Deanna Cremin
35:49 Share

It's that time of the year. Your vacation is coming up. You can already hear the beach waves, feel the warm breeze, relax, and think about work. You really, really want it all to work out while you're away. Monday.com gives you and the team that peace of mind. When all work is on one platform and everyone's in sync, things just flow wherever you are. Tap the banner to go to Monday.com.

What's something that works so well that it's basically magic? It's summertime, so how about air conditioning? Noise-canceling headphones? Meeting-free Fridays? Well, what about selling with Shopify?

Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. From the "launch your online shop" stage, to the first real-life store stage, all the way to the "did we just hit a million orders" stage, Shopify's there to help you grow. Whether you're selling trained detective t-shirts or advocacy gear, Shopify helps you sell everywhere.

From their all-in-one e-commerce platform to their in-person POS system, wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify's got you covered.

What I love about Shopify is no matter how big you grow, Shopify grows with you. And they give you everything you need to take your business to the next level. Sign up for a $1 per month trial at shopify.com slash justice, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash justice now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.com slash justice.

Voices for Justice is a podcast that uses adult language and discusses sensitive and potentially triggering topics including violence, abuse, and murder. This podcast may not be appropriate for younger audiences. All parties are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Some names have been changed or omitted per their request or for safety purposes. Listener discretion is advised. My name is Sarah Turney and this is Voices for Justice.

Today, I'm discussing the murder of Deanna Kremen. On Deanna Kremen's 17th birthday in March 1995, her mother gave her what most teenagers in the 90s coveted: her very own pager. Deanna was a typical teenager. She would skip class, sneak the occasional beer or a cigarette, and she enjoyed spending time with her long-term boyfriend.

But she was also very responsible. She had a job at the local supermarket and just finished training to become a cashier. She also babysat for many families in the neighborhood, and even hosted some children's programming on her local community access TV station. Deanna was finishing her junior year at Somerville High School, and her future looked bright. While she wasn't entirely sure what she wanted to do after, many believe she would have worked with kids.

On March 29th, just a few days after her 17th birthday, she turned in an assignment outlining the top five most important goals for her life. 1. Graduate high school. 2. To find a successful job that I enjoy. 3. To have a dark green convertible Mustang. 4. To have a happy family. 5. To live a long time, healthy.

Under this, she's asked to choose which one of these five goals is the most important, and Deanna chose number five, to live a long and healthy life. That night, Deanna went to her boyfriend's apartment after school like she normally did. A few hours later, she called her mom to tell her that she was going to miss her 10pm curfew so that they could finish watching TV together, but she'd be home later. By midnight, Deanna hadn't made it home.

and when her mom paged her, Deanna never called her back. It wasn't until the next morning that she got the news. Deanna had been found by two of the kids she babysat. She'd been strangled to death and sexually assaulted less than half a mile from her home. Despite big promises from authorities about getting Deanna justice, it's been almost 30 years with no answers. This is the case of Deanna Kremen.

When Katherine Kremen was pregnant with her second daughter Deanna, she dreamed she would have green eyes when she was born. That wish would come true. Deanna was born on March 26th, 1978. She was a beautiful, healthy baby, and as she grew older, her eyes turned a gorgeous shade of green. Deanna spent her early years in Massachusetts with her mother and her father Bert.

She excelled quickly, learning to walk at just nine months old, and she was basically her mom's little shadow. But the family wouldn't stay together for very long. By 1981, Catherine married a man named Michael Kremen, and she moves Deanna and her sister Christine to California to be with Michael. Catherine would later tell the Boston Globe that they were a typical, lower-middle-class family, and, quote, "...Michael and I weren't the best parents. We were stupid. We made

By the time Deanna was nine, the family moved back to Massachusetts and eventually settled in Somerville, about 15 minutes outside of Boston.

The population at this time was around 75,000 people, and the town was named the best-run city in Massachusetts by the Boston Globe several times. It was just one of those towns that seemed great for raising a family. And that's exactly what Michael and Catherine did. Pretty soon, Deanna would have two younger brothers, Albert, four years younger, and Mark, 11 years younger.

But because of these age differences, Deanna's sister Christine says they had a very special bond. She told the Boston Globe, "...we went through a lot together with our family and stuff. We were just able to comfort each other in ways that only we could, because only us two went through it. Just nobody else will know the things I've been through, because my other brothers are so much younger."

