112. Ferdowsi: How One Poet Saved Persian Civilisation
56:41 Share

If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast, ad-free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.empirepoduk.com.

With Labor Day savings at the Home Depot, you can get up to $1,500 off select appliances from top brands like LG, America's most reliable line of appliances. Like the LG Smart Top Load Washer with easy unload angled front so you can reach every last sock.

Right now, get up to $1,500 off select appliances in-store and online with Labor Day savings at the Home Depot. How doers get more done. Pricing ballot August 22nd through September 11th. U.S. only. See store online for details. America's most reliable line of appliances per independent study. Travel is all about choosing your own adventure. With your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, sometimes that means a ski trip at a luxury lodge in the Swiss Alps.

with a few of your closest friends. And other times, it means a resort on a private beach with no one else in sight. Wherever you decide to go, find the detail that moves you with unique benefits at hand-selected hotels from Sapphire Reserve. Chase, make more of what's yours. Learn more at chase.com slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval.

This episode is brought to you by Heineken Silver. When you discover something you love, like a new podcast or beer, you have to tell everyone about it. So when you try new Heineken Silver, a world-class light beer with only 2.9 carbs and 95 calories, you'll want to tell the world how great it is. New Heineken Silver, the world-class light beer with all the taste, no bitter endings. Available at your local Heineken retailer or for delivery at Heineken.com slash silver. Must be 21 plus to purchase. Enjoy Heineken responsibly.

Hello and welcome to Empire with me Anita Arnon and me William Durham-Poole and very very excitingly because we love her on this podcast we're joined by Vesta Sarkosh Curtis author curator and honorary director of the British Institute of Persian Studies to discuss and we are very excited about this too the Book of Kings the Shahnameh and it's a I mean it's not

To call it a book is really doing it a disservice, isn't it, William? Well, Vesta, you reply to that. You're the proud Persian. What does the Book of Kings, what does the Shandameh mean to a Persian? Well, first of all, hello to everybody. The Book of Kings means an awful lot to us Iranians.

I mean, it is an epic that really revives all the pre-Islamic traditions, all the ancient Iranian traditions, but it also revives the language. To me personally, it's like my Bible. I love it. I love it. I read it. I consult it. It's a source of information. The language is beautiful.

beautiful. It's not difficult. It's not difficult. And it consists of 55,000 double verses. It's in poetry and the most beautiful language that you can imagine. And often presented in the most gorgeous, sumptuous, illuminated manuscripts. Absolutely. I mean, the illuminated manuscripts begin in the 14th century and they become more and more elaborate and

And each story has many illuminations and images. And you can sort of imagine how the people or the heroes looked like, how the animals were, how the demons were. It really is the most magnificent and beautiful book that I can imagine. Yeah.

I was commissioned last year by Sotheby's, the auction house, to write an essay on a page of the Houghton chandame that came up for auction last year. Yes. One of the most beautiful images of all Persian art. Describe it. Describe what it looked like. It was the moment that Rashtam recaptures the horse that's been taken away by the Akhmediv.

And the horse is grazing on a hillside and the artist has filled in every little area with the most gorgeous detail. You can see the sleeping shepherds. You can see the different color of the different horses grazing on this mountainside. It's everything that's most gorgeous about the highest period of Persian art, just early

Safavid period. Well, I think we should really put this into context, Willie, because it's been such a long time since we covered Persia. And we've all been on our Christmas hauls. We've been on our Christmas hauls, but we've also been on the high seas with the Christmas ships miniseries, which you've been so kind about. Thank you so much for all your lovely comments. It was just a joy to sort of do that. It was a very good idea. Whose idea was it? Whose idea was it? I can't remember who was it. Okay.

It was my idea. But anyway, we may do some more themed mini-series in the future because you've responded so well. So watch this space. But, but, but, but, William, could you remind us where we were in the story, the history of Persia before we took our little diversionary break? So Persian history is really sort of divided in two. And our Christmas break was partly designed around the fact that there is a very clear cleavage in the middle of

of Persian history, art and civilization. And that, of course, is the arrival of Islam.

Before the arrival of Islam, you have the whole extraordinary story that we did in the first few episodes of the Achaemenids, who built Persepolis, Cyrus, Darius, Xerxes, the whole rivalry, growing rivalry with the various Greek states. And finally, the arrival of Alexander extinguishing that and Persepolis disappearing into the sands. And then you have a period when you have the rise of Agostino,

a group of people called the Parthians followed by the Sasanians. And the Sasanians are

very nearly rebuild an empire on the scale of their accumulated predecessors. The Sasanian Empire is the great rival of Rome. It stretches all the way from Uzbekistan to the middle of Turkey. It's a hugely powerful force, and it's the only force in the world that defied Rome. Rome, as we know, cut right through civilization after civilization, taking over the whole of Gaul and Britain.

