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This is Jessica Knoll, host of the new series Back in Crime. If you're a follower of true crime, you're probably familiar with some of the most shocking stories from our history. Horrific tragedies like the Columbine Massacre. He turned the gun straight at us and shot. Oh my God, the window went out. And the kid standing there with me, I think he got hit. Okay. Oh God. And notorious criminals like cult leader Charles Manson.
In a scene described by one investigator as reminiscent of a weird religious rite, five persons, including actress Sharon Tate, were found dead at the home of Miss Tate and her husband, screen director Roman Poliansky. But what if we were to turn back the hands of time and relive these events as they unfolded? Follow along each week as we take a fresh look at crimes from the past. Back in Crime is available now.
Voices for Justice is a podcast that uses adult language and discusses sensitive and potentially triggering topics, including violence, abuse, and murder. This podcast may not be appropriate for younger audiences. All parties are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Some names have been changed or omitted per their request or for safety purposes. Listener discretion is advised. My name is Sarah Turney and this is Voices for Justice.
Today, you're going to hear part two of my coverage on Abby Williams and Libby German. If you haven't listened to part one, please go back and listen to that before listening to this episode, or else it's not going to make a lot of sense. This episode is an interview with Libby German's sister, Kelsey.
I've seen Kelsey grow up in this industry, and how it's ultimately shaped and dictated so many aspects of her life. She has always been a fierce advocate for the case, and continues to do everything she can to keep it in the media. And I think she's done it with kindness and grace.
I had the pleasure of meeting Kelsey back in 2019, in basically the most typical true crime way possible. We were both at an event called CrimeCon advocating for our sisters. We didn't know each other and met live on the internet, but that moment truly changed my life for the better. We get into all of that in this episode. So without any further introduction, here is my interview with Kelsey. Kelsey, how are you?
I'm doing okay. I definitely have other days where I'm not okay, but today is a good day. There's definitely times where I just, I know I need to take a break. And I think I did that for quite a few months and I was doing pretty good at that. And now I'm to a point where I'm ready to get back to fighting and continue to work towards justice.
I love that. Well, and I want to take a little step back in time and tell the listener about how we met because I think it's kind of like – I think it's a funny, perfect example of how kind of true crime families meet all the time or I guess families affected by true crime, however you want to say it. But we met at CrimeCon New Orleans, so 2019, and I'll never forget –
I was walking by John Lorden's table and, you know, I love John Lorden. And he grabbed me and said, Sarah, you have to meet Kelsey German. Sit down. And I was like, what is happening? And all of a sudden I was meeting you live on a live stream, live on the Internet. And
I think it like changed the entire path of my life. I didn't know it at that moment. I thought that you were, I mean, you were so young at that time and I thought that you were so adorable to be totally honest. And it was really great meeting you there, but also like,
in the strangest way to just be like, here, here's this live stream, meet live on the internet right now. And like, neither of us really knew each other's stories. But that's how we met. We met at CrimeCon and we've stayed in touch ever since. I mean, you said that you were taking a break from fighting for justice, but you know, you've been fighting for so long that I wanted to highlight really how long it's been. I mean, my goodness, since the very beginning, I can't imagine being that young at CrimeCon. That
That must have just been insane for you. Yeah, right? I started this all when I was 17, and I'm now almost 23, which is insane to me that we've just been... We just keep fighting. I feel like I've grown up with all of these people. Like, when we met at CrimeCon, I remember sitting there talking on the livestream, and John Lorden's like, Kelsey, here's Sarah Turney. You need to talk to her. And I just thought you were just some, like...
I don't know, some true crime person. And I'm like sitting there like acting like I'm interviewing you, like totally not even doing anything important. We're just talking about CrimeCon. And I was like, so what are you here for? And then I remember my jaw just dropping when you started telling me about Alyssa. And I was like, oh no, like I could have done this so much better. I felt so embarrassed, but it worked out great because now like I couldn't imagine not knowing you. I'm just so glad I know you.
And it's the same with everyone else. Like I've just met so many great people, also not great people, but I couldn't imagine my life without these amazing family members in my life. But I also wish I never knew a single one of you.
