"Burn Book" Takes SxSW, with "Mensch" Mark Cuban
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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!

Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Today, you get a bonus episode and a bonus leg of my tour for my memoir, Burn Book, A Tech Love Story. There's a chapter in the book about the Menches, the Silicon Valley figures I like and respect. It's a short chapter, but today I'm talking to one of them, Mark Cuban, at a conversation taped live at South by Southwest in a session presented by the software company Atlassian.

I met Mark decades ago, well before his incarnations as Shark Tank star or his mission to crack the challenge of American healthcare with his latest enterprise, Cost Plus Drugs. Back then, he was kind of a tech bro when he and his partners sold Broadcast.com to Yahoo for billions of dollars. Over the years, I've seen Mark evolve and change, and I'm very excited to sit down with him in Austin. You'll hear that conversation right after the break. ♪

Hey, Kariswisher listeners. Sue Bird here. I'm Megan Rapinoe. Women's sports are reaching new heights these days, and there's so much to talk about. So Megan and I are launching a podcast where we're going to deep dive into all things sports, and then some. We're calling it...

a touch more. Because women's sports is everything. Pop culture, economics, politics, you name it. And there's no better folks than us to talk about what happens on the court or on the field and everywhere else too. And we'll have a whole bunch of friends on the show to help us break things down. We're talking athletes, actors, comedians, maybe even our moms. That'll be a fun episode.

Whether it's breaking down the biggest games or discussing the latest headlines, we'll be bringing a touch more insight into the world of sports and beyond. Follow A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Well, tables have turned. Yeah, as if. And I've got my questions. We'll see. We'll see. Are you nervous? No. You should be.

I'm terrified. Not even slightly. So I just finished a book and you talk a lot about the men that have built tech and the business world in general. Right. But we know most of who they are, right? And everybody knows that. But what you really didn't talk enough about in my mind were the women in tech. True. Because you want to know why, but go ahead. Well, no, other than the obvious, right? But you still could. There have been women who have had significant impacts.

Right. And not just impacts in the tech world, but in the world in general. Sure. And I want to want you to start talking about who's had the of the women that you've dealt with. Right. Even if they're spouses, who do you think has had the biggest impact in tech? And who do you think is now having the biggest impact in the world? Well, you say even if they're spouses, because some spouses are critically important.

Well, that's the whole point, right? Yeah. Yes. And I did talk about Mackenzie Bezos when she, she's now Mackenzie Scott and has been doing an astonishing job at philanthropy, for example. So there's a, what happened in a lot of early internet people, the spouses and these, the reason why it's largely men is because as you know, it's a sausage fest in tech. Um, and, um,

Big, different sized sausages, but sausages. And so it's hard when you... So when you said I was a mensch, what the, you know... Well, you started off as a tech bro, because you and I did not start off on a good foot. You were such a jerk. But he is a boss. I've never been a jerk to you. You were like, I'm the greatest. I'm fantastic. Oh, never, never. You were so wrong. No, you was you. I'm saying you had a journey, which is good. I'm complimenting you. You can't take... But still... Take yes for an answer. Okay. So...

Let me talk about the women. One of the things that happened when, for example, remember when Meg Whitman became CEO of HP, big company, big, important company. And she had previously done an astonishing job at eBay. Very good CEO. We had a beef about her gay stance when she ran for government, but she later recanted it and in fact became one of the only Trump critics early on. She wouldn't do anything with him, even though she was one of the few Republicans out Republicans in Silicon Valley.

When she became head of HP, I called Sheryl Sandberg to tell her. I was like, you're now the second most important woman in tech. And she said, I'd like to be the 10th, you know, which is really interesting. Because if you really, one of the problems we had at Code all the time and All Things D was we had CEOs on stage and it was very hard to

you could find people who were below. Google had a lot of women below. Susan Wojcicki, I would say, and I wrote about her in the book, was a very significant person. They started Google in her garage. She was an executive at Intel. She was a real steadying force at that company, later took over YouTube, et cetera. And so she would be someone like that, but she tended not to try to take any spotlight from them for a long time. And that brings up an interesting point. Like,

these guys that you wrote about needed babysitters. Those babysitters typically were women. Sometimes, sometimes, but I always was offended by that idea of, it was more than that. It was adult in the room. Remember that expression? They need an adult. Carried on to the presidency. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And so, so I found that offensive. I was like, they are adults. They are adults. You found because they are adults. Treating it like that. So, so to me,

It gave them an out, like they could act any way they wanted and then they did. And so it was the, they needed an adult when they were adults. Like talking, Mark was, Mark Zuckerberg was particularly with Sheryl Sandberg. And when she came in, she absolutely stabilized things. It was a goat rodeo at that company, as you know. And they kept firing different people and shifting around and Mark was very inexperienced.