Britain and the whole of North Africa and all the Middle Eastern states that it destroyed, like the Ptolemies in Egypt. But they couldn't take on the Persians. And over a period of four or five hundred years, this rivalry goes backwards and forwards. Sometimes it's the Romans and the ascendancy. Usually it's the Sasanian Persians, and they inflict many

crushing defeats on the Romans and on one occasion even take an emperor prisoner and use him to build roads and bridges for the rest of his life, poor guy. And then you have, and this is what we did just before Christmas, this extraordinary last great war of antiquity.

And this is the moment that the great lovers who are celebrated in later poetry, Khosrow and Shireen, are in charge of Persia. Shireen is a Christian. Khosrow invades the Middle East and captures the true cross for her. He goes to Jerusalem and brings the true cross back to Ctesiphon, his capital.

And then you have this struggle with Heraclius, who's the Byzantine emperor, which ultimately the Byzantines win. And at the end of a 30-year-long war,

both the Sasanian Persians and the Byzantines are completely exhausted. And then something happens that no one anticipates. The Arab tribes, who have been small-time traders in the desert of what's now Saudi Arabia, the Hejaz, unite under a new leader, Muhammad, and under him and his successor, Abu Bakr, they burst out of the Hejaz and

and take first Palestine, then Syria, then Persia. And

Persia, which has been for a thousand years an imperial power, invading other people's territories and taking tribute from other people and forcing other people to do what it wants, suddenly finds the boot on the other foot. And they are occupied by some Arab tribes. A small warrior elite of Arabs are occupying the country. But more specifically, the patronage of the state is now directed to a new religion, Islam, and...

and away from the old Zoroastrian faith, which is in rapid decline, and the official language of government becomes Arabic. So although ordinary people still speak the Persian language in the streets,

There is suddenly no court sponsoring literature, rewarding poets writing in Persian. And Persian almost disappears from the face of the earth as a literary, as a state-backed language. And what we're going to tell the story of today is the extraordinary story of the return of Persian literature.

and particularly the great poet Fardawzi, whose Shahnameh is not just one of the great poems of world history. It is a sort of one-work revival strategy for the Persian language. I mean, that's an excellent summary of what happened before we went off on our ships. Vesta, let me ask you this. I mean, this is a really good thumbnail sketch that William's just given us. How terrible was this

for the Persian psyche, if you like, civilization, culture, because they've not just been conquered militarily. They've had this, as William describes it, this imposition of another language, another religion, another way of living. Well, it's quite drastic. I mean, everything changes, but it doesn't mean that the language disappears.

And even the religion continues for a few centuries in certain parts of the country. It's just that...

the official language becomes Arabic. And it's an alien language. It's not Persian. It's not Iranian. Does that happen immediately? I mean, do a few Persian officials carry on in the ruins of Satisafan? Oh, they do. They do. Absolutely. They do continue. And also the impact and influence of Persian officials is

at the various courts, and particularly under the Abbasids in the 8th, 9th century, is enormous, enormous. I was talking at the end of the last series about the Barmakids, the different generations of Barmakid viziers from Naubahar and Balkh. Yes, and the Barmakids, of course, are very interesting because they may have been Buddhists.

Absolutely. They were hereditary rectors of Nabha. Can I ask, I'm just really interested to know how even the discipline of remembering these verses, of keeping these verses, of holding the imagery in your head can survive when you've got a new religion that doesn't believe in iconography, that doesn't like the imagery and certainly despises the old religions of old Persia?

I would say the sort of ban on imagery is a later development, even in Islam. You don't have that at the very beginning of the Islamic era. And you find the Umayyads in their palaces privately in Jericho and so on, not only having images, but having nudity and images of quite sort of bucolic and bacchic imagery. Yes.

So it sort of comes later, but you also have to bear in mind that in different parts of Iran, local dynasties continued. And particularly the northeast of Iran, Khorasan, northern Afghanistan, becomes sort of the region where the Persian language and Persian culture continues under a dynasty called the Samanids.

