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From Wondery, I'm Cassie DePeckel, and this is Against the Odds. Over the last four episodes, we've told the story of a high school group who set out on an expedition to climb Oregon's Mount Hood. High on the mountain, a storm hit, stranding them for days in freezing temperatures. Despite a massive rescue effort, nine people would not make it home. It's a harrowing story of perseverance and unthinkable tragedy.
Joining us today is author Rick Conrad. Rick's book, Code 1244, The 1986 Mount Hood Tragedy, was instrumental in putting this series together. Rick has climbed Mount Hood several times, and for his book, he interviewed survivors, rescuers, and the families of those who were lost.
Rick Conrad, welcome to Against the Odds. Thank you for having me. I know you grew up in Oregon, not too far from Mount Hood. Was this a story you remember hearing about as it happened? Oh, definitely. I was 18 at the time, and I remember leaving the apartment each day to go buy the newspaper. We didn't have the internet back then, so I really only received news from the 6 o'clock news or the newspaper. So you spent your whole workday wondering if there were any developments up on the mountain. As a community, we thought...
I thought authorities were going to find these kids right away. And, you know, imagine our surprise day after day when that just didn't happen. There was also a powerful illustration published in the Oregonian newspaper. It featured a silhouette of the mountain with nine Christian crosses ascending the slopes. You know, that had a very powerful and lasting impact on me.
So then what was your inspiration for writing a book about these tragic events so many years later? I figured you'd ask that. It's an embarrassing story. But in 1991, I was coming down from the summit and I did an unplanned North Face Variation.
I was climbing solo and I had a household hammer and a large screwdriver and a pair of tennis shoes. I was just poor and I couldn't afford better equipment. And I got to a point of safety high up on the spur and I met a woman up there and she saw me climbing and she gave me a juice box and she couldn't help but notice the household tools in my hand and started chastising me for not only putting myself in danger, but, you know, any volunteers who would have to rescue me if I got in trouble.
And she was right. And, you know, we sat down and we started talking about the 86 tragedy. I was mentioning something about the events that took place on Thursday. And she said that the real mystery is what happened Wednesday morning. And she said,
She just kind of left it like that, cryptic. I always wondered what happened during that rescue operation, and I was certain that someone was going to write a book. But the years turned into decades, and still, you know, no one took up the challenge. So I said, you know, why not me? One of the first people I interviewed was Barry Wright of Portland Mountain Rescue. He was the co-chief. We met at a McMiniman's, and I noticed he had a bag with him, like a duffel bag or something. It was really heavy. ♪
After the interview, I stood up, we were about to part ways, and he just suddenly hands me the bag and says, I've been waiting for you for 30 years. So I opened the bag, and inside it's just jam-packed with primary source documentation. Portland Mountain Rescues, you know, radio logs, the base camp inquiry report, sheriff's report, and even a transcript of a meeting that the sheriff held with all the rescue workers yesterday.
It was a goldmine, a research material that Barry had just been sitting on for decades. I kind of felt like Barry was handing me a baton and I ran with it. In our fast-paced, screen-filled world, it can be all too easy to lose that sense of imagination and wonder. If you're looking for new ways to ignite your creativity and open your mind to fresh perspectives, then let Audible be your guide. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, or any genre you love,
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Mount Hood is one of the most frequently climbed mountains in the world, but as you experienced, it can still be risky to summit. What are the potential dangers of climbing it? There are avalanches along the West Crater Rim, hidden crevasses early in the season.
And that south side route also has a couple large volcanic fumaroles up in the crater region that you can fall into and die. Oh, wow. There's just no oxygen in there. Rockfall in the late summer, uncontrolled slides. We had someone die in a fall on the Luthold-Kolar route just a couple months ago. Can you describe the terrain for us? The Willamette Valley is pretty flat, and then just suddenly this huge ice-clad volcano juts out into the sky. Wow.
