Bibi Netanyahu: Israel's New Prime Minister. Again.
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I'm Barry Weiss, and this is Honestly. Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much, dear. Dear friends, I thank all of you. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, or Bibi, as he's known to just about everybody, is a polarizing figure.

For some, he's the ultimate defender of the state of Israel. Israel has responded forcefully to these attacks, and we will continue to respond forcefully until the security of our people is reinstated and restored. A man who's been willing to be unpopular to make the choices necessary to safeguard his vulnerable nation. For others, Bibi symbolizes everything that's wrong with 21st century Israel.

The state's rightward turn, and it's never-ending conflict with the Palestinians. Three bloody conflicts with Hamas-led militants in Gaza, Netanyahu making little progress on peace with the Palestinians, more settlements in the West Bank, all helping make Israel an increasingly partisan issue in U.S. politics. Bibi's supporters chanted,

Bibi, king of Israel, at his rallies. While at protests, his enemies call him crime minister. We are here to protest against Netanyahu and his corrupted government. This is our last chance before the election. We want everyone to come and vote to change. Vote to exchange this... Bill Clinton said of Bibi, you should never underestimate him. Barack Obama called him smart, canny, tough, but added, they did not share worldviews, which is kind of an understatement. And Trump...

Trump called Netanyahu, quote, the man that I did more for than any other person I dealt with. And later, infamously, f*** him. But there's one thing that everyone can agree on. Benjamin Netanyahu is the reigning master of Israeli politics. He's an unparalleled leader who's willing to do whatever he thinks it takes to protect the one Jewish state located in the most volatile region of the world.

Millions of Israelis were forced into bomb shelters as missiles rained down on our cities. Several Israelis have been killed. Many more have been wounded. You know and I know no country will tolerate this. Israel will not tolerate this. And despite being ousted from the prime ministership just over a year ago, the balloons were left hanging as Netanyahu waved goodbye from what might have been the final election night. Bibi is back.

An official tally of votes in Israel's parliamentary elections confirmed on Thursday former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's triumphant return to power at the head of a right-wing nationalist and religious alliance. And he's just weeks away from his third stint as Prime Minister of Israel. So why is Benjamin Netanyahu the man that Israelis just can't quit?

And what does it mean for Israel? That he's attempting to form a government with some of the most far-right parties in Israel, parties that until recently were at the very fringes of Israeli politics.

I spoke to Prime Minister Netanyahu on the eve of his return to power and on the occasion of the publication of his book, Bibi, My Story, an autobiography about his evolution from soldier to statesman that illuminates, among other things, where he derives his sense of duty, mission, and sacrifice to the Jewish state and to the Jewish people. We'll be right back.

Hey guys, Josh Hammer here, the host of America on Trial with Josh Hammer, a podcast for the First Podcast Network. Look, there are a lot of shows out there that are explaining the political news cycle, what's happening on the Hill, the this, the that.

There are no other shows that are cutting straight to the point when it comes to the unprecedented lawfare debilitating and affecting the 2024 presidential election. We do all of that every single day right here on America on Trial with Josh Hammer. Subscribe and download your episodes wherever you get your podcasts. It's America on Trial with Josh Hammer. Prime Minister Netanyahu, thank you so much for being here. My pleasure, Barry. It's good to be with you. I want to open this conversation on July 4th, 1976.

On that day nearly 50 years ago, Israel carried out a stunning mission at the Entebbe Airport in Uganda. A week earlier, a few terrorists, four of them, had hijacked a flight of 248 passengers that were headed from Tel Aviv to Paris, and they landed the plane in Entebbe.

And they held the passengers there hostage, separating the Israelis out from everyone else, while demanding the release of 53 Palestinian terrorists, many of whom were hardened murderers in Israeli prisons. Their terms were clear. If Israel refused, the hijackers said, they would promise to kill the Israeli passengers.

After a week of planning, Israel's most elite unit, Sayeret Matkal, carried out a mission to rescue those hostages. And miraculously, almost all of the hostages were rescued alive. The New York Times called it an operation with no precedent in military history. Israel lost one soldier in that operation, a 30-year-old unit commander named Yoni Netanyahu.

Now, I grew up, like so many young Jews, learning the story of Yoni, reading books about him, his letters, visiting his grave at Israel's military cemetery. He was a hero to me and to so many young Jews around the world. But Yoni was also your older brother. And it's hard not to see this moment as your origin story in a way.

Indeed, your new autobiography, that is how you open the book and how you write about it as a catalyst for the rest of your life and everything that would follow. So I wanted to ask you, how did this nightmarish day shape your view of Israel, of the fate of the Jewish people, and of the role that you wanted to play in both of those things?

Well, it changed my life and steered it to its present course. I had no intention of entering political life or even public life. In the course of that day, we heard a newscast which said that Israeli commandos had rescued the hostages, were making their way back to Israel. We were overjoyed, but something marred my joy because the newscast said that one person

officer had been killed. I called my brother Ido and I said, "Is Yoni back?" He said, "No, he's not yet back." I called him a few hours later and asked, "Is he back?" And he said, "No, he's not back, but I sense that something is wrong." And then a few hours later he called me and I said to my wife, "That's Ido to tell me that Yoni had been killed." And that's what Ido told me. And there was this indescribable silence of agony on both sides of the line and the only thing I could think of at that point

was that I didn't want the news to reach my parents through the media. My father was teaching at Cornell University at that time, and I was in Boston, in seven hours of indescribable anguish. I made my way to Ithaca, New York, walked up the path to my parents' house. There was a big glazed window in the front of the house, and I could see my father marching back and forth, his hands clasped behind his back in his typical thoughtful ruminations.

