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In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared. I found out what happened to all of them, except one. A woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars. I'm Lucy Sheriff. Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.
Hear the story on Where's Dear? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Voices for Justice is a podcast that uses adult language and discusses sensitive and potentially triggering topics, including violence, abuse, and murder.
This podcast may not be appropriate for younger audiences. All parties are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Some names have been changed or omitted per their request or for safety purposes. Listener discretion is advised. My name is Sarah Turney, and this is Voices for Justice. Today, I'm bringing you part two of my coverage of the murder of Noreen Boyle. In part one, we discussed Noreen's case all the way through the conclusion of her murder trial.
If you have not listened to part one, go back and do that before listening to this one or this episode will not make any sense. In this episode, you're going to hear directly from Collier Landry himself, Noreen's extremely brave child who not only testified against his father Jack Boyle during her murder trial, but found crucial evidence that ultimately led to his conviction.
I've had the opportunity to get to know Collier over the last few months, and it's honestly just been amazing to see how he's turned his mother's tragedy into honoring her legacy through helping others. So without any further introduction, this is my interview with Collier Landry. My name is Collier Landry. I'm a filmmaker and podcaster based in Los Angeles, California. I am probably best known to the world as
as the creator and subject of a film called A Murder in Mansfield, which is about the murder of my mother by my father when I was 11 years old. I witnessed it happen. No one believed me except for one detective. And over the course of 25 days, myself and the detective saw the case and they discovered my mother's body buried underneath my father's house in another state.
It was the largest murder trial in Ohio history. It was a media circus and fiasco. I testified against my father at trial for two days at his months-long murder trial, and he is still incarcerated to this day.
Thank you for that. And of course, I did watch the documentary, A Murder in Mansfield. And one of my first questions after watching that was, you know, right in the beginning, right in the beginning of this documentary, I see clips of people saying, you know, your story is like something out of a movie. One person even called it better than a soap opera. How does that make you feel? So that's an interesting question, actually. And I'll tell you sort of why. So
I, as the witness, as the main witness against my father, I was never able to see any of the trial. And subsequently, after going through all of this, I never watched the trial. It wasn't until I was...
At my premiere in New York City, watching the film in the theater with the audience that I saw not only myself on the witness stand, but these people's reaction. And the one woman saying, it's like a movie. It's like a soap opera happening in our town. I mean, the sound bites are crazy. And I realized like when they're panning in the dock of the people in the courtroom from the news clippings.
you know from the news stories the people standing outside the courtroom around television monitors like what a circus it was and i sort of recently came into this sort of realization probably in the last i would say year where i realized that i sort of grew up i grew up like a child actor that grows up on television that people know and all of that started to hit me once i made the film and i was traveling around the world but then i want to specifically go back to ohio
And people reaching out that knew me as a kid that knew this little boy and always wanted to know what happened to this little boy. And then they see what happened. He came back, he made a film, he has a podcast, whatever, right? It's a filmmaker. And, you know, it's like if it had been a couple of years after that, because I do remember going to the courthouse and seeing all these news trucks with the giant little towers on top of the news trucks and things and the sort of circus that was outside. But I was obviously led into a back door. I was a minor, right? But,
The trial was televised. So my testimony happening in court was happening live on television for people to watch. So again, it's like that little kid growing up in front of the camera, literally. And when I look back at it now, I have a much different reaction to it as like, what would I do if I was a parent?
What would I do if I was a guardian? What would I do in that situation? Because I don't think a camera would be allowed in a courtroom when a minor was testifying against their father for murdering their mother, let alone. But I also kind of look back on it with this, not disbelief, but this sort of, I have this very disjointed sense of reality, this real disconnection from the circus because I was driven by one thing.
justice for my mother. I wasn't blinded by anything else. I was aware what was happening, but it didn't matter. It was, I'm going to find justice for my mother. Yeah, of course. I mean, it's such a brave thing to do. I have to ask you, what did it feel like to testify against your father and to see him sentenced? I mean, I obviously can tell you that I know it's a mixed bag of feelings, but I'd love to hear it from you. I think that
Well, look, I mean, to take the story back on the morning of December 31st, 1989, when I woke up to the sound of those two loud thuds after hearing the scream, I knew what I confronted my father in the next morning. And I said, you know, where is my mother? And he said, well, mommy took a little vacation, Collier. As soon as he said that, I knew it's game on and this is a foot race and I'm going to win.
because he was like, don't call the police. Don't call. We're not going to call the police. And what really weirded me out is he says, we're not going to call the FBI. And I'm thinking, okay, we're in a small town, Ohio. Nobody, the FBI is not coming here. But I realized that like, okay, this man is guilty. He has murdered my mother or he has done something to her where she is because my mother had never left me. And I was like, okay, this is now you versus me. This is good versus evil. So I think probably the hardest part for me is after
They find my mother's body because of the house that I find the photographs of in my father's truck with his mistress and all of that. That's eventually where they dig her body up. And they yanked me out of the house because my father was going to take me on a quote unquote medical conference trip to Florida, which I would have drowned in the Gulf of Mexico, because I think at that time you realize I was talking to the police. And I think when everything really changed. So once they told me that she was dead, they found her body.