Wow. Do you think the mountain being so easy to access makes it more risky or gives people a false sense of security? Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. I've climbed it in jean shorts and a shirt. And if the weather and the snow conditions are just right, it can be deceptively easy. There are several peaks in the Cascade Range that you have to park your car and do a lengthy approach just to get to it. But that's not the case with the south side of Hood.
You just drive up to Timberline Lodge, get out of the car, and boom, you're right there. Definitely a false sense of security.
Can the weather change on a dime? Yeah. Mount Hood exceeds 11,000 feet and it, you know, alters the weather patterns up there and you have to check the forecast, but some things can happen. In 1986, was it common for high school groups to go and climb Mount Hood? Definitely. In fact, Barry Wright just told us yesterday that his greatest fear was having a high school group get lost on the mountain in a storm. And his worst fear came true.
Portland's Wilson High School had an active outdoor program. And they had eight adults and three students making the attempt on the mountain Friday morning. And that's just the day after the snow cave was discovered. Wow. That's insane. They used to have a summit register on the summit of the mountain, a little log that you could sign and brag and say who you were.
And the one for 1986, I peeked in there to see who climbed it after the tragedy. That was a Santiam Christian High School, a private school in Corvallis. And they reached the summit on June 13th, about a month after the tragedy. Oh, wow. That's pretty soon. So yeah, quite a few groups up there. One of the things I learned was that permission slips signed by parents were essentially meaningless. They
Wouldn't absolve a school if a court deemed there was negligent behavior. I wonder if they have to sign waivers now. I'm not sure. In principle, a youth wilderness program on the mountain sounds great, but these are kids. How experienced was the group? I would say not experienced at all. Most of them were 15-year-old sophomores. There were a handful of 16- and 17-year-olds, juniors and seniors, who were called the advanced climbing team.
or ACT for short. They had participated in climbs on Mount Hood before, some successfully and some that got turned back due to bad weather. The climb was led by a teacher and youth pastor named Tom Goeman. What did you learn about him? What kind of guy was he? I'd call Tom a Renaissance man. Here's a guy with a PhD from School of Theology at Claremont.
To some, he kind of looked like a librarian, but you get him out there on the mountain, and he was definitely an athlete. I've got a couple reports from people that were part of climbing teams with him and said he was the strongest and fastest member of the group, always eager to reach the next objective. He was an Episcopal priest, a very interesting man. In fact, Frank McGinnis enrolled Patrick at OES in part due to the reputation of Tom Gaumont.
Frank learned that when the priests climbed with the kids, if one had a hangnail, he'd turn them all around. That was at least what Frank had heard around town. Before the tragedy, Tom was a beloved member of the Oregon Episcopal community. But looking back, were there any indications that he could push things too far? Yeah. If you've ever tried to teach someone top rope climbing, you know that
The climber is securely attached to the rope by a harness, and the rope goes up and passes through an anchoring system of some kind and trails back down to a belayer. There comes a point when you just have to have students deliberately fall or let go of the rock. They have to learn that the rope and rigging will catch them.
And the instructor always does a demonstration first. And I heard a couple people say that Father Tom took one of those demonstrations a bit too far, repeatedly letting go and slamming into the rock again and again.
to show how safe the overhead rigging was. And apparently that shook up some of the kids. But I think a better example and one that fits with the 86 scenario was provided to us by Sue Schultz, who manned Portland Mountain Rescue's radio base operations. She said that Tom Kimbrell, a guide for Outward Bound, was on one of the early OES climbs in the 1980s.
And, you know, like always, the students were pretty exhausted and you always want to keep enough gas in the tank to get back down. And Goleman was on that climb and wanted the students to keep going, but Kimbrel stood up to him and turned everyone around.
Yeah, I mean, you know, a couple of red flags. As the group set out on the expedition early Monday morning, were there signs that they could be getting themselves into trouble? How aware were Tom and the guides of the impending weather? You know, there are big signs and little signs, but I think there were a couple of signs within the first 15 minutes of the climb. As soon as they left the parking lot and started hiking in the snow, they were sinking up to their calves.
