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From Wondery, I'm Cassie DePeckel, and this is Against the Odds. Over the last three episodes, we've told the story of how Yossi Ginsburg survived three weeks alone in the Bolivian Amazon. He had no shelter, no weapons, and barely enough to eat. And now, we get to hear what it was like firsthand, because Yossi Ginsburg is our guest today.
Inspired by his near-death experience, Yossi now gives talks about resilience to people all over the world. He is also the author of Jungle, a harrowing true story of survival in the Amazon. The book was the basis for the film Jungle, starring Daniel Radcliffe. Yossi was a consultant for the movie and for this series. Yossi Ginsberg, welcome to Against the Odds.
Thank you so much, Cassie. You loved adventure stories when you were a little boy. Was there an adventure you really looked up to as a kid or who inspired you? If I have to name one book, it was Papillon by Henri Chahier. He was accused of robbery, went wrong, and he was exiled to the Devil's Island, the most notorious prison on earth.
He tried to escape and he failed again and again and he sat in isolation for years but he never gave up and his spirit never broke. Finally, by learning the Tide,
and made a small raft made of coconut. He threw himself off the cliff to the tide and was taken by the ocean to the shores of Venezuela. There he escaped deep into the jungle, found a tribe, became part of the tribe, married the two daughters of the chief, and was having that exotic life deep in the Amazon. He was my hero, and that inspired my adventure.
Now, did you imagine being an explorer yourself? Yes, completely, completely, completely. That was my drive. I wanted to explore uncharted, untouched places and meet tribes and learn the language and the rituals and customs. I was always attracted to that aspect of adventure. Okay, take us to 1981 and your 22-year-old self. Where would you say you were in your life at that point? I was obsessed with that idea.
that I'm going to have a great, great adventure for myself. My adventure was already articulated in my head. I knew it was the Amazon. I knew it was the uncharted. I knew it was a tribe that was never explored before. And, you know, like in retrospective, it looks crazy. But at that time, the dream is escapism. But, you know, most dreamers by the dream create realities. My dream was meant to be a reality. There was no doubt in my mind.
I got to say, side note, you and I both have that similarity. When I was 21, I also spent some time in Rur and Abake, Bolivia. So when I was telling this story, I was like, wow, I can relate to that too with having that drive to want to experience the uncharted and explore the Amazon. I grew up in Israel, which is a very small, arid country.
We have a couple of streams, which we call rivers. So I had no clue what the Amazon really means. You know, it was for me more like a literary expression, the Amazon, you know, what it flers in the imagination. Same with uncharted, you know, you don't know what it means, uncharted. More than anything, you know, it was the romance of it. Yeah, completely different and so far away, right? Yeah. When you went off backpacking in South America, what were you looking for?
Well, of course, I had a backpack. But, you know, as a term, I wasn't like a backpacker. I came on a mission. I came alone and I knew what I wanted. I started in Venezuela because I wanted to meet Papillon. I wanted to meet Henri Charrière. At that stage, 1981, the only information was on the back of his book. It says Henri Charrière lives today in the town of Merida, Venezuela.
So I actually went to Merida. That's where I started because I wanted to get the blessing of Henri Charrière to initiate me as I follow his footsteps into my great adventure. Did you know much about the Amazon jungle when you set out? And looking back with the benefit of hindsight, were you a little naive perhaps?
No, I wasn't a little naive. I was extremely naive. I was extremely naive. A lot of very, very irresponsible conduct in terms of the preparation for this expedition. But look, people that know more, they do less. Because the more you know, you know what's impossible. What I wanted was impossible. But if you don't know it's impossible, then the impossible becomes possible.
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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. What was the early part of your South American trip like? Where did you go? What did you do? So when I arrived in Merida, Henri Charrière was already dead. I started traveling. I didn't speak the language. I was alone. And I spent a couple of weeks in Venezuela. And then I crossed the border to Colombia. What I want to say, advice to travelers...
When you travel alone, you're never alone. The tobacco merchant, he took me on a horseback and for a few weeks we were riding in the mountains of Colombia, just him and me. When I came back, I was already speaking Spanish.
