Lizzo. No. Can you play the flute? She can. I saw her last night play it. She played beautifully. And the reason I'm referring to it is there's a big joke by Wanda Sykes about that.

Yes. She was amazing. She was astonishing. She played six or seven songs and just blew the top off the place. It was great. And I would say I'm here because they hire people like Lizzo and other stars to appear at this con Lions event. And so there's parties everywhere and they bring in the big names. You sound tired. I am. I'm exhausted. I've been talking to advertisers and

marketers and talking about all kinds of issues. And we taped a live pivot this afternoon. Oh, wow. After being on a boat for a while with Scott. So it was a lot. Hard life. It's exhausting. A lot of work, actually. It is a little bit. When you're working in somewhere beautiful, you're still working. I'm still at Martha Stewart's estate. No, you are. You're staying. Married a gardener. It's like gold digging, but it's green digging. Yeah.

you know? Yeah. Good idea. You are in the south of France for Cannes Lion. You know, it's where people get together and make deals. It's essentially marketers and people who are buying advertising meet people who are selling advertising. And all the big internet companies, which are now big players in digital media, buy out the beaches here and they throw parties and there's a lot of rosé. And it's just a networking event. And I do think a lot of deals get done while it's happening. But they also give out awards and it's an excuse to

to get together and drink together, I think, in an analog way, which is going to change dramatically, I think. I'm not sure things like this will survive the future. You're going to put on your Apple Vision Pro and just make advertising deals, maybe? I guess advertising's long been a relationship business. It's increasingly not. It's a data and analytics business. And so there's all these tech companies here. And an AI business soon. Now, they're all worried about that, for sure. That's been the big topic here is AI.

They've been giving out some big awards. I think Anheuser-Busch and Bev won one, which was ironic because of their month-long boycott of Bud Light we've seen in this country. First, they pissed off the right using a trans influencer. Then they pissed off the left. Yeah. Well, it's a bigger world, the United States of America. It's a bigger world. And that's what happens when you leave it. Yes, it is. And then they also awarded Kevin Hart as Entertainment Person of the Year. It's a party here on the French Riviera. He also flirted with cancellation for a minute in 2018. I had to step down from the Oscars.

because of homophobic tweets he'd had in 2009 to '11. And he refused to apologize and apologized repeatedly,

Which is interesting because our topic today is about comedy and really about this new line in comedy and how comedy has changed over time. And Wanda Sykes is our guest today. Yeah, I love Wanda Sykes. She's one of my favorites. She's not here. But I ran into a lot of the SNL cast last night, including Lorne Michaels, who created SNL. And, you know, she's one of my favorite comics of the many comics I like, and I spend a lot of time listening to comics.

But she is one of the people that really is a truth teller. She's very funny. She's more left, I guess, or more liberal than other comics. But she certainly is really funny. And so I think she takes it to people, the powers that be. I just really like her. And she has a new show called I'm an Entertainer, her new Netflix special that came out last month. And she also had the Netflix series, The Upshaws. But this is a guest you've been dying to have on. We moved the schedule. You did your own prep because we had four-hour

the episodes taping last week. Why do you love LaWanda so much? Because she's just been consistently a good comic. There's a lot of people that sort of pop up and get well-known. And I like most comics, I'll be honest. I really do. I like all kinds of different comics. And some of them would surprise you. I like even sort of politically incorrect comics. I like...

right wing comics. They're funny. I like humor. And I think this is an area that's really been trying to figure out how to speak to the audience. And she doesn't go into sort of meanness, which I really appreciate. She doesn't need to dunk constantly, you know, in the way a lot of male comics do, male white comics, especially. And she can dunk specific people.

Yes, exactly. She doesn't slap down. She slaps up, which I really appreciate. And again, she's a very powerful comic in the pantheon of comics. And there's not that many who's a woman, who's a person of color and a lesbian. I filmed her years ago at a People's State of the Union, and she was smacking up to Trump at the time. I think the idea was like kind of dump Trump was the whole event. And she has a sense of humor that's very...

dry, almost wry. And accessible. And she was exhausted by Trump already. That must have been 2018, 2019. So I was very keen to hear her and how exhausted she would be by now. Right. Well, she's a touring comedian. And so she's been on the road forever and it's part of her job and something she does. And it sort of changed a little bit during the pandemic.

