Chowchilla School Bus Kidnapping | One Survivor’s Story | 3
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From Wondery, I'm Mike Corey, and this is Against the Odds. Over the past two episodes, we've told the story of 26 elementary school children and their bus driver who were kidnapped on their way home from school in Chowchilla, California. The kidnappers then trapped them underground in a buried truck.

Through their own acts of bravery and perseverance, the driver and all 26 children escaped to safety. Later, police would arrest the three men responsible. For the survivors and their families, the abduction would leave an indelible mark on each of their lives. On today's show, we are joined by one of those survivors, Jennifer Brown Hyde. Jennifer was just nine years old when she and her brother Jeff were kidnapped.

Jennifer's here with us to share her story and tell us how the experience changed her life. Our conversation is coming up next. In our fast-paced, screen-filled world, it can be all too easy to lose that sense of imagination and wonder. If you're looking for new ways to ignite your creativity and open your mind to fresh perspectives, then let Audible be your guide. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, or any genre you love,

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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Jennifer Brown-Hyde, thank you so much for joining us here on Against the Odds. You're quite welcome. Thank you for having me.

The show is all about telling true stories, and it is special to be able to sit down and have conversations with people who were there, who lived them. And I know these experiences can cause trauma in people's lives, and no doubt it's been similar for you. But I'd like to start off with asking you, how was your life before the kidnapping? What was your childhood like? Oh, I grew up in a very small town. Chowchilla is...

was at the time in 76, what I call small town USA. Everybody knew everybody. Nobody locked their doors. I had a very all-American, carefree life. My parents both were employed and worked outside the home.

And my brother and I, every summer, got the honor and the privilege to go to summer school, not because we needed to make up schoolwork. It was more of a recreational program where we got to do arts and crafts and go on field trips and spend the summer with our friends. And one of those field trips was to the local pool, right? Yes.

And that was the day, July 15th, 1976, where you and your brother, Jeff, you were nine, he was 10. You were coming back from the pool that day? We had gone to the swimming pool. That was our swim day. And so I had on my pink velour bikini with fish on it. And we had actually finished the afternoon at the swimming pool. We had come back to the school to pick up the other students to take our bus route home.

However, the bus had a bit of a bump on the way back, didn't it? When did you first notice that things were a little bit off that day? Because of my location physically in the bus, I was in the very back of the bus. I didn't really see a lot through the front windows because I was small and could barely see over the back of the bus seats. I literally did not see the white van parked in the road.

And I didn't really notice that anything was wrong until Edward got up from his seat and there was a masked man with a gun instructing him to walk down the aisle. And Edward is Ed Ray, the bus driver. That is correct. That's Edward. And for him to get up out of his seat...

I knew that something was really wrong because he would never have gotten up from the seat to even come back and reprimand us children. He would just holler at us down the aisle of the bus. So to see him vacating his seat and actually coming into, and he actually sat across from me in the very back row of the bus.

And at that point, I knew that there was something wrong. I have one memory of being on a school bus where the bus driver came, left his seat and came back into the bus. And it shocked everybody because a bus driver never does that unless something was really wrong. And I think one of the kids, there was a problem with one of the kids in the bus. But that memory is, I can imagine, very, very poignant. So what happened next for you there? I actually remember looking down the aisle of the bus for my brother.

to get some sort of guide as far as how serious was this situation and where was he in case I needed him.

And he actually, when the kidnappers stepped onto the bus and they pointed the gun down the aisle, he jumped up from his seat and stuck his hands up and said, we didn't do it. We didn't do it because he thought it was a joke. And a few other kids on the bus thought, you know, Edward's trying to pull one over on us and he's got his friends here to scare us because we'd been misbehaving.

And so once I saw him sit down and he turned around and looked at me and the look on his face, I knew that it was serious.