You wanted to have an adventure, and you met some new friends along the way, Marcus, Kevin, and then Carl. Can you briefly describe each one for us and how you fit in with the group? It was within two weeks that I met the three of them. But it started with Marcus. It was early morning. I was in Puno on the Big Lake, the border of Peru and Bolivia, that huge lake.
Lago Titicaca. As the ferry left, there was one guy running behind on the dock. He missed the boat. The driver of the boat was the one to make the decision if to go back for him or not. And he did go back. And that moment changed my life and his life forever. Marcus came and for some reason he sat next to me.
And on the three hours boat ride, you know, we befriended each other. We shared food. We talked. Marcus was a very, very kind soul. He was beautiful in every aspect of the world. He was handsome in a very John Lennon-ish kind of way. He was playing his mandolin and singing beautifully. But he was also hurt. There was some, in his demeanor, there was some deep hurt.
sadness, his heart was broken. Anyway, I was young, but I really, like everybody else, fell in love with Marcus. You know, everybody loved Marcus. And Marcus really, really, really convinced me that I should go with him for two weeks across the border to La Paz, Bolivia. And Carl came in. Carl came in by following me in the streets of the old city. He was broad-shouldered, square-haired,
chin, dressed in khaki. That's how an adventurer would have looked. You know what I mean? There was something about him. I noticed him too many times. So I stopped and I looked at him. Why are you following me? And he came immediately. Carl started telling me about himself.
a geologist, an explorer. His specialty is the rainforest and the uncharted. The way he finds his treasures is by making contact with indigenous tribes because they know the terrain better than anybody else. In short, Carl was telling me my own dream. Later, I realized that he had that ability, like to sniff your dream off your shoulder and naturally
When I heard that the next expedition is in a week, I almost begged him, you know, please, please, please. That's my dream. Would you take me with you? And he said, of course I will. So now Carl and Marcus. Then Kevin came in and this was a surprise. Kevin and Marcus were friends. They were friends from South America. They met and they did a few trails before Kevin.
Kevin was kind of a famous traveler because he was like the most senior. You know, there were stories about him. He was an alpinist and he was a photographer and he was like really very tough guy. And Kevin said, look, you cannot trust anybody you meet in the street. And I said, look, I respect you both, but that's my dream. I'm going to do what I want to do. That's why I came to South America.
So the next day, the two of them came to suss him out. They had no intention to join this expedition. Both were holding tickets to go back home. But Carl, as I said, had a very special talent. Kevin Dream was the cover of the National Geographic, or at least a picture, one shot that will take him to the National Geographic site.
Kevin realized that if there is a tribe there that haven't seen culture before, that is dream fulfilled. So Kevin said, I'm counseling everything. I'm in. And Marcus, in a way, was kind of trapped between these two best friends. And we were all very excited. And Marcus said, OK, I'm in too. And that's how we met. Where in the Amazon were you going with Carl? Yeah.
Well, look, there wasn't a map of this area. This area is called the Madidi. And the Madidi jungle is less explored than other parts of the Amazon. And Carl said, there's one tribe in the Madidi that was never explored, the Toromonas.
And he said that he is after the Toromonas because he knows there's a lot of gold in this area. Of course, this was a cover story, but Carl was one of those, in a way, you know, like psychopaths because he believed his own lies and they became reality to him. He loved the Amazon and he was a very good guide. And also in terms of his humanity,
He's definitely not the evil, the bad guy, the criminal. It's more complex than Black and White. It was very colorful.
So we just knew a little creek somewhere that showed up called Colorado Chico. And that was our destination. And because he said, that's where we probably can meet the Toromonas. So we were trying to get to that point, which was without any trail and without any local guide. You know, we were four gringos. As you began your journey into the jungle, how was everyone getting along?
Well, initially, we all got along good. But there were issues. Like Kevin was a leader. He was a legendary backpacker. People told stories about Kevin's adventure. And for Kevin to follow Carl was strange, you know. And Carl was an amazing guy, but very authoritarian. It was clear one thing.
I'm the leader. He was a very good leader. He did everything for us. But it was something that Kevin had to swallow. And very early in the adventure, we start noticing that there are issues with Marcus and that Kevin had issues with Marcus. When did you start to notice that things didn't feel right? Marcus was afraid and Marcus was too gentle.
