Forensic Psychology Part 2
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Voices for Justice is a podcast that uses adult language and discusses sensitive and potentially triggering topics, including violence, abuse, and murder. This podcast may not be appropriate for younger audiences. All parties are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Some names have been changed or omitted per their request or for safety purposes. Listener discretion is advised. My name is Sarah Turney, and this is Voices for Justice.

Last time on Voices for Justice, you heard the first part of my conversation with forensic psychologists Dr. Shiloh and Dr. Scott from the LA Not So Confidential podcast. We discussed a lot. So if you haven't heard part one, stop here and go listen to that first. And we have a lot more to talk about. So let's jump right back into part two.

There are a few topics that I want to touch on, too, and I don't know if it fits here in the conversation or if you'd rather address it later. But two things I really wanted to talk about as well was the fact that, you know, our father was giving us pretty, pretty heavy prescription medication at young ages and prescriptions.

you know, as far as I can tell throughout our entire lives. And then I also want to touch on, you know, the contracts and see where that fits in the grand scheme of things. You know, of course, our father made her sign many contracts and he stated that he learned this approach in a parenting class. So, yeah, whichever you want to start with first, I would just love to get your thoughts. Do you know what the medications were?

I do know some of them. Triazolam, diazepam, saraquil, xanax, vicodin. Oh, no. No, no, no. Yes. I mean, very heavy things. And when I was younger, I used to be able to identify them by color, right? So I'd be like, I'm sad. Can I have an orange one or whatever? And I was...

you know, eight, nine years old. And of course, that only progressed as I got older. But yeah, Alyssa and I were both exposed. I have to believe that if I was exposed to those that she was as well. Well, the short answer on the contract issue is that yes, in for kids with significant behavioral issues, it is possible in the paradigm of family therapy to develop a contract.

However, none of the examples that you talk about in your podcast are examples of appropriate contracts to have with kids. Certainly not to that extent. I mean, these were...

Yeah, clearly he took it to the nth degree. I mean, just... He took it to the... Exactly. And also engaged in what Shiloh and I call inconsistent parenting. So, you know, he was constantly moving the goalposts in that regard of like, well, this is the contract this week. And oh, well, you messed up this bit, so we're going to change it and make it even more difficult or challenging. But when it comes to the medication, I mean, that is...

Those are incredibly strong medications. Anything that ends, the ones that you were describing that ends with an AM or an INE are all part of a class of drug called benzodiazepines, and they're for anxiety. And they're highly addictive, and they're rarely given to children. You rarely give Seroquel. Seroquel can be used as a mood stabilizer and an antipsychotic.

And in some cases with people with severe depression, it can be used for to help sleep. But I mean, there is no indicator from anything, even talking to you right now, there's no indicator that those medications would have been appropriate for a child. And by the way, they weren't prescribed to you. I don't know where he got them. Right. He was playing doctor. Exactly. Like it wasn't prescribed to you with the diagnosis for that. So no, that should never, ever have happened.

Do you have any speculation as to why you think someone would give a child those medications? I mean, in a psychological aspect. Do you think he was maybe playing doctor and saying, she's sad, I'll give her what my doctor gives me when I'm sad?

Yeah, I think it could be that. Again, if there's a lot of self-confidence there of, I know what I'm doing and I've been in therapy with a psychiatrist for 10 years. And I'm a narcissist. Right. Well, yeah. High confidence or however you want to put it. But sure, they could take that upon themselves and see that they're perfectly skilled to do that. And if you're just characters in their life anyway, what's the harm? Let's...

You know, I don't know if there's a motive to knock you guys out, get you to go to sleep, you know, if he thought it was more of a control method. I mean, I think those are all possibilities, right?

Clearly, who knows? We can't say. But when it gets to the point where you're identifying a feeling and then asking for a certain color pill to take care of that feeling, that's not helping you develop as a person either. Our feelings are there for a reason. We're supposed to feel them and grow and develop into humans that can be resilient because we have sat through those feelings.

