Nancy Pelosi on the ‘Decision to Win’ in 2024
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Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I am Kara Swisher. My guest today is one of the most powerful women in American political history, Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. I met her a long, long time ago. She was my representative in San Francisco since I lived there decades ago, and we met

in San Francisco where I would complain about various things to her and got to know her along the way as well as her husband. I love having Nancy Pelosi as my representative and I think she's made an astonishing speaker. She really has that, did have that caucus in control when she was running it and has really made it as strong as it's become over the years.

Speaker Pelosi has had a storied career in politics, obviously, and it's all in a memoir she has coming out tomorrow, August 6th, called The Art of Power. It's a very befitting title, if you ask me. She's been a representative in Congress for more than 35 years. In 2007, she became the first woman to serve as Speaker of the House, who is second in line to the presidency. In 2019, she took...

Back the gavel. During Biden's first State of the Union, two women were sitting on the dais behind the president. And if it's up to Pelosi, next time it will be a woman, Vice President Kamala Harris, giving that address.

The speaker knows the art of power indeed, and I feel a little bit that she rolled over me in this interview, but it'll be another one going forward. And there are a lot of questions recently, though, about how much power she wielded in President Biden's decision to step out of the race. I asked her about all of that when this episode was recorded live at the Future Caucus Summit at Georgetown University on July 25th.

about the party's sudden pivot, her comments about favoring a competitive open primary, and her hope for Vice President Kamala Harris, who is, by the way, also from San Francisco. San Francisco is having a moment. Our question day comes from the Veep. No, not Kamala Harris. The TV Veep, the one and only, and also a former guest on On, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Yes, sometimes life does imitate art. ♪♪

It is on. All right. Oh, God. What's new, Nancy? Lord in heaven, you keep creating news. Good morning. Good morning. Okay. All right. Is it Emerata, Emerata, or Emerita? If I were a man, you would be calling me Speaker. Speaker, then. That's it. Thank you.

Then I shall. Then I shall. Speaker for Life, Nancy Pelosi. Thank you. Speaker Amarada is the position, the title. Okay, Speaker for Life again. Nancy Pelosi, thank you so much for being here and speaking with me at Future Caucus.

For a live episode of On with Kara Swisher, you are arguably the most powerful woman in American political history thus far. I can't imagine a better time or person to talk about how to be an effective leader, how to maintain integrity in Washington, and what it means to get and keep power as a woman in politics. So let's go. We ready?

All right. When you are. We've spoken many times before over decades, I would say. We've known each other for a very long time. We're having a conversation at the end of pretty much an incredible month for American democracy, an incredible year, a couple of years in history. In the span of seven days, we've witnessed an attempted assassination of a former president and Republican presidential candidate, and then a nearly unprecedented exit from the race of his opponent, the sitting president, Joe Biden.

You've been in government for more than 35 years. We've known each other that entire time, I think. Can you remember a time that felt this chaotic, or would you use another word for it? Well, I think apart from the assassination attempt, which is a horrible thing and has no political violence, has no place anywhere,

As one who has been a victim of it, I can say it has to stop because it's just not what we are about as a country. But apart from that, this is a pretty exciting time. It's about the future. It is a chaotic time, but it's about possibilities. The president made a beautiful speech, I thought, about his decision to move forward.

Well, he has always said, for as long as I've known him, and it's about 40 years, more than I've even been in Congress, when I was chair of the party in California and this or that,

He's always said the word that he identifies with America is possibilities. And I thought that what he talked about last night were the possibilities that he fulfilled in the beautiful agenda that has made him one of the most consequential presidents of all time in American history. And people will see that more clearly once he gets out there, not as a candidate, but as a president himself.

not running for office, A. B, possibilities about saying, as he bragged about the accomplishments, which I was very proud of too, because our members had to take some pretty tough votes to make all of that happen. So it's part of our legacy as well. But in order for the progress to continue, it was necessary to pass the torch.

And that was quite remarkable. And because he believed in the possibilities, believed in the future. And so we're pretty excited about it. It wasn't as chaotic as, shall we say, the press was making it sound. It's the media's fault. Go ahead.

- Say what? - I said it's the media's fault. - No, it's not the media's fault, but they didn't know what was happening. So, oh, it's chaos. No, it wasn't chaos. It was a path. And we are the Democratic Party. We are not a lockstep Republican Party that takes orders from anybody. We have our own spontaneity, our own exuberance. Sometimes it's very exuberant, but nonetheless, with a goal, with a purpose, with a timetable, with milestones, and again, as you see,

something that was accomplished for the future, for more possibilities for America. So let's talk about the specifics of that so you can talk about the non-chaos that seemed slightly chaotic to a lot of people watching from the media. Not me. But we're taping. Okay, all right, okay.