And it was a mess. Like early Google was like that. Most early companies are much more chaotic than people realize. And then later they retell the story as inspirationally wacky. Yeah, but Sheryl's contribution wasn't just being a stabilizing influence. No, it wasn't. And that's what I want you to talk more about. Sheryl Sandberg was absolutely critical to the success of Facebook. She was over at Google. And the reason I was mentioning Google is Google had a lot of women. Marissa Mayer, there was Shona Brown, Susan Wojcicki, all right under the main...

prominent executives, by the way, including my ex-wife, Megan Smith, underneath the bottom part, but not the CEO, not the top position. And they were critical to that. And Sheryl, of all of them, was the most critical, I would say, in terms of growing it and stabilizing it and putting in business systems, particularly, especially advertising employees. I mean, she really built that business. And previously, she had done it at Google for part of the advertising business.

the automated stuff and so she was absolutely critical and a stabilizing force on mark right in terms of of getting the the boy she's also a great manager right absolutely that's the part that's stabilizing on him on the whole company right right right because she put aside the stabilization of mark zuckerberg and the hoodieisms and all that kind of stuff it was more like

organizationally setting structure because he had no skills there whatsoever. No, no, he was product. So he was all product. So when you talk about the history of Facebook, I don't think she gets enough credit for actually defining the organization and setting roles for people below her.

Yes, here's what I'd say. I don't think it's a credit book. I'm saying the damage book. And one of the things I did, and I wrote a column on this in New York Times, is there was a lot of attacks on her when things started to go south and not him because he needed adult supervision. He was, you know, whatever, whatever it happens to be. You know, Elon's the way he is because of demons. Oh, demons, really? Maybe he's just an asshole. I'm really trying not to mention his name, right? Yeah, well, you have your own.

Did you know you were a moron? I don't care. I'm also a racist. That's right. I heard about that. But one of the things that was important for Cheryl is she was his full partner in that. I would say they were partners because she didn't have a product background and he certainly did. And he also had the love of techies, right? They had these little, that's how you get people going. And so she did not have that. And I think it's a discounted talent for a lot of these, absolutely discounted talent.

At the same time, she got a lion's share to me of the blame when things went south. It was like, oh, he's a genius. Her, she's a dragon lady kind of thing. And I think, listen, I think she was utterly compromised. I told this to her face at the time when the Russian stuff started. I warned her she was going to get double blamed for everything. And I do think the women definitely had a harder time. But right now, Mark, let's think. Lisa Su at AMD.

I mean, Dr. Fei-Fei Li isn't getting the attention she deserves. She was, I wrote at ImageNet. She's, she started ImageNet at Google. Women in prominent positions of power, not the ones you think of them in, but prominent scientific. I know what you're saying. Yeah. Running the show. Or business operations or whatever it happened to be. Because,

in most of silicon valley and i think you can agree with me it's always hrpr yeah for sure yeah well you have to put the easy hires yes right where you don't have to give responsibility to you know who's going to impact the earnings per share but it was also on boards it was absolutely on board non-existent non-existent which is a very easy place to be diverse in some fashion the underlying message in your book is

These guys are assholes in a lot of respects. You know, not all, you know, thank you for not thinking I'm still an asshole or many of you were never an asshole I'm just saying you've evolved and you've sort of you've gotten better is all I'm saying. That's I think what I'm saying Okay, let's talk more about that But you know you could have named it I told you so yes, yes, yes, yes

Yes. But I could have told you so. Right? You know? But that's the beauty of you. Yeah. Right? Because... Well, I did predict the insurrection, but let's move on. Go ahead. Which one? Which one? The main one. The main one, yeah. The most recent one, not way back in 17... Well, that wasn't an insurrection. That was a revolution. But yeah, no, I think I've been right quite a lot of the time. Which is great, right? Yeah. That's why I love you, and that's why I love when you... We do interviews because...

you're confident in everything that you do, right? But confidence is one thing. Being prepared and understanding these things, right? That's right. What do you think makes you capable of the I told you so and the seeing around corners? Right. So it's more, it's not that I told you so. One of the things I wanted to be was...

was a spy essentially, but more an analyst. Like I wanted to be in the military. I was gay and I couldn't be, 'cause I'm old, you and I are both old and there was- - We're young, we're just getting younger. - We're young at heart. But what it was, was I couldn't be in the military and I really wanted to be in military intelligence. I was very interested in propaganda from a young age.

