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The first half of 2024 was defined by a slew of A-list album releases. But the second half, that belongs to the newcomers. I'm Rihanna Cruz, senior producer of Switched on Pop. And over the course of our brand new series, The Newcomers, we'll be talking to some artists, popular in their own right, that are popping off right now and who we think you should be listening to.
There's our pop darlings, Latin superstars, and those in between. Tune into Switched on Pop wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Amazon Prime. Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Chicago is swarming with Democrats this week, as well as hordes of journalists and even a couple hundred social media influencers for the cicada-like cacophony that is the Democratic National Convention. I
I'm going to be there. Scott Galloway and I are doing a live taping of our Pivot podcast on Tuesday at the CNN Grill, which should be fun. We have a lot of people we've asked to interview. We're trying to drive Jake Tapper crazy. That's our great hope. What we're hoping to get out of it is for me to wander around Chicago with Scott and embarrass him in front of everyone. I think that should be a really good week for us.
But we're very excited to go and participate. I think it'll be fun, and it actually should be a party finally. Back in June, we thought this dancey would be a nail-biter and possibly a funeral for the election. But then, of course, President Biden resolved the will-he-won't-he in the Dems just to be sure there wasn't a last-minute upset on the roll call. Officially nominated Vice President Kamala Harris and Minnesota Governor Tim Walz earlier this month in an online vote. So it's a sealed deal.
What's the point in following along? Well, there's a lot of points because it's a critical moment for the Democratic Party to come together and excite their base for the election ahead in November. There are a lot of big-name speakers, including the Clinton-Obama-Biden trifecta, as well as room for surprises.
I'm hoping it will be Taylor Swift, but we'll see. Or Simone Biles will work for me. Beyonce is great. Something like that. And since Vice President Harris hasn't been speaking to much of the press, and by the way, we've asked her to speak to us, there are still open questions about the Harris-Walls agenda. So Insiders will be listening not just for politics, but also for policy. You remember that, policy.
We've got four guests today, Wall Street Journal White House reporter Sabrina Siddiqui, New York Times national politics reporter and host of the podcast The Run-Up, Astead Herndon, Casey Newton, founder of the newsletter Platformer and co-host of the Hard Fork podcast, and Reid Galen, co-founder of the Lincoln Project, president of Join the Union, a pro-democracy coalition, and author of the sub-stack The Homefront. This is a team of heavy hitters, so buckle up.
It is on.
Sabrina, Astead, Reid, and Casey, welcome. Thanks for being on On. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for having us. So we have a lot to talk about. This episode airs Monday, August 19th, just as the Democratic National Convention is getting underway in Chicago. We're taping a few days earlier. Scott and I are going, which should be a disaster, and we'll be taping from there. But first of all, from each of you, give us your five to ten word story of the DNC, or just even one word that sums up
the vibe because it is a vibe. Sabrina, you go first and instead Casey and then Reed.
Well, I think that it's a renewed level of enthusiasm from Democrats. Until just weeks ago, President Biden was poised to arrive in Chicago and accept his party's renomination for president. And now you have a huge momentum shift with Vice President Kamala Harris taking his place at the top of the ticket. And I think for an election where you saw a lot of voters who were very disillusioned with their choices,
This is the first time, I think, since really the start of this election season where you've seen Democrats much more energized. Energized. Energized. So I think that's the word that I would use going into this convention. All right. Asad? Yeah, I would say like whiplashy. Like, you know, a month ago, to Sabrina's point, not only was the DNC going to be
Joe Biden's, it was going to be sleepy, if not contentious, you know, like they the Democrats were like intentionally minimizing in-person events out of the prospect of both protests and, you know, backlash to their nominee. Right now, we're going to get a like celebratory star studded affair. Yes, yes. It was going to be funereal. And now it's fun. They put the fun in funeral. Casey?
What I'm looking for is how online is the DNC going to be, right? We're still in brat summer. I think the Democrats are still coconut pilled, and I'm sure they're going to be looking to make a lot of memes out of whatever happens. But I'm also very curious how much of online Kamala mania are they going to reference? Will there be a Kamala nominon sign anywhere in the arena? This is what I'm looking for. All right, Reid?
Look, I think happy Democrats vote and unhappy Democrats don't. And I think you're going to see a lot of happy Democrats in Chicago this week.
And so I think that it's a hell of a lot better place than they were a month ago. Absolutely. It's really kind of shocking, the shift. I think a lot of people are still whiplashed. I think that's an excellent word. Vice President Kamala Harris is obviously a historic candidate, the first woman of color to be nominated by the party. Of course, Shirley Chisholm got about 10 percent of the delegate votes more than 50 years ago in 1972. But there won't be a roll call this year.
Harris and Walz have already been officially nominated by online vote. Do you think that's a missed opportunity for a historic moment? It's kind of a wonderful thing when they do that and each state says something goofy. Thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, I totally think it is. But to the earlier point, it's reflective of when they were planning for President Biden. The reason the virtual vote was happening, they've used this explanation of the Ohio law. That's been pretty much
cleaned up and solved by now. They were doing it because they didn't want to have an in-person backlash to their nominee. They had all these uncommitted delegates who were planning things. And so they frankly wanted to, you know, they made this virtual for the means of insulating and protecting him. And now that they actually responded to voter concerns, it robs them of, I think, the most iconic kind of celebratory thing that we associate with conventions.
I imagine they're going to try to recreate some of those vibes, though. And so although this moment is not going to be the same as I think the typical roll call we see, I think they're going to try to re-inject some of that energy into the room. So, Reid, do you think it's the right move? How can they do that? Or does it give the GOP an in for an attack, you know, the illegitimate nominee thing? Look, this isn't 1996 or 2000, even when you had four straight days of wall-to-wall coverage. I mean, I did my first conversation
convention when I was 16, right? And I remember how exciting that was. And people were going crazy all day, every day for four days. It's just not the same. I mean, I think that there are people who will tune in because they're junkies. And I think there's going to be a lot more people who will tune in for the 45 minutes of the vice president's speech and the 40 minutes of Tim Walz's speech. And that's probably all they'll watch.
