Investigating January 6th: The Price Liz Cheney Paid
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I'm Barry Weiss, and this is Honestly. Today is January 6th, the anniversary of the attack on the Capitol. And that's what we're going to be talking about today. But for context, let's remember that 2020, the year leading up to that attack, was a year of political violence in America. Violent clashes between Seattle police and protesters lighting up the night sky. On the left, groups seized and held control of several city blocks in the middle of Seattle for nearly a month.

Spawning Seattle, bracing for more chaos. Other groups attacked a federal courthouse in Portland every night for more than 100 nights. Terrifying scenes like these now a nightly occurrence. Around the country, police stations were burned. In Louisville, Kentucky, crowds gathered outside of police and politicians' homes. They want Pippi!

We are occupying his neighborhood, occupying his street, and occupying his house. — where they threatened to punish them for crimes that they didn't commit. On the right, there was a plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan. Six men connected with a right-wing group are charged with attempting to carry out an elaborate plan to kidnap Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer for what they call treason. There were groups on the right, like the Proud Boys, who fought in the street with their equivalent groups on the left.

And of course, it was a big election year during a global pandemic. Officials around the country are trying to determine how to hold this fall's elections while keeping voters safe. As COVID measures cause many states to expand voting access with mail-in ballots and early voting. When you do all mail-in voting ballots

You're asking for fraud. President Donald Trump started to claim that a conspiracy was afoot. I'm not going to say which party does it, but thousands of votes are gathered and they come in and they're dumped in a location and then all of a sudden you lose elections if you think you're going to win because there's a lot of fraudulent voting going on in this country. And he wasn't subtle. Because the only way they can win

is by doing very bad things. He openly said the fraud and abuse will be an embarrassment to our country. And then he refused to say whether or not he would accept the results of the election. Will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferal of power after the election? Well, we're going to have to see what happens. You know that I've been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are a disaster.

But people are rioting. Do you commit to making sure that there's a peaceful transfer of power? We want to get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very peaceful—there won't be a transfer, frankly. There'll be a continuation. I think many have forgotten that on Election Day, the atmosphere was so tense that businesses across the country, especially in liberal cities like New York and San Francisco and Los Angeles—

They boarded up their windows out of fear that a President Trump victory could result in more riots. It's hard to imagine what we might have seen had Donald Trump won that day.

But he did not. Now looking at the president's race, right now there is no winner nationally. According to the latest count from NBC News, nominee Joe Biden is leading with 224 electoral votes. President Trump is at 213. A candidate, of course, needs 270 to win. And yet on election night, while the outcome was still too close to call. We were getting ready to win this election. Frankly, we did win this election.

Trump came out and claimed victory anyway. This is a fraud on the American public. This is an embarrassment to our country. And he said that any outcome to the contrary would be the result of cheating. A very sad group of people is trying to disenfranchise that group of people. And we won't stand for it. We will not stand for it.

Over the next few days, as more and more ballots were counted, and Joe Biden clearly pulled ahead to win the presidential election, Trump ramped up his claim that he was being cheated. This may be the most important speech I've ever heard.

I've ever made. President Trump is refusing to back down on his claims that the election was stolen from him. The president released a new video on Tuesday in which he said there was a plot to deny him a second term. We have in all swing states major infractions or outright fraud. He broke with decades of historical precedent and didn't concede the election that he had obviously lost.

The president's own attorney general, Bill Barr, says the Department of Justice has found no widespread fraud that would change the election result. As he continued to claim that he had been cheated... The evidence is overwhelming. ...his supporters around the country began taking to the streets to protest. These people are out of their election! Yeah!

The night before Congress would officially count the Electoral College votes, a rally was held in Washington, D.C. We did not have a free, fair, and transparent vote on the 3rd of November. Where Trump advisor Mike Flynn said that everyone knows Donald Trump really won the election. Everybody in this country knows who won the election on the 3rd.

won the election on the 3rd, Donald Trump. And he said that the American people cannot stand for a lie. The members of Congress, the members of the House of Representatives, those of you who are feeling weak tonight, those of you that don't have the moral fiber in your body, get some tonight because tomorrow we the people are going to be here and we want you to know that we will not stand for a lie.

Former Trump campaign advisor George Papadopoulos said that when it came to who would and who wouldn't stand up against the Democrats for cheating, the choice was clear. There are but two parties right now, traitors and patriots. You were either a traitor or a patriot. And both are exposing themselves right now. And then came January 6th. We must stop this deal.

And then we must ensure that such outrageous election fraud never happens again, can never be allowed to happen again. They've got the gallows set upside this Capitol building. It's time to start f***ing using them. Start making a list with all those names down and we start hunting them down one

Now, what did and didn't happen that day, what we should call it, how big a threat it was to American democracy, how it compares to other events in American history—

Who was responsible? These all remain highly debated subjects across every aspect of American politics. Few leaders, though, have been clearer about their answers to those questions. And few have paid a higher price than Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney. The election is over. That is the rule of law. That is our constitutional process.