I knew that he did it. You know, I was already convinced that he had killed her, but then it was like the reassurance, right? So you're relieved in a sense because you found out the truth, but you're also so deeply saddened because yeah, your father just murdered your mother. Your mother, who's your most important person in your life is now, you know, is now gone. And then now you have this sense of, you know, okay,
You're going to lose your father too. You have this moment of overwhelming sadness that like, okay, my life is so, okay, she's dead. My life has changed forever. Right. And that's a sad thing. But then to double down on that was the fact that my family abandoned me. So my father's side of the family wanted nothing to do with me because they, because I had testified at the grand jury to secure his indictment. I was one who led investigators to, to see my father as a suspect and,
So they faulted me for his arrest and that I was putting my father in prison. My mother's side of the family who had a genuine hatred of my father beforehand that I had no idea of because he had molested my two cousins who were girls under the guise of giving them physicals. Um, a couple of years previous, he was ever charged in that case because the girls were so broken up about everything. They couldn't testify. And I totally understand. Um, but I knew nothing about this as an 11 year old child.
But that side of the family literally told me verbatim over the phone, we cannot take you in because you look like your father, which is a horrible thing to hear as a child when you are grieving the loss of your mother and both of your godparents. You know, I grew up Catholic. So both of your godparents are supposed to take care of you, want nothing to do with you for something that you have no control over, mind you. So there was that.
overwhelming sense of sadness and abandonment that was happening at that time. So I was, I was remanded to the foster care system. I was thrown in the foster care system and I was sort of isolated until the trial in a lot of ways, other than going to school because I wasn't allowed to watch television because it was all over the news. I wasn't allowed to read the papers. It was all over the paper. And so I had to keep my contact very limited to people outside of going to school because of influence over the trial and influence over my testimony. Right? So I,
When I go, you know, as I'm sitting there basically feeling alone, having lost the center of my world, which is my mother, and then no family support. And really just not a lot going on other than sitting there thinking about, okay, this is the moment. This is like the nadir of my life, right? Like, and I have a choice. There are two choices. First choice is if I don't testify against my father, what are the, I, and tell the truth.
and bring justice for my mother. I will. And my father gets off. I will, you know, he gets acquitted. I will probably go back to his custody, you know, and even if I do testify against him and he wins, you know, uh, I'm, I'm going to go back to his custody, which he's going to torture me the rest of my life, guaranteed. Or if not stick me in a hole somewhere as well. Um,
And if I do testify and he goes to prison, he is going, you know, my life is over as I know it anyways, because then I lose both parents. And then I, and then I have no family and then I don't know what's happening to me. But at that same time, I'm like, this is the right thing to do. It's justice for my mother. And I was angry and I had this, you know, there's, there's a thing that people have told me before they said, you know, people that go through extraordinary traumas and extraordinary, uh,
circumstances have a fire that burns inside of them that is almost inextinguishable. And that was me. And as scared as I was of my father, because my father was a very violent person, and as horrific as what happened, and as scared as I was to testify, I walked into that courtroom with so much confidence, and I stared him down, and he refused to look at me for two days. And that is a really powerful thing
When somebody doesn't have the courage to look you in the eye after doing what they've done and you're going, yeah, I'm going to get you. Like you're not going to get away with this. I mean, I think you understand that.
Yeah, of course I do. Of course I do. I mean, and you were so young at that time. I can't even imagine how hard it must have been for you. But, you know, to your point, it sounds like you were just doing the right thing. And I have to imagine, you know, that's something your mom taught you. Would I be correct in assuming that? Oh, absolutely. I mean, my mother raised me. It's weird. It's funny because not to always take it back to the film, but that is why I've gotten into the
the work that I've done was always to tell my story. So that's, you know, I said either it's two things. I went to music school. So either I'm going to make it as a, as a rock star and then share my story with the world and change people's lives. Or I'm going to become a filmmaker, share my story with the world and change people's lives. Like that was the two choices. Right. And I, you know, that was the drive for me, but to take it back with the film is that, you know, I, I see,
I see the impact that something like that has now. And it made me look back on my choices and say to myself, okay, if I didn't make that choice, where would I be right now? I'm 44. Where would I be? I don't think I would ever be able to look myself in the mirror. And it made me understand the impact of choices that we make in our lives by doing what I did.