When I mention ideal conditions for climbing, you actually do want to kind of sink into the snow just a couple inches, just an inch or two. These guys were going up to their calves, and you have to know that that's going to slow you down significantly. Molly and Mick had both been to the summit before under better conditions. They would have known, and certainly Father Tom and Ralph Summers would have known, that it would delay the team significantly.
And it did. It took them two hours to reach Silcox Hut rather than the traditional one hour. And I think another sign is that Molly called for a 10-minute break after the team had only been hiking for 15 minutes. I mean, to me, that's a red flag. I know these two examples might not sound like much, but they're just like two dominoes that kept falling that day, one after another. Mm-hmm.
And I think he asked if anyone knew about the weather forecast. And I know that at least three people did. Ralph Summers told authorities that he listened to a marine weather radio while waiting for the school bus to arrive. And yeah, a storm front was predicted by late afternoon. Summers told Tom about that. And Mick Garrett, when we interviewed him, he said that he and Goldman were in the climber's cave turning in the paperwork.
And the priest told him about the pending storm front. So I know at least three people knew, but I don't know if that information was shared with the rest of the team, the rest of the students. Why do you think they pushed on? Pushing yourself is actually a good thing, but pushing yourself when outside factors can kill you, that's another thing.
I think initially they pushed on because there didn't appear to be any danger. I mean, they had great weather when they started out, you know, from the parking lot at 6,000 feet up to the 8,500 foot level. They had clear skies, you know, nice breeze, and you could still see the lodge below you.
So I think climbing or pushing themselves during those first 2,500 feet of elevation gain, that was fine. And in fact, you know, educational, I think it can help students learn how to work hard as an individual or within the group setting. I know it helped build self-esteem for me. And, you know, the whole group, in my opinion, though, should have turned around at that point.
Yeah, they didn't have the advancements to cell reception and all that sort of cell phones to hop on and just check and really stay updated. So I'm sure that affected it as well. You spoke to people who turned around early on. How did they describe those moments and the decision which likely saved their lives? Well, the sprays were the first to turn back, Hillary and her mother.
Hillary was a diabetic, and she and her mom just felt that they had done enough. And for them, turning back wasn't really an issue. And the next two were Courtney Boatsman and Lorca Fitchin. Courtney had some back pain and didn't want to aggravate it because she was going to be participating in a track meet, I think it was within less than a week. Lorca, who wasn't feeling well, served as Courtney's escort down the mountain.
And Lorca had no regrets about turning around. But Courtney said that she was second guessing her decision. Even before she reached the lodge, she wanted to be back up there with her friends. And John Whitson and Mick Garrett were the last students to turn around. And for me, it's the most interesting of the turnaround teams. John was pretty exhausted and wanted to turn around. He'd need an escort, though, and that's where Mick came in.
in the ensuing decades, each man kind of held hidden concerns. John was convinced that Mick was upset with him for missing out on a bid for the summit. And Mick could
could tell something was bothering John, but they just didn't talk about it for years. They eventually met for some beers and Mick assured him that he had no issue with turning around. They kept talking and it raised a weird question for them. Did a hangover and bad bean dip actually save both their lives? Yeah. Wow. If John hadn't asked to turn around, you know, would they have perished inside the snow cave? Yeah.
You know, I don't know. They don't know. You know, we will never know. But there's a level of survivor's guilt there, you know. Talking through these issues has helped and continues to help, but doesn't do anyone any good to keep these things bottled up inside. The emotions that they experienced must have been, even for their whole lives, just like to this day, really tough. Especially for Mick. Tom was his mentor. Yeah. Yeah.
Throughout all of this, was there pressure to keep going? I mean, you're in high school. Yeah, there's always pressure. I mean, you want to look and you want to impress yourself, too, frankly. Right. What can I accomplish?