In the last six years, that's just one thing that my heart has held so close. I love every single one of the people I've met, every single family member that's fighting for justice or friend or advocate. They mean so much to me that I wish that I could go back in time for all of us and not know a single one of you. Just erase all of it and none of us know each other. That's my dream. I wish I could just do that for all of us.
Exactly. I love you. I wish I never met you. I wish we were never here. It might sound weird to people, but it makes total sense to me. You know, it's weird to be grateful, but also kind of resentful, you know, that we're here. It's this insane feeling, at least for me. And it seems like you feel the same way. Yeah, I definitely do.
Yeah. You know, and there's no denying how big, you know, Abby and Libby's case has become. I, you know, I'd venture to say it's one of the most popular cases in true crime maybe ever. I mean, as of this recording, the Abby and Libby subreddit has over 20,000 members. How does that make you feel? That's insane to me. When all of this happened...
We had no idea that this would get as big as it has. I think, well, at first we thought that they'd just fallen off the bridge. So that was kind of our first instinct. But as soon as we started...
realizing what was happening and we started doing these interviews and within six months we were getting calls from Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz and all of these huge people we I think that's when we really realized like for some reason this case is creating this community of people that are literally obsessed with it I actually I talk at this high school who
They've reached out to me every year for the last few years. I think I've talked to them three times now. And they were doing research on the case and found that the Delphi case is more researched than the John Bonnet Ramsey case, which to me, I have always said is one of the bigger ones. And that is one of the most known cases.
And when they said that, every time someone says something like that, that's insane. There's no way there's still people that don't know about it. Even as big as Abby and Libby's case has gotten, I can still drive an hour away and meet somebody that has no idea who I am, but no idea who my sister is.
And they're like, what? That didn't happen. Like that case was solved. Or like, I've never heard of that case. What happened? And so I'm always meeting somebody I can share the story with, no matter how big the case has gotten. Oh, absolutely. I felt the same way about my sister's case. You know, when people would tell me, well, your case is too big. I can't cover it. I'm over here thinking, no, there's plenty of people who've never heard it. It's
It's hard because you want everyone on earth to know about it so that it can hopefully get solved. And I do want to take a step back to you being 17 when you first started doing these interviews. I mean, I think most people would see 17 as a child. I mean, to me, just a baby, really. And I want to ask, how
How do you look back on that now? How do you feel about interviews you did when you were 17? Those interviews are so bad. Not just because I didn't know what I was doing, but because at 17, if you asked me in March of 17, the things that I remembered at that time and the way I remembered things were just not...
All completely accurate because my brain had like pushed all of this to the back and said it wasn't that like it was this or no, I don't remember that. And there's still times where things are like completely blacked out and I don't remember what happened. I still have I'm still learning things that happened on February 13th, 2017.
today in October 2022, like I'm still learning like so much. I also have learned a lot about the media. I've learned a lot about how content creators or journalists work. I've learned a lot about how to say things and what should be said and what shouldn't be said. I've just learned
So much. But at 17, I was just thrown into this. It was, there was no handbook. Nobody told me how to do this. Nobody told me that there were things I can't say. Like I didn't know that that's a thing. I also didn't know in 2017 that our case would be still unsolved in 2022. I also didn't know that people would be so obsessed with the case. So they questioned every single word that I say, like,
I didn't know that that was a thing. I wasn't even thinking about that. So after dealing with it all for six years, I've definitely learned a lot about interviews and about people and a lot about the true crime community that I had no idea even existed. Yeah. So, I mean, let's just address it. You've been accused of changing your story about the day you dropped off the girls. Can you set the record straight here? Yeah.
Yeah. I haven't changed my story. If you look at all of them, though there might be times that things have changed, from 17 to 22, I just learned things. I learned things happened. I've
been corrected by my family who they're like Kelsey I know that you're saying that happened and that might be how you remember it but this is what actually happened and so my story really didn't change and even law enforcement sees it that way they um I've talked to them several times about that and I'm just because I want them to know that that's not what I was doing um
I wanted to make sure that I wasn't changing my story. So I go to them and I'm like, hey, this is what I said. This is what happened. Are those the same things? Like they don't see what everyone else is seeing. They don't even question it because they know that a 17-year-old is not going to remember every single thing. And they're also pretty in tune to what trauma does to the brain, especially for something as traumatic as this. So yeah.