And everything leading up to that moment, right? Of like, I'm going to go down swinging in life. I'm going to go out swinging in this situation because my father had a high power legal team, tons of money to do it. He was a doctor and they, you know, the odds were stacked against me in a lot of ways, even though I knew the truth. And I think my decision to do what I did is something that I will never have to regret.
because I did, I was true to myself, right? I think not a lot of people get that opportunity in life. - This episode of Voices for Justice is sponsored by Quince. I can't believe that we are rolling into fall, but we are, which means it's time to refresh your wardrobe. And luckily, Quince offers timeless and high quality pieces that will not blow your budget.
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I think that there's, I mean, I know, at least in my experience, there's a huge amount of peace I feel that comes with doing the right thing. And for me, that peace never came until I actually did it. Just sitting there thinking about whether or not to do it or what I should do. That was the hard part. But once you get the hard thing over with and you just do it, in my experience, there's so much peace there.
One hundred percent is the action that leads you through the trauma. I did a TED talk about this. You know, I said it's like we try to understand why these we try to comprehend as humans who are natural human experiencing empathy. Right. And we're trying to understand why these things happen in life and, you know, as natural empaths.
And it really is until we stop saying why and we say what now, like what leads us in the action. It's ultimately what ends up leading us through this trauma. In my opinion and in my experience is that once you make that decision, you turn that, you flip that switch. That is ultimately what starts the path of whether it's justice for a mother, for a sister, for a friend, or it's justice or it's your path to healing yourself after a traumatic event.
Or it's this, it's the action that leads you past this.
And it's the most difficult thing to do. But then you go, OK, I did that. Now I can take on the world. Now I can do this. And, you know, there are many genesis of that in my life. You know, that that circumstance having happening, the trial is just kind of where it all starts. Right. And then there's the relationship that happens afterwards, the forgiveness with my father. Then there's the, you know, the quest to make the film and tell the story. And then, you know, that just it just all continues on. You know, I haven't taken my foot off the gas since I was 11 years old.
And maybe that's a trauma response. Maybe that's a little bit of that fight or flight. You did ask earlier about my mother and one of the things and how she prepared me. And what I was saying about the film is that when people watched it, they said to me,
They said, you understand why, how you, you need to understand how you were able to do what you did. I was like, what is it? They said, because your mother raised you a certain way that when children are, when trauma happens to children, they, they're dropped off a cliff and, and how high they bounce back depends on how they're going to handle the situation. And you, by, by testifying, by being able to operate in the,
in the frontal cortex, right? And not, not your fight or flight and your, your thinking, you're using your limbic system. You're like, okay, I'm going to think my way through this. Okay. What am I going to do? Okay. He's, he's leaving. I'm going to get this police officer's card. I'm going to say, I, my mother would never leave me. I'm going to call you tomorrow. I call him from school. I do this. I start telling him, I find the pictures of the house. I start searching for clues, you know, find the pictures of the house, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? All those things. And that it was that
how my mother raised me that prepared me for that, whether, you know, unbeknownst to her, obviously, but that it, it was the way that she treated me like a little adult that because of the lack of having a partner who was, you're having a partner, a husband who was running around cheating on her, having a, you know, getting another girl pregnant, having multiple relationships with multiple women and being an abuser and abuser of that and abuser and his profession, um,
Um, you know, she didn't have that support system. So I became her support system and she was mine obviously as my mother. So it was that and how she raised me and how she treated me like a little adult, like a little partner. That is what ultimately made me resilient enough and focused enough to deal with the circumstances in front of me.
I do want to ask you, you know, what life looks like after he's sentenced. I know that you go into the foster care system. Eventually you are adopted. You know, you find an amazing family. But what does that look like for you? I mean, my God, you were just a kid. So the judge who I actually recently spoke to for my podcast, but I remember, you know, he called me into his chambers. This is after he sentenced my father.
And I remember the day that he was sentenced because I was playing tennis, which is my favorite sport. And I was at the tennis club that they let me play at for free. And I remember everyone huddled around the tennis because it was after I testified. So I could go out in the world and be like, OK, I'm going out in the world. OK, what are we going to do? I'm going to play tennis and not against a garage door.