Marcus had a moss touching his face through the mosquito net, but he was screaming so hard that we all woke up in the middle of the night. And then there was a lot of killing, mainly monkeys. That's what we ate, you know. That first kill was terrible because...
It was a spider monkey and Carl was actually howling to get them closer. As they got nearer on the branches of the tree, he shot one bullet and the monkey came down with a big thump as the body hits the ground and we all ran towards that shot monkey.
And, you know, like my blood was bubbling from excitement, you know, it was like something primal and the monkey wasn't dead. Oh no. And Carl came and took the butt of the gun and just bashed him and killed the monkey. And Marcus was screaming and crying. And I realized Marcus wanted to save the monkey. He was devastated.
And Carl knew what to do. He took the monkey and he smoked it above the fire. When it was time to eat, Marcus refused to take a piece. I tried to take a chunk of, you know, I don't know, from the chest or something. Kevin was just holding a hand. Like, they were tough, Kevin and Carl. But Marcus refused to eat. And then Kevin got kind of upset. He said, look, you have to. You have to. That's survival circumstances.
you need to eat. And Marcus got a piece of meat and he tried to put it in his mouth and immediately threw it away and went to the bush to vomit. And then Kevin chased him. And I didn't know what happened, but when they came back, they didn't talk to each other anymore. And that shifted completely. Then this was the most tragic thing because the moment they were
not speaking to each other, I was put under pressure. I was young. I was 22 years old. I was very impressionable. Marcus needed me. He was alone. He felt alone. You know, Marcus told me, Kevin told him, we didn't get too far. You should go back to the last settlement and get out of here. You know, if you cannot take care of yourself, you shouldn't be here. And Marcus was really offended. Kevin was probably right.
Kevin said, "Jossi, spend more time with him." But I didn't want to be with Markus. I wanted to be with Kevin. It was more fun. And maybe some deep survival instinct drove me to stick with the strong guy. Or maybe I celebrated in a very ugly way Markus' defeat because Markus was so loved and so adored by everybody that I was jealous.
And here, Kevin preferred me to him. So there's all these dark emotions that you cannot hide from yourself. And the surprise here is that Carl stepped in. Carl took Marcus under his wing. But this became also extreme because Marcus became dependent on Carl to the degree of calling him daddy or papa. After the break, we'll hear more from Yossi Ginsberg about getting lost in the Bolivian Amazon.
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And then rush appears on the skin and covers the food. And Marco started complaining that it hurts. And actually the ones that took it seriously was Carl. Carl said, oh, we better treat it because that rush can spread and open and it's a mess. We didn't have much medicine. It was like, I think, Vaseline that Marco covered his feet with. And in private conversation told us, I don't trust Carl. Even though Carl was Papa for him.
Carl, he didn't control his stories. So we started noticing that his stories contradict themselves. And we realized, you know, we're not sure anymore. Kevin, he said, no, we cannot continue. We will have to go back. And with that, we decided to go back, which broke our hearts in a way. And Marcus felt even more miserable because of him now, all this big adventure failed.
And we were walking out when we hit the big river. And Kevin suddenly had the genius idea. He said, why would we walk back for a couple of weeks? So Kevin said, we'll run the Tuichi River. It will be faster. And, you know, like the spirit of adventure was kind of rekindled. Carl opposed that plan initially, but he got carried away with us. He was the most efficient in building the raft and knowing what to do.
until we got on the raft. And then we discovered that Carl doesn't know how to swim. He was so scared, but he insisted that he's the leader and he gives the orders. On the river, he was useless, or at least that's what Kevin said. And Kevin came from Oregon. He was an expert whitewater rafter. And he saw that Carl is making terrible mistakes.
And the fight between them was out. So we had to make choices, Marcus and me, and I sided with Kevin. Marcus sided with Carl. It was hell on the river. After a couple of days of dangerous trouble on the water, it led Carl to stop that madness, as he said, and suicide, as he said. He said, we have to get back into the jungle and I'll get you out of here.
