Kimberly Corban
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This is Jessica Knoll, host of the new series Back in Crime. If you're a follower of true crime, you're probably familiar with some of the most shocking stories from our history. Horrific tragedies like the Columbine Massacre. He turned the gun straight at us and shot. Oh my God, the window went out. And the kid standing there with me, I think he got hit. Okay. Oh God. And notorious criminals like cult leader Charles Manson.

In a scene described by one investigator as reminiscent of a weird religious rite, five persons, including actress Sharon Tate, were found dead at the home of Miss Tate and her husband, screen director Roman Poliansky. But what if we were to turn back the hands of time and relive these events as they unfolded? Follow along each week as we take a fresh look at crimes from the past. Back in Crime is available now.

Voices for Justice is a podcast that uses adult language and discusses sensitive and potentially triggering topics, including violence, abuse, and murder. This podcast may not be appropriate for younger audiences. All parties are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Some names have been changed or omitted per their request or for safety purposes. Listener discretion is advised. My name is Sarah Turney and this is Voices for Justice.

Today, I'm talking with survivor Kimberly Corbin. In 2006, Kim was 20 and attending the University of Northern Colorado when a man broke into her off-campus apartment, held her captive for two hours, and repeatedly assaulted her. After he left, she immediately called 911 and preserved as much evidence as she could until police arrived. She would later be the key witness at her attacker's trial where he was found guilty.

Following this, Kim made it her mission to help others. She released her name to the media in hopes of helping just one person. Today, she's helped more than she can count. But this is Kim's story, so let's hear it from her. Here is my conversation with the incredible Kimberly Corbin. Kim, thank you so much for joining me today. I would love if you could just tell the audience a little bit about yourself.

Well, I am honored to be here. I'm so excited for what you've built on this podcast and throughout the community and to be able to address your listeners is such a privilege today. So my name is Kimberly Corbin, grew up in Greeley, Colorado. It's about an hour north of Denver. And at the age of 20 years old, a stranger broke into my apartment, held me captive for two hours and sexually assaulted me.

I grew up kind of in a bubble, had no interaction with the criminal justice system whatsoever, super involved in sports, in student council, like anything that you could think of in high school. And I decided to stay in my hometown and go to the University of Northern Colorado to

And I loved it, but I finally got involved in something the spring of my freshman year by rushing for a sorority. And I joined the Alpha Fee's, loved it, made my very best friends there. And so we lived in the house sophomore year. And for our junior year, we looked to move off campus.

We ended up on the west side of Greeley, which was more where I had grown up and gone to school. And we split up into three and three, so two ground floor apartments. Again, not thinking anything of it. I felt like Greeley was a fairly safe place. You would hear about, you know, crimes occurring, but they were never really that big of a deal. And besides, it's never going to happen to me.

And on the early morning hours of May 12th in 2006, that stranger broke in. He came upon me sleeping in my bed, covered my face with a shirt and woke me up from sleep. And I just remember not being able to breathe. My breath was really hot on my face and I was laying on my stomach and I tried to push myself up and I was immediately pushed back down into my pillow. And I just hear this low, taunting voice in my ear saying, shut up.

Shut up, don't say anything. And the blood just rushes from my body and I knew immediately that something was wrong. I endured two hours of being held captive by this man the entire time thinking this was how I was going to die. It is well over half of sexual assault victims believe they will be killed throughout the act of that crime. And I is absolutely one of them.

He had the audacity to break into my home, to wake me from a sleep and to rape me. Why wouldn't he? Why wouldn't he kill me? So I was thinking, what was the last thing I said to my parents, to my brother, to my friends? Who was going to find me? Is anybody going to find me? And I had like this almost out of body experience where I am watching what's happening from above. And I always thought that I would be able to scream, fight back.

All the things that, you know, you're taught to do, but I couldn't. I didn't have my sense of sight. I didn't know where my other roommates were. And that being the case, I froze. And, you know, early on, I would say I allowed the assault to happen. That's not at all what it was. I froze in a trauma response situation.

And he carried out the actions of this assault. Now, he kept my face covered most of the time. There were two times where I lied and told him that I was claustrophobic and he moved it just enough that I was able to see from about mid-bridge of his nose up to about mid-calf down. And as all of these things are happening, I knew at that moment, no kidding, I wasn't going to get revenge by sitting here. It was going to be in court. So I am...

I am being actively assaulted thinking about seeing him in a courtroom. Now, I couldn't figure out who it was. It seemed like a stranger, but he knew a lot about me, about my roommates, about my boyfriend, where I worked. And so I'm thinking, okay, this is obviously someone who knows us in some capacity. And once he completed his assault...

I took a different tact and started talking to him. And he just kept talking. And so I'm watching the sun rise through my blinds about a two-inch crack. And that's how I was able to judge the amount of time that had passed.

But I had to be careful not to raise my voice. And I couldn't ask too intrusive of questions or he would get really upset. But I kept him talking and I'm just logging every single piece of information away as much as I can. Because again, I know exactly what I'm going to do when this is done. But I have to make him think that, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed. My family's coming in for my brother's graduation in a couple of weeks. This would just crush them. I'm not going to tell anyone. I...

You know, I feel so much shame. My boyfriend would break up with me. Anything that I could think of to make him, to pacify him, if nothing else. When he decided he was going to leave, he told me that this was going to ruin his day. You know, he felt really bad, but he was going to come back for me. He's going to find me again and do something for me. And then I would know that it's him.

And then he asked for a drink of water. Knowing that I had just meticulously cleaned the night before, I told him the wrong cabinet to go to in the kitchen, hoping that maybe he'd leave fingerprints. He got up off of my bed, kind of stood there for a second, and then sat on the side again. He leaned down, kissed the top of my head, and left. And I hear the cup in the sink and the water on, and then the front door open and close. And it was at that moment, at 6.56 in the morning.

that I feel like everything just changed. I immediately call 911. My cell phone had been sitting on my bookcase headboard right above where I had been assaulted. I'm watching out the blinds, hoping he might run by and I'll get another glance of him. But as all of this is happening,

I'm getting up to make sure he's not still in the apartment. I run to the front door, bolt the lock with just using the edge of my acrylic fingernails so that if there were fingerprints, I'm not disturbing him. I had run along the side of the carpeting because it had just been cleaned and his foot impressions were still on the carpet all the way across the hall into my roommate's room where she had been sleeping the entire time.

And you can hear on my 911 call me screaming, what's her address? What's her address? Because I'm giving the cross streets, but I can't remember. We've only been in this apartment for a week. And so my roommate and I, she was actually home during the entire assault. And because it was quiet, because I couldn't scream and fight back, she didn't hear anything until those cupboard doors were opening and closing. And we finally got a piece of mail read off what...

what our correct address was. And law enforcement was there within 90 seconds. But from the time that I made that first phone call to when they actually arrived, it had been 16 minutes because our phones kept dropping the call and we were confusing addresses. And by then he was long gone. That whole day is definitely a whirl. I go into this on my social media channels and different places. I've retold my story many times, but I detail minute by minute what happened that day because I think

So often we hear these stories and we're thinking just about the crime itself. This awful thing that can be splashed across headlines and then you move on to whatever the next story is.