And so it was absolutely it's doing a disservice to constantly be pumping medication into someone to numb them out. It can also be used as a way of controlling. I mean, you know, you're giving examples of times that you asked for it. But that makes me wonder how many times was it given to you and to your sister when you didn't ask for it?

Or was it ever put in your food without you knowing? Those medications are so strong for a child with low body weight. All of those medications that you're sharing, even though they're very different medications, they would have an enormous tranquilizing effect. Like enormous Seroquel would be like having an elephant tranquilizer.

Absolutely. Well, and I think, you know, this might be an indication of how I grew up, but when I got older and when you become a teenager, you hear about these pills, right? Kids, you know, unfortunately do take prescription pills when they're not prescribed to them for recreation. And so when I got older and I started hearing all these names of pills that children wanted or whatever, I was like, wow, I've had those in my life for a very long time. And it was really shocking to me.

So, yeah, it's it's just something that I've always kind of wondered about. And I appreciate the clarity on that subject. And I still to this day wonder, like you said, if it could have been put in our food or anything to that that degree, because there's, you know, just so many instances and so many memories I can point back to and and wonder if that's the reason why A, B and C happened.

Well, what comes up for me just right now thinking is if this was medication prescribed to him and he's keeping a stash of it for you guys, then he's not properly being medicated because he's not taking it the specified times or intervals that he should be. Yet he is using it so he can go and get a new prescription because it will run out.

So it can speak to whether or not he was properly medicated for whatever diagnoses he had at the time and that his functioning and thinking is going to be hugely impacted by not being medicated.

And I say that to him. When I spoke to him in person in 2017, I said to him, I don't think that you've ever received the proper care you thought you were receiving from your psychiatrist. And part of that, I believe, is because he is so good at manipulating people.

But yeah, I mean, in his defense, as much as I don't love coming to his defense, I do feel like he was never properly treated throughout the decades in which he was supposed to be. So I feel that that's definitely a factor in everything. Yeah, I think you're hitting on something really, really cogent in that

Where does the response, you know, we're talking about a gray area of the responsibility. It's the psychiatrist's responsibility to understand if they're being manipulated and challenge that in order to further the health of the client. You know, the client could be a psychopath. The psychiatrist should recognize that. The client could be bipolar. The psychiatrist should recognize that and make their treatment considerations accordingly. And it seems like

that, you know, you're there were just, you know, there are some indicators that your dad was really able to convince people of a lot of things that weren't accurate. I agree. And it's unfortunate. I would love to, you know, of course, see how all of this would have played out had had things been different. This episode of Voices for Justice is sponsored by Ibotta. Are you planning your dream vacation but dreading the cost?

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With working with sex offenders for so long, there's a couple interesting things that we see that isn't necessarily the norm or how it always happens. But when you see common threads in very specific situations or environments, I think it's worth bringing up. And one of those is when there is a...

So I guess background or just laying a foundation, majority of sexual offenders are men and their victims can be male or female. But when it's a man and their spouse...

away, or maybe there's some separation or divorce where they are left as a primary caretaker of the children and or stepchildren. There is this phenomenon in intrafamilial sexual offending we see where, as Scott sort of alluded to earlier, that typically that oldest female sibling or child is

sort of starts turning into this replacement for the spouse. And that can be through very sort of benign types of duties at first. So explaining about like the dishwashing and household chores, and maybe even a little bit of parenting with the younger siblings.

Um, that, that, that sounds kind of natural, right? We would expect like the next oldest, whether it be a boy or a girl to have to take on a little bit more responsibility. If, especially if you have the, the parent who's remaining and they're, they out and they have to work and they're, they're working at their job and then everyone else has to sort of pick it up at home. But there is this role reversal when a father or stepfather, um,

ends up then crossing the line with that usually daughter and sexually offending her. And it, it,