As we know from the series, you and Kevin split off from Carl and Marcus. You call this event the heart of the story for you. Why is that? Well, because Marcus never came back, nor did Carl. And it was complicated because I didn't want to continue on the raft. I wanted to go out with Carl. But I had a certain dependency on Kevin. I didn't want to disappoint him. He said, if you don't join me, I'm doing it alone. I'm not giving up this adventure. And he convinced me.
but I actually did it to pacify him or to please him. Okay? So that was one thing. The other thing was that we had to tell Carl and Markus, and I was worried that Markus is going to say, "I'm going to join you." And both of us agreed that there's no point in Markus joining us, as I see it, because it was awkward. We didn't speak to each other. It was heavy the moment we were the three of us together. It was uncomfortable. So what was the point?
Plus, Carl was the expert in the jungle. The river was treacherous. It was obvious that they're going to have a much better chance to get out of the jungle. And we are the suicidal, mad people. You know, like we did the more dangerous thing. But still, what will happen if Marcus will want to join us? And Kevin Sand will tell him that we're not going to take him. Kevin went and told him, we think that you better go out with Carl.
It was hard for Marcus to accept, but he accepted it. And I will never forget that moment where we embraced and they turned. Kevin and I were on the river looking at them going up the tributary until they disappeared into the bush.
And then Kevin and I pushed the raft into the water. It was the 1st of December, 1981. From what you know about wilderness survival now, was it a mistake to split up? What's the value in staying together, even when some members of the group aren't getting along? I think that's the number one rule. You never, ever split. You always stick together. And that's why I say it's the heart of the story.
And it's very painful because Marcus didn't make his own choice on his life. He didn't come back. So I had a lot of guilt over the years. I just feel compassion and sadness for him and myself. And I make good of the story. I'm not ridden with guilt now, but I was for many years.
You got separated from Kevin on the turbulent river, and you found yourself alone on a bank in the jungle. What things did you have with you? The first three hours on the river were relatively mild, but then we were sucked into a canyon. The river got narrower, and from both sides, cliffs were building and rising everywhere.
And we're trying to keep the raft kind of like in the middle of the river and avoid rocks. But then there was a massive, huge black rock protruding from the river. So we threw ourselves on the raft, you know, holding on to the logs as the raft crushed on that rock. Then the raft just climbed out of the river.
and it was trapped on the rock. And then after a couple of hours, I think, that we tried to shake the raft off the rock and failed, Kevin decided he'll jump and swim to the bank. I'll throw the machete. He'll cut some vine. He'll connect the vine. He'll throw the vines back and pull me out with the equipment. It's not the way it happened. The moment he jumped, he released his weight. Basically, he pushed me
into the river. So he managed to get to the rocks, but I fell with the raft into the waterfall and I was sucked in actually. And I think I spent some 20 minutes in the river before I managed to get out. Initially, I had nothing, just shoes, trousers, a t-shirt and a flannel shirt above the t-shirt. And I spent the night and then in the morning, I was walking up the river when I heard the noise
And this little backpack waited all night in the water, trapped in a little whirlpool. So then I had a bit of equipment. A mosquito net, a poncho for the rain, medical kit, a little nail cutter, a lighter, and there was a mosquito repellent spray. And most importantly for me,
There was a talisman, something my uncle gave me when I was drafted to the army and something that I kept with me always. So I burst into tears when I pulled that bag because of the talisman. Most of us have been camping, but can you paint a picture for us of what it's like to be alone in the Amazon at night? It's the scariest thing. The darkness, you can almost touch it. It's so thick, you know, and heavy.
And the reason is that, you know, the jungle has a roof. The canopy is vines that climbs on the tree and they create another layer on top of the treetops, which means there's no moon and there's no stars and there's no sun. So at night, you don't see your own fingers. It's just pitch, pitch dark. And on the other hand, the predators are nocturnal.
And you had an unwelcome visit from a jaguar one night. What was going through your mind and body when you realized you had a big cat in your camp? Look, it was there all the time, you know, that's just, just that, you know, and when I was alone, jaguars were walking around when I was resting. The fear was paralyzing. And my way to deal with that fear was by hallucination. I actually didn't sleep any night in the jungle.
