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I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Swine off.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
In the early morning hours of September 6, 2016, St. Louis rapper and activist Darren Seals was found murdered. That's what they gonna learn. On for death, on for nothing. Every day Darren would tell her, all right, ma, be prepared.
They are going to try to kill me. All episodes available now. Listen to After the Uprising, The Murder of Darren Seals on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2009, Mitrice Richardson was released from the Malibu Lost Hill Sheriff's Station, and she never made it home.
Nearly a year later, Mitrice's remains were found in a canyon six miles from the station. Her death is Malibu's greatest unsolved mystery. I'm Dana Goodyear in Lost Hills, Dark Canyon. What happened to Mitrice Richardson? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning with another Betrayal Bonus episode.
As the Betrayal team works hard to bring you Season 3 and at the same time turn Ashley's story into a docuseries, we wanted to introduce you and Ashley to Stacey, the person who will share her story in Season 3. We also wanted to check in with Erin Adams, who is having a hard day after getting some bad news.
First, we wanted to learn more about one of the organizations working to keep kids and families safe. So we asked Jenny Coleman, the director of Stop It Now, if she would sit and speak with us. Jenny, thanks so much for joining us today. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. I'm with Ashley Litton. She's the subject of season two of Betrayal. Before we get into Ashley's story, I want to hear a little bit about what you do. Can you tell us about Stop It Now?
Oh, absolutely. Stop It Now is a national child sex abuse prevention program.
We actually focus on perpetration prevention, which means we really want to help folks who are in a position that they're seeing warning signs or a vulnerable environment and help them know what steps they can take to interrupt any sort of harmful or abusive trajectory. It could be signs in a spouse, a partner, a family member, your concerns that they're struggling with safe boundaries.
But we also serve everyone, parents who have found out their child has been harmed or abused or that someone they know has abused someone. Anybody who's in position that says, you know, I want to keep kids safe and I feel like I could do more or I'm seeing something that's concerning me. And to do that, we offer a free confidential helpline. We also have a website full of free downloadable resources on everything from what are warning signs,
to how do I check into my child's school? So visit us at stopitnow.org. Ashley, do you want to share with Jenny a little bit about your story and some of the hurdles that you're dealing with now? Yeah. Hi, Jenny. Hi, Ashley. I'm glad to meet you. So my husband was convicted of child sexual exploitation and voyeurism. He served 10 months in county jail.
He will be on our sex offender registry for 10 years. And now we have been going through a pretty terrible divorce for two years now. And because he is doing well in his court mandated therapy for sex offenders, he has had supervised visits with our 10 year old.
And as soon as the end of this month, he will have unsupervised visits with her. I'm so sorry that you and your family have had to go through this. I can't imagine just what a difficult time. And you've been such a protective mom and you are the epitome of what to do when you make such a horrific discovery. In your line of work, do you see a lot of parents navigating this process of visitation and
And what are some recommendations that you can offer to Ashley?
I was thinking earlier about how important it is to know that we can't control everything that happens in the world, but how we respond is what really makes or breaks us. And so we look at what do we have control over? And that's how we talk with our kids about safety. What are good boundaries? What are our rules? So if anybody, even someone you love and care about, a parent, a grandparent, a professional, someone in a faith-based institution does cross your boundaries,
We give our children tools to keep them safe. Statistically, the recidivism rates for sex crimes are pretty low, but you're kind of on the ground running. What do you see? What are your thoughts on that? So recidivism is really tricky because it is low, but that's what we know. Interestingly enough, what we do hear is from people who do want to change and who want help, but that's why they come to our site.
They recognize that they're struggling with safe boundaries. They're struggling with their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. These are people who want help to not cross a line, or if they have crossed a line, they want help not to. But I think the point with that is that they've taken responsibility and are accountable. So there's kind of a model of success. In terms of model for success, if you hear, I found God and now I'm healed, or I'm
I was sick, but now I'm healed. How do you feel about those statements in terms of recovery? This is not to in any way diminish the power of anybody's faith. It is fine to say I have found faith through this process, but here's how that's impacted me. Here's what I've learned about myself. Here's what it is that I plan to do differently. Here's how I plan to get support. There's got to be a lot more than just, oh, I...
Didn't have God in my life before, and now I do, and so I'm a safe person. That is not going to cut it.
And if someone is communicating just that, does that give you cause for concern about their rehabilitation process or where they are in their recovery process? It absolutely does. That statement in and of itself to me is really leaving out such a huge important part. It doesn't help heal the harm. It just doesn't demonstrate an understanding of the harm that they've caused.