These were kings, local kings, who prided themselves of descending from the Sasanian pre-Islamic dynasty. And they encouraged the Persian language, Persian poetry, and the link to the pre-Islamic past. And the Samanids are what, the 10th century, 9th century? 9th century. And it is at this time, it is under the Samanids that

that the whole revival of Persian language begins with poets like Rudaki of Samarkand and Ferdowsi from Tuz near Mashhad in northeast Iran. Because Ferdowsi starts his epic, the Shahnameh or Book of Kings,

under the Samanids. Well, now you've mentioned Ferdowsi. I want to know, I mean, who is he? Where is he born? What is his life? What's his origin story, as we like to say on this podcast? Well, we know about Ferdowsi, interestingly, from other Persian poets. And already about 100 years later, Nizami Arusi gives an account of the life of Ferdowsi. Ferdowsi, the

poet of the Shahnameh, came from a noble landowning family in Nishabur, which is near Mashat in Tuz in northeastern Iran. And he began his composition of the Book of Kings in

in the 10th century and he himself refers again and again to his sources. There were other stories, there were other Book of Kings. He also relies heavily on an oral tradition that is passed on to him

as he says himself, by wise men and priests. Vesta, just fill that out a bit, because 200 years have passed now since the death of the last Sasanian, Yazgur III. Yes. 651 is the date. A long time has passed between what, 940 is the birth of

of Ferdowsi? It was sort of 930s, yeah. 930. In those 200 years, what has happened to the Persian language? Is it only spoken by peasants? No, I think Persian was spoken. The administrative language became Arabic.

You see, if it had disappeared completely and was only spoken by, you know, farmers, then it couldn't have revived. And also, when we talk about Ferdowsi's origin as a Dehkan, it's not a farmer, it's a landowner.

landowner nobility. So he came from a very educated background. So what is the nature of the Arab conquest? Is it a few sort of camps of military warriors who seized the land or

Or is it just paying taxes to people far away? What's the... Well, they do send their governors to the various places. There's no question about it. We have, for example, documents. We have coins minted in the names of the new Arab governors. But even that in itself is quite interesting because for several decades, they even...

mint coins in the way that the Sasanians did with the image of the Sasanian coin. They even used the language. I always think of what's happening in Damascus at this time, which is in the Byzantine end of the new conquest.

where you have someone like the future Saint John Damascene continuing in the administration. He's a Byzantine. He's a Christian. He will become one of the great Christian saints. He will retire to the monastery of Marsaba, now on the West Bank. Yes. But in his youth, he's in the streets with the young caliph messing around, having a good time, and very much part of it. Would you have found...

young Persian ability mixing with the Arab or Eritrean elite? I would say so, yes, definitely. And also advising them. I mean, we have to bear in mind and remember that when the conquerors came, they did not have the expertise. They did not have the professionals. So the Persians, the Iranians produced this expertise and supported them.

And a lot of them actually of the Persians changed their names. So many officials that we come across with Arabic names… Are in fact ethnic Persians. Ah, interesting. Oh, how interesting. So getting back to Ferdowsi himself, would he have considered himself a proud Persian? What would he have considered himself to be? Oh, he would have considered and he does consider himself as an Iranian. You know, Persians…

Ferdowsi has this phrase that has become the sort of slogan of Iranians and the patriotic movement. And it says, If there is no Iran, then I won't exist. Right. I mean, you can't put it more beautiful than that. So little wonder that he's become one of those many icons that we've been talking about lately for the counter-

Aishahullah revolution. Absolutely. And you know, at the beginning of the revolution, the Shahnawmeh was banned. Actually formally banned. Formally banned. But people did not take any notice and they continued. There was a huge interest actually in the Shahnawmeh, perhaps more than before the revolution. And in 1989, the Islamic Republic actually celebrated his millennium. So, um,

I mean, this is Iran for you. These are the Persians. If you can't beat it, join it, I suppose. Can we talk about the man himself? So, I mean, was there any indication in Ferdowsi's childhood, you know, as this landowning family, that he was going to become a scholar of such repute? Well, I think he was destined to become that because of the background, because he was born and brought up

inner educated milieu in Khorasan in northeastern Iran under the Samanids. And this dynasty of the Samanids, they really supported Persian traditions, Persian history and Persian literature. In

In the last episode, we were talking about Kusro and how at the beginning of his reign, he had to flee from Baram Chubin. Yes. Who was this general that kicked him out. The Samanids claimed descent from Baram Chubin, didn't they? Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. So they were instrumental in reviving, as I said, the Persian language. And it's, I mean, at this time under the Salmanids, you have Rudaki and you have also the woman poet, Rabiae.

also in modern day Afghanistan who writes poetry, composes poetry in Persian. So it's a revival. Right. Women were recognized as poets in this time. Yes, yes, yes. And celebrated as such. Yes, yes. Well, that's very interesting. Do we know at what point in his life he sits down and says, and what is the motivation to write the Shahnameh? What happens to Ferdowsi? I think...