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have encountered what's called a cloud cap. It's a cloud that forms near the summit region, and it seems to be stationary. And you feel like there are walls of soft cotton surrounding you. And everything's still and silent and peaceful. It's
But a whiteout, a whiteout is not a cloud cap. And I remember a reporter back then likened it to living inside a ping pong ball. There are no shadows, no defined shapes. You add to this horrific winds and curtains of horizontally blowing snow and freezing temperatures.
Several of the Portland Mountain Rescue guys that we interviewed said that during that particular storm, they were pelted with shards of ice. I guess that would be like shards of glass being thrown at your face all while you're trying to maintain your balance. And you also have to remember that visibility at one point was only five feet. So imagine being a 15-year-old sophomore trying to descend the mountain under such conditions.
It sounded like this was one of the worst storms ever to hit Mount Hood that time of year. Is that right? Yeah. Multiple people that we interviewed independently all agree on that point. This was a horrific storm. When the weather turned, Tom Gohmann initially didn't want to turn back. But one of the guides, Ralph Summers, eventually convinced him otherwise. What was the mood at this point? Well, several of the students expressed the desire to turn around. And they were just waiting for Father Tom to make that call.
When he finally did, there was a, I guess, a fundamental shift in the team's leadership. During the ascent, Tom was making the vast majority of the decisions and Summers served as his consultant. But the moment that call for retreat was made, Summers sort of became the, I guess, the de facto leader. That wasn't something that was openly discussed or debated among the team members.
It was just something that everyone seemed to accept. And I guess if you need one word to describe that mood at the time, I'd say desperation.
You've climbed Mount Hood many times. Can you describe how the group got off track and where the snow cave was built? Sure. If you recall, Ralph Summers was assisting Pat down the mountain. So he trusted Father Tom with the navigation. And if you're descending the mountain's south side route in a storm, you invariably go down what's called the fall line. That's the path of least resistance. It's just what
people do. And that will actually take you right over the cliffs of Mississippi Head. And Gohmund understood this, but he overcompensated in my opinion. He selected a line of 160 degrees rather than the standard 180, which would have led the team into the vicinity of Timberline Lodge. So this sent his team far to their left, getting off track. You asked about the snow cave's location, and if you're skiing up on Palmer Snowfield,
At an elevation of 8,200 feet, just kind of scoot east and you'll start heading downhill towards the glacier. And somewhere in that border region of White River Glacier, the cave was located somewhere on that 35-degree slope. I can't even imagine, like, because there's probably the worry of, like, falling down that slope and everything. As soon as Summers encountered that first crevasse in the storm, he knew they were no longer on Palmer Snowfield. He knew it.
It's haunting to think about the nights they spent in the cave. Did you get the sense that the group knew some of them might not be coming home? There was something in the court transcript, something I read that the kids in the cave, they were discussing, you know, am I going to die? Yeah, they discussed it in the cave for sure.
And when we were interviewing Mick Garrett, he was telling us that when Molly Shula came hiking out from Mount Hood Meadows, they met and she told him that the night prior, she was in the snow cave and can hear Father Tom outside in the elements in that storm just screaming this primal scream, almost as if he knew his indecision or delay in turning back caused these kids to be in this predicament. That just stuck with me.
And having been on the mountain yourself, I'm hoping you can kind of put yourself in their shoes for us and describe to us what it must have been like for them. Well, I think most people know that, you know, your batteries for your headlamp, they don't really last that long in the cold. And these guys thought they were just doing a quick field trip. So they didn't have spare batteries. So even though some of them had headlamps and flashlights, I'm sure those were turned on quite a bit in the first few hours.
But by night two and night three, there's just no way those were working anymore. So these poor kids were in this dark chamber. You think they were just like huddled together to stay warm or? You know, we talked to some of the rescue workers who found the bodies on Thursday.
