Best of 2022 Replay Kara Robinson Chamberlain
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This is Jessica Noll, host of the new series Back in Crime. If you're a follower of true crime, you're probably familiar with some of the most shocking stories from our history. Horrific tragedies like the Columbine Massacre. He turned the gun straight at us and shot. Oh my God, the window went out. And the kid standing there with me, I think he got hit. And notorious criminals like cult leader Charles Manson.

In a scene described by one investigator as reminiscent of a weird religious rite, five persons, including actress Sharon Tate, were found dead at the home of Miss Tate and her husband, screen director Roman Poliansky. But what if we were to turn back the hands of time and relive these events as they unfolded? Follow along each week as we take a fresh look at crimes from the past. Back in Crime is available now.

My name is Sarah Turney, and this is Voices for Justice.

Today, I am discussing a story of survival. The story of Kara Robinson Chamberlain. Back in 2002, when Kara was just 15 years old, she was in the front yard of her friend's home in Columbia, South Carolina, when a man approached her. At first, he seemed friendly.

He asked if her parents were home, saying he just wanted to drop off some pamphlets. Kara explained that it wasn't her house and her friend's mother wasn't home. This is when the man pulled out a gun, pressed it against her neck, and forced Kara into a storage bin in the back of his vehicle. Kara was held and assaulted for 18 hours before she escaped.

Through the information she was able to provide to law enforcement, they discovered that the man who took her was Richard Evonitz. And he wasn't just a kidnapper and a pedophile. He was a serial killer. Before taking Kara, he'd killed three other girls from the state of Virginia. 16-year-old Sophia Silva in 1996.

and sisters, 15-year-old Kristen Lisk and 12-year-old Katie Lisk in 1997. At the age of 15, Kara Robinson Chamberlain not only heroically escaped her captor, she helped police catch a serial killer before he could kill again. Her story is nothing short of incredible. The thing is, it's not my story to tell."

So I invited Kara on the podcast to tell her story in her own words. In addition to discussing what happened in 2002, Kara and I discuss her experience with the media, how we really feel about the term closure, and ethics in true crime as it specifically relates to consent in telling stories of survival like Kara's. We have a lot to discuss, so let's get into it.

This is the case of Kara Robinson Chamberlain. All right. Well, Kara, thank you for coming on the podcast to tell your story and also talk true crime with me. Before we get into everything, can you introduce yourself to my listeners? Yes, absolutely. Thank you for having me. I am Kara Robinson Chamberlain. I am 35 years old and I am a survivor of a serial killer.

Wow. Whenever I hear... I have watched your interviews and every time I hear that, it just...

It takes my breath away. And so I do want to talk about all things true crime with you, especially consent when it comes to telling stories of survival like yours. And I also want to highlight all of the amazing things that you do. But before we get to all of that, I just want to stay kind of in chronological order and start with, you know, your story. And I want to start with, you know, I would love to know kind of what your childhood was like. You know, did the area you lived in feel safe? I'm sure you've been asked this a million times, but I just kind of want to set the scene a little.

Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in Lexington, South Carolina. I grew up riding horses and I was an animal lover and I rode go-karts and dirt bikes. It was a kind of more rural area. I had friends who lived in a little bit of more like a suburban area. And so it was definitely a safe kind of place. We never really

really knew anyone who my my friends and I we didn't know anyone who had been victims of crime by any means nothing nothing crazy you know this was the early 2000s so it was just you didn't hear about things like you do now I think now with the internet you hear more and so I think it's a little more intimidating to hear all these bad things that happened but that was that was not the case then yeah no it makes total sense like I knew growing up in my neighborhood

I didn't live in the best neighborhood and there were definitely those houses that you tried to avoid. So I kind of grew up with that paranoid, I guess, feeling, if you will, that anything could happen. The neighborhood could be a little scary, but it wasn't like that for you. So I have to imagine that obviously all of this really took you by surprise. I mean, you were 15, you're at your friend's house, you're watering the plants and all of a sudden this happens. And again, I don't want to speak for you, but yeah, do you want to walk us through that day?

Yeah, absolutely. So like you said, I was at my friend's house. I had stayed the night there. We were getting ready for our day. We decided we were going to go to the lake. And so she wanted to get ready to take a shower. She called her mom and asked if there was anything that we needed to do before we left. And her mom asked her to water the plants outside. So I said, OK, I'll do that. That way we can get out of the house a little bit faster. You take a shower. I'll water the plants. And so I was outside doing that. And

And I noticed a car on the way out of the neighborhood and I was getting ready to get my license. So I was kind of paying attention to cars. I think that's a car that I would like. And it was going on the way out of the neighborhood when I noticed that. And shortly after it came back into the neighborhood and pulled directly into the driveway. Now, I had heard the stranger danger. Don't talk to strangers kind of talk.

But I was, you know, I was 15 years old. I had never experienced anything scary like that. And I had also heard a story from my friend that her mom had someone that had pulled into the driveway and stopped a few days previously that had seen her outside. And it was like a high school friend or something. So I had just heard this story. So no red flags went up, anything like that.

a man got out. He looked very normal. You know, it's not the, the creepy bad guy that we grew up seeing on like America's most wanted or unsolved mysteries. Right. So it was very normal looking guy. And he walked over to me and told me he had some pamphlets that he was giving out. And he saw me outside and asked if he could give them to me. And he stayed a

a respectable distance away from me. I had no issues with him entering my personal space. And I said, well, this is my friend's house and her mom's not home. And he said, okay, well, I'll just give them to you and you can leave them for her mom.

I said, OK. And so at that point, he was kind of standing across from me and he entered into my personal space at that point to hand me the pamphlets, which, again, would have been normal. So while I was looking down at those, he put his arm around the right side of my neck and he had a small caliber handgun that he could conceal behind his hand. And he said, why don't you come with me? And I said, stop. And he again said, why don't you come with me?

And I knew that it was a gun. I could feel, you know, the cold metal. And so he walked me around with his arm around my neck the whole time. He walked me around to the driver's side of his car and he opened the car door and he put the two-door car, he put the seat forward and told me to get into the car. I looked in the back seat and there was a big plastic container back there. And I said, where do I go? And he said, get in the container. I

And so I did. I got into the container. He loosely set the lid on top and he got in the car. He pulled out of the driveway and he drove away. And so that was the beginning of this ordeal. And and I I knew from the very beginning that I would escape. There was never a question in my mind.

He said, okay, this guy is going to let his guard down at some point. He's going to get complacent and that will be my chance to escape. So I was just praying the whole time that I would see an opportunity to escape and gathering information for when that moment did come. So the first thing that I started paying attention to were the turns that we were taking, trying to see where we were and, um,

then I felt us get onto the interstate. And at that point, I realized that I would no longer know where we were. So I was memorizing the songs that were on the radio. There was a serial number on the inside of the container. I memorized that. So just, it was the beginning of me kind of cataloging this information, anything that might be helpful.

So he drove for about 10 minutes before he pulled over. And at that point, he put handcuffs on me and a gag in my mouth and drove another couple of minutes before he stopped the car and took the container with me in it into his apartment. So that began an 18-hour ordeal of

Me being held captive, being sexually assaulted multiple times. So I was there with him. Didn't know his name, but was trying to gather information about him for my escape. Because like I said, I knew I was going to escape. And that's what I did. I mean...

Wow. I get chills every time I hear you tell that story. And in my research, I've heard you tell it several times. But every time, it just astounds me. And I have to ask, how did you know to do that? I mean, it sounds like you remained so calm. You focused on the end solution. You were looking for any type of identifiers that could help lead back to this guy. How did you know to do that? Or did it just happen? Yeah.

I think that the human will to survive is something that we can never underestimate. And I had never been told what to do in this type of situation, but there was something inside of me. There was an intuition that knew, okay, this guy has taken me. Grown men don't take young girls unless they want to do harm to them in some way, shape or form. And I somehow had an intuition also that

He would want me to be emotional and

I am very stubborn and I refuse to give that to him. So my survival mechanism was, OK, we're going to lock all of that down because it's too much for us to deal with. Right. So a very common trauma coping mechanism is to shut down all of your emotions because it's too much for your body to process. So that was very much what my survival mechanism was.

And then that allowed me to be very rational and very, you know, factual and say, OK, so I'm going to escape. This is how I'm going to do it. And when I do get out of here, I need to have information. So it was very much my survival mechanism more than anything.

I mean, I just I think it's brilliant. I just can't commend you enough. I know that it's it's not exactly voluntary. So in the same breath, I want to say if somebody couldn't do the same thing, that that's OK. I just you know, I just think you're incredible. And I'm sure everybody listening really wants to know, how did you escape? How did you do it?