Those who refuse to accept the rulings of our courts are at war with the Constitution. In a matter of weeks following January 6th, Representative Cheney went from being the highest-ranking Republican woman in Congress and an open supporter of much of President Trump's agenda...

to being shunned by her own party and stripped of much of her political power. I will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president's crusade to undermine our democracy. Figures on the left that once called Cheney a warmonger and a peddler of hate are now singing her praises. Mother Jones came out with an editorial last week calling her a hero,

Nancy Pelosi has called her a leader of great courage. Today, I talked to Representative Cheney about her decision to take such a strong stance against former President Trump, quite possibly at the expense of her political future. We talk about why she chose to serve as the vice chair of the special committee investigating the January 6th attacks, what she's learned about the events of that day, what she thinks of her Republican colleagues, the future of the GOP, and what's at stake for American democracy. Stay with us.

I was talking about what I did before.

Hey guys, Josh Hammer here, the host of America on Trial with Josh Hammer, a podcast for the First Podcast Network. Look, there are a lot of shows out there that are explaining the political news cycle, what's happening on the Hill, the this, the that.

There are no other shows that are cutting straight to the point when it comes to the unprecedented lawfare debilitating and affecting the 2024 presidential election. We do all of that every single day right here on America on Trial with Josh Hammer. Subscribe and download your episodes wherever you get your podcasts. It's America on Trial with Josh Hammer. Representative Cheney, thank you so much for being here. I'm wondering if you can take us back to Wednesday, January 6th, 2021, one year ago today.

Where were you that morning? Well, thank you, first of all, for having me on. I really appreciate the opportunity and I'm a fan of the podcast. So thank you.

On the morning of the 6th, I was on my way to the Capitol. We knew that obviously we were going to have the county electoral votes that day. And so I had been involved, obviously, in helping to get information to my Republican colleagues about what I believed was, you know, the constitutional requirement that we count the votes. I don't believe the Constitution provides for objections.

And at that time, I was the chairwoman of the House Republican Conference. And I provided a memo that I had worked on between Christmas and New Year's that went through each of the key states and the court cases.

There were a lot of claims being made that the courts had not actually heard any of the evidence in the cases. And so I really wanted to make sure people had the information that showed that the fraud claims were, in fact, not supported by evidence and that people could see what the judges had ruled in the key cases.

and had also been making the point that it's not the role of Congress under the Constitution to substitute our judgment for the outcome of the elections in the states and that we should not be objecting to the counting of electoral votes. And so we were getting ready for the debate that we knew was going to happen on the floor about those objections. So that morning, as you're gathering evidence to share with your Republican colleagues, you

There was a Save America rally near the White House. It started around 9 a.m. that morning. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome America's mayor, Rudy Giuliani. And that morning, Rudy Giuliani comes out. Hello, everyone. And he says that the Democrats and their allies have not allowed us to see one machine or one paper ballot.

Now, if they ran such a clean election, why wouldn't they make all the machines available immediately? The Democrats are hiding evidence that they really lost the election. Who hides evidence? Criminals hide evidence, not honest people. So over the next 10 days. And that in the next few days, as he said. A lot of them will go to jail.

It's likely that some Democrats will be arrested and sent to jail. And in one memorable quote, let's have trial by he called for so-called trial by combat. Shortly after Trump comes out for a speech. Media will not show the magnitude of this crowd. Even I, when I turned on today, I

And I saw thousands of people here, but you don't see hundreds of thousands of people behind you because they don't want to show up. And the speech lasts over an hour. And he says things like this. All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats, which is what they're doing, and stolen by the fake news media. That's what they do.

Emboldened radical left Democrats are stealing the election right now. We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn't happen. You don't concede when there's theft involved. We will never give up and we will never concede. You don't concede where there is theft involved. We will stop the steal. And he says, if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

Now, obviously, that is in direct contradiction to the kind of evidence you were preparing for your colleagues. But I'm curious if you were aware of what he was saying that morning in real time and what you made of it. I was certainly aware that he had been saying those kinds of things in the weeks and months leading up to January 6th.

And, you know, as I was on the floor of the House and then in the cloakroom preparing my own remarks because I had planned to speak against the objections, I got a phone call from my dad who had been watching the remarks on the Ellipse and who told me that the former president had, you know, mentioned me by name specifically. And that, you know, led to a discussion about

You know, what are the security implications of that? Should it have any impact at all on my decision to speak in support of the counting of the votes? And we decided not.

You know, as we talked it through, that it couldn't impact that, that it was a constitutional duty and responsibility to make sure that the votes were counted and to speak for what I believe is is a very clear constitutional point. Now, I remember what he said about you. He said. And we got to get rid of the weak Congress people, the ones that aren't any good. The Liz Cheney's of the world. We got to get rid of them. We got to get rid. You know, she never wants a soldier brought home.

We got to get rid of the weak Congress people, the ones that aren't any good, the Liz Cheney's of the world. We got to get rid of them. When your dad called you to talk about what Trump has said, do you remember specifically what his concerns were, what he said to you? Did he understand that as a threat? You know, I think that it clearly had the potential to cause additional security concerns and it

You know, I think it was it was very important, though, that the decision that we made together really, you know, my view and he supported this was you cannot let a threat like that stop you from doing what you know is right with respect to to the duties of Congress and counting electoral votes.

