The Iranian Regime's Most Wanted Woman
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I'm Mary Katherine Hamm, in for Barry Weiss. This is Honestly. In scenes unprecedented in the Islamic Republic, a woman cuts her hair as the crowd cheers her on, chanting death to the dictator. Rare images are trickling out from across Iran, where thousands have taken to the streets in daring acts of defiance never seen before on this scale.

Our protests have turned violent in dozens of Iranian cities as people continue demonstrating the death of a woman in police custody. Last month, a 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman, Masa Amini, was arrested in Tehran by the Islamic Republic's so-called morality police for not wearing her hijab correctly. Three days later, on September 16th, she died in their custody.

Her death ignited a movement. As Iranians took to the streets across the country to demand change. Women cutting off their hair in public and lighting their hijabs on fire. Chanting, women, life and freedom, and death to the dictator. Dictators! Dictators!

Perhaps no one has been a louder and more forceful voice for change in Iran than my guest today, Masih Alinejad, a journalist and activist who has spent her entire adult life fighting for human rights in Iran.

For this, she has paid a heavy price. In 2009, she was forced to flee her homeland. Then the regime accused her of being a spy for Western governments. Then they targeted her family. They arrested her brother, interrogated her mother, and forced her sister to denounce her on state television. And most recently, they tried to kill her on American soil. And yet none of this has deterred her. As she wrote last month in the Wall Street Journal, "I am not fearful of dying because I know what I am living for."

Today, I talk to Masi about all of this, the young woman's death that sparked the protests, what the U.S. should do, whether or not this is a revolution like we've never seen before, and why the Iranian regime wants Masi dead. We'll be right back. Hey, guys, Josh Hammer here, the host of America on Trial with Josh Hammer, a podcast for the First Podcast Network. Look, there are a lot of shows out there that are explaining the political news cycle, what's happening on the Hill, the this, the that.

There are no other shows that are cutting straight to the point when it comes to the unprecedented lawfare debilitating and affecting the 2024 presidential election. We do all of that every single day right here on America on Trial with Josh Hammer. Subscribe and download your episodes wherever you get your podcasts. It's America on Trial with Josh Hammer. Hi, Mazzi. Welcome to Honestly. Thank you so much. Honestly, I'm very happy being with you. I'm so glad. And we had a bit of an adventure getting you a mic this morning.

Because I've been moved to another safe house. You know, since the FBI arrested a man with a loaded gun in front of my house, it has been now four different safe houses that I'm experiencing now.

It's so weird in America. I mean, still, I'm not safe. So the word safe is too luxury for those who dare to speak up against Islamic ideology, against religious dictatorship. But it's not about me. Look, millions of women inside Iran, bravely burning their headscarves. They are saying that we want an end to a religious dictatorship.

And we're going to get into why the Iranian regime has been after you for years, because it really is the stuff of a homeland season. But as you say, this is about the people on the ground in Iran. So can you tell me the story of Mahsa Amini? Mahsa Amini's story, it's shocking, shocking. She was only 22 years old from Kurdistan, Saqqez. She just left her town. She came to Tehran for a vacation.

After two hours, police stopped her, arrested her for not wearing hijab properly. I'm going to repeat myself. She was arrested not just because of being unweighed. She was arrested because a bit of her hair was visible. Can you believe that? And then she got bitten up.

The hijab police, you know, just gave the dead body of Mahsa Amini to her family. So Mahsa's brutal death actually becoming a turning point for Iranian women. And it is a tipping point for the Islamic Republic. People are furious. They are in the streets. They're not backing down. They're not going back to their houses because they say that enough is enough.

That could have happened to our daughters. That could have happened to us. Students, schoolgirls, university students, teachers, professors from universities, they all came out and they're all chanting not only against compulsory job, they say that we want an end for the Islamic Republic.

I think in order for listeners to understand why these protests are gaining so much traction, we need to understand a little bit more about what life is like in Iran right now. Can you tell us more about the everyday lives of some of these women and girls who are in the streets right now in the Islamic Republic of Iran? What are some of the restrictions listeners might not be aware of in addition to compulsory hijab? Of course, because, you know, I'm sure that your listeners, your audiences are being, you know, bombarded by...

misinformation, disinformation about what's going on in Iran. In Iran, all the laws are anti-women. Like from the age of seven, when you want to go to school as a girl, you have to cover your hair. If you don't cover your hair, you will be kicked out from school from the age of seven. If you don't cover your hair,

You won't be able to get an education. You won't be able to get a job. You won't be able to exist, to live in your own country. But it's not just about that.

When you walk unveiled in the street, you get lashes. You get bitten up by morality police. You go to jail, morality police stop you, warn you, fine you, take you to jail. Maybe you don't even know what morality police mean, but I'm going to tell you. The bunch of police officers walking around, they are hijab police, not actually, they named themselves morality police, but they are there to monitor you and they tell you that cover yourself properly.