Talking about grooming, we were talking about testing the waters and sort of mentioning sexually explicit things. That can be a way to sort of start crossing the line. It could be in physical touch. Walk up behind them as they're washing dishes and maybe putting hands on shoulders and just sort of seeing if they're tensing up, what's

what you need to back off on. This is how sexual predators groom their victims generally. Where can I touch them? You know, that maybe somebody normally wouldn't like inner thigh and then do they react? Do they even give me a look or do they just kind of freeze? And so these are the ways in which they can be groomed. And in this scenario specifically, it's very situational. This, it doesn't mean that this type of offender who's

now flipped the older stepchild into a partner and sexual partner role. It doesn't mean they have a history of sexual offending. They certainly can. And we do see that, but it can also be very opportunistic and situational because of how the environment has now been shaped that basically I just have to find a replacement for

to do all of these duties. And if that person thinks in their mind, that duty also involves my sexual needs getting met, that's when they can cross the line. So what we see with a lot of these individuals is a lot of stressors going on. They can be health stressors, financial stressors, grief issues, because possibly if there's the spouse that has passed away, poor impulse control,

lack of a sexual outlet or other intimate relationships. So if they're not out there dating again, they might just be getting those needs met at home. And just really not usually not great social skills there. They've sort of resorted to isolating at home and they don't have a lot of friends or other social outlets. So

It's a really difficult, difficult situation. And even like Shiloh has outlined this so beautifully, as disturbing as it is. But even if we were to take what she just described and take out the sexual aspect of it, it's still inappropriate.

It's still inappropriate to raise a child into the role of taking on the spouse. And that can happen. It can happen in intact families as well. I mean, there are young men who struggle with sort of becoming the ersatz boyfriend or husband of their moms because the mother is not getting her needs met properly.

emotionally by the distant husband. It can happen in that same way where suddenly, once again, a child is being thrust into the role of an adult when they don't have the emotional experience to inhabit that role, and nor should they. They should be able to be a child and develop their own relationships. Of course. And just like every other subject, of course, this brings up so many examples for me. I mean,

Alyssa, you know, I mean, so after our mother died, you know, our father did immediately start dating someone else just like his pattern, you know, like he had done his entire life. He had always been with a woman that, you know, he thought was there full time to take care of his children. Essentially, he said it, you know, my brothers remember these things. And the fact that he stopped after...

you know, Alyssa told this woman I'm having sex with my dad is a pretty big red flag for me, just in my opinion, as a normal person and seeing his behavior. And on top of that, as gross as it is for me to think about,

My brothers have always said that our father was a ladies man, for a lack of a more graphic term, and that he always had a partner. He was always pursuing someone. And that seemed to stop when Alyssa was about, you know, nine or 10 years old. And of course, you see it now.

unfortunately. In my opinion, Alyssa was talking about some... She knew sexual terms that I didn't when I was younger, that I didn't understand. You can see it in the pervert video, you know, when she said, Dad's a pervert and I skip away oblivious because I am, because I don't know what that means. You know, there was another instance where, I don't know if you guys remember, you probably do, Saturday Night Live used to have this skit with...

Will Ferrell and I believe it was Sherry O'Terry. And it was this cheerleader skit and they would say sex can wait, masturbate. And Alyssa made me go say that to our father. And I was like, I don't know what this means. I think this is funny. And Alyssa's like dying laughing in the other room or whatever. And our father's pissed. How old was she at the time? My goodness. Maybe 14. Maybe. Okay.

So, yeah, I mean, just those terms that she knew were really, really wild to me. And then, of course, again, I go back to the contracts. You know what I mean? She was made to sign that she was never sexually abused, that she wasn't bisexual, that she had never engaged in oral sex.

very specific and graphic terms that disturbed me, of course. And on top of that, we have a letter from Alyssa, so directly from her, where she's outlining an incident in which our father tells her that Child Protective Services have been informed of a situation and he believes that, um,

I think it was our I'm a little fuzzy in all the details, but I believe it was our brother that called them. And, you know, he believed that Alyssa told him all these things and said, you better tell me everything you told your brother or else, you know, Child Protective Services is going to take you and your sister away and you'll never see each other. And even scarier in that letter, she writes to her friend that our father said, you know, and if I clear this up for you, what are you going to do for me in return? Right.