I created about four or five stories. They all turned to be about food. And I would run them like movies in my head. That's the only way that I could deal with the fear. But that night, I saw something moving and I saw the eyes. And I was prepared. This was my weapon. I slept with the mosquito repellent and with the lighter. I set it alight and screamed with all my lungs until I burned the entire room.
repellent, which gave a big flame. Where did you get that idea to do that? Yeah, yeah. It was from a James Bond movie. I remember that. And since I had the mosquito repellent and I had a lighter, I tried it and I saw that it works. It sets it aflame. As the days passed, you got weaker and weaker. Was there ever a moment when you'd lost hope? I went through a lot. Imagine every day was a huge adventure, just walking in the forest.
But on the 15th day, there was a massive mother of all storms. Torrential rain and trees were collapsing because the roots had nothing to hold on to. Everything was so soft and muddy and there was no river. It was just trees from bank to bank, you know, growing up in a very arid country. I didn't associate that with a flood.
and the flood came and it just took me. It was huge. It was a wave. And I managed to quickly collect my stuff, tied the shoes around my neck, and swim against the current. And after hours of fighting and tearing my feet to bits, I managed to get to a hill. And then I stayed on that hill for two days until like the water receded enough for me to come down. This was already 17 days alone.
Even then, my spirit was still strong. But what happened then was actually a noise that immediately crystallized to a noise of a coming airplane. Somewhere deep in my heart, I knew not only that the plane is there for me, I knew that Kevin is in this plane. So I had that surge of hope. They're coming for me. I managed to see the airplane for a split second. It was very high, and there was no way
No way in the world that I can signal to the plane or the plane can see me. And the airplane just passed. And that's what broke me. At that moment, like something even snapped in my chest, you know, like it just collapsed. I cried. It was good to cry. And then from that, I started praying. And I really prayed to die. I said, God, just let me die.
After the break, we'll hear about Yossi's rescue.
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Can you describe your rescue for us and how it nearly didn't happen? Because of the rains, there's no banks to the river. The flood a few days earlier taught me what can happen if I'm too close to the river. I drove myself, mainly crawling. At that stage, I couldn't even stand. So I was crawling, and I put myself some hundred yards to a bit more elevated ground. And then it was dusk, I guess, and I heard this noise.
It was like a bee or a wasp. So I didn't even open my eyes. I was just like, you know, moving my hands, trying to get rid of it. But the noise insisted and it grew, which made me open my eyes. And I saw something incredible. I saw this dugout canoe and realized this is the motor that makes that noise.
I wasn't even sure if it's not an hallucination, but then the canoe just landed and immediately as it landed, two people jumped and immediately, quickly, they turned the boat and they pushed it back into the river and jumped back on the boat and the boat started going downriver suddenly. I was shocked. I couldn't even scream.
And it was very hard for me even to get up on my feet. So I got up on my feet and the boat was going down river now. And there was a cliff. And if they would just go and veer around that cliff, they would disappear. Kevin, I didn't even see him. I didn't know Kevin was there. Kevin was actually crying like on his knees because he knew it was over. But something made him just get up for a second and turn his head back.
And he saw me. He didn't recognize me, but he knew it was me. And the scream came, Yossi, don't move. And then the boat turned and Kevin was running towards me. And I fell into his arms and we were both crying and crying and crying. But then Tico came, the owner of this dugout canoe. There were two Chupiamona, two indigenous people that were on the boat with him. And he opened a can of tuna and he gave it to me. That's the first thing I ate.
And he said, hurry up, hurry up. This is not a safe place. We have to go downriver. And they put me in the boat and we went some hour downriver until Tico was satisfied with the place to land and camp from the night. So lucky to have been found like that. Yeah. How does this experience sit with you all these years later? Do you feel any guilt?
I forgave myself, you know. So I was very candid also about my own darkness. I didn't try to make myself the hero of that story. I just told what happened. So I think that by telling the story and being so candid, it's like washing, you know, it's like bringing light to the darkness. And that helped me. And it helped a lot of other people, you know.
We probably have a shadow, each one of us, and have some darkness. I was young and insecure. I can have compassion for myself. And I know Marcus forgave me because he was a saintly being. But I made sure his parents knew the truth as hard as it was. What do you think happened to Marcus and Carl?
