Kidnapped in the Desert | Interview with Jessica Buchanan | 4
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From Wondery, I'm Cassie DePeckel and this is Against the Odds.

Today, we wrap up our series on Jessica Buchanan, a humanitarian aid worker who survived 93 days in captivity after she was kidnapped by Somali land pirates. She was held at gunpoint, kept outdoors in the desert, starved, and deprived of medication she needed for a kidney infection. But she didn't give up. She fought every day to stay alive, thinking about her husband Eric hundreds of miles away.

And then on January 25th, Navy SEAL Team 6 parachuted into Somalia in one of the most dangerous rescue missions ever undertaken. She described her memory of the first moments of the rescue mission on 60 Minutes. And I think, OK, well, this is it. This really is truly the end.

And I cover up with my blanket again and I just start saying, oh God, oh God, oh God. And I just remember thinking, or maybe I'm saying out loud, like I cannot survive this. Since that day, Jessica has turned her trauma into something good. She's an inspirational public speaker who encourages people to tap into their resilience. And Jessica is here with me today.

Hi, Jess. Welcome to Against the Odds. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for coming on the show. This is unbelievable that I'm here with you right now, and I honestly can't even believe it.

Well, sometimes I feel that way too. So I'm glad we're both here. I have so many questions about the kidnapping and the experience of being held hostage. I can't even imagine. Do a lot of people say that to you? Like they can't even imagine and they're just kind of dumbfounded? Yeah, I think that's generally the response I get. You know, I'm out sharing my story publicly a lot and people will say that and they'll also say like, I just could never have imagined

done that. And I'm like, of course you could, because what else were you going to do? Yeah. It's kind of like about survival, right? Like what, what was the first thing on your mind? Like right when you got out? I mean, the thing I was thinking about was getting back to my husband, Eric, you know, I, I think there were so many moments that I had to just scrape through

for hope that I was going to make it out alive and get back to my husband, get back to my family and my dad, my sister, my brother. That was everything that was on my mind was just getting back to my people. So Jessica, I want to hear about the place in Somalia where you were kidnapped and held for 93 days. What was it like there? It's actually called the Green Line and it was this invisible place.

kind of territorial boundary that separated the town of Galkayo, Somalia, where I was working for this particular field mission. And the town was divided into North Galkayo and South Galkayo. Predominantly, they were kind of controlled, if you will, by two different clans. And these clans had a lot of

conflict over basic resources. And I think there was a tradition of conflict that went back hundreds of years. And again, this is my very basic understanding as just a foreigner, as an expat going in. For my particular organization, the Danish G-Mining Group, we had a field office located in both the north and the south parts of Galkayo. And because staff that belonged to a particular clan couldn't

from the north to the south and vice versa. We had to have separate staff on both parts of Galkayo, on both parts of the Green Line. We had to have separate field offices. We had to have separate vehicle convoys, you name it. So crossing over that Green Line was something that I was really worried about. And it ended up being, you know...

the catalyst for the kidnapping. I was held not in the Green Line or in those green zones, not in North or South, but even further south of South Galkayo in a place called Edado that most Westerners don't go to. And if they do, they don't get out safely. Wow. So had there been any other kidnappings there that you were aware of prior or after? Yeah.

There had, there had been a couple of years prior to my particular incident, Michael Scott Moore, an American German was taken right outside the Galka airport. He's a journalist who had been, I believe he was doing research on pirates and he was taken about a week before my rescue and he was held for over 900 days. Okay.

Wow. Yeah. I feel like there's just so many that go missing, you know, journalists and humanitarian aid workers that we don't necessarily hear about. Yeah, I think one of the reasons we don't hear about it so much is because it's really for the safety of the person who's being held hostage and for their families. The more it's talked about in the press, the higher profile it is, then the more money the kidnappers are going to want. So there's a whole protocol around why you're not hearing about it until somebody has been

rescued successfully. And in your story, you had a little bit of like some hesitations going into Somalia. How worried were you to actually go there? I was based in Somaliland. It gets confusing if you don't know the region. It's just confusing. Somalia is kind of divided into three parts. Two of them are self-declared autonomous regions. I lived up in the northern part in Hargeisa, Somaliland.