Um, and I, uh, I remember we were in huddled around the monitor and I remember him being sentenced. And then, you know, they said, the judge wants to talk to you. I took a phone call in the office, whatever. So I went down and talked to him and he, he spoke to me about forgiveness. And he said, you know, at first I must've gotten this wrong, but he said, you know, you, you, you can't, you have to learn to forgive because you can't, you're never going to forget. Like you're never going to forget that your father murdered your mother, right?
you know, and that this happened to you, but you have to find a way to forgive. And I really took that to heart because I already knew that that's what my mother would want. And I wasn't bitter and angry. I was just sad. I was hurt. I was, I was angry at what happened. I was angry at what he did. I was angry at him for that, but I was also sad
Because not only did my life, did my mother's life get taken? Did my life get destroyed? My family's life get destroyed, but his life got destroyed too. He had no reason to do what he did. And I thought to myself, you know, I said, this is now the next, this is now the next phase of this, right? Is I need
To come to terms with this before this takes hold of me for the rest of my life and destroys whatever life I can make. And that forgiveness, that path to forgiveness was so crucial. And I was filming in the Dominican Republic like in 2010, which is the year that my father had was up for parole for the first time.
And I had actually taken the job because it was in, it started out in Ohio and I needed to go back. I needed money to go back to see my father because I wanted to get ahead of this parole thing. And I knew there was no chance he was getting paroled. I said, look, you know, um, sure. I'll say I support your release because I was ultimately looking for my father's cooperation and making a project, you know, and I knew that he wasn't going to get out. But I also had that moment with him where I said, you know, I just, I
just something snapped in my mind where after all these years, and I said, had a relationship with him in prison because I,
But our relationship is always very surface, always is. So it was like you can't talk – because he's a sociopath, right? So it's like, oh, I'll talk about girls. I'll talk about basketball. I love sports and things like that. Talk about academics. But not like – and then of course we have to talk about what he's doing and all the good things that he's doing in prison because it's all about him, right? And the relationship with the narcissist and the sociopath. It's not about anything you're going through.
or his interest that he feigns is, is because he ultimately wants you to lead back to like what he's doing. Right. So, um, but you know, he didn't, he didn't say to me he was responsible for her death. He didn't say that he, he doesn't say anything that he said in the film. He just said that he drove her to be whatever. And I was like, okay, I'm thinking to myself, whatever, dude. But I realized in that mind, in that moment, and this would be strengthened when, when you see the scene in the film, but I realized that I'm not him.
And that, and so I'm, so I'm sitting in the Dominican Republic with these guys in a sweaty hotel room. And they said, I said, how can you forgive somebody like that? Like, how can you like, like F that dude? Like, you know, he's a, you know, he's a piece of crap, you know, like, like what would he, you know, they weren't saying that obviously, but I know this program is PG. Um, but they were saying, you know, like screw him. Like he, like he deserves to be where he is. He, you, you don't ever have to talk to him again. I said, I said, hold on.
I said, you are looking at this in a way that is very short-sighted. You know, forgiveness is not about him. It doesn't exonerate him. It doesn't acknowledge anything that he's done is valid. It doesn't acknowledge anything he's saying to me is valid. It's about me. I don't care about him. I care about his feelings. I care about me. I don't want to be destroyed. I have to make this path to peace myself because I'm not going to get it from him. I'm not going to get...
You know, I'm not going to get it from the world. I'm not going to get it from my family. I'm not going to get my mother back. I'm not going to change the course of history or the course of the past. Rather, I can only change the course of my history. Right. And again, at that moment, when I was 12, this moment, I was like 32, you know, explaining all this to people is like, look, this is, you know, when.
This is where it all happens. Literally, you free yourself from those chains, that bondage of what happened to you. And that started right after hearing he was convicted, he's going to prison. It's like, okay. Which I knew was going to happen, or I hoped was going to happen, at least. And I knew that this was going to ultimately be the outcome. He would be incarcerated. But it's like, okay, this starts with me. I have to make peace with this before it destroys me. Because honestly, in a lot of ways, people tell me I'm an outlier.
Like you should be underneath a bridge, shooting heroin, getting wrecked in East LA and nobody would blame you. And the fact that you're functional, living a world, you're engaging, you're interested in life. You have this work you're doing is incredible. And I'm just like, well, it's just me. Like, I mean, that's just who I am. That's who my mom raised. I don't look at it as anything special. I just go, that's just me. Like I wasn't gonna let it take me down.
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I feel that so much, obviously. And I know exactly where you're coming from. And I want to ask you.