God didn't cause this harm. I, as a human being, harmed the people I love in my family by crossing their boundaries and violating their privacy and engaging in illegal, harmful behavior by doing X, Y, and Z. It doesn't include that, so it's not enough. So much of this process, I feel like you were...
voiceless, Ashley. And part of the podcast was you reclaiming your voice, reclaiming your power. Jenny, do you have any recommendations for Ashley on how she can stand in her power in all of this?
That's a great question, just because I already see you doing that. I mean, you're such a protective mom and you are speaking out. And I do want to say I'm not one of those folks that feel like everybody has to disclose abuse in their life. But I do think being able to use your voice to educate others, share your experience, encourage others is incredibly powerful.
and realizing I couldn't control everything and I'm doing all the right things now. Forgiving yourself, having your own good personal therapy or counseling to support you, and just self-care, really important to reclaiming your power as well. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for joining us today. And I appreciate all of your insight. Yeah, thank you so much.
I will definitely look for some different resources on Stop It Now. I didn't know that was also a resource for people like me. So thank you for that. Absolutely. Write me directly and I'd be happy to point you to some resources I'm thinking about that may be helpful as well. Oh, all right. Cool. Thank you so much, Jenny. And thank you for all the work that you do. Thank you. Thank you.
Again, go to StopItNow.org if you or someone you know is worried about their thoughts and feelings towards children. Next, we'll get an update from someone you met before in Season 2, Erin Adams. And if you haven't heard her story before, check out Season 2, Episode 6. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Oh my God.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today, and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
New from Double Asterisk, an iHeart Podcast, a 10-part true crime podcast series. Emergency 911. This is fire in my fucking life. This car is on fire. In the early morning hours of September 6, 2016, St. Louis rapper and iconic Ferguson activist Darren Seals was found shot dead. Every day Darren would tell her, they are going to try to kill me.
A young man in 2016 was killed on this block. I'm a podcast journalist. And I'm a former state senator, Maria Chappelle Nadal. I was in the movement with Darren, and I've spent two years with co-host Ray Novoselsky investigating his death. Even if I did want to tell you something, that's a dangerous game to play. The FBI did this to myself. They've been following him for months. That's enough proof right there. All episodes available now.
Listen to After the Uprising Season 2, The Murder of Darren Seals, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. The Trail is now releasing episodes every single week. We're bringing you new stories about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Every week, we'll share firsthand accounts of broken trust. I was sitting there thinking, what?
Who did I marry? Shocking deceptions. I said, I can't believe what I'm listening to. And the trail of destruction they leave behind. To me now, a rom-com is a horror movie. I couldn't watch that if you paid me. Now you can get access to Betrayal Weekly 100% ad-free and one week early with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription. Available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love like There and Gone South Street, Creating a Con, The Story of BitCon, Paper Ghosts, Unrestorable, The Girlfriends, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeartTrue Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
You might remember Erin Adams. She was a marriage and family therapist whose husband Joel pled guilty to 25 felony charges of child sexual abuse material and was sentenced to eight years in prison, but was released just after three years.
After finding out that Erin's husband had re-offended, Ashley and I wanted to catch up with her to see how her custody fight was progressing. Erin, do you have the hiccups? I do. I'm trying to calm myself. I think it's cute. How are you? I'm mad as hell today. Big mad?
Yeah, big pad. Big sad. No. What's going on? I just thought this was over, you know, and it's not. Yeah. Basically, they just said, yeah, you still have to take your kids to supervised visits. I'm like, he's awaiting sentencing next week. But they said, this is family court. We know nothing about that. You still have to take your kids there.
I'm just irate about the mess that this has caused. Joel reoffended? Yeah. How did you find out about that and how did that all play out? I don't know the circumstances of how or why he reoffended. All I know is that it was a felony charge.
It's public on the court county website. And my lawyer had called me to prepare me for court. And she said, guess what? He did it again. So this should be easier now. I've never once felt anything got easier throughout this entire process. I've never felt that freedom. Like how do you get caught?
He had things on his phone that violated his parole and got him sent back for more charges. Wow. I think you and I both are fighting that same fight right now. I was like, fuck, no, he's not seeing her. I'm not doing supervised visits. And I got in trouble for it. They told me I had to let her go to supervised visits, even though I said she doesn't want to go.
How are we supposed to protect these kids? That's exactly how I feel. I mean, it'll always be our job. But I don't think they should have to be on us because I told the judge the very same thing. I said, my kids are still the same age as the kids that he's viewing. And he just...
Did it again. So this isn't an. Oopsie whoopsie. This isn't he accidentally. Stumbled across this page. He purposefully made a habit. Out of this. This is something that he does. She didn't listen to me.
At all. And I said, we've moved on. I'm not even mad at him. I feel sorry for him. Right. I'll abide by the court order. But if he ends up going to prison, I might have bought us some more time. And I absolutely don't coach my kids. I'm only trying to inform my kids. I know this is a super fine line.