I mean, it's not even being unveiled. If a little bit of your hair is shown, you get arrested. You have to pay money to get free. Your car gets confiscated if you drive unveiled inside your car. So as a woman, you're not allowed to go to a stadium. You're not allowed to dance. You're not allowed to sing.

to sing, to sing solo. I mean, I have a beautiful voice. There are a lot of women that have beautiful voice and we're not allowed to sing in 21st century. We're not allowed to get a passport without getting permission from our husband. We're not allowed to travel abroad. I mean, if you're a woman, free woman, you are a master criminal because you have to break the laws every day to just be your true self. This is the true situation of Iranian women. Women are being treated like second-class citizens.

You've been posting videos and images of these protests on the ground where women and men inside of Iran, there's one particularly beautiful one of schoolgirls singing.

Their backs turned to the camera, their hijabs off and their hair flowing sometimes all the way down their backs, perhaps for the first time in public. Tell me about the symbolism of a video like that and what this means. I mean, first of all, I have to say that the Iranian regime made a law saying that if anyone sent videos to Masih al-Inajad, we'll be charged up to 10 years prison.

To you specifically? To me specifically. I mean, I cannot believe this is happening in 21st century. But they are stupid. They don't even know that now women are fearless. Now they don't need even me. They uploaded the video on their own social media. They send it to different people in the West because they don't have anything to lose.

So they made up their mind that this is the time. We're going to take to the streets. We're going to publish the videos. Anyway, those people who are not scared of facing guns and bullets, you think they're going to get scared of revolutionary guards telling them, oh, don't send videos to outside Iran, to Western journalists, Western media? Not at all. They are fearless.

Many of them saying that, you know, in our schools, we're being warned with our teachers saying that school principals, if you send videos to outside Iran, you go to the streets, you're going to lose the opportunity to get an education. But they don't care. You know, some of them actually burning their headscarves in public. For them, headscarves is not just a small piece of cloth. They are actually burning one of the most visible symbol of oppression.

You know what I mean? All the videos that we have been receiving, it's just, I cannot describe. It gives me goosebumps. A woman actually filmed herself before going to the protest.

Her name was Hadis Najafi. She was only 20 years old. She was walking unveiled, filming herself and saying that, I'm going to the protest. She was crying for Mahsa Amini. And on her way to a protest, she posted this video to her friends. In the end, I'll be happy I went to a demo when everything's changed, she said.

And then she said that, oh my God, I'm actually dreaming a day when the regime change happened, then I'm going to be proud of myself that I was part of the demonstration. She was killed on the same city street.

shot in the chest, neck and face by what appears to be a shotgun. She got killed. She got killed by the security forces who are actually trying to show the rest of the world that we didn't kill Masa. But they are killing teenagers right now in the streets.

Well, you talk about these tragic deaths, particularly among young people. As of last week, the protest death toll was reported at 76. We're almost certain there are more than that. Others jailed. The price that folks are paying is incredibly high. A lot of the protests seem to be energized by Gen Zers.

I'm curious why you think these 20-somethings, they don't have a memory of life before the Islamic Republic. They have no cultural memory or firsthand experience of expansive freedom in any way. How did they come to be driven to demand this at such a high price? Look, these people that you see in the streets, they are the TikTok generation. They are watching the rest of the world.

The future of Iran, the young generation that are in the streets right now are rejecting the Islamic ideology that has been imposed on us for 40 years. They're saying that we are mature enough to choose our own lifestyle. You know, they're saying we don't want this religious dictatorship anymore. And if you look at the images, they're like my son's age. Can I stop here? Yes. So...

They deserve to have a normal life. I'm just looking into their faces now, and I cannot believe that they are getting killed just because they want to have a normal life. Yes, you mentioned that they have no clue about Iran before the revolution, but I just received a video from a 15-year-old girl fighting her parents.

in telling them that, why don't you come with me to the streets? You ruined our life. Your revolution became a revolution against our generation. Now it's your responsibility that you have to take to the streets with us to end this regime. Because of the internet, they see that how

our social rights being taken away from us that we already had before the revolution, you know? They see that around the world, the young generation, they just enjoy their lives. They are happy. But being happy is a crime in Iran. So what we are seeing, it's, yes, the TikTok generation is

And they are the ones actually scaring the regime. You know, they are the ones actually scaring the ayatollahs, the mullahs, pushing back them, rejecting them and saying that enough is enough. We want to have a secular, democratic country. You know, the girl actually jumped on the car right after the police arrested everyone with tear gas, trying to push them back. The girl was on the car chanting that we don't want Islamic Republic. We don't want Islamic Republic.

This is the true face of Iranian young people. They're leading the revolution right now.