What made you compelled to make this documentary, A Murder in Mansfield? How does it go from being this just obviously horrific life experience that changed you forever and changed the course of your life forever to wanting to create this documentary and particularly being so involved in the documentary? How did all that come to be? Why did you choose to do it? And how did it make you feel? I know that's a lot of questions, but I just want to know more about it.
Well, so there's a very interesting, interesting thing that happens when you make a documentary with a two-time Oscar winner. And, you know, Barbara Koppel is extremely well-respected in Hollywood, you know, and people say to me, so what was it like to have Barbara Koppel want to make a documentary about you? I said, well, you're going to have to rephrase that question. You're going to have to flip the names. What was it like to want to have Barbara Koppel direct a documentary about you?
Because what happened is, is that my response to all of this, I'm an artist, right? I grew up with a very artistic background. I was into music, into the arts, drawing, painting, whatever. My mother was very supportive of that. And that's how I coped. Like I said, I went to music school. I actually dropped out two and a half years in, but I, you know, I dropped out to move to Los Angeles because I wanted to
Tell this story and I didn't know how that was going to be whether there's going to be through film Whether it's gonna be through a television series really gonna be a scripted film and not a documentary I didn't know but all I know is that I needed to tell the story that I need to learn how to be able to do that So that's why I became a filmmaker
And I think I had said earlier, you know, it was either, and there was two things. I was either going to become a rock star, become famous, tell my story and change the world, become a filmmaker, tell my story and change the world. You know, that was, that was it. Right. And I, I had many experiences that led me through it, but the, the, the first where this really started, not only because growing up, I was very obsessed with the fact that people and we as a society,
Look at violent crime in one way. We go, okay, the bad guy goes to prison. The victim is dead. The bad guy goes to prison. The state gets its restitution. The gavel hits. We say next. We never examine the consequences of violence. We never examine its impact on ancillary victims, on the communities that it takes place in.
the ripple effect. And now that's become very fashionable, as you know, and for good reason, obviously. But back then it wasn't. And I grew up with that. And I thought, I'm going to change this. I'm going to change this narrative any way that I can do that. Right. And so I saw a film in a theater out in Northridge, California in 1999 called American History X.
I walked out of that theater with my friend at the time and we were just blown away. It's a fantastic piece of American cinema, by the way. Edward Norton, Beverly D'Angelo, Elliot Gould, Eddie Furlong. It's about a neo-Nazi who goes to prison and reforms his ways and blah, blah, blah. Directed by Tony Kaye, who's an absolute maniac, but a genius of a filmmaker. And produced by a gentleman named John Morrissey. And I remember walking out of that film and I said,
Whoever made that film understands the consequences of violence. I said, my buddy, I said, BC, I said, I want whoever did that film to help me tell my story. Flash forward eight years, nine years later, sitting in my little Hollywood bungalow, my girlfriend at the time comes in and she goes, Hey, this, um, this guy contacted me on my space. He's shooting a coffee table book.
He wants to photograph me, but he's also a movie producer. And I was like, oh, what movies he's done. She starts rattling off all these movies, booty call havoc, um, uh, kingdom calm, blah, blah, blah. And then she gets to American history and I said, American history X. And she said, yeah, I said, let's meet this guy. So I became friends with the movie's producer, only producer, John Morrissey. And about two years after that,
He wanted, I had started getting into filmmaking and I was learning the craft. I was learning lighting and working for free on, on big union sets just for food. And this is like learning going my version of film school. Right. And I was learning how to shoot and he had approached me about doing a project that I thought was really ridiculous. But I said, you know, John, I said this, I don't want to do this project with you, but this is what I want to do with you.
And I walked over to my shelf and I grabbed a blue binder, which is sitting right behind me right now. And it was filled with newspaper clippings that someone gave me when I turned, like I was in my mid twenties, I gave it to my adoptive parents. And it is all the newspaper articles from when like my mother went missing to like through the trial. And then after the trial and then my father's appeals and all this stuff, it's all in this book. And I said, I want to do, you did American history X. I want to do
A film about the concert or a film, or it was actually the time it was a docu series that I wanted to do. I said, I want to do a docu series about the consequences of violence. And I said, the best news is that I own the rights to the pilot. Here's my life. Cause I, when I came to one of the other reasons besides getting into the entertainment industry that I moved to Los Angeles is I also wanted to get away from
from everyone. I did not want my story to leave me in a room. I wanted to go where nobody knew who the hell I was. And there wasn't a narrative other than who I am. Oh, he's a great guy. Oh, he's a nice guy. Oh, he's a cute guy. Oh, he's a talented guy. Like I wanted to be known for those things.
independent of what my story was. So little people knew about my story other than Collier is from Ohio. His dad killed his mom and that's, and he, he, he was adopted. Like that was like the story that pretty much everybody sort of knew, but they didn't really know any other details. And I, you know, he reads the book and he calls me the next day and he shots a few expletives. He's like, I like, this is your life. Are you kidding me?