You know, years ago, just a personal story, the Speaker invited me to the Democratic caucus out in a hotel in Virginia to talk about the internet many years ago. And I brought my son, who is young at the time, he's at Michigan right now, he's older, and he watched everything and was very careful, and he came up to the Speaker and he said, how do you run this chaotic mess? Because everybody was arguing with each other, and she goes, oh, it's like a family, it

It gets along. It looks more chaotic than it is. But you said a similar thing. We're not in lockstep. We're not. It's OK to disagree. And but she goes, but when things need to happen, I make them happen. I'm in charge. We all do. Yeah. Which I think you really are. So let's talk about that, your role. First of all, we're taping this a few days since President Biden's historic announcement.

Have you spoken to him since last night? Not at all? No, no. And since the speech last night, so you were not privy to what he was going to talk about? No, no, no, no.

So a lot's been written about your role. There was one source that said, Nancy made it clear we could do this the easy way or the hard way. Political? I didn't say that. I have said that about everything. Okay. But I didn't say that about the president of the United States. So talk a little bit. Not this president. Not this president. I think.

I think that was just the hard way with him, but okay. When President Biden appeared on Morning Joe, he had talked about Leeds pushing him out of the race. Obviously, you had been on Morning Joe a couple days before, which was the most...

It was both funny and so deaf to watch you saying the time was running short for Biden to decide. Now, he had decided. And a lot of people were like, why is she saying he has to decide? I was like, oh, it's not the decision she wants him to make. But talk a little bit about that because you became the center of a lot of what people felt was

Some people thought it was pushing out. Others thought it was the right thing to do to show leadership. I'd love you to clarify your role there. Well, let me just say I love Joe Biden. I probably had one of the best relationships. I cannot speak to all these relations, but for 40 years, when I was starting all this, I was a grassroots activist and then became chair of the California Democratic Party in California.

In California, it rotates north and south. And when my term was up, after years of being chair of the party in the state, they had a big thing at our convention, a thousand people at a dinner to celebrate. We had fun and it was great. Right in the first row of the first table, 40 years, 41 years ago, was Joe Biden. So we really go back a long way. I have enormous respect for his vision for our country that he's always had.

his values that are fundamental to what he does, his knowledge of the issues, his knowledge of the issues which gives him great judgment on how to get things done, and his strategic thinking. So this is the full package. Not only that, that's all in the head, in the heart, the empathy that he has for the American people. He knows everything.

The respect that I have had for him for three generations my husband and I my children and my grandchildren love Joe Biden and I just got the Presidential Medal of Freedom from the president. I mean well, I was stunned when he called his day, right so Now talking about campaigns campaigns are you always are making strategic decisions? You're on a path to

but to evaluate as you go along. And this was, okay, let's have a reaffirmation of the decision, whatever it may be. Don't tell anybody I said this, okay? I was completely focused and determined that what's-his-name would never be president of the United States again. Donald Trump...

the threat to our democracy. He doesn't like when we say that, as a threat to our democracy. And if you look at the vision of the two parties that we just came from a press conference for Kamala, her vision, Joe Biden's vision, our vision for America versus Project 2025, abolish the Department of Education, a head start. I mean, it's...

It's 900 pages, I won't go into the whole thing, but a different vision for America. But apart from that, in terms of integrity, in terms of values, in terms of patriotism, in terms of global respect, this man cannot set foot in the White House ever again. Was that too political? No. So anyway, that was my purpose now.

When you want to win an election, and I know this is a bipartisan group. I'm talking about America. I'm not talking about Democrats. I'm talking about America. When you want to win, you make a decision. It's a decision to win. And then you make every decision in favor of winning, whether it's your mobilization and how you own the ground to get out that vote, because the rest of it's just a conversation unless you do that.

unless you have a message of discipline and non-menacing but forward-thinking, boldest possible consensus message to put forth. Money, the third one. But it's really about maintaining that. Now, the most important part of a decision to win an election is the candidate.

is the candidate. We're very proud of Joe Biden as President of the United States. I think we could have all done better in telling the public what we did with the rescue package, American Rescue Plan, shots in arms, money in pocket, children in school safely, people back to work, child tax credit. The list goes on and on. Pensions for our union workers and that. So all of that, but wasn't registering in terms of public's

recognition, appreciation for what it was. And now I want to just say this one more thing. People don't vote for you for what you've done. They want to know what you're going to do. And nobody is rewarded for what they've done. But you can show you know how to get something done, that you have shared values, that you can accomplish something, that

And that's what we have to put out there. We have to finish the job. We have to get it all done. And it's many more things, especially about women in the workplace, family and medical leave, child tax credit, all that. I got it. Okay, so...