And she was trying to find humor in that. And she has pandemic jokes. She's got political jokes. She calls out Dave Chappelle. Yeah, she gave Dave Chappelle a hard time, which he's much deserved. All right, well, let's get to the interview. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back with Wanda Sykes. ♪♪♪

Welcome, Wanda. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Let's start with a new show and how you made it. This is your first show since the pandemic, and you piled on some very serious topics. Talk a little bit about the conceptual idea behind the show. Yeah, I mean, you know, the pandemic was bizarre. I mean, you know, it was this time that we were going through and

being locked down with, you know, the closest people to you. You're locked down with them. And then all these things just were happening, you know, with Black Lives Matter and with Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, George Floyd. And I'm in the house with

White people who I love with all my with all my being married to and the other your children married and my children, I give my life, you know, for them. But I'm in the house stuck with them and I'm having all these feelings and this anger and and and just looking around like what what don't you get? And what?

What can you say to help fix this? And they're looking at me for answers, like want me to explain what was going on, where I'm like, it's, you know, this is like asking the victim, why did they get smacked, you know? Mm-hmm.

So I knew, you know, the stages where I go to work things out, not just for comedy, but also just for my peace of mind. Yeah, your mental. It's my therapy, yeah. But you weren't able to do that during COVID either. You weren't able to sort of save up. Exactly. How did you get it to funny? Well, getting it to funny, I guess it was...

stepping outside of it and looking at my situation that I was in. It was like, oh my God, all this is going on and I'm in the house with white people, you know, it's, and so it starts there. So one of the things you talked about trans issues was a big focus, which I appreciated. You called out Dave Chappelle as I did and many did, but it seems to have just gotten worse. Um,

Talk a little bit about why you wanted to put this in the show. And actually, it's even more pertinent now. I know, I'm not sure when you taped this, but it's gotten worse and worse. Right, right. I mean, it's such a community that I don't understand why even attack, why attack them. These are people who just want to live their lives in the body that they feel that they should be in. Or, I mean, it's just bizarre to me

Why why that bothers you? I don't understand how that affects your life, you know. And, you know, thank God we have trans people who are out in the public and, you know, lending their voices and being a voice for for their community, you

But you have people who, you know, trans people who are just in, you know, Milwaukee somewhere and they don't want all the attention and everything. They just want to live their lives. Right. Right. So they don't understand that when they make these jokes, they think they're going after like. Why do you think they do? It's not just Dave Chappelle. It's Ricky Gervais. There's a lot of people that do. And Elon Musk does it, does all kinds of anti-trans stuff despite having a trans child.

I don't know. I'm saying I really don't know. I mean, it's hateful. It's just hate. I mean, I don't understand why. Why do you want to make someone else's life harder than it is? I mean, this is already rough. Right. But why put that on someone else and put them in danger? And I know they say it's words, but words matter and matter.

People are dying from this, especially black trans women. Huge targets. I mean, and honestly, I don't get it. I really don't. One of the things I wrote about was I, you know, you can talk about anything you want as a comic, obviously, and I think you probably back that. But I was I was kept going, why an hour on it?

Why an hour on it versus like a minute, right? Like he had one kind of okay lesbian joke and a couple of others, but an hour. And I was like, gosh, that's a lot. That's to attack someone. And you know what's so sad is it's... Brilliant guy. Exactly. Right. He's brilliant. He's so funny. I still go back and watch the Killing Them Softly. I mean, he's a really funny storyteller. Just...

I just don't understand, like you said, why a whole hour. So let's play one that you have, which I thought was a perfect joke about the laws around kids at drag shows in places like Arkansas. Let's play that clip.

These kids, no, man. And now they're trying to go backwards, right? Florida, don't say gay ban. What the hell, right? Tennessee, no kids can go to the drag shows. 'Cause like that was a problem in the first place. Oh, I can't tell you how many drag shows I've been to and everybody's up in arms because they ran out of high chairs and booster seats. What the fuck is wrong with them?

And then I'm going to play a second clip. This is about book banning versus assault weapons. Let's play that clip too. They're banning books in Texas, banning books. But we're protecting the kids. Well, if you really want to protect the kids, ban assault weapons. That's what's killing the kids, not the books. I mean, until a drag queen walks into a school and beats eight kids to death with a copy of To Kill a Mockingbird, I think you're focusing on the wrong shit.