And all of a sudden he looked at me and he saw me and he said, in a look of surprise, he said, "Bibi, what are you doing here?" And he saw my face and he understood immediately and he let out a cry like a wounded animal. And then I heard my mother scream. And believe it or not, that was actually worse than hearing about Yoni's death. It was like a second death. In the week of the Shiva, the mourning period, I had lost my sense of taste.

I didn't know if I could live. I didn't know how I would live. But in the course of the Shiva facing inconsolable grief, two things happened. The first is that people started giving us letters that Yoni had written over the years to them. And we could see that his story came to life through these letters. The first one was written when he was a 17-year-old Israeli teenager in the United States, homesick.

And the last one was written literally days before his fall in Entebbe. And we immediately set about to put these letters into a book, which has endured after 45 years. It's a remarkable document. Herman Wu called it the other side of Anne Frank, two testaments to the human spirit.

And Yoni was a remarkable person. He didn't have to die to become a legend. He was a legend in his lifetime. For those who knew him and those who served under his command, he was a poet warrior who didn't want to be a warrior. He really thought of his life and ultimately his death as a service to the nation to protect the one and only Jewish state because history wouldn't give us another chance.

How did I extricate myself from this? I said that two things had gotten me out of this impossible abyss. The other one was that Yoni never believed that he was just fighting terrorism militarily. He thought it was a civilizational battle between barbarians and the forces of freedom and human rights. And I thought that we had to

mobilize the free world to adopt a different attitude towards terrorists, a different moral attitude to puncture their various lies that they were fighting for human rights while they were trampling them and blowing up babies, to fight against the terrorist states that stood behind them because international terrorism without terrorist states is basically impotent.

And so it took me a few years to do this in an organization that we put together in Yoni's name. That swept me into diplomacy and from there into politics. And there I am, still in the messy bog of politics, to pursue policy. Yoni's death changed my life and made me directed to the purpose that he gave his life to, which was to secure the prosperity, security, and permanence of the one and only Jewish state.

Prime Minister, supporters and critics of yours describe you the same way, which is having a real sense not just of duty, but really of destiny in your service to Israel, in a way that you view yourself as the leader that can save the Jewish state and therefore the Jewish people. And there's a line in the introduction to your book where you talk about how you wish to be remembered. It's a simple and short line. You say that I help secure the life of the Jewish state and its future.

But the whole idea behind Zionism, the political movement for self-determination, Jews being able to live in their own land, not dependent on anyone else, able to protect themselves, is that the Jews no longer needed to be saved. So who do you see Israel right now as needing to be saved from? And do you imagine a day ever where Israel or the Jewish people will ever need to not be saved? I think life is a constant battle.

And the life of nations is no different. Nations come and nations go. Civilizations rise and civilizations fall. The Jewish people have broken the so-called iron laws of history. You know, there was a

There was a great Italian philosopher who said that all nations rise in the 16th century, actually. He said that all nations are born, they flower, then they wilt, and then they die. And you can't escape it. Well, the Jewish people have escaped that. We died a hundred deaths and we come back to life. The Jews are the ever-dying people. Well, we decided to stop dying. And the birth of Zionism said that the way to...

rescue the Jewish people from the final death, which our modern Moses Theodor Herzl saw very clearly 120 years ago. He said we'd be destroyed. If we don't have a way to save the Jews from the fires of violent anti-Semitism, we would die.

and we would be erased. My father, 33 years after Herzl, said in 1933, he was all of 23 years old, he said we are facing a Holocaust, that's his word, the Holocaust of Hitlerism, which would destroy the Jewish people and the only way to save the Jewish people, save the Jewish future, was to have a Jewish state which would be a haven for the millions that would otherwise be trapped in Europe.

So he devoted his life before my brother fell in on Tebbe to found the Jewish state. But once it was founded, it was still going to be challenged because Israel is one country that is openly targeted for destruction. First by the Arab world, which happily has changed, and I'm glad I had a certain part in that, but also now by non-Arab Iran, which openly declares its goal of annihilating the state of Israel off the face of the earth.

If you look at it, what has changed in Jewish history with the rise of Israel?

It's not that the forces that wish to annihilate us have been eliminated. They keep rising, falling, changing shape and so on, and identity. It's that we can fight them, that we can defend ourselves finally against these forces in ways that were unimaginable a century ago. If you said a century ago that the Jewish state would be considered the eighth power in the world and that we would have an army almost second to none, it would be

sometimes in prowess and certainly in sophistication, people would have laughed. Jewish soldiers, a Jewish army. When Herzl suggested this, people thought him crazy. But he wasn't crazy. He was a visionary. And it's left for our generation, for my generation, to secure that future. And you ask, will it be continuous? And the answer is yes, unless you reach the end of days and the coming of the Messiah, which

I'm not sure it's going to happen next Wednesday. Let's get into politics. I'm talking to you between meetings where you're forming a coalition government, which doesn't exactly seem like a cakewalk in Israel. But let's go back to the summer of 2021 for a moment when you were ousted for the first time in 12 years.

And people thought you were done, right? Your ouster spawned 10,000 op-eds about how finally change had come to Israel, about how finally there was going to be this so-called unity government, a diverse coalition of misfits that replaced you and the Likud party's 12 years at the helm. That unity government included Yair Lapid, center-left, joined together with Naftali Bennett, center-right, and they were sharing power and working together with the first Arab-Israeli party to ever serve in government.