So I knew that the first thing that I would have to do is to escape the restraints first. And so my hands were in handcuffs. There was a quick link that was attached to a rope that was attached to kind of the frame of the bed. And I had to...

unscrew that quick link and I actually had to use my teeth to like loosen it and then slide my handcuffs out of that and then I reached down my leg again he's still sleeping next to me and undid the restraint on my leg and then split out of the bed at that point I was able to get one of my hands out of the handcuffs kind of squeeze it out and found my shorts and went

went to the front door and realized there was all this stuff in the way of the front door. It was, there were several moments where, you know, I woke up and I was like, okay, this is it. I'm going to be safe now. And, you know, I got out of this bed. I just have to get out the door. And then I got to the door and I was like, Oh no, there's all these noisy things that I have to move. And this is a very small apartment. And so I somehow was able to move all of those things and throw the door open. And I thought, okay,

He is sleeping right next to the window that looks out on this front door. He's going to look out. There's a gun right next to the bed. He's going to shoot me. And I just thought, you know what? So what?

If he shoots me, it doesn't matter. I'm out. Someone's going to see me. And so I just I ran. There was a car driving across the parking lot. I ran out in front of it and kind of waved my arms and held my arm up. And I said, I my name is Kara Robinson. And I was kidnapped and I escaped that apartment and turned around and pointed to it and asked them to remember the apartment and asked them to take me to law enforcement, which they did.

Wow. I'm like tearing up. It's just so incredible that you got away and I'm obviously so happy that you got away. I mean, you must have been just absolutely terrified. Were you still scared when you got to the police station? You know, I think, I don't think that I had an emotional connection for a very, very long time. When I think of how I felt in that moment, there's

there's very little emotion that's connected to it, which enables me to go and talk about it so openly and so freely. Because again, that was my survival mechanism. Now my body recognized the fear, right? So very much I could feel my heart beating out of my chest, right? And then when I was running, the one and only time I've experienced that tunnel vision, which is a trauma response to where I could just even

Even if I close my eyes and think of it, I can see like the white car driving across the parking lot. And it's just like, like what you see on Star Trek when they go in light speed, right? So I know that my body was feeling, feeling a lot, but in my brain, there wasn't a lot of emotion. Yeah. I mean, that's totally fair. Yeah.

And I know that at a certain point, you're told that this man, you're not the only person that this man has taken and that in fact, he had killed three other girls. You know, I do want to honor them and their lives, but I do also want to ask you, how did that make you feel to realize that it could have gone a lot worse for you? Yeah, it's very complicated because...

He told me when I was there that he was going to, quote, let me go whenever he was done with me and that it was my choice if I went to law enforcement and was always known as the girl who was raped. That was the way he worded it. It kind of like stuck in the back of my brain.

but I genuinely believed that he was going to let me go. So law enforcement responded to his apartment. He was obviously gone. They very quickly found evidence that led them to believe he may be tied to these three previous murders in Virginia in 96 and 97. And I heard it and I thought, well, we always think that we're different, right? We always think, well, maybe.

but I think it would have been different for me. It took me a very long time to come to grips and understand that no, he definitely would have killed me. And I think

I think it's still, I'm still processing it. Here we are almost 20 years later. And I think I'm very much still processing what that means. And I think it could be very easy to get caught up in the what if. And, you know, if I wouldn't have escaped, I'm like, but I did. Right. But I did. So I just kind of try to focus on what actually did happen. And like you said, honor the memories of those three girls. And yeah, that's the best we can do.

Yeah, no, that makes total sense to me. And I understand that when they track this guy down, which I'm purposely not using his name because he doesn't need to be named exactly. Thank you. When they track this guy down, he ends up taking his own life, which means you didn't get to give that victim impact statement. And, you know, I can imagine how you'd feel. But again, I'm not here to speak for you. So I want to ask, you know, how did that make you feel? And did it impede any of, you know, your healing process?

It made me angry, especially then as a 15 year old girl. I was I was mad because I I just thought I outsmarted this guy. Like he picked me because he thought I was going to be an easy victim and I wasn't. And.

I wanted him to know that his victim of opportunity was the biggest mistake that he ever made. And so I wanted to sit in court across from him and look him in the eyes and for him to recognize that I was his downfall.

Now, as time has passed, I've realized that I'm incredibly lucky that it ended that way for several reasons, because I never had to go to court. I never had to have all of the details of what happened to me during those 18 hours put on the stand and told in front of my parents or the media. I will never have to worry about him getting

getting out of jail or, you know, being up for parole, which I know, I don't think that would have happened anyway, but I don't have to worry about him consuming space. So I think it has made a lot of things easier for me because I can just be like, oh yeah, this is a thing that happened. And it's not, I'm not perpetually being traumatized and perpetually living in that trauma. I could just say, okay, this happened. And then I got to move on from it because he no longer was here.

Yeah. No, actually, that makes so much sense to me. Yeah. No, 100%. I mean, I think it is a blessing you didn't have to go through that. I know that those court proceedings can be extremely traumatizing to have to relive all that. So that makes total sense. I do want to ask, you know, about your path to recovery, if you can even, I feel like it's such like a weird word, just like closure, right? Like what's recovery? What's closure? But how did you deal with all of this? And

You know, I guess coming out to the other end where you actually joined law enforcement. I just want to know a little bit about that journey. Yeah. So the the real answer for how did I deal with it? I didn't. I didn't.

did not deal with it. So for, I would say a good 15 years, I thought that was just something that happened. It literally doesn't affect me. For 15 years, I've told myself this story. It doesn't affect me. I have no emotional connection to it. Took a very long time to realize how it was affecting me, which the biggest thing is that I, like I said, I felt no feelings towards that. Well, when dissociation and complacency

compartmentalization becomes your coping mechanism, it affects everything. So I realized about five or six years ago that I had been suppressing all of my emotions. And so I wasn't experiencing the full depth of feelings and emotions that we as humans should be experiencing. And I began to kind of dismantle that and what that looked like and realized that I was also having some health issues from

just being in this constant state of fight or flight, because even if we don't recognize our emotions, our body does, our body feels those emotions. And so this is definitely something I'm still trying to work through. And it's been a lot of self-care and a lot of reconnecting with myself. I have not found a version of therapy that I have found helpful yet. And I think that's because everything is just

so deep down and there's, there's previous trauma before that. Just kind of like chaotic childhood in general. So there's a lot. And I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I love that because everybody talks like therapy is the end all be all of answers. And sometimes it's just not, I am someone where I feel like traditional therapy never really worked for me. So I'm just, I'm really glad that you said that. Yes. Yeah. I think, you know,

That was one of the things that I got a lot after my kidnapping. People saying, oh, you have to go to therapy. You have to. And I was like, well, first of all, don't tell me what I have to do because I would like to exert my own will over myself. And I tried it. I've tried it several times. And I just...

felt like I've always been able to talk about it. So talking about it with someone else wasn't helpful for me. So I'm in the process of exploring different things. And, and I think that you will understand this as well, that whenever you have not just one big traumatic experience, but you have a series of things that are stressful to your little body when you're smaller, and they wouldn't be a big capital T trauma, right? They would be several

smaller traumas. I think it's, I think that talk therapy is a little more difficult because like, I don't know. I just like, I feel like Bane where it's like, you merely adapted to the darkness. I was born into it. Right. Like, I'm like, I don't, I don't talk therapy is not going to help me process through kind of what was just

uh a low level of chaos my entire life so yeah and that's you know not to say anything bad about my particular upbringing my parents um but it's just we all have to find our own way and for me therapy was was not something that was helpful in general so far that could change yeah no fair enough fair enough and i'm sorry i kind of segued you because i was so passionate about that topic um but yeah

Yeah. I mean, and we're going to, we're going to get into all of that. I can't wait to talk ethics and everything with you. But let, I want to, I want to ask how you got into law enforcement. I want to go back to that because I think it's, I mean, I think I can imagine the answer, but I want to hear it from you. Yeah. So I, it's, it's funny because it's not the path that I think a lot of people would assume I followed to get there. So following my kidnapping,

I was inundated with law enforcement. There were victims advocates. I was kidnapped from one County and taken to the next County. So I had law enforcement from three different jurisdictions that were just showing up at my house and people and just so many people. And so I,

I had one particular person who was a leader in law enforcement who came to my house a few days after I was kidnapped and remember 15 years old, just gone through this big trauma. I believe that he was not going to kill me, right? Because that's what he had told me. We had no evidence at that point to believe anything different because he was not linked to the murders in Virginia at that point. And so I have this law enforcement official who comes to my house and says,

Well, you know he was going to kill you, right? Like, you know you should be dead right now? And I was like, no, I don't. I don't believe that to be true. So I used that story kind of as a juxtaposition to the other sheriff, who is still currently the sheriff of Richland County, Sheriff Lott, who...

