Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
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Walk the search engine. M, P, J. vote. No question too big. No question too small. Today, if we've on our jobs correctly, and who knows, we've hopefully succeed you in the paying attention to a story about a hundred ten years of american tax policy, let's find out.

So september twenty, twenty, Jessie ising, er, a senior editor and reporter at have gotten this league of internal documents from an anonymous source the tax returns of thousands of the wealthiest americans dating back over fifteen years. In those leaked tax returns, Jessie and the team at republica could see proof of this manuvre, a manuvre that some academics and economists had suspected was now being deployed by the country's s wealth est. What did the documents help you understand that .

you hadn't understood before? Well, I mean, me, non tax reporter, non tax expert IT was all extraordinary regulatory, but even tax experts didn't understand this fully. So you I think there's a general lay understanding at the wealthy avoid taxes.

And that's the kind of I role thing that you would hear in a bar if you are talking about these stories and someone drinking next to you. But they didn't know that jeff bezos and mask and bloomberg and carl icon and your sour literally pay zero in federal income tax. And in recent years, they didn't know that jeff bezos got a child tax credit because this income was so low. Experts understood that in the abstract, and no one understood that in the specific until we prove IT because we had the specific numbers in the names.

So let's get into the actual specifics in this epo de, we're going to dig into how IT is that some billions and a paying zero dollars in federal income tax. Chapter one, one weird trick. I am just need to walk me through step by step how the track works. I gave him jeff bazas as my hypothetical billionaire who might want to not pay his federal income taxes.

So let me tell you, like my dumb, dumb view of what java is life looks like my dum dumb view of japan is like working out every he works out a lot, a lot of picture partner and then every two weeks his phone buses and its his chase bank account and IT says that his payroll positive is in and that amazon that com like pay them I don't know jeff, ten million dollars a year so he gets like almost two hundred thousand dollars a week. So every two weeks he gets like four hundred thousand dollars they take out like, you know, all the the government takes out after taxes he gets like two hundred thousand hours goes into his checking count. That's not what happens. What happens instead?

no. So what happens is instead is he gets a small paycheck. You know a lot of these guys get one dollar salaries yeah and you know Steve jobs are a popular ized that but the google guys, Larry patients through gay brand, they get one dollar, but it's very popular.

And if you ve got one dollar divided by fifty two, you're not paying a lot in taxes. And so what's happening with those guys is they're not really getting that kind of weekly paycheck or they're getting very modest amounts of money. So there's .

nothing to tax intern with .

nothing to tax in terms of wages, are keeping their wages low and is keeping their wages low. Wages are highly tex. Their texts about forty percent the top marginal texture and thirty seven percent plus about three percent for payable taxes.

And so you don't want wages. It's stupid if you're really wealthy person to get wages. So instead, what you're doing is you're getting money through gains on your asset.

So obviously, anyone who is not taking income is not going to pay income tax, but most people need some form of income to live. What has ultra rich people part is that they typically owe at least one very expensive asset, for instance, a business they made or inherit. And there's actually a way to make money of that asset without that money being taxed as income.

And so what bezos is very easy to think about what basis is doing, which is that most of his wealth is tied up in amazon stock. And so amazon stock goes up several billion dollars a year typically, or has for a long time. And then if bezos needed cash, he could sell some of that stock. And then we get cash and .

then have to pay taxes on that.

And then if he sold that stock, then you would have to pay taxes on, you are not paying thirty seven percent, you're only paying twenty percent on that because that's what capital gains taxes. But why pay twenty percent? So what you want to do instead is borrow against that money.

So he goes the bank and he says, like, hi jeff, because you may have heard me, I only make one dollar a year, but I do happen on a lot of amazon star. Yes, I want you to just give me alone and the collateral will be my amazon star.

yes. So I don't actually know if basis specifically does this, but Larry ellison, we know, does this. He's the billionaire from oracle, one of the richest people, the world, and a guy named elon.

He's .

literally borrowed against the stock to the tune of tens, billions of dollars.

Every person whose tax information was described in republican reporting was asked to comment jeff basics raps to kind as the Larry ellis's raps. Mask responded to prove public's email loan question mark. After a republic have responded with detailed questions, he did not reply OK. So elon mask pays himself something like a dollar a year. Even they works like eight companies.

So we think and when he wants money, he goes to the bank and he says, hi he on musk e every room in twitter, you guys are gona give me a loan and the clatter, or for the loan is going to be my tesla sock presently. Yeah, exactly. And then you don't get text on a lot.

