Himalayan Spy Mission | Retrieval | 2
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Captain Mohan Singh Kohli walks down a dark hall in a concrete government building in New Delhi. He pauses when he reaches the office of Rameshwar Nathkal, the director of a secretive branch of India's Intelligence Bureau. It's early 1966. A few months ago, Kohli had to call off a climb on Nanda Devi when winter arrived early and it became too dangerous to continue.

The climbers were trying to secure a plutonium-powered spying device on top of the mountain to monitor China's nuclear program. But less than 2,000 feet from the summit, they were forced to turn back, leaving the device behind. Since then, in meeting after meeting, Kohli has had to defend his decision to leave top-secret CIA-built spy equipment unattended near the summit of India's tallest peak.

In the end, everyone agreed that he made the right call. It would have been too dangerous to attempt to bring the device back down in extreme weather. Still, the incident is a dark spot on his record. He's anxious to redeem himself. Now he hopes Kao is about to give him that chance. Coley has been summoned to New Delhi to get Director Kao's orders on how to proceed. He adjusts his turban, knocks on the office door, and enters.

Director Kao sits behind his neat wooden desk. He gestures for Coley to sit. The CIA has changed their mind. Now they say their spine device can be placed at a lower elevation. Coley is stunned.

The entire reason they attempted to place the spy device atop Nanda Devi is because it's more than 25,000 feet tall. The CIA said the device had to be that high in order to monitor the Chinese atomic bomb tests in Xinjiang province, hundreds of miles away. What changed, sir? Cao smiles. I guess the CIA's brilliant researchers miscalculated. Look, all I know is that now we can aim for an easier peak.

All right, which one? You'll be climbing Nundakote. You're familiar with it, I believe? Coley is relieved to hear the choice. He summited Nundakote six years ago. It's no walk in the park, but still much easier than Nundadavey. Its slopes are less steep, and its peak is 3,000 feet lower than Nundadavey's. When do we leave, sir? Don't get ahead of yourself. First, you'll need to retrieve the device you left on Nundadavey.

Coley nods. He hadn't considered this, but it makes sense. The spying device runs on a nuclear-powered generator. It was one thing to leave it for a few months, but it's not safe to just abandon the device forever. Now, this means he has two missions. A return climb up Nunnedadevi, followed by a second climb up Nunnedakot.

You go back to Nundadavi in May, which should give you plenty of time to assemble your team. Any idea who you'd like to bring? Kohli considers this. They left the spine device at 23,750 feet. Getting back up there will be a challenge, but they know the route, and carrying things down a mountain is much easier than carrying things up.

"We can do it with a much smaller team, sir. I'd say four climbers and six Sherpas. I won't even need to be there. I can coordinate by radio from New Delhi." "Good. And what about the Americans?" "Tell the CIA to sit on their butts and we'll take care of it." Exactly what I wanted to hear. Coley leaves the office with his mind racing. He's told Cow the retrieval mission will be a breeze, but he feels a wave of unease as he makes his way down the hallway.

The mountain known as the Bliss-Giving Goddess has already embarrassed him once. He hopes it won't do it again. In our fast-paced, screen-filled world, it can be all too easy to lose that sense of imagination and wonder.

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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. From Wondery, I'm Cassie DePeckel, and this is Against the Odds. In 1965, the CIA and India's Intelligence Bureau hatched a plan to spy on China's budding nuclear program from atop a high peak in the Himalayas.

They selected a team of world-class Indian and American climbers to scale a mountain called Nanda Devi and place a nuclear-powered spine device near the summit. But in October, as the team got closer to their final elevation, winter storms made the rest of the climb too dangerous. They secured the device and its plutonium fuel generator high on the mountain and left it there.

In the spring of 1966, the climbers returned to Nundadevi to retrieve the device, but they were unprepared for what they would discover when they got there. This is episode two, Retrieval. Gucharan Singh Bangu takes another bite of his pakora and tries to hide his frustration. The food is delicious at this small restaurant. He just wishes he was sharing it with someone else.

Bangu is sitting across from a police officer named Mohinder, who's complaining to everyone within earshot about the food, the prices, the weather, everything. This has cauliflower in it. Did we order cauliflower? No, we did not. Take it back. The waiter apologizes and takes the plate. But Bangu thinks it's Mohinder who should be apologizing. He's done nothing but whine since the minute they met.