He really just elevated me and treated me like a survivor from day one. And that's, he's a very, very big part of why I am who I am today, but he is the reason that I went into law enforcement. So he treated me like a survivor. He gave me awards for bravery and he took me to dinner and helped me to present an award to the two men who took me to law enforcement.

He also, a year after my kidnapping, offered me a job working administratively in law enforcement with him. So I started working, doing administrative work with victim services with Richland County in 2003. And so I did that during the summer through high school. And then I, when I was home from college, when I was local, I was working there administratively again, um,

until I graduated college. And at that point, the sheriff said, I was getting ready to graduate. And I thought I wanted to be a teacher. And he said, okay, well, if that's what you want to do, then by all means, please do that. He said, but if there's a way that we can keep you here and we can combine law enforcement with teaching, would you be open to that? And I said, yeah, try it. And so I went to be a school resource officer, which is essentially law enforcement that is in schools

obviously to protect the children if anything should happen, but also to educate the children about law enforcement, about safety, things like that. And so that's when I started in law enforcement. And I realized that I actually really loved law enforcement. I love talking to people. I loved helping people. And I had essentially grown up in this agency. So it felt

very much like home for me to continue to be there. I had worked there from 16 until, you know, I was 21 at that point. And so I went to the academy. I was like, oh, I really like this. And so I continued to work there. I, after I was a school resource officer, I worked in investigations. I worked child abuse and sexual assault cases for a while. And then I worked in victim assistance. And that's a sworn position. And I did that until the birth of my first child.

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Wow. Well, okay. So I do have to take a step back because I've heard you tell this story and I need you to tell it here about in your training class. You know, you're in there one day, you're learning how to be a school resource officer and you see the pictures of the girls who were victims of this guy and you were obviously taken aback. Can you walk me through the story? Were you used to seeing these photos like all over the news or was this like kind of new to you at this point?

So I obviously, when I was kidnapped, there was news about it. I didn't really do much in the way of like press or media. I talked to John Walsh about it, but that was about it. He had a talk show at the time. So I went on there, but I had not done anything. So if someone personally knew my story and wanted to talk about it, I would very openly talk to them about it. But as far as on a broad scale,

broad platform. I had not told my story. There were several people that I worked with at the sheriff's firm who didn't even know my story. And so I went to the academy and I was sitting there after break to come back and the, you know, cover for the slideshow of the presentation that we're going to be doing is up. And it's a photo of the three girls from Virginia. And I just, I looked at it and I went, I mean, internally, can I say shit?

Yeah. Okay. Like, I don't know. So, so I saw the photo and internally I just thought, oh shit.

That was, that was my immediate thought. I was just like, Oh God, what, like, what are they going to say? So I had seen their photos. You know, I was, I was familiar with their case, but I just thought I'm going to be outed in front of my, my entire law enforcement class here of, you know, 40, 40 people. They're about to hear my story and they don't know about it. And this is going to be so awkward. And so the way she told the story, she did not have any photos of me. So I'm

She said, you know, nobody knew what happened to these girls until in 2002, this girl from South Carolina named Kara. And I think there were like one or two people that kind of turned around in their seats and like,

Wait a second. And so I think maybe a couple people might have made the connection. And then after class, I went up to the instructor and I said, hey, I just want to let you know that Kara kind of like pointed to the presentation. And I said, Kara is amazing.

Tara and pointed to myself and her face. I mean, just totally gobsmacked. She was just, I think her reaction was probably, oh shit. Right. Yeah. I'm sure she was like mortified. Yeah. And she said, oh my God, I am so sorry. And I said, it's okay. And she said, yeah,

But did I get everything right? That was her second question, right? And I said, you did a pretty good job. And you're like, no, nobody gets it right. Actually, no one ever gets it right. You did a decent job. And I said, yeah, you did a pretty good job. And she said, okay, you know, I obviously am going to tell the other people at the academy to hire up. And they came to me a couple days later and they said, we would really like to present you with an award at graduation.

And I said, okay, well, I'm obviously going to have to tell my class. We were a very close law enforcement academy class. I said, I'm obviously going to have to tell them because, you know, we've been here together for, by the end, for several weeks. And they're going to be like, why is she getting an award? She's done the same thing we have, right? Yeah, your friends and stuff. Right, yeah. And so I told them and they were just, they were all like, wow, wow.

amazing so I got an award it's actually behind me here on the shelf oh wow no yeah I mean that's super sweet though yeah yeah so I got an award for um courage and bravery at the academy at my graduation but it was very surreal it's very bizarre to hear that story told it just the whole time I have no idea what she said honestly

Yeah. Like now thinking back on it, because I think the whole time I was just like internally, I was like, oh, no. Oh, no. Well, and the trauma of it, like I have the worst trauma memory. Like when stuff like that happens, it's like, like, it's just out of my brain. So, yeah. Yeah, totally. I just checked out. All I could think of is.

is anybody going to figure it out? So it was, it was very weird. And now, you know, I've talked to her since and she's like, I will never forget that day. It's like steered into my brain. I'm like, me too. Don't worry. Like, I don't blame her, obviously. She was, it was a very important like lesson to tell the story. And, but because it was, I think that that particular case was about missing persons. And, and so she was kind of tying it into a case that was local. And so, but yeah,

Yeah, it was very weird.

I really wanted to feature survivor stories because here, you know, every episode ends with this call to action. And I wanted to kind of prove to people that these aren't just hopes and wishes and dreams. These calls to action, taking action, these cases can lead to recovery, you know. And so I featured the case of your friend, Elizabeth Smartt.

and I felt uncomfortable doing it. I listened to it again, and you can tell I was uncomfortable doing it. Like even when I got to the details, you know, of her kidnapping and the horrible things that happened to her, I stopped myself and I was like, go read her book, go to her content because it made me so uncomfortable. But I think that that should have been a sign to me that I shouldn't have done it at all. But like for me, I was so focused on the fact that of course she has this amazing story and I cannot give her enough credit. You know, she is very much, uh,

huge part of why she was able to escape. And I don't want to take that away from her. And I feel uncomfortable even speaking for her now. But one of the main reasons I really wanted to feature the case was because of the way that it was solved, the way that she was recovered. The fact that John Walsh and her family advocated for this information to get to the media, the sketch of the gentleman who took her,

you know, that ultimately helped to lead to her recovery. It led to people seeing that face, to these people making the calls. They saw her at the Burger King and she was found. And I thought that was really powerful. It was a true example of, you know, go above and beyond for these stories. You see something, you say something, you help these people,

But now, you know, I feel like I owe Elizabeth an apology and I will do that privately. That's not something to air publicly on this podcast. It's not something I can apologize to you for. You know what I mean? And you do that in a roundabout way. So I wanted to come clean that I feel like I'm guilty of exactly what we're about to talk about. But I also want to show people that you can learn and grow. You know, obviously, I had the best intentions.

I still want to make that apology. And I know you can't speak for everyone. You can't speak for every survivor out there. But I want to ask you, I have you here. How does it make you feel when people feature your story without contacting you, without your consent? How does it feel when you just see it pop up?

Frustrated. That's like the best word I can give because first of all, this is not always the case, but myself, I am not hard to find. Like if you search for Kara Robinson or Kara Chamberlain or Kara Robinson Chamberlain, my website is the first thing that pops up. It is very easy to find me and it has been for a while. So it's pretty inexcusable in my opinion to not at least reach out while I may not

be able or willing to participate, at least ask if it's okay. And bare, bare minimum, tag me in social media. I think that there is this mentality of, especially for those of us who are public survivors, who have told our story in a public format, there's this mentality of, well, it's already out there. So

It's not illegal for me to share it. Right. And it's like legality and ethics are not the same. Right. Like just because it's legal doesn't mean it's OK. And so I think that there just really needs to be a shift in allowing survivors to tell their own story and at the very least allow them to have consent over telling their own story, because it's

if you bring it down to like the absolute basics, most of these stories are of people who have had their consent taken away in some way, shape or form. So for other people to be telling their story without their consent or without their knowledge or without, you know, pointing back to them, it is taking their consent. I mean,

at the end of the day, you are, you are victimizing us by telling those stories. And I, and I obviously don't say that to make you feel bad. I don't know. I'm a girl. I can own up to what I did. You know what I mean? And that's why I came clean. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so important for people to see people like you who say I messed up, like I was doing the best that I can. And