Yeah. And these things in your head would only happen in movies, right? This is this is Chowchilla. It's not exactly a place where you experience things like this. As a child, you would never experience anything like this. I remember my mom made a statement afterwards to a reporter that said, we live in Chowchilla where nothing ever happens. And how am I going to explain this to my kids?

that we now need to lock our doors and we need to be fearful of strangers. Whereas all the years that we had lived there, I had never had any fear. We didn't have crime.

There just weren't things like this that happened in our area. And the 26 kids on the bus were then led off of it and then separated into two vans. Were you able to stay with your brother, Jeff? Actually, no, I didn't. The first van that pulled up, half of the kids were made to jump into that van. And my brother was in that first group of children. For me,

And the other half of the children, we were actually put into the second van. And so I was separated from my brother. Luckily for me, I had Edward with me. So I had an adult that I felt very comfortable and safe with.

But that must have been very tough for you because just when you were explaining it a few moments ago, you said that when someone came on the bus with a gun, the first thing you did was look at your brother. So obviously you two were quite close. We were very close. For me, that's like I lost a part of me. A part of me got into the first van and was gone.

And so in my mind, I thought not only was I worried for my safety, but I was worried for him because I didn't know what they were going to do to his van. I didn't know what they were going to do to our van. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so they threw all you guys into two vans and they drove around for 11, 12 hours, twists and turns to try to confuse everybody. Were they saying anything to you? Did you have any idea what was happening? The only thing they really said to us was after I had been yelling at them for an hour. What were you saying? Well, as a child, I was very vocal and very outgoing. And so I wasn't happy with the situation. So I...

I told them that they were messing with the wrong kids and that as soon as my dad got a hold of them, they were going to be sorry for what they did. And they just better watch out. They're going to have all these parents after them and they needed to let us go. I just went on and on and on. And they pounded on the plywood that separated them from us and just kept telling me to shut up.

And so eventually the other children persuaded me that I needed to be quiet before we got ourselves into trouble. And so that was about the only time I ever remember them speaking to us. I do remember I could hear through the plywood as we drove on for a few hours, they would pop the top of a soda can.

So I could hear them getting something to drink while we were in horrific conditions with no restrooms, no water, no food. I do remember when they stopped for gas. You could smell the gasoline. It was dark back there? It was pitch dark. It was a panel van that had no windows. There was small cracks from the door, but those were even sealed so well that it was pitch dark.

I'm just trying to picture it all myself. Obviously, 11, 12 hours in that van, only being able to hear, again, a pop can or the smell of gasoline, that would be horrifying. Even after all these years, the sounds and the smells are a lot of the things that are triggers for me. If I go into a dark building,

that has a musty odor. We have some really old buildings where I work. And if I go into the basement of one of those dark buildings that has low ceilings, it can be very uncomfortable. And the smell of gasoline, things that people don't think about can actually be just common day-to-day things that you have to deal with at home or at work. After 11 hours in the back of the van, you stop and you're literally forced underground. You

You were nine at the time, but did you have any idea what was happening or what did you think was happening? I had absolutely no idea when we stopped and the kidnappers opened the back doors to the van. There were really bright lights like you would see on a job site, like construction lights on poles. And

And so all of a sudden to be thrown from pitch dark into bright lights, it was unimaginable. And the kidnappers reached in and grabbed one of the kids, pulled them out and shut the door. Just one. Just one. So this went one at a time. Every child pulled out of the van and we tried to listen to hear what they were asking him. And they were asking him their name and their age.

And as they were doing this, I scooted further and further to the back of the area that we were in.

So that maybe if I just scooted far enough, they would just forget I was in there and they'd just let me stay and go on with what they were doing. What else could you do? Yeah. And I was afraid at that point because I had been the one that had yelled at them nonstop for a good hour. And I thought, oh my God, when I get out and tell them my name, they're going to recognize my voice. I mean, at that point I was paranoid because I didn't know what they were going to do.

And also I was fearful what was happening. Where were the kids that they had pulled out one by one? And when I got out and it was such a bright light, that was the first time that I had stood up in all those hours. So I was somewhat shaky and weak.