Yeah. Yeah. All of that. So that's a lot to unpack, but yeah.

is to confuse the hell out of everyone. So now you don't know which way is up and you are questioning everything, whether it's you or your brother or Alyssa, whomever. It's taking the information that might be out there and instead of pushing it down or trying to hide it and keep it a secret, it's, okay, let's put this out there so then it's part of the manipulation. Everyone will think...

It is not real because why would I be talking about this or asking her to put this in a contract? So to me, it just sounds like more of the manipulation, the long game manipulation. Well, and I can confirm that that at least the police were not able to find a record of that child protective services call that our father is kind of using against Alyssa in that letter. So I

I don't believe that the call was ever made. I don't think that Child Protective Services were informed of anything by that party at all.

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You know, one of the hallmarks of people with severe personality disorders, and I'm going to speak in general terms because I'm not going to do a third party diagnosis. But one of the things like let me talk about like a severe mental illness such as schizophrenia. You know, schizophrenia is based on organic genetics.

brain differences. The brain structure is different. The chemicals are different. And because of this, the individual perceives the world in a radically different way. They hear, they can hear, see, feel, smell things, believe things that are not true in any objective sense and don't exist in objective reality, but it feels very real to them. But

Even away from a diagnosis like that, an individual with a severe personality disorder, for lack of a better term, they can create their own reality from moment to moment. It's not like their brain is generating these ideas and thoughts and sounds and visuals, but it is happening.

This is the way I'm going to believe. This is the world I'm going to create. And I'm going to keep pounding and pounding and pounding away until it is real.

So when I hear examples of someone just saying over and over again, learning disability, learning disability, learning disability, learning disability, you know, at some point when you've been saying it for year after year and every school administrator has heard it and every school nurse has heard it and every neighbor has heard it, at some point they're going to go,

Wait, where did this come from? And it becomes part of the narrative and nobody is discerning whether it's true or not. And that's just something that I've seen an example here that, you know, there's several examples of this, like just creating his own reality from moment to moment. Does that feel like that could have been happening?

Absolutely. And I can speak to a few different instances in which I believe that's exactly the case. For example, my entire life growing up, the cornerstone of my father's sexuality.

sad, sad life story that he would tell to every cashier and bank teller and anyone that would listen to him was that he was fired three weeks before his wife died of cancer. It was something I must have heard every single day growing up for my entire life. Um, and I, of course find out, I get paperwork from my aunt that tells me that he wasn't fired. He quit three weeks before his wife died and knowing the full consequences of all of that. Um,

And another thing that I was told, you know, pretty much my whole life was about all of his experiences in the Vietnam War, you know, about how he was drafted and how it was horrible because they used Agent Orange on him and just everything in between. And later to find out in his bomb trial when he's finally under oath.

He admits that he was never in Vietnam. So absolutely. I think there were so many things that I felt were absolutely real that as I became an adult, all the truth started coming out and his reality that he created for himself and being this. I always say that he's like the hero and the victim at the same time as how he always tried to display himself. You know what I mean? Exactly. That's the narrative he wants to create.

Exactly. And, you know, in every facet of every way, you know, that even carried on to, of course, after Alyssa was gone, it became another part of his sad, sad story. You know, look at him, this guy who was fired three weeks before his wife died because he's just a good guy trying to tell the truth about this union and their unsafe working practices. You know, Vietnam War veteran to only then tragically lose his daughter. Right.

later on in his life, you know, in his own words, in his own manifesto to that same union. So this union is harassing him for his wife and they go on to kidnap and kill his daughter. And he, you know, very in a very action movie type of way goes after them and kills these two guys. And it's

It's almost like you're watching some terrible Bruce Willis movie about a, you know, a really good cop who's maybe burnt out and has just, you know, had all these terrible things happen to him. And now he's ready to get vengeance and and become the hero. It does sound like a really terrible screenplay that just a guy sitting at home has written. Yeah.