No, I haven't ever changed my story. I've just learned things and added to it as I go because that's how it works. Unfortunately, you don't always remember everything from the time something happened to when you're being questioned. And unfortunately, I did interviews before I knew absolutely everything that happened. I wish I would have waited until I
had all of that knowledge. If I could go back and redo them, I would, but I can't. So now all I can do is share the information that I have now and share what is accurate. And that's what I'll continue to do.
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Just go to the App Store or Google Play Store and download the free Ibotta app to start earning cash back and use code CRIME. That's I-B-O-T-T-A in the Google Play Store or App Store. And use code CRIME. I think there's a few things that we can address here. Like, first, no person, let alone 17-year-old, I think could—I mean, unless you have a very insanely sharp memory—
But, you know, like you said, trauma happens and trauma affects the brain. So, you know, I'd be willing to bet that most people, especially 17-year-olds, can't recall every single step of their day. If you ask them at the end of the day, okay, what time did you wake up? What did you eat for breakfast? You know, what route did you take to school or whatever? I mean, I know I wouldn't be able to answer those questions. So let's just be real. You know, humans are not perfect. And that's just how memory works.
So first, I wanted to say that. Second, I think what people don't understand, at least in my case, is, you know, when you go through something like this, when you have your own memories and you have things like police documents or statements from police or new information comes out,
I know for me in my sister's case, you know, my memory almost becomes blurred to case facts sometimes. It's hard for me to distinguish that's a memory all on my own or that's something I read in the case file. You know, over time as the years go by, for me, it's really blended. It's hard for me to distinguish where I'm getting this information from in my brain. Do you feel the same way or is it different for you? Yeah.
I would say it's kind of the same, although I don't have as many case files as you have. I haven't been able to read those, but I think it's also like just talking to detectives. Like they'll tell me things and I'm like, yeah, that's what happened. Or I'll talk to my family and they're like, yeah, this is what happened. So at this point, I'm like, is that something that I remember or is this something that somebody else is telling me happened before?
Um, for example, I have talked many times about what I saw that day right at when I was dropping them off, but other people that are there that day might have a completely different story. And so after having talked to some people that were there that day, they remember things differently than I do. And so just knowing that a lot of it is
Just me piecing things together. And so a lot of what I know now is not what I knew in 2017, just because I'm getting it from so many different people now.
Yeah, that makes total sense, you know, and I have to say, even being friends with you, it's so difficult for me to keep up with every new piece of information that comes out about the case. And I don't like comparing cases, but I said something a long time ago that I think this case is becoming more and more difficult.
Like Maura Murray, it's just becoming so sensationalized. And of course, Julie is a good friend of both of ours. But, you know, that sensationalism is why I wanted to keep the episode about the girls super straight to the point and not go down a million different rabbit holes. Because there, I mean, there are series about this case. There could be so many episodes. I mean, you could tell these, you know, this story forever. Yeah.
But it just seems like this information is coming from everywhere. Like, I know I've been contacted by multiple people claiming they have exclusive information. One even says that they had written statements from members of the Indiana State Police.
And I want to touch on something that just happened. You were just out here in Arizona for an event that we did together at Arizona State University. On the last day of your trip, when you were flying back home, the Internet went crazy saying that there was an arrest going to be made. People were saying they saw law enforcement in the area. I mean, the rumors were insane. And I know that your plane landed and your phone was just like...
blowing up. You text me right after. Now, I know that this is just one of many false rumors in this case, but I just thought it was such a new, relevant example. And I wanted to ask you, how does that make you feel to get off a plane with, I don't even know how many text messages saying, you know, was he arrested? He was arrested to see the internet blow up. What is that like for you? I was extremely frustrated. Um,
First, like I didn't have a single text from law enforcement, so I knew it wasn't true. Like I would have gotten calls from family. I would have gotten calls from at least one detective saying like this is happening or I would assume so. And I didn't have that. So I was getting messages from reporters, from podcasters, from advocates, from friends, just from random people on the Internet saying that they'd heard something was happening and
And I had to go into damage control. That's what Caleb calls it. He's like, well, I'm not going to talk to you for the next two hours because now you have to start messaging people. And that's because I just get so defeated knowing that every time something like this happens...