So take me a little bit deeper inside the Capitol into the conversations that are happening with you and your Republican colleagues as this rally is playing out. You know, what's going on with party leaders like you and Mitch McConnell, but also the

other figures in the party, people like Senator Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley. What's the conversation that's happening as the president and his allies are suggesting that the process that you are participating in inside is somehow fraudulent? I did not have a direct conversation with either Senator Cruz or Senator Hawley. Of course,

This whole series of issues had been playing out for a number of weeks before we got to the 6th when, you know, Senator Hawley, I think, was the first senator who announced that he would join the objections.

And as soon as one senator joined, that meant that we were going to divide back up into our chambers and have a two hour debate. And then Senator Cruz came up with this notion that we could somehow just postpone, which is completely extra constitutional. The idea that you would pause and

the counting of electoral votes, a constitutional procedure that you would have some kind of an audit once all of these states had certified the outcome of the election in their states according to their state law. Once those challenges in state and federal court had been brought and the campaign, the Trump campaign had lost something like 60 of 61 votes,

It was a very dangerous proposal and, you know, could very easily have put us into territory where we got to the inauguration and there was not a president. And I think that Senator Cruz knew exactly what he was doing. I think that Senator Cruz is somebody who knows what the Constitution calls for, knows what his duties and obligations are, and was willing, frankly, to set that aside. And why? Why?

You know, I think you will have to ask him, but I think it's...

It's inexcusable. You know, we all are in positions of public trust. We all swear an oath to the Constitution. And the idea that someone was going to suggest something that would put us into territory where January 20th might come and we might not have counted the votes is simply an untenable situation. And again, he knows that. So I think that was certainly of concern.

You know, I think on the House side, we ended up with something like 140 Republicans who objected to different states' electoral votes. But it was a long discussion, an ongoing discussion among members. And some members, you know, had very legitimate questions about what is the role of Congress and is there a place for an objection there.

So there were some members who I think their motives were honorable, they were acting in good faith, and there were others who weren't. And of course, we know we saw what happened as the count was unfolding with the attack on the Capitol. As the day is unfolding, right, you have the president's speech and thousands of his supporters start marching toward the Capitol. And here's really where the chaos begins.

He's got a gun! Some of the crowd gets through security and police barriers and into the building. And eventually, they make their way into the well of the Senate chamber. Others make it into the offices of lawmakers, including the office of the Speaker of the House. What do you remember from those moments?

Well, I was on the floor of the House and I was sitting on the aisle, on the center aisle, just on the Republican side. And, you know, there are several sort of key moments that I remember. You know, one was obviously we saw the speaker evacuated from the chamber and we got periodic reports from a Capitol Police officer who went up and into the chair and explained to us that

different updates. So at one point, he told us that the mob had made its way through the rotunda. He told us that tear gas had been released in the rotunda. They instructed us to don our gas masks. And I think probably most members, myself included, were not even aware that there were gas masks under the chairs. At one point, he told us that the backs of the chairs were bulletproof.

and that we should be aware of that. And it was surreal. It was a situation where you could not imagine, I certainly could not imagine that this was happening. You know, I'm on the floor of the House of Representatives inside the United States Capitol, and, you know, there eventually was a mob pounding on the doors. And, you know, I remember that I was angry about

I remember Jamie Raskin, Congressman from Maryland, showed me on his phone. He was getting a report that there was a Confederate flag flying inside the Capitol. And I couldn't believe that, you know, the Capitol building, which is the

the heart of our republic was being assaulted in this way and that there was violence that was being used to get us to stop counting electoral votes. That's the kind of thing that happens in other countries. That's not the kind of thing that happens in the United States of America. And I was angry that we had gotten to the point where the peaceful transition of power was being threatened.

It was really, you know, something that you do not imagine is ever going to happen. And obviously something we have to make sure never happens again. While all of this was happening and you're getting these updates from Capitol Police, did you or any of your colleagues or anyone close to you try and reach out to President Trump or the people around him?

Well, I didn't. I know it has been public that a number of my colleagues did. Shortly after these announcements, they evacuated the chamber. And so we were taken to a room where we spent the afternoon. And when we got to the site where we were going to spend the afternoon, I was the most senior Republican who had not been evacuated. And my Democratic counterpart, Hakeem Jeffries, said,

the most senior Democrat, was also in the same room. And so Hakeem and I really spent the afternoon, you know, up on the dais in the front of the room, giving people updates, you know, working to bring people together to urge that we get back to counting the votes quickly and sort of tracking what was happening. And, you know, that was really sort of my focus for that afternoon.

A week after the riots and the violence of that day, you were one of just 10 Republicans who voted to impeach Trump. And you put out a statement making that announcement. I want to read a little part of it back to you.

Much more will become clear in coming days and weeks, but what we know now is enough. The President of the United States summoned this mob, assembled this mob, and lit the flame of this attack. Everything that followed was his doing. None of this would have happened without the President. The President could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence. He did not. There has never been a greater betrayal by a President of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution.

Now, what's striking about that statement, of course, is that it comes from you. We both know that there were a lot of people, conservatives and longtime members of the Republican Party, who either left the party over Trump or made their whole M.O. about being never Trump. But you were not one of those people. You don't legislatively...