And I thought, okay, well, I have no idea where we're at. And at that point, I was then fearful. What are they going to do to me? I hadn't heard any gunshots, so I didn't think they were going to shoot me. But where were they taking everybody and what were they going to do with this? And then my fear was what had happened to my brother? Where was he? So they asked me my name, my age, and I had grabbed a shirt that

that one of the kids had left in the van because I literally was in a little pink bikini. So I grabbed a shirt to cover myself and so they took it from me. So then I was back to being a scared, dirty, terrified little kid. Then they pointed to the ground and there was a ladder sticking up and they said, you need to climb down there.

And I had no idea where we were or why I was climbing where I was climbing. It was just, you know, I had no choice but to do what they asked me to do. Were you thinking you might not see your parents again? Do you, I wonder if you even at that age, do you understand that this could be the end? It's a lot to process at that age, isn't it? At that point, I had not had those thoughts.

Now, I will tell you that later when we were down in the hole and the roof started to collapse and we were out of food and water, I had gotten to that point. But when we first got into the hole, I was not to that point that I even comprehended ransom, kidnapping or any of the other things that came to follow after we were in there for many hours.

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What can you tell us about Ed Ray, Edward? Because he was the only adult that was down there with you. Was he someone you were close to growing up? I had Edward as my bus driver every summer. So I saw Edward every day in the morning and the afternoon for school to go to summer school. What kind of man was he? A very hardworking man. He actually had a farm.

And he would work the farm and then come drive the bus and then go back during the day and work the farm and then come back and drive the bus in the afternoon. We all loved Edward and had a lot of respect for Edward. And we liked to joke around with Edward. So I knew him in that regard. When you're all down in the buried bus...

First of all, was there any light down there or was it pitch black? They had given Edward a flashlight. That's right. So when the flashlight was on, there was that. And then besides that, dark. Pitch dark. Yeah. Just a duplication of the van we were in, just a bigger area. They had makeshift toilets that they had cut in the wheel wells. So we had somewhat bathroom facilities, food and water, and we had room that we could stand up and walk. How were the kids coping with being underground?

It was somewhat, for me, a relief to be able to stand up and move around. And we were all together. And everyone in the world who's heard this story knows why you were kidnapped, because this was a kidnapping, right? But for you, the 26 people that were on the bus, you had no idea why you were underground. Correct. And as a child, the word kidnapping...

Never came into my mind. Ransom. I never even thought I had absolutely no idea. I couldn't think about why they were doing this because I was just trying to survive what they were doing to us.

It wasn't until much later that I comprehended what they had done. It would have been terrifying just not knowing anything, not knowing why, not knowing how you were going to escape, not knowing even where you were. There was just so many question marks. I can't even imagine. Once we got into the hole, it never entered my mind that I was actually going to ever go home. So I had started praying.

And I had told God that if he got me out of there, I would do my chores. I would go to church. I would not fight with my brother. I would do everything that my parents asked me to do. So at that point, I never thought I was going home. I never thought that I was going to get to see my parents again. I literally at that point started to prepare myself to die. And

In my mind was trying to figure out who was going to take care of my animals at home, who was going to feed the dogs. You know, what was my mom going to do with my clothes? How was my friends at school going to, you know, handle the fact that I wouldn't be there the next year? I literally prepared myself to die. And that was until Michael Marshall and Edwards stacked the mattresses up and began to push on the hatch. And you guys had to crawl out from underground.

Can you talk us through that process a little bit? How was that experience for you? So after many hours of the heat,

And lack of food. We'd eaten all the food, drank the water. The makeshift fans that the kidnappers had put in place, the motors had stopped. Which means that you would have died under there. So after all that, everybody tried to rest and sleep. One of the kids had a nightmare and kicked one of the beams that was holding the ceiling up. And so the roof started to cave in.

