How Gov. Gretchen Whitmer is Leading During “A Really Heavy Time”
50:39 Share

Support for this show comes from Into the Mix, a Ben and Jerry's podcast about joy and justice produced by Vox Creative. Inez Bordeaux is a self-described hellraiser, and she became an activist after being caught up in the criminal legal system. When she couldn't afford her bond and without a trial, Inez was sent to the St. Louis detention facility known as the Workhouse.

It's on!

Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, who is just out with a memoir this week called True Gretch, What I Learned About Life, Leadership and Everything in Between. I actually wrote a blurb for this book, full disclosure, something I don't usually do. I don't even like blurbs. Let me read it for you.

This wonderful and, yes, exquisitely wacky How to Be a Shark Motherfucker Guide by That Woman from Michigan is a must-read for badass ladies everywhere and for everyone who aspires to be one. I laughed, I cried, and now, God help me, I am a happy half-wit.

If you didn't already know, Governor Whitmer is a woman of many nicknames. Some of them are actually unkind. Nonetheless, she turned the monikers invented by political opponents into merch and laughed all the way to the ballot box. The one from her supporters like Big Retch from Detroit rapper G-Mac Cash.

She just adds to her playlist. Whitmer is now serving her second term and her last one as Michigan governor. In 2022, she helped Democrats win a trifecta in the swing state and has been touted for a while as a presidential hopeful for 2028.

in the wake of Biden's disastrous performance at the debate. Recently, there's also been increasing calls to draft Gretsch to replace Biden on this year's ticket, a chatter she's pushed back hard against. Our expert question this week comes from New York Times columnist and former On guest Nicholas Kristof, who is also a fan, has been one of the voices calling for her to run now.

I'm looking forward to hearing Whitmer's thoughts on the Biden campaign, which she has been very supportive of, and how she's preparing to tackle the biggest challenges Michigan and the U.S. are facing, the threat to democracy. So let's get started with our interview from that woman from Michigan. It's on.

Governor Whitmer, thanks for being on On and congratulations on your new book. Thank you, Cara. I'm glad to be with you and I appreciate you doing a blurb on the book. Oh, it's no problem. Gavin Newsom was jealous, but he'll have to get over it. He'll have to live with his tall height and handsome ways and hopefully he'll recover. Poor guy. Poor guy. So I last saw you in the bathroom at Aspen Airport. Before that, I saw you in the bathroom at Denver Airport and I think that's weird. I think that was weird.

It is, but you know what? Now I have something to look forward to anytime I'm in an airport bathroom. Exactly. It's that women have to wait in line for the bathroom. That's the whole thing. Anyway, we were actually in Aspen at the Ideas Festival, and you were being interviewed by Katie Couric about your new book, True Gretch. The title of your interview was Battleground General, obviously a reference to Michigan as a battleground state, but you faced many battles and also dangerous enemies, including people literally plotting to kill you. We'll get to that.

But in your book, you talk about how you write it's Shark Week motherfucker at the top of your debate preps to get your happy war game face on. I need you to explain Shark Week motherfucker for people because there's many sayings in this book. Happy to. Like being a halfwit and things like that. There are. So, yes. I was...

preparing for my first round of debates when I was first running for governor. And Emily's List sent a debate coach into Lansing, Michigan to help get me ready. And I always love to learn. You know, I mean, I'm a communications, you know, that was my major in college. I'm a lawyer, et cetera, but I'm always trying to refine. And so I'm like, all right, listen to this guy.

Well, of course, it was a dude, which was kind of ironic that Emily's List sent a female candidate a man. But regardless, he gave me a lot of great tips. But one of the things he said was, the happy warrior wins every debate.

kind of interesting thought as we think about the most recent debate, right? Yeah. The happy warrior wins. And so what you should do is go in and put a big smiley face at the top of your notes right before the debate. And like every woman who's ever been told to smile, you tell me to smile, it has the opposite effect. It pisses me off. So I'm like, there's no way in hell I'm doing that. But I had just gone to a Kevin Hart concert, a comedy show,

And a guy who opened for him talked about how women today are so much more bold and we're more secure. And back in the day when you'd talk to a woman and want to come visit her while she was menstruating, she'd make up some lame excuse, my aunt's in town or whatever. And he said, today when you ask a woman, can I come over and see you, get together? She'll say, you're not coming over because it's shark week, motherfucker. And I thought

That was one of the funniest things I've ever heard. And so that made me feel like the happy warrior. So I wrote Shark Week motherfucker at the top of my debate notes. Okay, so we've already gotten to menstruating and cursing and ignoring men who tell us to smile. Excellent. All right, we're well through this interview already. But do you see yourself as a happy warrior?

happy warrior? Because you are kind of a jolly soul in a lot of ways. I've never caught you not smiling. I don't know you that well, but you don't strike me as someone who is anything but a happy warrior. Or are you a battleground general? Talk about how you see yourself. I try to be both. I try to be tough like Michiganders are. We got grit and it's a very Midwestern thing to try to also be kind to people. And so it is kind of two sides of the same coin. I want to make sure that

I don't get distracted by baloney and that I am actually doing something that makes people's lives better. And I love people. That's why I do this work. I'm as comfortable in a black church as I am a bowling alley and more comfortable in both those places than a black tie dinner. And so

I get energy from people, and that keeps me optimistic about where we are and where we're going. But right now, you're a battleground general, presumably, at this moment. And how do you look at that role right now as sort of the most popular politician in Michigan right now, I would suspect?