So talk about why. I mean, what you were saying in that morning Joe interview was Joe make a different decision than the decision because he had made a decision, right? You felt the candidate wasn't getting through, Joe Biden candidate.

even if he had in the past and everything else. Well, what I was saying that day is there was some unease about what was not registering in the public. Plus the debate performance. Mm-hmm. Plus the debate performance. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was one night, but it wasn't a good night. Let's say that. Is this an episode or is this a condition? You know, we need to know that. People need to know that. But the president had...

31, himself making 32 heads of state coming together in Washington for a NATO summit. A very big deal. Under his leadership, working together with people, other heads of state, he strengthened NATO to be the true security force that it has been designed to be and what it had been. And he grew it by two states, two.

Finland and Sweden. This is remarkable. And here they were coming together for the 75th anniversary of NATO. And so I was saying that day, if you have something to say, let's just wait until

the NATO summit is over. Don't do that when you have 31 heads of state. And that's really what... Actually, I was on the show for a completely different reason. We had signed up for that. It was NATO-related because the woman who had won to be president of Belarus, just a beautiful, wonderful leader...

asked me if I would do an op-ed with her, which I did, go on Morning Joe with her, which I did. You know, we did all these things. And so when we got there, all they wanted to talk about was the debate. Obviously, it is news. News is news. And it was a terrible performance. But your words were particular. Can you talk about that from a... You had to know how it would be seen, correct, from a leadership perspective? Because here you are, a very close ally of Joe Biden. At the same time,

You were giving him a gentle nudge in the direction of perhaps you should reconsider the decision you made, correct? Well, not necessarily. I mean, the point is, as I said earlier, campaigns have to adjust their strategy as they go along. So we have to win. This man can never go near the White House in a matter of miles. Again, Trump. But—

I'm sorry if you're offended by that, but this is so different. I mean, I have disagreed with the Trump, with the Bush family. I love them, but we disagree on the war in Iraq and those kinds of things. But they're patriots. You just have disagreement. This is a different story. So you felt it was too critical to have any weakness in the campaign. So let's either get this campaign started

where it needs to be. That was really more about, let's get this campaign where it needs to be. Did you think him stepping down was the only solution in that case? No, no, no. No, I did not. No, at that time, no. I did not. I thought that we just... But you know what? I'm...

I feel like I was almost a victim of all this because I loved him so much. I've had such a history. I have a full appreciation of what he has accomplished, his specific knowledge of things. He's...

He's just, as I say, one of the most consequential presidents. So for me to have this turn out this way and people thinking—but they made their own decision. Does he think that, do you think? I have no idea. Nothing's spoken to me. How are you going to approach him now? I wanted you to talk about—Obama called President Biden the patriot of the highest order for stepping down. A lot of people are saying similar things. How do you look at what he's done here and—

If he blames you or elites or anyone else, how are you going to dialogue that with him? And you also have given up the gavel, obviously. You did step down. So talk, how do you, do you empathize with Biden? How hard was it for you to bow out and how do you? It wasn't hard for me to bow out, except I wanted to win. And so we're going to get, we want Hakeem Jeffries as Speaker of the House in about five months, in about five months.

No, I ran again in order to—my only decision was, I know I'm going to bow out, but even if we won, I would have bowed out. But would I stay? But I had to stay to make sure that Donald Trump never sets foot in the White House again, A. We've got that message. And B, that we would—yeah, but I don't usually like to say his name. Any Catholics in the room? See, when I grew up, if you said a curse word—

and got run over by a truck, you would go to hell because you had used a curse word. So I consider it a bad word to use in that kind of a way. So I usually don't use it, but I don't want to move all doubt about which president I'm talking about. Okay. All right, but talk about that idea of what he did here.

Whether you get saying Nancy pushed him out or whatever, what did he do here from your perspective? He did a great patriotic thing. There's nothing that the public appreciates more than selflessness. He did a selfless thing for our country, for our country. And as he said, for more progress to be made, it's necessary to pass the torch. And Kamala was ready for that. We're so proud of her.

She's a determined, strong person, committed to getting the job done. And you see, just for one example, freedom, a woman's right to choose, the freedom that is the democracy issue that that is. Personally, I've known her forever, and she is a person of great faith,

and great commitment to public service in a very unselfish way. And then politically, make no mistake, this is a sharp, politically astute person. She is prepared to lead us to victory. So I'm excited about that. So when he

There were those of us who thought, let's have an open convention and do this or that. And I always thought that would be the case, but she wrapped it up right away. And we said, you'll be stronger if you're part of a convention. Can you talk about that? Why that happened that way? Because you had said, and you told allegedly your fellow delegates from California, if Biden exited the race, you'd favor a competitive open primary.