I think that most people are doing the best they can. They, you know, hear these stories and they're like, wow, this is an amazing story. I want to share it. I want to tell it. But at the end of the day, like you said, with my professor at the Academy sharing the story, other people telling my story, they get things wrong. Listen, I, it's been 20 years. I will tell parts and I'm like, wait, is that right? And it's my story, right? So even I,

can say things that are wrong. So obviously, just like a game of telephone, when someone else tells my story, it gets things wrong. And so I just think it's so empowering and impactful for those of us who are survivors to continue to move towards survival and being a thriver to really own our stories. And I think it's just too easy

to point back to most of us or to get consent. And I just, I would like to see more ethically thought out content because this true crime genre, like it's taking off, right? Like it's the number one genre, I think right now for podcasts and television. And so I get it, but at the end of the day,

the people consuming it and the people who are producing it need to understand that there is a human behind that story. And you are taking something that is, you know, probably the most personal thing to them and who they are and, and you are sharing it and giving it without their consent. And just like we know that consent that's given once in, for instance, a,

a sexual encounter just because you gave consent once, it doesn't mean that you give blanket consent. I think that that's something that needs to be understood with the sharing of stories as well. Just because I consented once for my story to be shared doesn't mean that I blanket give you consent to share it. So I think there's a lot to be learned and I think there's a lot of lessons and I think as long as we

all approach it with compassion and understand that we are all humans who make mistakes. I think that we can produce this content in a way that honors survivors and really helps them to continue to thrive. No, absolutely. Well, and you know, you said something great there at the end talking about honoring survivors. So I have to ask you,

How does it make you feel when people focus on, you know, the serial killer aspect and about, you know, all about him and all about his background and why did he do what he did? And that's the kind of stuff, like I understand that there is educational value in studying people like that by people who have accredited backgrounds, studying people like that so that they can understand patterns and help hopefully prevent this. I understand that point. What I don't understand is,

is why that focus comes so often in true crime. Like what is the point of giving this person so much attention? And I figure if I'm already kind of irritated about it, it has to make you feel some type of way. So I want to ask you, how does that make you feel? Yeah. So I see that. And what I understand is we as humans who would never,

victimize someone in that way, hear these stories and we think, how does someone end up like this? Like my brain can't comprehend how someone could think that it is the best idea to kidnap someone, right? Or murder someone. Like I can't comprehend that. So I think that human nature is to try to understand why other people are different. And so I think that that's why a lot of people want to consume that. But

you just, you, if you are consuming it, I would encourage you to consider how it would make someone who has been through that scenario feel to know that, you know, their photo is there beside their offender, their captor, right? So, you know, when I see my photo and then his photo together, like, it's not about him, right? So I think

I don't think it necessarily glorifies. I think a lot of people use that term that it glorifies this offender. But at the end of the day, if you want to empower survivors and you want to encourage them to thrive,

then you want to let them take that ownership and let the story be about them and what they did. And when you focus so much on the offender, it really kind of takes away from their story. And it continues to let that person have some type of say and control and influence in their life, right? So

If you're talking about their offender, well, that person still has some influence in their life. And really, like, ultimately, that's not what we want. We want to move forward and move and move through it and continue to grow from it.

You know, I think for me, I see that more as trying to understand things. And when I look at it, I think I actually just had this conversation recently with someone else. When I see people who do bad things, I think, wow, they must be really broken. Like they must there must be something really just broken inside of them and not. I mean, it's different.

in a case-to-case basis um because I I personally and I I personally don't have issue with forgiving my my factor um and I think there's a lot of reasons it's my lack of emotional connection it's the way that I dealt with it it's the fact that he's not here right um but I think that

We just all have to find our own way to deal with that. And if that is more injuring for you to consider, well, why did they turn out this way? Then you just don't consider it. But for me, I think I see that and I just...

I think people are trying to find a reason and I don't think it's justification, right? I think people are just trying to understand maybe because they've been through hard things or they've had someone who has victimized them and they never got an answer for why. And at the end of the day, there's no why. You're never going to get an answer to why someone did that because there are bad people, because people make mistakes and sometimes they are

knowingly making mistakes and sometimes they're small and sometimes they're gigantic. And at the end of the day, it's not my question. It's not my responsibility to question why somebody did something. Like the answer is because there are bad people. That's it. There are bad people in the world.

No, exactly. It's like, I don't think that there can be a good enough reason that makes you feel better about it in any way. Like, like, oh, they were having a bad day. Like, yeah, like that doesn't make you feel any better. Like you're like, no, like, I don't know. I have a, I have a weird thing with closure and answers. I just feel like it's a myth. Yeah. It's like, it's like a feel good subject that isn't really there. You know what I mean? It's just, it doesn't mean anything. I feel like it's just, yeah. Closure doesn't exist. I think that there's, um,

you know, this misconception that we have to have some type of closure or we have to have some type of retribution or there has to be prosecution or there has to be some way to tie this up with a pretty little bow. But at the end of the day, that's a total myth. Like those of us who have been through hard things every day is going to look different. And we really have to let our healing be our thing that's not dependent on finding the

the reason why somebody did something or let our healing be dependent on, you know, a conviction or, um, whatever it could be. Right. Like I think our healing has to be our own thing and it, it just can't be dependent on the why. Yeah, no, that makes total sense. Um,

So, I mean, we touched on, you know, creators covering these stories. And as much as I wish every creator to go out there and ask for consent, I don't think that's going to happen. So I have to ask, what can true crime creators and true crime consumers do to help support survivors like you?

I think the biggest thing that you could do is let's say you're consuming content of someone telling someone else's story. Look at that content, look in the comments, look if they in their words or, you know, see if they are tagging back to the creator. So one of the biggest ways to find out if a a

a survivor is giving consent is obviously if they are on the podcast or they are being interviewed, obviously they have been, well, you know, you can't even say that because people could very easily take my words, right? Like I'm sure you've experienced that where they can take your words. Yeah. So, you know, I think reaching out to the creator or the survivor, I think, you

tagging them, right? Or reaching out to them personally, sending them a message and saying, Hey, I don't know if you saw this. And I have seen so many YouTube videos of people covering my story. And I get on YouTube, and I leave a comment. I'm like, Hey, as the survivor, it would be very helpful if you want to actually do something with this, you want to actually empower people, like at the very least tag back to me, right post links to my social media. Because

At the end of the day, for me, sharing is kind of just the beginning, right? It's like the base of the pyramid for me. There's so much that comes after that. I share my story so that I can share my healing, so that I can help empower people, so I can help reach people. So sharing my story is just kind of the very beginning for me. So if you want to empower me and help me empower other people,

and this goes for any survivors, I think that just being a conscious consumer and looking for those podcasts who are supportive, who are considering their words and how they talk about these things. I think the more that people like you and I talk about what it means to ethically create true crime content, the more people will kind of

realize how much content is out there where it's just not

helping people just kind of consuming people's brains and so look for tag backs that's like the bare minimum right like a tag back to the creator where at least or you know the survivor I keep saying creator but the survivor tagging back to their social media or pointing pointing back to them in some way shape or form so that they can maintain ownership but I mean ultimately I just

I just wish people wouldn't tell other people's stories, but I know that's not going to happen.

No, and that's fair. And I think that you're, you know, I have to say that, you know, when it comes to missing people or like these stories that need urgent attention, like I get why other people tell these stories. You know what I mean? There's a missing person. You know, I see all the time like missing children and I see nobody fighting for them publicly. And I'm like, I just want to help. You know what I mean? So and that's very different. No, it's very different. Right. No, and that's exactly my point. Exigent needs.

And yeah, and that's exactly my point is unless there's some direct call to action, which we'll get to, I am going to ask you to do a call to action because that's what we're all about here on Voices for Justice. But unless there's some way to actively help, you know what I mean, or feature some type of learning moment, I do feel like it's different. Like why, you know, for me personally,

In true crime, intentions are everything. So it's why are you telling this story? Why are you telling it the way that you are? Why are you focusing on the things that you're focusing on? Is it to get downloads? Because a lot of the time I think it is. And I'm sure that you've heard your story told in a million different ways. And I'm sure you can see it from a mile away. People who are in it maybe for better reasons than others. I mean, how do you feel about all that?

I'm so glad that you asked that question because it touches on something that I myself have kind of struggled with, which is why am I telling my story even? Right. So the why behind it, I think is.

Is very important. So are they telling it to highlight to point back to that person? But with myself personally, I struggled with that because I was sharing my story for a while before I had my children. And I kind of stopped because I felt like, why am I doing this? I wanted there to be, you know, an engine driving this train. Why are we doing it?

Are we doing it to empower survivors, to have a teachable moment? I think that that's another way to just consciously consume. And I think that once you begin looking at it, it becomes very apparent, I think, once you're aware of it. Why are they telling this story? And

I think that there are plenty of people who who tell stories for a reason. And I think that's very important as long as we are able to take a lesson from it or, like you said, have a call to action. I think that that can be very helpful. But the just the sharing to share, telling the story just to consume it, just to tell the story, I think can be very problematic for a lot of reasons.