You talked a little bit about this generational divide that can come up between this younger generation and an older one. But it's not just young people protesting in the street. And it's not just non-religious women this time. In fact, the New York Times reported that even religiously conservative Iranians have spoken up alongside liberal ones. And on social media, women who wear the hijab by choice have started solidarity campaigns questioning the harsh enforcement of the laws.

Is there a sense that the protests are gaining more widespread support across religious or political divides? Yeah, of course, it's not just young generation. Look, teachers came out and they called for national strike. University professors supported their students who got arrested and they called for national strike as well. So this is just the beginning. Of course, the young generation, especially women, are leading the revolution, the movement. But

those who were suffering from not having social freedom, not being paid their salaries for month and month,

those who have actually been witnessing that how the religious government send their own children to United States of America to live in their luxury life, but killing people inside Iran, making them suffer from poverty. A lot of people, nurses, workers, bus drivers, students, they're all united now. This is the first time actually we see a real unity among left and right, you know, among...

Different generation, the variety of people taking to the streets, it's just unbelievable. It's beautiful because they're all fed up with the Islamic Republic, you know. And athletes, member of football national team, for years and years, 2009,

They didn't quit their job. They didn't say that, "Okay, we don't want to be part of national team." Well-known actress, they never said that, "Okay, we're not going to be on TV. We're not going to be part of the cinema. We're going to be with the people of Iran." Now they are taking part. They're saying that we are with the people who get killed in the streets. We're not going to be proud to be part of national team. So celebrities, actresses, actresses, they are taking part in the process.

Athletes, they are showing their sympathy and solidarity. And most important than this, they're taking action in supporting the revolution. I call it a revolution. It doesn't mean that it's going to happen overnight. This is the beginning of an end. Well, and I think that's what a lot of people here wonder because they've seen...

seen uprisings in Iran before. Are the protests at this point aimed at a specific policy, like getting rid of mandatory hijab? Are they aimed at getting rid of morality peace? Or it's much bigger than that. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Iranians are not there in the streets facing guns and bullets to get rid of morality police or to change compulsory hijab laws. No. No.

This is a big lie. Clearly, they say that we want an end to this gender apartheid regime. They had enough. I mean, what's the point that a young generation get killed for just removing hijab? No, they want to have a normal life.

They want to be free to choose their own lifestyle. They don't want to see the mullahs making decisions over their bodies, what kind of music they can listen. We don't have freedom of expression. We don't have freedom of choice. We don't have freedom of religion. We don't have free media. We don't have even election. We call it selection. All who actually are in charge, they are murderers, they're killers, they're butchers. We don't want them.

Enough is enough. So that is why people are getting angry when they see the headline of New York Times or some of the media. It's about like abolishing morality police or people demand to get rid of compulsory job or it is people are in the streets just because of economy. It's not that.

Iranians deserve to have a secular democratic country and Iranians deserve to get rid of religious dictatorship. That's why they are in the streets right now. Well, and let's talk about the religious dictatorship's response to protests. The regime started by signaling some sympathy to sort of try to quell protests and then vowed to investigate Massa's death. But the crackdown's getting more severe. Does the government think they can just sort of get through this by repressing the demonstrations with violence? And it'll...

die out? First of all, what kind of investigation the Iranian regime referring? I mean, they put one killer in charge to do an investigation about the other killer.

That doesn't make sense to us who have experienced killings and murderings for four decades. Let me just give you one example. In 2019, in bloody November, 1,500 innocent people got killed for demanding a better life, greater freedom. They got killed.

So none of the killers were in court or were accountable so far. Why? Because the killers are themselves the Islamic Republic.

Our demand is not, OK, we want the Iranian regime to do an investigation. No, we want them to be gone. Look, one of the main slogans which breaks my heart, It means that we are going to fight until the day that we take our Iran back. We are ready to die, but we don't want to live with humiliation. That's the point.

I also want to understand, and for those listening who watched the Green uprising in 2009 and then 2017, more demonstrations, tell me a little bit more about what makes this one a different kind of demonstration. Honestly, this is a movement that started because of women's rights from the beginning. It was because of compulsory hijab. But immediately became a women's revolution supported by men. That's the difference.

In 2009, it was an election, was stolen by the regime, and people were demanding political freedom. But this time, women and men, shoulder to shoulder, they're burning the headscarf, which is one of the main visible symbol of religious dictatorship. So from the beginning, the first day of the protest, people were saying that we want to end the gender apartheid regime. In 2009, it took a little bit, like after a week,

So first people were like chanting, "Where is my vote?" Then people were chanting against the regime. But this is different from the first day people started to burn one of the main pillars of the Islamic Republic. You know why? Because when a woman burning headscarves, it sends a clear message to the Islamic Republic. It says that you wrote your ideology on our bodies, enough.