And this is a battleground state going into presidential election. We're going to talk about that for the first part, and then we're going to get to the particulars of your book because people are very interested in you, yourself. But how you think about these things is important. So how do you look at yourself right now? What is your role in the upcoming election? You are not standing for election for people who don't know that. Correct. Right. Correct. Correct.

Yeah, so, you know, I just got reelected a year and a half ago, won by almost 11 points when a lot of folks were writing my political obituary months out before the election.

And I'm proud of that. I'm proud of what we've been able to get done. I'm also very sober about the fact that Michigan is a microcosm of the country. That's why elections often come down to a handful of states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and a couple others. And Michiganders are, we tend to split our ticket. Sometimes we'll have a Democrat for a long time and then a Republican, like we'll swing. And so it is a state that you can never take your eye off of and you can never take for granted.

I'm very comfortable as governing in the agenda that I've set forth, but we got an important presidential election coming up. We got to show up in all 83 counties. No person should ever be written off. We can learn from asking questions and showing up. And that's, I think, the role that I take very seriously going into this election. I'm also a co-chair on the Biden-Harris campaign. And knowing that my state is maybe going to be one of the toughest battleground states is...

something that keeps me focused on the work that we got to do in Michigan. So you are also one of their top surrogates. And there's a lot of questions being raised why it is so tough right now, given the economy is in relatively good shape. There's all kinds of things passed. There's all kinds of legislation. But since this Biden-Trump debate, many people, top Democrats, important political pundits, New York Times opinions columnists, big donors,

A lot of people I talk to, regular people, have concerns and have been calling. Some have been calling for Biden to drop out. Other are just expressing concerns, being sort of slapped down pretty hard by some Democrats, but for even mentioning it. And obviously your name's being floated as a replacement. I know you've answered that question and disavowed the draft Gretsch movement. But walk us through this. He did not have Shark Week motherfucker on the top of his debate prep, is my point.

presumption, nor did he have a smiley face. Yeah, yeah. I concur with that. And, you know, I know that this is a lot of people in our country, while we've got historic low unemployment and, you know, a lot of great things happening in the economy, a lot of people are struggling. And it's important to not lose sight of that. It's important to remember that

Why we do this work? To help people get ahead, to help people ensure that the next generation has got good jobs and opportunities and clean air and a democracy and the ability to make their own decisions about their bodies, right? And, you know, it feels like a very high stress moment for people all across the country.

And one of the pieces of advice that I shared with the campaign was, you know, folks in the grocery store in Michigan, that's who I'm always thinking about. What are they thinking about? They're thinking about that eggs are pretty expensive right now. And so we got to tell them we see that, we understand it, and here's what we've done to bring down your cost of insulin or to ensure you've got a good paying job as we're onshoring supply chains and shoring up the auto industry in a state like Michigan. That's a big deal and so many jobs depend on that.

So I really think that it's important, yes, to be the happy warrior, but to stay focused on how do we help people and not lose sight of all these other, I think, distractions out there. Sure. But it's not a distraction slightly. Everyone's sort of saying, don't look at what you just saw, right? And I find it increasingly offensive, actually, in a state, for example, that I was very much saying, oh, ignore the age thing, but you can't ignore it. So I'd love

to get your argument. I know you've been supportive of him. You said, you told AP, which poses a hypothetical, if Biden did step down, that you would not run. It was more than a distraction, more than anything. You've said that several times. All of the possible candidates are saying almost the same thing. But explain to me how

how people should feel after seeing that? Because it is honestly no one's fault but Biden's in many ways, although he wants to blame the elites, he wants people want to blame the media, et cetera. Yeah, I hear what you're saying and I don't dismiss any of those concerns. I think that people...

saw a very troubling moment on that debate stage and have legitimate questions, and the president has to answer them. I think that's what he's doing by showing up in a way that is a very aggressive calendar. He's doing rallies. He's doing NATO meetings. He's doing protests.

press events and avails, and I think that's important. They went silent for a little while after the debate. I think part of the thing I write about in the book is you run toward the fire. You don't run away from it. You don't watch it burn. And so I think they're starting to run toward the fire. That's a good thing that he's getting out there more so that he can show people what he's capable of. I've seen it, but I can't be the only person that vouches for it. Everyone's got to be able to see it with their own eyes and get comfortable with that. And I think that he will prove that.

How do you yourself assuage people when they bring up those concerns to you? Well, I talk about, listen, we've got, we really do have a choice between two candidates. You're either voting an affirmative vote for Joe Biden or anything else ends up likely putting Trump back in the White House. Trump in the White House would be a disaster for our economy, our personal rights, the foundations of our democracy, right? And so showing what Biden has done, he's got receipts. You

The things that he's been able to accomplish, we have a manufacturing growth in this country. That's important for good paying jobs. It's also important for our homeland security. And so I think that showing the records and showing what really our choices are, because you can vote for a third party candidate, but that's really a vote for Donald Trump. And that's why I think it's important that we are talking about, yes, the receipts, but also what the vision is for the next four years.