That's where most of the NGOs were based. It was very peaceful. And I'd been up there for a couple of years. My husband had been working there for years and years. And I had canceled this particular training to go down to the Green Line twice before because there were really significant security issues happening. And of course, you know, as an expat, you're not usually the target. It's like a bus full of Somali women and children that are being blown up by an opposite clan or something. So I'm not going to be on that bus. I'm not going to be the target.

But I just didn't feel like my mission was life-saving, right? Like I wasn't handing out food. I wasn't giving out medical care. I was training local staff to go out and work in their villages. And I was trying to make things safer through education. I worked in armed violence reduction and community safety for sure, but it wasn't like immediate life-saving action. And I just...

Kept getting a lot of pressure from my organization that if you don't fulfill the duties of your position and your job, then it was like kind of this undercurrent of being bullied really in the workplace. And I was afraid that if I didn't go, I was going to lose my job and I didn't stand up for myself. And I remember very, very clearly that.

Oh, no.

fear take over. And I talked myself out of listening to myself. And yeah, that is a really hard lesson that I had to learn. It's hard. Yeah. Did you always know that you wanted to be an aid worker? And what called you to do this? I don't think I knew about aid work. I grew up in

in the Midwest, I grew up in church. So there was always this overarching belief that was instilled in me that you've been given this life where you have all of these like resources and these gifts and the skill set. And so you should go out and try to help

whoever needs help and make the world a better place. And I'm a teacher, a trained teacher by profession. So I ended up going to Africa to teach and, you know, met my husband, Eric, and that's how I ended up in Somaliland because he was working up there. And I think I've always just had this calling to serve people, to work with people, to connect in whatever capacity I'm

able to. So it looks different when you're in different parts of the world and at different stages of your life. But I was young and it was an adventurous journey.

exciting way to spend your days. And I loved it. So describe Somalia for us kind of in your own words. Did you at any point travel with armed guards and that sort of thing? Even in Somaliland, we were required by law to travel with armed guards. I always had someone with me. I was never alone. It depends on what region of Somalia you're in. It's, you know, like how people will describe Africa as a country and you're like,

it's like 50 something countries. Like it's all very different. But I think as a whole, like Somali people are so interesting. They're so passionate and really vibrant. And it's a really beautiful culture. I've really enjoyed my time there. But you know, it's a hard environment. It's harsh. It's desert. There's a lack of resource. There's a lack of water. You know, at one point,

Within the last 10 years, the life expectancy of a Somali man was like age 42. I'm 42 now. So that means my life would be over. You know, women are still dying in childbirth. They're traveling for like six,

60 miles to get to the nearest hospital to have babies. It's still very primitive in part. Human rights issues are rampant. Education access is not available to the majority. So in terms of humanitarian issues, if you will, they still need a lot of help. They need a lot of support. They need a lot of infrastructure. And people will ask me why I ended up in a place like that. And I think we're all called to something different. But

I think helping a country or a region in a place that has been just riddled with civil war for years and years. And now in the Southern part, like in Somalia and Mogadishu, you've got Islamic terrorists and extremists, you know, bombs going off all the time. It's just, it's a, it's a hard place and there's a lot of need. There's still a lot of need. Yeah.

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I feel like that question, like the answer to that question, which it changed over time, you know, it's been a few years or more since the kidnapping and since the rescue. And I've been thinking about this a lot lately and,

I've been thinking about what part I play in this story, you know, as this experience ended with me being rescued by SEAL Team 6. And I'm so infinitely grateful for that. I've also really had to figure out what part I played in the whole scenario. And I remember there was a morning, I don't know, maybe 40, 45, 50 days into captivity. And the whole time I kept thinking to myself, like, I am.

I am not that girl. I am not the girl that should be out here. I worked with all these really tough, strong women who had military backgrounds, who were just like,

absolute badasses. And I felt like they would be able to handle the situation way better than I could. You know, I'm kind of sensitive. I'm an very empathetic person. I live my life ruled by my emotions. And I was just like, I am not that girl. Like I am not the person that should be out here. I can't, I can't do this. And, um,

I woke up one morning, you know, dripping wet from dew and it's cold and I'm out in the middle of the desert, basically by myself, surrounded by trees.

these men with guns. I've not eaten basically for weeks. And, um, Paul, my, my co-captive comes over to me and I'm sitting up, I'm trying to like wring out my clothes and he brings me a cup of tea and he sits down next to me on my mat. And I looked at him and I said, you know what, Paul, I've been thinking, and I realized, you know, I think I am a badass. And he was like,

looked at me and started laughing and he was like, damn straight you are. And I think from then on, I was able to experience everything a little bit differently. I was able to stand up for myself a little bit more. It changed my mindset from going from, well, I'm not the girl who's going to survive this to being like, you know what?