Yeah. I mean, I think I just see it all the time. You see these big features, you know, especially when it comes to serial killers. I feel like it's just such a hot topic and true crime. It always like it's I mean, I don't cover serial killers, so I don't know. But I imagine that it's a hot topic. And I mean, I see it. I see the view. You know what I mean? I study this market. I'm in this market. I know which topics get more attention than others. And serial killers will always get attention. It's just it's just one of those things. Yeah.

But yeah, I do have to question why people do it. I have to wonder, are you doing it to help? Are you making jokes about these serial killers online?

Because, like, why? Because you think it's funny? Because you think it's quirky? Like, I don't know. Maybe, and I know, not maybe, I know that I'm a very sensitive person and I get so defensive of people I talk about. I get so defensive of survivors, of victims, everybody. And I don't know. It just, it doesn't sit right with me. There's something about it that just feels very exploitative, very gross to me.

to just kind of mock these survivors and you know the people who lost their lives when you have a t-shirt that says you know what is it it's like choke me like dom or eat me like dommer and choke me like bundy or whatever and it's like god it's so bad and it is one of the if you if you google true crime t-shirts you will see the most horrendous stuff come up and it's like

I will tell you no other vertical man and no other vertical would this happen? Imagine a t-shirt like that about the Sandy Hook shooting. You know what I mean? Or about nine 11. Like it wouldn't happen. And I mean, just like you had to, you know, come clean. I myself have to come clean because again, I had no like emotional connection to my trauma. Right. And so, and I had a very different experience than so many people. So I,

For years, I never even considered. It's not that I necessarily consumed these things or promoted them, but I never considered how something like a blood spatter, you know, this is something that I think we've talked about, like a blood throw with blood spatter on it could be. So it just, I just never even thought about it, honestly, how that could be so harmful to victims. And then once you begin thinking,

when someone brings it to your attention and you begin looking at it and you see the way people present true crime, like presenting true crime, anything with a blood splatter or like even a chalk outline or, you know, the bloody knife on the cover art every time. I'm like, do you know, like, did you even stop to consider what that means? If you see blood splatter, like,

that is a human lifeblood, right? I think that it's just kind of been nonsensical and people aren't thinking about it. But I feel like the time really is very, it's a very poignant time right now for thinking about these things because I think that we've already been kind of changing all of these narratives and how we look at things with more sensitivity. And so I feel like it is a very good time to talk

to talk about these things? And what if we could do for true crime and for how we talk about victims versus survivors and offenders? What if we could do for those conversations? What has been done for LGBTQ and for race relations? And like, what if we could do for these conversations? What has been done for those conversations? Like thinking

Think of how impactful that could be for so many people, because the fact of the matter is, I think very few of us get through life without experiencing some type of trauma. It's a very human thing to experience trauma. And so, you know, what if we could change how we talk about these things and to really empower people? It could just be one of the most impactful things and one of the most healing things on just such a broad scale.

No, I agree. And I think one of the hangups, at least what I see, you know, as a true crime content creator, I mean, you are as well. You know, we're going to get to your TikTok and you taking back your own story. We're going to talk about all that. But I think one of the biggest things is that creators or even people like, you know, me, if I wasn't a creator, people like you, like there's...

They're not apt to admit that maybe I've done something that I don't really agree with now. Like, I think that maybe and maybe they're afraid of this cancel culture, right? Of, oh, my gosh, if I do this, I'm going to be done. People aren't going to listen. I'm going to.

I don't like that. Like if you really look at cancel culture, it doesn't really work. There are very few people that have really been like canceled forever and are just gone. It just doesn't really work that way. I feel like it's this scary buzzword that prevents people from just admitting that like, Hey, that was years ago or whatever. And I've grown since then. And like, in my mind, I see nothing wrong with that. Like my whole approach with ethics and true crime. Isn't like you're bad. I want you gone. It's like, Hey,

when people do a, you know, survivors, victims, family members, whatever, feel a certain way. And if you care, that would be awesome. And maybe you could pivot your content a little or be more conscious of that. I know not everybody's going to do it, but I feel like it's this overall fear of like cancel culture and people are just kind of unable to admit any wrongdoing. And I, I don't know how to change that. I hope that, you know, me talking about my experience and you talking about your experiences, it can help, but I,

I don't know. I'm shocked by the lack of people who are willing to come forward and say, hey, I've been creating true crime content for years. It's changed so much. I used to do it one way. Now I'm doing it another way. And I see why. Like people are just, I don't know. I just wish more people talked about it.

I think I truly believe they will, because I think that authenticity breeds authenticity, right? The more people are, I mean, look at even like mental health conversations in the last five, 10 years, right? Like 10 years ago, it was absolutely like unheard of for somebody to say, I'm in therapy, right? And now it's like, it's very, it's very popular. If you're like, you're not in therapy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

So, so I think the more that we talk about these things and the more people are like, hey, man, I messed up. The more it inspires other people to say, oh, like they admitted it and they're OK. And people still like them. Right. I think, you know, I just I messed up a few days ago because I was just with all this stuff with Kanye West. I was just like consuming it. I was like, oh, my God, it's so interesting. And then I was like, wait, wait, wait.

This is harmful behavior. You know, I was just caught up in this whirlwind where I was

it's so entertaining. And I was like, wait, it's kind of problematic. And it's actually harassment. Like, yeah, right. Right. But it's hard to see. Yeah, exactly. And so I had a few, a few friends who had posted something to that, to that effect. And I was like, oh, I messed up. And I immediately owned up. I was like, hey, I might've messed up. Like I, I, I found it entertaining and I, but I think the more that people see all

other people apologizing and what that looks like and what true humility looks like, the more other people will do it. So all that to say, just keep doing it because the more we are authentic, the more other people will hopefully follow suit.

Yeah. And I feel like that's a great way to earn respect in this industry as well. Nobody earns respect by avoiding these topics and avoiding because people call them out all the time. You see it on social media, you see it in the comments on YouTube or whatever. And I come on these creators see when a thousand people comment the same thing. They see those comments. They can say that they don't I don't read the comments. I don't read the reviews all you want. Like if a million people are telling you it, I have a really hard time believing that you never saw it. So, yeah.

I mean, hopefully, like it's all just, I don't know, for me, it's just about being a good person. And I think in the end...

It will only do you a favor if you are just honest with your audience and respect your audience. Respect your audience by being truthful with them. Like, I can't think of anything more disrespectful than that didn't have like just complete blinders. It's like these are the people who got you to where you are that give you this platform that in most cases essentially pay your bills with these, you know, at with the ad revenue. So, yeah, I'm I can talk about respect to your audience all day.

But I do want to get to you taking back your story. And of course, specifically TikTok, because I can talk about TikTok till the end of time. So how did you do it? What made you want to, you know, tell your story yourself on your own platforms?

Yeah. So I think for me, I was sharing my story after the Academy. I was going and doing speaking engagements and I didn't really know my why. I was just kind of doing it. People wanted me to come and speak. They would pay me to speak. Why not? It doesn't bother me. I stopped when I had my children because I just thought,

There wasn't a train that I didn't feel like that track was going anywhere. And so I stopped for a while. Elizabeth Smart reached out. She wanted to interview me. And I immediately said yes, because I knew that she would do it in a way that was compassionate.

And, and she did. And then I was able to do another project with her. And it was myself and six women who are all survivors and kind of telling our stories and forming connections and providing support to one another. It was something that was very healing for me. And after that, I thought, this is something that I feel like I'm good at. I feel like I'm good at telling my own story. I feel like I'm good with speaking in front of people. And

I want to be able to give to other survivors what I was very lucky to receive on that couch with those six other women. And that is the connection of speaking to people who understand your soul and the things that you have gone through that are very personal. And I realized that there are

like I said, there are so many people who go through hard things in their life and they may not have that connection to others. And so I feel like

And wanting to help other people have that connection and that form of healing was kind of what was driving me sharing. And so I realized I wanted to share my story. I wanted to help people. Ultimately, that was what it was about. I wanted to help people. And in order to do that, I needed to tell my story. And because otherwise, why would they listen to me, right? So I need to tell my story. And

Immediately, it's like, well, what's the best means to tell my story? Well, social media. And it's like, at that point, TikTok, when I first started forming this idea, TikTok wasn't really a thing. I was like, oh, well, I don't even begin to know how to make myself stand out on Instagram or Facebook or YouTube, right? There are these gigantic platforms.

monstrosities. Like how do you yell into a chasm and make yourself heard? And so then TikTok came out and I was like, well, this I can do. I can do, I think when it first started, it was what, like 30 second videos, right? Like 60 seconds weren't even a thing, much less three minutes. And so I was like, well, I can do a 30 second video, right? Like anyone could do that. And so I picked up a couple of trends and, and did a couple of videos with some of the trends. And, um,

had a couple videos go viral and there's something very very um satisfactory about TikTok and that it's it's very it's a very quick turnover because it's a fast video right it's not like