But for me, that day had just begun the moment he left. I'm calling 911. I peed in a cup to make sure that any evidence would be left. There was semen, so I knew DNA, on the top of my thigh, and I made sure to put on the baggiest sweats that I possibly could. I stood on a towel to wait for patrol officers to get there. I was in a sane examination for three hours with a nurse who was the most incredible human and did an incredible job examining

helping me move from victim to survivor for one of the first times in that day. But there's all these things that lasted from that 6.56 morning call to when I finally was able to finish my interview at the police station and go home with my parents to my bed and my room that I had lived in since kindergarten and fall asleep.

And it had been over 12 hours since that call was made. That's the part we don't hear about often, but is entirely traumatic, not just for me,

But all of those secondary victims, my parents, my brother, my roommates, my boyfriend, the girls in the other apartment, everyone that's starting to hear about what happened that's coming in and giving their fingerprints and their buckle swabs and any statements that they can think of of who this could possibly be, all of those people are experiencing vicarious trauma alongside me. My two roommates that I lived with are immediately victims of burglary.

But we don't think about that because it's, you know, it's the lesser crime. Well, somebody was sexually assaulted in the apartment. So the burglar isn't as big of a deal, right? But their safety was violated too. And I make a big point of that day because it is so important for people to understand that those wheels that are set in motion are entirely traumatic regardless of whether or not you report. That first day is really a jumping point for everything that happened therein, which I can come back to. Yeah.

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Just go to the App Store or Google Play Store and download the free Ibotta app to start earning cash back and use code CRIME. That's I-B-O-T-T-A in the Google Play Store or App Store. And use code CRIME. No, I mean, I think it's incredibly important. I think unless you go through it or know someone who did, it's...

It's really hard to know kind of what the next steps are. I think, you know, especially just as a woman, you just get afraid to report and you get nervous and you don't know what's going to happen. And you see things on TV and you think, is this going to be an even more awful experience? You know, what's the lesser of two evils? But I mean, I'm just astounded by your story. I mean, when I listened to that 911 call, I immediately was in tears. You could just

hear the fear and you whispering. And it's just, oh, I mean, you had such a good... I mean, and I don't want to blame anybody for not doing what you did, but your reaction to it was just so calculated, if you will. You were like, this is exactly how I'm going to get my justice. And you went forward with it. And I think it's just absolutely astounding and amazing. And

I could sit here all day and tell you how you're incredible. But I know that that's not the end of this story, of course. Right. Well, and I think the big point to point out here is that I didn't know that that was going to be my reaction. And frankly...

It's not normal. I mean, normal in a sense of what you see on TV or what most people would go through in a traumatic response. But for me, it was like some switch was flipped in my brain where all these years of competing in sports and just I need to execute on X, Y, Z and get these things done sort of kicked into gear and I'm

by nature, I'll take care of other people before myself. And so it made it easier to have, I have this goal in mind where I need to get all of the information out and to authorities. Like I know that much, at least. I've seen that much SVU or law and order or whatever it might be. And to know that I have to do that, I need to give them the information. I need to get all of the evidence because I knew that my body was a walking crime scene. I need to make sure that that's all processed. And I need to make sure that I can mitigate

the trauma to my family as much as possible. That's where my mind was. And so I really wasn't focusing on myself or my fears or what my body was going through. And in the small moments during that day that I did focus on it, it was like you could feel, I could feel it slipping. And if I give into it and really feel those feelings, I knew that I was going to lose my drive, my motivation to continue to get all that information out.

There was a moment after I had given my interview in an audio video recorded room at the police station and I went into the bathroom with my mom. I didn't want to be alone, obviously. And I went in to use the restroom and I came out and I'm washing my hands and I look up into the mirror and it's the same reflection that I've seen for 20 years. And yet somehow it was different. And I started crying.

and pushed my back up against the tiles in that government building. And I'm crying to my mom as I slouched down on the floor and just said, Mommy, I don't want to be this girl. You know what that girl is. You know what a victim is. You have this stereotype in your mind of what victims are. And then suddenly you're on yourself and you never thought you'd be there. And I didn't want to be that girl, but I was. And learning...

How to take back that power and how to find myself again and be an even better version is not something that happened in the weeks, the year, the moments afterwards. It took many, many years to feel like I'm finally at a place where I would be able to pick that girl up off of that tile floor and help make her whole again. But it wasn't instantaneous. Yeah. Wow. You're such a powerful speaker, Kim. I can't even...

Yeah.

You know, you went through the process and you really did pick yourself back up. And, you know, I've seen it. You know, I've known you for a while now, I think just about over a year, certainly not your whole life. But, you know, it's been incredible to see you, you know, advocate as a survivor and talk about, you know, that transition from feeling like a victim to feeling like a survivor. Yeah.

And I know that, you know, you've talked a lot about how the justice system helped you do that and about how lucky you were that this guy was even prosecuted. So I would love to dive into that. Well, and let's talk about the statistics here, because I feel like not representing those accurately would be a big disservice to justice.

all the different populations. In case it wasn't abundantly clear, I am a middle-class white woman, middle-income, educated, like all of the privileges besides being a dude. And I was believed every single step of the way. And I am incredibly thankful for that. And it wasn't until afterwards and getting into this world of advocacy that I realized that's not always the case.

It's actually getting better. But very, very often you have groups of people who are marginalized already are further marginalized by this crime, who don't want to come forward and report. And it's understandable because as I tell you about all the things that happened beyond just that day, keep in mind, what if that was a person of color?

What if it was somebody with a disability or somebody from the LGBTQ community that maybe isn't out yet? How are they going to go through this system and lean on the support that they desperately need when they don't even feel like they can be comfortable with the people that are supposed to be supporting them? I am incredibly fortunate to have an amazing family, friends, and community that rallied around me and

If nothing else, I want that to be a testament to what community can do, to when people start by believing you and are with you every step of the way, even when you are having panic attacks and PTSD and you're binge drinking and you're doing all of the things that are normal trauma responses that maybe they don't understand, but they're still standing behind you and helping you back up when you can't do that yourself.

All of those pieces go into me being able, me having the privilege to make that choice to move from victim to survivor. And I would not be able to do that alone. Yes, there's no one who is in charge of my healing but me. But I was also afforded those opportunities because so many people filled in the gaps when I couldn't do that myself.

So if you're not familiar with my story, it does have a happy ending. We can start there. So it's not all doom and gloom. It was about, actually, it was three weeks to the day from the time that my assault occurred to when the suspect was arrested.

Two rookie officers reported to a call at a local, it was like a half a mile away and it's another apartment complex. The manager had said that there's a man in the gymnasium area. He's taking pictures of women that are out by the pool without their knowledge. So they respond. They're like, holy crap, this guy sounds like the guy we've been hearing about in briefings for the last three weeks. They take him in.