Iranian people, they made up their mind to say no to Islamic ideology. So this is a revolution against Islamism, against Islamic ideology. So that's the difference. The clear message in the street is like, we don't want

Islamic ideology. And I'm sure that this is going to spread in the Middle East. It's not going to just stay in Iran. Many women from Lebanon, Syria, Afghanistan are sending videos and showing their solidarity and saying that you inspired us. This is going to be a revolution in the Middle East against Islamic ideology. We have a common enemy. Our common enemy in the Middle East is the Islamic Republic, Taliban and ISIS. When we have a common enemy,

then we have to have a united Middle East against the Islamic ideology. But the protesters don't have a single leadership or strategy per se. How long do you think they can sustain this kind of decentralized fight?

Can I be honest with you? If the West just ignores the killings and murdering and do not take a strong action, the regime will continue killing people and they can push them back home. You know what? Right now, Iranians, they did their best.

to send their message to the rest of the world, that stop negotiating with our murderers. I mean, this is very simple. When the West continue negotiating with them, rewarding them, giving them billions of dollars, so of course this money is going to go to Revolutionary Guards to kill more people, to oppress more people.

So for us, now, this is the time that we want to see that, how the democratic countries are going to act, whether they're going to stand in the wrong side of the history and shaking the hand of our murderers, or they will make up their mind to stand in the right side of the history and support Iranian people in action, not with empty words. Otherwise,

Iranians can easily kill people. It sounds like you're saying this is fundamentally different in some very real ways and that there can indeed be revolution, but only if the West and the rest of the world takes notice and sits up and pays attention to exactly what's going on. We're going to talk more about that after a short break. We'll be right back. And every time something in the world happens like this,

I ask myself if I'm gonna fucking talk about it or not. But there are thousands of you out there and there are thousands watching at home. So today I have no fucking choice. Last week in the country of Iraq, a young girl called Masaah Mini was murdered for wearing outside of her hijab. And I am not gonna stand here and question someone's religion. I am gonna fucking fight for expression.

And I am going to fuck women of fucking Iran right now. The right to express yourself is your right and your right alone. And since last week.

To really understand the price that folks pay to do the kind of work that you do, let's talk about the efforts the regime has taken to silence you. In July of last year, four Iranian intelligence agents plotted to kidnap you from your home in Brooklyn and take you back to Iran via Venezuela. You spent the next few months in FBI safe houses. Apparently, it was the first publicized case on U.S. soil. And then just a few months ago, an Iranian operative tried to kill you. The man was arrested with a loaded AK-47 in his car.

And right now you are living in a safe house. Have you ever thought, while all this is going on, enough? Like, I can't do this anymore. Not at all. Not at all. Look, even now when you're talking about my life and my struggle, I was checking the news about Nika, 17-year-old. What is the difference between my life and her? She sacrificed her life to have freedom. Look, this is her face.

This is her face. I mean, I'm not scared of my life. The idea of kidnapping me or killing me is just to impose self-censorship on me, to scare me, to push me back in my isolation.

to scare my friends and families, to support me, to be with me. They want to make me feel miserable. They want to make me feel depressed. They want to break me. And they did everything to do this. But that didn't work. Look, they brought my sister on TV to denounce me publicly, to disown me publicly.

And that didn't work. I mean, I was watching my sister for 17 minutes saying bad things about me on TV. I cried. But it's gone. It's gone. They interrogated my 17-year-old mother. And they stopped her from calling me, sharing her love with me. They asked my mom to take me to Turkey. They were trying to kidnap me from Turkey. My brother exposed the plan.

They put my brother in jail for two years to punish him, to punish me. I mean, everything, everything they did.

Send someone to kill me, to kidnap me. Why? Why? Clearly because they are scared of me. They are scared of millions of women like me. So that actually gave me more hope. I never, never even had a moment to hesitate to fight back this small loss. I'm not scared of being killed. Believe me, I'm not. This is not scary for me. What scares me that I'm witnessing that the whole world do nothing.

in watching the Islamic Republic killing teenagers right now. This week, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei spoke to the public for the first time since the protests erupted across Iran. In his speech, he blamed the U.S. and Israel for designing the protests to destabilize his country. He also blamed, quote, traitorous Iranians abroad for helping them. And he singled you out by name, Masih. Why do you think that the Iranian government is so threatened by you to this day?

I embarrassed them. I empowered many Iranian women to video themselves, to make video of their civil disobedience while embarrassing the morality police, the hijab police. That's why they hate me. Look, I think they are so threatened not only by me, by women. They're scared of free women. But what is scared them specifically about me, it's my social media.

Look, I have more than 10 million followers. I mean, 10 million people who actually rely on social media. They send videos to me. I actually give them voice. I let the media, international media, understand what's going on in Iran. I mobilized women to fight back against compulsory hijab for eight years. The people were downplaying me, mocking me, denying me.