I said, no. And then he goes, I think I know somebody who would be interested in this. She's won two Academy Awards for documentaries. And I just did a film with her. Her name is Barbara Koppel. And that was the moment that all of it started. And that was like 2009. And then I slowly started piecing it all together from there.
And, you know, obviously one of the biggest things is getting into a prison to film. And that is obviously the, you know, the really amazing sort of finale, if you will, of the documentary. But, you know, I did things like where I, my father had been transferred to a prison called Marion Correctional Institution, which to its credit is the most progressive prison in North America.
where most prisons have, you know, a handful of programs outside of religious programs for inmates. This has about 70. In fact, Piper Kerman, who is Orange is New Black is based on, she actually teaches writing to inmates there, or at least used to. So I, um, I, uh, there was a guy there who was the head of the Ohio State, um, department for like the audio visual. And he was the head of the department inside the prison that would, um,
that would produce content for the state of Ohio. So I would actually go and I met him. We became friends, Facebook friends, of course. And I would go into the prison and I would, when I would come back to Ohio and I would teach the other prisoner inmates things about how to edit films and filmmaking and commercials. I do web design and graphic design. I would teach them all these things and I help them get cameras for the studio and the audio recording thing. And I just helped them sort of streamline and just donated my time.
you know because i wanted to shoot there and um it actually worked out not in our favor all these things that i teed up and of course my father's enthusiasm because enthusiasm because he was very
He thought that I was going to make a film to help him get out of prison. So it's all him as a narcissist, as a sociopath. So when, when putting all the film together, that was the big issues. Are we going to be able to film the prison? I was like, look guys, I've teed this up. You guys need to call. And like, you know, I've teed everything up. I've got permission from the warden. We need to solidify this with, you know,
production company and then they waited too long and then when they called that was the day the warden had been promoted and they had a new warden come in who didn't know me and they were like well no you're not going to fill the prison and then we were kind of you know stuck and i said i'm going to go back to ohio and sort this out so i had to back channel through the governor's office i had to make friends with the former warden i had to you know i still would call it the best pitch meeting in my life to the head of the department of corrections who said no
um, on why this would be a really good piece for us to do. And they, you know, I, you know, I said, look, it's like the prodigal son returns to the, to the, um, you know, to confront his father. And then they have a big come to Jesus moment. His father admits his guilt and all this. Now, what I didn't tell them is that I know my father's associate path and the likelihood that he's ever going to admit his guilt for anything is, is like, you know, finding a needle in a haystack. I mean, you've better odds of winning the power ball, you know,
Um, so yeah, it all unfolds in this whole sort of, you know, this whole scene in the end where we see that, you know, and the, the, the other side of all this, like, that's just like how it happened, but my drive for doing all of this is.
getting involved in the film business, making to tell this, you know, telling the story is because at the fundamental core of everything, I wanted to know from my father, why did you do this? Why did you murder my mother? Because I can never, I had never gotten that answer from him. I wanted him to come clean and I wanted to know why he did it. I wanted to understand why he caused all of this destruction. And I,
That was my driving force. Not only because I wanted to tell my story, I wanted to set out, you know, I set out to honor my mother's story, to tell her story, to so her death wouldn't be in vain. I also wanted to speak to that kid who is me, foster care, 12 years old, abandoned by his entire family, literally staring at the nadir of his life into the abyss, if you will, and saying, I was that kid.
And guess what, man, you're going to make it. It's going to be okay. It's going to suck. You're going to come out bumps and bruises scrapes, maybe a couple of sprains, but you're going to survive and I'm living proof. So that was like this, you know, again, this, this inextinguishable fire that is burning inside of me and it motivated all my decisions and, and you know,
But also to get that resolution that I was sort of hell bent that I always needed. Like, I want to really understand why. And then as you see in the film, that isn't, I don't get that, but I end up getting a much better answer. I end up getting a much better resolution to all of it that I didn't know was possible.