I am going to get messages for months saying, congratulations, the case is solved, but it's not solved. And we're still fighting and there's still not been an arrest. And we're still looking for this random guy on the bridge. We're still looking for this tip.
But now people are going to stop looking because they think an arrest has been made because they think we have answers and they don't need to help anymore. And so I do have to go into a form of damage control where I have to start messaging people and responding back or making tweets or Instagram posts or whatever it may be to tell people that this isn't what we are doing. Like there wasn't an arrest. Like that's,
just not the case. It's just a rumor that started going crazy. And that's when I have to start going back through and being like, no, this is the information we actually need to share.
Yeah. And I want to touch on something that both of us have kind of shared in our journeys along here. And I don't think I knew this about you, but you were going to college to be a journalist. You were a journalism major, and so was I. And both of us changed our majors after experiencing true crime journalism. Now, I think that, you know, most people can infer what that means. And the reason I'm kind of phrasing it like that is because I feel like
You're in this position that I was also in, not just changing majors, but in terms of not feeling extremely free to speak for yourself. Like, I know when I was fighting for media for my sister, I felt like I couldn't speak freely about my experience with the true crime entertainment industry, you know, podcasts, YouTube, whatever it might be. I really wanted to be seen as super easy to work with so more people would cover her case. This is a very different situation.
Do you feel like you can truly speak about your experience in true crime yet? Or do you still find yourself kind of editing your responses so you don't upset anyone? I would say I definitely edit my responses. And I know that Sarah definitely knows that. I am way too nice. There have definitely been times where I probably should have said more, but
but I hate confrontation and I don't want somebody to be like, I'm not covering your sister because you aren't easy to work with. You call me out on my crap, which is what we should do. But I, I just don't, it just feels like you need everybody to share the story. And if you're not easy to work with, they won't,
I definitely am getting to a place where I am going to be able to be more confrontational. I'm getting to a place where people are starting to make me a lot more angry than not, I guess. So I just think it's time that we all start doing that, even though it feels hard and we feel like we're not going to be able to share our stories. It's more important that they're being shared the right way.
Yeah. And I mean, you know, I do think that you have that flexibility, you know, like we talked about earlier. The case is huge. I don't think that people are going to stop covering it. And when you say confrontational, like you were the sweetest, one of the sweetest, probably the sweetest, let's be real, like the sweetest person I've ever met. And I know that for you, that mostly would just mean like, hey.
hey, this is hurting me and this is also hurting the case. Can you stop? Like, that's how I imagine you to be confrontational. But am I misunderstanding that or mispredicting that, I guess? No, that's pretty accurate, actually. And I think that's fair. Like, I think we should be able to say, hey, I don't like this. I think it's hurting the case. And I
I mean, I don't know. You know me. I encourage you to speak out every chance you get. But I also understand, you know, the game you have to play. I know that families in this space constantly, willingly re-traumatize themselves for the cause. You know, you go on this interview with me and you tell these stories again and again in hopes of reaching the right person that can solve this case. And I know that it's not easy and...
I just, you know, I love you so much and I want you to have such a great path. And I think that you have every right to finally start speaking up, especially because, you know, and I don't want to perpetrate any super nasty rumors, but I do want to highlight just how bizarre some of these theories have gotten. I mean, some of the things I've heard are
I mean, it is bordering on that super, you know, conspiratorial or conspiracy theory based, if you will. Some more of those cases that are just absolutely insane. I mean, some of these rumors, you know, I have to ask if you're comfortable sharing, what is the craziest rumor you've heard that you'd just like to squash right here and now? One of the craziest. Oh, there's a lot.
Um, but I think the one that has always stuck out to me is one of the craziest. Like it's been around since the beginning and I don't, it's probably squashed now. Cause I think it's been around long enough that people are like, that is really crazy. Um, but it's that me and my sister were, um,
in love with my uncle and that I had something to do with Libby's death because I wanted him for myself or she was pregnant and I was upset about it, which none of those are true. I do love my uncle. He's a great uncle, but he's my uncle and I don't see him any other way other than that. And neither did Libby. We just...