And so I spent a lot of time doing what is essentially puzzles, like what's happening here? What's going on there? Put this together. I know this person to be like this. And so that's what I would often do. Like, this is the way I think it's gonna be. And one of the things that Silicon Valley lacks is any ability to anticipate consequences, never.

ever. And I'm really good at anticipating consequences. And so sometimes I just, cause I have so much knowledge and spend so much time focused on people. I mean, I, I interview everyone when they leave a job. I do, I go get them. They don't, no one wants to talk to them. I'm like, I'm the exit interview. And then they tell you things, right? And then you put it together. But that takes a knowledge base, right? So someone who wants to be like Kara Swisher, right? That wants to emulate you as best as possible.

Right. There's a process you go through to know these things. That's right. That's what I want to understand. Let me give you an example. When Yahoo bought Tumblr, remember that disaster? But at the time it was she wanted something hot to make Yahoo. Yahoo was like decidedly uncool. Yeah. And so I had heard a rumor that they were buying something. That's all I heard. They're buying something and it's a billion dollars. That's all I got. And I was like, OK. Yeah.

This is what I got to work sort of like you remember that Apollo movie where they had here's all the pieces Let's figure out the solution. So it's like okay a billion dollars Marissa mayor Yahoo She needs to be cool. That was my first cuz she's desperate to be cool because she wasn't very cool So she and Yahoo wasn't very good to be a recurring theme and a lot of yes exactly And so so I said what could it be and I made a list of companies worth that you know at all that could be sold for that and the valuations because I was aware of those and I was like I

What does she want? Like I knew her because I'd met her at Google. I'd spent a lot of time with her. I had, I watched her think. And then I thought, well, who would she get along with? What could she buy? What could she get now? What would, who are the people she knows really well? And so I made a list and the top three, Tumblr was on it.

And I knew they needed money. That was well known that they were sort of running out. They were very popular, had problems with porn and stuff like that. And they needed a bigger thing. And it was not unsimilar when Google bought YouTube. What did they need to get right at then? And so I thought, okay, the first three, and I started calling the venture. I knew who the venture capitalists were for each of them.

And so often I bluff people like you're very good at gambling and stuff like that. I'm not. I don't play poker, but I bluff really well. And so I basically lie. That's what I do super well. And so I said I call one. I'm saying, did I hear Yahoo's buying this for a billion dollars? No, Kara, that's silly. No, no, no, no, no. That didn't happen.

The third one was Tumblr and the venture capitalist. And I call a lot of them, one of whom lied to me out. No, absolutely. I know it never happens. Oh my God. Mark Andreessen. So in any case, it's neither here nor there. Neither is he. So you like that, don't you? Yeah. This is an inside joke right here.

But so then I called the third venture capitalist at Tumblr and they're like, how did you know everything, Kara? And I was like, I do. Like they just told me, right? They just told me. But underneath that, right? So there's a question of knowledge accumulation, right? And relationships, right? That's right. Those are two things. Two different things, right? So part of it is knowing the industry and having to do the work and, and,

did you, do you think you benefited more from developing all these relationships early? No. Right. Cause you couldn't get those relationships, right? Cause they change over time and then they isolate themselves. Like I don't know who you were at the time. Well, except nobody knew who they were. So I was at the wall street journal. So that gave me an advantage. So like Jeff Bezos was my best, my best buddy until he didn't need me anymore.

right? So I understood that trade. Like he needed attention because that was a struggling company. Same thing with the Google guys. Nobody was paying attention to them. They weren't, they were little. Which is insane when you think, cause I remember going to the Google office with Patrick Keene. Oh wow. Yeah. And, and that's how I got my early Gmail account. Right. And so, but it was like 2000, right when they had just started. Right. And looking at their numbers and they were just parabolic and up to the right. Yeah. And, and,

hardly anybody knew who they were they didn't they didn't and i had gotten there much earlier even because john dore had who i'd spent some time with and mike moritz they were the early investors and john who was not i really liked john a lot and he was not effusive he goes carrie you need to go see this and i go come on another search engine because it had been the 10th right there's so many there was i forget all the names of all the ones and i was like a search and he goes i

I promise you it's not a waste of your time. But he was trying to get in the Wall Street Journal, right? So that was, I had the advantage there. And I went to the garage where Susan's garage. And I was like, oh, I see. Like he did. He was right. So he turned me on to that. And then I spent a lot of time with him. And, you know, these people, no matter how you slice it, are narcissists for the most part. And so they like the attention of a reporter. Same thing with Amazon. I went with Jeff when he picked one of his first headquarters out in a really crappy place.

section of Seattle because he couldn't afford anything else. And then what they did, which is a mistake on their part, was they thought I was their friend or their pal. Are you trying to tell me something? No, I like you. You, I like. There's a list I have. Dave Goldberg was one of them. You're one of them, who I very much like. I'm happy to have met and consider a friend. But you just start to develop these relationships.