It's May 16th, 1966, and Bangu and Mohinder are in the town of Joshimut in the foothills of the Himalayas. They're here to recruit porters to help with their climb up Nundadavi. Bangu has been stuck with this man Mohinder for several days. For some reason, Indian intelligence officials assigned Mohinder to the climbing team at the last minute, even though he has no climbing experience.

The expedition needs to set up base camp on an elevated basin in the shadow of Nundadevi. But getting there requires a long trek up the steep Rishiganga Gorge. And Mohinder has been doing everything he can to weasel out of this part of the journey. Now, as Bangu tries to eat his lunch, Mohinder starts griping about it again. "Why do we have to trek up to base camp? We have helicopters. The CIA has helicopters. Why are they such cheapskates?"

Bangu just nods for the hundredth time and continues eating his pakoras. But Mohinder won't let it drop. We should radio them and demand a ride. We'll need all our energy to get to the peak. Why should we walk in like peasants?

Bangu can't take it anymore. Unlike this buffoon, he knows how important this mission is. Look, Mohinder, we go on foot because we've been ordered to go on foot. We got cauliflower because you ordered cauliflower. No, I didn't. Be quiet and listen. We're following the plan, and the plan is we trek to the mountain. Now let's get moving. Bangu stands and calls for the check, while Mohinder sits there in a silent huff.

He makes sure that Mohinder sees him leave a large tip. And with that, Bangu shifts his thoughts back to Nanda Devi. Harish Rawat trudges through the snow towards the warmth of the campfire. It's late in the morning of May 24th at base camp, 16,000 feet up Nanda Devi. As he makes his way to the fire, Rawat scans the camp.

He's working for the Intelligence Bureau as the on-site leader, so he has to make sure everything is correctly set up. He counts all 11 climbers and sees the tents are assembled for sleeping, cooking, and communications. He also notes the piles of food and supplies. Everything appears to be in order, but they're behind schedule. And this is driving Rawat nuts. Climbing is in Rawat's blood.

His ancestors scaled mountains as they helped survey India's borders in the 19th century. Rawat himself was one of the nine Indian climbers who summited Everest in 1965. He also once survived a 3,000-foot fall during an avalanche. He's a tough guy hidden underneath a round baby face.

Their Nanda Devi team will be much smaller this time. Just five Indian climbers, including himself, and six Sherpas. The Americans stayed home. Beside him, Gucharan Bangu sipped some tea that he warmed over the fire. Bangu was late getting to base camp. He only arrived yesterday. At first, Rawat was annoyed with him, but he soon realized it was all the fault of Mohinder, the policeman.

Still, they can't afford to waste any more time. Rawat sits next to Bangu by the fire. Are you ready to go tomorrow? I'm ready. It's Mohinder I'm concerned about. He's never climbed. What's he been doing here? Rawat just shrugs. The bosses want Mohinder, so they get Mohinder. But Bangu is right. So far, the policeman has been nothing but trouble. Nearby, he hears Mohinder barking commands at one of the porters.

Rawat looks up at the sky. He may be in a bad mood, but at least there are no storm clouds. First thing tomorrow, the Indian climbers and the Sherpas will start ferrying supplies and gear up to Camp 1. Rawat looks over at his friend. "Let's make this a good climb. Let's pray the sky stays this blue." Bangu nods and smiles. Rawat smiles back, but he knows it's a pipe dream. This mountain is anything but predictable.

Dawa Norbu Sherpa steps out of his tent to see that nine inches of snow have fallen overnight. They won't be going anywhere this morning, not until the sun gets high enough to melt some of the snow. It's just after dawn on May 26th. Norbu is at Camp 1, 19,000 feet up Nundadavi. He spends a moment taking in the view, snow-capped peaks in every direction.

He squints and can almost see base camp thousands of feet below. Norbu was on the climb up Nunda Devi in October when they had to abandon the device. He hopes this one goes more smoothly. Norbu starts a fire as everyone else begins to wake up and emerge from their tents. Mohinder approaches and puts his hands in front of the fire. When do we get going? When some of the snow melts. Afternoon, probably. What? What are we supposed to do until then?

Norbu and the five other Sherpas could use this time to recuperate. They've already made several treks between base camp and camp one to haul supplies. With all the food, tents, extra clothing and climbing gear, it's far too much to take in just one trip. To his credit, Mohinder has also made multiple trips carrying supplies. But with nothing to do but wait, Mohinder now looks restless. Maybe he's nervous, Norbu thinks.

