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It was a Christmas miracle. Ginny Irivando and Robert Long's 13-year-old son had been diagnosed with terminal brain cancer about eight months earlier in May 2017. The doctor had told Ginny that her son probably wouldn't live to see the new year.
But on December 28th, Ginny posted photos of her son on Facebook with the following text: "When the doctor told us that he didn't think he would be with us on Christmas, it crushed our hearts. All I can say is that everyone that told us that you can't always believe what the doctor says, well, that is true. There's only one person that knows when it's time to go, and that is God. Every day we have him with us, we thank God for letting us be his mommy and daddy one more day. Please keep the prayers coming. They are working."
According to Ginny Irivando-Long, the doctors had informed her that the unnamed minor had seven tumors in his brain and that surgery wasn't really an option because it would result in her son becoming a quote, vegetable. There was nothing they could do except make him as comfortable as possible until it was his time to go. And even though they claimed that the thoughts and prayers seemed to be working for once, Ginny knew that her son's time was coming sooner rather than later.
To help offset the medical expenses, the boy's parents had organized a fundraiser selling t-shirts at the middle school he attended in Chalamar, Florida. To raise additional money, his mother Ginny launched a GoFundMe campaign so people could donate online. For those of you that live in civilized countries with universal healthcare, GoFundMe is a crowdfunding website that is commonly used to raise funds to help others overcome hardships such as urgent medical treatments and emergency surgeries.
In other cases, the website is used to help achieve aspirational goals like sending little Billy to camp. Unfortunately, in this case, Jenny's campaign was asking for help in sending her son to the big camp in the sky. She was preparing for the inevitable. Jenny had titled the fundraiser, "Funeral Expenses." Meanwhile, the boy with brain cancer was still attending school, still playing dodgeball, still turning in his homework.
He did not look or act like a boy that was dying, but it was obvious to the staff that something was weighing heavily on his mind. In fact, a month before that Christmas Facebook post by Jenny Iribando Long, a school resource officer had contacted the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office with worries that the boy was being exploited by his parents. An investigator interviewed the 13-year-old at his school and asked about the diagnosis. The boy said that his mother had told him that he was dying from brain cancer, and he said that he didn't really like to talk about it.
He, quote, put his head down and stated it did make him scared sometimes. His mother, Jenny, told authorities that she had received the bad news on May 19th, 2017 from a doctor at Houston Children's Hospital. But when she was asked to provide documentation that proved the diagnosis, Jenny said that at that moment she did not have time to locate that documentation, but she promised that she would deliver it later.
Weeks passed without the documents, but the investigation continued. The sheriff's office contacted Dr. Paul Tartarilla, the boys' general practitioner in Florida, who claimed to have no record of that patient having any sort of brain cancer. When the investigator confronted Jenny with that discovery, she retracted her statement and said that it was actually a doctor in Miami who had diagnosed her son. But again, she was unable to provide any proof, and she never did, because the diagnosis was fictional.
Ginny Irivando-Long, with the help of her husband Robert, concocted the story to generate funds from a sympathetic and generous public. The couple had sold nine t-shirts for a total of $140, and they collected a little less than $1,000 in donations with the GoFundMe campaign. For less than $1,200 over a span of eight months, Ginny Irivando-Long convinced her 13-year-old son that he had brain cancer and that he was dying.
When the truth was revealed, parents like Janet Cooper, who had actually lost the child to the disease, were absolutely disgusted. There is no jail, no prison system in our society that will do to them what they would have endured if their son truly did have brain cancer. Probably not, but they were going to jail anyway. Both Jenny Irivando and Robert Long were arrested on February 1st, 2018.
They were charged with one count of child abuse and nine counts of fraud, one for every t-shirt sold. While the court proceedings played out, the 13-year-old boy and his older brother were taken into foster care by the Department of Children and Families. In June 2019, Ginny Irivondo pleaded no contest and was sentenced to 26 months in prison. The charges against Robert Long were dropped for unknown reasons. Maybe he had been duped by his wife too.