There's some speeches I think a lot of people will listen to. All the former Democratic presidents will be represented. President Biden and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton both scheduled to speak on Monday. Tuesday, we'll have President Obama. Wednesday, President Bill Clinton. Jimmy Carter is 99. He's sending his grandson, who does great speeches, actually, which is fair. Sabrina, you've
been to many of these events. Put into perspective, is this just par for the course, Dems rallying around the candidate? There were no Republican candidates, former presidents at the GOP event. What do you think about this idea of all these presidents being there?
Well, I think it tracks with what we've seen at prior Democratic conventions, because there has been more of a sense of party unity. You know, when you look at that split screen you mentioned with former President Trump, from the beginning, he hasn't always had the support of his Republican predecessors. He's openly feuded with them. And there's been a lot of opposition to Trump even still coming from within his own party, whereas you haven't
seen that same level of discord among Democrats. You maybe were going to see it a bit if President Biden were still on the ticket. Biden was there. Yeah, Nancy Pelosi was going to do the Tom Cruise thing. She was going to come in from the top and knock him off. Although even then, if it was President Biden...
President Obama, President Clinton, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, they all would have spoken. And I think this actually gets to Reid's point that this is not really a moment where I think a lot of undecided voters are going to tune in and have some dramatic shift in thinking about who they're going to vote for in November. This is really a moment where each party tries to use the opportunity to rally their base and shore up
that turnout that is going to be so critical in November when, you know, even if you see this momentum for Harris and her effectively erasing Trump's lead in a lot of these polls, this election is still going to ultimately come down to tens of thousands of votes across a handful of battleground states. So the importance of having those elections
presidents on stage, past and present, is to really reinforce, you know, what the Biden-Harris record has been, what the vision looks like for the future and why Democrats need to turn up, not just why they should, but why they have to turn up in order to make sure that Trump does not return to the White House. As a stead, you were saying that, but is it important to have celebrities on stage?
A lot of people think it should be simple people, like not celebrities, but they have better celebrities like a Simone Biles or Taylor Swift or Beyonce, anything like that. Do you should be looking out for that?
Yeah, I think that's going to happen. I think that they're going to try to, you know, Republicans did their everyday Americans thing, but they also had their version of celebrities, you know, Kid Rock, Lee Greenwood, whatever they want to call it. Their version is doing all the work there. Don't forget Hulk Hogan. Hulk Hogan ripping his shirt open. I guess Hulk Hogan's a real celebrity. Like, you know, like they had him. Kevin Sorbo should have been on there. But Democrats are going to do his thing.
is try to do both of those fronts. I imagine we will get a lot of everyday Americans, but they're going to blow the celebrity... Who? Who would you be? ...light there and blow that out of the water. We already know Julia Louis-Dreyfus is doing a panel with the eight women governors. I wouldn't be surprised if we get...
a Swift or Beyonce sighting, you know, like, they're gonna go for it. And honestly, like, that reflects an advantage Democrats have. Like, you know, young people, pop culture, kind of liberal Hollywoodness, like, those are all the reasons why Obama era had a different type of cultural energy. And I think, you know, them nominating people like Joe Biden, like...
Has it has made it unable for them to tap into that. But that's always been there for Democrats. And the second they have someone who's more reflective of that, much less a California celebrity for years herself, that really affords them ability to unleash this. I'm curious for all of you, would you bring in Michelle Obama or George Clooney? Is there any thoughts, Sabrina? Yeah.
I mean, we have seen Michelle Obama speak at prior conventions. And so I wouldn't be surprised if she makes an appearance, even if it hasn't been advertised. Clooney, of course, famously did write that op-ed in the New York Times calling on Biden to step aside. I don't know if he's going to be rewarded with a speech on stage, but...
You know, this is not just to Seth's point an opportunity to really engage young voters. That's where celebrities can have some impact. And young voters was certainly a big vulnerability for Biden. But this is also, you know, a huge fundraising boon for the party. Right. So a lot of this they've been they've been really boasting the Democrats since Harris took over the top of the ticket about, you know, the huge surge in grassroots funding. That's also a key part of the convention. And especially when you have celebrities get involved.
you know, using their followings to engage voters. It's also about the numbers game. And I think the party is certainly going to hope that having all these, you know, marquee speakers will really help increase those fundraising numbers that they've been touting. But I would also say, though, that just yes, yes on the young people. Yes on the attention. Yes on the money. No on the
individual or average swing voter. It's just not, it's not that they don't care. It's that like, oh, that famous person likes Kamala Harris. Great. Like that's just not, a suburban white guy, just that's not his thing.
Who would be for the suburban white guy, Reid? Who would drive him like, yay? I don't know. As a suburban white guy, I can tell you we're ornery about everything. Maybe a World War II historian or a barbecue expert. Those are probably the two people that would get us excited about something. Or someone who likes Roman history. Exactly. Casey, you've talked about moments and memes because I think one of the things that is being said, these social media influencers have a lot of impact. This is the first DNC they're being accredited alongside mainstream journalists. How
How do you think that's going to change public perception and who should we be following in that regard? What's fascinating about social media, right, is that you never know, right? I mean, like one of the greatest gifts that Kamala Harris ever got was when the RNC did the clip of her making the coconut tree comment.
And there were a bunch of very online folks who loved it. And it kind of turned it into the dry powder that was available to her once she became the nominee. And all of a sudden, she became huge online. So I think you never know what individual influencer is going to be the one that pops out. But I'm absolutely expecting that there will be some kind of meme that emerges from this that'll keep Democrats talking for the next couple of months. Who would you think is important from a social media influencer perspective?
Who should we be watching for? I mean, honestly, I would just go on TikTok. There will be some sound from the convention that trends. Everybody will be stitching it and duetting it. They will be doing a dance, and you won't even have to pick who to follow because it will just show up in your feed. I mean, I feel like that is how meme-making works right now, is it's less about any one individual influencer, and it's about what the hive mind decides to do with the raw materials. Yeah.
Funny part is like the people most responsible for the memeing of Harris might be the RNC research. They're the ones who compiled all of the coconut references. They're the ones who compiled her love of Venn diagrams. It was meant to be a way to prove her as inauthentic, but it's become something that people have latched on to.
as an aside, as somebody who worked at the RNC building for many years and actually grew up there, they have no conception of any sort of popular culture, right? Like that's how disconnected they are from the real world when it comes to that. They're just not very good at it.