He doesn't seem to have climbed so much as a tree before this. Mohinder walks off towards his tent, while Norbu stays by the warmth of the fire. Another Sherpa climber comes by and kneels next to him. There will be tough days ahead higher up the mountain. At higher altitudes, they won't be able to easily cook or sleep because of the thin air and its effects on the body. They have to conserve their energy and enjoy whatever comforts they can now.

Norbu hears some huffing and puffing behind him. He turns around and sees something he cannot believe. Mohinder is doing jumping jacks outside of his tent. Norbu leaps up. What are you doing? Calisthenics. Maybe you don't mind sitting around all day, but I want to make sure I'm staying in shape for the climb. You need to stop. Your body hasn't had time to adjust to the altitude.

But he's too late. Suddenly, Mohinder falls to the ground. By the time Norbu and the other Sherpas get to him, he's coughing and gasping for breath. Mohinder inhales sharply, wheezing. When he exhales, pink froth forms at the corners of his mouth. Norbu has seen this before many times. By overexerting himself at high altitude, Mohinder has brought on an acute attack of pulmonary edema.

His lungs are filling with fluid. If he isn't moved to a lower altitude and given proper medical attention, he could die. Norbu radios down to base camp, asking them to send a doctor up as soon as possible. Mohinder's climb is over. Gucharan Bangu yanks on an orange safety rope, half buried in rocks. It's 11:30 AM on June 1st, and he's three quarters of the way between Camp 3 and Camp 4.

Most of the safety ropes that were put in place during the previous climb have been covered by falling rocks in the eight months since. He's annoyed at having to redo all this work, especially after losing time last week. Because of heavy snowfall, it took two days to get Mohinder back down to base camp. Since then, Bangu was relieved to hear by radio that the policeman is on the mend.

He may dislike Mohinder, but he wouldn't wish pulmonary edema on his worst enemy. After that setback, they're finally making good time. Now, they only have 250 feet to go before reaching Camp 4, where they left the spine device last year. But this final push to Camp 4 hasn't been easy. Last October, this part of the mountain was covered in snow. Now, in spring, most of that snow is gone.

Instead, they're scaling a steep slope covered in loose, crumbly rocks that constantly break under their crampons. The climbers keep slipping, and their bodies are covered in bruises underneath their heavy coats. Bangu feels snow sting his cheek and realizes he's now in the middle of a light blizzard. But just above him, through the falling snow, he sees a flash of orange rope.

He recognizes it as the last stretch leading up to Camp 4. He turns and calls down to the three Sherpas just below him. "Almost there!" The Sherpas give him a thumbs up. Bangu turns back to finish the climb. Minutes later, he hoists himself over a rocky ledge and stops on his hands and knees, catching his breath. He's done it. He's reached Camp 4.

As the three Sherpas climb over the ledge to join him, Bangu surveys his surroundings. There's a collapsed tent, half buried in fresh snow, a butane canister, and some food containers. Then he looks to his left, where they secured the spine device in a crevice on a rock ledge. They had left the generator and antenna and the other parts in cardboard boxes and tied them with rope and anchors to the rocks.

The device was built to withstand extreme weather, and they figured it could easily survive this long. But when Bangu looks for the ledge where they left the parts, it's not there. The whole ledge and everything that was on it are just gone. For a moment, he stands there scanning his surroundings in disbelief. Maybe he's confused and looking in the wrong place. He turns to the Sherpas, who all shrug their shoulders.

One Sherpa points at the empty space where the ledge used to be and shakes his head. That confirms it. Bangu is looking in the right place. But where there had been a ledge, now there's nothing. Bangu feels a rising sense of panic. The ledge is truly gone, and with it, the spying device.

including its generator, which is filled with almost four pounds of plutonium. When you're hiring, time is of the essence. That's why more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide use Indeed to find exceptional talent fast. Indeed's powerful matching engine works quickly, so quickly that, according to Indeed data worldwide, every minute, 23 hires are made on Indeed.

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He calls out to one of the Sherpas who's been helping him search the area around Camp 4. Over here! I see something! Until now, the only trace of the spine device they've found is a crushed empty box. A box that used to contain parts of the device. Between the crushed box and the wires below, Bangu can guess what must have happened. The rock ledge where they left the spine device simply fell off.

Maybe in an avalanche. It's a worst-case scenario. He knows he should radio base camp. But first, he wants to make sure the device isn't sitting down on that outcrop by the wires. He calls over to his Sherpa partner. "I'm going down for a closer look." Bangu clips into a safety rope, and his partner slowly feeds the rope as Bangu goes over the edge.