And just how can I make this so fantastical and but all kind of fit like like at the end of each scene. Wait, I got to make this fit what I said back then. And with no real ending. And Sarah, you absolutely nailed it right there where the individual is simultaneously the victim and the hero.

It's a bad Rambo movie in a way. And it's also an example of sort of this alternative reality that is created where somebody is so important that this huge organization like a union or a monarchy or a government would focus on this one guy, like this one person from the middle of nowhere, right?

is like the most important person in the world, and we're going to put all of our forces together to persecute him. So that, once again, feeds into this idea of the self as a narcissist that is the center of the world. They are really the only thing that exists, and everything else revolves around them.

And it really has always felt that way, especially, you know, when he said that the Phoenix police planted the 26 pipe bombs in his home. I mean, there's just so many examples where he thinks that he is the center point of some very large conspiracy that includes us.

insane amounts of people and in high positions. You know, for example, when the chief of police in Phoenix wrote our father a letter and said, you know, he was in prison at this time and he said, I think you have information about your daughter. Can you please speak to us? Will you please interview with us? And he responds with this six page letter that

outlining his life and then these conditions that include, you know, he has to be on live TV on CNN. It has to include him being able to interview John Walsh from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, like the, you know, the judge in his bomb case, a bunch of detectives. Yeah, just crazy request after request. It's as if that's reasonable. Yeah, knowing that that could never be meant.

And, and if they do meet it, then it supports that narrative of being a very important person. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's just these responses that I think are so indicative of, of that behavior that it's, it's scary. And I, I go back and forth between, you know, is, does he really believe this or does he not? And, um,

The reason I kind of believe that he knows exactly what he's doing and exactly what happened is that 2017 meeting with him where he he's extremely taunting to me. I mean, even if you want to say it's a joke when he says, come to the deathbed and I'll give you all the honest answers you want to hear or I'll agree to everything at the state agrees to give me lethal injection within 10 days. The fact that he did it twice and the fact that he did it kind of aggressively doesn't feel like a joke to me.

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A lot of things to think about. But I think what fascinates me on a personal level about this case, Sarah, is your resiliency. Because to think of the household that you lived in and the things that you were led to believe in.

And that at some point you were able to step back and say, there's no way that this is true. And almost like do a 180 and I'm going to do what's right here. To me, it's almost unbelievable how you're able to do that from, I know it's not flawless on the inside, but from the outside, like just to us, to see your resiliency and your

passion, um, is really a beautiful thing to see someone come out of that and do what you're doing. I couldn't agree more. I, one of the first things that I did when I was listening to the episodes early on, um, and communicating with Shiloh about it is, you know, I have worked with

When I was working in the state prison system in the jails, I've worked with some very bad people. I've worked with some very, very bad, very dangerous people. And the idea and I've lost my patience with them as well. You know, working in incarceration settings can be really challenging at times. And I remember one of my first impressions in listening to you talk.

talk to your dad, I was thinking, how is she doing this and not completely losing her mind? How are you not just screaming at him at sort of at the injustices of it? So the resilience that you have been born with and further developed is just incredibly impressive and keep doing what you're doing.

Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. I am. I'm definitely relieved that you aren't like you're a terrible mess. We need to schedule you for an appointment like literally right now. I'm going to go get licensed in Arizona right now. Not at all. Yeah. Yeah.

It's hard to explain how I feel the way I feel or how I can do what I do, because sometimes I don't even know. But, you know, despite everything that happened and how I was raised, I still feel like he very much ingrained this moral compass in me. And

you know, this path for justice, believe it or not. I was always taught if someone's doing the wrong thing, you need to speak up about it. And you don't treat people badly and you don't lie. As crazy as that sounds, that's really what was instilled in me. And more so than that, it really comes down to Alyssa would have done it for me. And my goodness, you know, look at what she endured for so many years and how she was so strong and still took care of me. So

Yeah, I feel like now it's my time to take care of her. And the only way I know how is through getting her justice. Definitely. This weekend, my father was visiting me. He's a former detective. And we were talking about this upcoming interview that we were going to be recording with you. And he said, Sarah really has the best parts of

Her dad to drive her in this strive for justice the attention to detail what an amazing observation Yeah to just keep going You know, she knows the right questions to ask and and it just goes back to show and Scott and I talk about this so much on many different topics on our podcast is if people could just channel that energy for good and

how amazing this world could be instead of, you know, some of the awful ways in which people take those tactics and intricacies of their personality and unfortunately use them for bad.