And then sometimes they sort of realize the penny drops. You know, if they're adults, they get it. They sort of get what the trade is here. And when you're a beat reporter, there's a real trade because, you know, there's that access versus this and that. After I started All Things D, I didn't care anymore. We just said what we felt, like what we want. And most smart people kind of liked it, like you liked it for sure. Right, no, for sure, because...

you know, I like doing interviews with you because you would get me to talk about things I normally wouldn't talk about. Right. And I want the trade off was that informed people about whatever I was doing, but also made me more introspectful about what I was doing. Because I think one of the things is I talk to people when I'm not doing a story. I sometimes just call, like I, I write you and like, what do you think of this? Like, cause I'm interested. And so I develop relationships over time. And I also, I don't,

trade information but you know when Elon made fun and said fuck you Bob from the stage of the New York Times thing I texted Bob Iger I have his number I get everybody's cell phone number by the way that's a really good tip and I texted him I said say nothing like say don't just get out of the room don't respond it

It's he's crazy. Like don't say anything. He's trying to get you to respond because he somewhere in his life, he didn't get hugged enough. You need to move along. And so and I don't it wasn't a piece of advice. I was like, you know, I probably I would like it if I was a beat reporter, if he said something. So then I get a good story. But at that point, I was like, let's not feed the beast, essentially. And so, you know, that's the kind of thing I would talk to people when they didn't have things. I developed the relationship.

I would often meet people's, I haven't met your parents yet though. I meet their parents, I meet their brothers and sisters sometimes. I know who their friends are also and their minions. Now you're scaring me. It's just information. Well, but yeah, but one of the things like when we talk, we go back and forth, like we DM each other, whatever, text each other. Like you're always checking your whole card. That's one of the things I like. And so talk about that. What was that, a call card? What's that? Oh, yeah.

Well, it's a poker reference. Oh, okay, fine. Check your whole card like when you were playing 21. Okay, good. So you want to make sure you're right, right? Don't make any sports references because I know I'm a lesbian, but it's not going to work for you. But you do drive a Subaru, right? I did have a Subaru. It's called a Lesburu, by the way. I have a Kia now and a Chevy Bolt. I'm a very sexy lady. I actually have a Kia too. Do you? I love my Kia. Yeah, we're sexy people, you and I. We are sexy people. We love our Kias. But, you know, talk about that, right? Because...

What you come up, your conclusions are one thing, but how you get there. Yeah. Right. You're always asking, right? What do you think? What do you think? You know, because you're always, you know, particularly when it comes to the guy that owns the,

Company formerly known as Twitter, right? You know, why do you think he's doing this? So talk about just your process. In their case, like when you went in there and which I admire you for the DEI stuff, you know, you went in there wanting to have a real debate. Like you said, and you also didn't go, DEI is just good. You didn't like do that. You said, here's what I didn't do. Here's why it worked for me. Here's where it doesn't work. But you did it in a way that this is my experience and why I think it's a good thing. And you don't have to do it. Like I, you were quite, I was like very proud.

of you when you did that. And it was long. It wasn't Bill Ackman long, but it was long, right? But yours was helpful. I was like, oh, this is interesting. And then the response you got from Elon was, you're a moron. Is that a debate? He wasn't interested. Then he called me a racist, and then he deleted it, then he called me a moron. That was instructive to me because he didn't want to have a debate. He didn't want to have an actual discussion. And he never does. He never does, right? No.

of them don't like they don't want to have it you want to have a real discussion about this okay like it's okay to touch this these third rails of issues and he just he didn't but many people he's not looking to push anything forward other than himself right but that's why that's what I like when people do that when people want to actually have a debate I often like I just did an interview with Mike Gallagher who I agree with on a lot of things about China he's you know his gay stuff is off the

I don't love. But we have, we've been having really interesting, he's leaving Congress. I think he's really smart. I'll have a discussion with anyone. I like Ken Bach is another person I've spent a lot of time with because he took the time to do the homework on tech stuff, got himself educated. We don't agree on everything, but boy, isn't an interesting discussion. Now he's turned out to be one of the more cogent voices saying it actually wasn't stolen. Stop this nonsense. And this is a,

ruby red conservative from Colorado that but I saw when he's leaving though right he's leaving so it's Mike Gallagher it is heartbreaking would you ever run for office would you no but would you I'm asking the question I'm the interviewer yeah but you're the I'm the interviewer I think I think you are running for president I do I do I believe you are I'm just saying so would you ever run for office I would be your press secretary well let me

Let me ask you a question. All right. Try again. No. Yes, I thought about it. I thought about running for mayor of San Francisco. Who wants care to run for mayor of San Francisco? No, they have a good mayor. So at the time, there was a mayor I thought wasn't good. And then he died in a supermarket, which I feel bad about. But he still wasn't a good mayor. So I lived there. And you could see the issues beginning, especially homeless. There was always a homeless problem, even in Gavin, everything else. Right.