Loved having him around because he was our uncle. And so I just, I think some of those are some of the craziest. Also that my dad was an informant for the police, which also wasn't, isn't true. It's never been true. Yeah, I think I could go on and on about all of the theories that I think are crazy. There's just so many. And, you know, I don't know how people keep coming up with them. I know we talked to
um someone last week in phoenix who said that um he has went through every single theory in his son's case and i thought that too like i've i think that i've gone through absolutely everything and as soon as i say that there's a new theory on a group like that's insane to me that people can come up with so many options of like this is what happened like
They come up with the craziest things that I think there's no way that could have been it. And most of the time, there's no way that could have been it. But maybe someday somebody will come up with the right one.
Let's hope so. I mean, like I said, some of these just get so nasty, you know, and particularly toward the family, obviously. And I know in part one, we talked about how losing Libby has affected your life. But I want to ask, you know, how has all the drama surrounding the case affected you and your family? I would say it's had a very big impact on us all differently.
For me, I just speak out about it and tell people about it and tell people that this is what's happening. It definitely has made me a less trusting person because some of the people that have started being involved in this drama are also people that have claimed to be close with us at times. And then for my family, I think...
I think some people in my family hold it a lot closer than I do. I tend to ignore it at this point. I try to stay away from the groups on Facebook and Reddit and whatnot. But I have other family members that will watch every single YouTube video put out there and read every single comment and go into every single group and read all of the theories. Whether it's bashing us or not, they read everything. And so I think...
For them, it's been a lot more of a negative impact than it has been for me just because I know how I am viewed to other people and I value myself in a way that I know there's no way those things are true and that what they are saying tells more about them than it does me. And that can be really hard for people to accept.
when you're reading these comments, especially when it's about us. It took me a really long time to get to that point to say that these comments are not about me. They're about this person. Like,
Imagine waking up at 730 in the morning and the first thing you do is put that Kelsey German is the worst person I've ever met. She wore that sweatshirt and it absolutely did not fit her like it fit Abby and Kelsey is much bigger than Abby at 730 in the morning. Like imagine waking up and that being the first thing you do.
That's insane to me. They're just such negative people. And I always tell them, when I see comments like that, I comment back and tell them that I hope they have a better day. But the rest of my family isn't as good at doing that. But I think it's just because I have put myself in this community where this is happening. And I've just seen it so much. And I see it happening to other people too that I just...
have learned to ignore it and keep going and remember that there are so many more good people out there than bad. And that is also hard to accept. That took me a long time as well.
Absolutely. Well, and I do want to talk about that because I know that you're really grateful for all the attention the girls' case has gotten. I know that you don't want to set out to say everybody who follows the case is terrible because I know you don't feel that way. But before we get to that, I do have to ask, how do you think all this conjecture, all of the theories, all of this information has affected the case? I think a lot of it is the reason that we're still
Going and going and going while we still don't have justice. I mean, that's not everything. I do know that. But when you're sending in these tips and it's the same tip that has been sent in 20 times and then you're sending another one, that's crazy. And they have to go back and they have to keep looking at that. They have to go back and look at these tips and they have to keep sorting through them. That takes time away from the people that are looking at the case.
So our detectives have probably had to go back to the same tip that has been sent in four times a year for the last six years. And it's taking time away from them going over this other tip that might be more accurate because they do have to go over every single thing that's sent in. But on top of that, people are sharing pictures of random people and saying that there's been an arrest and saying that,
There is a new suspect. And every time that happens, people stop looking. People stop sharing the information because they think we've had an arrest. They think we have answers. So they don't have to look anymore. And every time that happens, we're losing people. I can see every time it happens because I lose about 100 followers. Not that that's important, but it just tells me that those 100 people, um,
thought that we had answers so they didn't have to be here anymore. And that is incredibly defeating after doing all of this work and you continue fighting and you start seeing people leave because they think they don't need to keep looking at this case anymore because there's answers. So I definitely think it's taken away from the case in quite a few ways. But I do think that there are a lot of really awesome people out there who have helped share all the information and who don't share all of that information.