When you guys met with him last week, you were part of a group of Democratic governors who had a crisis meeting with the president. There's an astonishing array of fantastic governors across Democratic governors across this country where he said he was going to run and mentioned that he needed to sleep more. And he also made jokes. I heard mixed reaction to that meeting. I want to hear your reaction to that meeting.

Well, you know, I went because I knew if I didn't go, it would be a story. I went because I do support President Biden, and I wanted to see him firsthand after that debate performance. I went and I listened to my colleagues. I didn't do much talking. I think that, you know, I wanted to hear what my colleagues had to say. But everyone seemed, at the end of it, really their concerns assuaged and came out in support. But, you know,

We are all governors. We all are dealing with certain anxieties of the people of our individual states. And I think we feel it too as individuals. And that's why that line of communication is really more important than ever because governors know what's going on in the ground in our states. And smart people listen to the governors. You didn't feel any pressure to get on board, correct? No, I was on board. I was on board. I showed up because I'm on board because I didn't want anyone to read anything into my absence that

Did you take issue with governors that aren't? Maura Healey was very much in the middle, very mixed, her statement. How do you deal with statements like that or just say, look, people have different opinions?

Yeah, people have different opinions. People have different concerns. I love Maura Healy. I got a great deal of respect for her. She's one of my absolute favorite colleagues. We've had a lot of conversations about where we're headed, what we want to get accomplished. And you're right. We do have a deep bench of great Democratic talent in the governors and in other office holders across the country right now. And it is important that people feel heard and have the ability to give their best advice to the administration because they need it. Okay, I have just a few more questions here.

Last night, Jon Stewart on his show talked about the predicament on The Daily Show, and he said this about Democratic messaging. And then I want to get into your book a little bit. OK, we're going to play it. Go ahead. Get on board or shut the fuck up is not a particularly compelling pro-democracy bumper sticker, nor is what are you going to do? So

So how do you look at this? What is the messaging going forward? Look, we are where we are. He said he's staying. How do you get those people back who have questions? What is the messaging now? You talk a lot about messaging in your book and how you overcame a bunch of things. What do you think the best way to do that is? Well, first, I don't disagree with what John said.

Stewart said, right? I mean, that's not a compelling argument to get people excited and to get out and vote. We have to earn their vote. We've got to stay focused on the dinner table issues. I know that there's a lot of conversation about what's happening in a number of countries around the globe right now. But what we have to focus on, I think, is what's happening in households across America right now, what's happening in states where women can't

access birth control, much less abortion care when they want it and need it.

What is happening in terms of people getting skills and getting to better paying jobs or needing affordable housing? These are all things that President Biden has been able to move the needle on. And people are stressed and understandably, they're not consuming media the way that you and I do and probably a lot of your listeners do. We got to make sure to be telling those stories. And I think those fundamentals are what Americans want, need and deserve from their president.

Let's talk about money, because on your Twitter page or your X page, you're directing followers to donate to your PAC. The fight. Is it called the fight like hell? Yes. Talk about where you're putting your money. Is there a reason you were bringing it there and where are you putting it and where should it be directed? I recently interviewed someone who was talking about down ballot races, you know, not the presidential race. How do you look at that?

your fundraising and where it goes? Well, in the last election, in 22, when I was up for re-election, we did not have a U.S. Senate race. And so we didn't have all the resources we needed to run different parts of an operation. There are certain things you can use federal dollars for, certain things you can use state dollars for. And I said,

I'm never getting into this mess again. We've got an important election. It's going to come down to Michigan and a couple of other states. So I started this PAC to make sure that we had the resources to get out the vote, to show up in all 83 counties, to get people registered to vote, to support House members, the Michigan State House. We flipped it for the first time in

In many years, in 40 years, it's the first time we have a trifecta in Michigan. We've set a great agenda. We've got to keep it rolling. So helping make sure that we hold the House, ensuring that Alyssa Slotkin, who I think is going to be our Democratic nominee for U.S. Senate, that we're competitive and ready to go in that race as well as the presidential.

supporting candidates who are pro-choice and who are going to fight like hell for our democracy. That's what this is all about. And that's why I said, let's add a tool to our chest because we got a lot of work to do.

So you reportedly headed to some Valley conference this week. The invite list is of a who's who's a business media, big tech among them, democratic donors. Some of them are turning away from Biden, but how do you, what would be your message to them if they want to continue to support Democrats? Well, I always start by listening, Carrie, you know, whether it's about reproductive rights or it's talking to farmers in middle of Michigan, which I talk about in the book, you know, I want to listen. I want to understand what the concerns are. The,

The conversation about, oh, can we just clear the board and pick a couple people and run them, that's not going to solve the problem that people are confronting. So help me understand the problem so that I can help figure out what we do to address it. And I think that that's going to be the most important thing that I can do so that I can advise the campaign and I can earn the support and confidence of people who are wavering. And you right now are confident that Joe Biden will be the nominee. Yes. Yes.