GoFundMe responded to the incident by banning the couple from using the website and refunding the donations. The company released a statement to the Washington Post assuring donors that instances of fraud on the website are rare. With that said, there are instances where individuals fabricated a diagnosis and committed fraud. As rare as the company claims frauds may be,
For scammers, GoFundMe and other online fundraising services have proven to be a money tree ripe for the picking. There are countless examples of people using the services deceptively for their own monetary gain, but none are more notorious than the story involving a couple named Kate McClure and Mark D'Amico who helped a homeless veteran named Johnny Bobbitt Jr.,
A simple act of kindness leads to a viral fundraiser, which would ultimately reveal some of the ugliest aspects of humanity on this episode of Swindled.
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He walked up and he said, "Get back in the car. Lock the doors. I'll be back." Late one night in October 2017, Kate McClure took a gamble and lost. Kate knew that her vehicle was running on fumes but thought she could squeeze out a few more miles until she happened upon the next gas station. But as she was exiting I-95 in Philadelphia, her car sputtered and choked and came to a complete stop near an underpass in Fishtown.
It was 11pm and the 27 year old woman was stranded and alone. Kate pulled out her phone to call her boyfriend, 38 year old Mark D'Amico. Mark said he would come get her but it might take a while. He was at home in Florence Township, New Jersey, about 30 miles away. Kate didn't want to wait that long so she got out of her car and began walking towards the nearest fueling station a few blocks away. That's when she noticed a shadowy figure emerge from the darkness under the bridge. It was a man.
Tall, skinny, heavily bearded, and obviously homeless. And he was walking directly towards her. Great, Kate thought to herself. Just what she needed. Another junkie looking for a fix while she was in need of her own. As the man approached Kate, he called out to her and said that he had seen what had happened and told her that maybe he could help. He instructed Kate to get back into her car and lock the doors and that he would return in a few minutes. Kate was apprehensive at first. She had never met this person before and had no reason to trust him.
but at the time, what other choice did she have? Sure enough, moments later, that same man reappeared with a red gas canister in hand, placed the nozzle into the empty tank and began to dispense the fuel. Kate was delighted. She couldn't believe that she had been rescued by some random homeless man. As Kate would learn later, that random homeless man was named Johnny Bobbitt Jr. and he had just spent his last $20 to help a stranger in need. Kate wanted to compensate Johnny for his help at the time but she had no cash on hand.
Instead, Kate McClure made a promise to Johnny Bobbitt Jr. that she would return the favor someday soon. Back at home, Kate described the events to her boyfriend Mark. The couple decided to track Johnny down a few days later to show their gratitude. They found him in the same spot near the underpass where Kate had run out of gas. Johnny was holding a sign and panhandling on the corner. They gave him snacks and cash and some of Mark's old winter clothes. They bought him new socks and toiletries, and they even returned with gift cards to Johnny's favorite convenience store.
Each time the couple visited, they learned a little more about Johnny Bobbitt Jr. They learned that he was 34 years old, born and raised in North Carolina. Johnny told them about how he had been an ammunition technician for the United States Marine Corps, but had never been deployed. After his discharge, he returned home and became a firefighter and a paramedic, but eventually lost his job and everything else when he became addicted to heroin. Johnny described to Caden Mark how everything he loved was gone.
his boat, his home, the love of his life. He had chosen heroin over all of it. Johnny said he cleaned up for a while and wanted a fresh start so he moved to Philadelphia where he thought he had a job waiting for him. But when that fell through, he found himself back on the streets and back on the dope in the city of brotherly love. Kate and Mark were moved by Johnny's story. They found his old Facebook profile and saw photos of the not-so-distant past that depicted a healthier and happier Johnny doing the things he loved.
The couple was shocked to see just how fast it had all fallen apart. When you started to really see the person inside of Johnny, like it was, you were just blown away. Like he was such a normal, nice, caring guy. He was generous. But this normal, nice, caring guy who's generous was homeless with no help in sight. Kate and Mark decided that they needed to do more.
