Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!
Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is The Ben Shapiro Show with 100% less LDE. That would be Little Dick Energy, obviously. Just kidding. Not about the Little Dick Energy. I'm Kara Swisher, and this is the first episode of On with Kara Swisher. And I'm Naeem Arraza. I've been producing Kara for years, and now I'm getting a promotion. I'm bumped up to sidekick. I am the goose to your maverick. You know what happens to goose.
He dies. Yes, but for now, talk to me, Bruce, as Maverick likes to say. There you go. Thank you for my moment in the sunlight, Cara. It's just a moment. Before you off me. I'm going to. Go ahead. So, Cara, it's been a while since we last spoke on Mike like this for our old New York Times podcast. Since then, Elon's tried to back out of the Twitter deal that's going to hearings soon. Trump has all but declared he's running in 2024, and the queen has died, which is unrelated to the two items above, but in some way, who could blame her?
Have you enjoyed your time off, your summer vacations, Kara Swisher? I don't vacation, Naima. I ran a major tech conference code. I interviewed 16 people and major people in two days. And then I've been traveling and I've done tons of interviews. I don't...
I don't take vacations. I was there. I was on stage with you in my yellow suit. I love it. By the way, Kara Swisher, you always need everyone to know I'm Kara Swisher and I don't take holidays. I don't take time off. I don't. I don't. I really don't. I have no time between work and the family. I just don't have any time. I think about that a lot. It's kind of sad. Does that mean I should stop texting you so much, Kara? Yeah, that's another thing. That's another thing. Saying 200 texts a day. Do this. Do that.
Let's do that. Well, now we're going to get back to it. Tell the folks what we plan to do today. So we're going to do things a little differently on this podcast because it's a new podcast. It's our chance to change. We're going to start each new episode by talking through the big newsmakers of the week, the people I'm watching, and then we'll get to the heart of the show, a big interview. This week, it's Chris Cuomo, the ousted CNN anchor who's now launching a NewsNation show. And in between, we're going to play a little game. This week, it's our favorite Twitter feud. But let's start by talking about the two newsmakers who you've told me you're watching this week.
who are Google CEO Sundar Pichai, whom I recently interviewed, and the not ousted, much lauded CNN anchor, Christiane Amanpour, who you love. I
I do. Okay. So let's start with Google CEO Sundar Pichai, who you just saw at the Code Conference. You had him on stage. Yep, yep, yep. I think he enjoyed that more than the all-hands meeting that he seemed to have last week. We got news on Friday that there were leaks of this all-hands meeting where Sundar was just under fire from employees who were frustrated with the company's clampdown on perks. They were asking why he's nickeling and diming them by cutting travel budgets and why they're being forced to return to work in person. And
Sundar said, I remember when Google was small and scrappy. We shouldn't always equate fun with money. So, Kara, what do you think is happening here at Google? You've been covering this company for decades. Well, I do remember when they were small and scrappy and they did also like money then. So, just as a correction for Sundar. But, you know, I entered
viewed him, he was sort of signaling this idea because productivity is way down at these companies, at all of them. And, you know, they spend a lot of money. These are high spending companies. If you go there, they have food, they've got dry cleaning, they've got haircuts. It's literally the juvenileization and coddling of these employees they have over the many years. And they're used to it. And when you
go there. I mean, one time my mother shoplifted food from them because she was like, why not? It was the most expensive food and I need snacks for my house and nobody cared. And so I think he was signaling that a lot, that this is a different time and they can't keep doing that. All these companies have enormous budgets for their employees that are just perks. Sundar said-
look, I hope all of you are reading the news externally. The fact that, you know, we're being a little bit more responsible through one of the toughest macroeconomic conditions underway in the past decade. I think that was a little shade to them. He's like, you know, we're in a tough time economically. Now, Google is extremely profitable nonetheless. It's a very large and successful company. And I think employees are saying, you know,
Are you taking a cut? Are you kind of, and they were pushing on him for even having flown out for the meeting. They were saying, why are you here if you're cutting back on travel expenses? And he's like, well, it's business critical. Yeah, and he's also the CEO. I mean, that's the problem. One of the things that they started from the very beginning, I remember being at a lot of these meetings, is the employees could say anything to Larry and Sergey, the original businessmen.
people who are running the founders and Eric Schmidt. And they would like that. They think it was cool. But when it really comes down to it, ultimately a CEO is a CEO and they don't live like that. Again, like I always say, they're like coddled children who've been given sugar their entire lives. And you wonder why they're a little bit
So you think that Larry or Sergey would have handled this meeting differently or Eric Schmidt, the former chairman? They gave as good as they got in these meetings, as I recall. And, you know, the Google snack thing and all the little perks are part of their image from an era that is long since gone. And now it's a company. And these people have to realize that. Every single one of these companies, one company had a slide they tried to get me to go down. It was ridiculous.
And I was, I think I was 40 years old. And they said, slide down the side, everybody does. And I said, I didn't like it when I was eight. And I certainly don't like it when I'm 40. Well, we'll go from this story about coddled tech employees to one about the fight for women's rights and really human rights that's playing out in Iran. Over the last week, protests have erupted across the country over the death of 22-year-old Masa Amini.
She'd been arrested by Morality Police for suspicion of not properly wearing her headscarf, which is mandatory in Iran. She then died in police custody, which they are saying is a heart attack, which is strange for 22, which has just led to these protests and government clampdowns. 30 people have died since, says Amnesty International, at least 30 people.
And as this was ongoing, Iranian President Ibrahim Raisi was in the United States for the UN General Assembly. And he was meant to meet with Christiane Amanpour, but it didn't happen. They asked her at the last minute to wear a headscarf for the interview. She has done that when she is in those countries as a sign of respect. I think she declined. She was in New York and he did not show up. And I, you know, I think she's right. That's exactly the call. They try to change things at the last minute.
they probably wanted to get out of the interview at that moment because what are they going to say? And I think they use the excuse of, you know, imagine what's happening there. If you don't wear it, it probably is a bad sign if he's sitting in front of a woman who was not wearing a headscarf. That would be my guess was their calculation.