I'm glad that in the movie, Carl is shown as a shady character, but not evil or the bad guy, because he wasn't. I think that if anything, Carl sacrificed himself for Marcus. He didn't abandon him. And what I think or want to think that something very quick and violent like a flash flood
You consulted on the film Jungle, which came out in 2017. What was it like working on a movie that reenacted your very difficult experience?
It was a pleasure. Daniel Radcliffe, he did a very thorough work of learning who I was when I was young, in my early 20s, including listening to the music I was listening, reading the books I was reading, having a coach to teach him the bad Israeli accent, you know, and to speak English. And he lost 14 kilos just to feel hungry. That's what he told me.
It was amazing. It's very complicated to take two months and cut them into two hours. And I'm very impressed and very satisfied and very honored. It was a delight. I can imagine that some people would never want to go back to the Amazon after enduring what you did. But you've returned and even lived there for three years. How did it feel to go back?
In a way, that's actually the end of the story for me. Not my rescue, but the end of the story for me is going back 10 years later. It was '92 when I went back. It was Marcus's mother that sent me. Based on some rumors that he's alive somewhere in Peru. I didn't find him, but I was already in Peru, so I said, "I'll cross the border to Bolivia."
And I'll go and thank the people that saved my life. I had that opportunity. I met Tico, the owner of the Daga of Tkanu. And after a few days with him, I said, take me up the Tuichi to the Uchupiamona. The Uchupiamona, they saved Kevin. They found him in the river.
Later, they came with Tico and Kevin to Dorchupiamona that guided. So I wanted to go back to Dorchupiamona and thank them. So it's eight hours upriver in the dugout canoe just to get to Dorchupiamona. And they told me, thank you, we saved your lives. But our lives are in danger. The village is going extinct. We need help. Would you do something to help us save our lives?
And they said, "We have a dream. Our dream is we're going to build a resort on that lake not far from us. And it's so beautiful there that tourists from all over the world will come." So at that moment, I promised them, I gave my word that I will come back and help them. And as it happened, I stayed with them for three entire years.
And we built that resort. The resort is called Chalalan. It's spelled C-H-A-L-A-L-A-N. So what I want to say is I found myself suddenly deep, deep in the uncharted Amazon with a tribe of indigenous people, the Uchupiamonas. And in the three years that I lived with them in the Amazon, I was initiated as one of them.
And my childhood story was fulfilled. I did explore the uncharted Amazon. I did find my tribe and I did become one of them. And I found the treasure as well because that story is the treasure itself. And so my story is complete now. Yossi Ginsberg, thank you so much for joining us today on Against the Odds. It's my pleasure. I'm really honored and thank you for having me.
This is the final episode of our series, Lost in the Rainforest. Thanks to our guest, Yossi Ginsberg. Yossi speaks about resilience to people all around the world. His book, Jungle, a harrowing true story of survival in the Amazon, was the basis for the 2017 film, Jungle, starring Daniel Radcliffe. He was a consultant for the film and also for this series.
I'm your host, Cassie DePeckel. This episode was produced by Polly Stryker. Interview episode producer is Peter Arcuni. Audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Coordinating producer is Desi Blaylaw. Series produced by Emily Frost and Alita Rozanski. Managing producer is Matt Gant. Senior managing producer is Ryan Lohr.
Senior producer is Andy Herman. Executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman, Stephanie Jens, and Marshall Louis. For Wondery. Experience in person the unsettling true stories behind the acclaimed Dr. Death podcast at Exhibit C Live Presents Dr. Death, A Closer Look. This live tour experience brings you face-to-face with true accounts of doctors who caused irreparable harm, the system that failed to protect their patients, and the heroes who stopped them.
You'll hear from Laura Beal, host of the Dr. Death podcast, along with our panel of experts, whistleblowers, and hosted by suspects, Matthew Scher. It's an important evening with one of the most iconic true crime podcasts of all time. Don't miss your chance to be part of the conversation. Exhibit C Live presents Dr. Death, A Closer Look. Tickets on sale now at drdeathlive.com.