I am that girl and I am going to survive this. And it's taken me a long time to get to this point where I can understand this and internalize this. But I feel grateful in some ways to have had that experience because I have a touchstone now to look back on because now I know what I'm made out of. I am that girl.

So when you first got there, I'm sure you never thought you would be there for that long. Or did you like how long did you think you would be held there? No. Well, I mean, again, that goes like in stages to, you know, the first week or two, I thought we're going to get out of here in a couple of weeks because we're humanitarian aid workers and we came here to help. So surely, yeah.

The villagers are going to put pressure on these guys. And I didn't understand at the time how massive a web of organized crime this was. This wasn't just some gangsters, just some bad guys who wanted to make a little extra money. This was highly organized crime.

It had far reaching connections into the UK and the US and they wanted millions and they weren't going to let us go until they got it. And so, um,

I had to just think about it incrementally. Like I remember I would walk in circles sometimes just around a tree or just around my mat because I wasn't allowed to walk very far. And I would get myself to the point where I would I would just say, OK, you know what? You can do this for 30 more days. You don't have to think about anything past 30 days anymore.

And then when we get to the end of that 30 days, then we will, we'll reconvene and we'll figure out how many more days we can go from there. And I think, you know, that's kind of how I have dealt with the pandemic. That's how I deal with everything now is I just take it.

in little chunks. So if you break it down, it makes it more survivable. Definitely. That makes total sense. And you had the UTI and the kidney infection. I can't even imagine the immense pain you must have been in. Can you talk a little bit about how much harder it was based on the physical conditions that you were experiencing? Yeah. I mean, it just wore me down, just the physical pain of like

having a urinary tract infection, you're out there in the desert. You're the only woman. No one really cares if you're in pain. They just need you alive and up so that they can cash you in. And the pain, just the fevers, whenever I say this to a group of women, I see at least like 10 of them wince because the pain of a UTI is horrific. And then it started going into a kidney infection. And I knew once

We were at that point, there was really no turning back unless I got into like a hospital. I needed an IV. I needed a doctor. I needed to get out of the desert. And that's what I told our family communicator on my last proof of life call in January 16th of 2012. Like, if you don't get me out of here somehow, I'm going to die. Yeah.

What emotions do you remember feeling most vividly throughout this experience? I think that's another one of those things that's like, it's a range. There's so many. It could change in 20 seconds. I mean, the first emotions I remember feeling the most were panic, absolute sheer panic and anxiety. You know, it's interesting.

I'd say after the proof of life video, after we made the proof of life video, which probably was about, I don't know, 30, 40 days in, Paul and I realized that we were in it for the long haul. And so we made a pact with each other. The first thing we promised each other is we wouldn't try to escape. We wouldn't leave the other person behind. We promised each other that we'd been taken together. So we would stay together until we can leave together again.

And then the second thing that we promised each other is that we could feel any emotion that we wanted to feel. We could feel rage. We could feel anxiety. We could feel even happy at some points. But the only emotion that was off the table was despair. Once you let yourself dip your toe into the well of despair, there's like no turning back. It just swallows you up.

We couldn't go there. And, you know, it sounds so cliche, but sometimes, you know, we made each other come up with five things that we were grateful for, for that.

for that day. And it really is incredible how that can give you strength to make it through something you didn't know you were capable of making it through. Let's talk about the days leading up to the rescue. What did you learn later about how many people were involved in this rescue effort? Well, I mean, I had no idea that a rescue was even a possibility, to be honest. When I visualized myself getting out, it was always

A ransom was paid and my organization had come through for me and that I would be dropped at another car and we'd be put on a plane and flown out. Like that's how my fantasy would go. And so a military intervention or a rescue never was within the realm of possibilities for me. I don't, you know, I didn't really...

think that they did that for civilians. I figured they just did it for military personnel, right? Yeah, me too. In terms of how many people were involved in the rescue effort, I couldn't put a number on that. I mean, just yesterday, somebody reached out to me and they were involved in my rescue somehow. I mean-

if not thousands of people were involved in this rescue effort. It's insane and it's incomprehensible to think about the amount of resources and the, and the president too. Yeah. I mean, he was briefed. President Obama was briefed pretty much every day. I think about whether I was still alive or not.

just an inspiring amount of collaborative force put behind getting me safely home, you know, which when I sit here and talk about it, like those are the moments where I'm like, this is so surreal. Like I'm a school teacher from Ohio. I'm nobody important. Like it's really hard to comprehend sometimes. And it's very, very humbling.