And they show that Marion Horwell and Tom Gomon were sitting upright across from one another with their legs outstretched. And they had, you know, four of the teenagers lying on top of their legs. So the adults were attempting to keep the kids out of the kind of ice water that your body heat was forming underneath. Yeah, pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah.
This was a huge tragedy. Mistakes were made along the way, but there were also incredible acts of bravery and sacrifice. I'm hoping you can share some of the stories of humanity that are also part of this story. Oh, great question. Well, Ralph using his thermometer to take Patrick's temperature while Giles is nearby boiling water to provide Pat with a hot beverage comes to mind. And Susan said she had some lemon drops with her.
somewhere in her bag, so they added that to the water. In fact, Susan McClave is probably the best example. When Patrick was suffering from hypothermia up in the crater, the team placed him in a sleeping bag, and Susan climbed in to share her body warmth.
And Ralph later handed her the compass. During the descent and the whiteout, Susan served as the team navigator. Even inside the snow cave, she ensured people changed positions constantly in an effort to maintain circulation in their limbs. You know, she was only 17. That's an incredibly strong and selfless girl that, in my opinion, deserved to become a strong and selfless woman.
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The rescue efforts were massive. We only got to focus on some of this for the series, but can you describe the operation and the challenges and how many people were involved? Well,
Well, the Sheriff's Department was legally in charge of the search operation, but they lacked the mountaineering skill sets and the manpower. So they relied on the data and resources provided by Portland Mountain Rescue and the Air Force Pararescuemen. And on day two of the search, it became painfully obvious that even more resources were needed.
The Hood River Crag Rats were called, as were Seattle Mountain Rescue, Mount Hood Ski Patrol, Corvallis Mountain Rescue Unit, Nordic Ski Patrol, and even the German Shepherd Search Dogs from Washington State. The first great challenge was the weather, obviously. That storm didn't really clear up until Tuesday night.
The next challenge was to find that elusive snow cave. And, you know, everyone knew where Ralph and Molly had emerged from the storm, but no one could say with any certainty where they came from. I mean, not even Ralph or Molly. So everyone was looking for a white needle and a white haystack.
And you were asking how many people were involved. Through my research, I learned there were at least 176. And the overall volunteer man hours logged in at 5,874. So, you know, it was an incredible response from the community. Yeah, I was going to ask why it was so difficult to find where the group was stranded, but...
You know, needle in a haystack, like you said, in the middle of a storm. I mean, how do you find that in a cave? I mean, buried under four feet of snow. Oh, geez. Yeah. Can you speak a little about Rick Harder in particular? It sounds like his initiative and drive really helped find the snow cave and save lives. But some rescue workers questioned his methods. What did you learn about Rick?
Well, the bagger was a controversial figure, and he still is. There are emotional reactions to simply hearing his name nearly 40 years later. You know, on the one hand, if my stepdaughter was missing on the mountain in the blizzard, I'd want the bagger to go get her. Nobody disputed his courage or skill set, but multiple members of the search and rescue community took issue with some of his decisions.
Wednesday morning with three freezing patients up there on the glacier, the beggar repeatedly refused to have Ralph Summers flown up to the discovery site. And Jerry Janik of Portland Mountain Rescue was convinced that if Summers had been permitted to inspect the site, he might have recognized something that, you know, could have led to the discovery of the snow cave that very morning.
And, you know, if that had happened, that would have been around 35 hours earlier than when the cave was actually discovered Thursday night. Bill O'Brien of Corvallis Mountain Rescue agreed. He's still adamant that if someone else had been in charge of the pararescue in that morning, Ralph or even Molly could have been flown up there. And, you know, maybe the cave would have been found a day earlier. It's a hot issue.
Members of the search and rescue community acknowledge that Harder shouldered a lot of responsibility as a team leader. But they add that yet with that responsibility comes accountability. And O'Brien believes Harder was really trying to help. It's just that his ego kept getting in the way.