Yeah, yeah. But does the DNC's case need a collective like apple dance or macarena moment, for those who are older, to get Gen Z on board? I mean, there's a risk there, right? I mean, like, this has sort of been one of the fun debates heading into the convention is like, should Kamala mention coconut tree, right? Like Tim Walz mentioned the couch meme the other day seemed like it did great things for the Democrats. So maybe there's a case to be made that they should be talking about, you know, coconuts and Venn diagrams at the convention. Yeah.
Um, but you know, I don't know. My instinct is that they're not going to do that. I think that they had a lot of fun with that or in the early weeks, but they feel like now this is the time to get serious and close the deal with Democrats. And so my expectation is actually that you're not going to see them lean into the memes during that. Yeah. I think coconuts are over, at least when it comes to the speeches on the floor. Each of you, I'd love to hear about some, what speakers might have a viral moment or do you just not know? Let's start with you, Sabrina. Well, I think that it's,
You know, the Obamas often can create a viral moment. Again, especially if Michelle Obama does, in fact, take the stage. You know, I think Vice President Harris herself, as we were talking about, could even inadvertently create a viral moment. But I think one thing that's really interesting, just real quick, is, you know, one thing that the Democrats have been contending with is a lot of the backlash to the Biden administration's handling of the war in Gaza has actually come from social media.
It's come from this very large community of pro-Palestinian content creators that has developed over the last 10 months. So it will also be interesting because you will have that juxtaposition of moments on stage with potentially tens of thousands of protesters outside, and that also being live streamed and creating clips online at the same time. So it'll be interesting to see to what extent this convention still offers somewhat of a split screen and
whether the young voters who have been very angry with the administration's handling of the war in Gaza are potentially willing to give the ticket another look with Harris at its forefront. Ested, what do you think about that?
Specifically the question of Gaza? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I do think it's a... It's Chicago again with the protests. Yeah, I do think it's a looming question. I mean, we know that there's going to be a big protest Monday. There's going to be one on Thursday when Harris is speaking. That was what we were really focused on coming into this. There was the specter of 1968 all over again where there was a feeling that folks were going to come and we turned this convention upside down.
I think some of that has been a little neutralized with Harris at the top. There's more unity around the ticket. And she's done a more intentional rhetorical effort to signal sympathy for Palestinians than Biden ever did. And so, you know, even in our own kind of understanding of who's going to be there, I think some of that calculation has changed. But it's absolutely true that there's always a potential for a problem and you're going to have protest. I mean, we I mean.
We did our little security meeting learning about, you know, the different perimeters that the CPD versus Secret Service is setting up. And nothing inspired less confidence. Oh, really? Well, the Chicago Police Department has such a terrific history with presidential conventions. So I definitely don't think we should just skip over that and say that this is going to be a smooth sail. Like that possibility will still be there. So when you saw her, she did push back some of her events against Trump.
and that just happens to be Gaza, which is the one where people are stepping up. Did she do a good job? I thought she did in
Yes, I think she did. And let me say this as the former Republican, not a Democrat on the panel here. Democrats typically need to do more of that. I think most of the time when a Democratic candidate of, I mean, yes, okay, you've got the Obamas, you've got the Clintons, but others, you know, rank and file Democrats at the podium when that stuff happens, they get all tangled in themselves. They don't know what to do. And what I think that the vice president demonstrated there was one, confidence, but
but two, something that often Democrats politically aren't comfortable with, which is dominance, which is, I'm at the microphone, I'm speaking, and let's lay out the stakes.
We can have these disagreements. Do you want Donald Trump to win or do you want me to win? That's the question. And I think as long as she can call the question, I think that she'll be OK with this. Look, we don't know what's going to happen outside the convention hall. I would hope that the mayor of Chicago is talking to the police commissioner and the police chief and saying, you guys leave those batons where they belong. And if they're being peaceful, you're going to be peaceful. Right. I don't we're not cracking heads like 1968. So I think she's done a good job so far.
So escalation. Personally, I think she handled it like it's the auntie with a slipper kind of attitude. Like, what do you say to me? What did you say to me? But Casey, Republicans are weird became a mantra. President Biden and all of his surrogates were focused on democracy at stake, which is a big deal. You're like, oh, I've got to save democracy today.
Harris has not used the democracy of the state, which was all over social media, that's for sure. It made you feel terrible at every moment of the day. Was it a bad message or is weird just easier? You know, Ezra Klein had a great line about this over the past week where he said, you know, something to the effect of the old message was sort of Republicans are going to
ruin America and the new messages they're going to ruin Thanksgiving. And I think that's the idea, right, is that there's something really concrete about saying these people are weird. And when you look at their messaging, you know, there's a lot in there about seemingly, you know, wanting to inspect like girls' genitals and all sorts of stuff that is just, you know, of no concern to the mainstream voter. So I really do think that the Republicans have stepped so far outside the mainstream of what the average person wants out of a presidential candidate that there was an extraordinary return
rhetorical clarifying power of Tim Wall saying that. Sabrina, your thoughts? You know, Cara, one thing that's really interesting about that is democracy was still such a centerpiece of President Biden's campaign message when he was seeking re-election. And as you said, it's not as dominant for Harris. That doesn't mean they don't talk about it. But I know what we've seen in our polling at The Wall Street Journal, and we've seen it elsewhere as well, is that it doesn't
poll is highly on the list of voter priorities. Of course, there are some Democrats who feel very strongly about the threat that they say Trump poses to democracy. But it's just not something that I think Democrats were seeing in their own internals as well as being one of the
main drivers of potential turnout. It's a big thought, isn't it? It's a big thought. It's also Trump's third time on the ballot, right? So at some point, I think people are like, we get it, but we need something else. We need something else that's not just kind of raising the specter of the risk that he poses. And to Casey's point, reproductive rights and how far out of the mainstream Republicans have gone, where even IVF was a question mark, support for IVF, you know, just in recent months,
that's actually where Kamala Harris really found her voice. You know, there was all this, you know, focus on how in her first couple years as vice president, she was given issues that were challenging. Her performance was a bit uneven. And after the reversal of Roe v. Wade, that's when you saw her be the administration's primary messenger on reproductive rights and really kind of regain some kind of momentum. And I think they think that's really a winning issue for Democrats, especially with her at the top of the ticket. But I would say this, though, Cara, that the idea
that democracy is even an issue that people are citing in a survey result is something that we didn't see really, I think, before probably 2018, 2020. But the other part too is, you know, look, as someone who spends my time in the pro-democracy space, I think that the joy that Harris and Waltz and their campaign has generated is
He needs to both harden and to resolve as we get through these next days. But I think also guys like me and former Republicans, we have given up everything to take this guy on, have to say, here's what he is. Here's who he is. Here's what we I mean, think about this.