And one of the things I found myself doing is I found myself griping too much. Like, oh, the politicians, oh, this, you know, I mean, griping. Kara Swisher griping? Griping, griping, exactly. No, no way. Exactly, I hate griping. I gripe, no, but I don't gripe. I make criticisms. But I was griping. Griping is different. It's like, you know, that kind of thing. I can't, I can't do anything about it. And so I thought, you know, I have to stop frigging griping and run. Like, stop it. Stop it. Be a citizen. Don't say why they suck.

which I really hate is this contrarian for the sake of contrarian culture that never wants to solve anything. They just want to tell you what's wrong and how right they are kind of thing. And so one of the things I thought about was running for office because I thought, let me see. As a Democrat or a Republican? Democrat, obviously. Although a Republican would fuck people up, right? Like Taya Leone on Madam Secretary. But I would have, and then I ended up, COVID ended up happening and I ended up having two more children, which...

Changes things changes things like I can't I can't I I like the children better than being mayor of San Francisco So what's the greatest misunderstanding of Kara Swisher? um that I'm

That's interesting. That's a good question. Thank you. That I'm mean. That I'm mean. I don't like that. I don't think I am. I don't think that... I often ask, they're like, you're really mean to someone. I'm like, where in the interview was that moment? And they're like, well, you're just mean. I'm like, but where is it? Where is the actual unfair question? Okay, well, right there, right? There's unfair, but most people won't ask the unfair question because it's mean. Right, right. But it's not mean. It's not a mean question.

question you shouldn't ask it right that's who you are you have to mean it's like here's you're an adult person you should be able to answer a question like honestly these people aren't made of paper mache like and especially when you agree to an interview with you right that's correct like what do you think you're gonna get does this mean when steve jobs or he we did the last interview walt and i did and i asked him at the at the interview we were talking about a lot of things and he was quite vibrant to the end it was one great thing he looked

he looked very ill on stage. He was skeletal. I don't know if you were at that one, but he was skeletal. He looked like he was quite on the edge of not getting up again, dawning down, not getting up again. But he was vibrant. And so for some reason, I looked at him and I said, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? And everyone in the room was like, oh no, did she just ask a dying person? But as far as I'm concerned, we're all dying. Second of all, he wanted to...

to talk about that and he gave the best answer and so he didn't mind that but the people did like they did the one question I did want to ask that I didn't because I I should have now that I think about it was I was interviewing Tim Cook and he's not as interesting as Steve Jobs let's just be clear he's very like few people are few people are but he's really not

compared to that. I like him. I really like him, but you know, he's... You're so mean. I'm not mean. You know what I'm talking... You know, you spend time with him. So when I was talking to him, and it was clear he's gay. I knew it. Everyone knew it. And I wish I had asked him about it. But then I thought it was disrespectful because as a gay person, whether when and where you choose to come out. At the same time, he was also the most prominent

person who I knew to be gay in tech, right? At all, right? It's a very small group of people. And I wish I had found a way to talk to him about that publicly. Although I don't think it was as big a part of his identity as other parts, right? So in that case, I thought it really isn't part of his identity that he wants out there in some fashion. It wasn't that he was closeted so much as it

He didn't find it to be the most interesting part of his personality. So that's why I made that decision. We'll be back in a minute.

What is up, people of the internet? I'm Marques Brownlee, aka MKBHD, and I just wanted to quickly tell you about my podcast, Waveform. So after making tech reviews on YouTube for over a decade, I've had the chance to check out some real groundbreaking tech and some real dud products. And so on Waveform, along with my co-hosts Andrew Manganielli and David Amell, we capture our immediate reactions to new technology that's coming out every week, from smartphones to EVs, and even AI finding its way into everything. We've got you covered.

And you also get a bit of a sneak peek into what it's like working at a YouTube channel closing in on 20 million subscribers. So if you want to stay up to date with the latest tech and internet news and culture and all sorts of stuff like that, you can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you listen. See you over there. So now where we are in tech, what scares you? Oh, a couple things.

The continued lack of accountability by the tech industry the lack of any guardrails by the government or okay Let's talk about that right. Okay, that's a big topic. Yes, of course. So how do you see AI? I'm not scared of it like the other I'm not like oh my god, it's gonna kill Terminator I'm not in the terminator zone with people I know they are but it's not true if you start to do research if you look at it and you talk to people like dr. Fei Fei Li and others that I respect I

You know, you get like, okay, here's what could go wrong. Here's what couldn't go wrong. We'll talk about that, right? Because you see around corners, right? Right. This is the whole, I told you so in advance. Well, I just did an interview with Reed Jobs, Steve's son, who's, he's doing a lot of stuff. And we obviously talked about AI and healthcare, right? It's every aspect is going to, it's like, is the internet that bad?

or how people used it bad, right? Like the internet itself, it's like electricity. And I think the core of the book is that quote by Paul Virilio, when you invent the ship, you invent the shipwreck. Right. Which is a great quote, by the way. Yes, it is. I highlighted it. Yes, I know. It's a really wonderful quote. You know I highlighted it? What? Why?