YouTube where you have to put out or a podcast, right. Where you have to put out all this content and it's just so overwhelming because where do you even start? Right. I wanted to start a podcast. It was like, Oh, you have to get a microphone. I have to figure out how to, it was just so much stuff. I can help you anytime you want with that. Yeah. Oh, there's just, how do you edit it? And so, um, but TikTok, that's easy. I can, I can do a video. And so, um,

so I started doing that. And then there's just this appeal of actually seeing people and you get this like real time, like people, bam, bam, bam commenting. And you can throw up a video response to, you know, their comment. And so it was a very organic thing for me to want to share in that way, because I could actually connect with people. And there were so, I mean, I, I

I can think of a dozen different instances where I made actual connections with people. One that really, really sticks out in my mind is someone who saw my video and was actively being trafficked at that time. And yeah, and reached out to me via DMS whenever strangers could DM you, this was, you know, back when that was, that was a thing, which I wish they would bring back. But yeah,

She sent me a message and I kind of like just talked to her. I just listened. Honestly, I don't feel like I really did anything. I just listened and supported her and just helped her to know that she was worthy and she was capable of better for herself and kind of just shared.

shepherded her through that process of escaping. She later found out she was pregnant and like what that meant to her. And, you know, had to, she had been isolated from her family. And so it was, it was just very unique in that I could actually impact people in a real way. And so that's what started kind of me sharing on TikTok and, and TikTok good, bad and worse right now. I don't,

I have a lot of feelings about TikTok. But that's kind of, yeah, that's kind of what, what started that journey. It's a very long answer, but I really wanted to help people. And TikTok was one of the first ways that I was able to just reach actual humans, right? Especially in those early days when it was, it was, it was easy. Now there's now again, TikTok's a chasm now. So it's a little bit like yelling into a chasm to get your voice heard over there. Yeah.

But that's how that started.

Yeah, no. And I agree with you about TikTok being different now. I mean, even with a million followers, I'll get videos with like 5,000 views. And I'm like, that's like mathematically impossible. Like you were showing this to like a fraction of a percent of my audience. And how the hell does that even happen? That's what I'm experiencing. Like, I think I talked, I think I got shadow banned over there, basically. And I don't think it's ever gotten lifted. Same, same.

like because I talked about too many things that were controversial I guess controversial I said sexual assault you know too many times exactly basically you didn't say anything

Right. I'm like, but it's my story. Like, so, yeah. So again, a fraction of the people see it, but I just have to ultimately hope that the people that need to see it will see it and produce content on other platforms. I'm most active on Instagram these days just because I feel like people are more likely to see the things that I create over there than they are on TikTok because I think less than a percent of people

the people that follow me on TikTok actually see my content. Oh, I know. No, I have about like, I think I have like 54,000 people on Instagram and a million on TikTok and more people see my Instagram than my TikTok. And it's like, again, I'm not a big math person, but I'm like, it doesn't matter. Whatever this is, it's not nothing. I know. It's not nothing. But I do know like,

For me, TikTok was so addicting, not just because my videos were going viral, but because, like you said, the messages I was getting. I got messages from people saying, I saw your sister's story and now I'm trying to help my sister escape from abuse. I know I got a message from a lady who, or I think she was a young woman, who said that her

her parents owned a group home for girls and they were abusing the girls. And because she heard the story, she went to police and outed them. And it's like,

That is why I do what I do. I know. I literally, I literally feel chilled. I mean, that that's why we do it. Right. I think there, there are definitely days where I'm like, social media is the worst. I don't want to do this anymore. And then, you know, within 24 hours, I'll get this message where it's like, you know, you have inspired me to do this and this. And I'm like,

me? I was like, I, what? Cause I'm just here like living my truth and sharing authentically, um, me along the journey and it's messy and, um, and just who I am really. And, and that's what helps people. And ultimately that is, that's why I keep going because I definitely have days where I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. I just want to be a normal human. And then, and then I realized that I'm impacting people's lives. And, um,

And that's why I do it. And that's why it's important to tag back to us, right? Because we can't help other people. We can't share our story and help other people without being tagged back to and without being able to have our voice. Yeah. And I don't care how good of a storyteller you are, how good of a content creator you are, whatever host you're.

And survivors, victims, you know, whatever, they're going to want to hear their story from someone who's been through it. You know what I mean? Like they they can relate better to you than they can to some detached. And I'm not saying that in a mean way. It's just these creators haven't gone through it.

So they're going to relate a lot more to your story than hearing somebody else tell it. And I think that that's really powerful and another great reason to tag back to these creators or at least, you know, in the perfect world, get consent, get you to come on the show so you can tell it yourself so that people can actually connect with you on a different level than they wouldn't. You know, they wouldn't have the same experience had a host just told your story in a more detached way, if you will. Yeah. And I think.

myself and several other survivors who are active on social media, a lot of us are more or less open books too, right? So you can come to us and you can be like, well, I didn't understand this part. I think that's another unique thing about social media that I am very thankful for is people can come directly to me and they can say, well, I didn't understand this or how did you feel when this happened? And I can then immediately answer it, right? And I can clear things up because one of the things that

I think a lot of people were very surprised by was I did like a little, a few videos about not saying to people, I'm sorry, whenever they share their story. And several people were confused that they didn't understand it because for many, many years, I did not share my story with people who did not already know because that was their response. I would share, okay, this is this thing that happened to me. And they would look at me with like,

It felt like pity, right? Sympathy feels a lot like pity from someone else sometimes. And they would say, I'm so sorry that that happened. And I said, don't say I'm sorry to survivors. And everyone was like, why? I don't understand. And even myself, I can fall into that trap because it's our automatic reaction. And so being able to explain that to people that, you know, when you say I'm sorry, it's

the automatic response from that person that you're telling I'm sorry is it's okay. And it's not right. Like it puts them in that awkward position, but it also it makes us feel like, well, I will speak for myself and not for other people. I think that this can be very common for many people, but for me, whenever someone says, I'm so sorry that happened, it makes me feel like you feel sorry for me. I don't want you to feel sorry for me. I don't feel sorry for me because this

This is a terrible thing that happened to me, but it has led me to where I am today. And I'm very, very blessed and very happy with my life. And I would never be where I am today had that thing not happened. But it also turns the focus back to you, the person that is saying, I'm sorry, right? Instead of saying,

Thank you for sharing that, right? Which is something that's very productive and empowering. You're saying, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what happened to you. So it's really just kind of a turn on words and wow, thank you for feeling safe enough with me to share that. Or that might've been really difficult for you to share, but thank you for trusting me with that information. I think that's just something that's just,

so much more empathetic and productive, right? Because it's like counterproductive to say, I'm sorry that happened. Yeah. No, and I get it. I mean, I get why people say that, right? But it's also, I think it's important for people to understand that it's, and again, our stories are very different, but when people ask about your life and then you kind of, in my, I always feel like I'm like dumping this huge story on them, you know what I mean? It's like,

okay, are you ready? You know what I mean? And then you dump it and you kind of wait and you're like, what are they, you know, is, are we still friends? What's, what's going to happen now? Um, but I think it's weird now. Yeah, exactly. Like it was so, and I, I always, like, I always find myself apologizing. I'm like, I'm sorry. You know, that was a lot. And it's like,

it does put you in this weird position, but I love that you said, you know, like a better way to put that is like, thank you for telling your story. Cause yeah, it's kind of mortifying when you, when you dump this on people and people, I'm so sorry. And you're like, no, no, no. Like it's, and then you kind of have to backtrack and talk about like how well adjusted you are. And like, I'm not like going home and crying every single night. I promise. Like I still like live an active, regular life, like everybody else. Like I'm, it's like, you almost have to prove that you're not

shattered into a million pieces. You know what I mean? Like it's, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, it was like the most dreaded question when people be like, Oh, you work in law enforcement. How did you get in law enforcement? And I was like, yeah,

Well, like how, how, how deep in this do I want to go? And I would just say, oh, you know, like the sheriff is a family friend. That was just like the easy way to do it. Right. I don't want to go into how I really ended up in law enforcement. Like that's messy and it's weird. And nobody wants to just be like, well, actually. So, yeah, it's.

And I think when we know better, we do better. Right. So that's why it's like, OK, well, let me try to give you some other options, other things that, you know, would be helpful to say, because we just I think sometimes we just we want to convey our feelings towards that person. Right. So that's why we say I'm so sorry. But just, you know, we'll just keep talking about it and teach people what are some some better things to say.

Yeah. Well, and on that same, you know, breath of thinking there, you know, I always hear you call yourself a survivor and not a victim. And I think that that's really powerful. And I just wanted to learn more about that from you. Yeah. So this is, I think, very early on, I never identified myself as a victim, even in my very early public speaking experience.

events, I would say I don't identify as a victim. And, and the reasoning behind that is because when you think of the term victim, so from a law enforcement perspective, if someone was a victim of a carjacking, if they were a victim of a burglary, a theft, whatever, that would be defining them as someone who had something taken from them, right?