Yeah, no. And I mean, that's incredibly kind of your father to say those things, by the way. My goodness, that's so sweet that you even discuss me with him. He's a fan. Oh, my gosh, that's so sweet. I love that. Well, yeah. And I mean, thank you is really all I can say is, you know, I've had so much support in the true crime community and through other creators and, of course, listeners and whatnot now. Yeah.

So it's really nice to have, you know, so much support from people. And I really do appreciate you guys coming on. Before I close out and, you know, ask you to tell everyone where they can find you, is there anything else that you guys wanted to say?

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I think we for you know, you have a I love your audience. You know, when I when I'm looking on social media and I'm seeing all the wonderful support that you get from your listeners, I'm always so impressed. And I would just say, if if anything, if the one thing that people bring away from this discussion, and I think there's actually a lot to pull from today's talk is, you know, learn how to be a good parent.

You know, really like there's there's ways to learn to be a better parent. And it's not about being the best parent. It's not about being a perfect parent because there is no such thing as a perfect parent. And in fact, if you were the perfect parent, then you would really screw your kid up because kids need to be able to see how their parents deal with life's challenges in order for them to develop the skills necessary.

I love that. Dr. Shiloh, did you have anything you wanted to add?

No, I think that's a good note to end on. Scott is a very good godfather to my daughter. So it is important. It's important to have good adults around for kiddos other than their parents. And I think we all have that responsibility if we've chosen to have children in our life by whatever means.

Oh my goodness. You guys are so sweet. I honestly love you both. I hope that we get to work together at CrimeCon this year if it is happening. Otherwise, we will definitely have to figure out some other way to work together because you guys are amazing and I really do appreciate your professional opinion. So thank you. And I would love if you guys take a moment and plug yourselves the best you can and tell everybody where to find you and your amazing podcast.

Well, thank you very much. So we also hope that there's just more collaboration in the future and people can find us. So our podcast is again, LA not so confidential, and you can find that on any of your pod catchers. We are just about everywhere on social media. We're pretty active there. We are also, if people love psychology topics, we're throwing up a lot of articles and

on various topics, not just the ones we're covering. But we are a forensic psychology and true crime podcast. So we generally will focus on a psychological concept and then talk about some true crime cases that involve those. And we also love

to wrap in Scott's entertainment background. So we, we have talked about a lot of really bad Bruce Willis movies now that you bring that up. Yeah, that's true. Poor Bruce Willis. I know they're, they're so bad that they're good, but, um, so that's, that's a little bit just of who we are in our style, uh, social media wise. We're on Facebook. We're on Instagram at LA not so podcast, Twitter at LA not so pod. And you guys can also find us on get vocal every other Saturday night. Yeah.

But thank you so much for the opportunity. And I love chatting on, you know, there with you as well, Sarah. Yes. No, I love it too. It's such a fun place for podcasters to get together. And just people in general. It really is. It's so cool. So I'll link all of that below too. I'll link your GetVocal. I'll link all of the places people can find you because you guys are amazing. And

I believe that you are creators who really, really care. So you will forever have my love and my... Yeah, I will forever vouch for you guys because you are just genuinely wonderful human beings. And everybody, please go listen to their podcast. Please go show them some love. But yeah, I mean, thank you guys for being here. Thank you for all that you do outside of this recording. I just really appreciate having you guys in my life. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening to both parts of this episode and to Dr. Shiloh and Dr. Scott for coming on. And please go check out their podcast, LA Not So Confidential. As always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.