While researching Deanna's life and case, I found so many quotes and blurbs about what she was like. In fact, there's way more out there about just how amazing Deanna was than there is about the circumstances surrounding her murder. And I really love that. It's also extremely important to Deanna's family that she be remembered for who she was, not just her tragic demise. Especially because those who knew her are so real about who she was.

Her sister Christine talks about how Deanna always wore her clothes without her permission. We know that the girls shared a strawberry shortcake-themed room that was often split down the middle using chalk to make sure either sister stayed on their designated side to prevent fights. If any of you guys out there have shared a room with your sister or just another sibling, you know this fight. Catherine has also discussed how she once found the girls trying to make chicken soup in the toilet.

As Deanna got older, she became fiercely protective of her younger brothers, and in most family photos, you can see her hugging on one of them.

She also just really enjoyed taking care of kids in general, and was not only the neighborhood's favorite babysitter, but she actually acted in two different television shows geared toward children for the local Somerville Community Access TV station. One show was called Socks. Deanna plays this Alice in Wonderland-type character as we follow the story of a sock lost in the dryer who learns that it's okay to be an individual.

Now, while Deanna wasn't 100% sure about what she wanted to do after high school, she was enrolled in the child development program at Somerville High, and most believe she would have worked with kids in some capacity in the future. Deanna also spent a good amount of her time caring for her grandmother with Alzheimer's.

But Deanna was also your typical teenager. She snuck cigarettes, she skipped school, she drank beer in the park, she loved Pepsi and spicy pickles, and she worked at the local supermarket, Star Mart, where she'd just finished training to be a cashier. On her 17th birthday, on March 26, 1995, her mom gave her the ever-coveted 90s communication device, her very own pager.

And like a lot of teenagers, Deanna spent quite a bit of time with her boyfriend of about two years, 19-year-old Tommy LeBlanc, who would ultimately be the last person known to see her alive on March 29th, just three days after Deanna's 17th birthday.

This episode of Voices for Justice is sponsored by June's Journey. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game, and you step into the role of June Parker and search for hidden clues to uncover the mystery of her sister's murder. Basically, you engage your observation skills to quickly uncover key pieces of information that lead to chapters of mystery, danger, and romance.

Throughout your investigation, you also customize your very own luxurious estate island. You collect scraps of information to fill your photo album and learn more about each character. But my favorite part is chatting and playing with or against other players by joining a detective club and putting my skills to the test in a detective league.

So, there's kind of two times that I find myself playing June's Journey. One is kind of throughout the day when I just need like a little decompression break, I play a few scenes and get back to work. Or more often than not, when I'm laying down for the night, I tend to play then too. For me, it's a nice way to unwind, decompress, and get lost in a mystery. Discover your inner detective when you download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

This episode of Voices for Justice is sponsored by Quince. I can't believe that we are rolling into fall, but we are, which means it's time to refresh your wardrobe. And luckily, Quince offers timeless and high-quality pieces that will not blow your budget.

Like cashmere sweaters from $50, pants for every occasion, washable silk tops, and more. All Quince items are priced 50-80% less than similar brands. And they do that by partnering directly with top factories. That way they cut out the cost of the middleman and pass those savings on to us. At this point, I've tried a little bit of everything from Quince.

I'm still in love with their tencel jersey fit and flare dresses. Especially in Arizona, it's really easy to dress them up or dress them down and add some layers if it gets colder.

Make switching seasons a breeze with Quince's high-quality closet essentials. Go to quince.com slash justice for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash justice to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash justice

Wednesday, March 29th, 1995 was just like any other school day for Deanna. That day, she turned in an assignment outlining the top five most important goals for her life. Number one, graduate high school. Number two, to find a successful job that I enjoy. Number three, to have a dark green convertible Mustang. Number four, to have a happy family. Number five, to live a long time healthy.

Under this, she's asked to choose which one of these five goals is most important to her. Indiana writes, quote, to live long and healthy, end quote.

After school, Deanna gets on the bus to go to her boyfriend's house. There, she runs into her mom, who was on her way home from her job in Boston. Deanna tells her she's going to Tommy's to do some homework and hang out. A few hours later, Deanna calls her mom to let her know that she won't be home for her 10pm curfew, because she and Tommy want to keep watching TV together. Catherine tells Deanna, okay, I love you. And Deanna says, I love you too, mom.