Threaten me. But what is going now? People are hearing us, listening us. So basically they were scared when they see that I use my social media to echo the voice of Iranians, you know?

And I don't have a weapon. I don't have guns and bullets. My voice and my words are threatening them. I think because our words and voice are more powerful than their weapons. So that is why they're really miserable. — Mahsi, my understanding is that you were raised in a very traditional conservative home in Iran. You were just two years old when the hijab became mandatory dress code for women in Iran. By seven years old—I did not realize it started that young— you were wearing the hijab at all times, even while sleeping.

How did this fire of resistance start within you? In a tiny village, definitely I didn't have any clue about feminism. I didn't have any clue about equality or fighting back against discrimination, not at all.

But from the age of seven, I was like watching my brother jumping in the river in a beautiful village. He was the one allowed to jump in a river, to go to stadium, to ride a bicycle, to sing, to play football with friends outside freely, showing his hair, everything.

But I was banned from all those simple activities just because of being a girl. You know? Yeah, as a young girl, I was just envying at my brother's freedom. That's all. And I did everything to first ruin his freedom because I wanted to make him an ally. And I couldn't do it.

Until the day I realized that if I ruin his freedom, then he's going to help me to be as free as he used to be. You know how? He was scared of darkness. And we didn't have inside bathroom. We had to use the outhouse. During the night, he was scared of the darkness. But during the day, he was the king of the village using all the...

freedom that he used to take it for granted. And then I told him that, "Oh, during the night, I'm not going to take you to the outhouse because you're scared of the darkness. I'm going to just leave you alone. But if you take me out with you, teach me how to ride a bicycle, you take me to the river, you take me to the stadium to play football, then I'm going to take you to the outhouse during the night." So you see, I used my power to ruin his freedom.

And he became an ally. And why I'm sharing this story, because now 100,000 men go to the stadium. If every single woman started their own revolution from their family's kitchen, from their own home, they can gain their freedom back.

I love that story about your brother and about women sparking revolutions and compounding it with the help of men and their families. Let's talk about your family, who you had to leave. You eventually had to flee Iran in 2009. Talk to me about leaving them and knowing the obstacles to ever coming home. It's not easy. I haven't seen my family for 13 years.

I miss my mother's face. I want to touch her. I want to hug her. But in the 21st century, I'm being away from my family. I'm not allowed to hug them just because of wanting to have freedom of choice, because of wanting to be free to express myself. And yeah, that's my crime. What would happen if you went back to Iran today? What does the regime do?

Of course they're going to kill me. If I go back to Iran, they're going to kill me. They're going to execute me because when Iranian regime executed journalist Ruho Lazzam, my pictures were everywhere saying that Masih Ali Nejad is next. I even saw a picture of myself being hanged on Iranian television. When Iranians actually were celebrating the Salman Rushdie's stabbing,

And they put the picture of Salman Rushdie in the front page of newspapers and saying that next is Massey. Killing, assassinating, murdering is in the DNA of the Islamic Republic, is in the nature of the Islamic Republic. Of course they want to kill me. Well, and we've talked a lot about the courage that it takes to speak out and the price for speaking out. Let's shift gears to those who stay a little bit quiet. You've taken issue with many Western feminists for not speaking.

saying something, for taking a stand when it's easier and maybe not so much when it comes to Iran. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, one of the first two Muslim women to serve in the U.S. Congress and the first woman to wear a hijab on the House floor, has been very critical in the past of U.S.-led sanctions that hurt Iran's economy. But she's been noticeably quiet about the protests. In fact, I don't think she said anything at all in support of the women of Iran. How do you understand that silence? —

It just makes me furious. You are coming from a country that you have experienced the misogyny. Then how come you call yourself a feminist and then you just show your sympathy with the Islamic Republic, not with the women of Iran?

So Ilhan Omar and many other Western female politicians or other politicians, they care about my body, my choice in the West, no? But when it comes to women of Iran, when they go to my beautiful country, they wear compulsory hijab and they say nothing. They say, this is your culture. This is an insult to a nation, you know?

Basically, by wearing a hijab, all those Western female politicians, they actually empowered Iranian regime to kill Mahsa. I'm not only angry with the Islamic Republic, I'm angry with all those Western female politicians, the high representative of the EU parliament. I'm angry with them as well, because they should be accountable, they should be responsible about

Now the death of Mahsa Amini, because when you wear a hijab, then you allow the Iranian regime saying that, look, even the higher representative of EU, they're wearing hijab. Who are you? How dare you to break this law?

So this is called hypocrisy. That's all. Yeah, let's talk a bit about their professed reasons for doing that. Help us understand. They'll say that this is a culture that we need to respect or that... No, they're lying. They're lying. They're lying. Look, before the revolution, women of Iran were allowed to choose what they wanted to wear. This is not Iranians' culture. This is the culture of misogynists. Forcing a seven-year-old girl to cover her hair is a culture?