You voted in line with Trump more than 90% of the time. Publicly, you weren't afraid to defend the president. In 2020, The Atlantic called you a true Trump loyalist. The New York Times said that you and Rand Paul were in a competition over who could be Trumpier. And obviously it could go on here. The question is, how does that person...

become the person that accuses the president of the greatest betrayal of the office and of the Constitution in history? Explain that shift to us. Well, I think that it all goes to

His conduct after the election and then what happened, what he did on the 6th. And, you know, I think it really is critical for all of us as Americans to recognize that there comes a moment when...

party has to take a back seat in terms of, you know, our responsibility. And as you point out, I am a conservative Republican. I believe in those policies for this country. But no president can cross the line Donald Trump did. And it doesn't matter what party that president belongs to.

And I guess those of us in the Republican Party have a particular duty and responsibility. When the president does what he did in terms of mobilizing the mob, in terms of refusing to take immediate action to tell people to go home, those are the kinds of things that are clear derelictions of duty and clearly impeachable offenses. So from my perspective, it was very much based upon

what happened that day and the role that he played. And as I said, you know, at the time, I knew we did not know everything, but I knew what we knew at that moment was enough. It was very clearly impeachable activity. At the time that you made that stand against the president, you were the third highest ranking member of the Republican Party. And then things started to change for you.

Within weeks, the Wyoming Republican Party formally censured you. A few months after that, House Republicans voted to remove you from your leadership position as conference chair. Clearly, this position you'd taken was costing you. And at that time, you said this, the GOP is at a turning point. History is watching us. And you went on and made a pretty incredible speech. God has blessed America, Mr. Speaker.

But our freedom only survives if we protect it. If we honor our oaths taken before God in this chamber to support and defend the Constitution. If we recognize threats to freedom when they arise. Today we face a threat America has never seen before. A former president who provoked a violent attack on this Capitol in an effort to steal the election

has resumed his aggressive effort to convince Americans that the election was stolen from him. He risks inciting further violence. Millions of Americans have been misled by the former president. They have heard only his words, but not the truth, as he continues to undermine our democratic process, sowing seeds of doubt about whether democracy really works at all.

I am a conservative Republican, and the most conservative of conservative principles is reverence for the rule of law. The Electoral College has voted. When you were making that speech, did it feel like you were crossing a Rubicon and that your future in politics was at stake? Or was politics not really on your mind that day, and maybe it was history? Well, I think that...

At each moment, in terms of sort of the ways that we have dealt with January 6th, for me, it has been a question about what is the right thing to do. And there's been real clarity about what is the right thing to do. And I was very aware that our party was embracing these lies and that

The events of January 6th, which had been so clear to me in terms of the line that can't be crossed, were not being rejected. The president...

who had mobilized that crowd, had sent them to march on the Capitol, had failed to tell them to go home once the violence was underway, that that person was being embraced by the Republican Party. People were looking away from what happened. And so what I was doing was really laying out

sort of the very critical moment and choice for us as Republicans, which is if you if you want to be in a position where you have a strong party that's based on fundamental principles, you cannot embrace what happened on the 6th. You can't embrace the lies about the election and you can't embrace the president who was at the heart of all of that.

And so I think, you know, that that's really been and was at that moment what I was thinking about. And I think, you know, those things are still true. And I think, unfortunately, the party has not gone in a better direction since then. And and I think that's it's very dangerous development both for the party and also for the country.

You say that what happened that day and the line being crossed was so obvious and so clear. And I think that too. But why are you one of the only ones in your party or maybe one of the only people in such a position of authority who sees this? Why is this unique? Yeah, I mean, I suppose I don't know the answer to that. I think that...

We clearly have a situation where elected officials have to make a decision about whether we are bystanders or leaders. And in too many cases, unfortunately, in my own party, our elected leaders have decided that

There'll be bystanders at best. We have too many people who are sort of saying, well, if we ignore the former president, he'll go away. If we ignore what happened on the 6th, then we can just all move past it.

The problem is he continues to say the things that he knows caused violence that day. He continues to make these assertions that somehow the violence was justified, which is what he's saying when he says November 3rd was the insurrection and January 6th was simply a protest.

And when leaders of my party either embrace him or refuse to confront the truth of what happened, then the danger increases. The danger that people will think that it's an acceptable tool in our political discourse, you know, that violence is somehow an acceptable tool, or frankly, that the election was stolen. I mean, that big lie is at the heart of

of so much of this. And I think, you know, that's another place where, where voters deserve to know the truth and people who are elected need to remember that, you know, our role is not to sort of be standing on the sidelines watching as things go down such a dangerous path. Our role is to try to stop it and to try to

make sure people understand the truth of what happened and the truth of what we know he's capable of, what we know he will do again if he is in a position to do so. I want to get back to what this all says about the future of the GOP and of the conservative movement, but let's stick for a minute on the thing you just said, which is the truth of what happened. There's a lot of

muddiness around the question of what that day was and what it wasn't. So it's been a year since that day, and you're now on the House Select Committee to investigate the January 6th attack. You have a meeting shortly for that committee. So briefly, what has the special committee learned that we didn't know back then about the events of January 6th?

Well, we've learned so much in terms of nearly every aspect of the effort by former President Trump to overturn the results of the election to stay in power.