On November 10th, 2017, Kate McClure and Mark D'Amico launched a GoFundMe campaign to help Johnny Bobbitt Jr. get back on his feet. They titled the fundraiser "Paying It Forward" and set a goal of $10,000. In the story section of the campaign website, Kate wrote about how Johnny had helped her when she ran out of gas and how he had shared the gifts the couple had given him with other members of the homeless community. Kate said she felt compelled to help Johnny because she had gotten a glimpse of his "good heart."
and she shared her intentions for the money that she hoped to raise. "I would like to get him first and last month's rent at an apartment, a reliable vehicle, and four to six months' worth of expenses. He is very interested in finding a job, and I believe that with a place to be able to clean up every night and get a good night's rest, his life can get back to being normal. Truly believe that all Johnny needs is one little break. Hopefully, with your help, I can be the one to give it to him. Please help this man get into a home.
it is already getting so cold in philadelphia and i can't imagine what it will be like out there all winter any little bit will help slowly but surely the donations trickled in in three days the campaign had raised 769 and caught the attention of the local newspaper it's unbelievable it's crazy how many people have have seen it and shared it we were so excited when it hit 200 um
Because, you know, we could get him into a hotel for Thanksgiving and then get him into a hotel for Christmas. On November 15th, 2017, the Burlington County Times published an article about the fundraiser and included Johnny's history. The story spread quickly and the amount of donations to the campaign doubled within a day. At this point, Johnny Bobbitt had not been made aware that the fundraiser existed, but Kate and Mark met up with him later that night to share the good news.
I don't know where it's going to go.
Or like what's going to happen. It's the point, my honey. But as of right now, as of right now, we have that much. That changes my life right there. $1,764. That changes my life. The $769 changes my life. But what we're going to do, man, is we're going to try to set you up. Oh, this is amazing. And that's if it stops. I'm going to sleep. And that's if it stops right now.
Mark was correct. The fundraiser did keep going. By Thanksgiving Day, about two weeks after the campaign was launched, more than $200,000 had been donated. Johnny was able to purchase contact lenses and a new computer, and he spent the holiday in a hotel room.
Three days later, the total amount donated to Johnny's GoFundMe had almost doubled to $370,000. The life-changing and heartwarming story had become international news. Johnny and Kate were interviewed on Good Morning America, BBC Radio, and other mainstream networks, as well as countless local outlets.
The story had officially gone viral. On December 8th, 2017, Kate, Johnny, and Mark decided to stop accepting donations. The GoFundMe campaign had already exceeded its $10,000 goal by more than 4,000%. In total, over $400,000 was raised by more than 14,000 donors. After fees, Johnny would take home more than $360,000.
In the following weeks, Kate McClure continued to update the GoFundMe page with details about how the money would be used. She said the first thing on the list was to buy a new home for Johnny, followed by the purchase of his dream pickup truck, a 1999 Ford Ranger. Kate also stated that there would be two trusts set up in Johnny's name, one that would enable him to collect a small salary every year and another managed by a financial planner for retirement purposes.
There would also be a checking account that Johnny could use for his daily spending until he found a steady job. Finally, Kate said that Johnny would donate the remaining funds to organizations and individuals that had helped him during his 18 months of homelessness. Johnny Bobbitt himself updated the GoFundMe page to express his gratitude. He shared that he was still struggling with his addiction but was happy to report that he was currently 30 days clean and sober and starting to feel like his old self again.
Johnny also announced that he had purchased a new home, but not of the traditional type. Johnny had bought an RV for $18,000, which he parked on the property where Kate and Mark lived. He told the couple that it was his dream to eventually move to Alaska with the trailer and live off the land. But until that day arrived, Johnny would park himself next to the people that he trusted the most. Support for Swindled comes from Rocket Money.
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August 2018, nine months after the viral GoFundMe campaign and the $300,000 plus, Johnny Bobbitt Jr. was living under an overpass in Philadelphia with nothing but his addiction and a bone to pick. His life had fallen apart, again, but this time he had more than just himself to blame.
Johnny contacted the media and told them that he had a story to tell about how Kate McClure and Mark D'Amico, the couple who were supposed to help him turn his life around, had actually withheld most of the money that was raised. Bobbitt claimed that he was only given $75,000 of the $340,000 that was meant for him. In an interview with 6 ABC Action News in Philadelphia, Johnny alleged that the couple had been too controlling. I wish, you know, I hate that it came to that. I didn't want to be...
But DiAmico and McClure weren't joking. The couple admitted publicly that they were withholding funds from Johnny because he couldn't stay clean. DiAmico told the Philadelphia Inquirer that he would rather burn the money in front of Johnny than enable his addiction.
D'Amico said that giving money to a drug addict was akin to quote, "giving him a loaded gun." Johnny Bobbitt thought that was a rich statement coming from someone that had self-control issues of their own. He is a self-described gambling addict. I think it's pretty hypocritical for you to tell me I can't manage my money because I might spend it on drugs.