Obviously, the Republicans are using it as a talking point. They've all repeated it over again. Who cares? I get that. I understand that. But, all right, who cares is the answer. Now, I mean, you can't, you know, go as slow as their pathetic bankrupt of idea ship, you know. Okay, all right. This is about a bandwagon that's leaving the station. So you think that the fact that there's not an open competitive... No, there was. Anybody could have jumped in. She just...

Overwhelmed. Overwhelmingly. I mean, they had 44,000 African-American women on a Zoom call.

44,000. Now, I have always said, and my members can tell you, the smartest voters in America are African-American women. They know. They can tell the difference. So talk about that speed, because she raised a whopping $81 million in 24 hours. Everyone jumped on board. How did that happen so quickly, given some people, even you, President Obama, said it should be open and competitive? Yeah.

But then it happened. What happened from a— Well, it was open and competitive, and she won. It wasn't— In 24 hours. Right. It just happened. And I thought that she would be stronger if there was competition, and she won. But she took care of that right from the start, as I say, a very astute politician. How do you think that happened?

- I think it was young, new generation, new fresh thinking, entrepreneurial in every way, beautiful diversity of our country, a woman, not only a woman, a woman of color,

It was just too attractive. She has been in the background, though, as vice president and much pilloried, really, for her term as vice president. That's what vice presidents are, background. Right, background. So there's nothing different about that. So what gives you the confidence to—

And what challenges do you think she and the campaign face going forward? They're obviously trying to cast her as too liberal elite from California, which you have undergone. You used to be the scary leftist communist for many years.

How do you overcome that criticism? It has worked before, that idea. So what do you think her best assets are as a leader and the one thing you would advise her, the challenge she'll face, given you underwent the same thing? Well, it's very important for people to know this is not a personal possession. This is the nomination of the Democratic Party

And again, a reflection of the people that we all represent. So there has to be a consensus message. It can't be a menacing message of, "I've always wanted to do this." No. What is -- You have to govern from the center. Now, I'm a left-wing San Francisco liberal, but you have to govern from the center. And people have to feel that their voices will be heard and valued and the rest.

And of course, you want the boldest, most progressive position that is non-menacing, governing from the center. And you're the president of the United States.

And you listen, you learn, you bring it together in the way that it meets the needs of the American people. It always goes to the kitchen table, not the corporate table, not the cabinet table, not the world speaker's table. The kitchen table is the dominant force in America. What is it that we're doing to create jobs, to educate children, to protect their environment and the safety of it, to have

have a country at peace so that people can thrive and the rest. Woman's right to choose is an economic kitchen table issue, the size, the timing, and if you're going to have a family. Why should that be up to the MAGA courts or politicians in Washington, D.C.? So the

consensus, the consent, not the weakest position, the boldest position that has the consensus to go forward, but is, again, reflective of the various, as I always say, what works in Michigan, as a message, works in San Francisco. What works in San Francisco may not work in Michigan. So why don't we go where we can win? So when you give her, the advice you give her is to

go more toward the center or think about appealing to lots of Americans? Oh, no. Here's my advice, and this is not just for her. It's for all of you. Be yourself. Be yourself. Be who you are. Know your why. Know your why. Because this is not for the faint of heart. This is a rough arena to be in, says I. And so it's not about somebody else telling you what to do. It's

It's what is inside of you. And that's what I want all of you to do. Know your why. Have the confidence of you. Be ready because you never know. And here she is ready. We'll be back in a minute.

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So let's talk about the obvious, though. As a woman of color, some of the attacks are leftist,

That's one of them that I've been seeing. The other is she's a woman of color. She's running against a candidate who's made countless racist and sexist remarks over his political career, was found liable of sexual abuse by a civil court. Harris called Trump a sexual predator, fraudster, and a cheat at her first rally as presidential candidate in Wisconsin. You have called him deranged, unhinged, and dangerous in the past. I think that's the nicer version. Those are euphemisms. Yeah. So...

He had a startling number of Americans not only accept that kind of behavior from Trump, but they embrace it. Do you worry about the impact? This is historic, another historic situation. A woman president, a woman of color president. Do you worry about the impact of sexism and racism on the race? I don't necessarily worry about it, but I recognize that it's there. Let me just say...

I was fully ready to leave Congress and all the rest when Hillary Clinton became president of the United States. I knew the Affordable Care Act, which I feel very proprietary about, would be safe and this or that. I was stunned that people would vote for such a creature, but they did.