It's not. It's the culture of Taliban. It's the culture of Islamic Republic. It's the culture of ISIS. But forget about that. Culture is flexible. Many years women sacrificed their lives to change bad cultures. Like racism was part of American cultures. They have sacrificed their life to change this, no?

But why when it comes to Islamic Republic, suddenly you say that we have to respect the bad culture, which is not part of our culture. They only care about like their political agenda. That's all I can say. When it comes to Saudi Arabia, they condemn it. When it comes to Yemen, they condemn it. Left and liberal are lost. They not stick with their own values. I kept hearing that when we talk about Democrats, it's all about women's rights.

I'm pleased that some of the Democrats are taking strong action, but most of them keep silent. Why? Your silence actually empowers our oppressors.

You're taking side by keeping silent. You're taking side. You're actually allowing our oppressors to kill us. And what do you think about their professed fear of stoking Islamophobia, which is frequently cited? I don't get this. Every single Western feminist who cares about Islamophobia, I invite them. I even support them. I even help them. I give them money to go and live in Iran or Afghanistan. I buy tickets for them.

to go and live under Sharia laws in Iran and Afghanistan and then after one year come back to America and say that, "Okay, you're causing Islamophobia." According to the Sharia law in Iran and Afghanistan, we are being banned from all our basic rights. And yet then you say that, "Don't talk about it, you cause Islamophobia."

Phobia is irrational fear. But my fear and the fear of millions of women in Iran and Afghanistan is rational. Of course, we are scared of Islamism. Of course, we are scared of being killed, being hanged, being lashed, being jailed for not practicing Sharia laws. Those who don't have fear of Islamic ideology, those who don't have any fear of being executed, I think there is something wrong with them.

Beyond the cultural posture of the West and Western feminists, I want to talk about where U.S. policy fits into all this. You said in interviews, shame on Biden for not supporting the women of Iran, instead continuing to try to reach a deal with the Islamic Republic on the nuclear deal. He has spoken out quicker than Obama, though, in 2009 in support of protesters. He has said he's trying to get Internet restored when the government shuts it off, that he's ramping up sanctions on the morality police. But you say it's not enough. Why? And what more should the U.S. do?

First of all, I think because of the pressure from Iranians, Biden actually learned that we don't need empty words. You know, thanks to Jake Sullivan, he actually gave me a call. We talked about the situation in Iran. He asked me that what kind of help we need. I was clear that right now the U.S. government should stop negotiating with the murderers.

Right now, the US government should help those who call for national strife. Right now, the US government can actually help Iranians to access internet.

And most important than this, the US government should recognize the opposition outside and inside Iran. Instead of just negotiating with the Iranian officials, they have to set a meeting with high-level oppositions who live inside Iran and saying that we don't want the Islamic Republic. We want to get rid of the Islamic Republic. By saying that, I'm not actually asking the US government to save Iranians. No.

Iranian people are brave enough to save themselves. But I want the U.S. government not to save the Islamic Republic the way that President Obama did. By the way, where is Obama? Where is Michelle Obama? For years and years, they've been saying that they care about women's rights. They care about human rights. This is your turn. Where are the campaigns? Bring our girls back. Now talk about your girls in Iran and Afghanistan. You know,

it would put pressure on Islamic Republic as well. Why do they keep quiet? Well, when you talk about asking Sullivan to stop negotiating, you're talking about what is a huge factor at play here, which is the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, commonly referred to as the Iran nuclear deal. And wrapped up in this is so much of the Obama legacy

And I think sort of a fictionalization of the Iranian counterpart and imagining that sort of these are people that we can negotiate with in good faith. Obviously, Trump removed this agreement and Biden would like to put it back in place. How realistic do you think it is that the negotiations stop?

No, but Jake Sullivan actually mentioned that they're going to stick with their own policy. But that doesn't mean we're not going to push them to listen to the true Iranian leaders within the society who are saying that we want the West to stop negotiating with the murderers. Instead, we want the U.S. government to ask it.

own allies to recall all their ambassadors, to kick out all the Iranian officials from the West, because basically they actually using this, the legitimacy that they get from the West

to oppress people in the streets. We don't get it that why Twitter, Facebook and Instagram still allowing the murderers, the ayatollahs, to enjoy freedom of speech on social media while the same murderers cut off internet and killing people. But let me tell you something, these savages who don't have any pity for its own people, they're not going to have any pity for the Western citizens. So basically we, the people of Iran, are risking our lives

not only fighting for ourselves, we are fighting for democracy to protect the democratic countries from Islamism, from Islamic ideology. So this is not too much to ask that stick with your own values. If we don't get united, if democratic countries do not get united to end Islamic terror, believe me, the democratic countries will suffer Islamism on their own land.