Mark D'Amico admitted that he had borrowed $500 from Johnny at a casino one time with his consent, but immediately paid him back. Johnny, on the other hand, according to Mark D'Amico, had blown $25,000 on smack in less than two weeks. According to D'Amico, their issues were hardly comparable. Kate and Mark denied Johnny's allegations that they were mishandling his money, but the public had already turned on the couple.
So they went on Megyn Kelly's new talk show on NBC to set the record straight. Maybe Kate and Mark thought that Megyn Kelly could help them understand why Johnny would just go on TV and lie, since Megyn Kelly, formerly of Fox News, knew what it was like to just go on TV and lie. It's so hard to deal with because these people are getting one side of the story and receiving death threats and, you know,
Johnny had also accused Kate and Mark of buying a new car for themselves with money that was rightfully his, and he was worried that they may have already spent the rest.
According to DiAmico, that new car was a used BMW with 60,000 miles on it, and the couple had purchased it with their own money. Other than that $500, have you spent $1 of that $400,000 on yourselves? No. Nothing? No. You're representing that right here and right now. There's never going to be any proof that you did. No. Of the $340,000, Kate and Mark claimed as much as $150,000 still remained.
They told Megyn Kelly that they were finally in the process of opening a trust so that they would no longer have to manage the funds themselves. They claimed to have no issue letting a forensic accountant examine the expenses. But Johnny Bobbitt Jr. wasn't happy with Kate and Mark's TV promises. On August 28th, 2018, a law firm working pro bono on Bobbitt's behalf filed a civil complaint in Burlington County Superior Court that sought an injunction and monetary relief in regards to the remaining funds.
On August 30th, a lawyer representing Kate McClure and Mark D'Amico repeated what the couple had told Megyn Kelly. Mr. Bobbitt received in cash as well as goods and services that were paid for out of this money of over $200,000. They have said they will have a forensic accountant. They have said they're fine with the trustee. They have said they'll open up the books. What more can they do? I would urge anybody to withhold judgment.
Burlington County Superior Court Judge Paula T. Dow accepted the couple's offer. She ordered that all remaining funds be transferred into an escrow account within 24 hours. She gave them 10 days to hire a forensic accountant to review the financial records. But that 24-hour deadline passed and none of the remaining money had been returned to Johnny Bobbitt Jr. That's because there was no remaining money.
On a conference call between the two parties' lawyers, it was revealed that every last dollar had been spent. In early September 2018, Mark D'Amico sent Johnny Bobbitt Jr. a Facebook message that read, quote,
Despite their public statements, Mark D'Amico and Kate McClure were panicking behind the scenes. The walls were closing in because they had not been entirely honest about what had happened to Johnny's money. They went on national television and stated that they hadn't spent a dime, but that wasn't true.
The truth was that they had blown most of Johnny's money on themselves. The couple had spent New Year's Eve in Las Vegas. Kate went to Disneyland in January and Disney World in July. There were the shopping sprees in New York, the helicopter rides and Broadway shows. They paid off family members' debts, and there was evidence of all of these expenditures posted to Facebook. Not too shabby of a lifestyle for a state of New Jersey secretary and an unmotivated, self-employed carpenter.
Also, Johnny was right about the BMW. It was purchased with his money, and the RV that was purchased for him, well, that was registered in Kate McClure's name. But most egregious were the gambling expenditures. In total, D'Amico and McClure had spent over $85,000 at or near casinos in Philadelphia, Vegas, and Atlantic City. The couple was panicking because everybody was about to find out.
Judge Dow ordered Kate and Mark to testify under oath about what happened to the cash, but they invoked their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. So the judge put the civil case on hold, and a criminal investigation took its place. The writing was on the wall, and Kate McClure began making moves to save her own ass. She began secretly recording her interactions with her boyfriend Mark D'Amico in hopes that he would incriminate himself and to capture his abusive behavior towards her.
You fucking did this. You fucking did this. Everything. You started the whole fucking thing. You did everything for me.
I had no part in any of this and I'm the one fucking taking the fall. My name is on that fucking shit. Because of you, because of me listening to you. I might be going to jail because of something that you said. Stop what? You don't go to jail for lying on TV, you dumb bitch.