You are, because. Well, yeah. Make your best case right now, and then we'll get to your book. Joe Biden's going to be the nominee, unless Joe Biden decides he's not going to be the nominee. He's gotten the nomination. We're going to be going into convention soon, and it will be official in less than four weeks. But, I mean, he's earned the votes. He's gotten the votes, and he's beaten Donald Trump in the past. I think he's got a great list of accomplishments that are going to be compelling to the voters, but we've got a lot of work to do.

And what do you do when someone like your daughters, who are lovely, by the way, and you write about them and all your family wonderfully, and they say, Mom, I don't know. I don't know. What is your best argument to them worried about losing? You know, I'm going to focus on, you know, the fundamentals, fundamental rights. I'm going to focus on climate change.

and focus on affordable housing. We have a president who has delivered on all of these or is on the right side of these issues, whether it's gun safety. I mean, our kids' generation, I know you've got some kids that are roughly the same ages. These are top of mind for them as well. The economy is top of mind. And guess what? There's a lot of good stuff happening in this economy that

We want to make sure that they understand too. I'm not taking my own kids for granted. I know that they're going to end up probably in the right place at the end of the day, but I'm having those conversations just like I hope every person who sees the high stakes of this election is doing as well. We cannot make any assumptions. Michigan had the highest youth voter turnout in the country in 2022. We had reproductive rights on the ballot. We had a dynamic group of leaders on the ballot.

We can't make any assumption that people still understand what's at stake here, and that's why we got to have these conversations at all levels and all households. And how do you assuage their feelings that Donald Trump is winning at this point almost everywhere across the country? We've always known this is going to be a competitive election.

In Michigan, races are always going to be close. I tell friends, listen, don't clutch your pearls when we're down two points and do not celebrate when we're up two points. This is going to be close all the way to this election. But we can win this if we stay focused and we do the work and we roll up our sleeves and stop wringing our hands. We'll be back in a minute. Support for the show comes from Into the Mix, a Ben and Jerry's podcast about joy and justice produced by Vox Creative.

In season three of this award-winning podcast, Into the Mix is covering stories on the ordinary people fighting for justice in their local communities, starting with a fight against the workhouse, a penitentiary in St. Louis known for its abject conditions, mold and pest infestations, and its embrace of the cash bail system. Host Ashley C. Ford interviews Inez Bordeaux, who spent a month in the workhouse, and the workhouse

when she couldn't afford her $25,000 bail. Experiencing what I experienced and watching other women go through it and know that there were thousands before us and there were thousands after us who had experienced those same things, that's where I was radicalized.

Eventually, her charge was vacated, but her experience changed her. And as we're starting a campaign to close the workhouse, are you interested? And I was like, hell yeah. Hell yeah, I'm interested. You can hear how she and other advocates fought to shut down the workhouse and won on the first episode of this special three-part series, Out Now. Subscribe to Into the Mix, a Ben and Jerry's podcast.

So let's talk about your memoir, True Gretch, what I've learned about life, leadership, and everything between. You appear with a leather jacket on the cover. You know, it was in the works long before all this hubbub. A lot of politicians use a memoir to lay out their agenda, their priorities. Yours was very different. There were recipes, personal stories about you drinking in high school, stories about your many nicknames, some of which are funny. I really enjoyed it. I was sort of surprised by it. Tell us about it.

Tell me why you wrote it the way you wrote it. I mean, I know you wrote it quickly, but it could have been, you know, it wasn't the Obama book. I'll tell you that. Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. You know, I know that Byrne book is a very important piece of work that is very intellectual. This is not. Yeah, okay. Well, it's very relatable. I'll tell you that. Relatable is a word I might use for you. Good. Well, I think, you know, the question I get the most, Cara, is...

whether I'm in Michigan or traveling outside of the state, is how do I stay positive? Why did I want to run for re-election after death threats and recall attempts and floods and pandemics? Why do I want to keep doing this work? And so I wanted to share some lessons that I've learned in my life that I have

deployed over the last six years to stay focused and to stay optimistic. And I think we started by talking about the happy warrior, but lessons like not taking things personally and surrounding yourself with great people to help me get through tough times. And my hope is maybe it'll give someone a laugh or if there's a lesson they can learn from or a little inspiration about why it's important to stay engaged in this moment where there are a lot of reasons why people want to check out.

Is it a meet the candidate for 2028 memoir? Do you look at it that way? No, I look at it as a handbook to put a little light out in the middle of a really heavy time. And that's the goal. And that's why I thought this year's the year to do it because it's damn heavy going into this election. All right. So the book has many heavy parts. You were targeted by Trump during COVID, as we all know. That's when I first heard of you and he called you that woman from Michigan.

his vitriol over your lockdown mandates spilled over. There were armed protests, the Michigan Capitol. While you were inside with a bunch of guns, a group of men started plotting to kidnap and murder you. A number of them are now behind bars. You've said you felt the plot was downplayed in the press. Talk about that experience and why you think that was and what you got out of it. Because anyone else who, you know, had a

Kidnap and murder plot might have a little different attitude towards people. Well, you know, I think that it didn't really dawn on me until we saw the coverage of the man who showed up on Brett Kavanaugh's lawn was covered as an assassination attempt. And, you know, this was one person who showed up with a gun and was apprehended before he really posed a big threat. And I'm glad of it. I'm not suggesting, I'm not making light of it.