Do you think it was a missed opportunity? Because this would have been... I mean, Raisi's been in power for about a year. This is an opportunity to grill the Iranian president in a moment of real accountability. Should she have grilled the hell out of him? Or should she have... No, no, she shouldn't have because she's not there to be their PR agent, right? That's what they wanted. They wanted her in that headscarf so that they could broadcast it back to Iran and to the women of Iran. And this is a woman who's very well regarded across the world of journalists. And I think she shouldn't have. So you're saying it's PR because...
she would be this visual would exist in the world of her wearing a headscarf even though you know it would not be pr if she's asking him tough questions and sure but the tough questions aren't going to get to the iranians and the visuals will they'll use the visuals and her agreeing to put on a headscarf at this moment would have been just disastrous and i thought she made the exact right call i agree by the way i agree she made the right call what do you think it means for young muslim women what's going to happen here yeah well i mean you know i'm a muslim i don't wear a headscarf but um
I, I,
I think it's an interesting thing. The headscarf has become extremely politicized across the Muslim world, and it's gone both ways. And I don't agree with it in either direction. I don't think there should be a mandatory requirement to wear a headscarf like there is in Iran. I also don't like when countries like Turkey has done this in the past or France try to ban the headscarf because for a lot of women in these countries, for their families, it's a ticket for them to go to school, to have a job, and they wouldn't allow it where their head's not covered. So it kind of cuts both ways. Now, these protests...
I've been following, I spoke to a friend in Iran earlier today, just kind of asking for that person's take, because I know this person had participated in the 2009 protests, the peaceful protests. And it was interesting to hear this Iranian speak about it, because
The way she was espousing it was that, look, every generation has had a different protest in Iran. In 2009, it was the older millennials, you know, people who are now 40. You know, they were very peaceful protests at that time, and they kind of muted themselves, and they then kind of left. They emigrated from the country. And then in 2017-18, we've seen these protests come up again with headscarves. And then 2019, a huge, you know, economic protest that came out, bloody November, where the Iranian government clamped down, cut off the Internet, as it has done now.
And she was saying this protest is very different because these are Gen Z and very young millennials. And they are saying, look, this is our country. We're not from a destitute country. We're not going to mute ourselves and emigrate to other places to have economic opportunity. We want it here. And we're going to reclaim this country. And that's why people like Roz Aslan are saying this is revolutionary. I don't know if it is, but it feels different in nature and it's generational. Right.
Well, they certainly have to keep it up. I'll tell you that they have to keep doing it because these people are running hungry, do not have clamped down and people are dying. And so unfortunately, they just got to keep at it. It's a slog. It's going to be a slog. And they've got to keep the excitement and the anger up at the same time. Well, I think it'll be interesting to see also what the U.S. does with it, because obviously Obama made progress with the Iranians. Trump did not. Let's see what Biden does. Mm hmm.
All right, Cara, before we get to the interview, we're going to first play a little game. I've always wanted you to be the Judge Judy of Twitter. I already am, but go ahead. Well, grab your gavel, don your robe, because it is time for you to weigh in on this week's controversy.
This is about Dilbert. Do you like Dilbert, the comic strip character? No, I don't read it. I don't read Doonesbury anymore either, speaking of a more liberal person. I've been a fan of Dilbert for many years for its observation of kind of like workplace absurdity when I started working, but cartoonist Scott Adams has...
has gotten a little bit testy. He took to Twitter this week to report that his syndicated strip was dropped from 77 newspapers and implied it was because his content was too unwoke. It was one newspaper chain, correct? Exactly. That's right. This one company dumped him. So Lee Enterprises, which owns the 77 papers, and the company's been revamping their comic strip offerings. They've dropped several other comic strips. And Paraxios, a source has said that Lee Enterprises plans to cut
400 jobs this year. So what is Scott Adams doing here? He's kind of spinning up what could be an economic decision into this kind of culture war, really. You know, whatever, Scott. Come on. Come on.
I'm sure it's because you're a white man. That's it. Yes. Yes. You're right. All the lesbians and people of color in the back plotting against you in some fashion, calling up Lee Enterprises. I don't even know what that is. Anyway. It's Iowa based. You can find them, Kara, if you need to go visit. Definitely. Yeah, we were there. They love us in Iowa. Let me just say. All right. I brought all my trans friends, too. It's crazy. We have a group when we get together and we target white men. Like, give me a break.
Well, he says the Republicans will be hunted. That's what he said. Yeah, right. All right. Well, we're going to take a little break. We'll be back in a minute. And you're going to interview Chris Cuomo. Are you excited, Cara? Yes, indeed. I very much am. Okay. How am I doing? Am I doing okay? Am I going to keep the seat, Cara? Talk to me, Goose.
On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.
So, Cara, it's time for our interview today with our first guest. Well, my 5,000th guest, at least, of all the interviews I've done. Yes, and it's Chris Cuomo of late of CNN, where he had a very rocky departure, which is to say a firing. And now he's back with a new show on an interesting new network called News Nation. Yeah, I'm so interested to hear you kind of pour into this story because...
For media folks out there, this was one of the most interesting stories of the last year, kind of as we watched the whole CNN of it. Yeah, and everything at CNN that's happening. Obviously, they have a new owner, and now there's a new person who's trying to do the same thing News Nation is trying to do. Yeah, and let me just run through. This is a crazy story of the machinations of
power, trust and betrayal. So it's this close-knit network of extremely powerful people that starts to fall apart like a house of cards or almost like dominoes. It starts with Governor Andrew Cuomo, Chris's brother, who in the early days of the pandemic was a national hero whom people were, quote, Cuomo-sexual for. But by 2020 and 2021, he is steeped in scandals, the governor. The first, which starts to emerge in 2020, is around nursing homes. We learn kind of around that spring that the administration had been downplaying nursing home debts. They had an early policy that
pushed nursing homes to admit or readmit residents that were COVID-19 patients, obviously pretty disastrous. And then by 2021, Governor Andrew Cuomo is mired in sexual harassment allegations, which I think create even a louder splash than the nursing home issue did. And he's forced to resign. And that investigation into Andrew actually drags down Chris's
who he learned was advising his brothers in ways that were journalistically cloudy, to say the least. And as Chris goes down, this launches a CNN investigation into kind of what's going on in the shop. And that takes down Jeff Zucker, who didn't disclose a relationship with his not-so-secret girlfriend, Alison Gullis, who was part of the issue with Gullis was that she was exchanging messages with none other than Governor Cuomo. So it all kind of comes full circle. It's kind of like Andrew Cuomo took them all down.