You heard what he said. If this turns into a criminal thing... You don't go to jail for lying on TV. But who made me lie on TV? Who cares? What do you mean, who cares? I care. Who fucking learned all this shit on GoFundMe? I blame you, then. I am blaming you. Will you stop? You're blaming me? You're blaming me? You're blaming me? You're blaming me?
I'm fucking bitch, you're blaming me? 'Cause a junkie decided to start fucking bullshit? That's what you're falling for? You weak fucking bitch! You hear yourself? You're blaming me? You're gonna let that fucking junkie come between us? You fucking weak slob! Look at yourself! Look at yourself! Grow a fucking pair of balls! You fucking pussy! You fucking despicable fucking pussy!
You weak slug! That's what you're gonna do? Then fucking have fun by yourself. Dumb fucking bitch. You dumb, dumb fucking bitch. You fucking just sit there and you believe all the bullshit and you fucking let your mind eat at you and you're gonna fucking lose everything. Because of it. You're so fucking stupid that you have the fucking balls to say that to me. You're fucking so dumb and fucking weak. It's pathetic.
Yeah, but how many times have I said, like, can we watch it? Like, can you watch it? Stop. Like, let's stop. Stop. Stop. Stop what? The money. Stop what? You bought Disney tickets when we had nothing left. That was at the very end. Okay, it was at the very end. When we had nothing left. You didn't need Disney tickets. I could pay back $1,000. That's not an issue. $5,000.
On Disney tickets? Go. I'm not acting like that.
On September 6th, 2018, a search warrant was executed at Kate McClure and Mark D'Amico's home in Florence Township, New Jersey. Authorities left with boxes of documents and a dozen bags of evidence. They used BMW, left on the back of a tow truck.
McClure shielded her face from the cameras as she fled the residence in her car, while D'Amico stayed behind and nonchalantly swung at golf balls in the yard. Investigators had also gained access to the couple's phone records, which didn't leave much to the imagination. The whole story played out in the form of 67,000 text messages on November 10, 2017, less than half an hour after the GoFundMe campaign was launched.
A friend of Kate McClure's asked her why she had never been told the story about how she had run out of gas on the I-95. Kate replied quote, "Okay, so wait. The gas part is completely made up. But the guy isn't. I had to make something up to make people feel bad. That's right. Kate McClure had never run out of gas. Johnny Bobbitt wasn't her knight in shining cardboard." The couple had actually befriended the homeless man over a month earlier near the Sugar House Casino where they lagged a gamble.
Kate and Mark came up with a plan to generate cash using GoFundMe, and they pitched it to Johnny Bobbitt Jr., who was fully complicit. In retrospect, it's kind of obvious what kind of addict would give away their last $20. And interestingly enough, it was discovered that the gas story wasn't the first time Johnny Bobbitt had advertised a good deed for attention. In 2012, while he was still living in North Carolina, Bobbitt posted a story on Facebook about how he had spent his dinner money to help out a stranger in need.
But that story only earned him a few likes instead of a quarter million dollars. Needless to say, the plan was far from foolproof. Even the people closest to the couple could see right through it. Four days after the campaign was launched, Kate McClure's own mother warned her that people go to jail all the time for scamming others out of money. And Kate's best friend, after learning the truth, texted, quote, This gas story is going to backfire. LMFAO.
By March, less than five months after raising the $340,000, the couple's bank account was already running on empty. In a text to Mark, Kate wrote, "I can't believe we have less than 10K left. I'm so upset now." D'Amico told her not to worry because of the book deal that was pending. He told her that the money they would earn from publishing their story would quote, "dwarf" the money they had raised using GoFundMe.
Less than a week later, the remaining $10,000 had been spent, and the checking account was overdrafted. The financial stress compiled in the following months, and so did the tension in Mark and Kate's relationship. The couple bickered about selling the BMW and the RV. Kate suggested to Mark that he should start working at his real job again. It had been over six months since Mark had last swung a hammer. Instead, Mark ignored the suggestion and logged into his online poker account.