So I don't identify as that because I don't feel like this person took anything from me. I refuse to give him the power for me to be identified as something that is lesser because I feel like that gives the offender power. Well, he took something from me and I refuse to give him that power. So I

The other option is that I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor of a serial killer, right? I'm a survivor of an assault, the survivor of a kidnapping because he did not take anything from me. I get to

choose what I take from that situation, right? So for me to take my power back, I get to pick up what I want from that and take it away. And for me, I choose to take away strength. I choose to take away a refining. I choose to not let him continue to have power over me by identifying as a survivor and not being defined by it. Because I think ultimately when you're a victim, you're

you're being defined by this thing that happens. So that's kind of the way I've worked it in my head for victim versus survivor and what that means to me. No, and I love that. And I think that some creators out there or, you know, when I say creator, I also mean like national media, you know what I mean? I think that they, they use the term victim and they may even hear you say that and say, whatever, it's just, you know, it's just words. It's just a small difference, but it's like,

You don't understand what that could mean to a survivor. If they hear constantly over and over again, the victim of this, the victim, victim, victim, victim, that gets into your brain. And sometimes you may not even know it. You know what I mean? And not everybody is as well adjusted or strong willed as you. You know, as much as I wish everyone who experienced something similar was there, there are a lot of people that are left behind.

you know, very hurt by this. And that's totally understandable. Everybody's journey is different. And I think that just the simple shift in mindset of calling people survivors instead of victims could, could help more people than maybe creators or the media. No. Um, so I love that you make that point and I think it's really important. Um,

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Now, part of taking your power back to and I know that I want to I want to I could talk to you forever. So I promise that I will be wrapping it up soon. But no, you're fine. So I watched your documentary, Escaping Captivity, the Kara Robinson story. And I want to talk about all of that. But what really got to me was you were an executive producer on that project. And that doesn't always happen. Sometimes.

A lot of times, you know, survivors won't get paid. They won't get a credit. Their stories are just kind of, you know, and I'm sure that they're excited to tell their stories and happy to do it, but they don't realize that they're giving up a lot of control by not having these positions. You know, they'll tell their story and all of a sudden it comes out in a weird way they didn't expect. And it's my understanding that because you had this executive producer credit, that didn't happen, that you were pretty happy with the way that it turned out. So I just wanted to get all of your feelings on that.

Yeah, so I had told my story previous to this and a couple of different formats and different shows, and I was never happy with it. It's why it's a big part of the reason why I stopped sharing my story, because I felt like it was sensationalized. I felt like things were, you know, different parts of my story were focused more heavier than was then things happen in actuality. And so when I began sharing,

going on this journey to wanting to help people, I realized I had to tell my story. And I wanted to do it in a way that felt genuine to what I experienced, as well as in a way that I was proud of, I need to have something I could point people back to and say, go watch this, this is what happened to me so that I could then go on and help people. And so

When I decided that was something that I wanted to do, I reached out to Elizabeth Smart and I said, you know, this is something I want to do. And I'm brand new to this world and what it means. And I said, do you have any recommendations? And so she pointed me towards a production company that I ended up working with who was just fantastic. They made me an executive producer. And that meant that I really was involved from the beginning to the end of that process. You know, I got all of the cuts done.

I was part of formulating what it would look like. I just very involved from beginning to end so that I could be proud of it. And if there was something that I said, I'm, I don't like the way that's looking or the way that this is told, I would have control over that. And so that was something that was very empowering and I feel very lucky to have had that experience. But I also will tell people that if you want to tell your story, that,

If it is, this is something that was helpful to me because I think often we feel like, okay, well, we have to, we have to seize this opportunity because someone wants me to tell my story, but hold out because if someone wants your story and they don't want you to be part of it, you don't have to tell your story. You can wait for someone who will let you be a part of it and who will let you be involved. So for me, that was very impactful. And, you know, I,

I was there from the very beginning where we filmed a reel that was then pitched to networks and very, very involved throughout the process. And now that's something I hold out for. You know, if people want me to go into other things, I'm like executive producer or nothing. Like I will not be...

participating in anything that involves my story unless I have control over it because I want ownership of my story and I want it to be something that I am proud of that I can point back to and be like yeah this is factually accurate and I approve I approve this message right I want I want I want to point back to things that I feel are genuine to to me and my story and my truth and my soul and so yeah that was something that was just it

It was a great experience. And I trust that production company just with everything that I could ever possibly do. No, and it's so smart. You know, I've been involved in projects where I was interviewed and I had no control over the project. And I think...

When you go into true crime, you're like, well, everybody's in it because they want to help. That's why they're in this business. And that's just not the truth. And I've had so many disappointing experiences where they told me it was going to go one way and it went another way and I have no control. And that's a really crappy place to be in. So I just really thought that was important to talk about your executive producer credit because I think

a lot of families and survivors and people telling their own stories don't really know that that's an option. I can't tell you how many times I've been told, well, that's not ethical. And it's like, what do you mean it's not ethical? You want to use the entire basis of my work as your framework, but it's not ethical to have me involved. It's a really weird thing. And I think

I think fighting for the rights of survivors, of victims, of family members is something that's kind of new and it's something that we do work on in a capacity together on a whole other project. But I just want to kind of highlight that fact that I don't think people realize that when you go to a big crime convention, you see a big name TV personality, they're getting paid to be there. When they have a victim, a survivor, a family member speak at those events, those people are told,

we can't pay you. It's not ethical. And it's not, I don't think anybody's out here trying to be greedy. I don't think that's the thing. I think it's, why is that person who has no ties to this story getting paid? And you're telling me it's not ethical to pay me. Like, I think a lot of people don't realize that that's what's happening in the media behind the curtain of all of this. Yeah. Because let's be honest, Sarah, how does our society place the

value on something. They assign it a monetary value, right? So I think for most of us, it is not about the money. We do not care. We are doing this to help people at the end of the day. However, it is

consuming our time and our time needs to be considered valuable as well as our sharing. And we assign value to things by assigning a monetary value. So by not paying survivors or victims for their content, or I mean, I'm sure you get this all the time. Can we use your social media content for a story we're doing about you? And I'm like, no. Yeah.

no, you can't. So without linking back to me, you just want to take my video and put it in your story. And I mean, yeah. Yeah. So I think that, um, you know, it, it has to be changed and, and it's very tricky because I think a lot of people hear that and they see us talking about these things and they're like, oh, well, she just wants to get paid. It's like, I mean, yes, we want to be treated fairly. Right. And it is our job, right? Like

I don't think people realize how much time and effort it takes to produce this content. Like, even if I record a 30 second video, guess what? It's going to take me 30 minutes to record a 30 second video, right? Because I have to think of it. I have to like add the captions. I have to do all these things. So I think that it's just so important to highlight, like you said, that

The, you know, the media very often like, oh, we're a we're a media, you know, we're a news organization. So we can't pay you for your story because it's unethical. It's like just because you're paying me doesn't mean I'm making it up. Look, it's not unethical. So I think that it's a very fine line to walk. I think it's very difficult to navigate. And it's it's been done so long a certain way.

they're like, well, we've been doing this forever and no one's ever questioned it. It's like, yeah, well, you've, you've been hurting people in there and you and I personally know many, many people who've been hurt by these practices. And yeah, I think people don't know it. And it's all about this conscious consumer consumerism where it's, you know, we can be thoughtful about what we're consuming and how it could be harmful to people. And you know, it's,

We're not looking for, you know, hundreds and hundreds and thousands of dollars for sharing our story, obviously, but some type of just acknowledgement that our time is valuable would be nice.

Well, yeah. And I mean, they bring up the ethics of it, right? Tell me what's ethical about a huge booming industry like true crime. And I mean, I would venture to say at least 90% of all the profits go towards creators that are just telling these stories secondhand. Right.

And, I mean, I think that's being generous to say that 10% is going back to the people who are most affected by these stories. I really don't think the number is that high. So if you want to talk about ethics, let's talk about that. And I don't know what the answer is in that kind of situation either, right? Right.

And you and I are willing to learn, right? Like if you have something that you feel like is the answer to that, please, by all means, like tell us what it is. But at the end of the day, I mean, it is exploitation. Like let's get really down to the definition of exploitation. It is me making money off of you, right? Like that's exploitation. And when you have these creators who are telling our stories and they are making money off of it, it's like,

Do you not see how that's problematic? I don't. I don't know how people don't see that, but I think talking about it, hopefully that can help people just kind of have some sort of basis of knowledge of what it feels like to us. We're being taken advantage of because I mean, that's what it feels like to most of us.