Getting back to your initial conversation with the woman you met while climbing Mount Hood, she mentioned something about the mystery of what happened Wednesday morning. Did you find out what that was? Yes, that was the miscommunications that occurred when the helicopter with Harder on board was flying over and they noticed what they considered to be bodies. They said over the airwaves, you know, we've got survivors. Frank McGinnis heard that in the parking lot and he was ecstatic, you know.
And then they switched to a military channel. And that freaked everybody out, obviously. Harder. Let the folks down at base know that they had three bodies. And that was in the sheriff's log, but it didn't reach Barry Wright or Dave McClure at Portland Mountain Rescue. The last thing they heard was survivors.
So there was a lot of confusion Wednesday morning. Yeah, it must have been so, so horrible for them to like hear these conflicting updates. You spent time with the survivors' families and the families of people who didn't make it back. Do you have any stories you'd like to share about your time with them and what you learned? I had lunch scheduled with Giles Thompson's mother.
Over the phone, she said she was a little nervous. Could she bring a friend? I said, sure. And that friend turned out to be Frank McGinnis. Oh, wow. Although she declined to be interviewed, you know, Frank was eager to cooperate, you know, right from the get-go. I even asked him, you know, why was he so willing to share memories of what's arguably the most painful chapter in his life? And he said, you know, no one's talking about my boy anymore.
And he wanted, you know, you, you know, readers and listeners to know that Patrick was here. He mattered. It's been great speaking with you today, Rick. But you also have your wife, Sherry, there with you. Hi, Sherry. Hi, Cassie.
Sherry, I understand you helped Rick with his book research and editing and were there for many of the interviews. Do I have that right? I was there for almost all of the interviews. He wrote the book. I did the editing and I encouraged him to turn it into a book, a bigger book.
Can you tell us about what it was like to sit with these families who have experienced this unimaginable tragedy? What did you take home from these conversations? First of all, I was very honored to be able to sit down with these people with Rick and listen while they talked.
I have to explain something. Back in 1986, because it was so horrific, a group from the school, the parents, they all kind of made a pact to not talk about this, especially with the media. You know, these kids were 15, 16, 17 years old, and they were brought into this pact. So when Rick started talking to these people, we found out a lot of them just needed to talk about this. They needed to be able to get it out, share what they'd been through, share people that they've lost,
You know, a brother, a sister, a son, a husband, a boyfriend, a best friend. So the pact was to kind of protect their emotional well-being from it all and not have to deal with the media and everything coming at them. Is that right? Yeah, I think they wanted the media to keep away from it. There was talk of a movie, you know, right after this happened. They wanted no part of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it sounds like from your conversation sharing these stories, it was part of the healing process. What did they tell you? Well, one of the most important people is not even mentioned in the podcast, but it was Patrick McGinnis's girlfriend, Sandy. She shared a lot about Patrick and Allison, who Allison was her best friend. Yeah. So we learned who these people were through the eyes of other teenagers, not just through their parents. Yeah.
And then everybody that we sat down with, whether it was a parent or a spouse or a friend, everybody cried. The search and rescue workers cried. I cried with them a lot. I cried at home while I was editing. There's been a lot of tears over this. Yeah, we cried yesterday. Well, we, me, I cried again. Yeah. Yeah.
Being so close to these people who have experienced such loss, especially their kids who were so young and also the parents that were there, too, the adults that were there. I mean, you can't not be extremely devastated over that. Yeah. Well, one of my most significant tears came with Mar Goman. Mar was Tom Goman's wife.
And she sat down, we talked, and she laughed and laughed. But at some point, the tears came, and she was shocked. She said she thought she had cried her very last tear over this long, long ago. But...
The tears came back and she said it felt good to feel that emotion again. Yeah, I can imagine sometimes just talking heals. Do you keep in touch with any of them today? We do. Funny thing, we just saw Chris McGinnis, Patrick McGinnis's younger brother yesterday. Oh, wow.