There was a lot of dust and dirt that was flying through the air. So then it was really hard to breathe. And in that desperation, Mike and Robert Gonzalez and Edward and a few of the other older kids had thought, if we've been down here this long and they have not come back for us, we're either going to die in here or we're going to die trying to get out. So

They came up with a plan to stack up the mattresses so that they could get to the top where the hole in the van was. I wasn't a part of any of that because I was too small and of no help to anybody. So I just kind of comforted some of the younger kids and just kind of stayed out of the way and tried to rest and sleep.

And I can remember it went on for hours and they would work for a while and then stop and try to listen to see if they heard any noise. And then they'd work for a few more hours. It was not quick and easy at all whatsoever. And so after many, many, many, many hours, I do remember the exact moment that Mike pushed the metal plate aside and sun set.

just came pouring into the opening and it came from above and it just looked like a ray of light, like from heaven. I mean, it was just like, wow, there was this huge light. And after being in the dark for so many hours, it was so bright.

And then I remember we sat and we just paused because we thought, oh, my God, what if they have been up there letting us get this far? Right. And now they're going to kill us. And we just kind of sat there and paused like, oh, my God, are they going to kill Mike?

And so as he popped up out of there and said, there's nobody here, then we just one by one, there was no thought process to it. It was just, let's get out of here. And he would pick us up. Edward would hand one of the kids up to Mike and we just one by one were like plucked out of that hell hole. And I can remember coming up to the top. And then I remember thinking,

oh my God, are we still in the same place that we started? Because it looked very similar. But really it was a hundred miles away, right? Yeah. It was nowhere near Chochula for sure at all. And then I can remember we could hear heavy equipment coming

And so we thought, there's people out there. And so do we need to hide? Do we need to be fearful? Do we need to be afraid? I mean, 26 kids and poor Edward, we're just moving targets. And when did it dawn on you that you were actually safe? It wasn't until hours after that. We walked around a clump of bushes. And I remember there were people there, construction workers. They had hard hats and

Edward said something to the effect of, you know, we're lost. We're from Chowchilla. And we were a mess to look at us. My hair was so matted. It was just dirt all over my body. My feet were filthy. And these men looked at us like they had seen aliens. And they were like, you've been on the news. They're looking for you.

And I remember one of them brought over their lunchbox and they opened it up and they were handing out sandwiches and like chips. And they had a soda machine and they broke into the soda machine with a crowbar and just started pulling out sodas. And I thought, well, this is great because I didn't get soda ever at home. So this was awesome. And they had called the police.

So there was a SWAT team and helicopters and police car. I mean, it was just crazy. And then they actually put us on a prison bus and they drove us away. They took us to Santa Rita Rehabilitation Center, which was a minimum security prison facility. They gave us apples and water and crayons. And we got to color and they gave us some coveralls to put on to cover ourselves up.

And my front teeth were missing and I couldn't even eat the apple. So one of the nurses took his surgical scissors and cut the apple into pieces for me so that I could eat. So it was a positive environment. But at that point, I still didn't feel safe. I still didn't feel that I was going to make it back home. A part of me hoped that I would.

But I still didn't feel safe yet. Do you remember the moment you saw your parents? Yeah. So after we left Santa Rita, they put us on a Greyhound bus for the trip home. It was dark. I actually had nightmares and woke up screaming. And I remember when we got to Chachula, there were bright lights outside from reporters that had cameras set up. And I can remember getting off the bus and there were so many people there.

And they kind of walked us through an aisle that was cleared for us. And I can remember my mom grabbing me and took me into the police station and said, your dad's going to get Jeff and we're going to go home. And I remember the first thing my dad said to me after he hugged me was, did they touch you? And I couldn't comprehend. I had no idea what he was talking about. And I'm like, no, dad, they didn't touch me. And he said, okay, let's go home.

And so at that point, I felt that because I was with my parents and I was with my brother, I finally felt some peace, but I did not feel safe. I still didn't know who was out there and were they going to come for us? Were they going to get us on the way home? Were they going to, you know, get my mom's station wagon and kidnap us again? Do you think your brother felt the same way? Were you speaking to him on the way?