You don't get text .

on borrowings. But so then he, they give him like a lot .

of money. He like media's land.

But then what do you do?

You have to pay loans back. No.

no, wrong.

Why there's so nave I .

am yeah in a lot of ways.

So you basically borrow at almost no cost yeah because they know that the stock is there and they can call IT at any time. Yeah and you essentially never really have to pay back these states gonna pay when you die.

Which ez saying is that billionaire, instead of funding their lifestyles with salaries or by selling some of their valuable assets, billionaire can just borrow money against their assets at extremely low interest rates, available only to them those rates factory with the market.

But according to bloomberg, billionaire in the past been able to borrow money at less than one percent interest, money that is completely on, and they can then use that money to buy whatever they want, islands, basketball teams, social media companies. The government will tax billion or assets when the billionaire dies through estate taxes, although you won't be sure to know that the ultra, thy are pretty good at working around to the estate tax as well. A U.

S, A professor in ed emc. Carey coined the phrase for us by borrow die, which selling a confusing bumper secker. But by borrow die is a tactic that people like elon mask are employee avoiding paychecks living off of borrowed money doing is credit score that is higher low because is a lot of debt.

He's got a lot of debt, and they were a little worried about. At some point though, the reason we know this is that his lawyers forced him to disclose IT in the S. C.

C filings. That's why we also know about Larry ellison. Yeah so you can see everybody's borrowing. So you don't know how much jeff bazas is actually borrowing if he's borrowing at all, but this is extremely common technique for alter .

wealthy people. So that is the one weird trick billionaire have come up with to not pay income access, don't have income or have as little income as possible. IT won't really work for me and won't really work for you unless you're billionaire.

If you are a millionaire and you're listening to searching. And I do want to say we can actually use help funding the show. And I am really sorry that Jessie was so rude about you and your friends actually barely know him.

I have to think you guys are great and very proud of your ability to allocate capital efficiently anyway, whether I right the looper, what if we wanted to close that? What if, instead of relying so much on the large test of the middle house and the merely redge, what if we asked the ultra wealthy to get taxed like the rest of us? After the break, new ideas from unexpected quartiers.

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Welcome back to the show when republic published series about the secret IOS files. Jessie, initially, like the reporting, I hadn't really had the impact you would have hope for. But this past spring, he razed, they had reached at least one influential american.

This is speaker mad and vice president members of congress. My fellow americans .

capture joe biden listening back. Now it's a little strange that this clip is only from march biden, back then still the democratic candidate, and also sounding at the time fairly energetic as he addressed the nation.

not sense president like. And in the civil war, our freedom and democracy been saved at home, as are a day he sited .

electron cma Harris behind him, supporting his Better lines. And later in the speech he, we going to talk about taxes. As a crowd started to respond, you can felt you at a youth crew hard core .

show folks at home. Does anybody really think the tax code is fair? They really think the wealth and big corporations need another two trillion dollar tax break? I sure don't.

But then I then went from this very standard fair, you rich ed, pay taxes. Pop, pop and slip in a way more radical idea. I'm going to play the moment he does this, although I will warn you, the radical ness of IT is someone well concealed. But listen, if you will catch IT.

You know, there are one thousand billion ears in america. You know what the average federal taxes for .

those billionaires now?

Making great sacrifice is eight point .

two percent as far .

less than the vast majority of americans play. No billionaire should pay a lower federal tax rates in a teacher of sAnitation ation work for our nerve.

So the radical part is the number that biden just used. He said, the billionaire tax rate is eight point two percent. To be clear, the federal income tax rate for a billionaire is actually almost forty percent.

And ding, not a lot of push back for saying a point from the wall street journal, the washington post, the new, the time of factor or accused of bending the truth. But let me just explain to you how he got that number. The logic biden is using here is the exact same logic that would find in the prop public a series.

Remember that by borough die technique, we know a billionaire ky on mosque does not get a real salary. Instead, he pays him of a dollar and then owns a lot of testers stock in most years. The stock into value, the stock, anything into value that you then don't sell, we call that gain and unrealized gain.

An unrealized gain is any time something you becomes more valuable. But you hold on to IT. My unsold eric lander rocky card that is somewhere in my parents house is an unrealized me.