Well, that's the media story. And that's what media is interested in. I think there's a really interesting discussion around whether it matters. Why are you excited for this conversation? You know, I followed them. You know, I'm going to tell him this, but I hate myself. But I really did enjoy his back and forth with his brother, even though I found it unethical and problematic. But I felt it was like entertainment more than anything. And at the same time, you know, when it was pretty clear that he was working with him and helping him, it really was a line that he crossed. And I do want to talk about that. I'm not...
being judgy at him. I've listened to several, the interview he did recently where he talked about it. I don't agree with him. I think it's an excuse. But we'll see. I think we want to talk about that. I want to talk to how to recover from something like that. He's recovered pretty quickly. Well, I don't know if he's fully recovered. Well, you know. He's trying to recover. I think he's recovered
Yeah, compared to a lot of people, he gets to return rather quickly. So I'm really interested in his podcast that he's doing and News Nation, which is this attempt to be in the middle, in the muddy middle of where things are, which is sort of different because he really did have a point of view on CNN. So now he's sort of espousing, you know,
right in the center, center right, center left. People are tired of this. It's something I agree with, but at the same time, the timing seems interesting. Yeah, definitely want to get to the future. And I think it's interesting because, you know, he said in this, he has this lawsuit playing out with CNN still. He's suing them for $125 million. $15 million of that is for the contract that he wasn't paid out. And the remainder of it is because he said it'd be hard for him to work again after he was so defamed. And he is working again. He's working, you know, in a smaller way. Yeah.
It reminds me a tiny bit of when Katie Couric went to Yahoo. Very interesting move. Didn't quite work out for her. This is slightly different, but we'll see what he has to say about what happened to him and where he's going next. All right, Kara. Enjoy the interview. Thank you. Congratulations on your success. Congratulations on the new gig. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. All right. Are we ready?
Yes, ma'am. Okay, so let's get at it, as you like to say. I've now taken that. Are you bringing that with you to the new gig? Let's get after it. After it. So you can have at. It's a different preposition, so you're good to go. Okay, good. So I was watching one of your YouTube videos for your podcast, which looked great. Gone are sort of the sharply cut suits, the network slick, and you're wearing these t-shirts, and you're selling merch. Let's hear a clip.
The free agent merch, it's there. Buy it. I want to get a lot of money together. I'm thinking like 100 grand. And then we'll start crowdsourcing who we give it out to so we can do some good together. I think it's really cool. Also, I like the idea of this instead of independent. OK, I don't like the word independent because I think in America we need to be interdependent.
Okay, let's start from there. The t-shirts say free agent, and I want you to explain that for people, and also, I can't help but feel you're talking a little bit in code to a different world that you used to be in. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm reading into it. I'd like to know if you're free now, and more importantly, sort of critical of yourself now, going forward. I've always been highly self-critical, and...
probably self-loathing. And I think that there's an aspect of that that I've been trying to address, having been recently given a block of time with not much to do. And we got to keep working on ourselves. And sometimes your insecurities keep you from being confident because that exposes you to disappointment. And it's easier to be negative. I think we see that all over our culture.
negativity is a proxy for insight. Free agent doesn't really refer to me. It refers to you. It refers to the people who are listening, who I'm trying to reach. So a free agent is really about everybody else and it's people...
who don't want to be on a team or a tribe, who have open minds and open hearts and are willing to listen, even if they disagree. So, interestingly, you were right in the dead center of that for a long time. You had the top show, highly paid. You were sort of a chief of that tribe. But...
Let's talk about your decisions, because where you were was an incredibly powerful place. You had the highest rated hour of a major news network. It was run by your buddy, Jeff Zucker. You were doing whatever you wanted, and now you're doing something different. So let's talk about those decisions. I want to go back to 2020, where I think a lot of this started, which was right in the middle of COVID-19.
You had your brother on the show talking about it. And it was, let me just say, I kind of liked the stunt for its obvious entertainment. And I also hated myself for liking it because I thought it was problematic. I'm not going to say unethical. I think it was problematic and uncomfortable.
It was fine when it was fun and games or talking about informational stuff. But when you got to the governor, real news stories like around the nursing home deaths, it became problematic. And you did go to that. Let's talk about why you decided to do that and how you feel about it right now. And I know there's hindsight's 2020 kind of thing. Well, look, the hindsight's 2020 for me is that if I had known that a grudge would be harbored, because if we're giving a fair reckoning to
Not many people spoke up loudly in the media about disapproving of my brother being on during that time. They did so later. And I think in that is something that needs to be owned as well.
The reason that they didn't come out in the moment was because it was very popular and powerful. And I think if you want to speak truth to power and you want to be about somebody who's about something bigger and ethical and capital J journalism, then say it when it's not popular to say it and not easy to say it. Let's put that to the side. Why did I do it? May I interject for a second? Why didn't you say it? Why didn't you say it? I didn't feel it. You didn't feel it. You thought it was fine. No, if I knew...
that it was going to be harbored as a grudge the way it was.