And there are very many different aspects to that. Some of them have to do with the planning for what happened that day. Some of them have to do with the financing. Some of them have to do with the efforts that were underway to pressure local officials, to pressure Vice President Pence. There are, you know, very many elements to what was happening and what was going on. And

We've had scores of people come to the committee, people who have knowledge about some aspect of what was going on, who want to share their information with us. We've obviously issued subpoenas. We're engaged in litigation. We've watched former President Trump try

try to hide, he continues to try to hide behind false claims of executive privilege. And we're in court litigating those. You know, we've learned a lot about when you think about the fact that the person who was advising the president about his legal options that day, John Eastman, has taken the fifth.

When you think about the fact that Jeffrey Clark, whom the president intended to appoint as attorney general, has told the committee he'll take the fifth. People who were at the heart of the planning for that day taking the fifth, which means that they won't answer the committee's questions because they fear criminal prosecution, because they will implicate themselves. That's a very serious thing. So I think that

There's not an area of the investigation in which we have not learned new things. And we will continue to pursue both people who are coming to us voluntarily and also in cases where we have to issuing subpoenas for testimony and the production of documents. And we're looking very closely at

what kind of legislative changes might be needed. And we're also committed to making sure that this is a transparent process in terms of the American people getting the truth. It sounds like what you're saying is that this was, from all of the evidence that's been gathered, coordinated and intentional. And you obviously know that lots of people in your party and lots of people in the country are skeptical about that.

They're skeptical about whether or not you and others in Congress are creating a mountain out of a molehill. You're a lawyer. Can you make the best argument to skeptics out there that this is as big a deal as you and others insist that it is? Well, I would say several things. I would say, first of all, you know, one of the issues that the committee will certainly look at in an area where we're looking at whether we need additional legislation is

has to do with, you know, whether by his action or his inaction, the president of the United States attempted to obstruct or interfere with the county electoral votes. You know, there clearly are some criminal statutes that have been discussed publicly. There is also an element of the duty of the president. And what we've learned is that

how fragile our institutions are if you have a president who does not operate in good faith to protect them. And, you know, a president who won't protect the other branches of government, who would not tell his supporters to go home while they were attacking the Capitol, who tweeted out that his vice president didn't lack the courage to do what was necessary while the mob was hunting for the vice president.

who was in the Capitol with his family. I mean, those are the things that I think there's no question that the American people deserve to understand what happened and deserve to understand who was responsible and deserve to know minute by minute what was going on in the West Wing that day,

what was going on in the Capitol that day, why we got to a point in this nation where, you know, the president of the United States, while the violent assault was happening and he wasn't telling people to leave, to go home, you know, he made at least one phone call to a senator telling them to please try to delay some more. So it's a lesson for us all in how important

the good faith of elected officials is. And, and there's a, an inscription that's very famous. It's over the fireplace in the dining room in the white house. And it's a letter John Adams wrote to Abigail. And the inscription is part of it says may none, but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof. And that really, I think we've seen how important that is that, that

You know, you cannot entrust the security of the Republic to someone who is going to put his own interests ahead of that. But there's a distinction obviously between the duty of a president and the kind of behavior and character we should all rightly expect from someone holding that office and the law. And I think a lot of people are wondering, obviously, like Trump's boorishness, his, I mean, that was all on full display for years.

January 6th being only one incident of that. But I think a lot of people are wondering if the president actually broke the law. Well, I think that that's certainly a question that, you know, ultimately the Justice Department will be in a position to make that assessment.

And if you look at some of the prosecutions that have happened so far of some of the people who attacked the Capitol, you know, the judges have been clear that the activities of that day to try to delay the counting of electoral votes, you know, are activities that could be prosecuted under the statute that we were just talking about that.

attempting to impede an official proceeding of Congress is in fact a felony and understanding, you know, what the elements of that are is, is important. You know, Congress is obviously not, not a law enforcement branch, not the law enforcement branch. Uh, but certainly, you know, our investigation will, we'll look at these issues if, if,

as in any investigation, if there's criminal activity that we determine happened, that we uncover, certainly, you know, that we'll make a decision about that. But, you know, I would imagine we'll refer that to the Justice Department. But we are also dealing here with, you know, large constitutional issues about the role of the executive and the role of Congress. And, you know, we never before had to address an issue specifically

Of a president who, you know, was was willing to sort of blow through all the guardrails of democracy. And how do we protect ourselves in the future? Those are all all critical questions in terms of the future health and survival, frankly, of the republic.

There was a lot of noise in the days following January 6th and certainly in the year that's followed about what the word was for what happened that day. Some called it a coup, and that was sort of the consensus media word early on. Others called it an insurrection. Joe Biden called it the worst attack on our democracy since the Civil War. What do you call it? And do you agree with Biden's assessment? It was insane.