And yet, despite all of those op-eds, despite all of those sunny takes, here we are a year later. So why did it fail? And why are you back again for a third term? Because it wasn't a unity government. It was a disunity government. In fact, they barred the majority of the Jewish citizens of Israel from the government. And they made an alliance, believe it or not.

with the Islamic Brotherhood, which is banned throughout the Middle East, except in Turkey and Qatar, and basically believes in the dismantling of the Jewish state. To achieve power, they gave power to a party that wants to see the end of the Jewish state as we know it. It's incredible. And who support terrorists openly. That, of course, didn't fit. I think you worked in the New York Times one time, didn't you? Indeed, I did. Well, the joke is sometimes that they write all the news that

Okay. And of course, the fact that I just described didn't fit because this great unity government with the Muslim Brotherhood that basically echo the chants in Iran, death to Israel, death to America, death by political means, sometimes by violent means, that doesn't fit.

wash and in fact that's why it collapsed because it wasn't that it was merely a ragtag of you know of these various parties that were Banded together basically for the purpose of achieving power by itself They had no common thread but the worst thing and this is what eventually brought their downfall was that they made common cause

with a political party and actually political parties who want to see the end of Israel. And ultimately that doesn't wash. So that's why it fell. The reason we came back is because the overwhelming majority of Israelis, and by the way, that includes Arab Israelis too. Quite a few of my supporters are coming from the Arab sector because my government actually helped them in ways that no one ever did before and incorporated them in the Israeli success story.

I think that the reason we came back is because they know that we turned Israel into a global force of innovation. I'll tell you this. Life was better. It was more secure. It was more prosperous. And Israel's stature in the world was much higher. So it wasn't a unity government. It was a disunity government with a Muslim brotherhood.

So that's your rap against the previous coalition. I want to get in a minute to what people are saying your government will look like, which has different kinds of landmines. First, you served as prime minister for those who are unaware of your political history from 1996 to 1999 and then again from 2009 to 2021. That is 15 years of leadership, longer than American law would grant any president.

So what is going to be different this time? What is the vision that you have for this term? And what did you not accomplish in those 15 years in power that you want to accomplish now?

Well, the first thing is what is the mission that has guided me? I said that to you at the beginning of our talk. It's to achieve the prosperity, security, and permanence of the state of Israel. And for that, my belief was Israel has to be very powerful. It's not enough to be moral. It's not enough to be just. It's not enough to be liked. It doesn't even make a difference. If you're weak, you don't survive in our area. And by the way, beyond our area, you can see that. You could be devoured by aggressive forces,

that gobble up nations or that conquer them or destroy them. So for Israel to be strong, the thing that guided me was, okay, everybody agreed what you need for Israel to be strong. You need a strong army. There is one problem with that conception, okay, which Ben-Gurion, the first great prime minister of Israel, believed we needed an army. He helped found the Israeli army without which we wouldn't be here. He also declared the state, another act of tremendous leadership.

At the time when people opposed that but once we had the army, you know our neighbors also had armies and they got stronger and we got stronger except that we would need F-35s we would need submarines. We need drones. We need cyber. We need intelligence and these things all have one characteristic They cost money a lot of money. How are we going to get the money to support our army? So I was a free marketeer by inclination anyway, and

But I became a rabid free marketeer in my terms as prime minister and especially as finance minister because I served in that role as well. I had to create a strong free market economy to sustain the military. So I had to lead a free market revolution and Israel is a different country. It's one that is fundamentally different from the semi-socialist country that I inherited when I came into power.

And I had to turn Israel to a free market economy, which ultimately, by the way, cost me my political...

Everybody can—you say people eulogize me. They eulogize me many times, especially after I conducted these reforms, which basically shrunk me to 10 percent of the Knesset. I was dead. I was politically dead. I've come back from political death. You're like a cat on the streets of Jerusalem. You're going to have like nine more— Many cats. Hey, come on. I nearly died a few times when I was a soldier in a special unit. I was shot at in—

in a rescue of another airplane before Antebia. I nearly drowned in a firefight in the Suez Canal during the War of Attrition. I nearly ran my Jeep into a phantom jet taking off and

Wasn't put in jail for that. Should have, but wasn't. I faced physical death several times. Nearly froze to death on Mount Hermon on the Syrian side. Coming back from a clandestine operation. Was bitten by a yellow scorpion. You name it. But, you know, people have survived military death.

They've survived political death people have come back from political death once Churchill is a good example. It's hot Caribbean is a good example Then Gurren is a very good example and there are many others you can find in them but how many leaders have come back from political death not once but twice and

And the answer is, in the last 75 years, no one. So I've come back. So the question is, what am I coming back for? Okay, when I followed the vision of making Israel, empowering Israel economically and militarily, I also empowered it by necessity, diplomatically, because people are attracted to the strong.

They're attracted to the strong. The strong can be moral. The strong can be immoral. It's not important. They're attracted to strength. History has really no, contrary to, you know, Martin Luther King said, the arc of history bends towards justice. Yeah, well, it's a brittle arc and it can break under the pounding blows of the worst aggressors and

tyrants of history. So that's not guaranteed. It has to be a strong arc. And to be a strong arc, you have to be continually strong. I made Israel strong, and as a result, I could make peace with Arab countries that nobody believed we could make peace with. We made four peace treaties with four Arab countries. And if you ask, what is my goal now? The first thing is to prevent Iran from annihilating us. Number one, that's simple.

The second is to expand the circle of peace beyond our imagination. Next to Saudi. Saudi Arabia would be a tremendous achievement to have peace with them because it would effectively end the Arab-Israeli conflict, not the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but

Remember the Palestinians are 1% 1 to 2 percent of the Arab world But that's the tail that's wagging the Arab body and I want to I'll get there too But I think that it'll be easier to get there if you add the Arab-Israeli conflict and leave the 1 to 2 percent Although if they're willing to make peace now, I'll make peace with them now, but it has to be a peace We can live with so that's number two and number three is to continue to make Israel a

a light onto the nations, but in the way that we're making it, I mean, it's the quintessential

Innovation nation on earth. You're using your cell phone, half of it is software made in Israel. You're using your Waze satellite guidance thing, that's made in Israel. You're using drugs and cures that are made in Israel. You're desalinating or you're using energy in a different way. A lot of that is made in Israel. And there's much more to do and I have concrete plans on that. If you want, I'll give you the other seven items on my list, but let's end with the three, okay?