Can you talk about how you crafted this joke? Because you brought a lot of things in. You have book bans, assault weapons, drag queens, and to kill a mockingbird, which is always a good thing. Talk about why you did it this way. I thought it worked perfectly. It's common sense. I mean, I think that's the nut of my comedy is just cut through everything and like, it's just common sense, y'all. This is what it is. And also to point out the hypocrisy in

You know, and just what we do and what people how they're thinking is like back to the drag shows or the story hour, you know, drag queens can't read to children. I'm like, what? What? First of all, they're in a library, a public library reading children.

And, you know, it's like if it's going to confuse the kids. And like I said before, like if the kids can get, you know, snuffle up with kids, you know, I think they'll understand what a drag queen is. Right. Right. It's just common sense to me. And it seems like people just go out of their way.

to make life harder for people who aren't even in their world. You know, like drag queens aren't like just out in Target, you know, shopping and you're going to run and encounter one. Well, if you're in the Castro where my kids grew up. Okay, maybe in the Castro. Yes, you do. Yes, in the Castro. Yes, yes. And in the village, maybe. But, you know.

Yes. I just don't understand how people go outside of their world to mess with people who, like I said, they would have nothing to do with. Never even encounter. So,

Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think it's gained ground? Because a lot of this stuff is gained ground, whether it's racism, homophobia, anti-trans. Because that's all the right has to offer. They're not offering any policies, you know, except to try to take right. Well, ban drag queen shows. Yeah, except that's their policies. Really, how is that putting food on your table? Right.

How is that, you know, making housing more available and affordable? How is that helping the environment? OK, maybe less hairspray with the drag queens. I don't know. But I mean, you know, how is that helping? That's the only thing that they have. That's the only flag that they can raise is to and to rattle up their fan base more.

you know, their voters is to just go after just on the attack and make up shit like this is what's hurting us. I mean, it's yeah. And one of the things they've tended to focus on is racial issues now. Oh, yes. There was just a Washington Post survey of black Americans saying they felt they were better off voting.

but were more scared than ever, which I thought was an interesting juxtaposition that financially they feel better, but they feel much more in danger and exposed to white supremacy and everything else right now. Can you talk about how you think about talking about racism in America?

your show and you cover racial issues from George Floyd to Ahmaud Arbery. When you are touching on these hot button issues, do you worry at all from a comic point of view? Or do you think this is what people expect you to do to sort of hit all these very thorny issues for people? Be honest with you. I get a little tingly up there when I'm, you know, speaking on these issues. Meaning tingly how? Like,

Yeah, like your little spidey senses going on. What are you worried about? Hecklers, not so much. I can take care of heckler. But it's like, what if somebody decides to take it to that next level? You know, but, you know, I have great security. I have amazing security.

Like my audience that show up, they're just I mean, they really are. They're the best. And and as far as hecklers, they've taken care of hecklers. You know, it's like if someone shouts something, you should I mean, you should hear how the I mean, they just jump on them before I can even get to them. I assume you have a great number of lesbians in the audience that would handle that. Exactly. Yeah. Let's be safe. We're not playing around. So I'm not as concerned about.

Do you cut back at all on things, especially around racialism, especially with white supremacy gaining, like it's out in the open right now in a way that it never has been. And all these polls are showing people are very nervous about their own lives. I know as a gay person, I'm much more nervous than I was since the 80s. Like, honestly. Isn't that crazy? It's nuts. It's absolutely nuts. And so when you think about that, does that make you pull back?

I don't pull back, but let's just say I because I want to say what, you know, what I what I need to say and what I want to say. But maybe the way I phrase it, you know, like the joke I did about I have a friend who won't get vaccinated, which is true.

No, I got a friend who still hasn't been vaccinated. Nah, she won't get vaccinated. And she's laughing at me. She's like, "Uh, look at you. You don't know what's in that mess. You just put that mess in your arm. You don't know what's in it." I was like, "Yeah, I don't know what's in it. And if they told me what was in it, I still wouldn't know what was in it. I'm not a scientist, jackass."

They laugh at me. They laugh at me. They're supposed to be like, well, I just don't put anything in my body. I'm like, you use Splenda. Shut the fuck up. I used to tell that joke where it was more of a tack of like, I can't believe I have a friend who won't get vaccinated.