Can you walk us through kind of what it felt like to be rescued? Oh, goodness. To hear English. You know, I mean, when the guns started going off, all I could think was that we were just being kidnapped by another group. It was probably al-Shabaab. I didn't know where we were. Maybe we were closer to Mogadishu than I had thought. So maybe it was, you know, Islamic extremists coming to get us. I mean, I thought...

I thought I was kind of done for, like, I thought this is it, you know, like there, I can keep my, my spirits up so high, but I don't know how I'm going to survive another, uh,

Another group, you know, we had at least figured out how to operate in the group that we were in. And the thought of being taken by another group was just like so scary and so overwhelming. And when I started feeling somebody shaking my arms and my legs and then the blanket was pulled down from my face, I couldn't see anything. You know, it was just black sky, black masks.

And I was just immediately in shock, right? I couldn't figure out which way was up or down. I was so, I was just in so much shock. And then I will never forget the sound of this young American man. His voice, he sounded just like my baby brother. And he said my name. You know, no one had said my name in 93 days. And he said, you know, we're the American military. You're safe. And...

We're going to take you home. And all I could say over and over again was like, you're American. You're American. I don't, you know, I just, I just kept saying it like, like an idiot because I couldn't figure out where, how they knew where I was and, and where did they come from and how did we not hear them? And it was just too big for my mind to comprehend. Yeah.

Wow. And you don't know any of them, right? Like you'll never know of who that man was who said those first words to you. I've met some of them. Oh, great. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That was really special. Yeah, that was actually really life changing for me. I think that helped me. It kind of brought some things full circle for me to be able to, you know,

wrap my arms around them and to thank them and to hug them and to show them pictures of my kids. And, um, wow. Yeah. Yeah. It was,

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kidnapped every day, but it does happen more than one would think. And all the stars have to be aligned. Like it really, when you peel back the layers and again, I'm not a technical expert, you would need to talk to somebody from SEAL team six, probably to really understand the, the nuances and the implications. But a lot of times these rescue operations are

are not successful, whereas like maybe one of the captors will shoot the hostage so that they don't take them back alive. Our military members will be killed in the line of duty. And I think that that is something I feel so grateful about.

For the fact that all of the service members, all of the seals that parachuted in to rescue me and Paul all made it out safely and alive. Cause I don't know how I would have been able to carry that around with me for the rest of my life. So when I say I'm lucky and that we're all lucky, like I mean that in the most infinite sense of the word.

So when the gunshots started flying, the one person who was kind to you ended up becoming a casualty. Yeah, we called him helper. We had like code names so that we could talk about everybody without them knowing that we were talking about them. Yeah, Dahir. Dahir was... Dahir died. Yeah, and that was hard, I think.

It's hard to explain, but he was kind and he was there as a result of just being born in the wrong place. You know, he had eight kids to feed. He was never cool to me. I do believe he protected me many times from physical harm. And it was a really unfortunate, unfortunate casualty that he was there that night and that he died.

Yeah. I can't imagine that was easy, you know? And I don't think it's like Stockholm syndrome or anything like that, right? Like I was not becoming sympathetic to their cause. But they're still human beings too. And I, you know, things...

Things get gray really quickly. So something that really struck me about your story is that in addition to being this unbelievable journey for you, it's also a love story. So can you tell me a bit about how your journey of survival included picturing a life with Eric? Yeah, I know it is interesting. It's funny to think about your like relationship with your husband being in a book as a love story, but, but it is, it is. And, um,

Yeah, I met Eric in a hoppin' nightclub in Nairobi, Kenya. Actually, almost, well, yesterday was our 12-year wedding anniversary. Oh, congrats. Happy anniversary. Yeah, about 14 years ago we met, and we started talking, and we've been talking forever.

ever since. And he's from Sweden. He's so different from anybody I'd ever met. I just felt safe and protected and inspired. And we had this beautiful life of adventure. I would have gone with him anywhere. So I ended up in Hargaisa Somaliland.