At their convention in Milwaukee, they had professionally printed signs that said mass deportation now. Right. Like talk about outside the mainstream. Let me let me ask that you have you have said happy Democrats vote, unhappy Democrats don't. The other side of that coin, the assassination attempt on President Trump was right before the RNC, the Republican National Convention. It really set the mood for the whole week apocalyptic. And then their anger was part of it.
Is that playing to a base in a way unhappy Republicans vote? Are they down with their doomsday message and with the Democrats sort of dancing around with coconuts or? Yeah, because I mean, look, I mean, 90 percent of the party is white.
Right. And the age of the white guy is coming to an end. It's been a great 2000 years. Right. And so the whole thing is revanchist, revenge, anger, all of this stuff, whether or not it's the Supreme Court, Dobbs, IVF, education, Project 2025, all of this stuff is meant to attempt to arrest people.
and capture a society and a culture that has moved past them. And they're really, really unhappy about it. So does that work?
Do the maxi pads on the side of the head work? Well, as somebody who just had skin cancer surgery, you know, it doesn't work for me. But I would say this is it works for the people for whom it works, but it doesn't work for a lot of other people. And I think that's why you saw going back through the Republican primaries, you know, 15, 20 percent were saying, you know, I'll take Nikki Haley. That's that's not a secure base for somebody like Donald Trump.
Right. She was talking the other day on Fox about that. Stop doing these angry things and start leaning into hope. Yeah, but that's like telling the sun not to come up in the east. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Delete Me.
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So let's talk a little bit about policies and substance. Instead, your 2023 interview with Kamala Harris re-aired on your podcast, The Run-Up, recently, where you were grilling her on her policies. Where do you think she's going to be leaning in hard? And of course, she's been criticized for not speaking to reporters. Do you think she's avoiding these harder conversations or she just doesn't have to at this moment?
Well, she's avoiding them because she doesn't think she has to, but she's avoiding them. And I think that is who she's been. I mean, I would say that, like, this is where the prosecutor identity is a helpful frame of understanding her. You know, throughout career, there's always been more comfort with her asking questions than giving answers.
This is not someone who I think in a kind of typical politician-y way has spent their kind of media diet laying out a vision of what they think problems are and solutions. This is an accountability-driven person, a person who makes decisions, kind of reacts in a prosecutor, lawyer-y type fashion, but isn't really used to explaining that and doesn't really—
I think oftentimes she needs to, to be honest. And so, you know, I do think that the question of what a Kamala Harris party would be in terms of different than the Joe Biden party is an open one that we don't really know the answer to. We don't. I think that some there are some clues. I think she talks less about she talks more about like a care economy. And I think his version of economy is a little more union labor. I think that, you know, there's rhetorical differences, but how she talks about Gaza, for example, is
particularly. But none of that is strict policy. And I don't think we really know what the priorities would be for her and how that's distinct from Biden. Where do you guess from interviewing her? Where do you guess? I don't get closer to even having talked to her. Like,
It's not because when you place those questions in front of her, she rejects the premise of them, you know? And so, well, that's the very that's the very Mitt Romney, right? You get to ask the question you want to ask and I get to give you the answer I want to give. Right. And so all I'm saying is I do think there is a lack of clarity on what her policy priorities would be or what her kind of governing strategy would be. All I think is also true is that sense of blank slate in this is.
is fine for people over this next three months because it allows her to be a vessel that you can project onto. 100%. And so if you are progressive, moderate, independent, I think there's going to be kind of an ability for you to read into what you want to see with her, and they're going to try to further that. Okay, so the most important policy item on the Harris-Walls campaign. Sabrina, let's start with you, then Casey, then Reid. What do you think she should talk about or will talk about and what she will not talk about? Sabrina, why don't you start?
Well, just to piggyback off of what you said, I think the key is to say a whole lot without really saying anything at all. Right. You know, I mean, it's a lot easier. You say it best when you say nothing at all. Exactly. Chief Whitley, thank you.
immigration, the Democratic Party has to be a bit careful. You have seen a little bit of move to the center under, you know, the Biden-Harris administration because the politics have shifted and been redefined in part by how Republicans frame the issue of immigration. Gaza, I think, is something that she probably doesn't really want to talk about beyond the bare minimum of calling for a ceasefire. She doesn't want to get into issues of should there be an
a U.S. arms embargo against Israel. One of the first questions she faced when she finally did take questions recently was on that very issue. And she generally avoided saying anything specific. You know, obviously, general comments about the economy and the direction of the economy, the care economy, investing in child care, elderly care, health care, education, all the kind of general platitudes you hear from Democrats without many specifics. And I think it's because it's easier to talk about, you know, what you don't want the country to look like policy-wise under Trump. That is where Democrats feel more comfortable.
Talking about Project 2025, talking about all the deportations that might happen under Trump, raising the specter of concentration camps. And that's, I think, where you'll probably see more of the messaging focus is not on her own policies, but on the policies of Trump.
Trump and what would happen if he were given another term in the White House. And I think if you look at previous elections, that's kind of where we've always been. It works. These elections are fundamentally not really one on policy as much as they are on feelings. Feelings. Casey, what about that? What do you think they should avoid?
Yeah, I mean, I think Sabrina is absolutely right. I mean, one thing I expect her to not talk about next week is tech policy, which is basically all I care about. I would love to know what she thinks about AI and about crypto and Section 230 and antitrust. And I think we'll hear about none of it. And it's like probably fine because I don't think it's going to be moving any swing voters one way or another. But those are really consequential issues. And I do think there's this aspect to the Harris campaign where it's like, we're going to elect her and then we're going to find out what she thinks about basically everything.