But you juxtapose that to 12 to 14 people planning for months, practicing what they called a kill house, planning to blow up bridges and kill police officers and the attempt to kidnap me, put me on a sham trial and then execute me on video. That was their plan. And it was covered as a kidnapping plot as opposed to an assassination attempt.

And so it just struck me that that is so incredibly different. So it's how it was covered, because you received more coverage than Brent Kavanaugh, but you felt like it was covered like crazy people in the woods couldn't get it together. Yeah, they just wanted to kidnap her, which leads you to believe, okay, maybe they wanted a ransom or they were going to keep me. No, they were going to kill me. And so it just struck me as different. I thought it was important to point that out. But at the end of it all, in the book I talk about, I'd really like

to sit down with one of the people. You said that. Yeah, you said that. Yeah. I'd like to ask, you know, what was happening here? Because picking up guns and planning to kill a governor because they, you know, told you to wear masks is not a rational reaction. And so I want to understand what was really going on with these folks.

maybe I can learn something. Maybe there's nothing to learn, but I'd like to try. Have you gone to see them? Have you tried to contact them? I haven't. You know, I got an attorney general, Dana Nessel, who's fantastic. We still have appeals and things that are happening. And so it's premature to do that yet. But when she gives me the go ahead, I'd like to. What would you say to one of the leaders of that? What would be your first question?

Besides, hi, I'm Gretch. Would you like a beer? Yeah, I might bring my dogs. No, you know, I think seeing the humanity in one another, you know, to say, listen, I've

A couple of them actually cooperated with the law enforcement and testified against others, and they're doing some time. And when they get out, maybe sitting down and asking, seeking to understand what was the conversation? What happened? What brought you to this moment? Why did you think this was okay? And sharing a little bit about who I am. I think that really being able to see one another as human beings as opposed to just a figurehead who's telling me how to live my life is

is an important part of the goal, too. So one of the reasons possibly that people think about you a lot negatively and positively is coming off the turbulent years of the early pandemic, you won re-election in 2022 by, as you said, 11-point margin, and you secured this Democratic trifecta with a majority in the House and the Senate. You control the governor's office, the attorney general's office. You control a lot

You control the state, essentially. And immediately you signed the largest spending bill in Michigan history, $82 billion, including $24.3 billion for education, repealed the right to work law, expanded background checks for gun purchases, expand civil rights protections for the LGBTQ community. You repealed a 1931 abortion ban.

Tell me why you did this. Now, some people think that's overreach. You obviously said, I'm going to get Will again's good. Talk about your strategy there. Well, you know what? For 40 years in Michigan, we've had Republican control of at least one, if not two branches of government and both houses of the legislature.

Once the people had the ability to weigh in on non-gerrymandered districts, they chose a Democratic leadership team. And I ran on an agenda, and people expect me to lead on that agenda, and that's exactly what we're doing. You know, I think that when Democrats...

don't use the power that they're given. People lose confidence in the party and say, why am I voting for these guys? They ran on this and didn't do anything. I don't want to ever make that mistake. Gun control. Yes. Gun control. We got some common sense gun control measures done. In a state like Michigan, where that was the third rail usually, we now have background checks and red flag laws and secure storage laws, which is a major step forward.

What do you think is important going forward from your perspective? What is your biggest goal for the rest of your term? Well, we've made some great strides in terms of funding education. I want to make sure that we're actually improving outcomes for our students. We've made it equitable funding. We've put a lot more into kids who are in at-risk situations or special English language learners or special needs students.

We're now feeding 1.4 million Michigan kids breakfast and lunch at school, destigmatizing the free meal at school and helping kids learn, but really measuring and making sure that we are achieving our goals in terms of outcomes for students and ensuring that more people have access.

affordable way to get skills and get into these good jobs that we're landing here, whether it's in autos or any other industry. We got to be nimble, lifelong learners, and that's a big part of the work we want to do, too. What about abortion? Is there anything you further protected in your state? So I'm proud that we amended our Constitution in 22, that we got that 1931 zombie law off the books. We got a number of trap laws off the books as well.

The court just said that the 24-hour waiting rule is not in effect any longer, and so that's another improvement. But I do think that there are other areas where we can make access easier for people, especially in rural communities, and that's more work to do on that front.

So one thing I found interesting in your book is these career achievements seem to take a backseat to lessons learned, many of which are about bipartisanship and a purple state. It's kind of a grab a beer with your opponent philosophy, as I just talked about. Talk about why that's important for you to highlight it. All of it sounds great in theory, but we have a big problem doing that right now, overcoming divisions, embracing pragmatism and getting stuff done. You have a number of funny phrases like fix the damn roads and other folksy phrases. Talk about that.

about getting along better and then using these expressions to do so. You sound a lot like your mom and grandmother in doing that. Well, you know, I do think that we've got to try to find common ground. And right now in this country, man, is it hard. People want to just attack one another personally and win at all costs. And you know who pays the price? It's the people who pay the price.