In theory, IT was more money than when I bought IT, but i'm not benefiting from that game right now. I'm not. But we now know someone like elon mask can billion's like him, are constantly borrowing against their unrealized gains, job yan is saying, which comes to these billionaire. We should treat that gain in value as if it's real money in their pocket that should be taxed. And that, believe that or not, is an extremely, extremely controversial idea.

It's a religious tenant among tax accountants and lawyers that you cannot tax unrealized. And so people are very offended by the .

notion we need. People are offended by the notion, like of all the third rail in american culture, taxing unrealized games was like a spicy topic that proper lick was afraid to poke.

It's a very, very spicy topic in tax circles. This is as spicy as you get.

Jesse is quick to point out that text textbooks across the country do consider unrealized gains income, but the idea of taxing that income is a lot space here. Jessie and replica got very similar flag to the flag. The joy and received .

people responded to us by saying, you idiots, we don't tax and realize gains in this country and we had to say, you know, I I responded to one hundred and fifty emails from readers saying, yeah, that's the point of the article is that we we have a choice uh, about what to tax and we're not taxing this. And that's why billionaires are able to live outside of our tax system. Our government.

since its inception, has been in this push and pull with a very wealthy. The government typically tries to get them pay more. They mostly try to pay less.

Sometimes this push and pull is so strong that actually changes the nature of wealth. Changes in tim, is the structure of our economy. So what if right now you want to bring more billionaire more firmly into a tax system? There's a few possible solutions.

Solutions one, the one, Jessie is getting something crap for pointing to is just make a law that would let the government tax unrealized gains. There's a bill that would do this. It's based on violence proposal is called a billionaire imus income tax act. Here's by playing IT out here.

Make a billion box. great. Just pay your first share, pay a little bit a firefighter and a teacher, pay more than double, double the tax rate a billionaire s that's not right. That's not fair.

Like he's trying to whisper directly into the troubled mind of iron mask this billionaire imam. Income tax IT would actually apply not just a billionaire, but any american whose network exceeds one hundred million dollars, meaning ninety nine point nine nine percent of americans would .

be unaffected by the place on the top one hundred ds of one percent. One hundred and one percent of the americans will pay this tax. The billionaire 的 mum tax is fair， and IT raises three hundred and sixty billion dollars that can be used to lower costs for families and cut the deficit.

After jail by the letter race, common Harris adopted his same plan. Here he is on sixty minutes and our long television show, discussing IT.

I'm gonna sure that the richest among us who can afford to pay their fair share and taxes IT, is not right. That teachers and nurses and firefighters are paying a high, higher tax rate, then billionaire and the biggest corporations. And I plan on making that fair.

It's very easy for most of us to get on board with the plan like this, more money for roads, no skin off our backs. But I wanted to rent, buy a more skeptical expert. okay.

Are you settled? Are you good? Yeah, good. okay. First, I can just say your name in what you do.

Alice and trigger. I'm a singer fellow at the manhattan u and columns at blueberry g opinion.

And is man happened to tending a think tank? Yes.

I like how you put thinking and quotes. Think, think.

Always music. Weird I am like, do IT always think of star wars and the baxi tanks like everyone's put in like sort of amoc lue all day and force to with policy .

ideas yeah you know I do you spend a lot of time thinking um which makes me feel like I don't work that hard because the amount of hours in a day actually doing something like writing or doing things like this is actually minimal but I do think a lot honestly.

that completely lovely. That seems like a great way to spend your entire life. Maybe SHE is said this earlier, but republica reject y works is a non partisan investigative journalism moralization.

But the thrust of their reporting to me leans left the manhattan institute, where elson sits in a tank, and things there are trusts, generally conservative out of romney, not trump. But that means incense. Yeah, maybe it's not surprising that this person from this place is skeptical about an innovative new attacks on the rich. But the thing is also does believe the billionaire to pay more than their pain.

I agree, they should be paying more in taxes OK. I am not against that idea. I just how you structure your tax system is important to me.

In a perfect world, I wouldn't think anyone to pay any tax. But the fact is we do need a functioning government, and we've committed to a lot of things that people are counting on. And we need money. Everyone's going have to pay more taxes, and they have more money so that they should pay more.

So alison agrees on the problem, but he doesn't like the facts at the democrats.

I don't agree with taxing unrealized games. There are credible economists who think differently. This is a conversation we should have. But like I think it's just in practical and the ability to collect a taxi levy is actually very important is important consideration. First of all, it's very hard to tax wealth because it's really hard to put a value month when you tax A A capital gain. And I mean, there's a financial transaction you can observe and you can tax that meaning .

like you can actually say like the stock was worth this on the day about IT IT was this on the day you saw IT. And that was really easy to say what the value was. And you just take the tax rate exactly.