Yeah. I mean, that end scene hit me for a lot of reasons, obviously about me, but you know, I did want to ask, like, are you satisfied with that answer? So, so it's really funny because, you know, again, this is actually something that I was just discussing with Amanda Knox and Tara Newell. And it was like, and you're the same way too, is, you know,
Amanda had just had a baby recently. And she was talking about like, you know how people say you don't know what it's like to be a parent until you're a parent? It's like, yes. It's the same thing with survivors. And I said, yeah, it's if you know, you know, right? And survivors and people who have been through this sort of true crime life or these ordeals, these horrific events, like you don't know. It's very easy to like sit back and judge, make comments, good or bad, right? Yeah.
you know, be disparaging, be supportive, whatever your sort of ilk is. Um, but I think, uh, you know, for me, one of the things is that everybody was like, you know, Oh man, you're like, you didn't get your answer. That's gotta be so frustrating. I'm like, no, no, no. I did get my answer. And I was talking to the psychologist in the film, Dr. Dennis Marikis after the film. And I said to him, I said, what do you think would have happened?
If my father had just come clean and just said, this is why I did it. I did it because she was, I was angry at her. I was having, I had an impregnated girlfriend and I just wanted to get rid of her and stick her on the floor of the basement. And, um, and, uh, you know, we came to the conclusion that I would have more questions. I wouldn't have the peace that I have because as you see in the film, when I finally say to him, I believe that you believe that. And that's my answer. I mean it.
I realized in that moment, cameras rolling, that hour in the prison, I realized at that very moment that even though half of that man's blood courses my veins, I am his son. We could not be further apart. I am nothing like him. And I don't have to worry about that. And I have my answer.
I'll never get the why because there is no why it doesn't matter. What matters is the here and now that is my answer. So, yeah, I was really satisfied with it because I really, I mean, it was also like this amazing, I was sort of flabbergasted. Like you call you, you did all this.
For that, like all this, and this is what it is, but, but it's like, you know, everybody always says it's about the journey, not about the destination. It's so true. It's so true. Everything leading up to that. It was so, it was such an amazing feeling, even though it freaked me out at the time, it was such an amazing feeling to like, look back on that and have that moment of just like, wow, I did that.
And I have way more than I ever could have imagined. It's, you know, it's like, it reminded me of like, it's Star Wars. When Obi-Wan Kenobi says to Darth Vader, if you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you will ever imagine. Or than you could ever possibly imagine. Not to murder the movie, for those who are fans. But, you know, it's like that.
And it just, it's, it's like an indescribable moment of what was going on and what it feels like to just, I mean, you're talking at that point, you know, 26, 27 years of my life spent to get to that moment. It's a long time.
I do understand. I understand how it was satisfying because you know your father in a sick, twisted way, of course, but you know him. And when he gives you answers like that, I mean, at least in my opinion, when my father would try to manipulate me and gaslight me and give me answers that I felt were a semblance of the truth as opposed to the full truth, I felt like I could see right through him. And I did feel like I got my answers despite him not saying
stating them explicitly. So I totally get it. This is Jessica Knoll, host of the new series Back in Crime.
If you're a follower of true crime, you're probably familiar with some of the most shocking stories from our history. Horrific tragedies like the Columbine Massacre. And notorious criminals like cult leader Charles Manson.
In a scene described by one investigator as reminiscent of a weird religious rite, five persons, including actress Sharon Tate, were found dead at the home of Miss Tate and her husband, screen director Roman Poliansky. But what if we were to turn back the hands of time and relive these events as they unfolded? Follow along each week as we take a fresh look at crimes from the past. Back in Crime is available now.
Let's get into what you're up to now. You know, you mentioned your podcast, Moving Past Murder. I know that you just interviewed the judge in your mother's case. So what's going on with the podcast? What's going on with that interview? So I actually, so yeah, I reconnected with him when I just went back to Ohio last week. And so that interview is going to be coming up the next couple of weeks. My podcast essentially starts out with my journey.
And to, you know, what happened to me as a child. And then I interview people from the case. I do talk about other true crime cases under my sort of initially in the first few episodes about other relating it back to my experience, like how I handle it, how I would relate to this, what this reminds me of.
But now I get into more of it's I'm reading the letters. I'm interviewing people like yourself. You're going to be on the podcast. I'm interviewing, you know, Tara Newell. And we've actually started another podcast called Survivor Squad where survivors are telling their stories.