Despite your reelection, as you well know, you're a polarizing figure. And one of the things you're often criticized for is being a strongman and that you embrace a vision of strongman politics. What do you say to that criticism?

Well, I am a 19th century Democrat, so I introduced into the Likud, the other parties in Israel are not democratic. Yair Lapid does not have primaries. He appoints whoever he wants, the same Avigdor Lieberman. All the other parties essentially are chosen by their party leader, who's an absolute autocrat. He fires the people, he changes the list, and so on. I put myself up for election every time, every time, and I win.

And through elections that were never contested. No one has ever claimed one bit, you know, any false elections. I'm so studious about it. It's ridiculous. I mean, beyond belief. You can't imagine. And also my party members

are elected by primaries that I installed. 130,000, probably next election will be 150,000 registered Likud voters, they vote. Whoever comes out, comes out. So I believe in democracy not only within my own party, but also in the public. My views of democracy are informed by the basic text of American democracy. I read the Federalist Papers. I'm a Hamiltonian in many ways, but also a Madisonian.

And these two are basically, they set the ground rules. I believe in the, you know, John Locke and Montesquieu are my heroes because I think there has to be checks and balances. You do not have a proper democracy by having self-chosen moral people who are, you know, above the public, above national interest. That's ridiculous. I mean, if you had, if you want to look at an instance in history where you had

exceptional people who are above the plebeians, okay? Then look at the founding fathers of the United States, geniuses one after the other. But if you told them,

The way you're going to secure democracy is by giving the power to the anointed few who will decide for the unwashed many. That's ridiculous. And that's a view of democracy that is penetrating Western democracies and is very, very dangerous. It's not going to sustain themselves. So I'm the opposite of the strongman. I believe in democracies, obviously in the balance between the three branches of government, but also in basic democracy.

Bill of Rights, you know, you can have a majority but you can't decapitate all redheaded people And neither can the courts say that you can decapitate all redheaded people There has to be a balance between the three branches of government that balance has been in many ways impaired in Israel by the rise of Unchecked judicial power and correcting it is not destroying democracy. It's protecting it. I'm very look I'm often portrayed as this boorish

strong man. I'm like a, you know. You're grouped with people like Erdogan in Turkey. I mean, I've read probably a hundred articles that sort of group you with authoritarian leaders. Yeah, that's childish. I always put myself to elections. I never challenged an election. In fact, the idea of Erdogan, Erdogan, look, Erdogan's best friend for a

several years was Barack Obama. They were close buddies. I think that changed after Erdogan threw more journalists in jail and basically turned Turkey into a less than stellar democracy. And now,

Our relations have improved. You used to call me Hitler every six hours. That frequency. Now it's only every 12? No, we actually had a friendly conversation the other day, and I'm very happy with that. I think it's important. Not because I necessarily approve of everything that Erdogan does. You know that I don't.

But just as Barack Obama, you know, had good relations with Turkey, and just as President Biden meets with the leaders of China or the leaders of other countries in our region who are not exactly Luxembourg democracies, that's what foreign policy does. It's a combination of interest and values, and you balance them. But to describe me as this boorish,

anti-democratic strongman when I'm actually, again, a 19th century Democrat with a small d. Don't put me into that bind. I'm that and probably more versed in the basic text of modern democracy than, well, not more. I don't think any of the governing leaders of Western democracies today are

More verse than I am. I'm say equally versus the as the best of them Okay, well, let's turn to the current government that you're trying to put together Israeli politics is all about forming coalitions and we talked about how the last coalition government that was hailed as this unity government you saw as a disunity government that failed quickly because it embraced the United Arab list a party that you describe as a Muslim Brotherhood Party and

So I want to talk about why you think the government that you're currently forming won't be subjected to a similar fate from the opposite side. It's been reported that your new coalition will include two far-right fringe parties that want Israel to annex the West Bank and to expel Israeli Arabs, citizens of Israel, who, quote, don't support Israel.

One of the politicians that you're forming a coalition with is a man called Itamar Ben-Gvir. Ben-Gvir was a member of a political party that the U.S. and Israel both deemed a terrorist organization and was eventually outlawed by Israel.

The Israeli army, which has mandatory military service, would not let this man serve because he had earned such a name for himself for his far-right associations as a teenager. And most alarmingly, this is a man who for many years had hanging in his home a portrait of Baruch Goldstein, the infamous Jewish terrorist who murdered 29 Palestinian Muslim worshippers in 1994 as they were praying in a mosque.

Now, I want to ask you about lines. Do the ends justify the means here? Because I understand from a political realist perspective that you probably can't form a coalition without some of these characters and parties. But you mentioned before that it would be anti-democratic to support someone that says we need to exterminate all redheads. At what point do some of the ideas embraced by some of these people, like Ben-Gavir, who is going to have power in your coalition, get too close to that line or cross it?

Well, first of all, his eligibility to be a Knesset member and a minister was determined by none other than the Supreme Court, and they gave him complete clearance. That has to be understood, and if they didn't, he wouldn't be here. That's the first point. The second point is the policy, the main policy or the overriding policies of the government are determined by the Likud and, frankly, by me. I think I have some...

how shall I say, some more than modest influence on it. I've been prime minister for 15 years, the longest serving prime minister of Israel. Often I was, you know, I heard these,

doom projections, and none of them materialized. I maintained Israel's democratic nature. I maintained Israel's traditions. Israel is not going to be governed by Talmudic law. We're not going to ban LGBT forums. As you know, my view on that is sharply different, to put it mildly. And we're going to remain a country of laws. I, you know, I...