He descends carefully, using his ice axe and crampons to work his way down towards the wires. Halfway down, he steps onto a narrow ledge and feels it move. He freezes. The ledge is part of a large boulder, which is supporting more rocks above him. If it comes loose, it could bring a chunk of the cliff face down onto his head. He carefully sidesteps onto firmer rocks, and the loose boulder stays put.

Finally, he reaches the outcrop. A few stray wires and cables lie within a mess of broken rock. He tugs at a wire, hoping it's attached to something more substantial. But it comes free easily. There's nothing else here. No sign of the generator or any more parts of the spying device. And when he glances down, he sees thousands of feet of void. He signals to his partner that he's coming back up.

It's time to pass on the bad news to Basecamp. Director Rameshwar Nathkal lights a cigarette and watches the American man on the other side of his desk pacing back and forth. Kau takes a drag of his cigarette and wonders if the man is about to break something. He's tempted to join him, but decides he'd better keep his cool. It's late afternoon on June 1st.

A few hours ago, a radio message came in from Guchadang Bangu on Nundadavy with some shocking news. Cao then had to break that news to Tucker Googleman, the CIA man pacing in front of him. Googleman stops and looks at Cao like he wants to kill someone. It's missing? What does that mean, it's missing? My climbers are looking for the parts now. Well, I'm glad they're not tossing a frisbee. Where the hell could it have gone?

Kao understands why Gugelman is upset. Kao is too. He just hides it better. Kao and his CIA counterparts approved Captain Coley's decision to leave the device on Nunda Devi. But now, if it's not found, Kao will have to tell the prime minister that he lost a plutonium-powered generator in the Himalayas. And Gugelman will have to answer to his bosses back in Washington. He clenches his fists at his sides.

Tell me this isn't as bad as it sounds. It's an empty mountain, right? How hard can it be to find? If it was lost in a rock slide or avalanche, it could be very hard. The fall was likely thousands of feet, from what my men say. We need to clean up this mess as soon as possible. Tell your men to keep looking. In the meantime, I'll request an American recovery team.

Kau picks up his phone to call Kohli and tell him the bad news. His climbers aren't going anywhere until the device is found. Harish Rawat raises a pair of binoculars to his eyes and scans the mountainside above him. He's standing in a snowfield 18,000 feet up Nundadavi.

More than a mile above him is Camp 4, the place where the spy device was last seen. Could it have fallen this far? He scans the vast snow field with his binoculars, but all he sees is white. It's June 9th, more than a week since they discovered the device had disappeared. They've been scouring the mountainside for it ever since, but so far, they've come up empty. Rawat puts down his binoculars and takes a sip of water.

He wasn't supposed to be climbing much on this expedition. He was directing things from base camp until a week ago, when they made the horrible discovery. Now, until the device is found, every member of the team has been ordered to join the search. Rawat hooks his canteen back to his pack. They searched Camp 4 as thoroughly as possible, but the device wasn't there. It had clearly fallen somewhere.

From the ledge at Camp 4, it was a sheer drop of nearly a mile to the next possible landing spot. Rawat pauses to think. If the device didn't come to a stop here, it could have fallen into one of two steep gullies below the snowfield. That would mean a plunge of another 3,000 feet into a ravine that collects everything that tumbles off the mountain: rock, ice, sand, not to mention running water.

Below that, it's possible that the device was swept onto a glacier that flanks Nundah Davey's western side. A glacier that's six miles long and 250 feet thick. Taken together, this is a huge area to search. There are countless large and small crevasses where the missing parts could be hidden. There are the remnants of rock slides where the device could be buried dozens of feet down.

Then there's the glacier, where it could have been crushed under constantly shifting ice. And depending on how far the device fell, its plutonium fuel rods could have been broken open, which could expose the searchers to deadly radiation. Rawut puts away his binoculars and starts the walk back to base camp.

At least the climb up Nundah Devi is over, he thinks. All the camps have been cleared and the gear brought down to base camp. He radios one of the Sherpas who's searching for debris in one of the gullies. This is Rawat. Any luck? We found a steel ring. Not sure if it's part of the device. Rawat can't believe it. One steel ring after a week of searching. How much longer will they be out here?

Gucharan Bangu bends down in front of a pile of loose rocks. He picks up a handful and puts them in his pocket. Then, he heads over to a small stream of meltwater and fills his canteen. He's walking with his climb leader, Harish Rawat, after another day of searching for the missing spine device. They've been instructed to collect rock and water samples from this area, though Bangu isn't sure why.