They call me. I come down and I'm like, I can't do a photo lineup or something. I told you I only saw from, you know, half of his face. But the detective had an idea. He let me listen to his voice. That voice is seared into my mind like a brand. I will never get rid of that voice. I could pick it out of anywhere. And the minute I heard that voice come over my headphones, I

I knew they had the right guy. I didn't need to wait for DNA. I didn't need to wait for a confession or anything else. I was positive that they had the right person. And I was right, thankfully. But that's a lot of what they had to go on at that point. He was in that interview for seven and a half hours. Wouldn't shut up. Kept talking much like he did the morning of my assault. And throughout the course of that, he never said that he didn't do it. But he also never said that he did.

And so we have this complete stranger who was booked into the Weld County Jail, held on a million dollar bond. And we start through the court process.

Now, this process I heard moved slow. I had no clue, no clue at all. We went in for our first meeting with the district attorney's office, and it was myself, my parents, and the detective who was handling the case. Now, this detective was great. He had a sarcastic, deadpan sense of humor, much like mine. And so we really hit it off and had been, I mean, in talks for constantly over those previous three weeks when we were trying to track down who this could possibly be.

So we go in and it's more of like a, I want to say a rapport building meeting, but they lay out what you're going to do. What are the terms used? What does this criminal justice system actually look like? I don't remember most of that meeting, frankly. My mom took a notebook. She took really diligent notes. My dad would ask a few questions, but I was checked out. I have no idea. But there came a point where the chief deputy DA said,

Brings up the idea of like, okay, some cases then go to a plea agreement. And that thought like went into my ears, rocked my core. And as he would say, I looked up and shot lasers and fire and brimstone through him. And I said, absolutely not. He cut me no slack while I was being raped. Why are we going to cut him slack just because he was caught? Now, pause, because I know how important plea deals are.

Sometimes going to court and doing an actual jury trial is not the best outcome. It's really, really hard on victims. So sometimes the plea offers that can be made are saving you a lot of further trauma. They're not a loss by any means. But for me in my mind at that point, that's what I thought. Now, statistically, again, me even being in that room is a rarity.

I know that there are super dark numbers that are surrounding sex assaults, but when you talk about the number of assaults that occur, not the number of victims, the number of actual assaults, you are looking at less, less than one in, I think it's, or it's like 20%, less than 20% are going to be reported to authorities. Even less than that are going to be able to find a suspect.

Less than that are going to be able to arrest that suspect. And even less are going to be able to bring that case to a prosecutor and have them file charges. Now, remember again, he didn't confess. I have a voice identification and I also identified him based off of his shoes. But that was it at that point.

And the DAs had to take a chance on those positive identifications and the groundwork that the police department had laid and the things that they had found at his house, one of which being a picture of him without bottoms on and his face is covered by a black shirt while he is masturbating in the same fashion that he assaulted me. So we have all these circumstantial things, but they had to take a chance. And really, they started by believing me.

and filed that case, which does not happen nearly as often as we wish that it could for all of the tons and tons of assaults that take place. That criminal justice process from there was full of continuances and hearings and dispos and like all kinds of words that I had never heard before. But here's the coolest thing that still gets talked about to this day. That first arraignment hearing, I knew that I needed to be there and it's a date that I circled and read on my calendar.

And it happened pretty quickly. I wasn't the only victim, right? There are more victims to this. My parents are going to be there to support me. My brother is going to come. My two roommates who are the burglary victims and their families. I was also part of a sorority, a very close-knit one. It's not like those, the huge SEC kind. Like, no, this was a house of 60 girls, very close in a fairly small Greek community.

And when we showed up to court that very first day, walking down the tile floor, you have girls in two and three inch stilettos that it sounded like thunder. And that courtroom was standing room only every single time. Not just that time, every single time. And it made it so that I not only felt supported, but the look of support from the community to hold this man accountable because he was picking out his next victim was

was overwhelming. And that is something that stuck out to the judge and eventually caught the, you know, the media's attention as well. Small break of what I'm going through in the court process. Let's talk about mental health.

Sponsor pie. Right? I mean, it's an important subject, especially when you're going through the court process and dealing with it all. So absolutely, I would love to. So we were in a time in 2006 where mental health was not openly discussed. Therapy was either for rich people or crazy people. We're both.

And that was the extent of it. We had headlines and pictures of paparazzi shots of Britney Spears shaving her head and going after paparazzi with an umbrella. When actually behind the scenes, you're experiencing a mental health crisis play out on a very large stage, right? But we didn't have those conversations. Well, here I am, 20. I've taken Advil in my life. I've never been to therapy.

I don't do feelings. Oh, no, I'm feeling. And so I find myself in a therapist's office in that very first week that thankfully took victim's compensation. And I sat on that couch for three months and I'm like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I don't know why it's coming out all squeaky. I'm fine. And it took that long to break through and be like, mm.

Okay, well, maybe I'm having some problems with my boyfriend and kind of dipping your toe in the water to talk about it. And something I constantly see, you know, therapy is not for everyone. Group therapy, not at all. Something that I found helpful. But I did like different types of individual therapy. It's just...

It's finding the pair of shoes that fit. They could look really good on somebody else, but until you find some that are comfortable that you can walk on and feel good to you, it's not going to work. So this therapist was a perfect example of shoes that didn't fit. I'm trying to do talk therapy and work through this, but meanwhile, I'm experiencing extreme PTSD, which morphed into depression, which morphed into having...

These panic attacks at the drop of a hat. And then come April, so of the following year, my panic attacks progressed into something called psychogenic non-epileptic seizures related to PTSD.

These are not epileptic seizures in the sense that, you know, you would see somebody who has the possibility of swallowing their tongue, but they do manifest in a way that looks like seizures. My brain is so overloaded with trauma, it shuts down and my body experiences the assault again because I'm not allowing myself to feel and process the extreme trauma that my body's harboring.

And therefore, it's going to act it out on its own. And I'm not going to get to pick the space in which I do that. It would be three to ten of them a day. They could last anywhere from three minutes to three hours. I had to drop out of school again. I had to go live at my parents' house, sleep in between them like the five-year-old that's scared of the monster under her bed. And all of my independence was taken away again. It was extremely difficult.

to have that coupled with the fact that we've got a jury trial coming up and melding those two together. I'm sitting there one night looking at the chipped polish on my toenails because I can't even bend down to paint them. And I'm thinking, why did this have to happen to me? You know, why, why me? And it wasn't a pity type of way. It was, I don't see a purpose in this. And that was when I shifted my mindset and I thought, okay,

If I can help just one person not have to experience what I did, then this is going to be worth it.

And I started going to a different therapist. I started using EMDR, which for those of you who are not familiar, I love it. And I have a resources page on my website where I list out these things. But if you can find a therapist who is also certified in eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, it can be extremely helpful for trauma victims, especially when you don't have the words to put with it yet.