You know I highlighted it? No, everybody did. Everyone did. Everyone did. Every person did. They love that quote. It resonates. And so I don't find the thing itself scary, although it's certainly, you know, we all have a science fiction in our head. So that's, you know, we're in that zone of 2001, A Space Odyssey, Terminator particularly. There's a lot of stuff.

You know, any one black mirror, that whole thing, right? You have all those. You can imagine the bad outcomes very easily. And you can actually say this could be used. What I also do is what could it be used for good? Like healthcare, for example. Come on, like drug discovery. The list goes on. How's it going to apply to insurance, HR, efficiency in media, stuff like that. Is that a net positive in terms of jobs? I don't know. I don't know. Yes, it will be. Wait, wait, can we get that on?

I don't know. I don't know. But I don't know. But no, I think most technological transitions end up being a positive. They do eventually, but there's a great deal of pain. But in your industry, right? If we, if we call it journalism and media, apparently it's over. Right. What, what,

But you called it when it was over before, right? So you talked about digital. I didn't say over. I said, you're in trouble. You know, you know that the expression, one of my favorite movies is ghost. When Whoopi Goldberg goes, girl, you in danger. That's what I was doing. One of my favorite science fiction shows is this is the Twilight Zone to serve man. Right. If you'll remember it. And I kept going, it's a cookbook.

They want to eat you. They want to, they're the Borg. I kept using all these science fiction references. And for some reason, most media executives who are of a certain age, it's usually an older white man, just were like, don't worry, honey. I was like, honey says you're fucked. So, you know. So on the honey says type topic, right? Yeah. I want to cover AI one more time because you have been pressing it so much, right? Yes. Let me finish that. So there's the accelerationist, which I don't like that, and the decelerationist. Okay.

I don't like either of them. I don't like... I think they're ridiculous. Look, Marc Andreessen wrote this techno-opinionist thing that I've said over and over again was the stupidest piece of writing I've seen in a while. And that's saying a lot. And so it was because he was like, you're either with us for against us, you're positive towards... I know he has to do that for his little cheerleading squad and his stands. I get that. But...

He's too old for this shit. Like, come on, be honest. Like, let's, it'll be good. It'll be bad. Here's the good thing. What's, I mean, that's what Sam Altman's doing very deftly, but he's a deft person in that regard, right? It's been tough for him, but go ahead. Yes, it has. But he has been at least trying to say, walk the line. Walk the line. It's going to be hard because eventually he's going to go toward the, I want to make money side. There's no way. He already is there. That's what he's going to do.

When all of a sudden you start a company, there's a billion dollars in revenue in the first year. A lot of people change their minds, right? Really quick. It's quick. And so, but he's still actually saying it, which is interesting, but at least they're saying it. They never did. So Mark has to be like, everything's up and to the right. There's not going to be anyone who says there's a problem is an idiot. That's really, you're with, and then the whole rant about elites.

of which he is the elite of the elite, right? Right. What was the laptop class? That's him. Everything... You know, a lot of things these people say about other people are about them, 100%. He's the elite. He's the one that lives...

you know, goes from car to plane to yacht to whatever. I hate people like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't mind the plane sometimes, I would say, but I know they're carbon. I don't have a yacht. I get it, I get it. I ride commercials. So one of the, I mean, obviously I do. I can't afford that. It's crazy amounts of money. So there's those. Then the decelerations are just this idea that it's over. It's like, are cars good or bad? Yeah.

Yeah, that sounds ridiculous. Yes, right? It's just not thoughtful. So then the next question becomes, are we going to see Kara GPT? You have such a vast library of work, right? That's public, but there's also a vast library of your notes that you alluded to, right? And the emails and interviews that you've recorded, right? Would you ever consider putting those into a...

a large language model? Obviously I would. Yes, I think it would be fascinating. Because I don't think that's obvious, right? No, yes. Because it's very personal. Yes, but I would because I'd like to understand patterns. I've lost so much stuff. It's like...