We see lawmakers who never deliver for people get reelected, and yet people fall behind. And that's why I think it's important that we're talking to each other. Whether it is a beer or bonding over a kid's event or just understanding what's going on in one another's lives helps open up a dialogue. And if you're talking to one another, you get a shot at finding common ground on something.

fixing the damn roads was a phrase that we never poll tested. It just was how people across Michigan were talking about our roads. And it was a conversation with a woman in Detroit at the Detroit Children's Hospital. She was there because her son was in the hospital. I came upon her and I just happened to say, you know, I'm running for governor. And if I'm lucky enough to get elected, what could I do that might make your life better? Now, this is a mom, her kids in the hospital. I

I did not expect her to answer, fix the damn roads. But that's what she said. And I said, all right, I got to understand this. Tell me why that's on your mind. And she explained, you know, she's driving from Flint into Detroit, hit a pothole, it busted the rim on her tire. It sidelined her for a whole day, money out of her, you know, childcare or rent, time from her son, who she didn't get to see in the hospital that day. And so when the fundamentals are falling apart, it's the people on the margins who pay the worst price. And so fix the damn roads was like,

yes, let's make government work for people so that they don't have this kind of a problem and have to spend money and time that they never anticipated doing so. So the book is very hopeful, though, in this very dark time. I would say, you know, this is an extraordinary dark time. How do you get through to people? Because, you know, here we have Trump 2, same ugly rhetoric, same lies, same thing, and it's working.

in a lot of ways. And even in Michigan, it's extraordinarily close. It's neck and neck in the state, according to polls. So talk a little bit about that. How do you maintain that when darkness tends to win in these elections? Well, it's challenging, but I will say, I believe the lesson of 2022 in Michigan was that people are craving leaders who

who are competent at getting the job done, who are fundamentally decent, and make a seat at the table for them. At the end of the day, I think that really describes Joe Biden, too. I do think we've got work to do. I do think people need to be reminded of what he's accomplished and where he wants to take our country. But at the end of the day, the darkness, yes, it motivates and animates some folks, but

But the average person, I think, isn't thinking about all of that. They're thinking about how do I move my family ahead? How do I get ahead as an individual? How do you deal with all the insults when he called you that one from Michigan? Half-wit, you make a joke about that. Talk about how to cope with that and what's been the way you do that?

Well, you know, as a woman growing up in America, I've had my share of bullies at different parts of my life. And one of the things I've learned is you take their weapon and make it your shield. When Donald Trump called me that woman from Michigan, you know, I hated it because I knew I would get more threats. I knew that it would bring more ugliness.

But I also knew that if we owned it, we could turn it into maybe a call to action. And when women started showing up at events with, I stand with that woman from Michigan or I am that woman from Michigan, I realized, yes, the Etsy community capitalized on this, but also that this was support. This was sharing the identity. And then the names that he called didn't bother me at all because I was proud to be a part of that group of people.

Did any of the names bother you? Yeah. You know, when I was younger, I talk about Three's Company was on television when I was a kid. The name Gretchen's kind of unique. And Jack Tripper had a girlfriend named Greedy Gretchen. And the boys in my fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade started calling me that because I was matured a little bit earlier than other females my age. And so I did not particularly care for that. But

When my dad called me Gravity Gretchen after I knocked out my front teeth, that was one that I've embraced as well because, well, it's true. And my dad said it with love and a smile on his face. So let's talk a little bit about politics going forward and how you relate it to the things you're writing about. Every week we get an expert question. And this week, I think you'll like this one, comes from people who've been floating your name as a replacement for Biden. Have a listen. Hi, Governor Whitmer. This is Nick Kristof from The New York Times.

You've seen firsthand in Michigan how the Democratic Party has managed to piss off many working class voters. It started off being the white working class, and increasingly it has been voters of color as well. We Democrats just come across as condescending and finger wagging scolds who look down on people with less education. And frankly, there is something to that, isn't there?

Working class voters have been screwed over by Democrats as well as by Republicans. And more than 100,000 Americans die a year from overdoses. And we still don't have a coherent national policy commensurate with that challenge. So you've managed to be elected statewide twice in an industrial state. What's the secret? How do Democrats fix this?

Do you flinch when you see Democrats in safe districts on the coasts call for abolishing the police or abolishing the immigration service or accusing every Trump voter of being a racist and a bigot, which surely doesn't help? How do we win back those working class voters whom we need to win and actually get things done?

There's a lot to unpack there, Kara. Yeah, yeah, go for it.

I think that whether you are a plumber or an engineer or a police officer or a teacher, you are important. You serve an important role in our economy and our communities and our neighborhoods. And

And so ensuring that people have a path to do what their passion is, is critical. That's why whether it's the skilled trades or making college more affordable or community college degrees more accessible and cheaper for people to afford has always been a part of our ethos. And showing up, you know, I love to be with people. I like to walk into a bowling alley and just chat and say, you know, what's going on? What can I do to make your life better?