I think he says that he came across many sources and he mentions them. For example, he talks about the Namibustan, the ancient book. Do we know what that was? What was the Namibustan? We know through a sort of introductions process.

prefaces in Shah Names that there were few other Shah Names, but none of them were in poetry. They were in prose, except about a thousand double verses by a poet called Dariri, who is mentioned by Ferdowsi. So he was surrounded by all this literary tradition and

the beauty of Ferdowsi is that he mentions and acknowledges these sources. And is there a sense in which what he's doing is unusual only because he's writing it down rather than keeping it in an oral tradition? Or is there a literary written tradition that other examples of which...

other than Rudaki and so on, have been lost? Well, Dariri, if we take Dariri, there was a written tradition, but he was murdered very young, Dariri, so he couldn't complete his work. But the fact that he put it in poetry, that is very important. And he himself, again, if I may read, it says, Barakandam zanazm kohi bolant,

So I created, I built a very tall palace which will not be destroyed by rain or wind. May I just say the translation is beautiful, but when you read it in the original, it's even more beautiful, even though I don't understand what it means until you translate it. And Persians, when they read Fadozi, go into a sort of trance. There is a rhythm to it that gets... Apple!

Absolutely. And you know, the nice thing about Ferdowsi is that, A, people enjoyed, and a lot of people, particularly sort of 60, 70 years ago, who couldn't read or write in the villages, they could recite Ferdowsi. People may not understand or the names of the other poets that you've talked about may not be familiar, but I've heard Ferdowsi many times compared to the Homer of the East. I mean, is that...

do you think a fair comparison? And secondly, I mean, is the structure of his writing similar to say the Iliad or the Odyssey? It is actually, it is similar and it's also fair. There's only one big difference and that is Ferdowsi does not cover just one generation. Ferdowsi covers the entirety of the ancient Persian period.

Over 400 years, 500 years. Homer is a tradition rather than an individual. Well, you get the impression that Ferdowsi is very much an individual writer with his own style and a biography and a life, a birth date, a death date, and so on. Yes, and all these different stories, they are absolutely beautiful. I mean, to come back to the story of Rostam's horse,

Rachs. Rachs. And Rachs means shiny, luminous. The painter made the horse incredibly luminous. It's in gold and silver. And the whole story, how Rostam discovers...

while hunting this horse. And when he finally catches the horse, he puts his hand on the back of the horse to see if it sort of sinks or not, because Rostam was a very large, big hero. He was the hero of all heroes. And the horse doesn't move. So he takes on this horse and the horse becomes a companion. Rach is not just a horse. Rach is an

animal, is a companion. He's almost a divine, divine creation who helps Rustam. And it's almost a love affair, isn't it? Because when he loses him, he's totally distraught and he can't eat, he can't do anything until he finds Raksha again. Yes. And Raksha protects him. He protects him from the demon, the thief. He protects him from the lions.

He's always there to help and protect Rostam. How does it compare to the Indian tradition, which is often oral? I've worked with Bhopas in Rajasthan who know epics by heart, and they pass it on from generation to generation. Was Fadozi ever memorized in the way that the Mahabharata or the Ramayana was memorized? I would think so, yes, because you have storytellers.

In the Iranian tradition, you have storytellers who recite these stories in front of audiences. With pictures? With pictures. And you have, of course, the so-called, not so-called, but you have the coffeehouse paintings.

of the 19th century and late 18th century where different scenes of the Shah Nami appear and during the recital they sort of served as backdrop. So if you were in the Samanid court or the Ghaznavid court, were

Would you imagine that people would be of an evening rather than turning on the telly and watching Netflix, that they would be summoning Fadozi or the oral storyteller, putting up a picture, showing it with a stick or a finger? I mean, I love this idea of the show and tell, that there's actually an image behind it as well, which means he would have to be a talented orator as well as a talented poet. He would have to be an orator.

Also we know that in the, for example, Sassanian at the time of Khosrow II, there were very famous storytellers and singers, minstrels. Khosrow himself had two very famous minstrels who performed at his court.

And this is a very ancient tradition that goes back actually to the first century AD under the Parthians. Okay. When we talk about Ferdowsi, I mean, I just want to understand exactly a bit more about him. I mean, did he have a religion? Would he have been Muslim, a Muslim convert at this time? He is Muslim and he is a Shiite. And he does make references to Imam Ali. Okay.

So he is not a Zoroastrian. But what is disappointing for him is that when he completes his epic in 1010 and presents it to the new ruler, who is now Sultan Mahmud of Ghazneh, the Ghaznavids have now come to power.

Who is considered a very, very dark name in India. Yeah, he is. I mean, the Samanids are now defeated by this Turkic tribe, Ghaznavid. Sultan Mahmud disappoints Ferdowsi. He does not reward him with gold coins that Ferdowsi was expecting. Sultan Mahmud doesn't like...

the fact that in the Shahnaumeeh, the Turks are the enemies of the Iranians, the Persians. And they are very much throughout, aren't they? They're very much the baddies. So it's not a huge surprise that he wasn't thrilled. But I think what we, again, what I have to add here, that the equation of Iran and Turkey

Turkish tribes is a much later thing. Originally, in the ancient stories that have a very pre-Islamic, in a way Zoroastrian origin,

But Tehran is an Iranian land. Much, much later, Tehran is equated with Turkish land. Right. And just on the Shahnameh itself, I mean, you said it's sort of a 400-year span of history. It's more ambitious than Homer could ever be. Okay. But...