And certainly the worst attack on our democracy since the Civil War. I think that's right. It was, as I said, when I voted to impeach, you know, the gravest violation of his oath of office and his oath to the United States of any president in the history of the nation was

And so I think when you look at what was happening, the violence itself obviously was horrific. What led up to it as well, you know, when you listen to the recording of former President Trump pressuring Georgia Secretary of State Raffensperger to, quote, find him some votes. So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 people.

votes, which is one more that we have. So tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election and it's not fair to take it away from us like this. And it's going to be very costly. You know, all along, there were actions that were at odds with the rule of law and, you know, at odds with the constitutional duties of a president, you know, as the chief executive of

And as the person who's charged with standing the Constitution and ensuring that the laws are faithfully executed. So I think, you know, it's hard to overstate the seriousness of it. Here's, I guess, what I'm trying to parse out. There's part of me that I think has gotten used to living in a world where everything is hyperbole.

that is just constantly coming from politicians and the press. You know, the New York Times has an editorial this week telling me that every single day is January 6th. Cori Bush is trying to tell me that the January 6th attack was more evidence that America is a white supremacist nation. So I think reflexively,

when people hear that this mob, which was damnable in every way, was, as Senator Chuck Schumer put it, akin to Pearl Harbor, that feels a little too far, feels a little disrespectful to history. Now, you are not someone who is given to hyperbole. So when you were saying to me, this is the worst attack on our democracy since the Civil War,

I really want to press you to make that case for us because I think it's very important that we get on the same page about why you're saying that. Yeah, I think it is important. I would say a few things. One is that there is no question that there were people who came to the rally on January 6th

who were simply exercising their First Amendment rights, people who came because they believed what President Trump was telling them, people who came because they wanted to show support for President Trump or for his policies. And they came to the rally with good intentions.

And I think that it is important not to suggest that every Republican or every Trump supporter was involved in the violent assault on the Capitol or was involved in the efforts to overturn the election. I think, though, it's also important to recognize the extent to which, you know, the peaceful transition of power

is at the heart of our democracy and of our constitutional republic. And the rule of law is the foundation for our freedom. And when you have an election and you have a constitutional process and a process in each state for

the candidates to challenge the outcome of the election. If the candidates believe there's been fraud, then they go to court and they seek relief from the courts. And the judges rule, and the judges rule based on the evidence. The judges rule based on the extent to which the cases that are being brought involve sufficient evidence for the relief that the parties are seeking. And in this circumstance,

President Trump did that, and he had every right to do that. He had every right to go to court, as he did, as others did on his behalf, and to bring challenges. But he lost in all of those cases. And I think it's really important for people to realize that.

many of the cases in which he lost were rulings by judges he had appointed and judges who said things like, you know, the evidence that you have presented is completely insufficient for the relief that you seek. You know, you're asking us to throw out the votes of millions of people and the evidence that you're bringing forward just simply insufficient or there's no evidence at all. And so I think that

taking a big step back and recognizing how important the rule of law is and the extent to which certainly you can say you disagree with rulings of the courts. There's no question. I think the Supreme Court got it wrong on Obamacare. But you can't ignore the rulings of the courts. And that's what President Trump did. And so when you have a president who does that, that is what causes such significant peril.

And I think you're right. The extent to which we have hyperbole and toxicity that's become far too much part of our political discourse is not healthy for the country.

But there's got to be a moment where you say, we won't go across that line, you know, the line of not having a peaceful transition of power, the line of attempting to stay in office when you've lost an election. If we let that happen, then it puts at risk all of the other foundations of our freedoms. After the break, what Representative Cheney thinks about Tucker Carlson calling her delusional. That's next.

There's a narrative on the right that is not relegated to the fringe that has made its way into the mainstream that goes like this. What happened on January 6th was bad. It was embarrassing. It was terrible. But in the end, it was a nothing burger. It was a disorganized riot that had far less of an effect than did the riots of the summer of 2020 in which police precincts and federal buildings were burned down. And by the way, those were overlooked by the same politicians now so concerned about democratic norms.

And some people on the right go further than that. They argue that the events of that day were a sort of false flag operation driven in part by the FBI in order to discredit Trump supporters. And they point out that many of the people who showed up to protest were denied their due process. And they call the committee that you chair a show trial. What do you make of the fact that these are not fringe beliefs in a lot of circles on the right? They're popular. And they're popular among people that

were sort of your people until quite recently. There are several different worldviews you described there, and I think it's important to address each of them. So with respect to the people who say, look, it was a terrible day, but ultimately it wasn't that big a deal or ultimately it didn't succeed. You know, one of the things that I think people really have to recognize is

unbelievably lucky we were that, first of all, you had Republican officials in key places in state governments. You had Vice President Pence in the position he was in. You had a handful of elected officials who stood up to the pressure from President Trump.

and did their duty and refused to find votes for him or refused in the case of Vice President Pence to simply reject electoral slates that had been certified. So it was the people who defended the institutions. And that really matters when we're thinking about elections. It was also the

police officers, the Capitol police officers, the Metropolitan police officers who defended the Capitol. And I think in particular about those who fought

at the tunnel who fought for hours, very intense combat, hand-to-hand combat, and prevented an additional breach of the Capitol that would have had thousands more people inside the building that day. And it's because of them that the institutions held, and we were able to get back and count the votes. So I think that it is interesting

inconsistent with the facts and irresponsible from the perspective of sort of history and responsibility to dismiss what happened and to see, to, to, to act as though our institutions are self-sustaining because they're not, it takes, takes us, it takes people to do that. Those who say it's a false flag,

It is the same sort of garbage as the people who say that 9-11 was an inside job. And I think it's really unfortunate that there are networks that allow, that make themselves available as platforms for people to make those claims because they're not true and they're dangerous claims.

Let's talk a little bit about the future of the Republican Party and where you fit into it. Tucker Carlson recently said, Liz Cheney is delusional.