All of those things combined, I also started working with the DA's office community relations director. And she put me in touch with our hometown reporter that covered crimes in courts. Her name was Rebecca. She was wonderful. And she sat with me multiple times prior to trial to get my side of the story.

It wasn't just the black and white facts that are on an affidavit or that are splashed across the paper. Because every time I was covered in the paper, I was used to being the volleyball, track, soccer, basketball star that, oh, I got my picture on the front page of the sports section. Yay. Like, here's my track results. Awesome. Click those papers out. Well, now it's college woman, victim. Here's all the things about this guy. And it felt devoid of any humanity whatsoever.

And so sitting there and working with her and talking through what I had experienced was not only cathartic for me, but I was doing it with a purpose. I didn't care if people remembered my name or my face. I wanted them to remember my story. When we finally got to trial, it was in June of the following year, and it was a five-day jury trial. I was up on the stand for three hours, endured a grueling cross-examination,

and had to sit and talk about the worst day of my life all while being about 10 feet away from the man who did it to me. He was a total stranger. He was a 4.0 criminal justice major at our neighboring college. He did not have a criminal record to that point. There was a string of peeping Tom incidents and a few break-ins that immediately stopped once he had been apprehended, but he was a total stranger.

And I sat there and told all of those jury members and a judge and a courtroom that was standing room only about the worst things that had ever happened to me and details that I should never have to disclose. No human should ever have to speak about those things. At the end of the trial, it was Friday. The prosecution rested, gave their closing statements. The defense gave their closing statements and the jury broke.

They came back an hour and a half later and convicted Ronnie Jim Piros of sex assault and burglary. And the relief that I felt sitting in that courtroom, I didn't realize I had tied all of my sense of healing together.

and justice to the outcome of that case. Because for all that time, and for that moments of being assaulted that are seared in my memory, you also have that intertwined with a sense of, I call it revenge. I don't know that that's, let's say justice. I think that's fair. Yeah, in my mind, that's what it was. It was, I need, this is revenge. And

All of that came just bursting out. And I think it was the first time I've ever cried tears of joy in my life. There was this sense of just the weight being lifted and knowing not just that, A, I won, because that's what it felt like. All the other people that put this case together all said, I won. I beat you.

You did not get the best of me. You may have ravaged my sense of safety and my body and my ability to go to school or drive or even sleep in my own bed, but you didn't win this. I did. And that reporter came up to me and she's like, okay, Kim, are you sure you want to do this? I was like, absolutely.

And so the next day, the paper had a front page article with my story and the impacts that it had on this community that I loved and grew up in. And being able to represent not just myself, but everyone else that this impacted was such a rewarding experience. They ran another op-ed on that Wednesday, and that's really how...

I don't even want to call it a career, but just my life as an outspoken victim started. I spoke in college classrooms that I also attended for school. I trained the peer advocates at our university women's center.

I spoke at different prosecutor conferences and victims' compensation on the things that had just happened and how they were helpful or what they might be able to change. And it really got me thinking more about, okay, there's different policies, I guess, that could change. But overall, the outcome of what happened to me happens in less than 2.3% of all cases. The fact that he is convicted and sitting in a jail cell is such a rarity.

And even with my slam dunk of a case, it was still up in the air because it isn't necessarily the laws. It's the jury pool. Oh, yeah. We have a jury pool, which is indicative of a culture.

that is not ready to address sex assault, that is not ready to talk about the absolute depravity that people in our room, in our space, they share spaces with us. We could pass them at a gas station or in a restaurant and we cannot wrap our minds around the fact that they could do horrible, horrible things to another human. But even worse is we don't always believe those humans when they come forward and say, I was abused. This happened to me.

I am forever changed because of this person's actions. And because we don't want to think that it could happen to us, we say, are you sure? Are you sure that's what happened? Well, why were you there? Because that's something that I could control, right? I can say, well, I would never be at a party. I would never take that drink from somebody. So I'm safe from what happened to her. But we're not. I was the epitome of the person that, it'll never happen to me. And it did.

And the minute that we start to embrace the fact that this does happen with more frequency than we will ever be comfortable with, but that it could happen to us too, we can start to shift that narrative and that belief to be in favor of the victims and survivors who do come forward, regardless of how long it takes, regardless of the circumstances, regardless of if they started a sexual encounter consenting and halfway through chose not to.

We can still say, then it wasn't your choice. The minute you revoke consent, it becomes a crime. And while outwardly it can look like something that we consent to, that we do, that we enjoy, it's not without that vital piece. And consent goes far beyond a bedroom or a crime even. It's present in our everyday lives and that is the way that we need to live our lives as well. Do we have permission, consent from the people around us that we are impacting?

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Oh, absolutely. Well, and I just want to take a small step back to the jury pool and the trial because...

What I'm slowly learning that was, I mean, and I'm probably naive, but it was a big shock to me to realize that, you know, part of the defense team, you know, part of their job is really to discredit victims, you know, victims in the state of the law, right? Because in a court case, you're listed as a victim. I'm listed as a victim. In my sister's case, I imagine you were also listed as a victim. And I think that's what's so hard for me to wrap my head around, too, is you go into court and you're like, okay, you know, we got the arrest. Right.

justice is gonna prevail, it's all about the truth and evidence and whatever else now. But victims just get, I mean, shredded to pieces in court. They will attack the smallest thing about you and just try to discredit everything. So I would love to know how you dealt with that because I know that that does deter so many people from coming forward. They would rather just not go through the trial because it's so painful.

And I don't want to sit here and say that it's not painful. You know, of course, I haven't gone to trial yet, but already it's excruciating. So I can't even imagine what it was like for you. The justice system is not set up for victims, even now. I mean, it wasn't in 2006 when I started this. It's not now. I would love for it to be someday. But that shift doesn't just come from legislation. It is that jury box. It is our culture in general. Because

They are willing to believe those things that a defense attorney would use to discredit the victims because they don't want to see themselves where we are. They don't want to put themselves in our shoes. They don't want to be able to think that could be me there. That could happen. And it is far easier to engage in cognitive dissonance and completely remove yourself from these situations and these thought lines than

By holding on to stereotypes or bigotry, misogyny, like you name it, all of these things that have been instilled in us and our culture from birth, which, you know, plenty of people speak out about, but that is a hard, hard thing to unlearn. And when you are presented with facts that are not in their entirety, like let's make that very clear. There were plenty of things that

that could not be, they weren't admissible in court because of some obscure law or rules of evidence or whatever it might be. There's plenty that has to be held back. And so a jury is only seeing the case that the prosecution has lobbied for and motioned for and tried to get as much in there without violating anything such that it would bring it back on an appeal. Because I can't personally think of anything worse than

Having that day and that feeling of the weight being lifted and amazingness and then just to see, well, the Supreme Court has overturned that opinion. Oh, yeah. Defendants, after convicted, have three different levels that they can go through for appeals, which, again, not something I ever would have thought of.

They had pre-sentencing investigations for sexually based crimes. And I know every state has some form of that. A lot of times, even on TV, if you think through this, you'll go straight to sentencing. You see that a lot in cases where there is homicide cases.