I govern through the principles that I believe in. Now, the Israeli system is different than one in the United States. But even in the United States, you could say, well, the Democratic Party is governed by the radical fringe. No, it's not. It's not. Well, no, but I think that the reason I'm asking you about these parties is not because I'm a fan of purity politics. I'm really not. And I think it's very important that—

when people who have radically different views find a way to work together. I think that's one of the things that's holding America back right now is our inability to do that. I'm asking you as sort of like one of the most powerful, long-lasting statesmen on the world stage, overseeing a country in one of the most hostile neighborhoods in the world, how you think about what is appropriate to compromise in order to hold power for the sake of doing what you think is best for the nation.

How do you balance your principles, which I presume include opposing racism and terrorism, with political realism? Like, that's the question I'm trying to get to. Nobody gets a break for terrorism. If you're a Jew and you commit a terrorist act, you'll be punished and should be punished exactly like anyone else. Nobody cares.

Terrorism is defined, criminality should be defined by the nature of the act, not by the nature of the perpetrator. And I believe that because that's where I come from. My father was a great historian, but also a disciple of Jabotinsky, and he had very clear views about the coexistence between, he called it, between the son of Nazareth, the son of Ishmael, and my own son, which means the Jews, and I believe in that, and fostered equal opportunity, which I think is...

the basis of it's a complement to equal rights. And that's not going to change. It's very strong. And that's where you draw the line internally on that. You draw the line externally on things that

Well, for example, when we fight terrorists who shoot from crowded civilian areas in Gaza, you target the terrorists, but you don't give them immunity because sometimes there's collateral damage. But you try to minimize that, and sometimes, you know, at great cost. So we don't adopt lawlessness. We don't adopt the prohibition of rights to people who deserve it under Israeli law. And Israeli law is not going to change in that regard. It's not going to happen. I'm not going to let it happen.

If I had to draw the lines right now, you'd need another two hours, but that's fine. If you want it, I'll be happy to provide it. I would love to have it, but apparently you have to form a government. Yeah, well, I have a very clear – Barry, I think the main thing is I have a very clear worldview, and people know it, and they respect it. Also remember that we are – it's not merely that we are joining them or they're being joined to us.

It's that we formed the largest party in this coalition. And I'm not about to give up—people said, well, you're going to give up the Defense Department for, you know, one of these smaller parties. And they were very worried about it. And I said, no, it's not going to happen. And they said, well, we're not going to form a government if it doesn't happen. Well, we are forming a government, and it's not going to happen.

As an example, that's a red line that defense is in our hands. And defense is not merely what you think it is. It's not merely preventing incoming missiles. It's also deciding on policies that could be, how shall I tell you, quite inflammatory. And I'm trying to avoid that. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about where Israel sits today.

On the map, Americans polled constantly say that one of the most important issues to them is the border. And our southern border, which is the one people worry about, is with Mexico. Israel shares a border with Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, and Egypt, and is driving distance from Iraq, Libya, and Yemen.

How should an American audience think about the border situation that you face, how big a role it plays in the lives of everyday Israelis, and the reason that you're back in office? Bury Israel, the width of Israel in its greater formation that includes Judea and Samaria is roughly the width of the Washington Beltway. Okay? It's a little more, not much more. So it's a tiny country surrounded by...

what used to be enemies from every side and it could be conquered. It could be sliced in half in a few hours and finished. Miraculously, we were able to defend ourselves with the courage of our soldiers

like my fallen brother and many many others and we've been able to push back our would-be destroyers but the more important thing is we've been able to make peace with them we've been able to make peace with egypt and jordan that was first done by menachem began of the likud with the late egyptian president anwar sadat then by itzhak robin with uh with king hussein of jordan and again for 25 years we could not make peace with any of our other neighbors but as

Iranian power rose and its quest for nuclear weapons surfaced. And as Israel's power rose and our ability to be viewed, we changed the perception of Arab leaders towards Israel. They no longer viewed us as their enemy, but as their ally. I would say their indispensable ally in, one, joining them in fending off the Iranian threat,

which is common to both of us. And the second is a potential source of tremendous innovation, technology and water, energy, you name it, medicine, everything, business. They saw that as something that could better the lives of their citizens. And so for both reasons, we were able to, after a quarter of a century of paralysis, break out into the Arab world. And you have to see this. I mean, hundreds of thousands of Israelis

are flying over the skies of Saudi Arabia to Abu Dhabi and to Bahrain and to Dubai. And Arabs and Israelis are dancing in the streets there. There's, believe it or not, a Cafe Bibi in Dubai, which I intend to visit. In fact, my first trip, I've decided, would be to the United Arab Emirates because that's a signal of my seriousness to expanding the peace.

And so the border situation became good because it became now not a circle of war, but with the exception of Lebanon and Syria, a circle of peace. We have peace with Egypt on our southern border, a de facto non-belligerence with Saudi Arabia on our eastern border, and a real peace with Jordan, no peace with Syria, no peace with Lebanon, both of which are basically supported by Iran. So we still have a way to go. But I think we're getting there.

And once you understand how tiny Israel is, it's...