When Johnny Bobbitt Jr. went public with the allegation that the couple was spending his money, the couple worried that the entire story was about to fall apart, so they contacted him directly to try and work out a deal. Bobbitt tried to ease their fears, writing back, quote, I have not said anything that would jeopardize us. But at the time, Johnny Bobbitt Jr. was not aware that all of the funds were gone, and he did not anticipate that his civil lawsuit would lead to a criminal investigation.
a criminal investigation that would ultimately incriminate himself. The truth about the gas story probably would have never been discovered if the three conspirators hadn't fought over the money. When asked if Bobbitt realized that the lawsuit would expose the truth about his involvement, Burlington County Prosecutor Scott Cofina replied, "I can't speculate what is in Johnny Bobbitt's mind. This certainly appears to have been a miscalculation on his part, in hindsight."
On November 15th, 2018, Kate McClure, Mark D'Amico, and Johnny Bobbitt Jr. were arrested and charged with theft by deception and conspiracy to commit theft by deception. The paying it forward story that drove this fundraiser might seem too good to be true. Unfortunately, it was. The entire campaign was predicated on a lie. She did not run out of gas on an I-95 off-ramp, and he did not spend his last $20 to help her.
Rather, D'Amico, McClure and Bobbitt conspired to pass off a fake, feel-good story that would compel donors to contribute to their cause. And it worked, in a very big way, but it was fictitious and illegal and there are consequences. My office has charged Mark D'Amico, Caitlin McClure and Johnny Bobbitt Jr. with second-degree theft by deception and conspiracy to commit theft by deception.
Kate McClure's attorney, James Giroux, immediately went on the offensive to distance his client from who he alleged was the true mastermind of the scheme, Kate's now former boyfriend, Mark D'Amico. Giroux released the secret recordings of D'Amico berating McClure to establish the dynamic of the relationship at the time.
and he insisted that Kate's motivations in raising the money for the homeless man were benign and pure. From the start, Kate thought she was helping a veteran who was homeless, and that Mr. D'Amico was the one behind this, and he was calling all the shots. Mark Davis, the attorney for Mark D'Amico, laughed off the assertions that Kate was completely innocent. Quote, If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.
It's the most desperate act of a co-defendant to separate herself for any and everything that she possibly can. In the spring of 2019, Kate McClure pleaded guilty to a state charge of second-degree theft by deception and a federal charge of conspiracy to commit wire fraud. She faces up to four years in prison and will serve the federal and state sentences concurrently. Johnny Bobbitt Jr. pleaded guilty to both state and federal charges as well.
As part of his deal, Bobbitt was placed into a court-sponsored drug treatment program for up to five years in lieu of time behind bars. McClure and Bobbitt must also pay $402,766 in restitution. As for alleged ringleader Mark D'Amico, he rejected a plea deal that included a five-year prison term and has not been indicted on any federal charges. D'Amico's state trial is pending.
Everyone who donated to the Pay It Forward campaign was refunded by GoFundMe. In the help section of the website, there is documentation related to recognizing and reporting fraud. The company doesn't want to let a few negative stories override all the good that its platform can accomplish. It's important not to let a few bad apples ruin the whole bunch. Burlington County Prosecutor Scott Coffina agrees. A case like this can make generous people skeptical and a little more hesitant to help someone else in need.
I urge you not to let that happen. There is a lot of hardship in the world and it is commendable to show generosity to those in need. Swindled is written, researched, produced, and hosted by me, a concerned citizen, with original music by Trevor Howard. Special thanks to Laura from the Fall Line podcast for letting us use her voice. The Fall Line focuses on cold cases in marginalized communities in the southeastern United States. They just released a new season and it's great. Go check it out. Highly recommend it.
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Oh, and special thanks to everybody that came out to the meet and greet in Los Angeles. That was amazing. You made us feel very special. Thank you. Boston, we will see you soon. Go to swindledpodcast.com slash events for more info. That's it. Thanks for listening.
Hi, I'm Rebecca Lieb. And I'm Jason Horton. And we're the hosts of Ghost Town, a comedy podcast about all places abandoned, tragic, mysterious, haunted, and true crime-y. That's not a word. We cover all kinds of locations like... The Los Feliz Murder House. And L.A. Murder Frozen in Time. Action Park. The world's most dangerous amusement park. JonBenet Ramsey's house. Woodstock 99. The Cecil Hotel. And the Black House. Ooh, Satan. So pause the podcast you're currently listening to immediately and go subscribe to Ghost Town. You can find us at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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