And we'd been married for about a year and a half at the time that the kidnapping had happened. I lost my mom. And so we had to go through me in some really deep grief. And that's a lot for a newly married couple to have to navigate through. But we managed. And then I disappeared. I think, again, it's interesting to go through a circumstance as extreme as this because I

You really quickly figure out what matters. And if you're going to make it out of this thing alive, then I'm done putting things on hold. I'm done putting work first. And I knew deep down in those parts of my soul that had not been explored before that Eric was my soulmate. He was my kindred spirit. And I would just picture him.

lying in bed next to him. I thought I was pregnant at the time that I was kidnapped. I think I may have had a miscarriage while I was out there. And all I could think about was getting back to him so we could start a family. I knew I wanted to be a mom. I knew I wanted him to be the father of my children. And I knew I wanted to build a family and a life with him. And so

I put that picture, I just would walk through our apartment in my mind and I would straighten the couch cushions and I would climb into bed next to him. And always there was a baby there, a baby boy. And I would just live in my mind that way until I could get out. So what was it like seeing him again for the first time?

I know you had those restrictions, too. You had to kind of go through, right? Yeah. Introduce slowly. Yeah, I was part of the Department of Defense's hostage reintegration program, which was voluntary. But I figured, you know, they'd gotten me out. So they were the experts. So I was going to take advantage of whatever mental health support I was going to be offered. So, yeah, it was very, very restricted program.

I didn't see him until we met on a military base in Italy. And I only got to spend an hour with him in a hospital room. But it was enough. Like they totally know what they're doing. And any more than that would have been too much. But, you know, just, yeah. Like it was just unbelievable to be standing there looking out the window as it was snowing on a military base in Italy when I had been there.

two days before baking and wasting away so sick in a Somali desert. And, and I just remember his head coming around the corner of the door. And I thought that he was the most beautiful face I had ever seen. Yeah.

It's a lot of emotion. It's a lot. But you guys have a powerful bond that just probably can't even be broken now. And you're just the strongest ever. Yeah. Yeah, we are. I'm lucky. I'm lucky in that regard. So once you were rescued and taken back to a hospital and eventually the States, what was it like in the weeks and months after for you?

Was it hard to find someone who could help you? Absolutely hard. I think it's still difficult to find trauma counselors who, I mean, I've had therapists tell me like, I don't think I can work with you because the level of trauma is so far outside of their frame of reference. But in terms of like the aftermath, I,

I got pregnant about two weeks after my rescue, which I always joke our book is called Impossible Odds, but the impossible odds was the fact that I got pregnant two weeks after all of that. Looking back, I see getting pregnant really saved me from...

Maybe some of the more negative side effects that PTSD can have on someone, maybe some unhealthy coping mechanisms, because I had to survive now again for somebody else. And I had this little life that I needed to take care of. And so my focus, I think probably processing through a lot of the trauma and the PTSD was delayed because I was then dealing with

a pregnancy and a newborn and navigating motherhood. But I've spent a lot of time doing a lot of work and will continue. Like this is my life's journey. You know, it'll never, it'll never be over. It'll never be done. And I'm okay with that. Yeah. Well, what was the hardest part for you post rescue? Making decisions about what we were going to do, where we were going to live. I had never, I,

Considered leaving Africa. I was in it for the long haul. Eric and I met.

there. We got married there. My son was born in Nairobi about less than a year after the kidnapping took place. But then shortly after he was born, it became apparent that it was going to be really tough on me. I had postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression and PTSD. And we made the really hard decision to leave and relocate in the States.

And I have always said that my biggest heartbreak so far in my life has been losing my mom. But my second biggest heartbreak was leaving Africa and the grief that came with that. You know, I think I recognize that I didn't ask God.

you know, the universe, why this had to happen to me. But the question that I could never answer, get an answer for was why did it have to change everything? Because I couldn't go back to my job that I loved. I tried to go back and work in the office in Nairobi and it was, it was hard and I didn't like it. They wanted to send me back to the field. So I ended up having to quit.

And then having to, to move back to the U S grateful for the opportunity, right. And the freedom to be able to do that, but it wasn't ever my plan. So I had to reinvent myself again. And as much time as I spent visualizing during the kidnapping, what life was going to look like, I never visualized it like that. And so I had to start over again.