Oh, I'm sure that he was paranoid too. Did you ever speak about it as children years after? We talked about it all the time. When we got up from a nap that day that we got home, my mom got a tape recorder out and I actually have a cassette tape of me telling the story from start to finish, like within a few hours of being home.

And my brother actually started writing and he started writing details and things that he remembered. And so those two things came in handy because my brother and I helped the police do composite drawings of the kidnappers when they were still at large. So, yeah, we talked about it nonstop. We had reporters at our house constantly.

Once somebody found out that our family was willing to talk about it, we were like the go-to people. And my parents felt that it would benefit us to talk about it.

Every year when there was the anniversary for the kidnapping or, you know, as the case progressed, reporters were calling my mom and we're at our house and she would always ask us, hey, so-and-so wants to talk. And we're like, sure, bring it on. And so my parents never prevented us from speaking. From what I've heard, though, in the sleepy town of Chowchilla, speaking about it wasn't really something that people did.

No, they didn't. It was pretty much just the times as far as trauma and, you know, child trauma. A lot of people just they just didn't talk about it. They didn't really offer us any mental health counseling. There wasn't, you know, a lot that was offered to us at the time. Whereas if this happened today.

That would be the first responders right along with them would be mental health. Right. Therapists talking. That's correct. We know sweeping it under the rug doesn't really fix it, nor does, you know, taking all the kids to Disney World. It's a great gesture, but it doesn't a positive doesn't erase a negative in this case. Yeah, that's correct. And I think a lot of families just dealt with it the way they knew how to deal with it. A lot of families moved away. They didn't ever talk about it again. They didn't want to be associated with it. They didn't want to talk about it.

And everybody handles things differently and in their own way. And I think that luckily for us, we were allowed to talk about it and allowed to get those feelings out.

allowed to show appreciation because still to this day, when people ask me about it, I'll answer questions and talk to anybody about it because there was a world that stopped. There was not just the United States. It was the whole world stopped and

and paused while we were missing. And the prayers and the thoughts, and we actually got letters that were just addressed to Jennifer Brown, Chachula, California. And somehow the postman got them to us. I feel a sense of, you know, people are entitled to my story and to know that I'm okay and that I appreciate those hours and the time that people put into helping find us

the judicial system in helping prosecute our kidnappers, the reporters, everybody, everybody that had anything to do with it. The journalism aspect of it as far as getting our story out and getting that message told because I think it's very impactful and I think people need to know that, you know, this is what we went through and this is how we have come out and this is how we are today. ♪

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What was the aftermath like for your family? The kidnapping was in July. And in September, I had to turn around and get right back on a school bus because that was how I got to school and got home every day. We lived in the country and my mom didn't get off work when we got out of school. So I rode a bus to school and home every day. And there was no question of come September was my brother and I going to get back on that bus. So things were just back to normal. The town was different.

I think there was a lot of apprehension from strangers and the town changed. A lot of the families changed, but I got back on a bus and went back to school. Judging from this conversation, I know you and Jeff were close, your brother, and that you looked up to him. I unfortunately saw that he passed away from a farming accident when he was 15, just a few years after the kidnapping. How did that affect you and your family?

Oh, he was by far my best friend and my only sibling. It was very difficult. It was a freak accident. He was at work with my dad. And to this day, I can still remember when a family friend knocked on our door to let me know that I needed to go to the hospital, that my brother was in an accident.

And I can remember the look on my parents' face like they were just lost. I knew at that moment that my life was never going to be the same. And I can remember thinking I was really angry. I was angry with God because how could he let my brother and I get through the kidnapping, which was a near-death experience?

And then took the only person that I literally adored and trusted in life. And how was I going to make it through? I was only 14. How was I going to make it through high school? And although the kidnapping, I thought, was life-changing, losing him, it was even more horrific. And my parents got divorced.