And treating people with respect, I do think that that's important. So when I do cringe a little bit, sometimes when I see people write off all

as Republicans, as MAGA Republicans who are not worth talking to. Baloney. You don't win Michigan by almost 11 points without a lot of people crossing over to vote for you. And so I do really believe that you got to treat all people with respect, even the ones who are not happy with you or disagree with you. You owe it to them to try to hear them out. And guess what? When you do that, you might actually earn their support.

Why do you think Democrats have lost these constituencies? I think the premise of the question is a part of it, right, is that for a long time we've just thought that every person needed to follow the path into college in order to be successful, quote unquote successful.

We've done ourselves a huge disservice in that, in that a lot of people graduate with debt and aren't pursuing something they're actually passionate about and don't have a great job prospect. And we've devalued jobs that can lead you to making $100,000 a year as a plumber because it doesn't involve a college degree. And so this, I think, is one piece of it, that we got into this mindset that everyone should be pursuing one thing.

path, one goal. And it was really foolish. And that's why I think, you know, really seeing people, meeting them where they are, and ensuring that every person's got a path to success, whatever it's defined for them, is the most important thing we can do. Do you think that's why Trump has so much appeal to these groups? He treats them with respect, or at least sounds like he's listening to them? I don't know that he treats them with respect. I think he feeds into frustration and anger with his rhetoric.

And I think that's what resonates, that people say, okay, he feels me. Now, does he have a plan to help you? No. So no, I don't think he respects them. I don't think that he's got a plan to help people. He's feeding off of frustration for his own benefit. Do you think he does one thing well? I'm going to challenge you to say something he does well. He reads the public sentiment well and taps into it. I do think that.

He feeds off of it and he feeds into it. And he does that really, really well. We'll be back in a minute. Support for the show comes from Into the Mix, a Ben and Jerry's podcast about joy and justice produced by Vox Creative.

In season three of this award-winning podcast, Into the Mix is covering stories on the ordinary people fighting for justice in their local communities, starting with a fight against the workhouse, a penitentiary in St. Louis known for its abject conditions, mold and pest infestations, and its embrace of the cash bail system. Host Ashley C. Ford interviews Inez Bordeaux, who spent a month in the workhouse, and the workhouse

when she couldn't afford her $25,000 bail. Experiencing what I experienced and watching other women go through it and know that there were thousands before us and there were thousands after us who had experienced those same things, that's where I was radicalized.

Eventually, her charge was vacated, but her experience changed her. And as we're starting a campaign to close the workhouse, are you interested? And I was like, hell yeah. Hell yeah, I'm interested. You can hear how she and other advocates fought to shut down the workhouse and won on the first episode of this special three-part series, Out Now. Subscribe to Into the Mix, a Ben and Jerry's podcast.

So when you think about working class in Michigan, you think of the automotive industry. It contributes 1.1 million jobs, nearly 20% of the state's workforce, and $304 billion to Michigan's economy every year. Both you and the Biden administration have been big proponents of the shift to EV. Research seems to indicate it won't necessarily mean big job losses, but there's a lot of fear and people are still slowly moving to EVs. How are you talking about electric vehicles right now?

Well, you know, I talk a lot with the people that are making them, the people that run the companies that are huge employers in Michigan. I know that there is a transition that's happening. We look at what's going on globally. We were behind. We're working hard to catch up.

But it also is going to take earning the support of Americans, making it affordable, but also addressing their range anxiety by building out the infrastructure. There are a lot of pieces to this.

And so while we were moving really quickly, there's been a little bit of a slowdown. That's okay. But we can't reverse course. We've got to recognize EVs have got to start growing, and we've got to be producing them right here. If we don't, we're going to get left behind. Absolutely. The Chips and Science Act is one of Biden's policy achievements you often tout in the state. Is the investment into technology translating into Michigan jobs or economic output in a meaningful way yet compared to places like California or Texas? Yeah, it is. You know, Michigan...

I think we always thought that the hardware would be in Michigan, the software would be on the West Coast. We're doing a lot of it in Michigan. We've got the highest number of engineers per capita in the country, or in the state of Michigan. A lot of companies are building new headquarters in Michigan because our cost of living is lower, the caliber of our institutions is very high, the quality of life is high as well, and we are home to 21% of the world's fresh surface water.

all huge assets. And guess what? Michiganders are not afraid to work hard and take pride in the work that we do. So we've got a great story to tell, and we're seeing a lot of investment happening, both in the IT side and on the hard side in Michigan.

So one of the things you mentioned with voters of color, the poll taken before the debate showed support for Biden among black voters in Michigan down 22 percentage points from 2020. That's huge. How do you address that, given you are his general in that state? Yeah. Well, you know, I was really grateful that I've had such great support in the community. I don't take anyone for granted, and that's why it's going to be crucial that we're really organized today.

People are tired. People are exhausted. I get a lot of counsel from my lieutenant governor and the diverse cabinet that I surround myself with. I think it helps us stay focused on what matters to people, people that have not often been listened to or part of the conversation. But I also know that there's, I think, a lot of work that needs to be done in the black community on behalf of the Biden campaign. And my lieutenant governor and I will be front and center in all of that.