Um, they like sort through all those theories and they only share what they believe to be accurate, which has, has been helpful as well.
Yeah, and I do want to get into that because it is this double-edged sword, right? If you want people to care and you want people to be engaged and you want them to share the story, you just kind of don't want them to say horrible things like saying you don't fit into your sister's sweater or whatever, like, because obviously that's just mean and isn't relevant. So I do want to ask you, what do you want to say to the thousands of people that follow the girl's case and are constantly looking for updates?
I am so grateful that there are still people out there that genuinely care and are still watching for something to happen and for sticking by us for six years and continuing to stick by us. We couldn't do this without you. We couldn't get all this information out on our own. I couldn't do it all on my own. And so I'm so grateful that you're here.
I'm just very grateful that you're all still here and still care as much as you do, if not more every year. I still meet people that will learn about the case today and they will stick by us until the end and after as well. And so just keep sticking with us and we will have justice. And I promise as soon as I know something, I will share it with all of you.
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So, there's kind of two times that I find myself playing June's Journey. One is kind of throughout the day when I just need like a little decompression break, I play a few scenes and get back to work. Or more often than not, when I'm laying down for the night, I tend to play then too. For me, it's a nice way to unwind, decompress, and get lost in a mystery. Discover your inner detective when you download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.
Now, I know we discussed this in part one, but I'd like to reiterate, what is the best way people can help Abby and Libby get justice? Keep sharing all of the accurate information so that anything that we share or law enforcement shares, if I share it, it's probably okay to share. I try to share everything that I think is helpful on all of my social media. So
That would be probably the best place to go there. Or my grandma's pretty good at sharing that stuff too. But also if you ever had any communication with Anthony Schatz, that's what we're continuing to look for. That's what law enforcement asked for most recently. So anybody that ever communicated with the account,
Any point in time on any social media platform, we're still looking and it's incredibly important that you go to law enforcement with that information and with any information. So if you think you have a tip that could be important.
go ahead and send that to the tip line and law enforcement will go over it. Whether you get a response back from them or not, you may never hear from them. And that's just because they still get hundreds of tips and they just can't get back to every person. So you will get an automated message. Normally that will say they received it. But every time somebody messages me thinking that law enforcement didn't receive their tip,
And I send it into law enforcement. I usually get a message back saying that they have received that information. They'd had it. It looks familiar to them. So whether you get a response back or not, just trust that it's getting to the right place and to the right people and they will look into it. Perfect. And of course, I will have all the social handles, all the links below, the numbers everywhere that people can go to follow you and submit tips. And Kelsey, what are your plans for the future?
So I am currently working on my master's degree. So I'm going to do trauma therapy so that I can help victims in that way. But I also plan on taking maybe a little more control over my sister's story and fighting that misinformation in my own words. So you can definitely be looking forward to that in the future.
I love that. I am so excited for you. I just, it's been amazing to see you go through this journey. I mean, it's awful, right? But also going from 17, you know, and you're in your 20s now and you graduated college and you're married and everything.
It's just it's you know, I'm just here to support you every step of the way. And it's been amazing to watch you grow and go through the true crime entertainment industry and be this voice. I mean, you're doing speaking engagements now. You're going to tell their story in your own words. I am so excited to see what you do. And, you know, most of all, of course, how you continue to advocate for justice. I think you're going to do amazing things. You're going to I.
I could gush about you forever. You know, I can't wait to see you help other people. I can't wait to see you help the case. I can't wait to see you, you know, hopefully get justice and eventually some peace. So again, I just want to thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really hope that, you know, by hearing it in your own words, people might be a little more sympathetic. You know, they might be a little more open to not believing everything they read on the internet. So thank you so much, Kelsey.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for listening to these episodes. I love you and I'll talk to you next time.
Voices for Justice is hosted and produced by me, Sarah Turney, and is a Voices for Justice media original. This episode contains writing and research assistance by Haley Gray, fact-checking by Lena Gukuluk, and audio engineering by Alex Button. If you love what we do here, please don't forget to follow, rate, and review the show in your podcast player. It's an easy and free way to help us and help more people find these cases in need of justice.
And for even more content, check out my other podcast, Disappearances, only on Spotify.