After this, Catherine falls asleep on the couch. When she wakes up around midnight, Deanna still isn't home, so she pages her. But Deanna never calls her back. Catherine figures she probably fell asleep watching TV too, and shrugs it off. But in the morning, Catherine calls Tommy, telling him to put her daughter on the phone because she needs to get her butt home now. But Tommy says Deanna isn't there. He walked her about half the way home last night around 11pm.

So Catherine and Michael Kremen began searching for Deanna a little, assuming she probably just met up with another friend and stayed out all night. When they don't find her, they figure she'll likely show up at school, and Catherine Kremen goes to work as usual. But not long after, she gets a call from Michael, telling her she needs to come home immediately.

Catherine asks Michael what happened, but she already knew that it was bad. Before she could hear the news for herself, Catherine overhears people talking about it on the bus home. A 17-year-old girl was found dead in Somerville.

Around 8am that morning, two girls took a shortcut to A.D. Healy Elementary and found their babysitter, Deanna, lying near a fence and a tree on her back behind a senior housing complex. One of her legs was partially outside of her pants, and she only had one sock on.

While authorities would initially tell her parents that Deanna died of a drug overdose, the autopsy revealed that she'd been strangled with bare hands, had several broken bones, and was sexually assaulted. By the time Catherine got home, her block was filled with cop cars, and she began screaming. Deanna's friends were pulled from class, taken aside by counselors, and told the news before asking their parents to pick them up for the day.

Soon, friends and neighbors began placing balloons, cards, and stuffed animals where Deanna was found. The whole community was just shocked and devastated. Who would do something like this?

Quickly, the news of Deanna's murder was everywhere. People were outraged and demanded answers. On April 1st, the Somerville Police Department spent the entire day interviewing people and going through Deanna's belongings, looking for any clue about who may have wanted to hurt her. They promised the public they won't stop working until they find the person responsible. On April 3rd, they held services for Deanna. It's just heartbreaking.

There were at least 150 vehicles in the funeral procession, and many of her friends and classmates joined in, blasting Billy Joel's Only the Good Die Young from their cars. It's estimated that around a thousand people attended the service for Deanna. By April 4th, the investigation was in full swing.

First Assistant DA Martin F. Murphy tells the Boston Globe that they've already questioned dozens of people. The Somerville Police Department then released a sketch of a man believed to be in the area where Deanna was found. They say he's about 40-45 years old, 5'9-5'11 tall, and around 160-170 pounds. They stress that he isn't a suspect at this point, they just want to talk to him.

And another article in the Boston Globe runs, discussing how a local firefighter, apparently from an affluent family in the area, is being questioned.

It's reported that Deanna's friends told police that he had apparently recently expressed interest in her. But he wasn't the only person being looked at. Of course, many people wanted to know more about the last person who saw Deanna, her boyfriend Tommy. Now, we don't know a lot about Tommy. He's been described as quiet and introverted compared to Deanna, but...

but I'm sure there's a lot more to him than that. Ultimately, here's what Tommy says happened that night. Around 11pm, he walked Deanna about half the way home. The distance between Tommy's apartment and Deanna's home was about half a mile. Usually, Tommy walked Deanna all the way home, but he says on this night he ordered some food and was expecting it at his door soon.

So he walks Deanna basically to about the end of her street, Jake Street. He says goodnight, and he goes back home. He says he never heard from or saw Deanna after that. Deanna was then found about 500 feet from where Tommy says he last saw her.

But neither of these people have ever been named official suspects, and authorities were getting upset over the speculation. Middlesex DA Thomas Riley told the Boston Globe, "...I think it's reckless and irresponsible at this stage of the investigation to name anyone. It's unfair to the victim's family, to anyone named, and it creates obstacles for us. What good does it do? This has the potential to tear a city apart."

The speculation about Tommy only grew after his mother got a restraining order against him in the months after Deanna's murder. She told the media that he had a pretty bad temper and mood swings since her death, but added that the restraining order was not because of Deanna's case.

Now, this is just one of those cases where the community rallied around Deanna's family and initiatives to find her killer. People were pissed and scared. Soon, local businesses began selling clothing and accessories that said, As in, respect Deanna's life.