No, absolutely. And it is a case by case basis. When I was fighting for my sister, I was like, please feature her story, make all the money you can off of it. I wanted it. I wanted it to be a moneymaker for them because I wanted it to be an appealing story for them to cover so that I can get justice for my sister. But now that an arrest has been made, now that I don't think that there's a huge call to action where people can actually help when I when I see it being covered now, it definitely feels different. It's like, well, why are you telling this story, especially depending on how they tell it? But yeah, absolutely.

again, if you want to talk about ethics and true crime, don't tell me it's ethical to pay creators all the money and it's not ethical to pay any of the victims or any of the survivors or any of the families. That line of thinking will never make sense to me. And it's not because I want all the money in the world. It's because I care about ethics and true crime. And I care about these families who are often left devastated and penniless after trying to search for their loved one or get justice, whatever it is. And they have to watch these people make

potentially millions of dollars off of, you know, something like a Netflix documentary about their family. It's just it's not fair. Yeah.

No, it's not fair. But I know that we were, I know that it's a long conversation. So I want to get to what you're doing now, all the amazing things that you're doing. I am kind of addicted to your fitness videos. I mean, as much as I love your true crime content, I'm like, wow, what a great way to heal and to kind of work through that. I think that it's really cool. So again, what are you up to now? Yeah, so I am, I have a lot of kind of,

Behind the scenes things kind of plates I'm spinning that I can't really talk about but day to day I am really just producing content, being authentic online and primarily I'm most active on Instagram, but

just showing people what healing looks like. And here I am 20 years later, and I am very much in the trenches of healing right now. Um, and I think just providing people with a framework for how different healing can look. So I, I do post a lot about my fitness. That's been one of the biggest things, especially in the last five years that helps keep me sane. I think, um, my thoughts can be very chaotic. It feels a little bit in my head, like, um, uh,

what I described to my husband is like a cardboard box that somebody dumped a hundred bouncy balls into. And my, my thoughts are just kind of like, but then when I, when I'm in nature or I exercise, it kind of helps put things where they belong. It kind of calms and quiets things down. So I do post a lot of content about, you know, the things that have helped me along the way to heal because therapy, let's say

face it, it may not be part of your journey, but it's also not very accessible for a lot of people to get the type of therapy that they need. So I am an example of that type of therapy that I need is really just not accessible to me at this point.

And so I think that the more we are able to take the power back into our own hands and heal ourselves, if we're able, I think that that can just be so healing to heal ourselves. It can be so empowering to know that we have control over so many aspects and there's so many simple things that I think we don't think about. So producing a lot of content around that, I go and do speaking engagements online.

all over the place and speak to all types of people. I do speak a lot to law enforcement, which is obviously something I'm very passionate about because I think that that gives me the ability to impact survivors from the ground level when I can educate law enforcement to how to empower survivors.

to become survivors. So I do that. I'm probably going to be writing a book. So yeah, so lots of, lots of things like that, but definitely active online. And if I don't post anything for like 48 hours, somebody come find me. Cause I'm something's probably happened. I'll be on it. I'll be on it. Knock on my door and be like, Hey, are you okay? Yeah.

Exactly. Like, who is this lady? But okay. So where can people find you in all these amazing things? If they want to book you for a speaking engagement, if they want to reach out to you, where can people find you? So I have a website, Kara Robinson Chamberlain.com. I have all my links to my social media there, but my social media handles on Facebook, TikTok and Instagram are Kara Robinson Chamberlain. I have a Twitter. I don't really post much on it. Honestly, I've had it since 2008, but

Those are the best ways to find me, Kara Robinson Chamberlain on TikTok, Instagram, and then my website, kararobinsonchamberlain.com. Perfect. And last but not least, what is your call to action for this episode? What can my listeners do to, I mean, anything, it's your call to action. Yeah, I think that my call to action really is just for people to be more thoughtful and aware and compassionate of

what they are creating and consuming. I think that your listeners will be the type of people that are consuming true crime, right? And so I think just if they're listening to you, they've probably already thought about this, but just consciously thinking about your words, your consumption, think about if I say this, is it going to, or if I do this, or if I listen to this, is it empowering? Because I think most people

go through hard things and we want to be empowered. We want to create survivors and you can never underestimate how a small action or a small word could really impact someone in that journey. And so just thoughtfully, consciously, ethically consuming and creating and speaking to people. That's my big call to action.

I love it. I do have to say I have a great audience, but I'm sure some people hate listen or my audience can tell a friend. So I love that. I really do. I think it's really important. And again, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for telling your story. I am so happy to have had you. And I hope that it helps. I hope that this conversation helps shift the narrative. I think it's an everlasting, ever-going kind of conversation. But

Hopefully it helps. So just thank you so much for being on the show. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. I so enjoyed our conversation and I could talk to you for hours. And we'll have to do like a separate tangent podcast or something. Yeah, for sure. Just called tangents. Perfect. Well, thank you. Of course. Thank you so much for listening to my discussion with Kara.

I hope that by continuing to discuss how true crime impacts those who have experienced it firsthand, we can all continue to try to make it a better space for these survivors, families, and victims. I also hope that by being open about my own mistakes, I can encourage other creators to do the same. True crime is a tricky, sensitive subject, but an important one.

As long as creators and consumers come into this space with good intentions and a commitment to learn and grow with each case, I really think we can do some good. But as always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.

Voices for Justice is hosted and produced by me, Sarah Turney. For more information about the podcast, to suggest a case, to see resources used for this episode, and to find out more about how to help the cases I discuss, visit voicesforjusticepodcast.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review the show in your podcast player.

It really does help more people find the podcast and these cases in need of justice. Welcome to the Voices for Justice secret aftershow. I learned so much from Kara. I mean, I can talk about ethics and true crime until I am blue in the face, but I don't know what it's like to be on Kara's side of it all. So I think listening to her and how the true crime industry has affected her is very important.

Like I said, I learned a lot and I hope you did as well. Kara is doing very important work in this industry for other survivors like her, and I can't wait to continue working with her. Now, I do have an update in the Naomi Arion case. Unfortunately, just a few hours after I published my episode about Naomi last week, it was announced that her remains were found.

It was also announced that Troy Driver is being charged with the murder of Naomi. It's obviously not the outcome any of us were hoping for, and all I can say is my heart goes out to Naomi's family. Also, I'd really like to encourage you to follow Naomi's sister on Twitter. Her username there is sweater underscore vest, and that way you can see any ongoing case needs.

Now, switching gears, I did want to let you guys know that I am going to CrimeCon in Las Vegas at the end of the month. CrimeCon was gracious enough to let me join last minute after some of the dates of Alyssa's trial have settled. Now, because I am joining so last minute, like three weeks before the event, I have no idea if I will have any live shows or panels like I did last year. But you can absolutely find me at my booth on Podcast Row.

I do try to stay at my booth pretty much all day to make sure I'm available to meet you guys. Because honestly, that's the biggest reason I go. I almost never go to any of the panels or programming unless my friends are in it. I sit at my booth pretty much all day and just wait for you, so please stop by and say hello. And there may or may not even be a special mystery guest at my booth.

Also, I posted this on social media, but I wanted to put it here too. I know what it's like to literally drain my savings to go to CrimeCon to advocate for my missing loved one. So if you have a missing or murdered loved one that you would love to advocate for at CrimeCon but just can't make it to Vegas to do so, please send me a flyer. I will pay for the printing and display it at my booth.

you can send those to sarah at voicesforjusticepodcast.com, and that is Sarah with an H.

Now, if you don't have a ticket to CrimeCon and plan on going, I want to encourage you to use code TRUECONSEQUENCES for 10% off a standard badge. Now, this isn't my code, but actually friend of the show, Eric Carter Londeen's code. He came on the podcast some time ago to share his brother Jacob's case. And I would love if we could pay it forward a bit and use his code instead of mine.

Like I said, advocating for your loved one isn't cheap and it isn't easy. So again, please use code TRUECONSEQUENCES for 10% off a standard badge. Now, the last thing I wanted to address was the fact that I'm getting quite a few messages from you guys talking about my outro to this after show. You guys are saying that you love me and you're not tolerating me because I end it every time with, you know, as always, thank you for tolerating me. I love you. I'll talk to you next time.

And I just want you guys to know that that's really more of just a private joke between us. I know that you guys love me. I don't think that you're just tolerating me. It's just kind of a joke because I always ramble in this after show. And I also talk really fast, which I did in this episode too, because that's just my natural way of being with people.

But yeah, I just want to let you guys know that I don't think you guys are really tolerating me. It's just more of a joke because this after show moment is optional. You know, this is a place where I kind of break things down. I give you updates. It's my version of banter at the beginning of the show, just afterwards and a little more optional. So yeah, as always, thank you for tolerating me. I love you and I'll talk to you next time.