I may have had much more profound concerns early on when I was asked to have my brother on. Sure. Very important phrase. I got that. I understand that. This idea that Chris Cuomo had no boss. Chris Cuomo did as he liked, when he liked, how he liked. These are people who don't know our business. Okay? When Jeff decided to have Andrew on,
I believe it was the right call because the country was desperate, okay, and starved for comfort. And I have never met a regular person, meaning someone who does not get paid to be my competition, who has said, you know, I got to tell you,
I really thought that those were news interviews and that you were not doing your job the way you do it with everybody else. I don't want to disrespect you, but I think you may have been partial to Andrew Cuomo in those interviews. I've never had a regular person say that. What they've said is I really appreciated the connection between brothers who were in different aspects of the same dynamic.
and how you were there for each other, and that's what they took from it. And I'll tell you what, Cara, you know, I'm not a big fan of myself, but I've won a lot of awards in journalism, just about all the ones that they offer on a major level for television journalism. I've never been thanked for any work that I've done the way I was for those interviews. Did I think that they should be considered a conflict of interest?
ab initio inherently all day long but there was complete transparency you knew it was my brother you can say you knew it wasn't a new yeah i get that how can you qualify that because i i do understand that cnn loved it they like you could see that they loved it because they gave it to cnn cara i don't think that's fair i get that i get that but it's still i don't want to like argue a journalistic point here but
Your case against CNN alleges that you had reservations. Did you have reservations about doing this at all, or you just felt it was fine? Well, my brother hadn't been on my show for a reason, which was it's an obvious conflict of interest, and I'm not going to cover his administration. And I even said in the interviews, a time will come when I cannot have him on anymore because there will be questions of accountability that I cannot be believable on because obviously I'm biased.
I said it to the audience and they always got it. I had had my brother on once earlier. 2013. Not in a, hey, this is my brother. Yeah, 2013. He was at the scene of a train accident. Yep. And I had him on just to tell us what had happened in the train accident because nobody was there yet. And it was like six something in the morning. I was doing the morning show, New Day.
and I got shit on for it. And I was like, you know what? I get it. I tried it. I understand why they're saying this. Leave it alone. It's not a nuanced discussion. And maybe it shouldn't be because it's a nice bright line distinction and that's fine. So of course there were reservations to be had, but it was also a unique situation. And, you know, just in terms of like, hey, you know, the nursing home stuff came up and when the nursing home stuff came up in earnest,
I didn't have them on anymore. Right. But you did ask him about them. Let's get to that moment of accountability you talked about. June 2020, nursing homes. Let's let's play that clip. Nursing homes. People died there. They didn't have to. It was mismanaged and the operators have been given immunity. What do you have to say about that?
The several statements that are not correct, but that's OK. You were correct, actually. He goes on to say it's tragic, but not accountability. What would you ask him now if you had to re-ask that question when he pushed back on you? Look, the idea of did I give my brother a pass is an obvious rhetorical question.
That was the real question. Other journalists were asking him questions at the time that were not as pointed as the one I asked him, and I couldn't even fairly cover it, which should tell you something about the nature of media treatment of people in power in general, maybe. I don't think that the nursing home situation has been complete and fair in its appraisal. But that's on my brother, and that's for him to decide whether or not he wants to take it on or his past administration or the current one if it ever comes up again.
That's not my problem per se. But what would I ask him? What difference does it make? Because whatever I would ask him would be found lacking. I could have held up a piece of paper and put Mike Wallace's glasses on and said, doesn't this show that you should be damned for this forever? And people would say I went soft. So that was never what the relationship was supposed to be. It was never presented as that.
And people never understood it as that. All right. All right. I find it to be I found that to be a softball question. And I don't use that lightly. So what would you have phrased it like? No matter what you do, you say it couldn't have been anything but considered a softball. Well, look, I mean, what I would turn the question to is find me somebody who asked him a question during that phase that was more pointed than what I said, because what I said was a summary of the accusations. Well, sure. But that's like saying, OK,
I did a C and everyone else did a D. But I wasn't even in the class. I get it. But bringing him on to talk about it, you kind of have to be prepared. Oh, I didn't bring him on to talk about it. I brought him on because I was asked to have him on and it was going on and I felt, you know, I was going to have to ask about it. But again, that was a little bit of an impossible situation, which an ethicist could very easily say, yeah, that's why you shouldn't have had him on. And my response to that criticism is that was never my plan.
to have him on. And when I did have him on, it was not about news and covering a governor of a state. That's all I'm saying. And I don't think that it's an easy case to make against me that I don't know how to test people in power. So I know how to ask the questions. I'm no Kara Swisher, but I know how to ask the questions.
but nobody was expecting me to ask them of my brother. That's my point. I get that. I get that from the get go. It's a problematic thing, no matter how you slice it. But there are more problems. So in late 2021 and early 22, your brother faces allegations of sexual harassment. You noted correctly you weren't covering and you weren't, but you were advising him, joining calls with staffers, encouraging him to stay defiant, not resign. Walk me into doing that. Now, I know you've talked about it a lot about here's your brother, here's your family, right?
I was with my brother last night, very close to my brother. I would not have helped him if he was in a situation. I just wouldn't. If I felt like it was a journalistic problem, I don't think I would have helped him. But maybe I'm a terrible sister. What did your brother say when you said, I wouldn't have helped you? He said, that's exactly what you do. And then we had dinner. We're a very close family. I just feel like if he got into trouble, I would either stay away from it. I might help him personally, but I wouldn't help him strategically. Wow.
What's the difference between helping him personally and strategically? Oh, Chris, come on. I hope you're okay. I would not have given him any advice, especially media advice. I wouldn't have helped him with anything, practically. Why not? It's way too much of a conflict, a potential conflict of interest.
But you're not covering it. Well, he was a national figure. And you had him on, you had already made him more of a national figure. But I wasn't covering his allegations. You're covering the country. And also, you need to tell the listeners. Covering the country. You're covering the country. Come on, it was a national news show. I told the audience, Cara, that I'm helping my brother. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I was advising him. I was helping him in ways that I thought were reasonable. You didn't disclose ahead, though. You did disclose in an apology, which you did do. I apologized. I'll tell you why, Cara. Because I was told by my bosses that people at work felt that I had compromised their ability to do their job. Yes. I did not know that. I did not feel that. But being told that...
I absolutely never intended that. And if I had known going into it that me disclosing to my audience that I'm not going to cover my brother and he's my brother, so I want to help him to the extent that I can, would have compromised CNN. I may have made different decisions, but I had no reason to believe that. And that's why I apologize, because the idea of compromising anybody else wasn't my intention.