Is it historic or does it divert from the true history of the Persian people? Dramatic. I mean, just talk us through some of that because Alexander does figure in the Shahnameh. Which are those sort of big episodes of history? And Kusra. And how close are they? And Kusra, as you say. And Shireen, who we talked about with great pleasure. Actually,

It covers much more than 400 years. Rostam lives for 400 years, but it starts really with the mythological past.

And the beauty of this part of the Shahnameh is that it corresponds to the most ancient myth of the Zoroastrian texts, the Yasht. So you can actually find names in the Zoroastrian scriptures and in the Shahnameh about this mythological beginning, the sort of appearance of first man who wears a leopard skin.

Then you have King Jamshid or the Yima, the Indian Yima, who introduces religion and kingship. But then he becomes very full of himself and conceited and is punished by God and loses his kingly glory. And yet there's no mention of Jamshid.

Cyrus of Darius or Xerxes. The greater Camenid kings are forgotten. No, but not by name, not by name. But some people believe that perhaps some of the kings that are celebrated in the sort of early part may have really been echoes of Cyrus and Darius. But it's also...

largely because the sort of historical part or the history of Iran was rewritten by Zoroastrian priests in the 6th and 7th century AD. So,

a much more stronger emphasis was put on the Avestan background than the Achaemenid Persian background. Right. So, I mean, Darius Sarus not named, but Alexander is, Sikander is, but it's a kind of a very interesting, different kind of story. Now tell us what does the Shahnameh say about Sikander? Alexander is turned into a semi

Iranian in the Shahnameh. He becomes related to the king, the last Persian king, Dara III. And there is a reason for that. I mean, Alexander in the Iranian tradition couldn't have become the legitimate king of kings of Iran because he was not Iranian. He could not have been

the holder of the kingly glory that God, Ahura Mazda, the Zoroastrian wise lord, would offer and hand over to the king of kings. So in order to, in a way, make the situation plausible, he was turned into a half Persian. I love that. It is.

And he's a very noble figure, isn't he? He comes to the dying Dara and gives him succor. Yes. Is he a man or is he sort of semi-divine? Does he give him godlike qualities as well, this second Alexander? No, no. He's very much just a mortal who does great things. But a noble mortal and exemplary mortal. Yeah. Vesta, what is the significance of the fact that he's so hostile to the Arabs?

and not obviously, although you say he's a Shia, he's not obviously an enthusiast for Islamic history. Absolutely not. I mean, he is very anti-Arab, very anti-Arab. That's so interesting. I mean, you know, sometimes...

a bit uncomfortably. Like what? I mean, give us some examples of where you're cringing. We can't see that on an audio format. Well, he does refer again and again that the Arabs destroyed everything, that the Arabs ruined the language. And there are

are actually references also that he makes about sort of unpleasant. I don't want to go into that. No, but how interesting and how significant. And how interesting that you feel as uncomfortable. It must have been pretty bad. 200 years have passed since the conquest and yet this is obviously a very raw Luke Boer wound. Very much so. And also there is this story of

of Zahak, the usurper who comes to the throne after the rule of Jamshid or Yima. And he introduces a period of darkness into the history of Iran. And he has made a pact with Ahriman or the devil, and two snakes come out of his shoulders. And

Every day he has to feed young men to these snakes, but he's described as an Arab. Do you know what? It's a good point to take a break. Well, I was going to say, eating snakes, eating serpents, eating men is never a good point to take a break, but we will anyway. Join us after the break when we hear more from our excellent guest, Vesta Sarkosh Curtis, and more about this extraordinary book, The Shahnameh.

Travel is all about choosing your own adventure. With your Chase Sapphire Reserve Card, sometimes that means a ski trip at a luxury lodge in the Swiss Alps.

with a few of your closest friends. And other times, it means a resort on a private beach with no one else in sight. Wherever you decide to go, find the detail that moves you with unique benefits at hand-selected hotels from Sapphire Reserve. Chase, make more of what's yours. Learn more at chase.com slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. You may get a little excited when you shop at Burlington. They have my favorite!

I told you so.