Wow. And did you find that certain people in your life treated you like differently since this happened?

Yeah. I think for a long time, people just didn't know how to handle me, like what they could talk to me about. And if I was going to like freak out at any given time, I think it's always worse in your head, but I just kind of always felt like a freak, you know, like I had this weird, really extreme thing happened to me that was very public. How do you make conversation with the mom on the playground? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. How long have you been here? How's your day? Yeah, you know, and I would try to like shuffle around and try to hide it and cover it up and somehow it would come out and then they would look at me like I grew another head and then I just...

It was very isolating and very lonely. I spent a lot of time feeling very sad and very alone. But I realized that the more I started talking about it and the less I stopped trying to hide from it, I felt very strongly like I wasn't going to let this define me. And then once I...

Once I surrendered and let it start defining me, I found that I own the story and the story didn't own me anymore. And then I just was able to stand in my own power in this story. And now I can walk onto a playground and be like, yeah, this is me.

this is what I do. I professionally speak about being held hostage in the desert and all of this stuff. And they may look at me like I grew an extra head, but it doesn't bother me anymore. I can't even imagine. But the power that you have now and that you're able to

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I did see him shortly after the rescue. I introduced him to my son. So it would have been like a year after the kidnapping. And then we kept in touch a little bit via email. We had two very different experiences. And we also had two very different perspectives on how things, why it happened and how things played out. And so we haven't had any communication for the last couple of years. But last I heard he was doing well.

Oh, that's great. Have you told your children about what happened? And if not, will you tell them? And what will you tell them about it? So they've always known that there was something because, you know, we have copies of Impossible Odds laying around and there's a picture of me and then a military helicopter. And they also my brother is a Green Beret. And so they also have that military reference.

But I would always say that I got lost. You know, mama used to work in Africa. And one time I was out helping some people and I got lost. And these men came out and found me and they helped me get back to where I needed to be. But then a couple of years ago, I wasn't there, but my husband called me up. It was a Saturday afternoon in the summer and they were at the pool and a kid had come up to them and said, did you know that your mom had been kidnapped by pirates?

And so, you know, they're kids. So they're thinking like Captain Hook pirates, but they like go running to Eric and they say, someone just said, mama had been kidnapped by pirates. Like, is that true? So we sat down and we had the conversation and there are lots of pictures in the book and there's a picture of,

I still shot of my proof of life video. And my son was very hung up on the fact that there were guys behind me with guns, but I will never forget this moment because you know, this picture of me, like my eyes are swollen, shed. I've lost all this weight. My like, I haven't brushed my hair in months. And my daughter, she's four at the time. She looked at the picture and she looked at me and she said, you're so beautiful. And then she wrapped her arms around me and gave me a hug. And I thought, wow,

you know, I was, I just cried. It couldn't have gone any better. And I'm sure as they get older, they'll have more and more questions. I'm a big believer in just when they're ready to ask the questions and they're probably ready to hear the truth. Wow. Incredible. I also want to know about what you, what you're doing today, because this kind of changed your life in unexpected ways. Oh, well, a lot of things. Um, and I'm, I'm

super excited about where I am in my life. I did go back to teaching for a couple of years thinking maybe I could still be that person, but it turns out I'm not. When you go through something like this, it changes you. And so you have to reinvent yourself. So I do, I speak professionally. I just did a TEDx talk, changes your proof of life. And I really tap into that idea that

big change, little change, even if it's change you've chosen or change that has chosen you as an opportunity to collaborate and, and,

to finding your life's purpose, which is really where I feel like I'm at. I'm also a co-host, a podcast. We aim to have conversations, really authentic, honest conversations about topics that people don't talk about because they're uncomfortable. So I feel like in my having practice with lots of uncomfortable conversations, I'm

It really has set me free to be who I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to be doing. So we try to model that. I feel very passionate about getting women up on stages and also getting them paid to speak, to share their stories. So my long-term goal is to hopefully set up a foundation for young women who need help

maybe crafting their experiences and practicing using their voice. I feel very passionate about women being able to stand in their power and use their voice. And so I have big plans. So I'm excited. I want to ask you something that really resonated with me from your book. You talk about how you felt like in captivity, your voice was taken away from you. What did you mean by that?