But sometimes, especially in like my case, the pre-sentencing investigation that happens between the time that he's convicted and when the judge brings him back to give him a sentence where I was able as a victim to speak at that hearing about where the impact and not necessarily the facts of the case happens.

They are doing all kinds of tests. The Sex Offender Management Board has a whole protocol that they go through. They are looking for all these different indicators of how they should classify him in prison and what is the likelihood that he will re-offend. Now, for my offender, super high.

When I talked to some of the professionals that were involved in this, the likelihood of him not only escalating to being a serial rapist, but having those be serial-based homicides was very high. He would have progressed into sexually-based homicides until either he was caught or killed. And the fact that...

As far as I knew at that point, I was the first one that stopped him. I couldn't wrap my brain around it. Like, oh, well, well, I didn't. Yeah. It was just me. And like, you don't, you don't, you don't think through that. I really didn't let that sink in until weeks later where I'm like, oh shit, he, he could have killed me. I was sitting at my kitchen table with my mom and it's like this realization out of nowhere that how am I alive?

And it's like these waves that just continuously come over you where you need some separation, I think, and some levity, to be frank, to say, OK, this really could have been worse. And it's not a what if game, but.

Somehow I'm still here and I'm going to make the most of it as much as I possibly can. Yeah. Well, I think people don't realize that when these terrible things happen to you, it's not as if you process all these things in the moment. It'll be weeks, months, years later when you're like you think back on something, you're like, oh, my gosh.

That's not at all, you know, how I remembered it. I can't believe I didn't think about this right away. There's like this aftershock effect. I know that's how it is for me anyway, but yeah, it's just, I think, you know, every case is different, but I do think that there are some themes, you know what I mean? Obviously, like trauma has been heavily studied. We know exactly, not exactly, but we know a lot of how it works, right?

There's trauma memory issues, PTSD. You obviously experienced a ton of that. So I really appreciate you sharing. I mean, I know it's not easy. And I just want to say that, again, that you're amazing. And I mean, you absolutely prevented another person from going through this. I mean, that's just incredible, Kim. Well, and I think that I never want to solely take credit for that. It is my...

It's completely on you, which is completely unfair to be responsible for your own healing. But at the same time, I wouldn't have been able to do those things if we weren't having conversations. My friends, my sisters in that moment, we were having conversations about how trauma was manifesting because it's like, Kim, you went out to Cactus Canyon and you drank all the drinks and

And while blackout culture is normal in college, are you actually okay? And it wasn't. We aren't having the conversations about, okay, I'm... We started having to have the conversations about, I'm sleeping through class. I'm sleeping, period, for like 16 to 20 hours a day. And so we are confronted with...

All these different manifestations of trauma that none of us have experienced. And so we are all going through this mental health conversation together. And there wasn't a guidebook at that time. There wasn't the ability to pan out and say, all right, I'm going to check social media. And like friend of a friend did this. And this was help. There was nothing like that. It was us having to have the tough conversations together and sticking together through it. Those girls to this day are still my very best friends.

We have an absolutely unhinged group text that is never silent. We see each other at least every other month. We're spread out all over Colorado now, but we have made it a point to stay in each other's lives. And I think a big piece of that was we had something that bonded us for life. And it wasn't just the six of us. It's extended to that entire sorority class.

The entire sorority at that time, the Greek life community. I mean, there's a lot of people that'll be like, oh, I lived in the apartments at that time or I was at UNC or I lived in Greeley. Like I get that constantly on like my social media stuff. Yeah, it made an impact and it affected this really small community. But I think one of the coolest things to come of this was that I did this with the intention of helping at least one person. That was it. That's all that mattered to me.

And I didn't know it for many years after, but a woman who was 78 years old had a case that was similar going through the DA's office at that time. And she was uncooperative, didn't want to tell her friends or family, didn't want to testify. And she called her victim advocate that morning and she said, you know, I read the paper this weekend and if Kim can do it, so can I. And she put a serial rapist away for the rest of his life later that fall.

And I didn't know that for so long, but just to have that payoff, for lack of a better term, that quickly, it impacts people. When we raise our voices and we share our stories in a very authentic way without the idea that we need to do it for ourselves.

clout or reviews or clicks or fame or wealth or all of those things, there is something really powerful about that. There's something that people will connect with and understand and find a home in the things that you say because they have not had it before.

And I constantly want to come back to the point that I do not speak for all victims. I simply have a microphone right now. And that if my voice is helping you find your own, that's all that matters. You don't have to think the same way that I do. I just want to lend my voice to those who haven't found theirs yet. And I was incredibly blessed to have people that did that for me, too.

One of which, you know, being the district attorney that prosecuted my case. I mean, he and that entire trial team went to bat and represented me and my family and my community that I had been part of since I was verbal. And they did an outstanding job.

And you'd think that, oh, yay, we ride off into the sunset and that was a great job. Well done. End of story. Okay, the next week they were on to another sex assault trial. And they keep doing that over and over and over again. I just, I can't say enough good things about the way the justice system worked for me. But there are plenty of places where it doesn't work that way.

And it shouldn't fall on victims to constantly have to stand up to legislators or to elected professionals or to the people who are put in places that are meant to help them. We shouldn't have to advocate for ourselves, but there are enough people out there that should do it for us. And the more we can raise our voices and get educated about the things that we can do and that we can have control over, the better off we'll be at shaping that future jury pool.

We want this culture to understand the trauma that is inflicted upon us in and of itself is a crime. And you have to believe us when we speak up about this. Because it's been something, my attacker was sentenced to 24 years to life in the Department of Corrections for sex assault and burglary. But I, as a survivor, was sentenced to life. I will never get away from this. It will always be part of me. And yes, I am choosing how that happens.

is a part of me, but it will always be there. And it's my responsibility, I feel, to stand up for other people so that they can stand up for themselves. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, like so many people I've encountered, your path of advocacy is just so natural. And I think that's what a lot of people don't understand about people like me and you. And of course, our stories are very different. I think everybody's story is different. It's like so hard to compare, right? But a

I think, you know, sometimes the public perception of people like us, you know, advocates that are really close to true crime that have been, you know, firsthand affected by true crime, which is, you know, what I always say. I think they, you know, often the perception is, you know, oh, they just want fame or money and, you know, they're just milking this for all it's worth and whatever.

People don't understand, you know, the passion that comes with trauma like this. You know what I mean? Like any type of trauma, really, I mean, it can be stirred by so many different events, right? It could be a car accident that spurs you to wanting to, you know, advocate to change traffic laws, whatever it might be. There are events in people's lives that are so...

Show-stopping is definitely the worst word I could use right now, but it's the only thing coming to mind. It just stops you dead in your tracks, right? And it just changes your whole life. And it's like, how can you not get inspired by that? And of course, I'm not here to blame people who don't. I understand it happens to some people and they never want to think about it again. They just want to walk away. And I respect that too. But I think oftentimes it becomes just this passion and this mission. And you can see it radiate throughout you.