Look, Maduro, Putin, Khamenei, China, all the dictators are more united than democratic countries. That is shameful. And I want to tell you something that people who give advice to the US government, most of them have linked with the Islamic Republic.

They have sympathy with the Islamic Republic, with so-called reformists, which Iranian people clearly saying that this is the end for reformists and conservatives because Islamic Republic cannot be reformed. Islamic Republic is like Taliban.

I'm asking the U.S. government, if you want to know what's going on in Iran, just talk to the activists inside Iran. Talk to the true voice of Iranian people who are not scared to say that we want an end to this gender apartheid regime. Now, to argue charitably for the Biden administration and the desire to

negotiate with moderates or reformers on such a deal. The idea is we don't want Iran developing nuclear weapons. How do we square the idea of something like regime change with the real security threat to the world that a nuclear deal addresses? Look, I keep hearing that we're going to stick with our own policy because we don't want Iran to have nuclear. But look, for years and years, you have been ignored the activists from Russia saying that

Putin is a murderer, is a warmonger. You have been labeling many anti-Putin activists, calling them warmongers. Now, war is here in Europe, and now you see that who was the true warmonger? Putin himself, not those activists warning the Western countries, warning the democratic countries, warning the media, the left and liberal, telling them that do not give democratic title to Putin. Now we are in the same position.

We're warning you that Iran, the Islamic Republic is itself is a danger for Iran, for Iranian people. They only understand one language, language of pressure.

If the Western countries get united and do not bury human rights on their nuclear deal, then we can get there. But clearly, clearly you're not even stick with your own values. Like you're not even listening to the voice of Iranians telling you that our enemy is not America. It's not even sanctioned. Our enemies is the Islamic Republic. So basically we don't ask you much. We just want you to

to care about human rights, women's rights, like bipartisan issue. For Iranian regime doesn't matter whether you're Republican or Democrats. They're going to kill you anyway. They hate you anyway. So get united and care about human rights and women's rights like bipartisan issue. Do not say that we should separate human rights from nuclear deal. Cannot be separated. We are talking to murderers.

Well, and then on the other side of that is what about Israel, our only westernized ally in the Middle East that recognizes all these human rights? Aren't they under existential threat if there's a nuclear Iran? Yes. Look, right after I was the target of an assassination plot, right after Salman Rushdie was the target of an assassination plot, because of the fatwa which was issued by the supreme leader of Iran,

Right after that, a member of the Revolutionary Guard was given a visa by the U.S. government to be part of Ebrahim Raisi's delegation to address the General Assembly of the United Nations. I was shocked and I was telling myself that if it was the Israeli government, they would have

taking strong action. I mean, it's just shocking that the US government giving visa to the member of Revolutionary Guards, which shot down the Ukrainian airplane, which killed people in the street, which assassinated, I mean, many Western citizens and Iranian dissidents on the Western soil as well. So for me and millions of Iranians, our enemy is not Israel.

Our enemy is not America. And I remember in my childhood, I was told that I have to say "Death to Israel" at school as loud as the Tel Aviv can hear me. And millions of young girls, we were brainwashed to say "Death to America, burn the flag of America, burn the flag of Israel." But now Iranians are refusing to step on the flag of Israel and America, but they are chanting "Death to Islamic Republic."

So it's a clear message. People of Iran want to be united with America, with Israel, with Western countries because we deserve to be recognized, not the murderers. I mean, I don't get this. You recognize Ibrahim Raisi, but you don't recognize the

innocent political prisoners and civil society right now in the streets of Tehran risking their lives and saying that stop negotiating with the murderers of Iranian teenagers. Instead, recognize the voice of Iranians who say no to Islamic Republic. Does the nuclear deal prevent Iran from developing a nuclear program? Not at all. Many of the officials inside Iran, the member of the parliament, they announced that. But

As I said, if you stick with your values and get your allies, European allies, to put pressure on the Islamic Republic, we can achieve more. But if you just ignore your values and just bow to them, accept everything that they say, we're not going to get anything. Iran, Islamic Republic is dangerous right now for everyone.

Many Americans look at the U.S.'s recent history in Afghanistan, in Iraq, Libya, and would say, you know, those are places where our values have not been upheld in the end due to lack of political will and different policies. U.S. intervention has not gone well. What's different about this situation and an American influence in it? Why do you have faith in the U.S.'s ability to affect a positive change? Look, I don't have faith in the U.S. government. I have faith on Iranian people.