All proceeds went to an ever-growing reward fund for information leading to an arrest. By May, the reward fund was up to $10,000. They also used a bit of the money raised to establish a scholarship fund for students of Somerville High who planned to go into teaching.

The intersection where Deanna was found was renamed to Deanna Kremen Square. There were also a ton of billboards, and the police had spoken to nearly 100 people with a few possible leads. And while no one had been ruled out, there was no prime suspect. But that was really it. Investigators wouldn't release more information about the crime scene or Deanna's autopsy. We don't know if they have DNA evidence.

We don't know if Deanna was killed where she was found or off-site and later moved. And beyond the sketch being released, we don't have further information about possible witnesses in the area seeing or hearing anything. Other than this firefighter from presumably an affluent family and Deanna's boyfriend, the only other possible person of interest mentioned is an unnamed man in prison for rape.

He denies killing Deanna, but apparently had no issues explaining to the police what he would have done if it were him. Deanna's mother Catherine would be very honest about how hard this was on her and the entire family. Over a series of articles with the Boston Globe who covered this case extensively, she explains that after Deanna died, the entire family fell apart.

Catherine was prescribed a sedative to help with her grief and quickly became addicted to it. She also began drinking heavily. Soon she lost her job, her home, got divorced, and temporarily lost custody of her sons. She said, quote, You'd think the bottom fell out, and the bottom kept falling. End quote. In 2015, Deanna's sister Christine told the Boston Globe, quote, It was like I lost my entire family.

Deanna's murder had a major ripple effect. Even one of her guidance counselors admitted he, in part, left his job due to the toll Deanna's murder took on him and the entire school.

For years, Deanna's friends showed up at vigils, rallies, and remembrances for her. Before long, they started getting married and bringing their kids to the events, thinking about how unfair it was that Deanna would never grow up.

This episode of Voices for Justice is sponsored by Ibotta. Are you planning your dream vacation but dreading the cost? With Ibotta, you get cash back on all your purchases, so you can spend more time making memories and less time dreaming about them. Ibotta is a free app that lets you earn cash back every time you shop. You can also get cash back on all your purchases,

You can earn on hundreds of items you buy every day, from groceries to beauty supplies and even toys. The average Ibotta user earns $256 per year.

That's a plane ticket, a shopping trip, or even a fancy dinner. And they have so many brands, over 2,400. Lowe's, Macy's, Sephora, Best Buy, and more. I've been using Ibotta for a really long time. It's one way that I make every penny stretch. And right now, Ibotta is offering our listeners $5 just for trying Ibotta by using the code CRIME when you register.

Just go to the App Store or Google Play Store and download the free Ibotta app to start earning cash back and use code CRIME. That's I-B-O-T-T-A in the Google Play Store or App Store and use code CRIME.

This episode of Voices for Justice is sponsored by CB Distillery. If you're anything like me, my medicine cabinet was filled with things that just didn't help me. I still couldn't sleep, I was still in pain, and I was still stressed out. So I gave CB Distillery a try, and it has been a real change. And in two non-clinical surveys, 81% of customers experienced more calm.

and 90% said that they slept better with CBD. And I'm a part of that 90%. I've had trouble sleeping for most of my life, and after trying every tea, every pill that I could get my hands on, CBD distilleries' deep sleep gummies have actually worked for me. It not only helps me fall asleep, but it helps me stay asleep, which has been my big problem in the past.

So if you struggle with a health concern and haven't found relief, make the change like I did to CB Distillery. And with over 2 million customers and a solid 100% money-back guarantee, CB Distillery is the source to trust. I have a 20% discount to get you started. Visit cbdistillery.com and use code JUSTICE for 20% off. That's cbdistillery.com, code JUSTICE. cbdistillery.com

By the 10-year anniversary of Deanna's murder in 2005, authorities say that they're closer than ever to catching her killer due to new forensic technology. District Attorney Martha Coakley told the media, "...in the last couple of months, we believe we've made some developments on the forensic front. We do believe that a person or people know about this murder, and may have seen this murder, and we urge them to come forward."

While at first, this did bring hope to Deanna's friends and family, it would soon dwindle as the DA continued to repeat similar statements at almost every anniversary without any action to follow. In 2008, Deanna's stepfather, Michael Kremen, died without ever knowing what happened to Deanna. Catherine told the Boston Globe, "...he truly died a broken man over the loss of Deanna. It destroyed him."