Welcome back. So just before the break, we were talking about sort of the heavy and almost, I mean, it feels to me almost like the Greek myth imagery of serpents eating men and tributes. I mean, how much of the Hellenistic is Greek?

kind of influential or how much of this is a mix of different invasions, incursions in the history of Persia itself? I don't think there is actually, not in the Shahnameh, you can't find or there aren't that many Hellenistic features there. It's sort of very much a tradition where evil things are associated with insects and snakes and

Then, of course, you have the demons from various stories like the Deves. These are people that are presented as the enemies of Iran. I mean, the main story within the Shah Nomeh is the fight between Iran

good and evil Iran and its opponents. And all the heroes have one task, and that is to save and protect Iran. And of course, the most important hero, the Jahan Pahlavan,

the hero of the world, is Rustam. Tell us more about Rustam. For those who don't know, I mean, both of you have been discussing Rustam because you know, but who is he? What is his story and why is he so important? Oh, he's the hero who lives in the Shahnawmeh for 400 years. He is the hero that survives many kings and he helps kings and he protects the frontiers of Iran. He is the son of Ismail.

Zal and Rudabeh. And it's very interesting how he comes to this world, how his father, Zal, was brought up by a legendary bird. When Zal is born, he is completely white. He may have been an albino. We don't know. And the father is shocked to see this baby. And he says, I don't want to have anything to do with this and abandons the baby.

The baby is then rescued by the legendary Seymour, a bird that takes Zal up to the Alborz Mountains and brings up Zal as its own baby.

And then the father of Zal has a dream that his son is somewhere in the mountains being brought up by a bird, a legendary bird. And the father decides that time has come. He's done a terrible thing and he has to go back.

and rescue his child. So he goes to the top of the Alborz Mountains and sees this bird and asks the bird to return his son to him. Eventually Rostam is returned and something magic happens. Zal tells

Or Simur, the bird, tells Zal, if you are ever in trouble, light my feather. And he gives him a few feathers. And I will come to your rescue. Time passes. Zal and Rudabeh, Zal marries Rudabeh, and they expect a child. And the child...

is Rostam. But because he is so big, a natural birth is impossible. And there are actually illuminations. There are beautiful paintings where Rudabe is lying there, you know, and she is in pain.

And her husband takes a feather and brushes it onto her tummy because the bird appears and says, oh, she needs a C-section. She needs to be cut up. Wow.

And Rostam comes out and Ferdowsi describes how he is a beautiful infant, but like an elephant. Like an elephant. Hence the C-section. Hence the C-section. So the story of Rostam is magnificent.

He continues to grow up. He becomes a very famous hero and he moves continuously from one part of the country to the other. Fighting off the Turanians. Turanians, yes. And his most famous enemy, Afrasia.

Afrasiyab is the embodiment of everything that is anti-Iran. Anti-Iran. And then there is the story that, of course, Rostam goes to Samangan, which is in modern-day Afghanistan, and he meets the daughter of...

of the king of Kabul falls in love and then spends a night with her. And before he leaves, he gives her an omelet and says, if you ever become pregnant or have a child of mine, if it's a boy, use this as an omelet on his arm. And if it's a girl, put it in her hair. And Rostam moves away from Rostam

Samang Gan, and gives birth to a child, to a son called Sohrab. And of course, Matthew Arnold has this wonderful poem of Sohrab and Rusta, which deals exactly with this story.

And now you've got to finish that story. What happens? Yes. Well, I was going to say, can you read a little bit of it in Persian and then finish the story? Because I'd love to hear what this epic poem sounds like in its original language, if it's at all possible. Yes. What is very moving is the end of the story because Rostam decides to go to Iran and find his father.

But both the Iranians and the Tehranians are not very keen that these two people should meet. Particularly the Tehranians, the eastern enemies, they're worried that Sohrab would go to the enemy and they would lose the battle against Iran.

So he goes out with his horse and every time he asks about Rostam, nobody gives him really clear answers. And then he meets Rostam on the battlefield because Rostam is also not told that his son is coming to find him. And these two start fighting with each other. And Rostam eventually

eventually wounds or inflicts a heavy wound on Sohra. And as he's lying there on the ground, he says, wait till my father finds out that you have killed me. And Rostam says, well, who is your father? And he says, it's Rostam. And Rostam cries and cries.

is just beyond himself. And then Rostam says in Persian, konon ger to dar aab mahi shavi, baya chon shab andar siyahi shavi, bekhahat hamaz to pedarkine man, cho binat ke kheshtas baline man.

"There's no point in you crying, even if you become a fish and disappear into waters. My father will come and take revenge when he sees that my pillow is made of earth."

the ground. And Rustam, when he sees that, the whole world turns black in front of him. And then he says, well, open your, you know, your tunic. So Hrab opens his tunic. He sees the armlet. So he knows it's true.

And he's killed his own son. Yeah, yeah. And Ferdowsi lost his son, didn't he? There's a lament. Yes. And this is like an unusual thing because it is so very personal. It comes out of the stories of kings and the stories of legend. It's absolutely magnificent. It's painful. It really is painful. I mean, the whole story. It's beautiful. And yes, it probably reminded Ferdowsi of his own son. Maybe we'll read a little...