And so who are those people? They are to be respected. They're people who vote in our country. Some of them we will never get. They do not share our values, and you know what I mean, in terms of sexism, racism, all the rest of that. Some of them just don't want to pay tax, so they've got a lot of money. They pour it into these campaigns, millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars. There are not many of those rich people,

nationally, but there are a lot of money that funds the operation. And then you have people in the middle who genuinely have been fearful about globalization, innovation, immigration, diversity, women and LGBTQ and people of color and the rest, threatening their, not threatening, but just

well, they have a certain insecurity about what it means for how they go forward. And that is to be respected. And that's why we want the Biden agenda, the Biden-Harris agenda to be out there because it was about respect.

Either more education or jobs that do not require a college degree where you make $80,000, $100,000 a year with trades and the rest of that. And so that people knew that there was a place for them. You have a scientist who's doing research that takes PhD in this or that, but also takes a carpenter degree.

It also takes a plumber. It takes an electrician. It takes people to build all of that. So how do we go down these paths together? And then if people want to get higher education, it's available to them. One of the things that I'm really worried about in their Project 2025

He says he doesn't even know the people. Well, one of them was the head of the Office of Management and Budget for him in his White House. One was the head of personnel in his White House. He doesn't know them. Well, maybe he's getting a little...

forgetful himself. But in any event, I don't really believe that. He knows who they are, and he knows what they're doing. And it's a vision for America. They call it a Christian nationalism. I'm a Christian. I respect that part of it. But that's not what this is about. It's a Christian nationalism. It's a national xenophobia. It's a nationalist...

populism. It just has this cast to it. And it's different from what our founders had in mind, what our men and women in uniform fought to protect, and what our children have a right to live in. But he is ahead at this moment. Now, she has brought the numbers up in a very quick flash polls. It looks like she's rising to the thing. He's still ahead. How do you explain that?

You know, here you are. You have all this power. You trust the American people, but he's ahead. Well, I believe in the goodness of the American people. And when they see the contrast in terms of the kitchen table, what does this mean to you? This isn't about what it means to blah, blah, blah. What does it mean to you? It means that you have freedom of choice, that you have opportunity.

They're going to get rid of the Department of Education? Well, I mean, this is cruel. This is what we're dealing with. You have no idea. So I want to talk about you and your role. So one of the things we've talked about is how women keep power. I'd love you to give—I have two more things. One is there's a show on Broadway that's coming in Lincoln Center called N Slash A. It's about you and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I don't know anything about it. In any case. I don't. Nobody told me. I don't know.

But it depicts you as a ruthless political operator, just so you know. I don't know why they say ruthless. Well, okay. I would say very strong, strategic, serious. One of the questions at this event is how to maintain integrity while navigating the complexities. And you said it's a rough game out there.

I'd love you to talk very briefly, and then I have one more question from someone special I got to ask a question for you. What do you think the key things of leadership, of your leadership, have been? Not leadership in general, but that you have done well. And what's something you would have improved upon yourself in your long career? Well, the accomplishment I'm proudest of is the Affordable Care Act, because it

tens of millions more people have access to health care, more families do not have to be subjected to not having access because of a pre-existing medical condition, and many other benefits that went with it, including being a woman is no longer a pre-existing medical condition. Women had to pay more than others. So what I would say is that...

It's all about respect and listening and integrity. You have to have honesty in all of this. Honesty in terms of your personal integrity, you know, that you're being honest, but also honesty with how you're listening and how you are communicating

translating other people's concerns into something because it's a big country and everybody is a resource to you. So you don't want to weaken anyone because they are a potential vote for the next bill. Tomorrow is another day. So the kaleidoscope requires respect.

and respect, not questioning people's motivation, but respecting the differences of opinion and who they represent. It's their representative is the job title and the job description, representative. The other thing is I consider myself a weaver at a loom. And here's my caucus, and I want to make sure they all know

that when we're weaving, the tapestry we're putting together is weakened if one person isn't in it. It doesn't mean we all have to agree on everything. We build consensus, not necessarily unanimity, because that might be impossible to do. But it doesn't mean that we don't respect the diversity, whatever it is,

When I say diversity, it could be of opinion, it could be of anything that is there. And the respect, I think, is what people understood we were about. Listening, learning, respecting, and bringing people together. In that vein, every episode I get a question from an outside expert. Today we have a former vice president. I'm going to play it. Hi, Madam Speaker. It's your friend, Madam Julia Louis-Dreyfus here.

I have two questions for you today. In your long and storied career in the politics game, you've served as the most consequential Speaker of the House in the modern era. My first question is this: Of all the people that you've worked with from across the aisle, who did you like the most? And here's my follow-up question: I have had the great honor and privilege of knowing you for a very long time now and working with you on some of the most critical issues of the day.

My question is this.

Of all of my red carpet looks, which one did you like the very, very best? That was the Selina Meyer question. Answer the first one. Well, the second one, I don't want to go to the red carpet. I don't watch as much TV as you might think. Sports. Sports. I'm into sports. But I did love seeing you on Colbert the other day. You were just sensational. It was...