We had breakfast with Barry Wright yesterday. Frank McGinnis texted me this morning, let me know he just heard the first episode of the podcast. Ooh, before me. Yeah, we keep in really close contact with Frank. We've actually kind of adopted him as part of the family. Yeah, we're in good contact with him, but also Sandy, Patrick's girlfriend, is
She and Rick have really struck up a friendship and they contact each other with all kinds of questions back and forth. And then I've connected with Mick Garrett really well. Mick poured himself into this and really opened himself up and it was quite a process. But I watched Mick and he just has a special place in my heart, too.
Do you have a sense of how the community views the tragedy today after all these years? I think the community views it two different ways. I think if you have a little bit of gray in your hair like me, you do remember it. But I've also talked to a lot of young people. They had no idea this had ever happened. And you had mentioned earlier about not having cell phones or GPS or any of the tools of the trade that we have now. Young people are kind of really shocked about, you know, this story.
But I'm pleased that we can at least provide them with some of the information to answer those questions. Thinking about the aftermath, Rick, what are the lessons of a tragedy like this? I think that even teenagers are simply too young to speak up for themselves and turn around when they feel they should. And, you know, that's not only on the mountain, but in life.
In 86, these students just followed their designated leader who, you know, most likely suffering from the onset of hypothermia, kept moving the team higher and higher. What's that old adage? Question authority? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's so important. I remember, you know, in my hiking days and outdoor wilderness days, you know, speaking up was really scary as a teenager. And so that's really, it's a really important thing to know. What do you think is the lasting legacy of the Mount Hood tragedy? Legacy. Well, I mean, a legacy is, I think you should be able to point to something with concrete evidence and
That would have to be the mountain locator units or what we call MLUs. So, you know, rescue workers were disturbed to learn that on day two of the search, they had passed within something like 15 feet of the snow cave without even realizing it. So after the tragedy, one of the snowcat drivers had an idea. He found a company that made tracking units for bears and was just wondering if that technology could be applied to humans.
So MLUs were the result, simple radio transmitters that could act as an emergency locator beacon. And you could rent those at various outdoor shops. But those units were kind of like a double-edged sword for the rescue units. Rocky Henderson of Portland Mountain Rescue told me that at least three lives were saved in
By using them. But Rocky worried that novice climbers would merely rely on rescue teams, you know, rather than learn the basic skills needed to become self-reliant in the mountains. I mean, chiming in here, like I had this when I traveled to this trip around the world and, you know, in a lot of the countries I went to, there was no like cell reception or Wi-Fi or anything. And I had this little GPS device that was battery operated that I could just click SOS and it would send the local data.
authorities to come save me or whatnot if I was in a kidnapping or anything like that or climbing. So those things, I mean, thankfully, I think really help in this day and age with situations like this. Well, before we let you go, I'm curious, what is your next project?
I have a manuscript which is still being edited. It's called Six Days in Aspen, and it concerns Ted Bundy's first escape in Colorado. Oh, wow. I interviewed 32 police officers and sheriff's deputies, state troopers, and even a CBI agent to figure out what the manhunt for one of our nation's most
Notorious Serial Killers was like. Wow, I'm definitely going to pick that one up. I'm all about this crime stuff. True crime. True crime. Killers. It's just such a thing right now and it's really interesting. It's going to be great. Well,
Rick and Sherry, thank you so much for joining us today on Against the Odds. Thank you for having us. Thanks, Cassie. On our next episode, we'll have a special interview with adventure writer Peter Stark. His article, Frozen Alive for Outside Magazine, chronicles a man trapped in the cold as hypothermia set in. He's also the author of The Last Empty Places, a past and present journey through the blank spots on the American map. ♪
If you'd like to learn more about this event, we highly recommend the book Code 1244 by Rick Conrad. I'm your host, Cassie DePeckel. This episode was produced by Peter Arcuni. Our audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Our series producers are Matt Almos and Emily Frost. ♪
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