And she she's like, well, I don't know what's in it. And I was like, well, if they told you what was there, you still wouldn't know your jackass, you know. But I said, you know what? I understand there's people out there who because I want them to get the joke. So I was like, maybe it'll go over better.

Mm-hmm. If I put it on me where I'm the one who says, yeah, I don't know what, you know. So it's that type of thing. You know, it's more of the massaging jokes where I still get my point across. But you don't have to be in their face. So, yeah, I don't have to punch them first. Do you ever feel like you should push harder even? Because things have gotten worse, like a lot worse. And I can't imagine being a comic saying,

and not being angry on stage. But that's a mistake, presumably. And I've had shows like that. I've had shows where I was just angry and I had to take a step, like really take a step back and breathe. And like I said, that's why I love my audience. And they'll just applaud, like, come on. And then I talk about something silly and I'm good. But that's when I know

okay, that joke's not ready because it's making me too angry. You know, I'm really worried about this whole Trump thing. I'm worried. I mean, good Lord. Yep. He keeps rising to the top like styrofoam, orange styrofoam. Talk about Trump, how you feel about you. You didn't have a lot of Trump in here. No, not normal. I did a lot of Trump. That was a special before this one. And yeah, this special, I, I,

One, I couldn't find what was so funny. And two, I want to stop talking about him. I want him to go away. I wanted to hit on subjects that

With him removed. And so like, guys, let's just get back to these issues and not not even talk about him. Let's not connect him. Let's not blame him that, you know, this is why we're here. Let's just say this is where we're at and let's talk about it. You know, do you feel like you should be talking about Trump now when you're thinking about about what you're doing?

He's hard to leave out. And at the same time, you don't want to talk about him. So what do you do as a comic? Well, now, I mean, now he's back. We have to talk about him now. I mean, he's, you know, he's been indicted again. I mean, we have to talk about him. Is he a good attack venue for your comedy? Or is it just you don't find it funny anymore? It's not funny. Yeah. It's just not. And there's nothing that you can say that he won't outdo you. Mm-hmm.

You know, it's like a parody of a parody. So to me, it's more about the voters and the people following him than him, because there's nothing you're going to say about him that's going to sway them. You know, I used to work at NSA before I started doing stand up. Yes, I'm going to get into that in a minute. Yeah. But no, when he was first running, I said, how can he even run? I mean, yeah.

I know the Constitution allows it, but I was like, this dude will never get a security clearance. You can't trust him with secrets. He's already compromised. He owes a shitload of money to China and then he's in bed with the Saudis. I mean, come on. There's no way this guy can become president. And it happened. And it happened. And here we are. And he walked off with a bunch of...

Top secret documents. You were a national security staffer at the NSA. I worked at the NSA, yeah. What did you do there?

Basically, I bought stuff. I was a contracting specialist. But I would buy a range of things. Like what? Like spy gear? Anywhere from furniture to spy gear. Spy gear. But you weren't a spy, right? No, I wasn't a cryptologist or anything or a spy. Why did you go there?

Because I lived in the area, basically. Really? When you grow up in the Maryland, D.C. area, you end up working for the government or government contractor. But also...

It was the way for me to serve my country. My father was a retired colonel. My brother, he also served. You know, my mom, she worked at the credit union there at NSA. So it was like, you know, a family thing. You have top security clearance, though, correct? Yeah. I had one of both top secret. Wow. Okay. You could be Trump's lawyer now, by the way, just so you know.

Oh, yeah. Do you have any thoughts on the indictment right now?

I'm nervous that it's in Florida and I'm nervous about this, the judge. One of the things that I get nervous about, as I said, is being gay right now and having children and things like that. I'm just curious. Let's talk a little bit about that in your family. Why did you wait until 44 in 2008 to come out? I know it was hard with your parents, I assume due to religion. Right. Was that the issue? Yes. They are what? What is their...

We're Baptist. Baptist. Oh, are they Southern Baptist? No, no, just regular old Baptist. Regular old black Baptist. Yeah. So why did you wait so long? Was it working at the NSA? Was it? I didn't go into the military or the CIA because I was gay because I didn't want to not be out. Okay. And that was an issue at the time. Was there any reason why? Why? I'm sorry. Why you waited till 44? To come out? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it wasn't NSA because I left NSA back in, I want to say, 93, 94, something like that. Mm-hmm.