Right. If we elect her. Yeah, I think I have a sense of what she thinks about those things, but she's right down the middle. And when the tech bros call her liberal, I'm like, oh, no, she really isn't. Reid, what do you think she should avoid and not avoid? Well, so I think Sabrina brought up something that's really important. And as Republicans, as campaigners take as an article of faith, which is campaigns are not about issues. Campaigns are about values. And I think that she should.
She needs less time on issues and more time on values. What does America, as we approach the second quarter of the 21st century, look like? Does it look like Kamala Harris? Yeah. Does it look like Donald Trump? Not nearly as much. Yeah.
And so I think it should be a lot about turning the page, a lot about, frankly, competence, confidence, calm. We have had roiled and turbulent waters. And if you want to apply a lot of that to Trump, I think you can because he's been a freaking blender.
and all of that stuff. And so I would say this is, it should be upbeat, it should be positive, she should draw a contrast. I mean, who is a better contrast, literally or figuratively, to Donald Trump than Kamala Harris? And I think she should embrace that stuff, and then on Wednesday night, let Waltz go out and just be the attack dog. I think Waltz can do that on Wednesday. I think whichever Republicans for Harris they get up on the stage should go ahead and do that stuff. We all lived inside the party, we all saw what it became
With not much pushing, frankly, when he showed up. And that's not anything we want to go back to. Right. So what do you think? Can the campaign balance the potential of giving them ammunition but also using some of the Project 2025 stuff continually? They seem to be leaning into that for sure.
Yeah, for sure. I think that we're going to hear so much of Project 2025 in the DNC week. And I think it's because it's cut through. You know, Republicans, they wrote it down, you know, in a very extensive document. And I think that has provided Democrats a way to say, no matter what they're telling you, here is the plans. And I think that's close enough to Trump that it's really hard to ignore. But I think that the amount of speakers you get next week allows the Democrats
It's both, not either or. Whether Kamala Harris decides to do it in her speech, someone will make the kind of more affirmative policy case. And I think that they're going to spread the wealth in terms of messages across different figures. I expect her actual speech to be more bio-heavy, to be less focused on the weeds. But by the time she comes up to speak, they will have checked a lot of those boxes already. One other thing I don't expect to hear from
is about immigration or laying out the kind of governing strategy on tough issues. But they do have to insulate themselves from the thing that they know Republicans are going to say. And so, you know, we'll get some hints at that stuff later.
But I think her speech we can expect to be fairly general. So, Sabrina, do you think Governor Walz is referred to as he's the attack dog? But you had cited Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's handling of the pro-Palestinian protests as one reason he wasn't chosen as VP. And those groups saw the nod to Governor Walz as a win. That's just on one topic. What is his role?
Well, I think Governor Walz is certainly an attack dog, but we're also going to see, I think, him really have this as an opportunity to introduce himself to the country. Most people didn't know who Governor Walz was. And, you know, it will be much more biographical, I think, his speech in nature. But I don't generally think that vice presidential candidates make a huge difference on the ticket unless they present a major liability. Right.
We saw that with Sarah Palin and we've kind of seen that with J.D. Vance. And so I was going to say that, you know, as soon as Trump selected J.D. Vance, much of the news cycle was dominated by many of the bizarre comments that J.D. Vance has made over the course of his short political career. And I think so. That's also where I think you'll see walls play a central role in really trying to define Republicans, not just through the lens of Trump, but the person that Trump has chosen as his number two. Yeah.
So Casey first and then Reid, what is Waltz's appeal online versus Vance's? And does it matter? I think Waltz's appeal in general is that he just reminds people of like a guy they knew in their town growing up. I mean, he was the high school teacher. He took care of people. He went out of his way to be kind and decent. And it has led to so many great memes online of people just sort of, you know, telling jokes. And the punchline is just always basically like what a good and decent person Tim Waltz is.
And people just seem to be having a lot of fun with that. You know, I think that he breaks through sort of in the same way that Ted Lasso broke through, where like at a time of great like polarization and enmity, here comes along this like relatively like jovial, sweet person, and people are gravitating toward it. So it really is breaking through online, I think has been a huge source of strength for Harris. And what about Vance?
The opposite, right? I mean, you know, I have mixed feelings about the fact that, like, the main thing that people, like, know about J.D. Vance is something that never happened, right? Which is, like, one person goes on Twitter and makes this joke that he... You know what? But you think it could have happened. That's the problem with him, is...
I mean, that's what people say. That's how people are defending it. I think you can find plenty of things that J.D. Vance has actually done that I would rather the Democrats were talking about. But either way, you're right. People have just found a lot of vulnerabilities, and this guy does himself no favors whenever he speaks into a microphone. Reid, does it matter? Does this matter from your perspective, both sides, the happy walls and the creepy walls?
J.D. Vance? I think they do. I mean, vice presidential candidates don't tend to matter. But I would say this is that Waltz is that guy. And I think think about this. We're now nine years into the Trump a scene era. And we've been so unhappy that the idea that a guy who's normal and nice is breaking through. Right. That's how desperate we are for this.
Right. As a people, we're looking for somebody who's nice. And I mean, think about the dichotomy of Tim Waltz, who's the teaching advisor to the gay straight student alliance. And he also takes the football team to the state championship for a lot of guys like me. That's America. That's what America should be. Right. That's the guy you do want as your neighbor. And then the flip side of Vance is as more and more of this stuff piles up. This is not an electoral issue per se, but here's what happens.
sometime, and I think we've already seen whispers of this and our reporter friends on the panel here will know more, there's going to come a time when Trump loses his mind out loud about Vance. And it's going to get out and that's going to become a whole thing. Right? And that's where I think
That's what I spend my time on is reminding Trump what a terrible, terrible decision he made at the hands of Tucker Carlson and Don Jr. And Elon. Don, what were you thinking? And Elon, right. I mean, the short thing is they thought that Joe Biden was going to stay in the race and they were going to waltz into the White House. I mean, which...
maybe wasn't wrong at the time, but was a decision made in an overconfidence. Well, the irony was that they made that decision at a time when there was already immense pressure on Biden to step aside, even if the decision was made at a time of confidence. It was short-sighted, but also it was very telling, even if we all agree that vice presidential candidates don't tend to matter. The fact that Trump said in an interview when he was asked about his own running mate, well, you know, vice presidential picks don't really matter. I mean, you don't actually say that out loud because that within of itself is an acknowledgement that
Yeah. You know, this guy is not great, but hopefully it doesn't matter. Yeah. So going back to the historic nature of the nomination, I want to talk about where we're going to see an identity politics play out over the next few days. We've already seen a slew of attacks on Harris's identity. Trump and Vance were doubling down on turning black, whatever that means. Yeah.