I always say that. I just want the U.S. government to understand that this is the battle that we should fight together because we are protecting democracy. We're not just fighting for ourselves in Iran. We are protecting America. I mean, you cannot be free. You cannot have freedom and democracy in the world if Islamic Republic is in power, if the Islamists

are in power. That's the point. I mean, I want the U.S. government to understand that. This is the right time to show solidarity with the freedom fighters, with democracy fighters in the region. These are the frontline freedom fighters which can actually help you to promote democracy

in the United States of America as well. In the exchange over the JCPOA, there was the idea of removing sanctions, and now sanctions have been put back. The Iranian economy has been crushed over the past few years. Corruption and economic mismanagement are rife. Iranians have been subject to inflation, food shortages, supply disruptions. How big of a role do you think that plays in Iranians taking to the street in protest?

Do you hear a single slogan against sanction? Do you hear a single slogan that people are saying that we want to have a deal? Do you hear a single slogan against the US government or Trump administration who actually said that we don't want to get a deal with this regime? When I say that, I'm sure that I'm going to be labeled by many left and liberals that look, Massey is pro-sanction, Massey is pro-war. No.

The Iranian regime is a true warmonger. Look, when Iranians were suffering from sanctions, the Iranian regime proudly sent the money to terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, to Bashar Assad, to Yemen. When Iranian people were suffering from sanctions, the Islamic Republic banned the corona vaccine for Iranians. They kicked out Doctors Without Borders.

So they don't care about the lives of Iranian people. When we were suffering from sanction, the Iranian regime increased the budget of 51 religious institutions to promote Sharia laws, to kill Mahsa Amini, to promote morality police, to promote revolutionary guards, to kill more protesters in the streets. For the regime in Iran, my God, when you actually offer them billions of dollars,

They feel more powerful to kill us, to oppress us. So basically Iranians are in the streets not because of sanctions, not now because of economy. They are in the streets because of corruption, because of mullahs, because of lies, lack of social freedom, because they see that how these mullahs are actually losing their money

to promote war in the region, to promote their ideology, to promote Islamism. That's all. Now Iranian people in the streets, if you ask them, what is your simple demand? Remove sanction or remove Islamic Republic? They would say remove Islamic Republic. And that's why they're risking their lives. And I remember that I was pro-deal. I remember that my hope was that Iran finally going to

come out from isolation because we don't want to be isolated. But I myself, coming from a poor family, I've been witnessing that the money, the benefit of the deal didn't go to poor people. The benefit of the deal went to the war in the region.

to all the terrorist organizations, to all the Revolutionary Guards, Morality Police, and 51 religious institutions. Nonetheless, the sanctions do make life harder for ordinary Iranians, which then makes them more inclined to protest and want regime change, correct? Of course. Do they become a means to an end? Look, now the reason that Iranian people are in the street is because Mahsa Amini got killed. Students who take to the streets right now

facing guns and bullets, they are scared of their own life. They don't know whether if they go to the street, they're going to be the next victim of hijab police. Now, clearly, Iranians are chanting, saying that we want freedom of choice, we want dignity, we want freedom of expression.

So, of course, sanction hurts people. But what hurts us more is the corruption, more laws, who are telling us in the 21st century what to wear. And we strongly believe that the same regime which doesn't allow us to choose what we put on our head, the same regime never going to allow us to control what's going on inside our head.

So that is why Iranian people are clear telling to the Western countries that when you give billions of dollars to Iranians because of the deal, they're going to use the money to kill us. Masih, final question. You want regime change. You think that this is the will of the Iranian people and you want something that reflects that for them. Who should lead Iran? What would a new political structure look like?

This is 21st century. We want a secular democratic country where religious is separated from politics. This revolution is against Islamism, is against the mix between religion and politics. So we deserve to have a country where we don't face hijab police industries. We deserve to have

The same freedom that you take it for granted here in the West. We deserve to have a government that doesn't kill people for their political views. We're fighting for this future. Just walking around, having our normal life, dancing, practicing our rights, hugging our brother and sister, loving each other.

My God, so simple. We just want to have a normal life. We don't want ISIS, Taliban and Islamic Republic make decision for us. A country that women can be treated like, you know, normal human being. So simple. That's my dream is to get rid of the Islamic Republic. And this is the dream of millions of Iranian people. Religious should go to private, to their houses, not making decision over our bodies.

Simple and beautiful and powerful. Masi, thank you so much for being here, for your voice, for amplifying other voices and for helping us to understand them. We really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for having me. And I'm going to invite you one day to my beautiful country, Iran, where you're not going to be forced to cover your beautiful hair. Would love it. Would love it.

Thanks for listening. And thanks so much to Masi Alinajad for being here today, for her voice and her courage. You can find her on Instagram or Twitter, where she shares the powerful videos and images from Iran that we talked about today. Please share this episode with your community. Have an honest conversation with your friends. And if you want to support Honestly, subscribe to Barry's newsletter at commonsense.news. I'm Mary Katherine Hamm. You can find me at mkhammer.substack.com or on my podcast, Getting Hammered. I'll see you again here soon.