She's living on another planet. Liz Cheney is delusional. She doesn't live in reality. Josh Hawley said you were spiraling. I just think that she's out of step with Republican voters. And, you know, I'm not one of her voters, so that'll be their choice to make. Ted Cruz, of course, has accused you of TDS, Trump derangement syndrome, and becoming a Democrat. She hates Donald Trump so much that it just has overridden everything in her system. She's lashing out.

at Trump, at Republicans, at everything. She's become a Democrat. And it's sad to watch what has happened. It is Trump derangement syndrome. And Kevin McCarthy, who had originally joined you in condemning Trump's actions on January 6th. I think she's got real problems. I've had it with her. I've lost confidence. Said that he's lost confidence in you and that he's had it with you. Do you think that those people represent the Republican Party? I...

I don't understand how any of the people that you've mentioned, I mean, I appreciate you reading those. I hadn't actually heard all of those. So thanks for sharing those. But I don't, I don't understand how those people, frankly, you know, look themselves in the mirror. You know, what we're dealing with here is a situation where

We had an assault on the Capitol and we need to understand what happened and we need to make sure the people who did it are held accountable. And to be in a situation where you're unwilling to get to the bottom of what happened, where you're trying to obstruct the investigation, where you're rejecting the importance of an investigation or, you know, frankly, in the case of the people that you mentioned embracing the former president, you

My view is that the Republican Party is a party that's based on conservative principles. And I think those principles are the right ones for the country. I think that we are in a terrible spot from a policy perspective when you've got Joe Biden in the White House. I think his national security policy is not good for the country. I think his economic policy is leading to inflation.

and a massive expansion of the size of the federal government. I think that his energy and environmental policies are misguided and really bad for the people of Wyoming. So you've got people on the far left of the Democratic Party who are self-avowed socialists. And

who espouse a set of policies and principles we know don't work, have been tried in countries around the world, and are really bad for the country. And so the country's got to have a Republican Party that voters will look to as a party that is espousing substance and policy and ideas, a party that's got a foundation of truth. I think it's a party that needs to stand for strong national defense.

low taxes and limited government. I think that those are the policies we have to be able to espouse for the nation. As long as our party is instead acting more like a cult of personality around Donald Trump, we aren't in a position that we've got to be in to lead the country. And so I think

I think we clearly have got to get back to that substance. And I think that goes to your previous question too, which is,

you know, the country faces really big challenges right now, very serious ones. And, you know, setting aside the issues we're dealing with with respect to January 6th, the national security threat from China and what we're seeing from Russia and what we're watching happen around the world in terms of nuclear proliferation and cyber attacks, you know, what we're seeing happen domestically, all of those issues are

from an economic perspective, for example, require serious solutions. And we need serious people, Democrats and Republicans, who will be able to say, look, let's debate the issues. Let's have really vigorous policy debates.

You know, I'm going to make sure I'm as prepared as possible to defend what I believe and what I'm going to fight for. And people on the other side should do the same. And let's let's have these debates on policy and come to conclusion and solutions. Let's incentivize those people and reject.

the voices on the fringe in both parties. And look, I think right now in the Republican Party, especially in the House, in the Republican conference, you know, Leader McCarthy is embracing and enabling and supporting members who have espoused anti-Semitic views, members who've espoused white supremacist views.

And those are views that shouldn't have any place in our discourse. When we see anti-Semitism, you know, from people like Ilhan Omar, it has to be rejected immediately. And when we see things like white supremacy from people like Paul Gosar, that's got to be rejected immediately, too. We have to be able to say, no matter how big our tent is as a party, those views are outside of it. And we need to get back to substance. And I think that's a large part of

of the challenge, but also where the solution lies here. What is their game plan? How do you understand their motivation? Like the people that are succumbing to that hate or not condemning it? Is this just...

kind of the most craven and cynical version of this phenomenon that's happening all over the culture where people believe one thing in their hearts and say that thing in the privacy of their own home. And they know what they're saying out loud and in public is sort of a lie and just really a cave or a sop to their political tribe and a way of sort of boosting their base. But they know that it's wrong.

Like, do you do you think that the people who we're talking about here know that they're doing something wrong or that they're actually true believers in what they're selling? I think that there are a very small number of Republicans who actually believe that the

January 6th, you know, was, as one of my colleagues said, just a day of tourism for tourists. There are very few who really believe those things. I guess one thing that is very much a phenomenon in my own life is there are people who perform a certain kind of worldview in politics online and in public. And privately, they'll say to me,

I really agree with you. Or I really agree with XYZ thing that is commonsensical, but I know I'll get crushed for it if I say it out loud. And so I don't. There's a phenomenon basically of a very large closetedness in American political life right now. I've experienced it more from the left and among liberal circles because that's where I live and that's where I've spent most of my career. And I guess I'm curious about the extent to which you've experienced that

in conservative circles and specifically among your Republican colleagues? Like, are there people who you hear from in private who sort of cheer you on or pat you on the back and then say a totally different thing when they're in front of a television camera? Oh, yes, absolutely. And, um,

And I think that there are different reasons for it. And, you know, well, I think, first of all, there is for some, and certainly there was around impeachment, a concern about security. And I think that in a way we've become so accustomed to that in the last year or so. But that's a very stunning thing. You know, if you have members of Congress who will say, look, I would like to be able to vote

you know, a certain way, but I am afraid if I do that, I might be putting my family at risk. That, that's a, an element of American politics that we have certainly not seen in, you know, probably since the civil war. Um,

I think you also have people certainly who will, you know, say privately, obviously, you're right. Obviously, this is terrible. Obviously, this shouldn't have been done. You know, but I won't get reelected if I say that. And the Trump supporters are too strong. And so I can't publicly speak out against what happened.