First Ested and then Sabrina, does it seem strange that a black South Asian woman is being accused of leaning out of these identities? And how do you think she's going to address these attacks at the DNC? I mean, I think the days of Michelle Obama's when they go low, we go higher over. That said, she was rather restrained after the turning black thing. So Ested and then Sabrina, what are your thoughts on this?
Well, she doesn't want to talk about it because she doesn't like that kind of self-warrantial stuff, specifically on identity. I mean, I've asked her, did it bother her that people thought she was chosen because of her identity? And she hated that question. Even if she feels that personally, like those attacks are, you know, racist, sexist, whatever, other people will make that argument a lot more than she will herself. So I don't actually expect...
them to, her directly to make some big response here. I imagine the DNC will be an implicit response there, right? Like what the DEI hire accusation is, is a, you know, accusation of lack of qualification, lack of sharpness, that you're here for kind of invalid reasons. And so the DNC will be an effort to tell you a story about someone who's there for 20 reasons, all of which are not their identity. And so I imagine that
It's going to happen. But, you know, Donald Trump doesn't... This isn't like 3D chess. I think Donald Trump says it because...
That's what happens when he sees a Black person on the other side, right? I think it is reflective of a type of politics where he has always tried to drag an opponent down and into the mud. And when he was doing that against Hillary Clinton, the reality was a lot of the country agreed with a lot of those personal attacks, right? Like, he's playing in a different kind of ballgame here now. And I think that's a little different. The only other thing I would say is, like,
I remember when there was a lot of questions around whether Harris would have Black support in the 2019 primary. Obviously, that floats at Biden and other people. But the thing that makes, in my experience of reporting, the things that makes Black people like her the most is when they are defensive around her, when these attacks happen. And so what Donald Trump is doing
It's frankly going to... I think it's very clear that we see a rise in Black support numbers as he's making these attacks. Because one thing Kamala Harris is, you know, she's a lot of boxes, right? Like, she's not just Black, she's South Asian, she's all of these things.
But she's not an inauthentic black person. Like, that lady is black. And so, like, you, Donald Trump coming to that room and then they BJ and making that argument is a ridiculous one. I listened to that clip again this morning and you start to hear the crowd go crazy. Well, I was there. It was actually, here's a funny story. Nicole Hannah-Jones right before, she's like, he's going to say that she's not black. I'm like, really? I don't think so.
I'm like, there's no way he's going to look out at this sea of Black people and go full birtherism. And, like, I was the clown, of course. Like, it was exactly what he did. But I'm saying, like, that level of supervillain status...
is helpful to Kamala Harris. She doesn't have to say anything to respond to it. And probably shouldn't. And probably I don't think shouldn't. Like, the work will be done for her. Right, right. Let me ask you, Sabrina, actually, I'm going to ask you a slightly different question that you wrote a very personal essay last year in the Wall Street Journal about being one of just two journalists who traveled with President Biden on a surprise trip to Ukraine.
On your first assignment after returning from maternity leave, the essay titled How Will I Pump? And you wrote, what a difference it makes when working moms are inside the room to make decisions. I obviously have four kids. I gave birth to my oldest. I have pumped.
I'm curious. I'd like you to focus more on the women, the cat lady comments, the women comments and how the Harris-Waltz campaign is going to deal with those. I think that that is absolutely something that Democrats have really wanted to capitalize on because, you know,
It's not just the historic nature of Harris's candidacy as the first female vice president who is now running for the highest office in the land. It's also the contrast with these bizarre comments that Republicans, and in this case, you know, J.D. Vance,
the, you know, Republican vice presidential nominee are making about childless cat ladies. I think he said something, you know, it's funny, it was supposed to be an innocuous comment about how grandmothers can play an active role in raising families. But then he took it a step further and said that the sole existence of postmenopausal women is basically to raise their grandchildren. It's always that step further. And, you know, Harris herself. But that's where the truth comes out. Right. That's where the truth comes out. And Harris herself, you know,
You know, to deny her motherhood because she's a stepmom is obviously an insult to the many step parents across America. So I think that the Harris campaign and Democrats are very much eager to, you know, highlight those comments. Family values. Family values. And just to draw a contrast, especially among women voters.
Single women have been a core constituency for Democrats for many election cycles. And then when you're trying to recapture the coalition that put Biden into the White House, suburban women are a really big part.
big part of that. So Reid and Casey, this is interesting. J.D. Vance is playing in this whole trad wife trend family values. They're hearing a lot about on the right. How important will these messages be for the independents or never Trump Republicans need to win over swing states like Pennsylvania, even traditionally red states with crucial districts like Omaha, Nebraska? I think it matters for a couple of reasons. One, and I think we should add IVF to this too. You know, we in our research, we have a cohort of
white Republican men we call Dobbs dads right like me I got two teenage daughters at home and
And the issue, right, and this is, I think, an important distinction between the issue and the value. The issue might be abortion. The value is individual liberty. Mind your own damn business. Who can tell me and my family, and in particular as a dad, what I've got to do, right, or what I may face if we get into a situation we didn't expect?
And I think on the mom front, this is so out to lunch and so antithetical to the world that I live in that, again, there's a reason why there's a sizable Republican contingent for Kamala Harris, who I lived in California 10 years ago, right, when she was DA and then attorney general. If you had told me 10 years ago that I would be ride or die for Kamala Harris, I would have thought you'd gone to South America with Aaron Rodgers and was doing ayahuasca. Like, I wouldn't have believed it.
Right. But here's where we are, which is there will be a sizable number of Republicans on the stage in Chicago. There were no Democrats with the exception of whatever Russian asset they had up there. And I think that's a really big deal. We'll be back in a minute.