And I also want to say that I think

things really change when you get some semblance of justice. You know what I mean? I know for me, like you said, there was a huge weight taken off your shoulders when you got the guilty conviction. For me, when my dad was arrested, I felt the same way. It's like all of a sudden, again, your life has changed and you kind of see what can happen. It's like the fight changes. Does that make sense? Yeah. Oh, totally. Well, it's like you've

You're running this marathon and you're holding all these different weights. And suddenly someone comes up alongside of you at the same speed and offers to carry one. And it's one of the biggest ones. And yeah, you're still running. But suddenly you also feel like, all right, there's not only, it's not just me doing this anymore. And somebody is going to help me and carry this piece that I cannot do myself for another step. Yeah.

And it is, it's changing because, yeah, it's still grueling. Still might puke at mile 16.

I love your sports references. I'm so bad with sports, but I'm right there with you. No, I ran one marathon. Never again. Worst, worst ever. I have all the sports analogies. You're fine. Oh, God. Yeah. And it's so funny because I'm a recovering athlete. I'm 100% not an athlete anymore, but I used to be. I play one on TV. Oh, that's too funny. Yeah.

But the mentality and the mindset is still very, very present. And that's just what works for me. For other people, you know, it can be things centered around breath work or grounding exercises or meditation. Some people it's completely centered in art. There are so many different expressions of how we learn things.

not only learn to overcome trauma or to deal with it, but to live with it. So many people, I always hear the get over it. Like, why didn't you just, okay, you're still talking about this? It's in 16 years. Like, why aren't you just over it? We don't get over it. We are given this roommate who's messy and awful and we don't want to live with.

But we've got to set up some house rules and we've got to make sure that there is a chore schedule and we have to make sure that our spaces are maintained and that there are boundaries in place or else this roommate is going to run rough shot over us. But they are never moving out. We have to decide what do we need to live comfortably with it. Yeah. And so we don't just we don't just get over it. We learn to live with it.

Yeah, I mean, I would argue that few people really fully get over major circumstances in their lives, you know, like, and I have nothing rooted in like psychology here. I have nothing to really back me up. But you know, my my philosophy, I've had so many crazy and bad things happen to me. And my philosophy has always been like,

take your time and be sad about it and grieve and do what you need to do as long as you're not harming yourself. And then at a certain point, you have to decide what you want to do. Do you want to live in that space where you were still grieving it and being sad and sleeping as much as you need to? Or do you want to formulate some type of plan to move on with your life? And that doesn't mean forgetting and never talking about it again. For me, that turned into

active grieving is what I get. I have no roots in psychology. I just like made up this term. It could be a term that's out there, but I like that term. Yeah. I always called it active grieving. It made me feel so much better to actually fight for the outcome I was looking for instead of just being sad about it.

So I think that's what's always helped me. And that's what still pushes me today. You know, you mentioned people, you know, being inspired by your story. And like, that's what keeps me going is, you know, the messages from people saying, hey, I got my sister out of an abusive situation, you know, in our father's household. I got this person like that. That's the stuff that keeps me going. The family's reaching out. It's the

the potential for good in the world to, you know, not that it rights are wrong, but if you can put more good into the world than the bad that's happened to you, that feels like some type of wonderful, wonderful life balance for me. And that's, I mean, that's just what keeps me going. I want to put like so much good into the world that all the bad that's happened to me is almost erased, if you will.

Yeah. Well, and it's, it is something that every time I get one of those messages or someone without fail will approach me after one of my keynotes, speaking events, whatever it might be, and disclose what happened to them. I cheer them on for the fact that you were able to just put words to that.

There was probably a time in your life where you wouldn't have been able to do that or weren't ready to. And you've given yourself the grace and the ability to take control in this moment. Even if it doesn't happen again for many years, in this moment, you are completely where you need to be and doing what you need to be. If you are here listening to this podcast right now, you have done everything right to this point because you're still here. I love that. And that is something to be celebrated. Yeah.

And it doesn't matter if I know or I don't know if my story is inspiring someone else to speak up or to advocate for themselves or to change their major halfway through junior year and go to psychology because student loans aren't real money. Oh, let's, by the way, go to grad school now for criminal justice and take a few victory laps. I'm not telling you you have to do all those things. Merely being in the moment and feeling like you're right where you need to be is enough.

I made the choice to center my education and later my career around helping others because of the profound impact that those people who helped me had on my life and my ability to

to even know that I could become a survivor in my own mind. And that's not every day. There are still days where I feel like a victim, where brushing my teeth is the biggest thing that I'm going to do that day. And that's okay. But I wanted to be one of those people that could impact the lives of those who have one date circled on their calendar and their world revolves around that. And I wanted to be the one

to help them say yes, and there are going to be more days after that that you will get to meet yourself again and become an even better version. So I went and I became a victim advocate that was certified and worked for the police department for almost three years. I was a secondary responder and then I became primary victim advocate responder. So I was introduced to all different kinds of crimes. It was very eye-opening.

They aren't all like mine was. And I think that that was probably one of the better things that I did was learning about the different ways that people are reacting to these crimes. I went into homes that I would never would have before. I saw things that I would never have experienced unless I was going after that helping profession. None of them, none of the victims that I ever helped helped.

knew what happened to me, but for one, and it was specifically contacted. That's a different story. But I was able to empathize with them without them knowing. I didn't need to put my trauma, my grief, whatever process I was in, into the worst day of their lives. You know, I'm helping people through without that component.

And so when I continued on to my master's program and then started working in the district attorney's office, I was actually working with offenders. And it was low-level offenders, but many of them were domestic violence victims who then the offender knows and calls and gets them arrested. And so the work that I was able to do on that front especially was rewarding. That was all I needed. And I think that is the passion and the drive that you're talking about. We

We don't do it for the money. Let me tell you, government officials, we're not paid much. Yeah. When I worked in foster care. Yeah, I can tell you that. This is not a money thing. I also think that's part of why we burn out so quickly, too, because our life and our passion and our souls are so completely enmeshed in the work that we are doing, which sadly a paycheck is not.

He's tied to, but it has made the work that I do on the advocacy side and speaking that much more important. For the first 10 years of speaking publicly, I never took a dime, not one. I wanted there to be a way for me to give back to all the people that helped me.

And there was a mentor of mine was sitting with me at dinner and she's like, how much are you charging for your speeches? And I was like, I mean, if they can just get me there. She's like, OK, that stops today. Good. Yeah. You're an expert in your field. You have the education and the background and the presence. Like you if you value your time, other other people will, too.

And while it felt really, really weird, at the same time, I'm like, no, I want to make this my profession. I want to be able to be completely thrown in to the advocacy world and to be able to make a living wage to help my family, to set us up for success, but more importantly, to continue giving other victims hope that they too can become survivors. And that has been the most rewarding part for me.