It's there. There's so much, you know, one time I remember being at the doctor's office and I looked at, there was, you know, when you go to the doctor's office, all the files on the wall. And I had had an issue with low white blood cells, which I found out when I had a baby, after I had a baby. I had no idea I had it and they couldn't figure it out. I did every test in the world and he never could figure it out ever. And they still to this day. And then they diagnosed me with neutropenia, which means low white blood cells, which is not a diagnosis. It's a description, which I told the doctor who said, get out of my office.

i was like i can speak english if you need any medications cost plus drugs but there was i thank you but i didn't they couldn't even medicate it they didn't know why and so that's all i wanted them to say they didn't know but i remember looking at the vast files and they were all paper files and someone who took my blood once said you know this happens to a lot of women of your age and i was like this person's seen this over and over again but their knowledge is not getting into the knowledge base

And then I looked up at these papers. I go, the answer is in there. It's in there. They just can't find it because they can't find it. It's in there. And same thing with my notes. I remember thinking that someone's got to get all of them in there. And what I would like to see is the ability for me to own it, which is why, unfortunately, most of my, not all of them now, but most of my interviews over the many years, including the Gates Jobs one, which was a classic, many of the ones with you, not all of them now, were owned either by Rupert Murdoch now,

or Vox Media or whoever in the New York Times. And that means I don't have control over them, right? In some fashion. I would have, if I had been- But you do have your notes, right? Yes. And the other things related- Yes, but they're hard to, you know, they'll be hard to do, but definitely the emails. I'd love to input those because then you would find, like I did go through, like one of the things I did was go through interviews with Steve Jobs, for example, that I'd forgotten about. I just forgot. Right.

And at one point he named podcasting. I didn't realize he did it in an interview with Walt and I, where he goes, it's an iPod and broadcasting, podcasting. Yeah, but that had been done way before that. It had been. Yes, I know. I know you have some experience with this, with broadcast.com. But I'm just saying, but he was one of the first ones to say it loud, out loud kind of thing. And the other thing was, you know, going through emails with Elon when he says, I really don't want to be the center of attention. This was, I know, right? I know, but this was, right, but this was,

15 years ago, right? Different person. Different. And then, so you saw the evolution or, or, or stuff like, so you can see the evolution as it goes on. And that's interesting. And I wish I don't have all my emails. I have some real, I had some spectacular email arguments with everybody and,

or texts tech so it's an easy step right because i look at the bigger picture right yeah and so don't think about now think about it 75 years from yes 100 right and for your kids right yes they're gonna you know the way in my opinion not to get too far afield we're going to start taking all those things we capture about our kids and put them into a large language model yeah and

we're going to be able to, they're going to be able to ask us questions about ourselves long after we're gone. And I have to say, one of the themes of this book is death. You know, I talk about my dad's death and everything. I would have liked that to been able to be able to see him, you know, cause I don't know. I, the memories are very thin, obviously, unless you get some, unless there's some chip someday, they'll be able to extract my memories of which are long because you, as you know, having kids when at five, they know you, my dad died at five.

My kids, my four-year-old and I talk, have long discussions. And so where did those go? That would be fascinating. Incredible. Incredible. There's a book. Someone, Jan, she wrote, I interviewed her. She talked about that, where you can input your memories into the database. And the only way you get to see other people's memories is if you put input yours and allow them to be shared. That's cool.

It's an amazing book. And it's a fictional book, but it was kind of a fascinating idea. It was a Black Mirror episode of the recordings, if you remember. But the idea is, what would you want to know? I would like to know what was in my dad's head. Like, I don't know, but maybe I wouldn't. Because in that book, someone has a great memory of her dad going to a zoo one day, and then she watches his memory, which was not good. Yeah.

Candy House. It's an amazing book like that. Okay, so let's change directions again. Okay. One thing that stood out to me early in the book is that when you went back to the post, you took a job that let you work your way up to being an intern. Yes.

I've never heard that before. I thought you started the intern and worked your way up. No, I delivered mail at the Washington Post. I took any job I could because I always knew if you get in there, you know this too, if you get in there. It's a classic agent thing in Hollywood. Well, Ari Emanuel did the same thing, interestingly, and he really did. You get in there and you can see, I was very aware of the politics of the place. One thing that struck me was incredibly talented people, and I don't mean the most famous, by the way, I don't,

were very kind. Less talented people were less kind. It was really interesting, you know, and I was like, huh, that's interesting. And years later, people that I delivered mail for worked for me, which was something else. And I never told them, by the way, pick up your mail. But nobody has mail now, right? But we did. Like, I would sit there and do that. And I would, I thought I always thought that was a useful way to work your way up. And I loved being in

those jobs and then i worked my way up to the news aid and then the editorial aid and then they didn't want to give me the internship which was a big deal but that's a big deal the washington post internship was a big deal it was a big deal but they didn't want to give it to me because they'd like to give it to kids from harvard and yale and stuff like that and i was an internal person