Actually, your husband watched it twice because he just thought it was so great. If you haven't seen that, she's just remarkable, as always. So you talked about not liking to use the word Trump. Of the people you've worked with from across the aisle, who did you like the most? It's kind of a contest without a winner. It's...

I completely disagreed with the Bushes on the war in Iraq, as you can just imagine. But I have a great affection for the Bush family, mother and father, and then George W. Bush and Laura and the rest of that. So I have great affection for them. Actually, it isn't a question of not liking them. It's a question of...

respecting their patriotism for our country. And we always, I mean, I'm a human rights person. That's part of what I came to Congress and fought the Chinese human rights, this human rights, that human rights. And here I have on the hostage. This is for the hostages. The hostages. Thank you.

So those kinds of things are bipartisan. I had many friendships over time working on some of those issues across the aisle. So I don't flatter anybody enough to say I dislike you. I don't even think about you that much. But the ones that I respect and like are...

There are just many. There's many. I wouldn't want to name one over the other, but the most prominent name in Republican politics lately has been the Bush family. I love them personally. I respect their patriotism. I disagree on many things with them, but that's not a question of whether you respect somebody. It's a question of you have one thought, they have another thought. Read my book, you'll see. We'll be back in a minute.

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For decades, we've been talking about productivity all wrong. That's how we ended up with the hustle bros and endless to-do lists and days filled with meetings and meetings about those meetings. It just can't be the answer. So this month on The Verge Cast, in a series brought to you by Amazon Business, we're exploring a different way.

The tools that you can use to get things done without burning out and without spending so much time on menial tasks. Different ways of thinking about what productivity means and how we might measure it. All in service of trying to get a little more done in a better way. All that on The Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.

You've officially stepped down from leadership, and you said you don't want to be the mother-in-law in the kitchen making pointed comments. But you're obviously still in the kitchen making pointed comments. Well, they said to me, come on, be a mother-in-law in the kitchen. See, the thing is, you know, I have five children, ten grandchildren, all that, and you don't want to be saying...

My son likes the stuffing this way. No, I make it this way, okay? Yeah. Thank you. Goodbye. All right, so you don't want to be in the mother-in-law in the kitchen, but obviously you can stand the heat because you're still in the kitchen. So how do you want the rest of your career to go? What is your role if you had to pick one? What is my role? What is your role, the national what? Well, I had no idea that we'd be in the situation we're in now, so just...

It's about, again, the vision of our founders. I'm very patriotic. Okay, let me say it this way. I'm from Baltimore, although 50 years in San Francisco, and the national anthem was written in Baltimore. And you know when you're at the game, you get toward the end, and at the end of the national anthem, but before the end is my role in life. It says, proof through the night that our flag was still there.

Right now, we're in the night that we have to prove that our flag is still there as we pledge every day with liberty and justice for all. So whatever the challenge is, and maybe there won't be any, well, we have to win the election. But in terms of other things that may come forward globally, you never know.

in terms of our country, but we must prove through the night that our flag and all that that stands for, the vision, the sacrifice, the aspirations of our founders, our men and women uniform, of our children, with liberty and justice for all. Liberty and justice for all are great at risk. The Supreme Court

Going rogue, I don't know. Just going rogue. I don't think that justice is there with them. And so people have to understand that race for president is a race. We are the first branch of government, the legislative branch. The second branch is the executive. The third branch is the judiciary. The second branch appoints the third branch. So when you see the court saying what they're doing about women's right to choose or the environment or this or that, you...

You have to understand how important the election is. It's not just about a person in the White House and somebody as vice president. It's about liberty and justice for all. And that's what my proof, just proving to the night. Who are you then in that scenario? I'm me, whatever it is. I mean, I'm ready. I'm ready. I know everything.

I'm not looking for anything more to do. I wrote this book because some of it is stuff that is old about my work on China, my work on TARP, my work on the Iraq War, which I vehemently oppose. And so it was, oh, but I had a chance to write it, and I didn't have a chance to write it when I was a speaker. But...

Again, because it had to be written, had to write about January 6th, an assault on our Constitution, a day that the Constitution says we have to certify the election of the president and the vice president, an assault on the Capitol, the beautiful Capitol and the symbol that it is to the world, and an assault on the Congress of the United States.

So you never know what the challenge is. All right, let me try it one more way. What will they say in 100 years about Nancy Pelosi? They won't even know. I don't even care. No, I think that some of the things— I think they'll know. No, they'll know. Well, I would want them to know that I believe that when women succeed, America succeeds, and encourage women to do it.