And, you know, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Well, right. What do you say to those people when they say that to you? That I have to pay lip service, otherwise I'm going to lose the election.

I mean, it depends who it is, but certainly, you know, the point that that I make and certainly, you know, you can go to the other nine Republicans who voted to impeach President Trump and the points that they they made at the time to, you know, look, we are we are elected not just to sit in these offices. And when you are elected and when you take an oath, it brings an obligation and a duty with it.

So you don't have a choice to say, well, I'm going to look the other way in light of something of this nature, of something that happened like this. And secondly, I really I think there is a big element of people have to lead and realize you can't stand by.

That if you don't speak out against the lie, then you are enabling the liar. And if you don't speak out when something like this happens, then you're complicit. And I think it's really unfortunate and perilous.

set of circumstances right now. But it is the case that, you know, if you look at something like the impeachment vote, I'm confident if that had been a secret ballot, there would have been far, far more votes, obviously, in favor of impeachment. So, Representative Cheney, last question here.

And it's a question about trust. And it's a question I've been thinking about so much over the past few years, which is how do you rebuild trust once trust is demolished? And I'm thinking here not just of the election, but also of our public health institutions, also our media and just so many things that have been

degraded and trashed so thoroughly over the past few years. And that has to do with Trump and Trumpism, but it has to do with a lot of other phenomenon as well. So how do you think about your role in rebuilding trust as a lawmaker? And is there a way to put back together what has so clearly been shattered in pieces? Yeah, I think that's a really, really important question. And

I think that it comes in different pieces. Some of it is certainly political. Some of it is cultural, as you've described. But I think some of it goes back to incentivizing seriousness. And when I talk to young people all over the country and, you know, all across Wyoming, I mean, that is,

That has been something surprising to me about the last year and really hopeful for me about the last year. The number of young people who will come up to me and say things like, you know, look, I'm not a conservative. I don't share a lot of your policy views.

But I want to stand with you and fight for the Constitution and fight for the country and the democracy. And I do believe that some of these solutions are going to depend upon young people. Some of the solutions involve things like what are we doing about social media? What are we doing about...

social media companies that use algorithms that drive people into more and more extreme places? And how are we handling sort of the world of cyberspace and cybersecurity? And I think there's some of that as a generational issue that is going to fall to people in your generation and people in my kids' generation to come to solutions. But I also, I think...

You certainly have in the Republican Party a number of people who've been elected to the House who look at how Trump operated and they think that's the recipe for success. And it is vitriolic and it is it's toxic and it's not substantive. And we need serious people engaged in the republic and engaged in the functioning of the republic. And and I think that's about trust.

Also, you know, part of it is growing up in the family that I grew up in and watching my dad's career. And, you know, I never have bought into this idea, obviously, that, you know, all politicians are untrustworthy or all politicians are hypocrites or.

I believe we're really blessed that we get to live in a country where we get to participate in the government and decide who's going to lead us and decide what our laws look like. And I think that that's a really honorable endeavor to be engaged in. And we really do need to encourage people to be involved who are going to take it seriously.

and begin to rebuild trust that way. You know, I think of, for example, a number of the women I serve with on the Armed Services Committee who are relatively junior members of the committee, you know, a number of them are Democrats. And they are people who, I might not agree with them on a number of policy issues, but they're serious and they're taking it seriously. And I think those are the kinds of

people that we need to incentivize. Obviously, I'd like those to be Republican, but I think on both sides, I think there's a lot of space for us to come together around solutions that make sense for the country. But everybody needs to build that on a basis of truth. And it's not a small task, certainly. Representative Cheney, thank you so much for taking the time. We really appreciate it. Oh, it's great. Great to be with you. Thank you.

The decision to put patriotism over party, the choice to pursue truth rather than stoke tribalism, the commitment to constitutional values at the expense of political popularity. These are priorities and decisions I deeply admire. But so many Americans don't see it that way, including in Wyoming. This August, Representative Cheney is being primaried and polls strongly favor her pro-Trump opponent. But despite what appears to be an uphill battle, she says she still believes she could win.

and that her primary will be, as she's put it, the most important House race in the country in 2022. When asked if she regrets voting for Trump in 2020, Representative Cheney has said yes. And when asked what she would do if Trump is the nominee in 2024, she said that she'll do everything in her power to make sure that doesn't happen. Some have even speculated that she's considering running herself. But I didn't have a chance to ask her about that one. The congresswoman had to go.

to a special committee meeting to investigate the events of January 6, 2021. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the future for Representative Cheney and the GOP will hold. I'll be watching. Thank you so much for listening. We're excited to be back and we are eager to hear from you. Send us your guest requests and any quick questions that you want answered at tips at honestlypod.com. Happy New Year and see you next week.