I just, one, I didn't know, you know, I mean, I knew when I was young and then kind of like put that away and say, okay, this I'm living my life as a straight woman. You had that friend. You talked about a friend. Yeah. We all have that friend. Yeah. Yeah. So I just lived my life as a straight woman, you know, tried marriage and to a man that didn't work. And, uh,

And, yeah, it just – after the marriage, it just hit me, like, what is happening? How come all my relationships only go to a certain point and I can't, you know, really –

get any deeper. Like I've had so many people say, it feels like if I just walked out, you wouldn't give a damn. And I was like, that's probably, yeah, that's bingo. That's it. You know, I've had people say that to me before. Yeah. Yeah. So, and then it hit me that, oh, okay. I forgot about all these other feelings and, and, you know, this is,

what I'm doing right now, I'm just playing a role. I'm, you know, Wanda Sykes in the role of a straight woman, right? So it was easy when it was over, just cut, move on to the next thing. But who I really am, I figured it out, like, oh, through therapy and all and talking it out, I said, I'm a gay woman. I'm a lesbian. And then, you know, a couple of relationships, but

When I met Alex, it was just like just deeper. I've never, you know, had feelings that like that. I've never like just understood someone and just felt seen and understood. And and of course, that's that's when I because at first I said, no, I never want to have kids. But that's when being with her made me go up. She she definitely wanted kids. Yeah.

And it just made sense to me. Like, of course I want to raise a family with you. Of course. And you have two kids, twins, who are 14. Personally, I think lesbians make ideal parents, especially for boys. I think they should raise all the boys. I have three and just one daughter. But when you...

met her, she's French, as you say, she's such a part of your act. Talk about the dynamic of bringing your personal life, including being gay into your act. How difficult was that? And I suppose the answer is I'm an entertainer. So anything is fair game. The gay part, that was, you know, that was easy to bring into the act because by then, you

You know, we were married and Prop 8 passed in California. You know, so that made it pretty easy to come out because I had to speak up. You know, something that I had was trying to be, was about to be taken away from me. Did you have your kids then? I suppose you did. No, but Alex was pregnant when we got married. Just like maybe two months. Okay.

I know about the anger. My kid looked at me and said, are we not a family anymore after the campaign? And Obama had just won. So there was a lot of happiness about that. And then that, right. And we lived in California. So it was easy to do it on stage, to talk about it. Yeah. Out of anger. Yes. What was the reaction to people from your perspective? Was there any difficulty or not at all? It seems like you did it flawlessly and seamlessly. Yeah.

Exactly. You know, and I get asked when you came out, did you lose fans? Did you lose this? I don't know. I probably did, but I gained so many, so many more, you know, and work wise, yeah.

I don't know. I mean, it's whatever roles I didn't get or people, you know, don't want to work with me or whatever because of the gay. I've had so many more, you know, offers. So it's like, I don't know. I can't even answer that. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think so. People like lesbians more, I think. They do. I think they like you better. It's true. Yeah.

One of the things you do talk about is this issue of woke, which never goes away. It's the new version of politically incorrect or politically correct, really. And you said the whole complaint about cancel culture is a lot of men, especially straight men, and I would say straight white men, I would add that to it, are just pissed off. They can't say anything anymore.

And you also notice, not like you can't say these things, you can say them, now there's consequence. So that's why I say I can't get canceled, only God can say, all right, Wanda, that's enough. But you've taken a stance here in a very strong way. You left the Roseanne reboot.

after her incredibly horrific statements about Valerie Jarrett. Talk about that idea of sort of defending woke. I hate that there's even, you know, a title that we're calling it something.

It should just be, you know, just trying to be better, you know, just being more inclusive and just seeing that, hey, you know, we all should be represented and we all deserve the same things. I mean, I don't it's crazy that.

like I say, evolving is now a bad thing. A lot of comedy rests on that, though, on people being angry about cancel culture, being canceled. In comedy, especially, they're mad if they get shoved out of something or not able to say what they want to say. But like I said, you can say what you want to say, but maybe, you know, you might lose some audience. Maybe you might gain some audience. I don't, you know, to me, it's, you're canceled when,

You say, hey, I'm going to be here at, you know, on June 3rd or whatever, and nobody shows up. Okay, now you know. But, you know, you go perform someplace else and maybe people will show up. If they don't show up, then you know you're canceled. Who do you think your audience is? I mean, who do you, who's your platonic person who you want to appeal to? Is there anybody or not?