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So, Casey, you had called this a shitpost election. Explain what you meant by that, the information being propagated on both sides, like Vance the couch meme and stuff like that. And how is it different than previous cycles?
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, in 2016 and 2020, we were on such hyper alert for misinformation, disinformation, interference with campaigns. We're very wrapped up in the idea that, you know, every single thing needed to be true. And I was just really struck when the couch memes came along that Democrats had sort of abandoned any care about whether they were true or not. And when I pointed this out, I was, you know, derided for being a killjoy and a, you know, humorless jerk and all that sort of thing. Which you are. Which I am. Yeah.
But, you know, I just really thought it was worth noting because I think if, you know, you'd sort of seen a similar fake meme about a Kamalardo viral, you probably would have seen a lot of pushback and people would be calling for social networks to intervene and to put labels on that sort of content. And it just struck me that this time around, we just don't seem to care about that as much.
Well, the boomerang of the online weirdness and online misinformation and disinformation is now caught up to the Republicans. Right. Which I think that's what it is. But all of you, something Casey wrote, let me read this. Every day now on social media, these threats come together. This is about generative AI. AI tools make bullshit. Bullshit gets turned into shitpost. Shitpost take over national conversation. 2024 became the shitpost election is what he wrote.
This is the first presidential election since generative AI really came into play. Trump recently alleged that the Harris campaign had used AI to manipulate an image from her campaign stop in Detroit to make it look there were more people. I'd love, first, to send you talking about that. It looks like Trump is laying groundwork for election denial here.
claims. But it said first, and then Sabrina, we saw him do that. Is this him doing that, using AI as sort of the menacing aspect of it? Yeah, I mean, it's a new tool for him to make the same old argument. And so, you know, we were at CPAC, the conservative convention earlier this year, and the episode we did was about how Republicans are pretty explicit that the only way they think this election is fair is if Donald Trump wins.
And so whether it's AI or anything else, that's where the kind of open, you know, that's where they are on this. And I think it's a good thing to flag. You know, he's been trying to minimize the energy that we've seen from the Harris campaign, and he's used the accusations of AI in the crowd to do so. And so, like, I think that, you know...
Whether it's AI or not, the groundwork for election denial has always been there and continues to be. You know, we did an ad where we stitched together all of Donald Trump's weird cognitive issues in speeches, and he accused us of using AI to do it, too. So this is not the first time he's done it this year. He has done it. He will do it more because it allows...
It's his attempt to create... An alternative reality campaign. In his head, external. But again, I don't remember if it was... I think it was Casey who said this. Outside of the bubble that they've created for themselves, it doesn't translate. It's like trying to read Portuguese or something. Normal people don't get it. They can't understand it. Sabrina, what do you think he's up to here? Does it help or hurt Harris effectively, this alternative reality? For example, he's saying he's leading in all the real polls, whatever those are.
Obviously, it's absurd. Is it effective in any way from your perspective when you're looking at it? I don't think it's necessarily effective as much as it's setting the stage for what could happen after the election is called. And if it's called in Harris's favor, the same way that he spent the months leading up to the 2020 election casting doubt on the legitimacy of mail-in ballots, right? It was all part of this effort to
already put in the psyche of Republican voters that the election was going to be illegitimate. I think AI was a bigger threat to President Biden when he was on the ticket because there was a lot of misinformation and AI generated images and videos that were trying to seize on the vulnerabilities around his age.
Obviously, there were plenty of real examples where you saw concerns about his age on display, but there were also a lot of videos that were clearly made using generative AI. With Harris, I think what Trump is doing is, one, he's just unraveling because...
You know, he can't handle what's happened, the shift in the momentum in the last few weeks. But two, you know, where the risk is, is will he and Republicans use this technology to try and come up with ways in which they claim to have proof that something untoward happened in the counting of ballots? You know, will they try and use videos or images that were...
made using generative AI to try and suggest that the election was stolen, that there was some kind of illegitimate activity happening, you know, in the states where these elections are being called. But ultimately, I think what people would hope is that the same checks and balances that existed in 2020 would prevail in 2024. In this case, the legal processes that exist, the courts, you know, Congress and its role in certifying the election, if that remains intact,
then this is more a psychological campaign, you know, an effort to get his supporters to protest the outcome of the election. If for some reason, of course, those checks and balances are thrown into doubt, then you have a much different potential outcome here. Again, this is all if Harris wins. But that's where I think they're going to try and use the technology in their favor. And we should assume that they will, because the one thing I found after fighting these people as long as I have is that if you expect the worst of them, you're never disappointed.
Right. That is absolutely true. So speaking of the worst, I have two more questions. One, obviously, is the Elon Musk moment in this interview. He had a kind of off-the-rails interview with Elon, a very giggly Elon, last Monday. Casey, you've written that X is a political project now. There's been a spate of stories about Elon's spending time on politics, obviously, as he's shifted rather considerably, I can tell you that, from hating Trump, which he expressed to me many, many times, to...
to what's happening now, which is hard to understand. But what's your big takeaway from that event? And I love everyone else's thoughts on that. Does it matter at all? I think so. I mean, we've never seen the owner of a major social network before decide to pivot the enterprise into getting a single candidate elected. If Mark Zuckerberg had had a friendly conversation with Joe Biden on Facebook
live in 2020, Republicans would still be holding hearings about it to this day. So I think that just shows sort of how much things have shifted. I think it shows the degree to which Elon Musk truly does not care that I think X will just be a money losing prospect, like probably forever now. At every turn, he has just leaned further into far right politics. And I do think we should note that it's we have not seen something like this before. Is it effective?
Well, I mean, you can look at what's happening in the national polls. You know, I'm continually struck by how for all the money they have, for all the access they have to distribution, you know, Elon has what, 193 million or so followers on X. And like, at the end of the day, you know, these billionaires are powerful, but they're not popular, right? They're not likable.