In 2009, Catherine petitioned for Deanna's story to be featured on the show Cold Case Files. She actually literally made a petition, as well as at least one video basically begging them to talk about Deanna. But as far as I could find, that never happened. In 2011, Deanna's uncle Victor passed away after fighting for her for years.

In 2013, the Somerville PD once again tells the public that they have three persons of interest in the case, but won't name who. Though I think it's safe to assume it was the original three. The firefighter, the boyfriend, and the man in prison for rape.

That same year, about 400 people joined in a march for Deanna. They walked Deanna's path home. Her friends, family, and all their children Deanna would never meet marched. Many wore shirts that said, Walk Deanna Home, as they repeated the same chant. But in front of Tommy's old apartment, they stood in silence.

For the 20-year anniversary of Deanna's murder in 2015, they were reassured again that with new technology, authorities were certain they'd finally crack the case. Middlesex District Attorney Marian Ryan told the Boston Herald, "...this case is still an open and very active investigation. Let's just say there's been, very recently, there's been some advances in the case."

But Deanna's loved ones were becoming numb to that message. Her sister Christine told the Boston Globe, "...don't say that and not come out with any answers. It was like our hopes were all up. Like we really thought something was coming, and then it just never came through." And Deanna's mother Catherine said it was clear that over the years, those running for district attorney were just using the promise of solving Deanna's case to get more votes.

While the news stories about Deanna slowed down over the years, the passion in her community has never been extinguished. That same year, $50,000 was added to the reward fund to catch Deanna's killer. And in 2016, over 20 years after Deanna was murdered, local Otis Park was renamed Deanna Kremen Park. But then, unfortunately in 2017, Deanna's sister Christine passes away far before her time.

Our last real update comes in 2019, when Middlesex District Attorney Marion Ryan announces that they've established a new cold case unit, and that this unit will focus exclusively on solving the county's oldest and most challenging cases, like Deanna's. But Deanna's case remains unsolved.

The Somerville Police Department maintains that the case is open and active, and thus they remain extremely tight-lipped. No new information has been released, and no new persons of interest have been identified, and if there has been progress in the case, they aren't talking about it.

So who killed Deanna Kremen? Well, it appears that the man in the sketch has never been identified. We don't know much more about this man convicted of rape. And the firefighter, while brought in for questioning a few times, remains a bit of a mystery. All we really know is that it appears Deanna and her friends used to walk by his fire station on the way to school.

and again that he expressed some type of interest in her, possibly hitting on her at some point. While there are rumors swirling around on Reddit that he possibly spent some time with her, I couldn't find a credible source to confirm that.

As for Deanna's boyfriend Tommy LeBlanc, well, Deanna's family hasn't heard from him in over 20 years. They say he was never active in raising awareness about Deanna's murder, and he's never really spoken to the media. Deanna's mother Catherine has made many statements about her belief that Tommy knows more than what he's told police, and that he may be at least involved in what happened to her daughter in 1995.

Now, I do have some thoughts I'd like to share with you. This is a case where we know next to nothing about the actual investigation. We don't know if anyone saw or heard anything outside of that initial sketch. We don't know much about the crime scene. The autopsy has never been released. We don't know what they do or don't have. So, we're mostly left with a lot of speculation.

And while we also don't know these three persons of interest, I think by now a lot of us have seen examples of how law enforcement, like all humans, are not perfect. There is so much talk from the DA and the Somerville PD about new technology and testing that I have to believe they have something to test.

My fear is, after almost 30 years now, what's actually left that could be viable for testing? That maybe there's not a lot left that's actually viable for testing. As they've said themselves, technology has changed so much over the years. So I have to wonder what evidence, if any, was actually maintained over the years for future testing. Sometimes these samples are kind of used to their fullest extent, and eventually destroyed.

It's just the way these things go. So, like Deanna's family, I do fear that authorities are placating them with promises of new technology year after year without producing any results.

Deanna was and is fiercely loved by a large community of people still fighting for her today, including her mother Catherine. And I don't think authorities can keep using the same line year after year without this community finally saying enough is enough. I could see them demanding the case file, or at least for more information to be released to the public.

Like we saw last week in the case of Josh Guimond, after decades without a solve, sometimes the only option left is to release more information to the public and beg for their help.