I said, if you ever change your mind and you want to meet him, you have questions for him, I will 100% uphold that. I will make sure you go and you get your questions answered and you are in a safe place. I don't know that every parent would do that, but I know I will do that.
You're a wonderful mom. You really are. And we are thinking and rooting for you on the sidelines and keep us updated for what happens in the next few weeks, okay? Yeah, I'm always a text away. Coming up, we'll meet with the woman at the center of Betrayal Season 3. I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Come on, Mom.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today, and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
New from Double Asterisk and iHeart Podcasts, a 10-part true crime podcast series. Emergency 911. This is a fire in my apartment life. This car is on fire. In the early morning hours of September 6, 2016, St. Louis rapper and iconic Ferguson activist Darren Seals was found shot dead. Every day Darren would tell her, they are going to try to kill me.
A young man in 2016 was killed on this block. I'm a podcast journalist. And I'm a former state senator, Maria Chappelle Nadal. I was in the movement with Darren, and I've spent two years with co-host Ray Novoshevsky investigating his death. Even if I did want to tell you something, that's a dangerous game to play. The FBI did this to myself. They've been following him for months. That's enough proof right there. All episodes available now.
Listen to After the Uprising Season 2, The Murder of Darren Seals, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. The Trail is now releasing episodes every single week. We're bringing you new stories about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Every week, we'll share firsthand accounts of broken trust. I was sitting there thinking, what?
Who did I marry? Shocking deceptions. I said, I can't believe what I'm listening to. And the trail of destruction they leave behind. To me now, a rom-com is a horror movie. I couldn't watch that if you paid me. Now you can get access to Betrayal Weekly 100% ad-free and one week early with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription. Available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like There and Gone South Street, Creating a Con, The Story of BitCon, Paper Ghosts, Unrestorable, The Girlfriends, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeartTrue Crime Plus, and subscribe today. We wanted to introduce you and Ashley to the person we will all get to know in Season 3 of Betrayal, Stacey Rutherford.
Hi, Stacey. Hey. I have Ashley here with me, and I want to introduce you guys finally. Hey, Ashley. Hi, Stacey. Good to hear from you. It's so good to hear you. So Stacey wrote in after hearing season two.
Stacey, do you want to just share what hearing Ashley's story was like for you? Yeah. Well, my boss at work had told me that she had listened to the podcast and it was so similar to my story that she shared it with me and I went home and binged it that week. It was just like for the first time ever.
I felt understood, like I wasn't alone. I know Ashley probably realizes like in this situation, there's very few people you can talk to who know what you're going through. And I just, I wanted to reach out. Actually, I wanted to find her.
Because I just wanted to talk to her. Like I just wanted somebody that understood me and understood my situation. Wow. As you're telling me that, I was kind of getting teary-eyed because I think when I first started out on this journey, it was for the exact same reason. I mean, I could be in the room with...
you know, all the people that love me and care about me and still feel really alone because nobody really knows. What was it about Ashley's story that felt similar or felt like you understood? I think it was after everything happened, you know, having that anger towards my husband at the time for the betrayal and for doing what he did. But also when you go from loving someone one day to the next day, finding out all of these things,
Everybody thinks you're just automatically supposed to just shut these feelings off. Your love just doesn't magically go away. Neither does, you know, the memories that you had with that person. And I felt shameful. And I think when I heard in Ashley's story that she still had those similar feelings too, it was like, okay, I'm not abnormal for feeling this way and missing those parts of my life. That's been like a really hard thing for me to reconcile because
We did build a life with these men. They were good fathers. They were good husbands. And we did have really great times. But then to have them also be the perpetrator of these terrible things, for me to bring those two together was insanely hard.
But I had a therapist tell me that it's possible to have had this past life with Jason that was happy and good and Jason to be this good person. And he is also a monster.
In the beginning stages of the podcast, I was embarrassed, but I had made a vow to myself that I was going to be 100% truthful with the whole story because I knew that I couldn't be the only one that felt these same things. And so, yeah, I'm glad that that was something that you were able to connect with because I knew people were going to either love it or hate it. Well, that's my fear also. Just like, oh gosh, what are people going to think?
And I think you can very much compartmentalize those kinds of things in that moment, you know, of this is the person I know in this box. This is the person he truly is. Right. And it's hard for someone who was on the outside to see that and understand that, that it just doesn't stop overnight. And so you keep it quiet and you don't tell anyone. And so therefore, I just like say I suffered in silence. Right. I just think people expect grief to be a linear process, but it's not. Right.
And what I've gravitated towards both of your stories is that it's very real. And the struggles and the things that you have to ask and question yourself is what I believe people relate to. And it's a very real human experience and we're not hiding from any of that. And so I applaud both of your ability to be vulnerable and transparent.