And my mom and I ended up ultimately moving away from Chachula so that I could try to live a normal teenage life. How did you deal with all of the emotional pressure and pain? I didn't deal with it too well. As a young adult and a teenager, I had really low self-esteem. I think the kidnapping made me feel that I had no self-worth. And I felt that if adults...

could take me and drive me around in the back of a van like a dog would be going to the dog pound or a cattle going to the slaughterhouse. I felt like I had no self-worth and I felt that I wasn't valuable to society. And so life was just a big blur for a long time. And it wasn't until I left California when I was in my mid-20s

to move away from an abusive husband. And I got to Florida and felt that for once in my life, I could breathe and I could start over. And that I felt at that point that I could live a life that I deserved and I could start off fresh. And so I started over basically in Florida with some family there and met my husband, started a family, had a child.

And then a few years later, had another child. And so I have two grown children that are the love of my life. My boys are everything to me. And I now have a new grandchild. I've been married for 26 years. So I'm able to say that no matter what I have gone through, I can say that I can and have endured much.

And I'm very thankful for the life that I have and feel very blessed to have the life that I have now. What do you think it was about you that allowed you to turn a corner? The part that my parents played in allowing me to speak about the kidnapping let me heal from that at an early age. And it was more...

trying to come to terms that the kidnappers were not personally targeting me, that they had targeted our school bus and wanted to hold us for ransom. But it wasn't me personally that they were after.

So once I came to terms with that, I was able to heal from some of the trauma. And it wasn't until later in life in my early 20s and when I went to therapy that I was able to recognize some of the triggers and recognize I am the way I am because of what I went through.

I think that's exactly it, Jennifer. If you don't speak about it, then you blow a gasket at some point. It's got to come out some way. And if you can speak about it through therapy, even just with friends, with loved ones, then I think these things can...

come out much more cathartically. And I think a lot of part of it too, is to realize that these things, these imperfections that we have, it's not that it's unexplained. Anybody in this sort of situation would have these sorts of things because of something so traumatic. And I believe understanding all of that, that yeah, it's imperfect, but it's me and it can be dealt with and understood and

I'm not broken. I'm just a human. I think that all comes with speaking and being open about it, opposed to closing it all off, right? I think it keeps my mind processing things. It keeps me dealing with even life. I mean, when I stop and think about the kidnapping and some of the childhood trauma, I'm

I stop and look at my life now and think, oh, that's a piece of cake. I got a project at work. I can do that. I need to help, you know, with my kids' school carnival. No problem. I can tackle that because everything that I've been through has made me the person that I am. Everything that I have endured has made me the person I am. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you still speak to any of the other survivors?

Yes. So there's a group of us that are ladies that have a group and we do group texts and we, you know, share things personally on Facebook with each other. But we also behind the scenes are there to support each other as far as, you know, things going on in our family. And there is a bond between us all.

That would be similar to a group of men that were in the military that fought together, that went to war together, that went to battle together. We have a closeness that's unexplainable. It's not like family. It's not like coworkers.

It's more of just a bond of survivors. And what about Edwards, Ed Ray, the bus driver? Were you able to keep in contact with him over the years? Luckily for me, I got to see Ed Ray and present him with a safety award about a year before he passed away. Oh, it's sad to hear that he passed. He seemed like a great guy. He was. He was.

He was a wonderful man that we all admired and looked up to. There are a few other characters in the story that were behind bars for a very long time. However, the kidnappers, after about 35, 36 years, they have been released. What are your thoughts on that? They were actually sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. And then that was overturned because the courts determined that we had no physical damage.

That there was no physical damage, no physical harm to us as survivors. And so they got released. And I cannot dwell on that for long because that was not something that I was happy with. And we'll just leave it at that. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.

There was a quote that I saw from the childhood you when a reporter asked you, I think just right after you were kidnapped and eventually escaped, that you said, they asked, why would anybody do this to you? And I believe you said that you think, you said, I don't know, but maybe they didn't have enough love. Is that true? I did say that. Yes, I did. I said, I felt that they had too many toys and not enough love. And I think as a child,

Once I learned who they were and where they came from, I had to rationalize what they did to me by thinking that they didn't grow up the way that I did. And that came straight from the heart at that time because that was how I felt. And I still, I honestly still feel that way now. So you mentioned you have two kids of your own, two sons, right? I would think that your parenting style is,

has been changed a little bit by the kidnapping. Is that true? I try not to project onto my children the trauma that I've been through.