And it, you know, but I talked to people who work in true crime and I talk about people's obsession of true crime. And then I share my own personal stories. And like I said, I get to, you know, I've, I've interviewed the judge from the case and he just, he even told me stuff that I didn't even know because I haven't ever watched the trial and things that I learned about my father. Like my father had a, had a, had a person that was procuring girlfriends for him while he was a doctor.
and lining up these people and how much, I mean, some of this stuff. And then, you know, in some of my episodes, I discovered like a tape recording of my father had done five years after he was incarcerated, like after he'd been incarcerated, almost to the day of my mother's murder. And he gave this interview on this very right wing sort of borderline. I don't know if QAnon was around back then, but like this very like far right religious thing.
talk show and i actually played the tape and listened to him spout all these conspiracy theories because he was trying to play on to their current conspiracy theories to gain traction for an appeal and then i interviewed them about it because i contacted them and we reached out and said uh you know hey um
I have this thing. Would you talk to me? Because I saw that they have another radio show. So my producer reached out to them and said, hey, would you talk to him? And so I interviewed them, this team that met my father and spoke to him and gave him airtime for his crazy wackadoo conspiracy theories. Like my mother was involved in a baby selling ring and Chinese gold smuggling. And people grab at straws when they're guilty. That's for sure.
You can never underestimate the predictability of stupidity or people who have a fundamental lack of integrity. Oh, a thousand percent. I mean, the narcissist is incapable of admitting their faults in my experience. I'm not a doctor. I'm not even close to it, but that's just my experience. But we have real world experience that doctors don't get, sadly. Yeah.
Well, an entire childhood with a narcissist. Yeah. I'd argue is, is pretty decent experience. Exactly. Precisely. Yeah. And it's a, but yeah, so, you know, I have the podcast moving past murder. I have, you know, the film that I made a murder of Mansfield, but really, you know, the podcast is the next Genesis of that to share more of my story, to talk to others who are doing good work and to, um,
Talk about the human element of true crime, but it's also about like trauma recovery and my story. And I'm getting more into that or wellness and how you can heal yourself and and things that I do that are part of my routine. One of my favorite episodes I do is with an author's name is Dr. Angel Iscovich. He wrote a book called The Art of Routine.
I talk about like how routine is so important for trauma survivors because as someone who's, you know, who has had to deal with fight or flight or is always in this sort of state of hyper awareness, like being in a routine keeps you focused. It keeps you out of that, you know, because it's exhausting to live like that. So I talk about trauma recovery a lot too, because it's my personal journey and I'm just evolving as a podcast. I've only done 53 episodes now or 52 episodes.
So I'm just evolving and finding that voice. But it's all a continuation of spreading my mission of just you can make it through these unspeakable circumstances and come out the other side pretty much okay. And to honor my mother and her legacy and just to move forward sharing empowering stories with my audience.
I love that. And of course, I'm always here to support you in any way I can. I know that... Well, getting into podcasting is scary. You know what I mean? And yeah, you're right. 50 episodes or so is still relatively new, even though it feels like a lifetime of work. I feel like I've been podcasting for approximately 35 years. It's been three. So I totally get that. But
You know, before we head out of this interview, I, you know, of course, want to ask, where can people find you? Where can they find both of your podcasts? How can we best support you?
So all of my, um, all of my social media is at call your Landry. So you can find me on Tik TOK at call your Landry, Instagram at call your Landry. My website, call your Landry.com, uh, has my podcast, my YouTube channel. My podcast is called moving past murder. You can find on Apple, iTunes, you know, uh, Spotify, audible, um,
Stitcher, wherever you find your podcasts and, um, and all my socials again, call your Landry. Um, my other podcasts I've started with Tara Newell is called survivor squad. We are going to probably release our first episode within the next month. Um, so maybe by the time this episode comes out, it'll be almost out and, um, yeah, but, uh, moving past murder survivor squad, call your Landry.com. And, um, that's where you can find me.
And Tik TOK, of course, the good old, you know, Tik TOK very well. What's a Tik TOK. Yeah. I'll have all that linked below too, so that you guys won't have to try to dig for it. Um,
But yeah, I just want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm very excited to interview for you. I love that we're doing this swap. And I just love that we met each other and that we know each other because, I mean, my gosh, no two crimes are alike. But what you and I have gone through, what I mean, what you went through and what I'm about to go through are so similar that I'm just truly grateful to have you in my life. And I'm sure I'll be asking all sorts of questions about trial stuff pretty soon.
Well, and also, you know, that is right there at the, you know, podcast and everything. That's great. The human connection of just meeting someone else who has been there and walked through the fire. Like that's the real value. And like, absolutely. 100% here for you on that, Sarah. Absolutely. Oh, thank you. We'll end on that nice gushy note. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Voices for Justice is hosted and produced by me, Sarah Turney, and is a Voices for Justice media original. If you love what we do here, please don't forget to follow, rate, and review the show in your podcast player. It's an easy and free way to help us and help more people find these cases in need of justice. And for even more content, check out my other podcast, Disappearances, only on Spotify.