Stacey, do you have any advice that you want to ask Ashley going through this experience? Yeah. When everything happened, ours was very highly publicized and I shut everything down on social media for a while because I was afraid people would try to reach out.
So, you know, just that kind of thing. Like, have you had any issues with that, with people trying to reach out to you to say horrible things, not like what I wanted to reach out to you for? Yeah, actually, I did. Surprisingly, though, I was in a social media support group for women going through divorce. And I had asked a question, nothing related to our story or anything. And
And somebody posted links to the news article and just said things like her husband's a pedophile. So I did. I shut my social media down, started a new one with just my family and close friends. For me, you know, I had some of his family who didn't support him, but yet wasn't ready to tell certain family members.
So it was kind of one of those things of like, can you guys just not blast this all over social media, which I hadn't intended to anyways. Right. You know, it was on the news, but luckily we had moved back home. So we were far from that. But, you know, I kind of feel the same way. Like we had to be quiet for so long. Stacey, do you mind sharing with Ashley a little bit about what happened to your family? Yeah.
Sure. In summer of 2021, July of 2021, we had social services show up at our house. They basically just said that there had been a complaint filed. So for the next three weeks, social services investigated us. And at the end of the three weeks, I go to work, our nanny calls, and she's like, you need to come home. So I pull in the driveway and there's all these vans and SUVs and they're raiding my home.
I walk inside. I see my husband sitting at the table with police officers around him. And they take me downstairs and they proceed to tell me that for those three weeks they had been investigating us. And they laid out all these photos. So from there, I ended up making him leave the house. So they didn't arrest him that day? No. Oh, wow. This was July and he was not arrested till October. Okay.
They told me that they wanted to build a big enough case because that was my question, too. I was like, what are you guys waiting on? You know, what more do you need? Right. From there, my understanding is he left the country pretty quick after that. He spent a month over in Europe. He ended up being apprehended when he came back that October of 21. Wow. Yeah.
Our timelines are pretty similar. Really? Yeah, because Jason was arrested on the 29th of September, 2021. Oh, wow. So he was like a month before Justin was. Wow. I have so many questions, but I'm going to, I'll wait. You know, it's so interesting because when Jen approached me to tell her story, our goal was if we could make one person feel safe,
less alone than we did our job. And then through that season, you found the podcast Ash and we told your story. And then through Ashley's story, Stacey, you reached out to us. So I just think it's so amazing that our little community has gone from Jen to you, Ash, and now we have you, Stacey. And I am so grateful that you guys trust us to tell your story. It's truly remarkable. Yeah. I call you guys part of my tribe.
Stacey, you're part of it too. Yeah. I can't say it enough. Like we have to build up so many people and bring light to this like really ugly, dark thing. Yeah. That is so prevalent. Well, Stacey, thank you so much for giving us your time this afternoon. And I
I'll connect you guys so you can continue to talk throughout this process. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. As you go, if you have questions or anything, you just go ahead and give me a call or shoot me a text. It was so awesome to meet you. And, you know, like we said, if it reaches, you know, a few moms or people questioning things, it's worth it. Absolutely. You too. So hold on tight because here you go. Yep, exactly. Okay. Bye. Bye-bye.
Thank you to our growing Betrayal community. If you missed all of our big updates from the last bonus episode, you missed some pretty exciting news. Season 3 of Betrayal will follow Stacey Rutherford's story. When she laid eyes on Dr. Justin Rutherford, she was sure that she was looking at her soulmate.
They fell in love and life was perfect. But this family doctor, beloved father, and treasured husband had dark secrets. The man who had sworn an oath to do no harm would go to great lengths using any means necessary to save himself. Listen to Betrayal Season 3 on May 23rd on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Also, because of the overwhelming response, we are launching Betrayal's weekly series. It's about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This new series debuts end of July. And look for Ashley on the small screen as her story has been turned into an ABC News Studios and Hulu docuseries, streaming this summer on Hulu. If you want to contact the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com.
To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's Cyber Tip Line at 1-800-THE-LOST. If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to stopitnow.org.
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, and also produced by Ben Fetterman and associate producer Kristen Melchiorri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Nico Arruca and Matt Dalvecchio.
I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
In the early morning hours of September 6th, 2016, St. Louis rapper and activist Darren Seals was found murdered. All episodes available now. Listen to After the Uprising, The Murder of Darren Seals on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2009, Mitrice Richardson was released from the Malibu Lost Hills Sheriff's Station, and she never made it home. Nearly a year later, Mitrice's remains were found in a canyon six miles from the station. Her death is Malibu's greatest unsolved mystery. I'm Dana Goodyear. In Lost Hills, Dark Canyon, what happened to Mitrice Richardson? ♪
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.