When I think about it, it's not like a demographic that I'm going after. I just like people who, you know, are just open-minded and...

Just loving people. Yeah. So you don't, would you mind performing in front of conservative audiences? Do you think you have a conservative face? I said loving people. Loving people. Okay. Yes. So, okay. All right. I see your point. One of the things you didn't cover also, by the way, was Roe v. Wade. Did you come up with a good joke yet? You said you couldn't come up with one. Is there one? I don't.

Not, no. I mentioned it at the top of the show, like, you know, how things are awful and, you know, Roe v. Wade was overturned. But I, no, I can't. You still can't. Can't find it funny. Can't find it funny. Another thing that's not funny is the writer's strike. Talk a little bit about that and the issues for you. I know you can't appear in certain things. You certainly have some series going.

Where are you in that? Because comedy is a little different, but still an issue as you move forward. Yeah, like we were, we had two more episodes to shoot of the Upshaws, you know, for Netflix. We, you know, we shut down. This is the most important, you know, moment, I think, for our careers and just for the craft of writing and how we create content.

Not just TV and, you know, film, but this is the line in the sand with AI and all. And even for actors, you know, how AIs just, you know, can create and use, you know, images. And it's taking the ownership and...

power away from writers and performers. You wouldn't want a Wanda AI? They could input all your stuff and you could... No? No? No. No. Where do you think the strike is going to come out? Because I think they'll say AI is not quite there yet, so we're not going to negotiate on it. Well, they...

That's the same crap they told us when we were going after, you know, DVD and on demand, you know, the last strike. And, oh, no, that's not, we don't know where that's going. You absolutely know where it's going. People are using it to, you know,

Write their papers, their speeches. I mean, it'll be where the, you know, the producers, they'll just say, give me a script about this. And then they'll just hire writers to do, you know, punch up or whatever to make it sound, you know, like an actual human wrote it. Mm-hmm.

now we don't, you know, there's no ownership to it. So, so where do you think it's going to resolve? Cause this, the actors may go on and strike. You're both. I'm, I'm both of both unions. Yeah. And I voted yes for both. So what is the thing you want most from this? Is it the writer's rooms? Is it AI? Is it all of it? Cause if, cause this doesn't seem like the studios are budging at this point. Yeah. We have to have the, have the, the, the rooms maintain the size of the room. Stop, stop it with these little small rooms. Um,

actors you know and all residuals back we need for the streamers to be accountable and transparent i mean because you know they can just tell you anything and that's pretty much what happens with netflix i'll say oh x amount of people watch this and but there's there's no data to back it up we have nothing um and and also what i what i hope is for the network's

to break off from the streamers because I believe we can get a deal with the networks. I believe we can do a deal with them, a deal that, you know, that we'll be happy with and let the streamers do their own thing. And hey, we'll go back. Although sometimes the networks are the streamers, right? But that's their deal. But I think

If, yeah, NBC will have a deal with NBC and Peacock, that's a streamer. That's separate. You've been operating. You're on Netflix. You're on lots of things. How do you look at the changing entertainment environment? Aside from the strike, which these are major issues, the rooms, the AI, residuals, etc. Everything's changed in terms of economics. How do you look at it? How have you seen it? Well, I see it where...

You know, it's like you like the freedom. You like the creative freedom at like a Netflix. You know, they don't they don't bother as much. You like that. You know, it's Netflix. It's it's it's sexy, you know. But financially, it's better with the networks as far as with residuals and especially for people.

Like, I'm at a level where, hey, I'm, you know, I'm not complaining. But...

I look at the younger writers and actors who are just starting. There's a lot of issues that, you know, we can't back down. We have to get these things because that's how they're going to survive. When you think about that, you know, it's changed so drastically in general. But one of the things that sort of hangs over all your heads or you go over to TikTok and there's a million creators, 1% of whom are excellent creators.

Like, not just good. You're like high level. Does that worry you where you see all that? Where comics, like, just talk about comedy. I mean, you can see it in lots of different ways, dancing and singing and things like that. But is that a worry to comics like that, where you see a lot of people breaking on these social networks? Especially TikTok, I would say, or Instagram, maybe. No, I think it's great. You know, it's just a matter of how you...