Because, again, I don't care if people remember my name or face. If they're remembering my story and getting something out of it, that's all I've ever wanted out of this. I mean, a couple of the things I do want to hit on. When we talk about minor crimes, minor has a big quote around it. It's like the secondary crimes that occur in the shadow of whatever the bigger one is. It has been, what, 16 years now? I forget. I don't know. It's been a while. Yeah.

This happened and it was literally just this weekend. I called a friend who is an expert. She's on the board for Inviolence Against Women. And she is not only a survivor of stalking, but she's an expert in the field and like has done an incredible amount of research, education around this and research.

I called her. I'm like, Anna, I'm having a weird moment. I think I'm a stalking victim. And she's like, yeah, I mean, I don't know that much about your story. It's like, I just never wanted to take the light away from people who are doing the work and stalking because I know some incredible advocates who have been through this. And she's like, yeah, but think about it. And I didn't know this until much later, which is what I think my issue was.

I was stalked for a week prior to him breaking in to our apartment. What if I would have known and called out that behavior? Would it have been taken seriously? Would it have been taken as seriously as when I called and I had been sexually assaulted?

Because these are the types of crimes that are progressions, right? Like it's a continuum. You're not just going to stalk and that's where it stops. You're going to stalk and also be involved in domestic violence, sexual assault. I was asked when the Me Too movement came about.

full steam ahead in 2017 if I was pissed that people that were, quote, just harassed or groped were glomming on to this movement. I was like, are you kidding me? Absolutely not. Because the people that are engaged in those behaviors, it's not just those. And yes, those women or those men are

are just as much of a victim as I am. Just because it's something different doesn't mean that it's not trauma that they're going to experience after the fact. If they are willing to call those behaviors out, if we're willing to talk about harassment or groping or, you know, just the random creeper at a bar who gets told no when a girl doesn't want to dance with him so he follows her home, stalks her for a week, breaks into her apartment, holds her captive for two hours and rapes her. Right?

If we're addressing those behaviors that we deem minor or smaller first, we're going to get to a point where we are preventing the larger crimes from happening. It is a continuum. It all deserves our attention. And so when Anna was talking to me about stalking, I was like, I just...

I never thought about it because I didn't know that it was happening at the time, but it doesn't make it any less valid. So I would say for those people out there who don't think that they've been through a trauma with a capital T or a sex assault or whatever it might be that you deem a quote big crime in your head, all those small ones still really, really matter. And you have to be willing to grant yourself grace and go through the same steps that Sarah and I are.

Because that trauma is still going to live in your body whether you acknowledge it or not. Another piece that I didn't hit on and I'd love to briefly talk about is that I was sentenced to life as a survivor. And I do mean that it is still ongoing because actually I was supposed to have a parole hearing today for my offender. He has been to now, you've been to two parole hearings.

That process is completely different. I have not been a huge fan and actually sparked me to start advocating for more change on a state level through our legislators and really bringing to light some of the things that are happening behind the scenes to lessen the impact on offenders. And victim voices just aren't there. We don't have that seat at the table because we shouldn't have to go down and give up our time and

And talk about these horrendous stories to have people listen to us. But we do. Constantly. Because you bet your butt that you've got the offenders and their families down there advocating for them at all times. They got nothing else to do. And so finding out about some of these changes that were coming down the line, getting involved in that legislative process again,

It can seem scary from the outside, but I would encourage you if you have a heart for this, if you feel like the statute of limitations isn't fair because quite frankly, there shouldn't be one. Get involved. There's plenty of groups in every single state. Start local. If you're wondering, where can I start by speaking out or sharing my story or getting involved in change? That's a great place to go.

Your local crisis center is going to need help. They need donations. They need outreach on social media. They need people to step up to the plate so that survivors don't have to every time. And so don't let it be something that's really overwhelming. Call your representatives. That's what they're there for. They may not think so, but it's really fun to put them in their place and remind them, I'm the one that's voting for you. You work for me. And here is how your constituents work.

and this entire community is being impacted, what can we do to change it? Be willing to get your hands dirty and talk about the things that need to be talked about. So often, especially when it comes to any kind of legislation surrounding crime victimization, I really, really caution you to go anywhere that is a political line, um,

As often as you can, it has nothing to do with politics. I will promise you that my rapist did not ask who I voted for before he assaulted me. I can't imagine most do. It can happen to anyone, regardless of where you fall, what your background is, your demographics, whatever it might be.

It can happen to anyone. And so everyone needs to start speaking up and changing these laws because it is really, really collective. So that part, I mean, I could go on and on about literally any of these pieces. But I'd say that those are the big things. This isn't just you guys heard my story. Here's what happened the day of. Here's what happened throughout court. And la-di-da off into the sunset. It's a continuous fight and it doesn't stop.

And the more support that we can have during that fight, the better, because it keeps our voices strong. In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared. I found out what happened to all of them, except one. A woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars. I'm Lucy Sheriff. Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that

Everyone has a different version of events. Hear the story on Where's Dear? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

I couldn't agree more. And I know that you want to end with a very strong call to action, or at least kind of near end. We still have a few things to talk about, so I'm going to keep it quick. But I did want to mention on, and you don't have to, but it's hard for me to say I love any aspect of your story, but... I know where you're going and it's okay to say it. Thank you. You know exactly where I'm going. And I think the audience will really enjoy this part. Yeah.

you ended up kind of finding love throughout your, your, this whole process. Um, it's your story. I want you to tell it, but it's, it's like the happiest ending for, you know, obviously a really horrific situation. Um, and I just, I love it. And I would love if you told it. Yes. Uh, we always get the question about, is that ethical? It's like, yes, homies, 10 years later, it's fine. Don't worry about it. 10 years later. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Um,

When I spoke about people being my voice before I had my own, one of those people was the chief deputy district attorney. His name's Michael Rourke. And the way that he treated me as a person, as a human, not just a victim in another case, changed my entire outlook about how we are represented in the system itself. And then it was all the things afterwards that humanized him.

It was everything from he and the team taking our entire sorority and all the people there to support us into the jury assembly room after every single hearing and just answering questions because there was no better way to support me than by educating all the people who are going to be there for me on the random Tuesday night when I am having a meltdown. And

He'd answer questions for us. And this is so great because you want all of your prosecutors and law enforcement and forensic nurses and advocates to do this. And so many fall short for so many different types of reasons. But he didn't. And I truly believe that that is what allowed me to go from victim to survivor in those early days. I was always drawn to him for just his presence and his

His ability to advocate on behalf of people who had been victimized. But it wasn't until 10 years later, after I had gone on to school, to being an advocate, to doing all of these speeches across the country, some of which we even did together, we present on my case. And it's like not the 100-level keynote speech that I'll typically do. It's like a 400-level teach speech.

to teach law enforcement, prosecutors, how to talk about and advocate and work with victims throughout this process. And also I'm able to give my input, not just as a victim, but as somebody who is educated in this and worked on the other side of the system. And Mike has 25 years of prosecution experience and like he is regarded as one of the very best trial attorneys and how lucky am I to have had him. And it wasn't until that point 10 years later when both of us are

single and working together in the most wonderful ways possible that we're like, oh, you've been here all along. And he's now my husband. I love it. I know. When we started dating, it was very intentionally, but I will never live a day of my life again where my partner doesn't know the worst things that have happened to me that I don't have to verbalize.