Basically, I think it's about two-tenths of one percent of America's size. It's a tiny country. It's a size of a little bigger than Rhode Island, surrounded by hundreds of millions of formerly hostile people and now the hostile power of Iran not far away that seeks our annihilation. So obviously, security is uppermost in people's minds. And in Israel, I suppose people vote for me time and time again because they know that

that I'll protect Israel. And I'll tell you something else that they know, Barry. Again, I'm not sure I put this in my book directly, but I'll say it to you directly. They know that I don't squander lives. I've lost a person who was so dear to me and to my parents. I saw what they went through. And I think of the mothers of Israel who lose their fallen sons and daughters. And I'm not an adventurer. I use force when necessary, but I use it judiciously

Because I know the cost of war. I've been through war. I've been through wars and battles and I've lost loved ones. You know, when I was a young soldier in my unit, one of the first things that happened to me was that my close comrade, fellow soldier, died in my arms. He died in my arms on the way to hospital from a mortar shell that exploded in his face. And I didn't see his family. I was in submission. I didn't go to his funeral and I didn't go to the Shiva. 30 years later,

When I was prime minister, I went to see his family. His mother opened the door to me in Beersheba, and she showed me his room. She hadn't changed anything in those 30 years, and her life was forever changed and really destroyed. So I am absolutely committed to protecting my country, but I am not

I'm not gung-ho about it. The decades that I've just finished as prime minister was, by the military's own statistics, the most peaceful in Israel's history.

Internally the same way even though we had an outbreak but fewer people were killed in those years than at any other time in Israel's history. And that's again contrary to the news that doesn't fit so people don't write it. But that's a fact. And the reason that's the case is because people know that I have clear guidelines. I will not allow violence and terrorism to go unpunished.

but I will act against them in a responsible way, firm and responsible way. And I think people appreciate that. You can ask people on the left and people on the right. They agree with that completely.

You write in your book in a meeting with President Trump that then Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Ron Dermer, said this to the president. Peace with the Emirates is a five-foot putt. Peace with the Saudis is a 30-foot putt. And peace with the Palestinians is a hole-in-one through a brick wall. Why? And do you still believe that a two-state solution is possible, yes or no? Look.

for a long time, and this was because I've served for a long time, the absence of peace was due to me. I was the obstacle to peace. You remove me, you remove my insistence that we don't give up the heart of our homeland, Judea and Samaria, that's where the word Jews come from, Judea, that we do not vacate and make it Jew-free, that this was preventing peace. Well,

I was removed from office and in came my successors, Shimon Peres and later Ariel Sharon and El-Domert and El-Barak and so on. And they didn't achieve peace with the Palestinians. And why didn't they achieve peace with the Palestinians?

because the Palestinians don't want peace with Israel. They want peace without Israel. They don't want a peace, a state next to Israel. They want a state instead of Israel. That's the obstacle that has prevented peace for a century. And it's eluded successive administrations in the U.S. and also successive intellectuals in Israel. It's an amazing oversight on their part. So if you keep waiting for the Palestinians to make peace, and everybody said you can't get to the Arab world,

You can't make peace with the Arab countries unless you first make peace with the Palestinians. Well, we waited for a quarter of a century and I said that's wrong because the other, the 99% of the Arab world can make peace with Israel because they don't negate the existence of Israel the way the Palestinians do.

I think they will come around when they see that Israel is here to stay. What kind of arrangement can we have in such a confined space, the width of the Washington Beltway? I think that whatever the Palestinians end up with, it'll have to be an entity that is militarily controlled by Israel.

And people will say, hey, Bibi, that's not perfect sovereignty. And I say, right, because if we vacate our military from these areas, they'll be taken over instantaneously by Iran and the radical Muslims. That's what happened in Gaza. Yeah, is that the lesson of the pullout from Gaza? From Gaza and from Lebanon. In both cases, Iran's proxies moved in and we've—

We've sustained roughly 20,000 rockets, 10,000 apiece from each side. And that's what would happen in Judea, Samaria, the West Bank if we walked out. Iran walks in. Hamas walks in. No peace. So the answer is I think we'll get to peace with the Palestinians once they recognize Israel is here to stay. But that peace will have to have Israel in charge of overriding security. And if that's not perfect sovereignty, that's the way you build a realistic peace.

I know we could do three hours on Iran, a country you've mentioned several times in this conversation. The thing I wanted to ask is just developments in Iran over the past two months has been really an uprising among the Iranian people.

Young Iranians, especially young women, have been dying in the streets for daring to defy the mullahs, to express their rejection of the Islamic Republic and their thugs. What should the West be doing right now to support the brave people of Iran standing up against their regime?

I would say two things. One, prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons because once they do, then they become immortal. That regime becomes immortal. And you don't want them to achieve immortality because they will threaten our mortality. The second thing is to—and that can be done through crippling sanctions and through a credible military option. That's number one. Number two is something new that you mentioned.

I've followed what is happening in Iran for decades, and something new is happening here. I mean, the fact that these extraordinarily brave Iranian women and men are challenging the regime is absolutely amazing because they're killing them. You have to understand, they're killing them all the time. And we only get a trickle of information. The true news. Yeah. I mean, they're killing them. But they're very brave. That tells me that this regime is very fragile.

Now, what is it that we can do about that? That, even you, Barry, will forgive me if I leave that to my conversation with several leaders, beginning with President Biden, my friend of 40 years. I want to talk about China for one question, another place this morning where we're seeing massive protests against the very, very draconian CCP COVID policies.

China right now is building the Tel Aviv light rail and it operates one of Israel's major shipping ports in Haifa, among other infrastructure projects. Now, you've not just been willing but enthusiastic in your partnership on these issues. So I wonder what the calculus here is because it seems to me that the logic goes something like this.

In a world where America is sort of receding from its role as the world's policeman, Israel needs to be smart and look ahead and look around the bend and find other allies, even imperfect ones. Is that the logic? Yeah, up to a point. I have to say that I think America is this indispensable ally.