And I'm very sorry if that were the case. All right, let's play the on-air apology which you made in May 2021 when news of helping your brother was breaking in the news. Here's a clip. This is a unique and difficult situation, and that's okay. I know where the line is. I can respect it and still be there for my family, which I must. I have to do that. I love my brother. I love my family. I love my job.
And I love and respect my colleagues here at CNN. And again, to them, I am truly sorry. So you say you knew where the line was. And in that case, when you were making that apology, I'm not going to parse your apologies. What did you imagine the line was? That you crossed the line with your colleagues and hindered them or that you should have probably not done that? Look, anything that hurt the people that I was working with was not my intention. Now, again...
I never had heard that. And I never, when I say felt it, you know, I'm pretty good at understanding what's happening in our business. And I'd never picked up that CNN was taking heat for what I was doing until it happened. And I think part of the reason was, you know, kind of the media dynamic and crowdsourced consequences and how they can spin into a frenzy. But I just, you know...
I understand the interest in understanding the dynamic. I just see it as so plain and obvious.
I don't even know really what the value of the conversation is, to be honest. What was the line? Well, if you say that what I did hurt you, then I'm sorry, because I never intended that. I had no idea that it was going to hurt you, you being the, you know... The audience. My colleagues, not the audience. I don't know how it hurt the audience. I've never heard that it hurt the audience from the audience. And again, you know...
I have I wouldn't be here if I didn't have respect for what you do and who you are. I don't know what the value to the conversation is beyond pursuit of an inconsistency or, you know, some type of intellectual banter because.
It just seems like a very obvious situation to me. It was just unique because there's nobody else in my position. Well, actually, I was. My wife was a big executive at Google, my ex-wife, actually. I stopped covering Google. I put a disclosure of about 10 pages into our thing, and I made it dead clear to the audience what the problem was. So, you know, I get the problem. But you didn't quit your job. But I think that in your own experience, then, there...
Should probably be some understanding. I do understand. That's why I want to stop being a journalist. No, I also would never have talked to her about any problems she had there or any issues or given her advice, et cetera, et cetera. We differ on that. I don't think that my ability to be a journalist is compromised by helping my family in a situation where I am not covering it at the same time, nor using my
my position to influence coverage of the same. So you didn't cause anything except advice, essentially, is what you're saying. So the AG's investigations made it worse, I guess, in lots of ways, because they started talking about it. And obviously, you talked to them. When they released those new materials, CNN immediately suspended you. And four days later, they fired you. So things changed because of this AG information, correct? Yeah, a couple questions.
Because this is getting increasingly interesting to me, by the way. I usually I'm usually tired of of even thinking about this because I got to move forward at some point. But I don't mean that as a mitigator. You can move any direction you want. One, what do you think of the decision for them to call me in to be deposed? I think it's what prosecutors do. I'm not surprised by it. Really? Yeah. Someone who doesn't work in the office, who has no official connection.
who was not described as material by the people they had interviewed in any way. You don't think that was at all targeted towards causing a little bit of pain? - Probably, yeah. - There you go. - But that's what they do. I'm sorry, that's not a surprise to me. - Oh, no, no, no, no. - Pressure and pain is what they do in many cases. - No, they rarely call in a family member of a politician who had a side capacity
uh, in that. Well, you were in the mix. Excuse me? Maybe you knew some, maybe they thought you knew something. Listen, I don't know, but if you're getting texts from Melissa DeRosa, who worked for your brother, you reply on it. You could, I can see them doing this without thinking it's unusual. You were in the mix and maybe you knew something. But they knew I was in the mix. That's all I'm saying. And again, look,
I put CNN was in a bad position. Yeah, I was in a bad position. My brother was in a bad position. The state was in a bad position. Everybody lost. And I have to be honest, I have always answered the questions.
And I don't believe it's about serving the audience. I believe it's about a standard that I really find fascinating, that journalists want people to believe that they absolutely never, ever, no one ever talks to politicians about the situations they're in and offers them advice. Really? Really, Cara? Come on. So the fact that it was my brother- Yeah.
And they'll say, well, I was never involved as a main guy. I wasn't a main guy either. And if you were to ask people in his administration, they'd say that not only was he a side piece, but he was a side piece where we often thought he didn't know what the hell he was talking about. All right. Chris Cuomo's side piece. I mean, a side aspect, not the way you're taking it in your mind, Kara Swisher. OK, because that's where my mind goes, Chris. CNN has alleged that they didn't know the extent of.
Which they used when suspended and fired. I know, and it's the subject of an arbitration. It is, indeed. And I'll let that decide it. At the same time, a letter was filed by attorney Deborah Katz about her client who made an anonymous sexual misconduct allegation against you. The client was a former junior colleague of yours at another network. You have denied this, correct?
Yes. Okay. And they also allege that you did, I guess, a gimme segment on TV to keep her silent. You also have denied this. Yes. And the reason you haven't said much in the interview with Dan Abrams, you said you didn't want to extend the drama of it because just by talking about it, it makes it worse. Yes. Now, Jeff Zucker was a very close friend of yours, as I recall. Were you surprised he stopped backing you or did he have no choice? No.
I don't know. You'll have to ask him. Have you not talked to him? Nope. One of the things that people at CNN, which you were just talking about, were angry at you about is they felt you were the one who pushed to disclose the romantic relationship he had with Alison Gallist, who is the powerful head of communications and marketing. Did you do that? No, I didn't. So people, but you know, people think you did that, correct?
Cara, people think a lot of things. And very often it's for bad reason or self-serving reason or to hurt somebody else. I'll tell you what. Go ahead. Have you ever heard anybody offer any proof of any of the things that I did beyond the text messages that the attorney general had who did not conclude what many in the media did about my involvement? Have you? Did you think it was fair what happened to him and Alison Gallist? I am not happy about it.
I didn't, you know what I mean? It gave me no joy. I think he's one of the best makers of television. I think he's got one of the best heads for news I've ever been around. He gave me tremendous opportunities. Allison was always on point and good to me until this. And again, very regrettable, but I'm not the guy to play petty gotcha shots and go after people.