It's like taxing income. You know, you observe your income and then you pay a tax on IT. And this makes collecting IT easier.

But how do you .

measure and unrealized game? So is IT just like december thirty first, the value of your portfolio and then what you pay the tax on April fifth? What do you do if there's a loss? Do they get attacked credit?

After this call with alison, we looked through the biden Harris proposal, all two hundred and fifty six pages of IT, not me. We IT does actually have a specific answers to many of these questions. There's a specific date where you'd measure the unreal game and there's a loss or be a credit.

Just the icon and told me that he spoken to tax experts who say the details in proposal actually seem quite thought through. I do take alison's point that the ease of collection attacks matters. And I also moved by this idea as he has, that a new tax could be distorted, meaning taxing something we never tax before could have social consequences beyond what we imagine, some of which we might not like. Alson does have some mother competing ideas for ways to get more attached revenue from the wealthy, which brings us to solution too, get rid of, step up in basis.

which is when you buy an asset, when you sell IT, you pay tax based on what the Price was when you bought IT. This is what you you saw. IT, yeah. But if you die and leave that to your ears, it's not based on when you bought IT.

Step up in basis, god went. Did this party has told in the weeds step up in basis? Basis is another way that a wealthy person can give an asset to their kids, and in doing so, avoid a lot of taxes alone. Explained how that tax move works right now. Supose.

you start a companies post your jeff BIOS and you kept amazon private and he died tomorrow yeah and he left this private company to his children. Or even if IT was public and they saw all their shares, they wouldn't pay a .

cabal of against tax on IT rather than paying the difference between what amazon was worth when jeff has started at and what IT was worth, the data they sold IT. They would take the difference between what amazonas were the day they inherited IT from jeff faces and the day they saw that would would be a much, much smaller taxable wind over the government .

yeah and that actually a distortion that does encourage people to never sell their assets because is Better to solve IT your eyes.

So that is one way you're like, okay, if you wanted to find a way to capture more tax revenue from the very wealthy, you would do this. And one of the reasons, I assuming you like this plan Better is because IT feels easier to collect.

easier to measure exactly.

Alison also proposed a third solution, eliminating the Carried interest flu pole. That's essentially a looper that allows private equity executives to avoid income tax. Almost of they are taken by if you don't like this fix and don't work in private equity, please send me email.

I have loves no more. But closing both of these loopholes seems like a pretty good start. The Harris campaign supports both of these changes, but also pointed out that when push comes to shove, the politics here are actually kind of tRicky.

Set up in basis is something economists love to talk about getting rid of. But you know, you always get like the farmer who has the family farm, right, and he leaves the family farm to his kids and always have this huge tax bill. That's very compelling.

People who are in economies, I S my question else that there's not a lot of political momentum hind eliminating, how do you think we solve the problem? Realistic need to collect more tax over um I have .

no idea because I don't see any political will. I think everyone is looking for we can just take this money from rich people but the factors were probably organic, the pain taxes.

And why is that? Why can we just take more money for the people?

They don't have enough money, but if they go about money, but none have to prefer our debt and functioning and moving forward.

So you think everyone's going to have to pay more, but that that's a conversation that's politically a bit of loser.

Yeah, you know, no one really wants to .

hear that raise the taxes, not just on billionaire, but also nurses, teachers, firefighters, even pag gesture. You can imagine this idea tanking a presidential campaign, but between Jessie analyst, you can at least hear the range between the left in the center on how to fixed the billionaire of the tax problem. The center of things.

We can solve this problem mainly by causing loopholes. As you move left, you find people who think the problem here is bigger, requiring more drastic solutions. I can be persuaded that taxing unrealized gains might be risk y or too complicated, but the notion that we need to do some interested here, I still find persuasive.

And I partly find IT persuasive, because I now know we've done the drastic thing before, the story that history in mali, michel Moore, told about creating the federal income tax in one thousand nine hundred days, about F. D. R.

In that story, I hear us creating our modern country by getting everyone to pony up for IT. And for several decades after our wealthy has really did pay extraordinary high marginal tax rates as high as ninety four percent, we had a country we all paid for. And the consensus was that that was the patriotic thing to do, taxes, Price of citizenship, that belief, decade over time.