Biden's margin of vigor in Michigan was 154,000 votes in 2020. One of the groups that helped him cross the finish line were Arab Americans. Again, Michigan is a real reflection of the United States in a lot of ways. It's the highest Arab population in the country. 200,000 Muslims are registered to vote in the state. Obviously, they haven't been happy about Biden's response to the Israel-Hamas war. In the primary, more than 100,000 Michigan Democrats, which also included many younger people, voted uncommitted in protest. That's close to 13% of that vote, enough to pick up two delegates.

How are you addressing that as the chief surrogate? Yeah. It's, you know, I'm trying to stay close to all communities, right? So I know that we've got a beautiful Jewish community in Michigan, a beautiful Arab, Muslim, and Palestinian communities in Michigan who've lived in harmony as neighbors for decades. And right now, the only universal truth is everyone's hurting.

whether it's the loss on October 7th or all the innocent lives lost since then. It is very hard for a lot of people in Michigan who are one, maybe two degrees away from someone who's lost their life or who's struggling to live right now. So I'm grateful that President Biden is working so hard to try to bring some peace to the region, try to get

hostages returned and rebuild Gaza. But with Netanyahu and Hamas who are on the ground making decisions, it is very, very challenging. I think our job is to show up and to show these communities we care about them. We see them. We understand the pain that they're going through and that we're doing our best to bring peace to the region. And at the end of the day, peace

People, I think, will appreciate that a Donald Trump presidency is not going to make things better in the Middle East. It could dramatically make them worse, and I think that's got to be a part of the conversation, too, going into November. Yeah.

So I just have two more questions. One is about reproductive rights and abortion. You've been the leading voice on abortion for over a decade since you revealed you were raped in college, and you talk about it in this book. You've gotten rid of anti-abortion laws, and Michigan voters passed a measure to constitutionally guarantee the right to an abortion.

Is it going to be a critical issue in Michigan, given you've had huge success on abortion rights? If abortion access is guaranteed in Michigan, will it still be a motivating issue to turnout voters? Well, I'm doing my damnedest to make sure it is, because here's what I am a little concerned about. We've had such great success in Michigan that people might think the job is done.

The job is not done. For folks in California, New York, and Michigan alike who now have reproductive freedoms protected, it could all be lost with an upcoming Supreme Court decision or the potential of more Supreme Court justices, an appointment by the next president.

We know that the prospect of a national abortion ban is something Republicans would like to see. Will they have the votes after this election? I hope not. They've taken it off the plank. They just took it off the plank at Donald Trump's behest yesterday. Donald Trump's had 18 different positions on abortion. I don't believe a word the man says anymore when it comes to women's reproductive rights.

I do believe Joe Biden. I know that he would veto that if it ever came to his desk. I know he would put pro-choice jurists on the Supreme Court if he gets an opportunity. And that's why I'm reminding people that this continues to be a high-stakes moment. We don't want the work we've done in Michigan to all go away with a re-election of Donald Trump. So Trump could win, though. And Democrats' message poses an existential threat to the country and American democracy.

If Trump is reelected, what will be your message to people who believed you or believed in you, I think? I think it's we got to keep doing the work.

You know, Kara, in the book, I talk about the 10-year fight that I waged from telling my story about being raped when I was in college to being the governor who signed the repeal of that bill I was fighting against that day. These fights sometimes take longer than they should and sometimes are a lot harder than they should be, but they're worth having and that we will continue the fight regardless.

But all that being said, I really do believe that this is an existential moment in this country, and we've got to win this presidential race. If something happens and we fall short, I'm going to keep fighting just like I always have. All right. My last question. You're a gifted user of social media. You did the Barbie car. You've been using it for this book. Some of it's very corny. It seems to work. If you did run in 2028, and I think you probably will, what would you right now think your slogan would be? Yeah.

I have no idea. That's not a good slogan, Gretchen. I know. I have no idea. Oh, Kara, you're so funny. I have no idea. I'm not thinking about that right now. That's not a slogan. I have no idea. I'm not thinking about that right now, Kara. I don't believe you, Gretchen Whitmer. Sorry to tell you. I have a great deal of respect for you, Kara, but you are wrong on this one. All right. There's no slogan you would have. No slogan. We'll talk some other time about that one.

It's a Barbie world. I don't know. I like it. Wear pink, get shit done. Okay, there you go. All right. I did it for you. You're welcome. After all, those consultants, you don't have to pay anymore. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate you.

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro Rossell, Kateri Yochum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney, and Sheena Ozaki. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Kate Furby, and Kaylin Lynch. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get to go to a bowling alley and have a beer with Gretchen Whitmer. She seems to like to hang out there. If not, it's Shark Week, motherfuckers.

And go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

Support for this show comes from Into the Mix, a Ben and Jerry's podcast about joy and justice produced by Vox Creative. Into the Mix is back for a new season and welcomes you with four new stories that take listeners beyond the headlines and into the lives of ordinary people fighting for justice in their communities. Starting with Inez Bordeaux, an activist and St. Louis native who fought to shut down The Workhouse, a notorious pretrial detention center that she says functioned

Like a debtor's prism. Subscribe to Into the Mix, a Ben and Jerry's podcast to listen to the first episode of this special three-part series out now.