I said when they asked me if you ruled the world, what one thing would you do? The education of women and girls. This is so important. And it's a threshold that we must cross in terms of having half the people in the world be representative in the decision-making in the world. Speaking of that, do you think Kamala Harris has a good, excellent chance of winning and becoming the president of the United States?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And the thing is, is that, as I said at the very beginning, you want to win an election, you make decisions. The decision to win. And one of the most important decisions, now I say this from my perspective as a grassroots organizer, as chair of the California Democratic Party and all that, you must get out your vote. You hear what they say? Get out your vote.

Of course, you must persuade, but we know the enthusiasm is there. Get out your vote. Own the ground. Just own the ground. We fully intend to own the ground. And you see a reinvigoration. My members, my colleagues tell me that in their districts, and I know in my own, but we never have a problem of enthusiasm in San Francisco, that volunteers that are signing up in the

small donor contributions that are coming in. So it's, we think we have a tremendous opportunity to make the distinction, to show the two different visions, to mobilize at the grassroots level with a message that captures that difference, but very positive about what Kamala Harris has to offer as president of the United States and the Democratic Party, because it's our, our

platform, and again, have the resources mostly at the grassroots level. So we have made a decision to win. We're making every decision in favor of winning. And some of that is to say a person like me may have to curb my enthusiasm about certain things because they may not be in furtherance of winning the election. So essentially you're saying do what it takes. You're essentially saying do what it takes. In a values-based way.

honoring the integrity, the integrity of our country so that people feel that they are real, that this is a democracy and their vote counts and that their vote is as important as any big money thing

donor and the rest of that. So in any case, it's going to be an exciting time. It's important to challenge. It's important to question. That's why when people say the Democrats are chaotic, no, we listen, we learn, we go at a pace. And respectful of the media, but they were, quite frankly, very

quoting me saying things that I never said. And I was like, I never said that. And if I thought it, I wouldn't tell you.

So in any event, be ready for success. Be out there. And again, young people, the future belongs to them. And you all seem ready to take responsibility for it. And that's a good thing. It's a great country. I just love America. I think it's great. I love Joe Biden. I think he's great. And I think that he did a great thing for our country to say our progress will continue when we pass the torch.

And Kamala Harris will be the next president of the United States. Okay. All right. Do we have time for two questions? Is that right? Do we have time? All right. Well, we have to hear one of them from a woman. That's correct. At least. Nancy, I'm way ahead of you. I'm way ahead of you on that one. What have you picked, Nancy? No, no. That's a level of politics I would not get involved in. Okay. All right. Let's find a woman. Question from right here. Hello. Hello.

Madam Speaker, thank you so much. My name is Sarah Locke. I'm an MPM student here. It's very easy for people outside of the democratic process to criticize what goes on inside. But I wanted to know your perspective from your experience about the two-party system and how you lead and navigate in the two-party system moving forward to try and bring more bipartisan cooperation.

Well, I appreciate your question. When I came to Congress, one of the great things was to be competitive in the arena of ideas.

to come with what you believed in, recognize that you have to govern from the center to the extent that you can. Sometimes it's a fight that you just must win, but other times it is a compromise that you must make. But in recent times now, that has very much changed. They're just an attitude that they did not want the president to have

any successes, all the things we did in the rescue package, all the things we did in the IRA without one Republican vote, without one Republican vote. So that suggests two parties are a problem then. Should there be more? No, I was—

Well, there can be more if people organize and mobilize. But I'm not—I'm a staunch Democrat. I believe in the Democratic Party because it believes in the grassroots people and the function of working families in our country. It doesn't matter what people say about us. It's what we do, and we have to make sure people understand that.

If there's another... It's a democracy. People come forward. It is...

Our party is very diverse. We have a full range of enthusiasms within the Democratic Party. So in other countries, we might be five parties. But in the United States, we're one Democratic Party. The Republican Party has—I always say the Republicans take back your party. You're the grand old party of accomplished good things for our country.

They were champions on women's rights to choose, on environmental protection, all the rest. Abraham Lincoln created the Republican Party, but then they've now morphed into a cult, to a thug. I mean, let me just be very honest with you. They've really turned into a cult right now. And you can't even imagine the votes that we have on the floor because it is like, where do the Republicans go? And even some of them come over to me and say,

You can't even imagine how it is. You can't even imagine how it is. So, again, it's about the people, what the people want. Do you imagine them changing from a cult of Trump, which is what you're referring to? See, the thing is that—and I think this is really important to note—

There has been a difference of opinion in our country since its origin. The difference between the two parties in terms of the role of government, the federal government versus the local government, has been the legitimate debate in our country. There's a spectrum. Where are you on the spectrum in terms of liberal to conservative in terms of certain ideas?