You can see that decade at its worst. Actually, in twenty sixteen, during one of Henry content and downe trumps debates, there's this famous moment where Henry clinton accused down trump of tax avoidance, saying that some years the self percent billionaire paid zero dollars in federal taxes. And trump propose, as if it's obvious that makes me smart, this idea that paying taxes to the federal government is for suckers expressed by a candidate for president of all trumps scandals, his tax avoidance and his refusal to release his tax returns, to me, did not seem like the largest.

But they did bother. One person bothered him a lot. A former contractor at the irs who would go back to that job expressing to try to leak the president's tax returns and later on decide while he was there to go ahead and leak a lot more eventually to a reporter name Justin icing.

After the break, our final chapter in this tax saa, we return to the person we started with the whistle blower.

Employee, the whistle blower, back in twenty twenty, when Jessie had forgotten a signal message from an unknown person, he hadn't known who they really were. He guesses about their personality and motives, but this is mostly his imagination. And then last fall, just here, the news, the whistle lover had been caught and charged with federal crimes after a two year investigation.

The suspect has been charged with leaking tax returns of wealthy taxpayer s. Charles s. Little john, a. Watching ton D, C.

Faces after five years in, after being charged with unauthorized disclosures of tax information, including financial records from then president Donald trump, as well as the leak of tax information on other public figures such as jeff baths on must to the news outlet prop the whistle blower to not to be amen names Charles little john in some of the news clipsed you can see him Brown hair slam. He looks like a lot of professional Young men. You might pass on the street in dc a consultation who'd worked booz Allen hamilton.

Booz Allen had a big contract with irs. He'd been at the agency for two separate stance, collectively amounting to several years. Little john was arrested because investigators at the irs were able to link his account to searches made in the IOS database.

They had him any pleaded guilty. Journalism can be a good tool for understanding strangers. IT works internally well. The legal system is another tool processing out a human motive.

There is no trial here since little john pleated guilty, but in the sentencing, government prosecutors and little john's defense attorneys offered competing visions of the man. The porter that emerges surprised me in sunrise. In the prosecution memo, you don't learn much about little john himself.

The prosecutors described the damage he did to the private lives of seventy five hundred americans who, however we feel about their tax bills, were following the laws. As the written, the prosecution's memo highlight a clear pattern showing little john's actions were premeditated. He's actually worked as a contractor at the irs, left and then specifically returned in twenty seventeen with the goal of leaking tax returns.

IT wasn't an imposible choice, the prosecution says little john believed he was above the law. In the defense memo, his legal team tells a fuller version of his story as a kid and excEllent student, a member of the church at college, un. C, A member of the campus social justice hub.

In the defense version, what Charles little john did was still wrong. This is a guilty play. After all, they explain how he was partly inspired by this book about wealthy tax avoidance, called the triumph of injustice, which lays out in part the story you ve heard in these episodes.

But they also explained that a formative experience for Charles chaz, they call him, was the death of his sister. SHE was a senior in high school when he was diagnosed with the chema. SHE died in two thousand thirteen, only nine, nine years old.

He moved back home after that help with his parents. Later on, he donated bone miro in tea cells to a person he didn't know from a donor alist. The defense, I think, is trying to establish a pattern in little john's character that he's a person who, when he experiences in injustice, will go to greater than Normal length to appear IT, even if that means self sacrifice.

In the time proceeding, little john's choice to go back to irs and lead these documents. A close family friend had died, and in a little john's diary, which they quote from, he writes, life is so fragile and short, grieving for the years, you will not see the friends and family that will Carry her loss for the rest of their days. We should all travel of our lives as if we will die tomorrow.

The next week. He contacts, just icing her. He sends him the USB drive filled with the tax returns of america's wealthiest and most powerful people.

The articles are published, and later little john is arrested. Little john spoke for himself in a deposition last spring. Here he been sentenced.

This deposition was part of a separate lawsuit against iris about these legs. The person who comes across this is not who I was expecting. He describes his time at the irs as time at a job he really cared about.

He sounds proud as he explains the details of this anti fraud program he built that could detect scammer sending in fake returns and ceiling refunds. He says they stopped a million of these cases. With his facts, he describes reaching out to the new york times, then decreases reaching out to Jessie.

He says he asked Jessie for his addressed in the U. S. B. Key, and that Jessie gave this stranger his address, but joke that little john wasn't like to show at his house and murder him, which sounds a lot like the Jessie.