I spare others judgment and I put it on myself. So you skew toward loyalty in that regard. Speaking of that, you do have a lot of friends at CNN. You have not talked to them, correct? Don Lemon or Jake Tapper or Zucker himself. Well, no, I mean, look, after Jeff fired me, I mean, there wasn't a lot for us to talk about, right? Yeah.
Okay. So now you're suing CNN for $125 million. The suit justifies it by saying, quote, Cuomo had his journalistic integrity unjustifiably smeared, making it difficult, if not impossible, for Cuomo to find similar work in the future, endangering him in the amount exceeding $125 million. Where does that stand? And you have a new job now, which I'd like to talk about. So you can be hired, apparently. Well...
Do you believe that where I am now is equivalent to where I was? Depends on what you do with it. I'm talking to you in my dining room, okay? I was the number one show at CNN
And I would be recognized in Malawi as much as I would be in Milwaukee. - Yeah, you are hawking t-shirts on YouTube, you are. But I find that to be fantastic. - Yeah, by the way, you made it sound like,
You know, I'm some huckster. You're not a huckster. I'm raising money that we will give away. We played the entire clip and it said that, didn't it? It did. You said it. I know, but you just characterized it in a way that was a little distasteful. I'm teasing you. It's called teasing you. It's teasing you. Yeah, yeah. I sell, I have lots of, I'm wearing swag right now. I'm wearing a pivot shirt. I'm wearing a code thing, please. So this, where is this lawsuit going to go? This, whatever, this negotiation or litigation, arbitration. It's arbitration. It goes wherever the facts lead it. And what, you are still pressing for $125 million. Yeah.
Look, we'll see what the arbitration does. Okay. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, I want to talk about your new job in your dining room. Breaking me over the cold. So you're doing a new show on News Nation, launching October 3rd. What's it called? The Chris Cuomo Experience? No. That's good, though. I know. Well, that's the Joe Rogan Experience. I think Joe Rogan might fire me. Yeah, that's okay. You can take it. What's he going to do? It's called, ready? Yeah. Cuomo. Say that again.
I'm kidding. Don't, please don't. A deep voice. Okay. It's just called Cuomo. Yeah, it works. It works. Now explain what News Nation is. It's, for those who don't know, it's backed by TV station giant Nextar, presided over by Sean Compton. And he's very famous for making Sean Hannity's career early on in radio. All the things he's done and you pick making Sean Hannity famous. No, he did that. That's what he's famous for. It's not a pick, did he do? That's what he, I don't know that that's what he's famous for. I think,
I think the way he's built Nexstar, and by the way, I think his boss, Perry Sook, would like some notice also. But I think how they've built that company is very impressive. Very impressive. I'm joining them because I like what they are about. I did not see growth in going back to places I had been before. Mm-hmm.
Did you have offers? Yeah. And as time has gone past, there has been more interest, which is nice and expected because that's the way our media culture works. But what did that mean for me? Would I want to work at outlets that I now had different feelings about? Could I grow? How would it be perceived? You know, so I wanted to try to build something. And I
I think times have changed. And I think that Perry and Sean respect that at News Nation and respect reach and respect the good fight. The idea of they're an unbiased news station. Everybody says they're unbiased. You're going to have to judge show by show and over time and see what they do. What I pitched them was I am not going to engage in the game.
I'm not going to have people on and fan the flames of the current food fight. I'll have anybody, but we have to have a constructive conversation. And I don't want to hear your explanation for why you're good is because I'm bad.
I think we have to move past that because most people have moved past it. So News Nation originally was called, for people who don't know, Project Neutral, which was interesting. They've had some up and down, I think Bill Shine hiring caused a lot of ruckus. He worked for the White House, obviously, and Fox News. But it's branding itself, and you are branding yourself as nonpartisan, purveyor of truth. I've always been nonpartisan.
Having watched you every night, I would not agree with you. I think you spent years bashing Trump a lot, much of which was deserved. But there's definitely... What did I ever go after Trump for that was undeserved?
Well, it creates a situation at CNN where people feel that you have CNN here and Fox doing this. You know that. Come on. No, no, no. I know that's the game and the narrative. Yes, which you were playing. But here's my feeling, okay? I think that that is a bullshit analysis. Not yours. I'm saying the idea that Fox defended him and CNN attacked him. On my show, here's what I did, okay? I gave then Donald Trump and then President Trump
a fair hearing, okay? And if he said things that were demonstrably false, which he did frequently, I called it out because of how it erodes trust and it's a crisis. I didn't go after his kids and call names and all. I had Kellyanne on. I had his people on. I gave him his best case. Not like Hannity would, but I'm not his buddy, okay? That's not my business.
So I don't buy this. Well, you went after Trump. Yeah. And that makes me a lefty. I think Chuck Schumer has done Biden a disservice. I think he made him look foolish early on by not being able to give him reasonable expectations of outcome.
So now what am I? Am I a righty in the game? Yes. And you'll see that now. Well, people think that. Who cares if people think that? It's why do they think it? If you look at Twitter right now, people say, well, now he's a righty. I am? Really?
Why? Because I say things that are critical about the left that are now being understood in a new context? I want more parties. I want ranked choice voting. I want term limits in Congress. And I want electors apportioned by the states that matter. Is that right or left or is it reasonable?
I want more parties. I don't care about the left and the right. I think it's killing us. I agree with you, but I think it's against a backdrop of team playing, which is what you described. And there is this idea of... No, you say there's a backdrop.