You're training. Because at the end of the day, we're doing the same thing, right? We're saying something and it's getting to a viewer. We're providing content. I just happened to grow up in a system where you went to the comedy clubs and people liked the live performance and

And that's how I built my, you know, built my career. But I don't I don't diss anyone who's taking their approach where they're instead of going through the comedy clubs, they're doing it, you know, through social media and they're getting the audience.

you know good for them is that system of yours where you went to the comedy clubs and you got a special and then you you know you might have gotten a show etc is that over from your perspective or does it still work no there's still comics doing the same you know going through that and there's an audience is still there the audience still there's people who just want to go see a live show a live show yeah so is that your favorite part of it right now or absolutely

being on the road or going to do live shows? Doing live shows. It's the most challenging part. Is it raining there? Yeah, I'm sorry. That's okay. I love it. I didn't make the rain. I'm not apologizing for the rain. It's the woman in me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I made it rain. I'm sorry. Oh, my God. Is that thunder? Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make it thunder. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

It's your fault. All of it. It's always my fault. I'm so sorry. That's the thing I'm trying to break my daughter from. Yeah. She keeps apologizing for everything. Oh, wow. Mine does not at all. Oh,

I bumped into her. Oh, I'm sorry. I said, I bumped into you. Stop. Stop it. Stop. Stop. Stop saying you're sorry for stuff. Yep. My daughter doesn't apologize. Yeah. We're good. We're good with her. So let me ask you two more questions. Are you on the new season of Curb, your enthusiasm? I hope so. I am not. I am not.

Oh, why not? Your relationship with Larry is near perfect. I miss it. It's almost like I want to go, hey, can you call over the curb and tell Larry, come on, what are you doing? Yeah, that must have been an amazing experience. You guys were perfect. I loved it. But you did a great job on The Daily Show, too. I was just watching all the clips from your week there. Do you want that job? No.

Is that something you're interested in? I asked this of Roy Wood, who was on earlier. Oh, I love Roy. Roy is great. I love Roy. Do I want the job? I'm not going to say I... No, I'm...

I hate to say no, I don't want the job because maybe I'm supposed to have that job. I don't know. It would be nice if a woman and a woman of color had it. That would be great. Maybe that's where I'm supposed to be. I have no idea. But I am not, you know, lobbying or, you know, I'm not going after that job. I don't know if that job works for my family right now or for me. I don't know.

I don't know. Can I ask you who you think is funny right now? Is there one thing you just saw recently and you're like, oh, that's really fucking funny? Oh, jeez. Hmm. What makes me laugh? You know what? Abbott Elementary makes my day. Ah. Abbott Elementary. Why? It's just a nice, pleasant, funny half hour of good TV. Mm-hmm. I love the characters. Yeah.

And they're able to do it, you know, where it's sweet, but not, you know, like saccharine. It's not just, you know, you enjoy it. Right. It's not cynical either. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I love that. All right. Wanda, thank you so much. You're a wonderful comic. I'm an enormous fan for decades, for absolute decades. And I really appreciate it. Thank you.

That rain that came in, she's apologizing for the rain. I know. She's funny. It was a lot of rain. She's trying to share with you that her child is apologizing too much, and you're like, my child is perfect. No apologies for my child. Well, I'm trying to get her to. She does wine for ice cream here in France. Suddenly, she's become an addict for French ice cream, which is on every corner. So,

Well, that's nothing to apologize for. She's like made for their French Riviera, your daughter, by the way. She is. She's looking good. She's wearing the dresses. She's posing all over the place. She's making friends. I left her right now dancing in the middle of the square, eating ice cream and dancing with the band, which was... Excellent. By herself or chaperoned, I hope? By herself. She was dancing. But she's not by herself. Amanda is by herself. Yes, we leave her there. It's France. I gave her a cigarette, a bottle of wine, and she's on her own. She'll get herself home.

Get yourself home, sweetie. Three years old. Yeah, that's the plan. That's the plan. I liked Wanda. She seemed a little reserved in that interview. She is. She was very...

I think she must be exhausted. You know what I mean? In some way. But I think one of the things about comics is when they're on, they're on. When they're not, they're often quite quiet as they're thinking about their act and how they want to present it. Just even being here for a short time because we have a lot of fans, both pivot and on fans. And getting like constant attention and I like your show and this and that is exhausting. And I'm not famous. I'm famous at Con Lions, but nowhere else.

maybe South by Southwest. You're conference famous. I'm conference. Well, no, it's full of these people here, but it's really, I think it must be the incoming for someone like her must be quite substantive. And so I think probably they shut down a little bit.