William, you and I, and then maybe we'll hear Vesta do some of it in the original Persian. Now that I'm more than 65 years old, it would be wrong of me to hope for gold. Better to heed my own advice and grieve that my dear son is dead. Why did he leave? I should have gone. But no, the young man went and left his lifeless father to lament. I long to overtake him. When I do, I'll say...

I should have quit the world, not you. And in your going, my beloved boy, you left your father destitute of joy. You were my help in adversity. Why now I'm old have you abandoned me? Did you perhaps find younger friends who led you from my side to travel on ahead? At 37, his unhappy heart despaired and he was ready to depart.

When difficulties came, he'd always shown me kindness. Now he's left me here alone. He went while grief and bitter tears remain and inward suffering and heartfelt pain. He's gone into the light and he'll prepare a place of welcome, his dear father there.

So many years have passed and surely he is waiting there impatiently for me. May God illuminate your soul, my son, and wisdom keep you safe where you have gone. That's Dick Davis's translation of Fadaji's Lament for his own son.

Yeah, what did happen to his son? What did happen to Ferdowsi's son? We don't know what happened, but he died. He probably died of an illness, yes. How does the Shahnameh conclude? I mean, where does it take us up to? Well, Rustam dies.

Rustam is killed by his half-brother. Again, you know, you have all the time the sort of forces of goodness and evil. And his half-brother, Shakad, builds a pit full of arrows and daggers and swords and swords.

somehow lures Rostam into the pit together with Rahsh. And Rahsh tries to warn Rostam not to go near the pit. Rahsh, the horse. The horse, yeah. And then they fall into the pit and Rostam is so much wounded that he can't survive. But

At the very end, he manages to hit out on his brother and kill him, the half-brother. And that's how this Shahnameh finishes. And what is the origin of the story of Rastam? Is it an oral tradition? Is it from the Zoroastrian tradition? Where does its roots lie? No, interestingly, not. It's not.

And we think, I mean, Rostam himself, or Ferdowsi describes him as a king of Sistan, which is southeastern Iran, Afghanistan. He describes him as a Sagzi, as a Saka, a Scythian. I mean, these are Iranian peoples who live in eastern Iran.

And he is a local king there. Interestingly enough, his name does not appear in the Avestan scriptures. And it is thought that he comes from an Eastern Iranian tradition, not actually at all related to Zoroastrian heroes. Interesting. It's interesting because I know so many Zoroastrians who call their children Rustam. Rustam. Rustam.

So many Russos and Anahitas and Gustavs. Yeah, very important figure actually amongst the Zoroastrians and Parsis. The poetry is so moving. I mean, the translation was moving when you read it too, just the lilting nature of the sound is so transporting. So when he...

delivers the Shahnameh, do people immediately recognize his genius? I mean, is he glorified and does he bathe in the glory of his work? No, he does not. I mean, certainly the people who should have glorified his work, the ruler, Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni, does not appreciate it. And he goes back to his hometown of Tuz,

really upset and very discouraged. He gives away the silver coins. He regards it as such a paltry payment. He knew how much his work was worth. Yes, and Sultan Mahmud is then convinced by his courtiers and his nobles that

that this is really a very important piece of work. And when he sends out an envoy to find Ferdowsi, Ferdowsi has died. Oh my goodness. So he dies without his work being recognised. Well, yes, he doesn't realise how he is going to be loved and cherished. Can I just read some of the lines of that reaction he had to the silver coins rather than

the gold coins because it is actually, it's glorious. It's in the Shahnameh. I mean, he's pissed off and he writes exactly how he feels. After 65 years had passed over my head, I toiled ever more diligently with greater difficulty at my task. I searched out the history of kings, but my star was a laggard one. Nobles and great men wrote down that I had written without paying me.

I watched them from a distance as if I was a hired servant of theirs. I had nothing from them but their congratulations. My gallbladder was ready to burst with their congratulations. Their purses of hoarded coins remained closed and my bright heart grew weary at their stinginess. I love it.

Yeah. It's funny because Mehmet Oghazni is someone who's hated both in the Indian tradition and in the Persian tradition. In India, he's hated for destroying temples. In Persia, he's hated for not rewarding Fardawzi with what his work was worth. So Vesta, who tells the story of poor Fardawzi not being paid for his work or only getting pathetic silver coins? Later poets.

Later poets, like I mentioned, Nizami Aruzi, they describe this and we know that from various sources. I've seen beautiful miniatures again of Ferdowsi walking away from the gates of Mehmood's palace. That must be from Nizami. Yeah. So, I mean, we've covered the poor death of Ferdowsi. And I mean, it's such a tragic end and just not what he deserved. Was his funeral at least?