And that he's somebody who's not only sticks with me, but fights for me, fights for me, fights for our family, goes to work still every single day and fights on behalf of the victims and their families in this community. And for us to be able to do this type of work together has just, I never in a million years imagined.

would have told you that that's how it would end up if you'd have told 20 year old me oh you're gonna marry him one day I'd be like what just kidding I'm late for my shift at Hooters bye but that is I mean I I have never met another couple or heard of a story like ours

And it's not something that I'm going to say, oh, everybody should do this. You should hear our pillow talk. It is messed up, man. But the fact that he can come home from work and trauma dump sometimes if he needs to, while I am able to talk about things that I've done with advocacy and just I love his mind and his heart and all the things that we've been through together. But

I never would have guessed that that's how we would meet. And when people ask us, if it's like, oh, yeah, we met at work, let's just leave it there. Yeah, yeah, I could see that. Oh, and then if you really just go after it and like, oh, well, you prosecuted my rape case. You're like, you got two hours? Yeah, yeah, I get it. But the work that we get to do together is some of the most rewarding and I could not ask for.

That's true love. That's true love when you pick on each other like that. Yes, totally. But he's now the elected district attorney for Weld County. And so he's going to be the first one to make fun of him as well.

We've got that going for us, which is nice, but it's been wild, but really fun. And yeah, I just, I love knowing that both of us in different capacities are still able to impact people in a positive way.

Yeah, you're good people. You have a nice family. I'm really happy that you got, not that it's an ending, right? But kind of that outcome. It's really cool. It's really unique. And I think it's so sweet. You guys can definitely understand each other in a way that you might not be able to otherwise. And like you said, it's somebody who just knows. You don't have to sit there and explain what happened. And there's a special bond there. Yeah. I mean, all along, I thought I was writing this story.

This story of being the hero of my own circumstances. And really, it was a love story that was being written all along. Oh, Kim. Okay. Okay.

I know that you have a very strong call to action that you believe in a lot, that you've been working on a ton. You have a lot of videos. You have a lot of, I mean, this has been a huge part of your work. So I'd love for you to leave the listener with a call to action. Yes. One of the first organizations that I got involved in after my case was done, it's called In Violence Against Women International.

This is the first out-of-state conference that I got to go to and just being surrounded with so many people who were truly doing the work to be better for survivors was astounding. I was lucky enough to be brought on in 2020 as a consultant to help with their social media. But In Violence Against Women International does education and gosh, just so, so many things for your first responders, your

Your prosecutors, your sane nurses, anybody involved in the forensics, the advocates, anyone who is helping victims get back on their feet and making sure that their offenders are held accountable, EVA does work for. And I just so support everything about their mission. But 11 years ago, they started a program called Start By Believing.

And Start By Believing is super simple. It's accessible for everyone. So you can create a Start By Believing campaign in your own community. Costs nothing. And what they do is educate the public, much like the conversations that we had at the beginning of this interview, right? It's teaching the layperson or a first responder how to react when someone discloses abuse. So if I said, I think I was just assaulted. Right?

You wouldn't say, are you sure? Or, yeah, I don't think that's what he meant by that. It's, okay, I hear you. I see you. I believe you. Give them those simple words to speak to, to talk about. To say, I believe you to a survivor is one of the most important things that you will ever do. And study after study shows that those initial outcries, those initial disclosures, they're

are typically to friends and family, and they statistically have a more negative impact than your first responders do. If you are to respond to them with, I believe you, they are far more likely, over half more likely to seek crisis services or report. And you know what that does?

It holds that offender accountable. It ups those statistics that I was talking about that are so dire and can feel just overwhelming. You are giving that survivor a shot at making sure that they aren't one of those statistics, that they are increasing that needle. And it's something that all of us can do. And it is so simple. And if you don't think that you know a survivor, I promise you're wrong. They may just not have told you.

And so being able to be a part of that organization, to speak at those conferences now, I mean, that's actually, Mike and I do these presentations, right? We've been selected as the closing plenary session for EVOWI in Chicago this April. So 2023. Highly suggest, if you're able, come to the conference. It is the coolest thing. I know people go to like

true crime sort of stuff, screw that. Go and listen to the actual experts on this stuff. It is fascinating and there's so much to learn. It's open to the public, but there's so many things that you can get out of a conference like that. So Mike and I are really looking forward to doing that and to talking about

What the impact was on me just being believed. Everything from there, it's rooted in being believed from the outset. Now, that's not asking you not to have questions or to be judge, jury, executioner. It's simply saying, I believe you. And then everything else will start falling in place. You'll get those people to their resources eventually.

And it's that simple. So there is their website at startbybelieving.org or you can go on EVOWI International. So they're linked and I'll have that on all of my resources as well. And if you can go on and take the pledge, it would be awesome to have a huge showing of your listeners, I think. So the pledge is completely free. It just, I pledge to believe when somebody discloses to me that they have been victimized.

And it'll give you a spot to say where you heard about it. So I would love for your listeners to go on, take that pledge and say Voices for Justice, because that's where it starts. All those resources are completely free and listed on there. Explore the site, see what you can learn. It's an amazing program that is just born of that same passion and drive that you and I have talked about so much. And I am just honored to be a part of that organization in any capacity.

Well, I love that. Yeah. And I would love this. So you guys go on the website, make the pledge, take a screenshot or something, send it to send it or tag me and Kim on Instagram to tag both of us. Yeah. And if you guys do that, I'll reach out and I'll say I don't have a lot to give. Right. But I'll send you guys some stickers. You know, send you some places for justice stickers, some swag.

But yeah, I love that. I would love for people to get involved. So you guys, please go on the website. Please check that out. Yeah, we've got all of the social media stuff for Eva and Start By Believing as well. So follow along there. You'll see my mug on there plenty because I'll do a lot of cross-posting and different outreach things for them. But they do incredible work all the time, all behind the scenes. And I would just love more organizations supported like that.

Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Kimberly Corbin. If you love this episode or just want to hear directly from survivors themselves, I have some very exciting news for you. Kim has partnered with friend of the show Kara Robinson-Chamberlain for a brand new podcast. It's called Survivor's Guide to True Crime. Kara and Kim interview various survivors from every walk of life to talk about trauma, healing, using dark humor to cope, and more.

And the best part is, you guys, the trailer is available right now. So check out Survivor's Guide to True Crime wherever you get your podcasts. But as always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.

Voices for Justice is hosted and produced by me, Sarah Turney, and is a Voices for Justice media original. If you love what we do here, please don't forget to follow, rate, and review the show in your podcast player. It's an easy and free way to help us and help more people find these cases in need of justice.

You can also support what we do here over on Patreon at patreon.com slash voices for justice. And for even more content, as if you don't hear my voice enough, check out my other podcast, Disappearances, only on Spotify.