At this point, Bangu isn't even sure why they're still searching at all. It's been nine days since they discovered that the device was missing. If they haven't found it by now, it seems unlikely they ever will. And even if they do find it, it will almost certainly be broken beyond repair. Surely the Americans could just build another device. But until further notice, the search continues. Or it will tomorrow.

Right now, they're heading back to base camp to rest. Bangu turns to Rawat and shakes his head. "It's like we're looking for a needle in a haystack." Rawat laughs. "A needle in a haystack covered in eight months of snow." As they near base camp, Bangu sees a man walking towards them. When they get closer, Bangu recognizes him. He's an American CIA technician named Gordon Sleeper.

He was in Alaska last year when they learned how to set up the device. Bangu moves to shake the American's hand, but Sleeper takes a step back and signals them to stop. That's far enough, my friends. Sleeper holds up a black box in one hand. It's covered in dials and gauges. This is an alpha counter. It detects radioactivity. I need to check and see if you've been exposed. Hold out your hands. Bangu does as he's told,

Sleeper passes the alpha counter over Bangu's hands, looking closely at the box's gauges as he does. Then, he scans Bangu's feet and the rest of his body. As he's working, two other Americans approach with alpha counters and proceed to scan Rawat. They also check Bangu's rock and water samples. Sleeper looks at the device and then at the two Indian climbers. You're all good. Nothing detected.

At first, Bangu is relieved they haven't been exposed to radiation. But then he realizes that also means they're no closer to finding the missing device and its nuclear power generator. Bangu can't tell which the Americans would prefer. He knows what he'd prefer: to get off this mountain and go home. But if the CIA has arrived, that means they're not calling off the search anytime soon.

As they walk back down to base camp, Bangu asks Agent Sleeper a question that's been gnawing at him. If those boxes did detect radioactivity, what would that mean? Sleeper shoots him a pained look. It would be bad news. It could mean radiation sickness for you. And it would be especially bad if we detected it in the water. All the streams in this valley flow into the headwaters of the Ganges River.

the whole river could be poisoned. Bangu's blood runs cold. The Ganges is India's holiest river and the main water source for some of its largest cities. For the first time, he understands why this search for the spy device is so vital. If they can't find it, it's not just a setback for their mission. It's potentially an ecological disaster.

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In the back of a U.S. Air Force helicopter, an American nuclear expert grips the side of his seat and adjusts his helmet.

He tries not to look through the open door next to him, down at the slopes of Nundadadi below. He's afraid of heights. But today's exercise was his idea, so he had no choice but to fly up here, to 23,750 feet. It's August 16th, and months of searching for the spying device have led nowhere. In June, the CIA sent in metal and radiation detectors,

The climbers have swept the glacier, the snowpack, and the gullies. They've marked off searched areas with red tape, but so far it's all been in vain. Not a single sign of the device has been found. So today they're trying something desperate. The American takes a sip of air from his oxygen canister. He can already feel the effects of the thin air at this altitude. The pilot speaks to him through the helmet radio. - Thousand feet, sir.

The American looks out the open door and a wave of vertigo washes over him. Staring down all those thousands of feet makes him dizzy. He's kicking himself for having this crazy idea in the first place. The CIA's best analysts have been theorizing about where the device might have ended up. He had another suggestion. Why make guesses when they can replicate the fall? 23,750 feet. This is it, sir.

Next to the American is a box containing 12 butane canisters. The pilot is now hovering over the site of Camp 4. From here, the American is going to throw the canisters out the door one by one. His hope is that they will fall in roughly the same trajectory that the spine device fell. So if they find the canisters, they'll know the general area where the device landed. The helicopter lurches in the gusty wind, and the American's stomach lurches with it.

But he manages to pick up the first canister and toss it out of the side of the helicopter. He watches it strike the mountain and disappear into the abyss. He repeats this with the other 11 canisters, tossing each one at a slightly different angle. When the last canister has bounced out of view, the American leans back and exhales. "What a shot in the dark," he thinks. But if this doesn't work, they may finally have to admit the unthinkable.

The device, with its plutonium-fueled generator, has been lost for good. Gucharan Bangu leaps from one boulder to another, using his hands to steady himself. He pauses occasionally to wave a metal detector over the rocks and gravel beneath his feet. But the detector stays silent. Bangu is descending a gully, which he's been searching for six hours. The sun is getting low in the sky, so he's heading back to base camp.