And I think America, the rise of America, made all the difference in Jewish history. It's not merely the rise of Israel. In the first half of the 20th century, America was not the leading power in the world, and not by accident you had the Holocaust happening there. In the second half of the 20th century, correlating the rise of Israel, America did become the leader of the world, and it protected liberty, it protected democracy, it protected human rights. And it would be a tragedy if the United States abandons its role

and stops believing in its mission to be the beacon of liberty in the world. But do you, as the prime minister of Israel, need to prepare for that possible eventuality? And is that why Israel is creating these deep relationships, not just with China, but with India and other nations as well? Well, I would say that all countries need alliances.

Superpowers need alliances. So certainly a small country, a tiny country like Israel, powerful, powerful as it is, we still need alliances. So yes, I try to build alliances, but there's a limit to those alliances. Number one, there's a fundamental change, a fundamental difference in the alliances that we build with sister democracies. Because in sister democracies, we share

Common values are not only common interests and with the United States in particular. There is a deep bond I mean, it's really a deep bond. It's not just something I'm saying just a figure of speech. There is a deep bond We are the original Jerusalem America is the new Jerusalem The new promised land and where the original promised land there's a deep bond there and the same is true to a lesser extent with other Western democracies, however critical I am occasionally of their

vacillating positions, but I think that common bond is important. Nations go beyond their comfort zone to other places, but you have to recognize that one of the things that we saw in COVID

As you saw what happens to your supply chain, we recognize that all of a sudden the supply chain can be something that is also protected by like-minded states. And I think that there's a limit to how much we can open ourselves up to being dependent on

on non-like-minded states. And I think we're all drawing the lessons from that. Yes, I openly and enthusiastically opened Israel up for trade with China and economic enterprises with China. And I suppose I'll continue to do that. But matters of national security are also uppermost in our minds as they are in the minds of others. We'll continue to work with China, but we'll also protect our national interests.

Over the tenure of your political career, we have watched as the typical American supporter of Israel has changed, I would say in a pretty radical way. If 50 years ago that person was someone like my grandparents, American Jews, now the typical supporters of Israel are evangelical Christians. And at the same time as that has happened, it has become, if not a litmus test, the litmus test—

In progressive circles, in order to be perceived as being on the right side of history, you need to oppose Israel. And in certain places, to even say that you're pro-Israel or Zionist is basically akin to committing social suicide. Help me make sense of that change.

How do you understand it? Well, look, the problem is, does America believe in itself? The democracies believe in themselves. They're on the wrong side of Israel supporting Israel. They're on the wrong side of history supporting Israel. You support Hamas. You support the Palestinians who decapitate or shoot in the neck dissenters who hunt gays, who hang them if necessary, who are opposed to women's rights, subjugate women. What is this? This is called pinkwashing, gaywashing.

Are these people gone mad? I mean, it's hard to I'm not saying Israel is a perfect society. There is no perfection in any democracy. But how can one compare that? So I think it's an inversion of reality. It's a collapse into political correctness, which is absurd. I think, by the way, political correctness has its limits. I'm not politically correct. I like to be correct.

I think that's better. And I think you do too. And it's not, I think it has its limits. People think it's a one-way course. It's got to go down, you know, and hit the cliff. And we're all going to jump down the cliff and commit political and national suicide together. That's not going to happen. I mean, you know what happens when people get mugged?

By reality, they change the routine. They modify them. You can say defund the police. Forgive me for saying this because now both parties in the United States are saying we're not going to defund the police because you get mugged by reality. So there are self-correcting things. Israel will probably be further down the line. Probably they're going to run out of things to say when we complete the circle of peace with the Arab world and when Iran is fully exposed. I think one of the interesting things that is happening now is

is that I used to shout against Iran. Oh, and this was a Netanyahu spin, I don't know, to avoid peace in the West Bank and all these other non-entities. I mean, here's a country that threatens to annihilate the six million Jews, now happily the seven, almost eight million Jews of Israel soon.

But that's a spin. It's a Netanyahu spin. Now everybody in Israel shares that goal. But now the true face of Iran has now spread beyond political correctness because now both the left and the right in the Western world

are opposed to Iran. Barry, this is new. This is different. It's the beginning of a potential change. I'm not, I'm never pie in the sky and never look at the world through rose-colored glasses, but I see something different. And when will that bring about ultimately a change in viewing Israel realistically?

Well, I'll take time. But Israel is an amazing country. Come over here. See the open, liberal society that we have. We have the new and the old. We have the most innovative society on earth. We have women in the military as combat soldiers, and we have women fighter pilots and a woman Supreme Court justice. I mean, look, be on the right side of history. Support Israel, for God's sake. And don't support these...

Backward thuggeries. Killers. Get on with it. Get on with the program of liberty, for God's sake. Support Israel. Right now, the World Cup's going on in Qatar, and there have been a river of disturbing video clips in which Israeli fans and journalists are being harassed, being told they're not human. It's our country. You are not welcome here. There's only Palestine. There's no Israel.

Saudi fans were heard yelling in an Israeli reporter, you're not welcome here and there's no Israel, only Palestine. One Israeli reporter was kicked out of his car by a taxi driver who refused to drive an Israeli. Now this is Qatar where you can go to jail for three years for being gay.

What's changing and what's scaring many American Jews that I know is that those kind of sentiments, often framed slightly more subtly, are being expressed here in America, the country that was supposed to be the new Jerusalem, that was supposed to be exceptional for the Jewish people. Many American Jews I know are privately asking questions like, should I wear my kippah, my yarmulke in public? Should I take down the mezuzah from my door? Should I make sure my passport is up to date?

Every single dinner I am at with other Jews, there is a joke about making Aliyah about moving to Israel. What do you say to those American Jews who are questioning America's exceptional relationship with them as Jews? And do you notice the rising tide of anti-Semitism here in the United States, a country where you were in part raised and have spent much of your life?