Was it held with great reverence? Or even then, even his death wasn't recognized? No, no. He didn't have a great funeral. In fact, we know that his tomb was actually attacked and destroyed for a while. But again, Nizami Aruzi died.

in the early, very beginning of the 12th century, says that his tomb was rebuilt and it became a site of pilgrimage for Iranians. So at the time of his death, no, he definitely wasn't celebrated. And we should say that when he died, he died in Tabaristan on the southeast coast of the Caspian. And he did have a Persian chief named Ispabud.

Yes. Who looked after him in his old age. Yes. And the story about Mahmoud Ghazni, there's this lovely moment when someone actually quotes a verse from Fadozi and Mahmoud looks up and says, oh, that's wonderful. Who wrote that?

And it's that point that he realizes what he's done wrong and offers 60,000 gold dinars. And the messenger goes to find him and the news comes he's just died. And it's too late. Yeah, yeah, too late. Let's talk about the resurgence of both the Persian language, the Persian culture, and Ferdowsi himself. Tell us a little bit about when that happens. Well, this happens with Ferdowsi because Ferdowsi,

With his Shah Nama, he starts a new tradition and there are various other books about heroes, about kings that are produced.

after Ferdowsi and from the 13th, 14th century onwards. And the Mongols, of course, seized on this idea of kingship in order to legitimize their rule and produced magnificent Shah Namesh, illustrated Shah Namesh in Iran. The Ilkhanids in Tabriz, particularly. Ilkhanids, yeah, absolutely, yes.

So he really started a tradition that continued right through to the 19th, early 20th century under the Khajas. We should also say that something very important happens also in the Mongol period. The initial Mongol invasions, which are catastrophic for Khorasan, where the Persian language is being preserved and the flame is being kept alive.

produces this wave of refugees. Today, in our own time, we've seen what happened in Syria during the war. And Syria is a small country, and these refugees have flooded across the Mediterranean, have entered Turkey, and so on. The same happens on a much, much greater scale with Genghis Khan. And all these Persian speakers, Rumi, for example, flees to Anatolia, but many flee to the new Delhi Sultanate, which has just been founded in North India.

And this is like a bridgehead. It's very fragile. It's got no culture. It's just a bunch, rather like the American West in the kind of 1850s. And this sudden surge of Persian-speaking, highly educated... Persian excellence washes up. Persian excellence come here. And you find suddenly in sort of the 1240s, 50s, this blossoming of Persianate culture.

culture in the Delhi Sultanate. It had previously been a very Philistine and very rough and tumble warrior world. And you have the first great madrasas opening up in Delhi at Hauskas. And Persian becomes the language of diplomacy and literature.

in India. And by the Mughal period, in the 16th and 17th, there are more books being written in Persian in India than in the old Iranian lands. It is only the British conquest in the 1830s that ends that Persian tradition and nips it in the bud.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Then you get also in with the Safavids. When the Safavids reestablish Iran as in a sense a nation state, a country named Iran, not just a land of the Persians, a place where the Persian language and Persian culture is kept alive, but the Safavids bring back the geography.

Yes. Of Iran. And they reach for the Shah Nomeh as a national text, don't they? Absolutely. And you have magnificent illustrated Shah Nomehs produced at Tabriz, in Ghazvin. Shah Tamas, particularly, arguably the greatest of all the Shah Nomehs. And in Herat as well. And the great, great...

But they bring, I think the Safavids bring the best of the scribes and the painters from Herat. They mix them with the best of the painters in Tabriz. They bring them together in one place. And the result of the Shahnameh of Shatamas, which is to Persian art of that period, what Fardawzi is to. Yes. It's the great masterpiece. Yes.

We will leave it in your hands on how to actually leave this wonderful, epic and emotional story. Vesta, what are the lines that we should be left with? I think I would like to finish off with the beginning of the Shahnameh and Ferdowsi's words, which are equally moving as all the other stories.

And to me, it's quite significant that he starts off in praise of God, but he uses the Zoroastrian terms of the Lord of Wisdom, right? He says, بِنَامِ خُدَاوَنْدِ جَانُ خِرَدْ كَذِين بَرْتَرْ أَنْدِيشِ بَرْنَكْ زَرَدْ

says in the name of the Lord of both wisdom and mind.

This is Ahura Mazda. It's lovely and it is perfect. To nothing sublime can thought be applied. The Lord of whatever is named or assigned, a place in the sustainer of all and the guide. I think I'd like to finish off here. It can't be more beautiful. I can't think of a better way. Well, you've brought us full circle and so beautifully and so elegantly. Vesta, thank you so much. My pleasure.

That's it from Empire with me, Anita Arnon. And me, William Durham-Poole.