And Elon in particular is a lot less likable than he used to be. And so I think the further we see him lean in this direction, the fewer fans it seems like, you know, he has around the world. Yeah, he was DeSantis, remember? And then he was RFK. Now he's with Trump. So whoever he goes with seems to light up like a dumpster fire. Anyone else's thoughts on Elon? Yeah, I mean, I think this version of Twitter...
is the most irrelevant. It's not like it has lost its relevance completely. There's still, like, a set of decision-makers, news-makers, a way to drive things. But I do think there is a greater distance between that conversation and the one happening cross-electorate. I think that gap has always been big, but it's gotten even bigger. And so, to the extent that I think you are existing in the Twitter hive mind,
is an extent I think you're losing an election. And honestly, Democrats are the best example. I think they spent the last year and a half insulating themselves from the reality of Biden's political shortcomings. And they partially did that through existing in safe spaces like MSNBC and their fans on Twitter. And I think as Donald Trump does that on the conservative side, it also does not serve him well. And I think Elon Musk, his personal beliefs,
have never been further from median voter. And I think to Casey's point,
His also his cultural relevance seems to have shifted, too. So even him as like cool space guy, I don't think is how people most people ingest him now. Yeah. OK, last question. After the DNC, Vice President Kamala Harris will have about 75 days to make her case to the American people. I love a short election, I have to tell you, and I hope we do that in the future. Her poll numbers are up now, but obviously Democrats are worried about a 2016 repeat being too confident, getting blindsided in November.
From your perspective, what, where is Harris's biggest strength and what's her Achilles heel? Said, and then Sabrina? Her biggest strength is Donald Trump's weakness, to be honest. The strongest coalition in American politics is an anti-Trump one. We have seen this in midterms. We've seen this in the health of Democrats and kind of local and state races. And they were frankly making it harder for themselves to
by picking the worst messenger possible in Joe Biden. They have alleviated themselves of that concern. And so I think Harris benefits from a united party whose main motivation remains stopping Trump from getting another term. The weakness, I would say...
is in the same way a blank slate is helpful, it can be harmful too. And so as I previously described her as like a projection of people's hopes, you can also become a projection of people's negatives too. And so I think they're going to have to do some work defining themselves before Republicans do that for them. And so that's what I think the challenge of the DNC will be. But they have the momentum at their back
And frankly, I think it's gone from being Republicans' race to lose, in my opinion, to being Democrats' race to lose. Okay. Sabrina?
I think that the strength that's working in Harris's favor is that she's being given an opportunity to really reintroduce herself to the American public. And so insofar as people were analyzing her poll numbers and saying, well, her approval ratings are similar to those of President Biden, you can look at that more as a floor, not a ceiling. You know, when I talk to a lot of people, they said, well, she only has room to grow because
A lot of people have only really known her in the context of her being vice president. But now they're getting to know her in a fundamentally different way at a time when a lot of people were just looking for anyone who is not named Donald Trump or Joe Biden. And now they have that person, rightly or wrongly. I know there's a lot of frustration among Democrats when you draw any comparisons between Trump and Biden. And that's not what I'm doing in terms of their, you know, who they are as candidates. But most Americans just wanted...
anyone else to vote for. And now they have Kamala Harris and they have this opportunity now in the coming months to get to know her more than they have over the last three and a half years. I think the weakness is overconfidence, complacency, as you said. They don't want a repeat of 2016 where it looks like Democrats are having this big kumbaya moment and it's all light and it's all hopeful and it's all
you know, rainbows and unicorns compared to the, you know, darkness that you see on the Republican end. And then it turns out that, you know, there's a big surprise in November. It turns out voters were really angry. And that is what dictated the outcome of the election. And I also think they don't want to take some of the fissures that still exist within the Democratic Party for granted. Yes, I think that some of the Gaza backlash has been a little bit
neutralized by Harris being on ticket instead of Biden, but it hasn't gone away. They have to be careful not to be dismissive of voters who are
core part of the Democratic constituency in an election where all it will take is a handful of voters in one district to choose to stay home or to vote third party to potentially swing this thing the other way. So that is where they have to be very careful, you know, not to not just in, you know, risking being overconfident, looking at what the implosion or potential implosion of the Trump campaign, but also assuming that everyone is now united behind Harris within the Democratic Party. Right. I think Democrats have a better time being not
not getting along that Republicans do for sure in that regard. So it may be able to do that. Casey, and then Reid, you finish up. I mean, I think a big strength that she has is that she's new blood, as some of the other panelists have been mentioning, right? It's not all that often in American politics that we get someone who feels like a new character. And while she has been vice president for the past four years, she has not been in the limelight nearly as much as she has been over these past few weeks. So I just think that that is a huge advantage, right? We crave novelty in our politics, and we're finally getting it.
And then as far as a weakness, I would say that the kind of meme version of Kamala is that she is a little kooky, right? Is that she's not that serious. And I think that there is a bit of a gap to close there where, you know, in the next couple months, she's going to have to convince Democrats that she is a really serious person with a serious policy agenda and can be the president of the United States. And I think there's some ground to be made up there.
OK, read, finish it up. Yeah, look, I think on the advantage, I think that it's also a matter of reminding Americans across the aisle that she will be a president for Americans across the aisle. I think that's important. And then the downside is and this goes to what I think the other panelists have talked about. But let me get a little bit tactical on it, which is the Harris Waltz campaign will have a bad day. That's going to happen.
The key for them will be making sure that that bad day doesn't become a bad few days or a bad week and a rut they can't get out of, which then leads, as I love my Democratic allies, to all of them going, oh, God, what are we going to do now? Right. Because they love to be happy, but they almost love to be unhappy more, if that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thank you guys so much. I really appreciate it. I'm very excited to go to the DNC and we'll see how it goes, but it should be a very exciting weekend. I appreciate your insights for our listeners. Have fun, Cara. Thank you.
On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Kateri Yochum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney, Sheena Ozaki, and Gabriela Bielo. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Kate Furby, and Kaylin Lynch. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.
If you're already following the show, you've got a ticket to the DNC. If not, stop doing the Macarena and learn the Apple Dance. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.
The first half of 2024 was defined by a slew of A-list album releases. But the second half, that belongs to the newcomers. I'm Rihanna Cruz, senior producer of Switched on Pop. And over the course of our brand new series, The Newcomers, we'll be talking to some artists, popular in their own right, that are popping off right now and who we think you should be listening to.
There's our pop darlings, Latin superstars, and those in between. Tune into Switched on Pop wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Amazon Prime.