Yeah, well, first let me say that the sentiments that are changing in the Arab world is not the rabid anti-Israeli and anti-Semitism sentiments that you see. It's, in fact, the pro-Israeli. You know, when the Saudi team defeated Argentina, I called my Likud branch in Saudi Arabia. I have their...

A friend, Muhammad Saud, who openly on the internet, you know he's not doing that without the approval of the authorities, supports his, speaks Hebrew to me. I congratulated him. And this was seen by millions. So that's a change. But yeah, you have the persistent things, especially in Qatar. But what of rising anti-Semitism here in America? Well, let me say that anti-Semitism is the oldest hatred. It's not going to disappear quickly.

Every time somebody has a grudge, you can blame the Jews. The capitalists say the Jews are communists. The communists say the Jews are capitalists. I have a problem? Blame the Jews. What is the solution to that? The first is not to cow before these absurd charges, but stand up to them and speak up against them. Don't be frightened.

Stand up. You have a right to be proud Jews, to be proud American Jews, and don't sacrifice that right. You will not achieve anything by cowering away. That's the first thing I say. Now, I say that because the state of Israel essentially is the embodiment of that sentiment.

I mean, individually, each Jew has to decide about their own decision, where they want to live, how they want to live. I would suggest to you that there are enough forces in America that respect the tremendous contribution of Jews to civilization and to American society. And I wouldn't give up the fight. I wouldn't say it's over. I don't think it's over at all. But I also say that Israel is here always with the welcome ours, but that's an individual decision that people will make as a country.

As a nation, we offered the Jewish people a big change that no longer would we kowtow before our tormentors, no longer would we be defenseless, and we will not be defenseless in two ways: physically,

but also morally. We would stand up to them. I did that in the United Nations. I've done that elsewhere. And I suggest that every person stand up for your rights, stand up for the right to be Jewish, proud Jews, and stand up for Israel. Okay, one more question about anti-Semitism. Last week, Donald Trump had dinner at Mar-a-Lago, his home, with Kanye West and a Holocaust denier named Nick Fuentes.

Now, Trump has claimed he doesn't know who Nick Fuentes is, but he certainly knows who Kanye is, who has spent the past many weeks on an anti-Semitic tear. What do you think of Trump's decision to have dinner with Kanye and Fuentes?

Well, first, I condemned Kanye West's anti-Semitic statements straight away. I thought that was just wrong and misplaced. And I think that that's what I would say about President Trump's decision to dine with this person. I think it's wrong and misplaced. I think it's a mistake.

He shouldn't do that. He has been a tremendous supporter of Israel and I'm unabashedly appreciative of what he did for Israel. He did great things for Israel in recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital long overdue given that it happened 3,000 years ago under King David. He moved the American embassy there. He recognized our sovereignty on the Golan Heights from which we were attacked for 19 years by Syria.

He got out of this dangerous Iran deal. And I appreciate all that. It doesn't take away from also, you know, he's been very supportive of the Jewish people. So I think he made a mistake. I hope I hope it's not repeated. That's all I can tell you. One more break and then a short lightning round with the prime minister of Israel, including what he really thinks of the American presidents that he worked with. We'll be right back. Bibi Netanyahu, a quick lightning round. Who's your political hero? Theodor Herzl.

Who's your biblical hero? King Saul. He was tragic. What is the best investment you've ever made? My wife, my kids, my country. My country. I chose to live here. Where can you get the best hummus in Israel? I refuse to answer that because it would get me into enormous, enormous problems. I'm a politician, for God's sake. You can't ask me that. One adjective to describe the following people. Donald Trump is... Irreverent.

Barack Obama is? Very, very intellectual. Bill Clinton is? Just charming. The favorite Secretary of State you worked with? Well, the two Secretaries of State that made a tremendous impression on me are George Shultz, a great American, and Mike Pompeo, a great American. Do Israelis have more in common with Arabs or American Jews?

It depends. It depends on the American Jews, depends on the Arabs. But ultimately, American Jews. Some Arabs, some Arabs. On the Middle East, many Arabs. On deep-set values, definitely American Jews. Do you believe that the Jewish people are chosen? Yes, in the sense that we have brought to the world the idea of morality. It's really, if you look at modern civilization, it came from Jerusalem.

And in that sense, we have, I don't know if, you know, it's a question of destiny. You asked, is there destiny? I don't know. And I describe this in my book. I don't know how to explain the events that propelled me into my present life because if my brother hadn't died, if he hadn't persuaded me

to replace me first as an officer in my unit and then I joined him. And if he had not died in Entebbe, I doubt very much I would be sitting here speaking to you. So you don't know how fate works. But once you're propelled into a certain direction, then you do your best to carry out a life of purpose. And my life definitely has a purpose. It's to protect the one and only Jewish state and assure its future. And I would urge people who read this book

This is an unadulterated plug, okay, for the book. If you're seeking a life of purpose, which I think is the only life worth living, you might glean valuable insights from reading my story, which might help your story. Final question. Israel's about to celebrate its 75th anniversary this spring. If you could give a headline to newspapers around the world about how to describe Israel's achievements over the past 75 years, what would it be?

Miraculous. Prime Minister Netanyahu, I know you need to go and form a coalition government. I really appreciate you making the time. Thank you so much. You just destroyed one of my coalition partners by that. We'll make it up later. Thank you. Thank you.

My thanks to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for joining me. His new book is called Bibi, My Story, and it chronicles many of the stories we talked about today and much more. And my thanks to you as always for listening. If you like this conversation, share it with your friends and family. And if you didn't, you should still share it and use it as a tool to have your own debate about the future of Israel and its vital relationship with the United States. Last, if you want to support Honestly, there's one way to do that.

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