And that's beautiful. That's a wonderful thing. And you get engaged in the debate. You know your purpose. You know your...

you know your strategy, and you hoped for the high split in your direction in terms of the negotiation. But that doesn't really exist now anymore. I mean, we're going to abolish the Department of Education, Head Start. I mean, it's a completely different situation now. So my hope would be that they would

take back their party and all the diversity that they had in their party, not as much as we have, but a range of opinion about things. And some of the best environmentalists and human rights activists and all the rest that I've worked with over the years I've been there have been on the Republican side. All right. This right here, this man right here.

Thank you so much, Speaker Pelosi. My name is Greg Scott. I'm a state representative, freshman legislator out of Pennsylvania. One of the first votes I had to cast was for Joanna McClinton to be the first female Speaker of the House in Pennsylvania. She also happens to be an African-American woman. Thank you.

We've got a 101 to 102 one-seat Democratic majority in the statehouse in Pennsylvania, and Governor Josh Shapiro is presiding as our governor over this divided legislator, the only legislature in the country that has a divided legislature. My question to you is, obviously, I've seen your work up here, and I worked for Joe Sestak, Jacques Patel, among other members, seeing how you really whipped the votes. And from a historical perspective, where did you see the...

from the Congress of yesterday, where it was win, I win, you win politics, to where I win, you lose politics. Was it Jim Wright, Neal? You know, tell me, when do you see that evolution? When do you pinpoint that starting? What was the impetus? When did you start to see that tide changing? Newt Gingrich. It was Newt Gingrich in the 90s. Big, big, big money came in in 1994. For a long time,

big corporate, not corporate, foundation money of wealthy American families

who were going to save America's free market economy because hippies were going to change all of that. I mean, this is, I'm just, you read their memos. This is what this is. So they poured tons of money into that election. And we lost the election. We lost 94. But then it became...

Take this home and listen to this. And when you talk about the Democrats, you talk about them as traitors, treasonous, and this. He's completely changed the whole thing. Now, it didn't have—many of the people had been there, so we still had some good rapport with them. They went after Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, in a very negative, negative way.

Newt Gingrich was impeaching him for personal indiscretion while he was engaged in personal indiscretions himself. But, you know, who cares? Except that that's when you ask, when did it change? Then

then that intensified with the Tea Party and the rest of that. But it really began under Newt Gingrich. My very last question is, when you stepped down from leadership, you said, quote, "Every day I'm in awe of the majestic miracle that is American democracy." Mm-hmm. If Donald Trump wins, which is possible, it's a very tight race, as you said, one vote, will you still feel that way? Well, we all have a responsibility

to honor our pledge to the flag, liberty and justice to all, and the oath we take as public officials to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. So you just can't walk away and say, you know, some of us can walk away, but the force of it can't walk away to say, I guess that's it. It's all down the drain. This court is going to rule against us on the environment, on women's right to choose, on workers' rights,

immunity for the president of the United States, that he is above the law. This is the Supreme Court of the United States. It's supposed to be a model to the world. Instead, it's a MAGA, I don't know what, rogue court. So you always have to try to bring it back. But I can't even think in terms of that.

I mean, we're going to win. That's where we go from here to there. And let's make sure that as we do so, people understand it's about them. That's what a democracy is. It's about the people. So those of you who are in elected office, you're close to the people. You bring a lot to us. So I said representative is a job title and a job description.

What are your people thinking? And that's what has to be listened to. But also people have to know. Lincoln, I'll close with Lincoln, Republican president, quoting a Republican president, Abraham Lincoln, he said, "Public sentiment is everything. With it, you can accomplish almost anything. Without it, practically nothing." Without nothing. Lincoln was iconic and great and wonderful.

He's also a shrewd politician. People don't think of him that way. Shrewd politician. And imagine abolishing slavery. An executive order. The Emancipation Proclamation. No, that was an executive order. Lincoln saved the Union.

saved the union, and I do believe that Joe Biden has done an historic service to our country in his presidency in so many ways, including the selflessness of passing the torch. Thank you all so much. All right, everybody, she's still here. Thank you.

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Kateri Yochum, Megan Burney, Jolie Myers, and Gabriela Bielo. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Kate Furby, and Kaylin Lynch. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda. And our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, go be the most consequential Kara Swisher listener of all time. If not, you're probably the mother-in-law in the kitchen making pointed comments. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

For decades, we've been talking about productivity all wrong. That's how we ended up with the hustle bros and endless to-do lists and days filled with meetings and meetings about those meetings. It just can't be the answer. So this month on The Verge Cast, in a series brought to you by Amazon Business, we're exploring a different way.

The tools that you can use to get things done without burning out and without spending so much time on menial tasks. Different ways of thinking about what productivity means and how we might measure it. All in service of trying to get a little more done in a better way. All that on The Verge Cast, wherever you get podcasts.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.