Voices for Justice is hosted, produced, and edited by me, Sarah Turney. If you want to learn more about Alyssa's story and how you can help with the case, visit justiceforalyssa.com. And if you love the show, it would really help if you gave me a rating and review in your podcast player. Thank you so much, and I'll talk to you next time. Of course, I want to take a moment and say thank you so, so much to Dr. Shiloh and Dr. Scott for their insight.

I hope it was helpful for you guys, but honestly, it was really helpful just for me. And the fact that Dr. Shiloh was a cop and her father was also a part of law enforcement is killing me, you guys. That is insane to me. I know I said this after the Todd McComas episode, but...

It means the world to me that there's law enforcement backing what I'm doing with Alyssa's story. It just makes me feel more validated and reassured that I'm doing the right thing. But really, I cannot thank them or recommend them enough. They really are creators who care about the cases they speak about. And to me, that's what's most important.

Anyone can make a great quality podcast, but caring is something that doesn't always come naturally and isn't something that every creator does. So again, please, please go check out LA Not So Confidential. And I want to take this moment to tell you guys about some upcoming episodes that I am really excited about.

The first one is I'm actually going to have my cousin Jamie and my cousin David back on the show. And what I want to do is ask them some questions that come right from you guys, ask them some questions that I have. So please, if you guys have ever, ever, and I know you have because I've seen them, if you've ever had any questions for my cousin Jamie, which...

If you guys don't remember, my cousin Jamie is the one who tells the story of my father coming into her room and offering a back rub. And it's a really crazy and disturbing, in my opinion, story. So if you haven't listened to that, it's way back in the beginning of the podcast, as is my interview with David. So David is the cousin that found the tape of Alyssa and this other girl, you know, naked from the waist up.

So again, I'm going to have both them back on. It's going to be a totally different episode. It's going to be more of an interview style. It's all you're going to hear. So yeah, if you guys have any questions for David and Jamie, please send them my way. They don't have to be voice memos like what you hear in this after show. They can just be written out and then I will filter through and ask them as many questions as possible.

So I think at the very least, it's going to be extremely interesting. So I'm very, very excited about that. So please submit your questions.

Additionally, if you have questions for any of Alyssa's friends, I am developing that episode as well. I am trying to gather as many of Alyssa's friends as possible to do just kind of a roundtable discussion. It's going to be probably a lot less serious than the Jamie and David episode, just because it's going to be more of our favorite memories of Alyssa. And hopefully it's a very happy episode where we can, you know, just remember her and honor her memory. Of course, I do anticipate, you know, the

topics coming up because they just do. It's a very sad story. But again, I am very excited for both of these episodes. And if you have any questions for her friends, if you have any questions for my cousins, please submit them to me at sarah at voicesforjusticepodcast.com. And while we're on the topic of submitting questions, here is our question for this after show.

Hey, Sarah. I've been wondering for as long as I've been listening to the podcast and you did say that you thought your dad was innocent, I was heartbroken for you just knowing that you continuously pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed for him. Like, if you feel any sort of guilt towards aiding and, you know, anything that he had ever asked you to do, like, I feel...

so bad that you spent so much time and effort and money and resources on trying to help him. If you could go back and change that, would you? Thank you so much for your question. Honestly, it's complicated because I feel like I was doing the right thing at the time. I fought for him so hard because I truly believed that he was innocent regarding Alyssa and needed help. So I don't regret doing what I felt was right.

However, I've been told that because I changed my mind about my father, it could jeopardize my integrity as a witness in Alyssa's case. So I think that's what hurts me the most. In both stages of my life, I'm just trying to do what I think is right and help the people I love. But of course, I had no idea what the facts of the case were and what was really going on between Alyssa and our father.

So as much as I wish I could have that time, energy, and money back, I don't regret what I was doing because I felt it was right. Especially because I wasn't really helping him with anything regarding Alyssa. So I hope that answers your question. I know I gave kind of a complicated answer. And of course, if you guys have questions, please submit a voice memo, again, to sarah at voicesforjusticepodcast.com. And as always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.