For years, they had no idea about the kidnapping. They had to get on a school bus and go to school. And I didn't want them to be fearful. I didn't want them to be afraid. I mean, everybody has their education in school where they talk about stranger danger, don't talk to strangers. And my children could not comprehend why that.

I would go over that time and time again. They didn't understand why when they were in first grade and third grade, they had cell phones. It wasn't for their safety. It was for my peace of mind. And it allowed me to let them do things. It allowed me to let them get on the bus and go to school and come home. My children would always say that I was a helicopter parent, that I was always there. I

I always went on the field trips. I always volunteered in their classrooms. My oldest son went in the military. And so his comment was, mom, you're not a helicopter mom. You're a Blackhawk mom because you are so stealth and you are just so you're right there hovering.

that I know that you're there if I need you. But, you know, so we kind of made a joke about it. And I did when he went in the military. I was 110 percent an army mom. I'd love to know any other little things that you found yourself doing in your parenting that you think are a result of the kidnapping.

years ago when they were in elementary school and found out about it. And we watched Texas Ranger, and they did an episode that was based on the kidnapping, almost exactly the same thing. And my kids looked at me, and they were like, oh my God, Mom, that's your story. So yeah, my son, when he was in sixth grade, had to do a project on somebody famous.

And he did me. And people are like, your mom's not famous. And he's like, go Google her name. And you tell me that my mom is not famous. And they were like, oh, my God. Well, you can't deny it takes a special person to be able to go through something like that and

And still, from what I see, lead a happy life with two great kids, a loving husband and being able to speak about it. I like to let people know that you can go through some stuff in life and you can go on and have a productive career and raise children and be, you know, a contributing person in your community. Yeah. And if there was some sort of silver lining or something,

dare I say, gift that a dark experience like this could give you. It's just the ability to help other people go through similarly dark stuff, right? That's one of the reasons that

I talk about it. It helps me to heal. Also, I hope that along the way, somebody hears something and says, wow, you know, if that little girl can do that and grow up to be this, you know, I can deal with what I'm dealing with now and I can get through what I've got to get through, you know,

you know, to be where I want to be. I mean, I'm not going to say that my life has been perfect or ideal along the way. It's been hard and it's been a struggle, but I made that effort years ago.

to be somebody that I could be proud of and I could walk through life and be maybe an inspiration to one person or just somebody that people could say, I'm really proud of you. And that means a lot to me. Well, Jennifer, like I said in the beginning, it is so special to be able to tell a story and then speak to somebody who's...

witnessed it, who experienced it, and also to hear you speak about your journey, the lessons you've learned and the journey you've been on. So thank you so much for your time today. It was really great speaking to you. You're very welcome. And I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to share this. And I hope that it can show some, you know, shed some positivity out there in the world today.

This is the final episode of our series Chowchilla School Bus Kidnapping. Thank you to our guest Jennifer Brown-Hyde for sharing her story. If you'd like to learn more about this event, we highly recommend The Ballad of the Chowchilla Bus Kidnapping by Caleb Horton on Vox.com. On our next series, we're telling one of the most infamous survival stories of all time, the Donner Party.

It's an epic saga about the settling of the American West and facing one of the ultimate wilderness taboos, resort to cannibalism or starve. The Donner Party is a Wondery Plus exclusive. You can find Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

I'm your host, Mike Corey. This episode was produced by Peter Arcuni. Our audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Our series producers are Matt Almos and Emily Frost. Our managing producers are Tonja Thigpen and Matt Gant. Our senior producer is Andy Herman. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer-Beckman, Stephanie Jentz, and Marshall Louis for Wondery.

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