Which brings me right to our call to action. While Deanna's case was huge in the media when she was first murdered, I was pretty shocked to see how little coverage her case gets these days. I know there's no crazy crime scene to analyze, and no list of shocking persons of interest to pore over, but Deanna matters. A 17-year-old kid should be able to walk half a block home at 11pm at night without being strangled and sexually assaulted.

and her killer should not be free to roam this earth after taking such a bright light out of this world. Deanna had every right to realize her top priority, to live a long and healthy life. So please, share her story. Talk about how this incredible kid was taken way too soon, and especially how she still needs justice.

Because like I always say, media pressure can move mountains. Deanna Crumman was 17 years old when she was killed on or about March 29th, 1995 in Somerville, Massachusetts.

If you have information about Deanna's murder, you can call the tip line at 617-544-7167. You can also text tips anonymously to the Somerville Police Department at 874-411. But as always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.

Voices for Justice is hosted and produced by me, Sarah Turney, and is a Voices for Justice media original. If you love what we do here, please don't forget to follow, rate, and review the show in your podcast player. It's an easy and free way to help us and help more people find these cases in need of justice. You can also support what we do here on Patreon at patreon.com slash voices for justice. And

And for even more content, check out my other podcast, Disappearances, only on Spotify.

Welcome to the Secret After Show, where I open the door to my recording studio, let the dogs come in, and tell you about all the things I didn't want to mention in the episode. If you're new here, this is basically my version of bullshit true crime banter that you'd find normally at the beginning of a podcast. I like to put it here so you can kind of opt out of that, and also so that we can focus on the facts when telling the stories about these cases.

When I was putting together this episode, I realized it was going to be pretty different than a lot of my other episodes. At first, I wasn't sure I'd be able to put together a full-length episode, because like I mentioned, there's just not a lot of details out there about the crime. There's a ton out there about Deanna, but we know next to nothing about how she was actually killed.

In my research, I do look around to see what, you know, what type of media coverage these cases get. Have they been featured on a lot of podcasts, a lot of YouTube videos? Are they on Unsolved Mysteries? I have this entire section for media coverage in my research. And Deanna's case just hasn't been covered a lot, and that really made me start to think, and I guess kind of realize that that, in my opinion, is probably largely because we don't have a lot of details about how she died.

Like, I kind of went over in the episode, there's no, like, crazy crime scene to go over, we don't have a ton of persons of interest for me to, like, look into their background and tell you their entire arrest history and speculate on whether or not they did it. And unfortunately, I do think that that hurts Deanna's case in terms of getting media coverage. I don't think a lot of people want to report, you know, two or three pages or whatever about what Deanna was like.

And I think instead of going into a very long conversation about why that is in the true crime industry, I'm just going to leave it at that. Other than that, I do want to mention my Patreon and my brand new series, Dark Truth. Now, if you're not on my Patreon, Dark Truth is a series where I kind of talk about things within the breadth of justice, if you will, but things that aren't as urgent as what I cover over here.

It's basically stuff I'm interested in that I think people should know about. So I covered things like, oh Marley's scratching, but I covered things like, you know, the dark truth behind Black Friday, how Black Friday happened, and if you're really getting good deals. I also covered Halloween candy panic and whether or not you really need to be afraid of, you know, going trick-or-treating or if that's all perpetrated by the media.

Most recently, I covered the reality TV show cult classic at this point, Kid Nation. And if you don't remember, not to spoil it for you, but they broke kind of a lot of labor laws. I mean, not officially, but they skirted around it. I talk about it in the episode. And ultimately, a kid drank bleach. They had one outhouse for 40 kids. It was a mess.

So like I said, it's not, you know, urgent like a missing person or trying to solve a murder, but they're topics that I care about. In the future, I plan to cover things like the CSI effect and the effect that that's having on juries and things like influencer scams.

So again, it is a little bit more lighthearted over there, but most of all, it's just stuff I'm interested in outside of these actual cases. So if for whatever reason you want to hear me talk more, or you just want to support the show and what we do, I would love it if you hopped over to Patreon and considered it. It starts at $5, it goes all the way up to $20 if you want stuff like stickers and shirts. But for $5, you get it all. And you get ad-free episodes of these episodes as well.

Can you tell how awkward I am trying to plug the Patreon? I love the content I make over there, and I love being able to interact with you guys, but I hate talking about Patreon. So thank you for tolerating me. I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.