And I just out-reported all the other kids, you know, and stuff. You know who was, Ryan Murphy was an intern with me who did Glee and really amazing director. He was so talented, but he was so mean to all the, he was really a fascinating person. So Kara Swisher working as an intern in the Washington Post. Yeah. And you visualize your future. Is this who you thought you would be? Exactly. I used to tell people in,

grammar school I'm going to be famous someday and I'm going to impact the world and I was like I really did I did I thought largely because as you know once you get in somewhere you can see pathways right and one of the things I did have was this I knew I was really good at it I

Listen, I wanted to be an architect and I was a bad architect. I went to junior year. I went to an architecture program. I think it was Harvard or one of them, a summer program. And everything I designed was ugly. Everything was terrible. And I was like, I love it so much. And I design ugly things. And it wasn't even ugly in a good way. It was ugly in a bad way. It was just not good. And I knew it. I knew it as much as I loved it. I wasn't going to be that. The minute I started writing for the college newspaper in my freshman year,

I knew I was the best. I knew it. I was like, I'm good at this. This I'm actually, and I'm not just good. I'm better than other people. You're not just a writer, right? Did you see yourself as an entrepreneur? Yes. Because that's what you've become. Yes, I have. I definitely, you know, I think going to Silicon Valley prompted me to be, that's one thing that I wish people would get through. We, Walt and I pioneered so much of what was happening now. You know, it was funny. Someone's like,

Kara, Substack is new and fresh. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? That's what we did at All Things D. Like, that's what we were doing. And so I thought that was a hard thing to do. And that to me is my, besides my kids are my greatest accomplishment. And I don't mean that. I'm just like, oh, I'm saying it. I believe it.

But that is entrepreneurial, too, being a lesbian, having kids. 20 years ago was very entrepreneurial. And being pregnant, like, also was, like, a challenge. It was a challenge to get pregnant at the time, and there was all the prejudice. But the things I have made, I feel absolutely great about. That's, like, the things I... So you're a great entrepreneur? I think I'm a...

A media entrepreneur, which is I should have taken the job at Google that I was offered or the job at Facebook or the job at AOL. Are you a great entrepreneur? I am a great entrepreneur. And why weren't your companies bigger? Because I like media. Because media is not a big business, Mark. It isn't.

I don't know. Sounds like an excuse to me. Why don't I go on Shark Tank and I'll figure it out? I just had to nail you with one thing. I'll tell you why. Cause I didn't like, I liked what other people then did with what we started, like Jessica Lesson doing the information. She put Shoot Upon Us subscriptions. I still don't think that that's big a business. And you know, even the New York Times, I say this all the time, their revenues are 2.4 billion and they're the biggest success. Is that big? It's

It's not. It's just not. Their profits are not that big. So you can't, it's just not a good business is the thing. You're the one who picked it, not me. All right, okay. I don't know what to say. I should have taken that. I just wanted to mess with you. So, okay. So real quick, TikTok. TikTok, yeah. Kill it, sell it.

I'm sure you're been talking to people. Kill Mary. No, fuck. No, no. I think you can't, you've got to be looking at buying it. Wouldn't you want to get a hold of that? Oh, I love it. Right. Well, and no, but there's just no way. Why not? I don't, I just don't think they get to that point. They are. But I think if,

I walked in, I told this to TikTok, right? Yeah. And I said, the only way that you save yourself is you create history files of all the videos you show. So, and make them available to parents of any minors and make it available to the government. It's gone too far. No, but see, but at that point,

you can reverse engineer the algorithm so we know whether there's influence from the external sources. See, I don't think anyone cares about proof now. This narrative of China spying on us is here. But the reason they said no when I talked to them about it is because you could reverse engineer the algorithm. And that's what they care about more than anything. Because even if we bought it, if I bought it,

the algorithm is still, would have to be rewritten and you can't do that. Yes, but I think that the overhang of the Chinese government is not going away with both sides. No, but that's the whole point, right? So someone, whoever buys it has to rewrite the algorithm. Right. Otherwise there's no point in buying it, right? But the whole value of TikTok is the algorithm. Right, that's correct. So that's the catch-22. You're buying something you can't buy. Oh, that's a fair point. But this bill is going to pass. Right, again, but what is the one salvation? And that is just...

complete transparency. But anyways, more importantly, by the burn book by the Keraswisher. Keraswisher. It was fun. On with Keraswisher is produced by Naeema Raza, Kristin Castro Rossell, Kateri Yoakum and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Sheena Ozaki, Mary Mathis, Kate Gallagher, Andrea Lopez-Grizzato, Ode White and Michelle Berg. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. And our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, you get to be in the next chapter of People I Like, another short chapter. If not, it's just all burns for you and possibly some singeing. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back on Monday with more.