You have to establish that I'm part of it more than because people who don't like my effectiveness go on Twitter and try to mitigate my effectiveness by saying I'm something bad. I know, but I think you're ignoring what is happening in this country. I don't think it's 50 people on Twitter. I think there is real division. And I think it's been amplified and weaponized by the Internet and social media and also by media itself. I say something all the time. Enragement.
equals engagement. Can you fight this very powerful? Thank you. You can use it anytime. Can you fight this very powerful trend? Because you can't get people to watch. And oddly, you know, interestingly enough, this is exactly what CNN is doing right now. How do you look at what they're doing under Chris Licht? Because that's what they're saying, too. I have to see how it develops. They got great horses there. They have great resources. They cover news, which is something we all need to get back to.
um you know I mean the the embarrassment of how we've ignored Ukraine uh is Jackson Mississippi that's what I'm going to do on my show um what are they going to do I don't know we'll see I wish them well I hope there's success all over the place do you have any thoughts about the changes there are you still in touch not yet I gotta see what they are but I don't like the idea that they're saying they're going to be more middle ground look I know that their new ownership
I had some reservations or concerns, and there is some controversy surrounding that. I think a lot of people in the media like to see CNN go down because it was so powerful. And they tried to make that happen because I believe that that's what our business is often about, is tearing things down as a negativity, as a proxy for insight.
But I don't believe in middle ground. I believe that there's left and right, and then there's reasonable. And usually the three are very distinguishable from one another. Again, it's like boring to people. It's tedious. Can you get people watching? I mean, obviously, News Nation is small, 50,000, 80,000 versus a million. So what? First of all, two things, three things. One, so is your audience. But you're very influential. Why? You should be. You're smart. You think about things. I think I'm bigger than News Nation, but go ahead.
Well, but it's just starting. Okay. I mean, people know me in a way they don't know you. Right. So, and who cares where, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a fan. All right. I like what you do. And what I'm saying is it's okay. If you're not the biggest, you don't have to be the biggest. You have to resonate with people that matter. And I'm not looking to feed the fire breathers or the fringes. There's enough of that.
That doesn't mean that there's not a need for this. In fact, a desperation for this.
And I think I see that in my own growth. And yes, News Nation is a startup. Yeah. That's okay. You're an entrepreneur, Chris Cuomo, entrepreneur. I dig that because I'll tell you what, I don't know shit about being an entrepreneur, but I'm learning and I've never really been attracted to money as an end. So figuring out cash flows and monetization and stuff like that, it's hard for me because I don't have a natural appetite for it, but it's an interesting exercise. And this is the best answer I have.
I like that it's a startup because I'm not coming into an audience that has been preconditioned. It's going to be organically grown there. And I dig that. And I think the audience is vast. And I must...
you know, point out to people who say it doesn't exist. They said that about Trump too. Okay. That, and everybody knew who has traveled this country, that there were tons of disaffected, disenfranchised feeling white people. And that was the strength of Fox news where I worked and
Okay? So I was not surprised by that. I knew it existed. I knew who Steve King and Tom Tan Credo and those guys were playing to, and I knew it was real. And the media was like, nah, nah, nah, nah. They were wrong because a lot of media is out of touch. I'm not. So you think now those disaffected people are the reasonable people? I think there are reasonable people.
I think some of them are disaffected people. I think some of the people who voted for Trump did so for bad reason. Some people did it for good reason. And some people did it for no reason. They felt they had no choice. They could not vote for Hillary Clinton. She represents everything that's wrong with politics to them. And they were not going to reward lawmakers who they think are perfidious in the main to tell them that Donald Trump was unworthy of joining their ranks.
And I say instead of going after Trump all the time, which, again, the media is doing with this civil suit keyword civil. So you are not impressed by A.G. James work right now? No, no, no. That's not fair or accurate. I'm saying if the behavior is as egregious as she outlined and I have no reason to believe that it isn't. OK, then why aren't they criminal charges?
Why isn't the New York D.A. bringing them? It's been referred to the SDNY and the IRS. Why aren't they bringing cases then? Now, I'm not saying that that's suspicious. I'm saying the bar is high. He's going to say you're victimizing him. And we have to examine it very carefully, especially where Trump is involved, because every time you swing and miss something,
It erodes confidence. Okay. I want to end, I do want to end on family and your brother. Just one quick question. If CNN tried to hire you back for 10 million a year, would you go? If we have some butts with cherries and nuts, we'd all have a beautiful Christmas. Where'd you get that? I don't even want to know. All right. You can have that one, by the way. You can keep it. I'm moving forward. Okay, good. I'm moving forward. You put that one down, and it's a good idea to do so. What's your relation with your brother like now? Good? Good.
I don't know. What's it like? What's your relationship like with your brother? Well, he kind of got you fired. He's my brother. The thing got you fired. He's my brother. Okay. All right. I just feel like there's such an odd disconnect between media and like regular people. You know, people love their family. This is not unique. It is not special. It is not conditional. Nobody gets along all the time in a family. That's a lie. If people say they do, they're lying.
And that's okay too, if that's what they want to do. But of course I love my brother. Okay. Of course you love your brother. Are you going to have him on your show? Maybe not. I mean, I haven't planned on it. Yeah, maybe not. You know, I mean, like why would I have him on? I mean, I don't know. I don't, I honestly, I don't know. I mean, he's not in office. I mean, you know, that's, I don't, I don't know. I think if I had him on,
People like you would feast on it for like three days in a row. But I don't know. I don't care. People like me. I'm not a media critic. I don't care. I could care less. All media. It's your show. You own it. What? Yeah. Media. Okay. Are media critics. Yeah. Not really. That's what we do in this business. All right. Okay. All right. Well, not a bad thing. We talk about each other. So he also just to settle this, he's filed an ethics investigation into A.G. James. Are you advising him this? I have nothing to do with it because I don't really have any help that I can offer.
And, you know, he does not need me answering for him. He's a big boy. Yeah. He can answer his own situations. All right. Last question. I know you have to go. We're going to ask guests on the show to give unsolicited advice to various people, but I'm going to change it a bit for you. What advice do you think your father, famous for City on the Hill ethics and fantastic speeches, et cetera, would give you right now? I told you that Kara Swisher is a gotcha chasin'. No, I'm not.
I'll tell you what he would say, because he said it many times. He would say, of course, it depends on the context, right? About, let's say, just to make it easy. What do you do professionally? Help. And balance what you do professionally with your real responsibilities, which are to your family, to your kids, to your friends. That's your real work. Your real work is taking care of your own.