He's sweating after all this climbing and scrambling. But huddling around a fire still sounds pretty good right now. It's August 17th, the day after the American nuclear expert dropped a dozen butane canisters down the mountain. Gordon Sleeper and a team of climbers are searching one gully for the canisters, while Bangu's team is searching the other. Last time he checked in with Basecamp, not one canister had been found. At least he's got the metal detector.

He chuckles to himself. It's not like he's found nothing at all. Two hours ago, he picked up a rusted juice can. He continues waving the detector as he gets closer to base camp. He finds a couple tent pegs along the way and shoves them in his pocket. Then he hurries down the gully to make sure he's back before dark. At camp, he greets others already returned from the search. Sleeper asks if he found anything. Bangu shows him the pegs and the juice can.

Did you have more luck than me? We found two canisters, but nothing else. So we've got 10 missing butane canisters and one missing generator. What now? Sleeper tells Bangu that the search will likely be called off soon. Even with the metal and radiation detectors, they haven't found a thing. The plutonium may be contaminating some underground river right now, but they have no way of knowing.

The device may stay buried underneath rock and ice until some poor explorer happens upon it 30 years from now. The only thing they know for certain is that they're no closer to completing their original mission: setting up a spy device to monitor China's nuclear program. Captain Mohan Sengkoli stands over the stove, watching creamy brown liquid simmer in a saucepan.

When it begins to boil, he turns off the gas, places a strainer over a ceramic mug, and pours in the hot liquid. He carries the mug of steaming chai to the living room, where his wife Pushpa is listening to the radio. It's March 15th, 1967. Your tea, my love. Thank you. Pushpa smells the tea and holds the cup in her hands, taking in the warmth.

Did you hear what they said on the radio? No. Anything interesting? Koli hears a slight tremble in her voice as Pushpa answers. They said China is celebrating an explosion of some kind of atomic bomb. Koli has always tried to downplay the danger of his job to Pushpa. But after five years of marriage, they have very few secrets between them.

They both know that China's latest nuclear test means Coley might have to leave his wife and children again, probably for several months. Coley sips his own mug of chai and thinks again about the spine device and where it could possibly be. Not that it matters now. This latest news from China means he'll soon have a new mission with a new device.

Sure enough, the phone rings. Pushpa gives him a knowing look, and he forces a smile as he picks up the receiver. It's his new boss at the Indian Intelligence Bureau, Anand Bahai Dave. He replaced Director Cow last year. You heard the news? Yes, sir. Time to climb then, isn't it? Kohli hangs up, picks up his mug, and stirs his tea. Pushpa comes over and kisses him on the cheek. Can I help pack your things? Yes.

He nods and watches her leave the room. It was over a year ago that he first spoke with Director Kao about the next phase of their mission, placing a spine device on a different peak, Nunn-Dakot. Now, finally, after all the delays and setbacks, they can proceed with that plan. The CIA is bringing a fresh new spine device, and Coley will once again lead a mission to carry plutonium up a merciless Himalayan peak.

This time, he can't afford to fail. This is episode two of our three-part series, Himalayan Spy Mission. A quick note about our scenes. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but everything is based on historical research. If you'd like to learn more about this story, we recommend Spies in the Himalayas by M.S. Coley and Kenneth Conboy, as well as An Eye at the Top of the World by Pete Takeda,

I'm your host, Cassie DePeckel. This episode is written by Sean Mervive. Our editor is Steve Fennessy. Sound design is by Rob Gielaga. Our cultural consultant is Harmeet Singh. Produced by Emily Frost, Matt Olmos, and Alita Rosansky.

Our senior producer is Andy Herman. Our managing producer is Matt Gant. Our senior managing producer is Tanja Thigpen. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer-Beckman, Stephanie Jens, and Marsha Louis. For Wondery. Hey, it's Guy Raz here, host of How I Built This, a podcast that gives you a front row seat to how some of the best known companies in the world were built.

In a new weekly series we've launched called Advice Line, I'm joined by some legendary founders and together we talk to entrepreneurs in every industry to help tackle their roadblocks in real time. Everybody buys on feeling, Guy, like everybody. So if you don't give them the feeling that they're looking for, they're not going to buy. A lot of times founders will go outside of themselves to build a story.

And you can't replicate heart. You know, I think we all have a little bit of imposter syndrome, which isn't the worst thing in the world because it doesn't allow you to get overconfident and think that you're invincible. Check out the advice line by following How I Built This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to How I Built This early and ad-free right now on Wondery+.