Yeah. Just as we as media kind of think about the Trump return and what that means for coverage, she seemed to be thinking about that for comedy and thinking, well, it's not even funny anymore. And I appreciated her point, which is that everything you do, he will outdo you. Yes. You can't make a joke anymore. It's moved beyond joke. It's surreal. Like you can't, it's not even, it's not funny anymore, but...

what are you going to do? There he is like oxygen. And so I think it's going to be very hard for comics coming forward, though he provides enormous ample material like that recent interview with Brett Baer. Oh, yes. Where he just is so crazy. And then you're like, what? Huh? And after a while, one, you get tired of talking about him. And two, it's not funny. And three,

making fun of it seems to diminish the importance of not making fun of it. So I think it's hard. Comics are going to have a hard time going forward. And also, he likes to be in on the joke or use the joke to his advantage, and he's a kind of mastermind at that. And we saw that when Caitlin Collins asked him, you know, his flip-flop on the debt ceiling and says, why were you, you know, for raising the debt ceiling when you're president? And

not now. And his response is, well, I was president then and I'm not now. And that's the difference. Ha ha. And, you know, that's the power he has. Well, that's the thing. He's not, you can't make fun of him because he makes fun of himself in a weird way. I think it's going to be really interesting. I mean, if you remember the first term, it's all the, you know, Alec Baldwin dressing as Trump and it's all fun and games. But since the insurrection, I think that really knocked the stuffing out of a lot of people. And I think it's, if you were a comic to try and make

Trump jokes is going to be hard. A lot of political jokes. So much of it is so ugly. I'll be interested to see how they do it. Right. And there's not so many great jokes about fascism. Oh, that Mussolini would have cut up.

Too soon. Too soon. It's still too soon. It's still too soon. You know, I really appreciated her point on race. The genesis of her whole project came from having to explain this almost, right? Yeah, right. To her family, to her white family. To her white family, exactly. And the analogy she uses, it's like asking the victim, why did you get smacked?

Which I thought was spot on. Was spot on. You don't want to compare it to being gay, but I remember having to explain things to my family. And I was like, why do I have to explain it to these idiots? You know what I mean? Like, it was interesting. And in her case, obviously, it was at the same time that the pandemic was happening. You had George Floyd. You had Ahmaud Arbery. You had so many different incidents. And you had no one to talk to. And you couldn't express yourself. You couldn't be on the road where she may have worked this stuff out. Right. Was hard for her.

And I thought that was a really prescient thing to think about when she was working on it.

I thought so too. And I appreciated that she was honest about getting, I can't remember if she used the word tingled or something that she started, you know, she felt a certain way. I felt that at parts in the interview. It's like having to explain it and then having to explain how you treat her. It's a really hard thing to work around. And I think she did a beautiful job of it. She did. She did. But anyway, she wasn't giving an inch to conservatives. No. She's like, what did she say when you asked her, does she imagine that she is conservative? No.

And she's like, I said open-minded or like kind-minded or generous people. She's not interested. I like a gal like that. I like a gal who punches them right in the nose. By the way, you pressed her a lot on kind of why she came out later in age. I was curious. Why were you so curious about that?

I just am always interested when people come out at a later age. I'm sort of, especially after AIDS, right? That was the 80s. That's, you know, I felt like, wow, it's how do you not come out in this day and age, including back then because of all the different political issues. I just was like, why wouldn't you do it? And obviously there's your parents, there's religion, there's all kinds of things pressing on anybody, any one person. And her answer was that she didn't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Which I think is fair. Maybe I'm going to one day find out. No. No, Naeem. No. I'm going to give you that complete answer. No. You once called me the straightest person you've ever met. Well, yeah. Except this one gay couple who live in Los Angeles. They're the straightest people I know. All right. You want to read us out? Sure.

From the French Riviera, today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Blakeney Schick, Christian Castor-Rossell, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Fernando Arruda engineered this episode, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get a flute lesson from Lizzo, and boy, are you lucky. If not, Wanda Sykes' fan base is coming after you, and it's a lot of armed lesbians. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow.

Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.