And hopefully if you're blessed the way I am, that's an expansive circle. But make sure you're helping. Be a part of something bigger than yourself. My father was obsessed with that. Now, he was not a huge, let's say this the right way. He did not love the idea of me going into the media when I left the law and finance.
He believes this is a very compromised industry and he believed that I would always be a target. All right. Last very last question. Can you build back that trust or do you think you're just starting again? I don't think I have it. You know, am I going to build back my trust with the people who believe for bad and no reason that I did things that I didn't do?
I gotta respect the source before I respect the criticism. I'm talking to you because I respect you. I answer your questions the best I can because they're fine. I don't think they're the most helpful questions for your audience, but that's okay. If you want to ask them, you ask them. I don't think that the audience, you know, has the same interest in it that we do. And I don't think that it's about people feeling a certain way that has to be changed.
And what the industry thinks of me, I've never been a favorite. I'm probably the only number one show at a network that nobody ever wrote about being number one. Now, part of that is because I don't do a lot of interviews because I believe that a lot of the outcomes are obvious and often net to neutral or negative and not worth the effort. But you really are a politician, son.
I am no politician. Son. I hate politics. I would never enter politics. I would never suggest someone go into politics. I do respect many of the people who make that decision because I know they're doing it for the right reasons. But it's not for me. Yeah. It is not for me. This is for me. I'm okay with this. I like this. I like being engaged. I like engaging. But
I'm definitely changed by the experience, and that's okay. I think people make a big, big mistake in their own mind when they take themselves too seriously and think they're too special. On that, we will end. Me and my bad questions. People are interested. You're wrong. Do you have another last question? No, that was it. Unless you have another one. You said last question like 17 times. I always say last question. That's my thing. That's my thing. It's all about music.
Oh, Kara, you really did go at it with Chris Cuomo in that conversation. Yes, it was spicy. It was a spicy discussion. At it and after it. And I have to say, he was a good sport. I got to say he answered all the questions. You know, not everybody likes Chris Cuomo, but I have to say, one thing I like that he answered, he did answer all the questions, and two, you know, he's still trying. He's still going. I wish we had talked a little bit more about News Nation. You know, even if you didn't,
If you don't like him, the man is a good broadcaster. He really is. He's very compelling to look at. He's very energetic. And so we'll see if it works. They certainly are trying something fresh and different. And I always like that. Yeah. And he answered the questions. He had a good sense of humor. And he did remind you that he's more famous than you are, Kara Swisher. He is indeed. He is. I liked when he called you Kara Swisher. Yeah, I know. Gotcha. That's my name. Gotcha Swisher. Gotcha journalist. Give me a break. All right. So, Kara, you asked Chris for some...
advice from his father to him. And we're going to be doing some unsolicited advice this week because you're so good at dispensing it. You give me unsolicited advice all the time about how to handle my boyfriend. Usually dating advice. Yeah, exactly. That hasn't really panned out yet, but you'll see. So who is your unsolicited advice for this week?
You know, it's not for Adam Levine, but it's about Adam Levine. You know, I'm not a particular fan of Maroon 5 or their music or anything like that. But what he did is he wrote some sex. He's married to a supermodel. They have they're about to have their third kid. I think she's pregnant with their third kid.
And he was writing sexy texts to people or flirty texts. I don't think they were that sexy, I think they were just flirty. To a series of people, apparently. One is alleging that they had an affair. And so, you know, I don't really care.
But anyway, so everybody on the internet is making memes and they're doing all kinds of things around it 'cause he had a couple different phrases that are very easy to make fun of and do memes about. And I get it, I get that that's the case, but here's the deal. We talk about privacy a lot, the press does, the tech industry violating privacy.
This is this guy's private text. Is this really ours to like, you know, to schadenfreude over? I think it's very untoward when people do that, when they do that. Every single person,
has a text there, find unfortunate, I'm guessing, would be the issue. And so if the old media talks about... Not me, Cara. My texts are perfect. No, mine are not. Oh, my God. I definitely don't want people seeing my text. I know, exactly. And so, you know, whatever. It's not our business what his marriage is like. It's not our business that he wants to write flirty texts with people who...
seems like it was consensual. I assume it's consensual because they were texting back and I don't know. I feel very icky. I felt very icky with the Bezos stuff and I was really glad when Jeff Bezos said, print them. I don't care. Your advice is to publishers, stop printing it, stop covering it. I just,
I don't think we're ever going to stop putting that like it's gone on since the beginning of time when celebrities, you know, all those celebrity magazines, it just seems when we're all participating in it, it's not our prettiest side. And it makes us feel like we're all in high school and we're the jerkiest people ever. And so, you know, for a minute I was like, oh, what joke can I make? And then I'm like, you know what, maybe not so much. Not so much. And it's fine if it's politicians and like they say something stupid and you can respond to it. But...
This is a guy's personal life and he said he's sorry and I don't know, it just feels kind of icky. You know, I get really mad when people say you're doing that for clickbait. Most things the media does is not for clickbait. It is and I hate when people do that. But in this case, yes, sorry, that's exactly what it is. And so, you know, I don't think it's fun. I see why people do it, but I don't think it's fun anyway. And I think you look worse than Adam Levine does. And I'm not your mama, but if I was, I wouldn't like you to do it.
And so that's my advice and you're welcome. And by the way, if you're in a pickle and you want Kara's advice, we're also going to be answering listener questions. You can call 1-888-KARA-PLEASE. That is 1-888-K-A-R-A-P-L-Z or Zed as they say it in the Queen's English. And ask your question after the beep. Kara, you've given me great advice over the years from career tips to boyfriend advice to fashion tips. No. No. No.
Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Blake Neshek, Christian Castro Rossell, and Raffaella Seaworth. Fernando Arruda and Chris Shurtleff engineered this episode. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, good for you. If not, what are you waiting for? Go wherever you get your podcasts. Look for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow.
Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and me. I mean us, me and Goose. We'll be back on Thursday with more. All right, Kara. Don't kill me off yet.