Now, one of the stranger details in the deposition, and little john repays how all the data he leaked, he made another copy of IT, this one for the government, for when he got caught. So the irs would know which taxpayers reach out to. They would never guess little john, in my view, behavior, a person who seem to know he likely be caught, who expected to face consequences in the deposition.

He says the thing the government got wrong about him is that he never thought he was about the law. This january, a judge decided that little john will turn forty in prison. It's a five year sentence. Jesse icing says that that is unusually heavy for a case like this.

It's the longest sentence, I believe, for anyone who did not leak classified information. Um yes, he did break the law and it's up to society to punish people who break the law. But understanding what he did and how that was a public service is very important. We use this information to publish many, many stories in the public interest. So I think what he did was a huge service, the american public, to reveal things that would not have been revealed otherwise um he took a great risk and I was gone to pay an enormous Price.

What was mom for you that you knew the identity like did did you find out that Charles little journalist, the person on the other end of your correspondence? Ts, when he was arrested, you find out before .

that found you, not when he was arrested, but when I first hit the public, is arrangement or something like that? We never knew who IT was before that.

And had you wondered about who he was like, how do you, of course, what how?

What did you thought when you wondered? Well, I wondered if I ever gonna and if I do, can that circumstances anything but terrible news?

And did you when you got more information about who he was, like, did that did IT fit with the person that you'd imagined .

in your mind? Yeah, IT wasn't surprising. Relatively Young, someone who had principles. I mean, i'm taking what they've attested to under the threat of perjury as true. And IT rings true. What little john n and his lawyers have said, which is he didn't profit from out, he didn't sell the information, and he was motivated by the desire to do a public service. And I think he did do a public service.

You know, you couldn't describe yourself as a funny mix of someone who is like someone said, a american democracy is first estate but also the work you do and the way you do IT it's ideas say it's like you get one hundred messages from people who are can I and you read other messages and you respond to some of them like at the end of this story, what does he do for you as an optimist? And what does he do for you as a pessimist?

Well, so you talk about these billionaire ying that they're at victims of this. And at the beginning, a couple of them felt like they had to respond to our questions about this and have some justification for how they avoided taxes or what they did their techniques. And by the end, you know we did bat fifty stories.

By the end, we were almost entirely blown off. Um so we would send our fifty questions to the subject of a story and hear nothing back, no response. And the reason I ended up concluding was that they feel they're untouchable in american society and they're right. We didn't touch them in a hall. We exposed the greatest injustice about american inequality in decades, and nothing happened.

And why do you think? Because I think people do care about inequality. I think people do.

If someone ran for president, they were like, my big policy is the billionaire aren't going to paid taxes. I don't think they would win. Like if everybody wanted IT to be different, then why is different .

this the policy say people really want billionaire to pay more taxes. IT pulls very well with republicans even um but billionaire have disruptive power in this county and they have a lot more power than the seventy percent of people who want them to be tax more I mean you know they wield extraordinary amount of influence and power in society and so they can bend public policy to their .

will is a tough fight yeah. So that are the pessimist in you views a story if you can find him. What are the optimists in you?

A rare, rare motion for me. Um you know we go back to coral hall. And hundred years ago there was extraordinary power from the wealthiest people who ever walk the earth, and the government was relatively powered, less at the time.

And somehow coalitions cobble together to reform the system and to start to bring billionaire to heal, not just with taxes, but with the adventure, anti trust enforcement and eventually, security regulation. And so there are ways to karl the power, and bring billionaires, if not to heal, then bring them back into the fold where they have some sense, vic and social responsibility. You also .

think they should be paid a higher.

I wouldn't mind if they got paid the salary. And yes, or let's say they can keep their stock options. We just detect their unrealized gains. How about that?

Jesse issuer is a grumpy idealist. The series he worked on is called the secret irs files. You invited a publica detwiler, and you can find Jessie on signal. Jessie? Thank you. Good luck. Thank you.

Surge engine is a presentation of odessa and jigsaw productions, those created by me, P. G A vote and shouthers panini rust by gaga m. And noa john that checking this week by mary maths theme, original composition and mixing by armed bizarre an the team that worked on the proof publica series includes justice ising or pauker, jeff burnt thousand, Justin elliot, James banger, trish cohan, Robert federici, Alice semi h new endorse burt.

Our executive producers are generates burma and the standard, thanks to the timid ja, alexandre I, rich pro and jungen and to the timid odessa jd. Cri, Robert y. Cox, airton, kate rose, matt casey, more occurred Joseph and Frances curt courtney and hurry shaff.

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