Well, I mean, in the most literal sense of not being able to use your voice, I wasn't allowed to speak. I mean, there were weeks where I wasn't allowed to open my mouth and utter a word. I remember at one point when I was finally allowed to talk, like my voice didn't work anymore. It was like so hoarse coming out because I hadn't used it.

I wasn't allowed to show any emotion. They would get really, really upset and aggravated and violent. And I got so used to just raging silently and not uttering a sound and trying to make myself as invisible as I possibly could and as small as I possibly could. And I think, you know, on some level,

as a woman, you know, we are so used to keeping ourselves small and keeping our voices quiet and internalizing things. And I mean, that's how I got into this situation in the first place, right? Like I let a lot of other people tell me that my fears were not, I let them invalidate them. And I, I let myself be pressured and, and,

One of the things that I promised myself while I was sitting there was, you know, I'm never going to let that happen to me again. And so that's one of the things I take into my work. That's why I talk about this so openly. That's what I hope to mentor young women is to help them find confidence to listen to their intuition and stand in their own power and use their voice, you know, speak out and speak up and stand out.

Yeah, and not stay silent. No. I'm so glad you're doing that. What was your journey like to find your voice again after this whole experience? What did that look like? Good question. I imagine it was just...

Just a lot of practice, you know, a lot of practice, a lot of allowing myself to experiment and figure out who I was and what I wanted to become. A lot of writing, a lot of connecting, a lot of crying. I mean, just a lot of processing. Yeah. And I, you know, just keep talking, just keep talking. Hmm.

You speak a lot about resilience. Do you think there's a psychological element to resilience? Is it about personality? I think it's both, really. I think I've thought a lot about this and I've done a lot of research and studying because I do wonder what makes people survive certain things and then some people...

Yeah.

realized early on that they could take away my voice. They could take away the food. They could take away all the creature comforts. They could take away my time, but my kidnappers couldn't take away my ability to think my thoughts. Right. And I was in charge of those. And the thing about life is that sometimes it requires you to dig deep and then dig deeper

Deeper still and to just keep doing it. Never stop digging and never stop finding out more about yourself. Yeah, I think that's the beautiful thing about these these kind of experiences. And I'm sure you can speak to that as someone who has really challenged themselves and made some really interesting choices.

But you just get to see what you're made out of. And how amazing is that? To be able to stand there and be like, I'm Cassie and I'm the fastest woman to travel all of the countries in the world and to know the hardship that you had to suffer and how you had to dig deep, but what you're capable of. And I feel like on this side of things, I feel really lucky to know

what I can survive. So what about the person you were back then is most different from the person who you are today? I think that the person that I am today is a lot more assured of herself, but definitely have a handle on my boundaries now that I didn't have before. And I understand, well, I understand pain and sadness in a different way than I did before.

I also understand that nothing lasts forever, you know, and not the good or the bad. I trust myself and I trust the universe. I trust that I'm taken care of. Like I am a, I'm a meaning maker. I need my life to have meaning and I needed to find the meaning in all of it. And so, yeah, I think time is a different thing now. And I really do try not to take any of it for granted. Yeah.

Powerful. Well, Jessica, thank you so much for being here with us. It's truly been an honor to meet you, and I can't wait to hopefully speak again with you. Thank you. It's been such an honor to be here with you today, Cassie.

This is the final episode of our series, Kidnapped in the Desert. I'm your host, Cassie DePeckel. Davy Gardner is our producer. Our associate producer is Brian White. Our audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Our consultant is Jessica Buchanan. Our executive producers are Stephanie Jens and Marsha Louis for Wondery.

My name is Georgia King, and I am thrilled to be the host of And Away We Go, a brand new travel podcast on Wondery Plus, where we'll be whisked away on immersive adventures all around the world. Where we go, what we do, what we eat, drink, and listen to will all be up to my very special guest.

We've got Ben Schwartz taking us on a whirlwind trip around Disneyland. We'll eat a bowl of life-changing pasta with Jimmy O. Yang in Tuscany, Italy. And how do you feel about a spot of sugaring off with Emily Hampshire in Montreal? And away we go. We'll immerse you

in some of the wonders of the world. We're going to be seeing some yellows and vibrant oranges. And the shoes clicking against the cobblestone. If you're looking to get somebody in the mood, have them look at the Chicago skyline. You can listen to And Away We Go exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Georgia, do you know what joy sounds like? I think I'm hearing it right now.